I was employed for a short while by a guy who was adept at destroying cash flow for small businesses. People would be doing well if they were paid for work done, or products supplied, within 6 months, and he could string out the payment process for longer than a year. He never lifted a finger to pay until a written threat of legal action was received, whereupon he would write a cheque and make a deliberate mistake on it; the date, no signature, wrong recipient name, and so on. Then the cheque would be returned sometime later, and he would ignore it, and so the process would continue. He would also look for businesses who were on the edge of bankruptcy, and wait for them to go under, sometimes never paying them for work done. The guy was ruthless, and he knew the law inside out, because he had legal qualifications. There were plenty of other tricks up his sleeves, but I'll not bore you with them here. I left the job at the first convenient opportunity, and never looked back.
As a customer who works in finance too, I would not pay a contracter 50% upfront. I would however have no issue paying 50% on arrival/material delivery, and the balance at switch on.
yes Jordan did a video about a month ago admitting that the quality of installations is poor especially with solar. So I think customers are taking a risk too not knowing if the contractor is going to show up or even do a legit install.
Agree. Gas installer wanted £1500 up front for a £3000 new boiler installation. Said Id pay the 1500 when the boiler was delivered to my home but no, he wanted the money so he didnt get the job. The installer who did get the job only wanted 500 up front and not a one man band.
You would understand once you had been screwed by a scumbag of a customer. Research the contractor & if they have a great reputation then you have nothing to worry about.
I had a plumber work for me. He wanted a lot of money upfront, but I stood firm and agreed a stage payment plan that was in my favour. Luckily I did, as he disappeared, then refused to come back and finish the job. He was a recommendation and had good reviews... Never pay upfront... If someone wants you to pay for materials upfront... pay when they are on your job and you have the receipt
Nobody is gonna work for you if you make them front your materials. That is just retarded. No one who's in trades will take that risk and lose on a ton of money if you change your mind.
This or when they have a receipt for you with your delivery address from a reputable company. For there are only like a couple of suppliers here anyway. So it’s easy to cross reference. And if things check out then pay. Honestly I have not run into issues with multiple renovations. And I pay the day the work is done according to agreements. Contractors having to wait an month can be really difficult for the smaller ones if it’s an larger job.
As a tradesman I insist that the customer doesn’t pay till I finish a job and that the payment in full on completion is proof that they are satisfied with the work. Never ever in 50 years has anyone refused to pay or quibbled on price. Moral is I aim to please and if they’re not happy nor am I. I do not sub contract though.
Thanks for this, we are solar installers in the beautiful Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico, we always take an upfront deposit, as you rightly say, if they will not pay that then they probably will not pay you... we also have the huge advantage that virtually all our clients are referrals, so they already have massive trust in us as people and as a company. Love your content, thanks for sharing!
I used to install CCTV. I always had a 'backdoor' into the system ( when systems were pc based!). One guy bounced a £3k cheque on me. i logged into the system, stopped his camera feeds, and left a message on his home screen. He told me to come and collect a Bankers Cheque, which i did. Job Done !!!
I have one currently Board change. I got a deposit upfront to cover the materials. That was paid immediately upon request. The final balance has didn't get paid. I got excuse after excuse then ignored Went to a small claims, they didn't even respond to it. I then requested a judgement. Won that. Customer (and I use that term very loosely) was ordered to pay immediately. He has ignored that. I believe next week he's getting a visit from a couple of enforcement officers. Fingers crossed 🤞
It depends. Baliffs have less power than sheriffs. If the officers are only baliffs and they fail to collect, I'd suggest transferring to the High Court so that you can get the Sheriffs to go and collect for you. Sheriffs have the power to seize property from the debtor in order to get the debt paid.
@@liveloud9894 If this is in Britain, Australia or NZ, the next step is to transfer to the High Court and get the sheriff's department to handle it. They have more powers than the baliffs do.
Had exactly the same with a roofer/Velux installer. I won’t pay up front now, also don’t ask our customers to do that, unless it’s a very large commercial contract like our last one with £20k of materials, which we requested payment up front. It’s a hard one to balance, we’re still early in trading, only a year and a half in, and although having established a great reputation already, we need to expand and get more work so we can take staff on, and don’t want to be putting smaller customers off by asking for up front payments, when they’ve no experience of working with us before. We’ve been very lucky to date with zero non-payers thankfully…
@@artisanelectrics Maybe there should be an easy form of escrow available? 50% up-front, but can’t be taken by the supplier until the job’s done (or half done). That way both sides have confidence.
As a retired sparks I paid a roofer 50% up front and the balance on completion. The roof leaked and he just ignored me. I got a CCJ against him. In the 90's I had a solicitor refuse to pay but I took him to the small claims court and he was told off by the judge.
People don't understand - bills of this size for work done can put a small "one man band" company like myself OUT OF BUSINESS. I know a plumber from years ago who went out of business because of unpaid bills.
As a self employed welder, I very often suffer with companies that demand 90day terms or presume 90day terms or customers that don't pay on time or have to be hassled. The problem spans across various indsutries and is getting worse. Some businesses have gone bust because some "big customers" don't pay up at all. Times are very difficult for all businesses, no matter the size and scale.
The worst are construction companies. My Dad had a construction cleanup company where they do all the cleanup when construction is done. I am not exaggerating, 75% of companies that book him, screw him over, don't pay or delay, delay, delay beyond 6 months. So he has to cover a huge float for all the employees and material and hope he gets paid. He finally sold the business because it wasn't worth the trouble. He kept his corporate carpet/floor cleaning business and that did not have any of these issues, since most of the work was recurring keeping the floors clean and he knew the companies well. It sucks that there are so many companies out there that screw their subcontractors.
The problem with this stupid terms system, is that it creates a cascading effect. Some company does not pay, can force your company to go bankrupt, but that can trigger other companies behind you to also have liquidity problems... The biggest issue is, if you ask as a company to be paid on time, they simply buy it from your competitor who gives them, 60, 90 ... whatever days. So the companies that are diligent to keep a healthy finance book, will be punished the most. Our industries are always one big customer defaulting away from dominos!!
@@JonDingle Big companies are notorious for it. They can drag things on, and have such legal clout that its not worth taking them to Court. Or you risk putting yourself out of business trying. Look at all the developers getting away with cladding, tells you all you need to know.
Don't work for them. Tell them that you are self-employed to give them the flexibility of not having you on the workforce, but you need to be paid within 30 days otherwise you can't live. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you have to accept their terms.
Industrial sparks here, 90 day terms are part and parcel of this type of business. Unfortunately have to bank roll jobs 🙃. If you speak to your site contact they might be able to negotiate 30 day terms. I’ve managed on a few occasions.
In France it was the regulation that you paid 30% up front 30% half way through the work and 35% at the completion. The remaining 5% was paid after snagging. If the snagging wasn't done the customer keeps the 5%
Twenty five years ago I had a customer that ignored a very small invoice. After several visits he was still holding the money. ( less than £100 ). Eventually I put him through the court. Nothing. When I got the letter back from court to say he had no assets I was in the shop cursing. One customer who had just retired as a Police Inspector said he would like to go and talk to him. He was toying with the idea of debt collection. I didn't want to waste anymore money and he said he was happy to do it for free. When he came back a few days later, he was also cursing. Everything that was in the customers workshop was owned by various relatives. He had no assets. I used to see the ass on school committees and at council meetings. Eventually I cracked. I followed him home one night and then paint strippered the side of his car. A while after he had it resprayed I did the other side. It was never about the money. Pay your debts.
You're a unicorn. 50% is standard in the US for most contracting businesses. I ran a handyman service and only got screwed for money twice. Both were people who had religious symbols on their business cards. They were a $2,000 lesson the hard way.
Im telling you now.....there is such a thing as a professional rogue customer....people who just get loads of stuff done for them with no intention of paying and will wriggle and avoid till you get bored of chasing or concoct some amazing delaying tactics or make up spurious allegations of poor workmanship to either chip the agreed price down or tey to avoid it altogether.......be on your guard I once had a customer go quiet on me for weeks and when i fibally got hold of the husband he said the wife was sorely disappointed in that we have left dusty fingerprints on door handkes and on their new kettle that they said we could use........ Small claims works very well. I dont understand the mindset of these punters who get a good job done but have zero guilt in refusing to pay.
I completely agree for a deposit upfront but when we have arrived on site and before any work is carried out. Ev chargers are a big outlay and the cable and other parts alone cost more than the labour what is being charged in some cases
As ever a great video...some customers are very....eerrr....difficult. Like you, I take great pride in my work and get very annoyed at non payers, fortunately I have only had a couple over the years...yep, small claims court
My son had a similar experience of non payment after an EV installation. After four months, still no payment so my son informed the customer that he would be visiting the property to recover his assets. Two days later payment was received in full
As a tradesman myself (security industry) I charge a 25% deposit. If they have trouble paying that, or take forever and you have to call them 5 times to get the deposit, then I'm on guard. I may still do the job, but I tell them I will call a couple of days before completion for them to pay the balance. If they won't comply I won't do the job. Normal customers who pay the deposit no problem and I get a good vibe I trust to pay the balance after completion.
Same for me as a window cleaner. Poorer areas, payment straight away, cups of tea and a few quid xmas tip. The well of areas, they pay if they feel like it
Not just that, but still relevant. I used to work for a company as a neutral fault engineer. Went to properties whose electrics had a fault and blown up a lot of appliances. The people put in claims for things that were damaged or destroyed. The people that lived in Council houses were excited to get a new Kettle or a Toaster, but guess what, the rich put in 1000s of £'s worth of stuff that didn't even need replacing.
That’s why they have money. Only use someone else’s money when they are on company expenses etc and last to put their hands in the pocket for anything that comes out of their own bank account.
As a customer, i know how bad times are for business. If you cant afford to pay, dont engage them. Example, my oven circuit tripped a few months ago. I can still cook with microwave, toaster oven, slow cooker and portable induction hobs. Ive got other financial priorities and dont need to get the oven working any time soon. My washing machine needed repair, so i got the repairer out to look at it and quote, and up front i checked the call out fee etc to make sure i knew what i was walking into. Unfortunately its been 4 weeks and he hasnt been back to finish the job! 😢
11:43 - WOW (I would be a bit bummed though if I had already paid for this in the past... lol) Would definitely love to join in the very near future - You are an indispensable source of help already.
I've been stung twice by companies that have gone bust and I have some really strong views about it. The Bankruptcy system was brought in to avoid the situation of Victorian debtors prisons and to recognise that sometimes with the best will in the world, a business just doesn't work. Sadly though all too often it is used to screw people over. I've known at least one situation where a group of people run one company into the ground while building another up as a lifeboat, shafting a lot of folks along the way. I strongly believe that the law should change. Anyone who declares bankruptcy and then gets rich should be obliged to go back and pay folks!
At least in Australia, leaving a string of defunct companies which all closed down while owing money is a red flag which can see the director(s) of the previous companies banned from being directors for a number of years. It's also a serious crime to appoint a "puppet" director. The law is specifically structured to stop someone from being able to argue "but I wasn't a director, I only advised the director." I'd be surprised if the law wasn't at least similar in the UK. Part of the problem is that people don't report what they know but instead just give up.
In the past, I've asked _certain customers_ for _full payment_ up-front because of this -- and surprisingly, presumably because they were desperate, they stumped up.
As a customer, If a company wanted 50% up front I would walk away. That gives me alarm bells. I can’t lose hundreds of pounds. I appreciate I would never be able to afford your work as you seem to cater to millionaires but for me if I lost £200 deposit for a job It would take me a long time to save that again.
Maybe there should be an easy form of escrow available? 50% up-front, but can’t be taken by the supplier until the job’s done (or half done). That way both sides have confidence.
Yeah funny people are so shocked at this. Paying up front is completely normal even for goods unless you have a credit account which usually takes a form signed by directors and a credit check - even then it's not guaranteed you'll get credit
I feel for you. I used to run a logistics company and I closed it because I was sick and tired of the number of companies that refused to pay and the amount of time I was spending writing claims forms and having to go to court. It even got to the point where I would refused to deliver the goods until payment was made and had people then turning up to my office and trying to break into my vans and buildings.
Lost 60 grand on a project where they sold the house out from under the project before I could get a lien on it and then went bankrupt. That was real cash, not labor markup
We used to say in our contract that we would sell your debt to a recovery company after 3 months, it was a bikie gang and we would take 10-20% cut to do that but 80% better than nothing
ESCROW should be used more in the UK. Customers give the cost of the job to a solicitor who is allowed to release the money at specific stages, such as when materials need to be purchased, but the materials are bought by the customer at that point. The contractor gets paid when the work is done as agreed. The contractor is protected because the customer has already proved they can afford the job, and the contractor can have the money immediately after the work is done. No payment a month later.
Check that exact date they applied for liquidation. I supplied a company £21,000 worth of computer equipment. There was a delay in delivery and they accepted the goods just 1 day after the company had applied to go into liquidation. They had to pay.
On your invoice you could also put all materials supplied remain our property until invoice is paid in full ! That way you can go and retrieve your belongings and take back all the materials that you installed, when you turn up to do that it's amazing how fast they find the money !
It's all about trust, customer worried about giving money before anything happens and quality of any work, contractor worried about getting paid. Once bitten twice shy. If I don't know the company I'm really reluctant to put money up front.
When I was in business as an electrician with my late brother. We went back and removed all the lighting system in a printing works. 20 8ft fittings involved. Did not disconnect the Printers that we had installed.. Later on the customer we found had done a runner back overseas. I would always ask for upfront deposits. It worked.
I was a self employed mechanic, I only worked for people I liked. Because car repairs and parts often grow, I kept them informed and had consent. I would accept cheques, the old fashioned paper sort, post dated into the future. I and the client knew when they would be presented. I had proof of intention and they had a payment that was valid only after the date. I did have to begin legal action on a bounced cheque twice. If no payment at all, I just put their car away somewhere, payment did not take long. I also had a digger (excavator) business, much harder, filling a hole you had dug is not really viable.
Often the case is that the customer, later on talks to friends about what works are being done at their house, and then find out that they have paid way too much according to their friends/family so they get pissed about the price, feeling like they have been done over.
I've worked for small to big tech companies, and a few other industries after retirement #1. It seems that 10% to 20% no-pays is pretty common. Excuses range from bankruptcy / cash flow problems, to they just want to keep the money and think you won't go after them.
I'd have no trouble paying a deposit to Artisan Electrics, but that's because they're well vetted, have a very good presence, have good finances and are unlikely to go bankrupt, but a 50% deposit is HIGH risk for a customer, having not a leg to stand on if the company just decides or is forced to go awol
Not just Visa, any credit card payment over £100 made in the U.K. directly to a supplier (not via an intermediary such as paypal) is covered by Section 75 protection, @@garywright8846 and in my experience, it can be as simple as a phone call to your credit card company to make a claim. This is one of the areas where consumers are better protected by the Law than companies are.
I would never pay an 50% deposit. 10% max. Then 30% of the agreed amount on arrival or proof of order of the materials. Most people get payed after a month of labour including their costs for travel. But I never use middlemen. I am the guy that wants the work done. So I am the coordinator. I ask multiple self employed craftsmen for an quote and will give them an reasonable timeframe to do their thing.(which is usually flexible 1 or 2 week period to fit it in their schedule. And if stuff changes due to another contractor fucking things up (which we are humans shit happens) I will contact immediately for another date. If your open and honest 90/95-100 people will do the right job for the quoted money. And those 5-10% just don’t have to come again.
Robin Clevitt set up something like that but showing as Dissolved now on Company House. It was like a credit score for Customers but I guess it falls foul of GDPR explicit consent.
@@gary8306 They also have people running amok just because they have 18th Edition!!!!!! The chaotic way electrical qualifications are structured leaves a lot to be desired, the door is wide open for chancers to get involved with things they probably shouldn't.
I would be VERY apprehensive and very unlikely to pay any company who wanted HALF the total cost up front, ESPECIALLY tradesmen. Where is the requirement on their part to ask for anything above a deposit at that stage??!!
The only time I've been threatened by non-payment in the last decade was a long standing client whose finance director was going round bragging they could save money. They cheekily asked for a discount so I itemised the invoice into 15 minute increments. It was so sad as I'd worked for the client for 10 years but sometimes people just act strange. They eventually paid (I had a PO in place before).
Invoice up front to cover materials and a booking privilege into the schedule to guarantee dates. The whole balance. Yes. I do it with all my Residential customers, Businesses are tricky… This process for me vets my customers because the ones that don’t want to pay aren’t our target base. We don’t play around. Zero issues.
Over my 50 years of work, I’ve not been paid for two jobs. I was called to solve a radio link that couldn’t be panned in, on arrival I suspected the problem looking up from the ground to the link, snagging on steel. I followed a few basic rules with the radio team on site, no luck. Then I followed my initial thoughts, remounted the 1.2 Andrew’s dish to left hand mounting, (rarely used). Doing this I was able to pan the few move cm onto beam. Never got paid. £500 was the fee 1992.
I have had two customers ( businesses ) who have stung me for combined £32k. Very expensive legal letters were ignored and it was obvious they were testing to see how deep my pockets were. I later learnt from other tradesmen that both these companies have done this many times to other sole traders. Scummy people.
I'd think that it would be legal to have a clause in your contract stating that any expenses incurred by you in attempting to collect a past due debt are automatically considered to be part of the debt owed. I'm pretty sure that if the matter goes to court, you can claim any expenses there. In any case, why send legal letters? Why not just file with the court? If they test you as far as not paying once you have a judgement debt against them, transfer to the high court after the time for payment has expired and have the sheriffs collect for you.
I hired a PI to trace the individuals concerned and obtain their contact details. I think the shock of being found and the threat of small claims (where, if proven, they would have no further access to credit) made them finally pay up.
Good advice, I'm not electrician but had 3 instances of refuse to pay and not expensive jobs. The first was a man living on his own, retired and wanted his garage roof sorted out which I had quoted for, then he wanted his shed sorted, conservatory fixing and some pointing. At the end of the job he refused to pay the bill unless it was what I quoted for the garage roof, so then it was a bit of a tussle in when he was adamant he wouldn't pay in the end even for the garage roof I ended the relationship and just left him with I'll claim through small claims. Next day I got the full payment but then I had learned a lesson, quote for each job on separate invoices and it was my fault for not doing so. Second one was that a family had just moved into a mansion of a new place, he wanted a few jobs doing, I gave him an itemised quote that he accepted, I got through all the jobs and the last one was to fit a gun cabinet, however, because of the age of the house and the wall he changed his mind on installing it on was not suitable he said that it had to be there, ok I said and told him that the anchors had to be chemical to get a good hold and would cost a lot more, he then said no and then simply refused to pay the bill for what I had done and this one did go through to small claims and he was forced to pay up. He fitted the cabinet himself and the Firearms liaison office (FLO)failed the fitting, karma on that one. Third was a woman that I'd given her a quote to fit a loft hatch and ladder, everything went fine until she asked me to sort out a door that was dragging on the carpet downstairs, I gave her a verbal quote of £25 she paid for the original job saying the door should have been included in the quote FFS, some people think you are working for a charity, never got the money for the door. I'm sure you may have come across that before where a customer keeps adding more jobs as you are there then doesn't expect to pay for them. Three instances over 5 years I suppose isn't that bad, then came lockdown and my business died, after COVD my health went downhill and as I was coming up to retirement and I sold the business. All I can say it got my through a patch after redundancy and it cost me £50 to start up because I already had all the tools, I bought a van later one year in.
Worked as a consultant through an agency. As they said when we experienced the same: "Sometimes customers are crazy. That's OK, but one thing we can't live with, is them not paying."
Reminds me of a job a few years ago. The customer was a money no object type, everyone said the same, they aren’t short of cash. Turns out it was all a front and they didn’t have a pot to piss in. They had gone bust and tried to get me to invoice a pension trust fund. Went on for months and only resolved when I arrived with machinery to dismantle what I’d installed and told them I’d tell their social circle what they were like (my daughter knew a lot of their friends fortunately). Found out they’d gone bust twice before and they didn’t see anything wrong with what they were doing.
I work for my long time returning customers, I really didn’t like working for a complete stranger especially if they were wealthy, the few people that I had trouble with were the the wealthiest
In my experience i had one customer (I work in an COmputershop) whom wanted to pay, but the Bank was the Problem, as their system crashed massively and it took a few days to get it working again. That was ok, as it wasn't the fault of the customer.
Your experience with the subcontracting company is so common that it's likely they were taught this trick at a university while studying finance, it's lesson number one get other people to do all of the work and don't pay them, then wind up the company so there's no liability. That is Allegedly, may I add.
Tricky one. I agree with your points though I'm reluctant to pay deposits unfront (depending on amount asked for). You yourself say the contractor went bust, imagine how frustrating it is for the customer to pay a large deposit and then that company goes bust before the job starts.
The problem with asking for deposits upfront is there are a lot of scammers that ask for a deposit upfront, you pay the deposit, and that's the last your hear from them. I've been hit by this and reported it to the police and even though they went and spoke to the guy and he said he would return my deposit he never did. The police legal section said they couldn't prosecute him as it was a "commercial" matter and I would have to take him to court which is just another time and money cost for someone that is never going to pay. I'm happy to make progress payments but shy away from paying any small contractor upfront who hasn't provided me with the drivers license details and I go to their house to check they actually live there and then pay them the deposit if they need to purchase equipment and materials.
Couple of things here.... First off with EVs - people instruct contractors like you or I then when they learn OVO or Octopus do cheaper they feel shafted - wrong. They're the shafters doing it so cheap ripping the bottom out of the once respected industry and dropping standards. Second - unless you're a regular customer of mine - you pay 50/60% of the total job value at the time of estimating upfront. If you don't pay or haggle at the start, I refuse to work for or with you. I've also had people change a job though the actual installation but refused to pay for the variations which were agreed beforehand. We walked off site and he threatened us with court. See you there, son !
I had a "national" company screw me over, only 1 of 2 who ever got away with it; a 3rd who tried it - I sat in their CEO's waiting room and refused to leave until I was paid - in CASH.
Here in Australia, things went the other way. I had a problem with an air conditioner controller, which I suggested an easy repair instead of replacing. I had to chase them for the bill.
I carried out a repair on a hot tub, customer refused top pay without a reason. Its now gone to the Bailiffs to recover the money. Takes a long time and a lot of effort but if we allow these people to get away with it, they'll continue to do it.
its funny, in Denmark where i live we never pay up front, so we as the customer do not get shafted, by a half completed job that should last a week, but end up lasting 6 months, or maybe even the company never bother to come back and finish the job. i am a tradesman too, so i can definitely see your point as well, agreeing on a job can both be finacially harmful for both customer and the service provider. this would ofcourse not be an issue if people were honest, but every once in a while we stumble upon dishonest people, and then we have to try and figure that headache out.
You have no idea. A winding up application needs several thousand pounds up front cost. You need to serve a statutory demand first which must be for an UNDISPUTED DEBT (usually an earlier court judgement) Go read a book and stop giving bad advice that you have never done in real life
Hi Jordan Re Due Diligence, I have very often used Dunn and Bradstreet when Procuring Services or Big Ticket Items. If you haven't used them yet, it may be a good tool for you.
I don’t take any work on without a 50% down payment once all the gear is on the job, that usually gets the bad people out in the open, I just work for the good guys, there’s so much work out there
In my work we do B2B work all the time. Before working with a new customer we always do a credit check and get credit insurance. If credit is poor or the underwriter won’t insure them, that’s it all done on proforma or not at all.
I've used the small claims courts a few times, first time was to a TAXI firm that refused to pay me my settle of £190 back in the 1990 they ended up with a CCJ on file.
If you did not overprice work and overcharging clients . Then Pretending to do some work carrying a drill then messing with the conduit bender . Why not go and earn some money by doing some graft
Electricians, plumbers etc dealing with members of the public have a easy life when it comes to getting paid, try being a small guy doing work for a big company.
I have always paid for all invoices for any work done. However always like to pay some of the deposit on a credit card for the protection it gives. Like you the customer needs to check the business has good reviews and is trustworthy.
18 year in business, had one customer not pay and they were overseas so limited options, as soon as an invoice is overdue, make contact, if that fails, money claim letter, job done. No need to learn the hard way, just do it the right way, trust no one ever.
Also use companies house when dealing with businesses that are limited, will give you a very good insight into their business, its very obvious if somethings not right, I even do this now when using a company privately for work at home.
@@Studio488photography If it's a "limited" or "proprietary" then it's a company, not a business. A business is just a name reserved for the exclusive use of the proprietor of the business. The proprieter is the one responsible for the debts of the business. A company is a separate legal entity which is able to own its own property (and also to own business names) quite separately from the property of the directors who run the company and the share holders who own the company. In general, only property owned by the company can be seized to pay for the company's debts. That's why the word "limited" is in the name. It's a warning that the liability of the company is limited. (Source: It used to be literally my job to know this stuff)
I really enjoyed this video. Wish someone like you was around to advise me in the 80's. I bought a business via an business agency. Within a month I knew the books had been doctored but not sure how. The weekly takings were considerably less than previous owner recorded yet we were busier than they were. A couple more months went by when I found out why our figures were considerably less than theirs. I got a phone call from a couple who wanted to know if I (meaning previous owner) was available to photograph their wedding. Yes you guessed it, he took a wedding almost every month for cash payment and put it through the shop as Saturday takings.
I am a plumber ie a tradesman. When I quote for a fairly expensive job - say £3000 and it is accepted I ask for 50% of the total IN ADVANCE and weekly payment. If the person refuses - walk away. If the customer wants the job doing then they will accept this.
I’ll say this upfront: you order goods/services, they get delivered to the agreed standard, you pay. It’s not rocket science and it’s the way our society has operated for hundreds of years. But what annoys me here is that the individual who was struggling to pay was taken to court and paid, yet the wealthy businessman just dissolved his company, started a new one and didn’t pay (presumably to do it again). Both should have paid. A businessman near me did something similar, owing £3m to creditors, leaving his local crowd-funded investors with nothing and just restarted the company under a different name. It seems to me that there is something inherently wrong here - why is there such a gaping hole in our laws?
You can avoid the small claims court - just print out the official scary looking claims form. Fill it in with the details of the case and send it to the customer. Most people will pay before you even file it with the courts. If they don't pay you can just file it.
I don’t understand people who contract a service they have no intention of paying for. I had some work done recently (couldn’t find enough budget for you guys) but I got stressed out because a week after the work had been completed I hadn’t had the final invoice to pay.
I run a small manufacturing company. My “rules” are payment in advance or 50% on order and 50% before delivery. I’ve learned to never bend the rules having been stung. Have you considered small claims for any? We did. Horrendous experience. That said - good customers give more good customers and they are the majority!!
As a customer I've had a discussion where i need to know how much the work will be and how much i need to save up then give back once saved up to get the work done. (Will be doing that again too get more solar installed).
i still have £97k outstanding for 4 months now. still getting resolved and all part of the game. the bigger the company the more complicated it can get 🙂
That would require they list the cost of materials and then the customer can see how much profit they are making. No one wants to know they are being overcharged.
Join our free community at www.skool.com/electricians to connect with other tradespeople and access my business course for electricians. 🫵
I was employed for a short while by a guy who was adept at destroying cash flow for small businesses. People would be doing well if they were paid for work done, or products supplied, within 6 months, and he could string out the payment process for longer than a year. He never lifted a finger to pay until a written threat of legal action was received, whereupon he would write a cheque and make a deliberate mistake on it; the date, no signature, wrong recipient name, and so on. Then the cheque would be returned sometime later, and he would ignore it, and so the process would continue.
He would also look for businesses who were on the edge of bankruptcy, and wait for them to go under, sometimes never paying them for work done. The guy was ruthless, and he knew the law inside out, because he had legal qualifications.
There were plenty of other tricks up his sleeves, but I'll not bore you with them here. I left the job at the first convenient opportunity, and never looked back.
As a customer who works in finance too, I would not pay a contracter 50% upfront. I would however have no issue paying 50% on arrival/material delivery, and the balance at switch on.
yes Jordan did a video about a month ago admitting that the quality of installations is poor especially with solar. So I think customers are taking a risk too not knowing if the contractor is going to show up or even do a legit install.
Just use S75.
Agree. Gas installer wanted £1500 up front for a £3000 new boiler installation. Said Id pay the 1500 when the boiler was delivered to my home but no, he wanted the money so he didnt get the job. The installer who did get the job only wanted 500 up front and not a one man band.
You would understand once you had been screwed by a scumbag of a customer. Research the contractor & if they have a great reputation then you have nothing to worry about.
I agree, it works both ways if a company wants 50% upfront that's a bit of a red flag for me.
I had a plumber work for me. He wanted a lot of money upfront, but I stood firm and agreed a stage payment plan that was in my favour. Luckily I did, as he disappeared, then refused to come back and finish the job. He was a recommendation and had good reviews... Never pay upfront... If someone wants you to pay for materials upfront... pay when they are on your job and you have the receipt
Nobody is gonna work for you if you make them front your materials. That is just retarded. No one who's in trades will take that risk and lose on a ton of money if you change your mind.
This or when they have a receipt for you with your delivery address from a reputable company.
For there are only like a couple of suppliers here anyway. So it’s easy to cross reference. And if things check out then pay.
Honestly I have not run into issues with multiple renovations. And I pay the day the work is done according to agreements.
Contractors having to wait an month can be really difficult for the smaller ones if it’s an larger job.
As a tradesman I insist that the customer doesn’t pay till I finish a job and that the payment in full on completion is proof that they are satisfied with the work. Never ever in 50 years has anyone refused to pay or quibbled on price. Moral is I aim to please and if they’re not happy nor am I. I do not sub contract though.
Doesn't matter how good you are not being paid is always the risk
@@michaeldunham3385 dying tomorrow is a risk, I still do my best to avoid it though.
@@michaeldunham3385 isnt a risk when i got a gang of mates who will break into the property and strip all materials used
Thanks for this, we are solar installers in the beautiful Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico, we always take an upfront deposit, as you rightly say, if they will not pay that then they probably will not pay you... we also have the huge advantage that virtually all our clients are referrals, so they already have massive trust in us as people and as a company. Love your content, thanks for sharing!
I used to install CCTV. I always had a 'backdoor' into the system ( when systems were pc based!). One guy bounced a £3k cheque on me. i logged into the system, stopped his camera feeds, and left a message on his home screen. He told me to come and collect a Bankers Cheque, which i did. Job Done !!!
I have one currently
Board change.
I got a deposit upfront to cover the materials. That was paid immediately upon request.
The final balance has didn't get paid. I got excuse after excuse then ignored
Went to a small claims, they didn't even respond to it. I then requested a judgement. Won that. Customer (and I use that term very loosely) was ordered to pay immediately. He has ignored that.
I believe next week he's getting a visit from a couple of enforcement officers.
Fingers crossed 🤞
It depends. Baliffs have less power than sheriffs. If the officers are only baliffs and they fail to collect, I'd suggest transferring to the High Court so that you can get the Sheriffs to go and collect for you. Sheriffs have the power to seize property from the debtor in order to get the debt paid.
What a horrible waste of time and stress for you. Running a small business has enough headaches.
You won't see a penny
I had exactly the same experience but when the bailiffs turned up they said they’d never heard of the person who owed the money
I gave up then
@@liveloud9894 If this is in Britain, Australia or NZ, the next step is to transfer to the High Court and get the sheriff's department to handle it. They have more powers than the baliffs do.
I paid a 50% deposit upfront, never saw the plumber again. Moral of the tale - do your due diligence
Very true
Had exactly the same with a roofer/Velux installer. I won’t pay up front now, also don’t ask our customers to do that, unless it’s a very large commercial contract like our last one with £20k of materials, which we requested payment up front.
It’s a hard one to balance, we’re still early in trading, only a year and a half in, and although having established a great reputation already, we need to expand and get more work so we can take staff on, and don’t want to be putting smaller customers off by asking for up front payments, when they’ve no experience of working with us before.
We’ve been very lucky to date with zero non-payers thankfully…
@@InTruServ half on delivery, half on completion of installation in my opinion
Ok you are a new company still learning practice makes perfect as they say
@@artisanelectrics Maybe there should be an easy form of escrow available? 50% up-front, but can’t be taken by the supplier until the job’s done (or half done). That way both sides have confidence.
£5700, must have been for a single socket.
😂
Yep, that’s the ‘cash’ price 😂
😂😂😂😂
Mates rates 😂
Yeah but the £60 socket change folk left the place about to burn down, so he can bill what he wants until the competition get their act together.
As a retired sparks I paid a roofer 50% up front and the balance on completion. The roof leaked and he just ignored me. I got a CCJ against him. In the 90's I had a solicitor refuse to pay but I took him to the small claims court and he was told off by the judge.
People don't understand - bills of this size for work done can put a small "one man band" company like myself OUT OF BUSINESS. I know a plumber from years ago who went out of business because of unpaid bills.
As a self employed welder, I very often suffer with companies that demand 90day terms or presume 90day terms or customers that don't pay on time or have to be hassled. The problem spans across various indsutries and is getting worse. Some businesses have gone bust because some "big customers" don't pay up at all. Times are very difficult for all businesses, no matter the size and scale.
The worst are construction companies. My Dad had a construction cleanup company where they do all the cleanup when construction is done. I am not exaggerating, 75% of companies that book him, screw him over, don't pay or delay, delay, delay beyond 6 months. So he has to cover a huge float for all the employees and material and hope he gets paid. He finally sold the business because it wasn't worth the trouble. He kept his corporate carpet/floor cleaning business and that did not have any of these issues, since most of the work was recurring keeping the floors clean and he knew the companies well. It sucks that there are so many companies out there that screw their subcontractors.
The problem with this stupid terms system, is that it creates a cascading effect. Some company does not pay, can force your company to go bankrupt, but that can trigger other companies behind you to also have liquidity problems... The biggest issue is, if you ask as a company to be paid on time, they simply buy it from your competitor who gives them, 60, 90 ... whatever days. So the companies that are diligent to keep a healthy finance book, will be punished the most.
Our industries are always one big customer defaulting away from dominos!!
@@JonDingle Big companies are notorious for it. They can drag things on, and have such legal clout that its not worth taking them to Court. Or you risk putting yourself out of business trying.
Look at all the developers getting away with cladding, tells you all you need to know.
Don't work for them. Tell them that you are self-employed to give them the flexibility of not having you on the workforce, but you need to be paid within 30 days otherwise you can't live. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you have to accept their terms.
Industrial sparks here, 90 day terms are part and parcel of this type of business. Unfortunately have to bank roll jobs 🙃.
If you speak to your site contact they might be able to negotiate 30 day terms. I’ve managed on a few occasions.
In France it was the regulation that you paid 30% up front 30% half way through the work and 35% at the completion. The remaining 5% was paid after snagging. If the snagging wasn't done the customer keeps the 5%
Otherwise they burn your car?
@@leonkernan French don't mess about.
Twenty five years ago I had a customer that ignored a very small invoice. After several visits he was still holding the money. ( less than £100 ). Eventually I put him through the court. Nothing. When I got the letter back from court to say he had no assets I was in the shop cursing. One customer who had just retired as a Police Inspector said he would like to go and talk to him. He was toying with the idea of debt collection. I didn't want to waste anymore money and he said he was happy to do it for free. When he came back a few days later, he was also cursing. Everything that was in the customers workshop was owned by various relatives. He had no assets. I used to see the ass on school committees and at council meetings. Eventually I cracked. I followed him home one night and then paint strippered the side of his car. A while after he had it resprayed I did the other side. It was never about the money. Pay your debts.
I'm an electrical contractor and never once asked for 50% up front..
You're a unicorn. 50% is standard in the US for most contracting businesses. I ran a handyman service and only got screwed for money twice. Both were people who had religious symbols on their business cards. They were a $2,000 lesson the hard way.
Ur an absolute mug that’s why 😂😂😂
Maybe I pick and choose my clients because I can...
I' normally ask for 50 percent after 1st fix then the other 50 percent after second fix
@ so you provide all materials with your own money initially
Whatever works for you 🤷♂️
Im telling you now.....there is such a thing as a professional rogue customer....people who just get loads of stuff done for them with no intention of paying and will wriggle and avoid till you get bored of chasing or concoct some amazing delaying tactics or make up spurious allegations of poor workmanship to either chip the agreed price down or tey to avoid it altogether.......be on your guard
I once had a customer go quiet on me for weeks and when i fibally got hold of the husband he said the wife was sorely disappointed in that we have left dusty fingerprints on door handkes and on their new kettle that they said we could use........
Small claims works very well.
I dont understand the mindset of these punters who get a good job done but have zero guilt in refusing to pay.
Thief is the best way to describe a customer like that, as what they are doing is theft. Simply as that...
You must be getting paid OK if your name is fatwalletboy 😂😂
Small claims works very well
"I haven't been paid by several people...."
"Here's my tips for being paid every time..."
I'm going out on a limb here and suggest they don't work.
If you milked the job as long as you milked the story no wonder you didn't get paid
😆
@@Terry-Tibbs disagree, interesting to hear the contractors side.
@Terry-Tibbs agree, not interesting to hear the contractors side.
I completely agree for a deposit upfront but when we have arrived on site and before any work is carried out. Ev chargers are a big outlay and the cable and other parts alone cost more than the labour what is being charged in some cases
As ever a great video...some customers are very....eerrr....difficult. Like you, I take great pride in my work and get very annoyed at non payers, fortunately I have only had a couple over the years...yep, small claims court
My son had a similar experience of non payment after an EV installation. After four months, still no payment so my son informed the customer that he would be visiting the property to recover his assets. Two days later payment was received in full
As a tradesman myself (security industry) I charge a 25% deposit. If they have trouble paying that, or take forever and you have to call them 5 times to get the deposit, then I'm on guard. I may still do the job, but I tell them I will call a couple of days before completion for them to pay the balance. If they won't comply I won't do the job. Normal customers who pay the deposit no problem and I get a good vibe I trust to pay the balance after completion.
I've found that the more wealthier the customer, the harder it it to get them to pay.
Same for me as a window cleaner. Poorer areas, payment straight away, cups of tea and a few quid xmas tip. The well of areas, they pay if they feel like it
Not just that, but still relevant. I used to work for a company as a neutral fault engineer. Went to properties whose electrics had a fault and blown up a lot of appliances. The people put in claims for things that were damaged or destroyed. The people that lived in Council houses were excited to get a new Kettle or a Toaster, but guess what, the rich put in 1000s of £'s worth of stuff that didn't even need replacing.
@richierich8334 👍 they think their money is their God, unfortunately.
Richie rich ! Would that be an Edward hitler reference? 🌝
That’s why they have money. Only use someone else’s money when they are on company expenses etc and last to put their hands in the pocket for anything that comes out of their own bank account.
Yep I can totally relate to that 👍
"It wasn't nice for the customer to go through"
Then she should have paid. Don't ask for a service you can't afford.
As a customer, i know how bad times are for business. If you cant afford to pay, dont engage them.
Example, my oven circuit tripped a few months ago. I can still cook with microwave, toaster oven, slow cooker and portable induction hobs. Ive got other financial priorities and dont need to get the oven working any time soon.
My washing machine needed repair, so i got the repairer out to look at it and quote, and up front i checked the call out fee etc to make sure i knew what i was walking into. Unfortunately its been 4 weeks and he hasnt been back to finish the job! 😢
11:43 - WOW (I would be a bit bummed though if I had already paid for this in the past... lol) Would definitely love to join in the very near future - You are an indispensable source of help already.
I’ve been in an electrician in the U.S. for over 31 years and I can concur it’s very seldom I have a customer that refuses to pay.
I've been stung twice by companies that have gone bust and I have some really strong views about it. The Bankruptcy system was brought in to avoid the situation of Victorian debtors prisons and to recognise that sometimes with the best will in the world, a business just doesn't work. Sadly though all too often it is used to screw people over. I've known at least one situation where a group of people run one company into the ground while building another up as a lifeboat, shafting a lot of folks along the way.
I strongly believe that the law should change. Anyone who declares bankruptcy and then gets rich should be obliged to go back and pay folks!
At least in Australia, leaving a string of defunct companies which all closed down while owing money is a red flag which can see the director(s) of the previous companies banned from being directors for a number of years. It's also a serious crime to appoint a "puppet" director. The law is specifically structured to stop someone from being able to argue "but I wasn't a director, I only advised the director."
I'd be surprised if the law wasn't at least similar in the UK. Part of the problem is that people don't report what they know but instead just give up.
In the past, I've asked _certain customers_ for _full payment_ up-front because of this -- and surprisingly, presumably because they were desperate, they stumped up.
As a customer, If a company wanted 50% up front I would walk away. That gives me alarm bells. I can’t lose hundreds of pounds. I appreciate I would never be able to afford your work as you seem to cater to millionaires but for me if I lost £200 deposit for a job It would take me a long time to save that again.
Maybe there should be an easy form of escrow available? 50% up-front, but can’t be taken by the supplier until the job’s done (or half done). That way both sides have confidence.
Absolutely agree. Online advice always says NEVER pay ANYTHING upfront.
Standard practice in building and associated industries, and for a bloody good reason.
Yeah funny people are so shocked at this. Paying up front is completely normal even for goods unless you have a credit account which usually takes a form signed by directors and a credit check - even then it's not guaranteed you'll get credit
Trust is a 2 way street, too many dodgy customers around knowing they will never pay and it’s getting worst for tradesmen.
I feel for you. I used to run a logistics company and I closed it because I was sick and tired of the number of companies that refused to pay and the amount of time I was spending writing claims forms and having to go to court. It even got to the point where I would refused to deliver the goods until payment was made and had people then turning up to my office and trying to break into my vans and buildings.
Lost 60 grand on a project where they sold the house out from under the project before I could get a lien on it and then went bankrupt. That was real cash, not labor markup
We used to say in our contract that we would sell your debt to a recovery company after 3 months, it was a bikie gang and we would take 10-20% cut to do that but 80% better than nothing
What I can't say I liked was that you say in the video, we can charge what we want as we're Artisan Electrics
ESCROW should be used more in the UK. Customers give the cost of the job to a solicitor who is allowed to release the money at specific stages, such as when materials need to be purchased, but the materials are bought by the customer at that point. The contractor gets paid when the work is done as agreed. The contractor is protected because the customer has already proved they can afford the job, and the contractor can have the money immediately after the work is done. No payment a month later.
He's a good electrician and a good filmmaker. Some people just have the intuition of how to tell a story through film.
Check that exact date they applied for liquidation. I supplied a company £21,000 worth of computer equipment. There was a delay in delivery and they accepted the goods just 1 day after the
company had applied to go into liquidation. They had to pay.
Love the fact you are actually filming whilst picking up inventory - really makes the journey a better experience
On your invoice you could also put all materials supplied remain our property until invoice is paid in full !
That way you can go and retrieve your belongings and take back all the materials that you installed, when you turn up to do that it's amazing how fast they find the money !
Deposit up front, NO invoices, payment immediately there and then on completion. That's why card machines exist.
The editing/progression of this felt like I was watching a knock-off version of homes under the hammer.
It's all about trust, customer worried about giving money before anything happens and quality of any work, contractor worried about getting paid. Once bitten twice shy. If I don't know the company I'm really reluctant to put money up front.
Jordan I have been in exactly the same situation as you and I am willing to share my story with you directly
Sure! Send us an email 👍
When I was in business as an electrician with my late brother. We went back and removed all the lighting system in a printing works. 20 8ft fittings involved. Did not disconnect the Printers that we had installed.. Later on the customer we found had done a runner back overseas. I would always ask for upfront deposits. It worked.
He probably got the electric bill for those 20 8fts beiing on!😂😂
I was a self employed mechanic, I only worked for people I liked. Because car repairs and parts often grow, I kept them informed and had consent. I would accept cheques, the old fashioned paper sort, post dated into the future. I and the client knew when they would be presented. I had proof of intention and they had a payment that was valid only after the date. I did have to begin legal action on a bounced cheque twice. If no payment at all, I just put their car away somewhere, payment did not take long. I also had a digger (excavator) business, much harder, filling a hole you had dug is not really viable.
Often the case is that the customer, later on talks to friends about what works are being done at their house, and then find out that they have paid way too much according to their friends/family so they get pissed about the price, feeling like they have been done over.
I've worked for small to big tech companies, and a few other industries after retirement #1. It seems that 10% to 20% no-pays is pretty common. Excuses range from bankruptcy / cash flow problems, to they just want to keep the money and think you won't go after them.
Liked and subbed! People suck sometimes! Have a great Christmas and may your bills all be paid on time! ☺
I'd have no trouble paying a deposit to Artisan Electrics, but that's because they're well vetted, have a very good presence, have good finances and are unlikely to go bankrupt, but a 50% deposit is HIGH risk for a customer, having not a leg to stand on if the company just decides or is forced to go awol
If you pay by Visa you are covered.
Not just Visa, any credit card payment over £100 made in the U.K. directly to a supplier (not via an intermediary such as paypal) is covered by Section 75 protection, @@garywright8846 and in my experience, it can be as simple as a phone call to your credit card company to make a claim. This is one of the areas where consumers are better protected by the Law than companies are.
I would never pay an 50% deposit.
10% max. Then 30% of the agreed amount on arrival or proof of order of the materials.
Most people get payed after a month of labour including their costs for travel.
But I never use middlemen.
I am the guy that wants the work done. So I am the coordinator. I ask multiple self employed craftsmen for an quote and will give them an reasonable timeframe to do their thing.(which is usually flexible 1 or 2 week period to fit it in their schedule. And if stuff changes due to another contractor fucking things up (which we are humans shit happens) I will contact immediately for another date.
If your open and honest 90/95-100 people will do the right job for the quoted money.
And those 5-10% just don’t have to come again.
Easy to find reviews on companies but we need a place where customers can be reviewed by contractors!
Robin Clevitt set up something like that but showing as Dissolved now on Company House. It was like a credit score for Customers but I guess it falls foul of GDPR explicit consent.
Don't believe all reviews on something like check a trade, they take down bad reviews......
@@gary8306 They also have people running amok just because they have 18th Edition!!!!!!
The chaotic way electrical qualifications are structured leaves a lot to be desired, the door is wide open for chancers to get involved with things they probably shouldn't.
I would be VERY apprehensive and very unlikely to pay any company who wanted HALF the total cost up front, ESPECIALLY tradesmen. Where is the requirement on their part to ask for anything above a deposit at that stage??!!
The only time I've been threatened by non-payment in the last decade was a long standing client whose finance director was going round bragging they could save money. They cheekily asked for a discount so I itemised the invoice into 15 minute increments. It was so sad as I'd worked for the client for 10 years but sometimes people just act strange. They eventually paid (I had a PO in place before).
Invoice up front to cover materials and a booking privilege into the schedule to guarantee dates. The whole balance. Yes.
I do it with all my Residential customers, Businesses are tricky… This process for me vets my customers because the ones that don’t want to pay aren’t our target base. We don’t play around. Zero issues.
Over my 50 years of work, I’ve not been paid for two jobs. I was called to solve a radio link that couldn’t be panned in, on arrival I suspected the problem looking up from the ground to the link, snagging on steel. I followed a few basic rules with the radio team on site, no luck. Then I followed my initial thoughts, remounted the 1.2 Andrew’s dish to left hand mounting, (rarely used). Doing this I was able to pan the few move cm onto beam. Never got paid. £500 was the fee 1992.
I have had two customers ( businesses ) who have stung me for combined £32k. Very expensive legal letters were ignored and it was obvious they were testing to see how deep my pockets were. I later learnt from other tradesmen that both these companies have done this many times to other sole traders. Scummy people.
Thanks for sharing!
I'd think that it would be legal to have a clause in your contract stating that any expenses incurred by you in attempting to collect a past due debt are automatically considered to be part of the debt owed.
I'm pretty sure that if the matter goes to court, you can claim any expenses there. In any case, why send legal letters? Why not just file with the court? If they test you as far as not paying once you have a judgement debt against them, transfer to the high court after the time for payment has expired and have the sheriffs collect for you.
Owned by TRUMP?
I hired a PI to trace the individuals concerned and obtain their contact details. I think the shock of being found and the threat of small claims (where, if proven, they would have no further access to credit) made them finally pay up.
Good advice, I'm not electrician but had 3 instances of refuse to pay and not expensive jobs. The first was a man living on his own, retired and wanted his garage roof sorted out which I had quoted for, then he wanted his shed sorted, conservatory fixing and some pointing. At the end of the job he refused to pay the bill unless it was what I quoted for the garage roof, so then it was a bit of a tussle in when he was adamant he wouldn't pay in the end even for the garage roof I ended the relationship and just left him with I'll claim through small claims. Next day I got the full payment but then I had learned a lesson, quote for each job on separate invoices and it was my fault for not doing so.
Second one was that a family had just moved into a mansion of a new place, he wanted a few jobs doing, I gave him an itemised quote that he accepted, I got through all the jobs and the last one was to fit a gun cabinet, however, because of the age of the house and the wall he changed his mind on installing it on was not suitable he said that it had to be there, ok I said and told him that the anchors had to be chemical to get a good hold and would cost a lot more, he then said no and then simply refused to pay the bill for what I had done and this one did go through to small claims and he was forced to pay up. He fitted the cabinet himself and the Firearms liaison office (FLO)failed the fitting, karma on that one.
Third was a woman that I'd given her a quote to fit a loft hatch and ladder, everything went fine until she asked me to sort out a door that was dragging on the carpet downstairs, I gave her a verbal quote of £25 she paid for the original job saying the door should have been included in the quote FFS, some people think you are working for a charity, never got the money for the door. I'm sure you may have come across that before where a customer keeps adding more jobs as you are there then doesn't expect to pay for them.
Three instances over 5 years I suppose isn't that bad, then came lockdown and my business died, after COVD my health went downhill and as I was coming up to retirement and I sold the business. All I can say it got my through a patch after redundancy and it cost me £50 to start up because I already had all the tools, I bought a van later one year in.
Worked as a consultant through an agency. As they said when we experienced the same: "Sometimes customers are crazy. That's OK, but one thing we can't live with, is them not paying."
Reminds me of a job a few years ago. The customer was a money no object type, everyone said the same, they aren’t short of cash. Turns out it was all a front and they didn’t have a pot to piss in. They had gone bust and tried to get me to invoice a pension trust fund. Went on for months and only resolved when I arrived with machinery to dismantle what I’d installed and told them I’d tell their social circle what they were like (my daughter knew a lot of their friends fortunately). Found out they’d gone bust twice before and they didn’t see anything wrong with what they were doing.
I work for my long time returning customers, I really didn’t like working for a complete stranger especially if they were wealthy, the few people that I had trouble with were the the wealthiest
In my experience i had one customer (I work in an COmputershop) whom wanted to pay, but the Bank was the Problem, as their system crashed massively and it took a few days to get it working again. That was ok, as it wasn't the fault of the customer.
Your experience with the subcontracting company is so common that it's likely they were taught this trick at a university while studying finance, it's lesson number one get other people to do all of the work and don't pay them, then wind up the company so there's no liability. That is Allegedly, may I add.
Tricky one. I agree with your points though I'm reluctant to pay deposits unfront (depending on amount asked for). You yourself say the contractor went bust, imagine how frustrating it is for the customer to pay a large deposit and then that company goes bust before the job starts.
The problem with asking for deposits upfront is there are a lot of scammers that ask for a deposit upfront, you pay the deposit, and that's the last your hear from them. I've been hit by this and reported it to the police and even though they went and spoke to the guy and he said he would return my deposit he never did. The police legal section said they couldn't prosecute him as it was a "commercial" matter and I would have to take him to court which is just another time and money cost for someone that is never going to pay. I'm happy to make progress payments but shy away from paying any small contractor upfront who hasn't provided me with the drivers license details and I go to their house to check they actually live there and then pay them the deposit if they need to purchase equipment and materials.
It boils my piss. I only work for customers I know now. I hope you get some of it back
Good to see John's doing very well.
I would never pay 50% upfront. Recently had a £20K quote for a roof job. No way am I giving them £10k upfront.
Couple of things here....
First off with EVs - people instruct contractors like you or I then when they learn OVO or Octopus do cheaper they feel shafted - wrong. They're the shafters doing it so cheap ripping the bottom out of the once respected industry and dropping standards.
Second - unless you're a regular customer of mine - you pay 50/60% of the total job value at the time of estimating upfront. If you don't pay or haggle at the start, I refuse to work for or with you.
I've also had people change a job though the actual installation but refused to pay for the variations which were agreed beforehand. We walked off site and he threatened us with court. See you there, son !
I had a "national" company screw me over, only 1 of 2 who ever got away with it; a 3rd who tried it - I sat in their CEO's waiting room and refused to leave until I was paid - in CASH.
Here in Australia, things went the other way. I had a problem with an air conditioner controller, which I suggested an easy repair instead of replacing. I had to chase them for the bill.
If a customer pays the 50% up front and your unable to complete a job in the time scale do you give customer discount
I carried out a repair on a hot tub, customer refused top pay without a reason. Its now gone to the Bailiffs to recover the money. Takes a long time and a lot of effort but if we allow these people to get away with it, they'll continue to do it.
its funny, in Denmark where i live we never pay up front, so we as the customer do not get shafted, by a half completed job that should last a week, but end up lasting 6 months, or maybe even the company never bother to come back and finish the job.
i am a tradesman too, so i can definitely see your point as well, agreeing on a job can both be finacially harmful for both customer and the service provider.
this would ofcourse not be an issue if people were honest, but every once in a while we stumble upon dishonest people, and then we have to try and figure that headache out.
Sir, standing in TLC Direct doesn't reflect well on the good name of the company. If i may.
The issue of a Winding Up Order on a company normally does the trick. With a householder, Northampton SCC is a lovely place to visit
You have no idea.
A winding up application needs several thousand pounds up front cost.
You need to serve a statutory demand first which must be for an UNDISPUTED DEBT (usually an earlier court judgement)
Go read a book and stop giving bad advice that you have never done in real life
Hi Jordan Re Due Diligence, I have very often used Dunn and Bradstreet when Procuring Services or Big Ticket Items. If you haven't used them yet, it may be a good tool for you.
I don’t take any work on without a 50% down payment once all the gear is on the job, that usually gets the bad people out in the open, I just work for the good guys, there’s so much work out there
In my work we do B2B work all the time. Before working with a new customer we always do a credit check and get credit insurance. If credit is poor or the underwriter won’t insure them, that’s it all done on proforma or not at all.
Take them to court - they'll have to pay up then or lose their car, house etc.
I've used the small claims courts a few times, first time was to a TAXI firm that refused to pay me my settle of £190 back in the 1990 they ended up with a CCJ on file.
If you did not overprice work and overcharging clients . Then
Pretending to do some work carrying a drill then messing with the conduit bender . Why not go and earn some money by doing some graft
5700 Is a bit dear for changing a socket though .I mean you admitted you charge 30k for a rewire.
Electricians, plumbers etc dealing with members of the public have a easy life when it comes to getting paid, try being a small guy doing work for a big company.
I have always paid for all invoices for any work done. However always like to pay some of the deposit on a credit card for the protection it gives. Like you the customer needs to check the business has good reviews and is trustworthy.
18 year in business, had one customer not pay and they were overseas so limited options, as soon as an invoice is overdue, make contact, if that fails, money claim letter, job done. No need to learn the hard way, just do it the right way, trust no one ever.
Also use companies house when dealing with businesses that are limited, will give you a very good insight into their business, its very obvious if somethings not right, I even do this now when using a company privately for work at home.
@@Studio488photography If it's a "limited" or "proprietary" then it's a company, not a business. A business is just a name reserved for the exclusive use of the proprietor of the business. The proprieter is the one responsible for the debts of the business.
A company is a separate legal entity which is able to own its own property (and also to own business names) quite separately from the property of the directors who run the company and the share holders who own the company. In general, only property owned by the company can be seized to pay for the company's debts. That's why the word "limited" is in the name. It's a warning that the liability of the company is limited.
(Source: It used to be literally my job to know this stuff)
fill your pain mate got done twice in twenty years 3k and 12k it hurts but you pick your self up and move forward x
I really enjoyed this video. Wish someone like you was around to advise me in the 80's. I bought a business via an business agency. Within a month I knew the books had been doctored but not sure how. The weekly takings were considerably less than previous owner recorded yet we were busier than they were. A couple more months went by when I found out why our figures were considerably less than theirs. I got a phone call from a couple who wanted to know if I (meaning previous owner) was available to photograph their wedding. Yes you guessed it, he took a wedding almost every month for cash payment and put it through the shop as Saturday takings.
I am a plumber ie a tradesman. When I quote for a fairly expensive job - say £3000 and it is accepted I ask for 50% of the total IN ADVANCE and weekly payment. If the person refuses - walk away. If the customer wants the job doing then they will accept this.
I’ll say this upfront: you order goods/services, they get delivered to the agreed standard, you pay. It’s not rocket science and it’s the way our society has operated for hundreds of years. But what annoys me here is that the individual who was struggling to pay was taken to court and paid, yet the wealthy businessman just dissolved his company, started a new one and didn’t pay (presumably to do it again). Both should have paid. A businessman near me did something similar, owing £3m to creditors, leaving his local crowd-funded investors with nothing and just restarted the company under a different name. It seems to me that there is something inherently wrong here - why is there such a gaping hole in our laws?
Maybe when the customer finds out that they could have got a decent job done, a lot cheaper, it makes them feel like they have been ripped off.
Bit of bad luck there, aren't directors personally liable if they run a company knowing it is insolvent?
You can avoid the small claims court - just print out the official scary looking claims form. Fill it in with the details of the case and send it to the customer.
Most people will pay before you even file it with the courts. If they don't pay you can just file it.
I don’t understand people who contract a service they have no intention of paying for.
I had some work done recently (couldn’t find enough budget for you guys) but I got stressed out because a week after the work had been completed I hadn’t had the final invoice to pay.
I run a small manufacturing company. My “rules” are payment in advance or 50% on order and 50% before delivery. I’ve learned to never bend the rules having been stung.
Have you considered small claims for any? We did. Horrendous experience.
That said - good customers give more good customers and they are the majority!!
I would pay half on arrival of contractor and materials then the other half when the work is complete, it’s a simple thing no ?
As a customer I've had a discussion where i need to know how much the work will be and how much i need to save up then give back once saved up to get the work done. (Will be doing that again too get more solar installed).
i still have £97k outstanding for 4 months now. still getting resolved and all part of the game. the bigger the company the more complicated it can get 🙂
I wouldn’t pay you 50% up front. I would be happy to pay you for materials when they arrive on site and not before.
That would require they list the cost of materials and then the customer can see how much profit they are making.
No one wants to know they are being overcharged.
@@deang5622making profits on materials?!?
Sure, you can have a "payment plan". It's called "put it on your credit card".
Love this video style.