The Chulyms
Вставка
- Опубліковано 19 гру 2022
- A tiny Turkic ethnic group that resides along the Chulym River, the Chulyms are a rapidly dwindling people. Descendants of Tatars, Yeniseans and others, the Chulyms stand out as one of the most interesting of the small nations nestled in Siberia.
There is a very succesful chulym music group, Otyken, founded very recently. I don't know to what extent they actually represent chulym culture though.
Yeah, I came across them during my research. They seem to be a Khakkasian group from the Chulym river region (which is fairly broad) - though they state they do have songs sung in Chulym (as well as others).
I left them out as it seemed a littler inappropriate to include them as not 100% Chulym or Chulym focused.
@@allaboutrussia2022 Thank you for excluding them! They are not Chulym Turks, they are artists and musicians 'playing' this role. They do not sing in Chulym (rather, what exactly they sing is deliberately made quite non-audible due to the beat and throat-singing attempts). They might use my publications to actually sing the language, but I have no clue if they have.
There is a publication by J. G. Georgi (the English translation was published in London in 1780), there are some nice notes on the Chulym community.
Please note that the lady in the photo around 01 min is not Chulym Turkic, she is Selkup.
Otyken's members are of Chulym, Ket, Khakas, Dolgan, and Selkup ethnicity.
Also, their music is amazing! It's a mix of cultures, but I feel all deserve to be preserved so they are bringing awareness to the world in a non-academic way that may be more accessible to most people. I'm only on this video right now because I enjoy their music and came to learn more about each culture 😊
@@valeriyalemskaya2676 they have Chulum members, and they have songs sung in Chulum and their "attempts" of throat singing are authentic.
Andrew,
I normally don’t do this, but can’t help commenting on your video. First, thank you for your effort! Here are some important things I’d like to point out. I’ll use simple time tags (minute:second) for you to easily find what I refer to.
00:25; 00:31; 01:10; 07:52; 10:05; 11:30; 11:35 - photos of the Selkup (!), not Chulym Turks, which sadly quickly appear when searching for the images of the latter online
00:28 self-designation [taDar], not [taTar] - way, way different things! “TaDar” is a common Siberian self-identification of the Siberian Turkic groups (Shor, Khakas and Chulym) taken ‘back’ from the Russian Cossacks who had identified them as “Tatar” due to ‘recognising’ their languages to be Turkic
01:10 note, we have population ‘growth’! 2021 Census: 382 Chulym Turks!
2:15 written form ‘creation’ by Anderson & Harrison - NO! They only used transcription to document the language variety, and they suggested that the native speaker recording his language (Vassiliy ‘Vasya’ Gabov) use special characters for ‘writing’ the sounds non-existent in Russian (in his case they were “ғ” and “ҥ” chosen collaboratively, so to speak; much later he himself developed a “ӵ”, too). Still, this system of writing is still inconsistent, so we don’t call it an ‘alphabet’ (but we do have an ‘alphabet’ in the Krasnoyarsk variety of Middle Chulym, where the language itself differs and is maybe a little easier to write)
2:30 branch of Khakas - true only for the Middle Chulym, whereas what you describe about the history later is mostly about the Lower Chulym
2:40 true for the Krasnoyarsk variety, not the Teguldet one that Anderson & Harrison worked on (the soft “җ” [ʒ] is true for the Krasnoyarsk variety, not the Teguldet one, where there is, for instance, the voiced affricate “ӵ” [ʥ] non-existing in the former one)
3:20 true for the Middle Chulym, not the Lower Chulym
3:55 it’s rather the Selkup (Samoyed), not the Khanty (who only were settled along the Ob, not Chulym)
4:30-5:40 - true for Lower, not Middle Chulym (different ways of Turkic ‘emergence’ in the region, which also results in the dialects belonging to different Turkic linguistic sub-groups, too)
6:13 “…the population had taken a Tatar identity” - wrote above, not exactly ‘taking a Tatar identity’ - nothing in common with the Tatar in the Middle Chulym River flow.. It’s rather ‘self-identification’, not really ‘taking identity’
7:50 true for the Middle Chulym only, and rather for the very late 20th century only (the censuses)
9:15 Chulym Turks were never Islamic! What’s your source? Maybe some contacts, but no conversion really (there were many Bukhara missionaries in Siberia, but among the Tomsk Tatars, not [Lower] Chulym Turks!), though M. Pomorska does etymologize some recorded Chulym Turkic words as going back to the Arabic and Persian roots
9:50 the Chulym Turkic dialects were never a big language, so we can’t just ‘blame’ the Soviets for the language decline and vanishing - it’s a language that had not been formed as a unity, yet started to disappear (don’t want to use the word ‘die’, which might be a more accurate designation of the process, though)
10:33 “The Soviet Union having done so much to hurt the Chulym national identity” - oh my! please don’t use such harsh words! The Soviet Union scarecely knew the Chulym Turks existed! They did not specifically ‘hurt’ the Chulym Turks, or anyone else. It was a common policy which now results in similar processes among the [smaller] population groups like everywhere…
10:50 The ‘halving’ of the Chulym Turkic population is not exactly due to what you imply.. Or at least not only. The people did not vanish. The people from mixed marriages would rather identify themselves as someone else. I wrote a paper about it in 2013
11:45 wrong! They celebrate village festivals in both Pasechnoye and Teguldet, now annually
12:07 please do not use the word ‘occupation’! It was NOT like that in Siberia! The folks did want to become part of the Russian Tsardom. And no one among the indigenous people ever says this word
Respectfully,
Valeriya Lemskaya (been doing academic and field research among the Chulym Turks since 2005)
Hello! Thank you so much for taking the time to correct misconceptions and falsehoods in the video. I am just one guy who has an interest in the peoples and places of the Russian Federation, so it's lovely to get a professional academic to correct anything I have overlooked or got muddled.
Please do feel welcome to create a corrections video as clarity is important!
Otyken 👀
im not the only one haha
Otyken are not Chulym Turks.
hi . please make a video of nivkhs and them language and please put some audios of nivkh language
I will certainly be getting to the Nivkh people (though it may be some time as I am going through the ethnic groups alphabetically!).
Arkadas sen muthissin gercekten videolarin zevk ile seyrediliyor.
Thank you!
Среди Кыргызского народа тоже есть Род Чулум , Зулум из племени Мундуз
Ah, interesting! I had not come across them
😪It is sad to hear this language is almost dead
There is a very real chance that this will die out within our lifetime.
Sadly so, can confirm it based on my fieldwork data...