buymeacoffee.com/paulthird (if you get any benefit from what I do on this platform) 🤓 Also, incase you can't be bothered to watch the other videos which include more detail.. 1. Remember that the preamp in Auto eq is your output gain. Set your harman eq and canopener so they remain at same level to avoid clipping 2. If using fabfilter proq3 for harman in DAW you need to multiply the auto eq Q factor by 1.41 as pro q3 is pretty unique as it uses bi-quad filters. So a q factor of 0.7 in auto eq will be a q factor of 0.99 in pro q HIFIMAN ANANDA Nano thmn.to/thoprod/570129?offid=1&affid=1686 MIXING ON HEADPHONES PLAYLIST ua-cam.com/play/PLmcBOB8VmXMJWLjteAkum3HBZWpwh5hY4.html
and what do you do to listen to spotify references / youtube and stuff? meaning, how to you harman eq / add can opener to your computer output? thanks !
6:30 Cubase tip: place all your "listening" and "testing" plugins into an insert in Control Room - this way it can never affect your mix and you will not accidentally print it. Control Room also gives you 4 Cue Mixes for your artists, which you could also use for reference mixes or separate headphone out mixes, which can have their own corrections. I use mine with 2 output pairs into a little headphone amp for my musicians in the main room. You can quickly play them the mix or special mixes / reference material which may be adapted to their personal preferences.
This is an amazing and informative post, brother. If you don't mind, I'd like to add a few notes. Even if it’s the same brand and model, there will always be small frequency differences between headphones. No headphone model can deliver exactly the same response every time, so it's important to listen and adjust any EQ settings you've created based on measurements to suit your ears. Also, the output impedance of the headphone amp will affect the response of dynamic headphones. Not every dynamic headphone is affected, but many are. Generally, the rule is that the amp's output impedance should be about one-eighth of the headphone’s impedance for minimal distortion. For example, if your headphone is 32 ohms, the amp’s output impedance should be 4 ohms or less. This is one reason why planar magnetic headphones are recommended-most of them keep the same impedance across all frequencies. The EQ you use should be a minimum phase EQ, not linear phase. Headphones are analog devices and naturally come with a specific phase response. Using linear phase only applies EQ without correcting the phase, which can make the sound worse. With minimum phase, you’re correcting both the frequency and phase response, improving the sound. If you plan to rely heavily on headphones and want to make them central to your studio work-especially for production, mixing, and mastering-then it's essential to invest in a dedicated, high-quality headphone amp. Headphone amps allow headphones to perform at their best. When you go above the ideal mixing level for headphones, which is around 80-85 dB SPL, any distortion becomes harder to detect, no matter how high-quality the headphones are. After this level, it’s much more difficult to hear real distortion in your mix. Room simulations work well if they are calibrated specifically for your headphone model. For example, Slate VSX is a great option because they make both the software and the headphones, so calibration is more precise. Another good plugin is RealPhones, though it’s a bit less accurate since they don’t make their own headphones. No, Headphones won't damage your hearing compared to speakers, the sound pressure level will. You can work 8 hours a day at 80-85dbSPL but remember to take break. If your ears are tired, listening to pink noise for a couple of minutes at moderate level will help you to reset your hearing. Always remember to take care of your headphones, keep them in their box when not in use and clean them regularly. Clean and sterile ones last longer.
If your DAW has a monitoring buss make sure you utilize that for your monitoring plugins so you don't need to worry about disabling them when you go to render. As far as I'm aware Cubase, REAPER and as mentioned Studio One have this as option. There are probably more out there that I'm not aware of
Every DAW should have a listen bus. I still laugh when people go on about pro tools being the industry standard and then watch them rage as they send their client the mix with their monitor chain enabled 🤣
Have to say, Paul's video made a HUGE difference for me. I got into the ASR website, and I learned a lot about the tecnicallity of audio and especially Headphones. And I can't say thanks enough for learning that and for the recommendation. I have the L30 II with the Sundara and GOD it make a Night and Day difference. Your video about mixing in headphone is also really cool @mixdownonline
Good advice about not using wireless headphones with noise cancellation. I currently only have a Sennheiser HD 4.50R (essentially, a BTNC), but when mixing, I always disable ANC and plug into my audio interface. It makes a huge difference.
Because of this, I went to a store where it looks like every high end headphones are available for testing. I've found that the headphones you recommend have clear sounds especially for vocals or leads. While the headphones I use, ATH M20x and Beyer dynamic DT 700/900/Pro/X (idk the proper names but I tested the popular ones), sounds identical especially the headphones coloring or frequency response. ATH M20x and Beyer dynamic are both lower in volume when it comes to vocals or main leads. No wonder a hobbyist producer I know who uses Beyer dynamic DT 900 or 1000 something always has way too loud lead or vocals that makes the other instrumentals lower in volume. With my ATH M20x, when I created an EDM track (I'm a hobbyist too), I was struggling how loud my lead is when I test it on other speakers but on my headphones it's so low in volume. It was confusing on how low I should make my lead since it's so loud in other speakers but very low in my headphones. When I tested the headphones you recommend here in the comment section, the balance is good. Beyer dynamic and the headphones you recommend for beginners, hifi sundra open back iirc, have similar price range but hifi sundra is so clear while Beyer dynamic is close to ATH M20x which is way cheaper. Thanks for spreading your knowledge man. Helps a lot
When I did my first headphones only mix. With MorphIt and Sony MDR-7506. I until then never had better translation! Even on an iPhone its sounds awesome. Bought Slate VSX so that the next step: learning to use them. But yes: the reverb is ABSOLUTELY the one thing that can be an issue with headphones. Curious how it goes when I go VSX.
I love Hifiman for low end dynamics sub $1000. But once you get into the Focal Clear MG range, the low end, gets very good again. Also keep an eye on the HEDD-phones! This is a great series, very informative!
Here's a random question. In windows 10, is there any benefit to lowering the volume in the task bar and increasing it on your headphone amp, or is it just as well leaving it at 100?
Hello Paul, thanks for the video, subscribed! Would you recommend the Topping DX3 Pro + instead of the L30 mk II for use with an audio interface? Or would an L30 II suffice? I know that there are DACs inbuilt the audio interfaces, but would a DAC & AMP combo + the audio interface be more beneficial instead of simply using a headphone amp + audio interface? Or would that be counterproductive?
If you can, always choose the DAC amp route, especially if your interface has adat out that supports optical spdif. That way you can use the interface preamps for inputs and DAC amp for output. Or just buy a topping e2x2/e4x4 and have that as your interface
Hi Paul, thanks for all the useful info. I want to use the monitor line outs on my Apollo Solo trs balanced to go into a topping L50 amp in order to use the Hifiman he400se headphones. Bit worried about “double amplification” . The Apollo monitor outputs are amplified. Dont want to blow up the L50🙈 Any advice? Cheers Dennis
Thanks Paul, genuinely appreciate all of this - it’s been a complete game changer. I’ve been going in circles for years trying to make mixing on cans work. I’m going to order the nanos and the topping when I get paid. Would you recommend getting a Dac as well? Or are the convertors of a budget interface like an evo 4 good enough?
I mix to headphones primarily on topping dx7 pro+. If you want to get the best quality then get a dac amp. That way your speakers and monitors have the best of everything. Dx7 pro+ has multiple different digital inputs, 3 seperate headphone outs, and also 2 line outs for speakers, all controllable via a remote. Its the end game for DAC amps
Great video. RE - point no. 4 - surely adjust the output gain from the EQ plugin by the same amount as the maximum gain boost to compensate for the additional gain so you don't over-drive the headphones..?
So I have a question :) Your suggest is that the best way to mix on headphones is to use the Harman curve and crosstalk, avoiding the room reflections, etc. that come when you turn on any of the Realphones rooms. What is the difference between using Realphones rooms and real speakers in a real room? In both cases you get room character added into what you hear. The headphones/harman/crosstalk setup is certainly different that using a good speaker setup - is it then better or worse? You might hear subtleties better, but not in context of how they come off in a real room. Thanks for the great thought provoking vids - I've learned a lot from this channel...
Speakers in a room have variables that can change day to day. Your room interference can change by having the door slightly adjar, curtains drawn, window open, having more people in the room, slightly moving your speakers, listening position including if you are slouched or sitting upright. Mixing on speakers involves a lot of real world issues that can cause inconsistency in what you hear from day to day. Realphones tries to simulate that but in a fixed manner which is actually better as it gives you consistency without the drawbacks of room interference. It can model a room and simply choose to avoid certain aspects of interference ie nulls. The issue is that it involves artifically recreating not only the reverb in the room but also the phase and frequency relationship of the speaker with the room. This involves various layers of reverb and phase modulation that ultimately takes you away from the original source. It's causing phase irregularities and synthetically altering the sound in a way that tries to emulate said speaker in said room. The issue is that the characteristic of the speaker will never match that of the headphone ie. You can't get the low end detail of PMC on a pair of beyerdynamics. You can't achieve the transient detail or mid range detail of ATC on a pair of sennheisers. It can only recreate what it can within the limitation of the headphone itself. The software does the best it can but it's fundamentally flawed at the end of the day due to it having no control over headphone design. Mixing to harman with addition of crossfeed is the most true way of mixing as it doesn't alter the source anywhere near as much. No reverb, no nulls, no boundary interference, no listening position, better phase coherence. And plus it allows you to mix to the headphone you are using, not forcing the headphone to work to a simulation that it can't fully create. You know with harman that you can mix on 6 different headphones and all of them will leave you with just the characteristics of the design. Tonally they will be somewhat similar to an extent but they will allow you to judge each on their strengths. Think of it like being able to put every speaker in the same room, and it just so happens that every speaker is well suited to the room.
What a wonderful, useful reply! Thanks for taking the time to answer my question so completely. You’ve given me a lot to think through. I appreciate it!
I've found that not only using the convolution eq from AutoEQ for my different HP, at the same sample rate of my USB interface, and with minimum phase and the frequency response as low as possible sounded best, but also because I can load the convolution files directly into the monitoring chain of REAPER, and not rely on Equalizer APO which bypasses ASIO.
Be careful with convolution. If it's just a convolution of the parametric it's fine, but if its a sonarworks style "perfect match" to harman you may have a lot of phase distortion issues. May start to sound unnatural
@@PaulThird At least convolutions on autoeq have the same measurements as GraphicEQ (unlike the parametric), so perfectly matching the target for some headphones
As I said in the video, perfectly matching harman may involve too many bands which in turn causes phase distortions especially if it involves lots of narrow notches
Thanks for this amazing vid! Im gonna order me a pair of the hifimans and make the switch from dynamics. Im using an Apollo Solo at the moment, I wonder if the headphone amp in that interface is ok.
This is a great video. As my nearfield monitors are still good, but my room is not, i've invested in proper open back phones. Tracking was okay with proper closed back. I'm awaiting my order for planar magnetics, to use on my proper stereo home system (yes, it has an inbuilt phone amp)
Big thanks for your advice, Paul! For me Listening loud on headphones was always like looking into the sun. I did it very fast and not often to protect my hearing. (I already have tinnitus.) But 85 decibel/10 hours are not problematic. That's very good news for me. Although I can't believe it. I measured the loudness with a phone app and I found that a decibel above 60-65 already hurts my ears.
It takes time to adjust. I used to listen too quiet and then as soon as my ears adjusted that level became my norm. Now I instinctively know that level even if I'm using other people's setups. I naturally crank it to that level. But do try measuring with an actual SPL meter and not a phone app to ensure the correct level. If you really want to get into the weeds with more accuracy you can use a speaker calibration mic and use it alongside room eq wizards SPL meter
Thanks so much for the video! One question I would like to get your opinion on is if I should switch my akg k812 (i got them used for relatively cheap) for something like audeze mm100. The highs are really loud which fine for listening but that means I have to make my mixes with the same very crispy highs for them to translate which is hard for me to do since I am sensitive to high end. I do eq them to harman and it does help a ton but I feel like there is room for improvement. So I am thinking about buying something like mm100 which can be eq'd without any compromise basically, due to it being a planar and it will probably sound better too since it a 2023 headphone vs a 2012 one? Would really appreciate your point of view:)
Overpriced. Only offers 200mW at 32 ohm which is pitiful for its price. Even the topping e2x2 interface offers nearly 3x the power at 32 ohms. £550 for a headphone amp that can't adequately drive hungry low ohm phones ie planars is very poor. Some older hp amps would prioritise higher impedance cans which in 2024 is criminal. That's why I Advise the L30ii. There's not really anything that can outperform it and it's like £130-150
Thank you for sharing your experience Paul! With the high detail of a headphone such as the Ananda Nano, I'm wondering if you feel there is a greater tendency to focus on correcting very small things, such things that may not really make a difference to most listeners. I'm already usually very detail focused and a mix can take quite a long time. Also, for crossfeed, I deduce you prefer Can Opener vs the one in Realphones? Thanks!
You can't mix what you can't hear. It's all about referencing and learning what to touch and what to leave alone. You learn the nanos over time but it's better to have the detail than not have it at all I use canopener due to crossfeed being built into realphones. You cant seperate the crossfeed in realphones.
Hi have a pair and I love mine whats crazy is I get tonhesr things I can't in even more poor headphones what headphones would you recommend that for the video @@PaulThird
As I said in the video. Get a good pair of planars and then compare to your dynamics. The slam of the ananda nanos will rip your face off. Reveals every transient and the low end is so incredibly tight, fast, clean and detailed. It's remarkable. When you hear the slam of nanos or even Audeze LCD-X you realise what you dynamics don't give you. Hifiman sundara open backs are always what I advise for those starting out. Great average where they are very close to the slam of LCD-X but have a slightly better soundstage. Clean, detailed and I actually slightly prefer them to LCD-X and they are only like £220. Your ATH, DT, HD, MD.. All can't give you that planar detail and transient retrieval. They are just too slow and on the budget side sub £300 for dynamics you are usually guaranteed some coloured low end. The European and US manufacturers just can't match the quality of the Chinese at the same budget. Is what it is Its the same in the DAC market
I just had a listening session on the Sundara open back, oh my god.. I am buying them asap! One huge plus was the stability when eq-ing which I heard reviewers say. Usually when I eq the bass on dynamic headphones it de-stabilized other frequency bands while the sundaras were solid. I noticed the things you mentioned too!
Regarding headphone amps, I have actually been using an NAD 302 integrated stereo amplifier from the 90's. It's designed to drive audiophile speakers but my goodness it's a gem on my cans. I have Fostex RP60 Planars for my headphones and a pair of Linsoul IEM's
some bands on the frequency response of consumer grade headphones are deliberately boosted by the manufacturer to convince the end users to think they are hearing the real low end. ex: headphones with "extra bass boost" which cannot actually reproduce low end. I think the term studio headphones is used for the ones that has a rather linear frequency response.
Remember linear effectively means no distortion. Means its frequency response is not impacted due to non linearities of the system which in headphones would be the drivers and such. That's why planars are viewed as essentially linear because of their extremely low distortion levels which means that they can be easily eq'd without creating audible distortion. The same can't be said for a lot of dynamic "studio" headphones
I was about to pull the trigger on the new Ollo X1 . I currently own the s4x .The new ones come with calibration file and software. Do you think these (or the previous models) compete with the Ananda Nano ? I can't imagine how better than these premium models these headphones can be
Hi Paul, Scarlett 4th gen have higher-ish impedance, I'm using them with Ollo s5X's and they seem good enough. (Main Monitoring system is HEDD speakers + sub in a decently treated room) Do you reckon another headphone amp will really make a huge difference? I was under the impression that the Scarlett 4th gen is already much better than the 1st Gen I used before it decided to stop working one day.. Anyway dude, really appreciate your videos. Gonna buy you a coffee on that link
With it being 50 ohm output impedance and the ollos being 32 ohm I would personally get a headphone amp as you may have impedance matching issues. May cause dampening and colouration via low levels of distortion. You always want to get a headphone amp with minimum 1-2 ohm output impedance. 50 ohm is high especially when combined with low ohm headphones. 4th gen is only 32mW into 32 ohm from what I've read which isn't great. Scarletts are well known for having like the weakest headphone amps out there but the ollos are decently sensitive so you may be alright power wise if you crank it but tbh if you ask me or Ed Thorne about Scarletts for headphones.. Just get a seperate hp amp or a new interface
90mW at 32 ohm is low power compared to even topping e2x2 which is providing around 580mW. Depends on how sensitive the LCD-X is. I'm gonna guess it'll struggle but I can't say for sure without actually trying to get the level to 80-85db spl and then listening But considering the e2x2 is basically offering 6x the power I would guess that babyface will struggle a lot with hungry headphones
what do you think about mixing on a planar IEM's ? I know this is like a taboo question lol but IEM's are fairly detailed too compared to over ears in my opinion. i know the bass response will lack but in my case im not really looking good bass response in my mixes, i just need detailed and spacious mixes. If i EQ my planar IEM and use a room simulating plugin like dearVR monitor to check the spaciousness, will that translate well?
There's only one IEM that I've used that I would mix on and I'm still on the fence whether I can truly trust it. Always over ear for me if I have the choice
Most of the time I'm mixing with moondrop's chu II equalized to the harman curve, which they are naturally pretty close to, connected directly to a macbook pro cause they are very easy to drive. insane amount of detail for 20$ + whatever dac and eq you have around
Great learnings, thank you! I have just upgraded my headphone setup with planars and they are definitely a step up from my HD 650. For closed back, what would you recommend in the ~500 +/- 200 € price range? Cheers 🙏
Depends what you are looking for. If it's tracking there are many options, if it's for mixing, no closed backs in that price bracket for me. You'd need to go all the way up to the audeze LCD closed back for something I would reccomend for mixing
The sundara closed are pretty good. Me and Ed both use them on the podcast and we've not had any bleed issues. However you need a decent amp to drive them. The evo 16 needs to be at 85 just to get them to a listenable level for tracking and even at that the evo's distort a lot but it's common knowledge they have a shit headphone amps. So sundara closed are a good option but only with a good hp amp
Paul, would you recommend the Topping e2x2 for a headphone amp over the L30mk2 if I only have a cheap interface currently? My worry buying the L30 would be that my interface would be the weak link in the chain
Yes buy the E2X2 or E4X4. if it had adat expandability it would be my main interface in the control room. I still miss E4X4 for recording the podcast. A part of me is genuinely considering bringing it in back and connecting the analog chain to it so I can keep using it. The direct monitoring is awesome and so clear. The evo 16 headphone amp is terrible and I didnt think it would bother me but it does as I'm using the sundara closed for podcast and it's pushing the amp to its limit. The evo's direct monitoring is only sent to the analog outs so I can't use the topping dx7 pro+ for that purpose through spdif Quite infuriating
Great video Paul! So i use a pair of Audeze LCD X with the harman curve that you suggested and i have found it to be a big improvement on Sonarworks. So big thank you! for bringing that to my attention and i can see that using a dedicated headphone amp like the Topping would be a better alternative than plugging straight into my Apollo twin. But would that difference really be night and day ?
Yeah cause I don't like apollo headphone amps. I had an x6 and never used its DAC for speakers or headphone amp. Sounded coloured in the low end with this odd low mid build up that I'd hear even on the speakers through apollo. Made things sound muddy in comparison to the topping. When I was using the apollo x6 I was bypassing it's dac for the topping dx7 pro+
2 questions: 1. what are your thoughts on audeze lcd-x 2021 vs hifiman ananda? Any pros and cons of each, or is there a clear winner? 2. I just bought a RME babyface pro fs. Does it also have a subpar headphone amp?
There are many problems with standard ananda so my advice is always ananda nano. Nano's beat lcdx for slam and low end detail. They are faster and honestly nothing really beats them for low end, which is saying something as audeze have really nice low end, especially the close back LCD. Both don't have the best soundstage so comparing the 2, nanos always win for me. Babyface pro FS is a little light power wise so I'm unsure whether it's got enough juice to adequately power LCD-X. I can't say for sure but to put it into context, topping e2x2 has as much as 6x the power of babyface pro FS at 32 ohm.
None of those hifiman. Emrah uses ayra. Cant remember which one, maybe stealth but he thinks it's a very good average of nano and HE1000SE. I think that hifiman can excel at certain things where audeze normally just give you a very good average
Paul, my audio interface only has balanced outs. What would be the best way to connect the unbalanced Topping L30 II inputs to the outputs of my Presonus Quantum? I currently have a RME ADI2 Fs, but I'm thinking about selling it and replacing by a cheaper Topping Headphone amp. Thank you for the great content!
Same process. TS to RCA. It's still mono as it's seperate L&R so theres no issue. You can use TS with balanced out. The L30ii measures better than balanced amps so there's nothing to worry about
I have a pair of AKG K712, I know they are cheap but I am using them when I have to mix while streaming. At least they have a bit of low end, are they shit? I kind of like them although I really prefer mixing on my KALI in-8s.
Would it still be acceptable to drive the ananda nano's at 80-85db spl and then use canopener's equal loudness compensation output gain to listen at lower levels (70-75db spl) while still getting the same frequency response? I think RME also has this function but what are your thoughts on this?
No don't use the equal loudness thing in canopener. I always found it messes with translation. One of the reasons I know a few didn't like canopener at first. I always have safe mode off. It's very annoying that it has this on by default. Plus canopener goes before the DAC so you either drive the nanos at 80-85db SPL or you don't
I see. Is the compensation control's auto adaptive eq in canopener not accurate in terms of getting the right slam and bass and does it mess with the soundstage? (For example lowering the volume inside canopener's output gain to say -16db to get the same levels as I would listening at 80-85db at 0db) If so, I'll just stick to listening at 80-85db spl with the output gain straight up at 0.
Yeah avoid anything that unnecessarily alters the eq. Safe mode alters the tonal balance in a way I've never liked. Same with other people. Canopener without safe mode slightly alters the frequency response still but it's not as noticeable as safe mode
I hear ya on the noise cancelling wireless headphones, sometimes I'm playing round making beats etc on them just for convenience when I need to get up and check something every 5 minutes , very well aware how bad they are for accuracy.
Question.. The only planar HPs I've owned were the HiFiman he400se. They had this thing where if you put any pressure on the cups you'd hear that thin membrane inside making a crinkling sounds. Question is, are all planars that sensitive or was it just because it was a cheaper planar?
I've never experienced that but at £100 it's possible tbh. I wouldn't expect great QC at that price. Tbh though I don't really ever put pressure on the cups, I just stick them on my head and mix haha
@@PaulThird I hear ya! It must have been the cheapness in the build. It wasn’t like i would push on them intentionally. I just happened to hear the mebrane making noises when adjust them or something. And of course, once I knew it was thing I did do it again n purpose a few times to try and understand what was going on. I do remember that one side seemed worse than the other too. But it was really annoying. Kinda made me turned ff by planars. So it’s good to know you’ve never had any weirdness with the higher end ones. Thanks!
@@PaulThirdmost others would say the room first. i had treatment first in a studio before. but im starting over. so maybe i could do it differently this time. Thanks!
Excellent video/info and channel Paul. Question: Why are Mix Engineers still mixing to a one size fits all, rather than offering different mixes for different scenarios, and offer those options ie (headphone mix, room/speaker mix), car mix etc - especially when most music listeners listen to Spotify et al on shitty phone speakers ? I guess in days gone by, when people/homes had radio and home stereo systems, there wasn't as much of a stress and hassle with over mixing for all scenarios like there is now. Has streaming put a complete spanner in the works as far as mixing & mastering professionally is concerned ? Ive seen quite a few mix related videos/Documentaries where the Engineers on analogue gear didn't over think their processes, they just got on with it ? Why are we so fixated on one mix, for a set of different listening scenarios ? Would it not be better for revenue income to offer different mixes for different scenarios ? Cheers
Cause there's no way of streaming platforms being able to stream different mixes based on exactly what the playback device is. Plus it's too subjective as all cars sound different, as do Bluetooth speakers, laptops, headphones etc etc Plus it's hard enough getting revisions on 1 stereo mix, never mind 5 or 6 haha the whole process would take weeks. Atmos is trying to get closer via the way it adapts to the monitor layout which includes binaural but it's just not practical to get translation to every device so we pick a standard which is speakers in a treated room and everything revolves around that
@@PaulThird I reckon Mix & Mastering Engineers, more so the former, had an easier time of it mixing all those iconic songs we know and love, as opposed to today's music/releases. I wonder if Film/Video Editors have similar situation where they colour grade etc for Netflix etc. I also think the demise of home stereos/speaker systems has led to the wee sonic minefield of now, with so many platforms to average out a mix for. 5 or 6 mix revisions wid keep yae on yer toes !! lol
Is 70-75 dB good enough to mix on? since I've recently got very mild to mildly potent (oxymoron😵💫is all can use to describe it atm) tinnitus (depending on sleep or health) from listening on headphones at that level
I wouldn't reccomend that level personally. You are missing the real slam and bass detail mixing that low for me. Headphones need adequately driven. At 70-75db you are in the realm of fletcher munson also getting in the way. Maybe try the apple headphones. I think they may have some auto adaptive eq in there that changes the response in relation to the level but I'm not 100% sure. Try looking for a headphone with high sensitivity and is easily driven and try and maybe invest in some tantrum audio angry boxes so you can still judge the transients as they are very fast and compact. It's the bass that id worry about most. Maybe invest in a sub and see if you can treat the room enough where you can trust it. 70-75db is more casual listening for me but if you can push it more towards 75db you might still make it work with more sensitive headphones
I’m looking for the best all rounder headphones for mixing (meaning, if you only had ONE set to mix on). Was leaning towards the Ananda Nanos but concerned about soundstage as you said mid channel is so focused, and I understand you monitor on a second pair of headphones for soundstage specifically (Sony MDR-MV1 if I’m correct?) Out of the Sundaras or HE1000se, which is the best ‘all rounder’ for mixing? (Fucking the budget off 🤣) Again, please assume these are the only headphones you’d own.
@@RicherPodcast out those 3. sundara open back but only due to the fact that nothing I've heard sounds as good as HE1000SE for resolution and soundstage. You could class it as too much of a good thing in regards to realism to other systems. Nano's lack the soundstage of your Sennheiser, Sony etc Sundara sit in the middle but like say LCD-X they don't really excel any anything. They just kinda do everything really well but if you want the full detail then you need to mix it up and combine other headphones If it was me I'd choose Nano's because that's what I've done. I Sold the sundara cause I had the nano. If I had no other headphone I would just use speakers for soundstage I can't give up that low end detail of nano now I have it. Too much of a time saver
@@PaulThird understood! So which would you say is the best for translation of soundstage between those 3, and the nv1s? Obvs wouldn’t but the nv1s if it’s the only pair of headphones I could own, but curious non the less.
Jesus...live a little eh 😜 70db is SOOO quite to me. If I've got my planars at that level I've got hardly no slam, no real bass definition. I always find levels like 70db is where you just want to casually listen. Potter about and have it in the background which is fine. I'll listen at that level if I still want to hear my surroundings a bit but doing any audio work it's way too quiet for me haha
@@PaulThird I suppose that’s using the noise cancelling too so your right, more casual listening. But I would say even when I’m writing and playing guitar stuff with my axe fx into my monitors I’m not going above 80…I think loudish conversation level is what I aim for.
I think 80-85db spl is a fine line if you have neighbours. It's loud but it always sounds right to me. Again Fletcher Munson playing it's part. Theres no way I could have neighbours with my atmos room. It would probably need to be 70ish, especially with the sub and the LFE being +10db louder than the rest of the speakers. Atmos basically requires 80-85db spl when setting levels. Trust me when that LFE hits in certain mixes that haven't done the +10db, my ceiling lights rattle haha Makes a lot of sense when you watch movies cause it genuinely sounds like you are in the cinema in my room with actual low frequency effects but I think many have not got the memo for music and that's caused an issue where certain mixes use the LFE for the bass and i know if i had neighbors there are definitely noise complaints going in haha I think that's part of the reason why many get a bit timid cause it's not loud where you are in pain, but it's too loud for a house that has people living in it. more the low end than anything else
I'm looking at the Focal Hadenys as potentially the dynamic headphones that give the planar like quality in the bass as well as the punch that Focal headphones have and are known for and also they seem to be pretty close to harman target out of the box, yeah a bit more expensive but still seems to be reasonably priced. (btw. I have Sundara 2020 rev and heard tons of Planars)
I just can't see it at that price tbh as Emrah has focal clear MG, Ive also tried them and they don't do the planar thing. The clear sound good for dynamics but I doubt if I (or Emrah who has tried basically everything) have never heard dynamics to date that can match the slam, speed and low end detail of many planars, that the cheaper hadyness will compete. If you want quality bass and fast transients just get Hifiman Ananda nano. No point playing with £600 dynamics to match planars when you can get the real deal (nanos) for £400. I had a client in the studio last night who owns the HEDDphones and Focal ST atmos room. As soon as he heard the nanos he knew exactly what I've been talking about in regards to low end detail and transients. HE1000SE absolutely blew him away though, as is the case when most try them at first as no other headphone are as resolving with as detailed imaging as the HE's Be interesting to hear how the focal compares to the sundara though
What do you make of the oratory1990 curves? He gives you a 10 and 5 band option in the PDFs. I’ve found that his adjustments are sometimes closer to harmen than I can get AutoEQ (Without using excessive bands). Any thoughts on his curves specifically? Thanks!
@@PaulThird gotcha! So if an oratory curve is available, are the 10 band version preferable in that case (apposed to using less than 4). …is the recommendation for using less than 4 bands mostly for if you’re making a your own curve by ear?
@@PaulThird What would you say if the low end is still very far off with Auto EQ, even with a lot of (10) bands? For example, the oratory measurement WITHOUT AutoEQ actually matches the lows perfectly, but using that same measurement inside of AutoEQ completely throws off the low end. I’ve talked to oratory and can confirm that the measurements are the same, but it’s AutoEQ’s automatic adjustments that are throwing off the measurement. In an ideal world, it would surely have been great to have the default AutoEQ values match the original measurements from the third party, i.e. oratory1990, Rtings, etc. Note: This is also considering what you said about not being overly obsessive on matching everything exactly to harman, but I’m genuinely having trouble matching low end anywhere near close to harman when using AutoEQ.
HD 800s, ARYA stealth, Stellia .. all EQ'd, very good solutions HD 600 i use the most, i guess comfy is a biggy😅 Stellia has good imaging, ARYA is a Movie Theatre with tons of woofers, HD 800s light, comfy, very good sound (EQ'd) also decent bassy i have like 8 pairs of highend headphones left from my 'journey' and used geithain speakers before nothing beats an EQ'd Headphone its like seeing clear and sharp after decades of boozed eyeside😁 sidenote: an EQ'd HD600 is 90% of what ur ear thinks as 'WOW'
Sennheisers are just too slow and mushy in the lows for me. Good soundstage. They represent the image well and allow you judge the song but I just dont get the critical details out of them for mixing. I can use them for an overall picture which is handy but I use the Sony MDR-MV1 for that (honestly comfort beyond comfort. You forget you are wearing cans with those)
@@MuzdokOfficial planars have been one of the biggest reasons why a lot of speaker guys have started mixing more on headphones. Especially audezes. They have become a bit of an industry standard but I would argue Hifiman have the edge as they can excel in a particular thing where audeze tend to kind just do everything pretty well. They are never the fastest or the widest or the most resolving but they give a very good average which is why many have gravitated towards them. That and they are American, that always helps to get it into the industry 🤣
@@PaulThird just looked at advanced mode (after asking dSoniq). It seems you can turn on calibration and the crossfeed mode without room simulation. Is that not as good as CanOpener with EqMac? Also, any opinion on Oratory1990’s calibration for the Ananda Nano?
Must be a new addition. I asked ages ago and there didn't seem to be a way to do it. Did they tell you exactly how to do it without enabling any of the room sim? There is no oratory nano calibration on auto eq as far as I'm aware. Ananda stealth but no nano. It's somebody elses measurement
@@PaulThird they referred me to the manual. 😂If you change to advanced mode, you can turn on calibration, cross feed, and room simulation each independently.
Seems that the angle and HRTF is there version of crossfeed which can now be used independently but jesus why do they not just call it crossfeed. Id need to get my head round it to see what the ideal settings would be
Speakers wise im using the kali's in the atmos room a lot. Gonna move the edifiers back in the control room cause I prefer them in there. It's way too hard to get perspective when you AB against speakers with a sub in a super treated room. You just really miss the way that the sub fills out everything in comparison. I think the edifiers are a bit low mid shy so they work amazingly well in the control room which has a bit of a low mid build up
I love the content you put into your videos Paul, but every time I watch one, I end up knowing less than I did before. A harmon EQ curve will differ from headphone to headphone, so is there a chart anywhere I can say. OK these are my headphones how should I set up the EQ?
It'll be fine. It's just a bit finicky to set up and use at first. I use realphones standalone for desktop listening just cause I have it as an option and can load up to 3 manual eq's
Funny, I'm using dynamic headphones (Dennon AHD2000s) to cross check my choices in the low end with my planars (Sundaras), and finding them quite helpful 😂Then again, the Denon's are reputed to be exceptional in their bass representation. So far, I'm finding I still need the dynamics to help me make the best decisions in the bass, but perhaps that will be less of a need over time as I learn the Sundaras more
If you are eq'ing the sundaras to harman the low end should be pretty spot on. They do need a bit of a bass lift though for harman so always ensure that they are eq'd as sundaras are very bass light stock
@@PaulThird I'm not sure that I am, though the correction I'm using (Acustica Sienna) does add quite a bit of bass and shift the tonality of the top end quite a bit
@@PaulThird quick link or website where I can find the harman curves? And then do I just plot them in Pro-Q 3 or similar? Or do you have a video explaining how to do this?
Hi Paul, I mix TV broadcasts on a set of Ollo S4X with a RME ADI 2 pro. I noticed you commented that you have both Ollo’s and HiFiMans. Do you feel that I would benefit from a step up in translation with the HiFiman Nano’s?
I would say so as the ollos are pretty slow transient wise. Nano's will give you every hyper critical detail which may be good for broadcast. You've just gotta be careful cause it shows you every click, pop, squeak. It's so incredibly fast in the mid channel so you would have to learn them a bit as you may start to over fix at first but if you want a headphone thats revealing it's the nanos. I didn't use them on this video and I changed my voice over chain a bit and I can hear where I've missed some of the top end transients in my voice. It needs a bit of spiff just to tame those very sharp top end T's that are picked up by the JZ BH2. Honestly that mic picks up every transient put in front of it so I need to watch that. I was using fast attack compression before and changed it to slow this week as I was unsure if I was distorting in places trying to catch the peaks. The nanos would have been screaming at me to tame the top end transients haha
@@PaulThird Thanks for the detailed reply. I forgot to mention that I did have a pair of Audeze LCD-X (planar) for a short time, but wasn't able to get past how strange and "boxy" the midrange was. Not sure if that's inherent in all planars, or if it was just unique to the Audeze.
At 26:00 this is bad advice. 80 dB is way too loud for headphone listening. Sound obeys an inverse square law whereby sound exponentially decays in the air. An SPL of 80 at 2 feet distance becomes 54 dB. 2 feet is typical near field monitor listening. Headphones are 2 inches and enclosed! 80 is 80! Don't listen too loud.
If 80db SPL C was too loud myself and Emrah Celik would be deaf after years of doing this. Emrah mixes and masters hundreds upon hundreds of records every year. He works daily at that level. Has been for many many years. He's not deaf, he's actually more successful. The key is taking breaks. Not distance. SPL is SPL. Transients will sound more apparent but it's still relative to the sound that reaches your ears. SPL is SPL regardless of the distance. If I have my speakers at 80-85db spl at my listening position and my headphones at the same level, the speakers aren't any quieter when I take the headphones off. It's relatively the same loudness. The speakers themselves are theoretically quieter due to the reflections and the room adding on top of that but it all combines to the same end SPL level reaching your ears. Yes, the headphones are louder than the speakers, but not if I stick my ear right up against a speaker as that SPL would be much much louder. So what would I need to do? I would need to reduce the level of the speaker to adjust for the distance to my ear. No difference to being in a very small bedroom with a Bluetooth speaker. You set the volume relative to the distance. Also what you are forgetting that SPL is massively impacted by bass energy. That's why 80db on headphones eq'd to harman is not perceived as loud as not with eq. The bass response is closer which means that it impacts the measurement a lot more. I've tested it. You lose headroom. That's why 85db SPL C in a room with a sub can be perceived as quieter as say NS10's at 85db spl because there is more focus on the upper frequencies which in turn make them louder. It's the same sound pressure level but we perceive it as louder due to the conture of our ears and how inner hairs of the cochlea shape the sound before it reaches our actual ear drum. Our ears have a tilt and our sensitivity to frequencies vary but relatively we are less sensitive to low frequencies and more sensitive to higher frequencies Headphones offer full range response, especially when eq'd to harman so 80db SPL on headphones is nowhere near as loud as you think as the bass takes up so much of the dynamic range. Either way. If something is too loud your ears tell you. If you listen too quiet at say 65-70db then of course 80-85db is gonna sound too loud at first. Yours ears adapt. I would never mix to a level that was physically hurting my ears I can mix 4-5 hours at 80-85db spm, zero breaks, no fatigue, and it's just a normal level to me now As I said in the video. Years of exposure at that level and my hearing test came back absolutely normal. Explain that
@@PaulThird First, thank you for the response and thanks for all your videos. Look for the inverse-square-law-sound-calculator on google, punch in the numbers and tell me what is the SPL at your ears.
Punched in 85db spl. Put in 2cm distance for both point sources. Which is the same for both ears in headphones and speakers as it's the same distance for each ear. Came back as the same as the source spl regardless of distance. Put in 1m.. 85db spl 5m.. 85db spl All that calculation shows is difference in spl in relation to distance, in relation to another distance. So in headphones it tells you that if you take the headphones off and sit 1m away from the headphones the sound you hear is about 70db spl at that distance. Well that's obvious. We all know that spl increases or decreases the further or closer you are from the source. That's simple science. However, the calculation tells you that if you input the same distance for each ear (which in reality are the end point source) then the SPL remains the same regardless of the distance. So 1cm at 85db spl is 85 db spl 1m at 85db spl is 85db spl Sound pressure level is sound pressure level. If there was a difference in fixed spl in relation to distance then the calculation would show differing spl when the ears were closer or further from the source at the same SPL So say if you put in 1cm for both sources, the attenuated spl would read 85db spl.. 0 attenuation. If you put 1m for both sources the attenuated SPL would read 82 spl. So 3db of attenuation. But that doesn't happen because SPL is SPL. When you listen to 85 SPL. It doesn't matter if the distance is 1cm, 1m, 5m, 10m. If it measures at 85db spl at that distance then it's 85db spl. How we perceive that spl is the thing that may differ but the SPL remains the same. So if I'm at 1m distance at 85db and move back 4m then of course It'll be quieter. But when i raise the speaker level to 85db spl. Guess what... Its 85db spl reaching my ear. That's the context to what I am saying Thats why myself and Emrah have no form of hearing loss after years of mixing at that level on headphones. Because it isn't too loud, especially when you bring harman into the equation as it adds more bass which means that the low end in headphones have a much larger impact on the SPL measurement as it's more bass energy in a more enclosed space. 85db SPL with harman will be perceived quieter than 85db spl on headphones that exhibit a lot less bass with emphasised mid range due to how sensitive the ear is to mid range. The SPL is the same, but the perceived loudness due to frequency is what changes. If I'm in my atmos room and switch off the sub so all I'm getting is 120hz up. If I measure 85db spl and compare that to 85db spl with sub on. The speakers with the sub off will feel a lot louder to my ears as the sub plays such a large role in the overall energy. It's just that ours ears are less sensitive to lower frequencies which means that it's perceived quieter. The low frequencies from the sub take up so much headroom that you need less level from your speakers to produce 85db spl, compared to with the sub off which has a lot more headroom which means it requires more speaker level in order to produce 85db spl. So theoretically speaking, the sub off measurement is actually louder to a certain degree as we have increased the actual power going to the loudspeaker which in turn is producing more energy in the region that our ears are more sensitive to. But due to the nature of acoustic sound which has most energy in the lows and less in the highs, it measures the same due to energy per frequency in relation to SPL. If we are talking SPL in relation to frequency response.. Then we are talking a completely different situation that can get pretty complex rather quickly
@@PaulThird I thought about this too, and I completely agree with your comment on frequency dependent SPL. Mid range SPL can damage hearing whereas the same SPL at the low end (or anywhere out of the "midrange") would not cause the damage. Using the Harman curve does indeed help there however I do see alot of people ducking the mids even further. In particular for EDM that is destined for clubs/concerts. I also thought about room measurements from speaker to ear and the formula I shared, 1/distance. That formula applies in open space or an anechoic chamber. In a room, reflections will cause the sound to remain louder because the listener will be hearing reflections (whether they know it or not). I once did a test of speakers in my backyard and it is indeed eye opening how fast the sound falls off. It is not at all like a room, any room, even a treated room, even a "perfect" room. Note that VSX has rooms, implying the room has a signature sound. There is no "anechoic" VSX preset. I bought VSX on your recommendation video and love it. I do most of my work on audeze and also followed your Harmon advice. I use a autoeq and apply a LP eq because I can hear the smudge of min phase. Smoothed curves keep preringing to a minimum. As I dig deeper into this I do see that auditioning is best in multiple dimensions, that is why VSX is so great. Plus I'm adding some of my own convolutions for audeze HPs. Are there any impulse response libraries you recommend for room/space emulations? Thanks for the detailed response. Big ups.
I only mix with AKG k240s. They sound like crap. Flat. Lifeless. No color. But you hear everything and if you can get your mix to sound great through these things they will sound great pretty much everywhere. At least that is my experience.
Concerning the 80/85db exposure, there is a major factor related to safety which is the distance to the audio source. You can mix safely at 85 db at 3 meters from your speakers all day long. But with headphones and that kind of proximity, it is less safe, much less safe actually. You can easily tell by the ear fatigue.
It's all relative to the sound pressure level reaching your ears. 85db SPL reaching your ears from speakers and 85db SPL reaching your ears from headphones is 85db SPL. Regardless of the distance.. It's 85db SPL. If it was unsafe mine and Emrahs hearing would be absolutely shot after years of listening at that level. Emrah's been mixing and mastering professionally on headphones daily, long hours at those levels for much longer than me. Taking regular breaks is the most important factor, not distance.
Ear fatigue on headphones is caused by other factors entirely, try slapping canopener on your monitoring fx buss and you'll definitely notice a reduction in ear fatigue.
@@EdwinDekker71 possibly also the sharpness of transients using headphones and lack of natural reverb which is similar to being in acoustically dead room when wearing closed back headphones but the 85dB should be safe though I also prefer lower volume for midrange clarity and compensate the bass with little extra bass boost to hear that similarly to 85dB so low thd headphones in bass region especially is necessary starting point of good headphones...
buymeacoffee.com/paulthird (if you get any benefit from what I do on this platform) 🤓
Also, incase you can't be bothered to watch the other videos which include more detail..
1. Remember that the preamp in Auto eq is your output gain. Set your harman eq and canopener so they remain at same level to avoid clipping
2. If using fabfilter proq3 for harman in DAW you need to multiply the auto eq Q factor by 1.41 as pro q3 is pretty unique as it uses bi-quad filters. So a q factor of 0.7 in auto eq will be a q factor of 0.99 in pro q
HIFIMAN ANANDA Nano thmn.to/thoprod/570129?offid=1&affid=1686
MIXING ON HEADPHONES PLAYLIST ua-cam.com/play/PLmcBOB8VmXMJWLjteAkum3HBZWpwh5hY4.html
and what do you do to listen to spotify references / youtube and stuff? meaning, how to you harman eq / add can opener to your computer output? thanks !
Realphones on desktop
6:30 Cubase tip: place all your "listening" and "testing" plugins into an insert in Control Room - this way it can never affect your mix and you will not accidentally print it. Control Room also gives you 4 Cue Mixes for your artists, which you could also use for reference mixes or separate headphone out mixes, which can have their own corrections. I use mine with 2 output pairs into a little headphone amp for my musicians in the main room. You can quickly play them the mix or special mixes / reference material which may be adapted to their personal preferences.
This is an amazing and informative post, brother. If you don't mind, I'd like to add a few notes.
Even if it’s the same brand and model, there will always be small frequency differences between headphones. No headphone model can deliver exactly the same response every time, so it's important to listen and adjust any EQ settings you've created based on measurements to suit your ears. Also, the output impedance of the headphone amp will affect the response of dynamic headphones. Not every dynamic headphone is affected, but many are. Generally, the rule is that the amp's output impedance should be about one-eighth of the headphone’s impedance for minimal distortion. For example, if your headphone is 32 ohms, the amp’s output impedance should be 4 ohms or less. This is one reason why planar magnetic headphones are recommended-most of them keep the same impedance across all frequencies.
The EQ you use should be a minimum phase EQ, not linear phase. Headphones are analog devices and naturally come with a specific phase response. Using linear phase only applies EQ without correcting the phase, which can make the sound worse. With minimum phase, you’re correcting both the frequency and phase response, improving the sound.
If you plan to rely heavily on headphones and want to make them central to your studio work-especially for production, mixing, and mastering-then it's essential to invest in a dedicated, high-quality headphone amp. Headphone amps allow headphones to perform at their best.
When you go above the ideal mixing level for headphones, which is around 80-85 dB SPL, any distortion becomes harder to detect, no matter how high-quality the headphones are. After this level, it’s much more difficult to hear real distortion in your mix.
Room simulations work well if they are calibrated specifically for your headphone model. For example, Slate VSX is a great option because they make both the software and the headphones, so calibration is more precise. Another good plugin is RealPhones, though it’s a bit less accurate since they don’t make their own headphones.
No, Headphones won't damage your hearing compared to speakers, the sound pressure level will. You can work 8 hours a day at 80-85dbSPL but remember to take break. If your ears are tired, listening to pink noise for a couple of minutes at moderate level will help you to reset your hearing.
Always remember to take care of your headphones, keep them in their box when not in use and clean them regularly. Clean and sterile ones last longer.
If your DAW has a monitoring buss make sure you utilize that for your monitoring plugins so you don't need to worry about disabling them when you go to render.
As far as I'm aware Cubase, REAPER and as mentioned Studio One have this as option. There are probably more out there that I'm not aware of
Every DAW should have a listen bus. I still laugh when people go on about pro tools being the industry standard and then watch them rage as they send their client the mix with their monitor chain enabled 🤣
Awesome follow on this topic Paul! Still learning about all of this, sharing my experience as I go. My next step, a good headphone amp.
If you want I can set you up with Rico from Topping
Thanks, mate! I'll send you an email@@PaulThird
Have to say, Paul's video made a HUGE difference for me. I got into the ASR website, and I learned a lot about the tecnicallity of audio and especially Headphones. And I can't say thanks enough for learning that and for the recommendation. I have the L30 II with the Sundara and GOD it make a Night and Day difference. Your video about mixing in headphone is also really cool @mixdownonline
Good advice about not using wireless headphones with noise cancellation. I currently only have a Sennheiser HD 4.50R (essentially, a BTNC), but when mixing, I always disable ANC and plug into my audio interface. It makes a huge difference.
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Because of this, I went to a store where it looks like every high end headphones are available for testing.
I've found that the headphones you recommend have clear sounds especially for vocals or leads.
While the headphones I use, ATH M20x and Beyer dynamic DT 700/900/Pro/X (idk the proper names but I tested the popular ones), sounds identical especially the headphones coloring or frequency response. ATH M20x and Beyer dynamic are both lower in volume when it comes to vocals or main leads. No wonder a hobbyist producer I know who uses Beyer dynamic DT 900 or 1000 something always has way too loud lead or vocals that makes the other instrumentals lower in volume.
With my ATH M20x, when I created an EDM track (I'm a hobbyist too), I was struggling how loud my lead is when I test it on other speakers but on my headphones it's so low in volume. It was confusing on how low I should make my lead since it's so loud in other speakers but very low in my headphones.
When I tested the headphones you recommend here in the comment section, the balance is good.
Beyer dynamic and the headphones you recommend for beginners, hifi sundra open back iirc, have similar price range but hifi sundra is so clear while Beyer dynamic is close to ATH M20x which is way cheaper.
Thanks for spreading your knowledge man. Helps a lot
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When I did my first headphones only mix. With MorphIt and Sony MDR-7506. I until then never had better translation! Even on an iPhone its sounds awesome. Bought Slate VSX so that the next step: learning to use them.
But yes: the reverb is ABSOLUTELY the one thing that can be an issue with headphones. Curious how it goes when I go VSX.
Canopener + morphit works great for me
I love Hifiman for low end dynamics sub $1000. But once you get into the Focal Clear MG range, the low end, gets very good again.
Also keep an eye on the HEDD-phones! This is a great series, very informative!
Here's a random question. In windows 10, is there any benefit to lowering the volume in the task bar and increasing it on your headphone amp, or is it just as well leaving it at 100?
Leave volume in computer at max
19:42 I almost spat out my tea!
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Hello Paul, thanks for the video, subscribed! Would you recommend the Topping DX3 Pro + instead of the L30 mk II for use with an audio interface? Or would an L30 II suffice? I know that there are DACs inbuilt the audio interfaces, but would a DAC & AMP combo + the audio interface be more beneficial instead of simply using a headphone amp + audio interface? Or would that be counterproductive?
If you can, always choose the DAC amp route, especially if your interface has adat out that supports optical spdif. That way you can use the interface preamps for inputs and DAC amp for output.
Or just buy a topping e2x2/e4x4 and have that as your interface
Hi Paul, thanks for all the useful info. I want to use the monitor line outs on my Apollo Solo trs balanced to go into a topping L50 amp in order to use the Hifiman he400se headphones. Bit worried about “double amplification” . The Apollo monitor outputs are amplified.
Dont want to blow up the L50🙈
Any advice?
Cheers Dennis
No that's how it's connected. no issues
Thanks Paul, genuinely appreciate all of this - it’s been a complete game changer. I’ve been going in circles for years trying to make mixing on cans work.
I’m going to order the nanos and the topping when I get paid.
Would you recommend getting a Dac as well? Or are the convertors of a budget interface like an evo 4 good enough?
I mix to headphones primarily on topping dx7 pro+. If you want to get the best quality then get a dac amp. That way your speakers and monitors have the best of everything.
Dx7 pro+ has multiple different digital inputs, 3 seperate headphone outs, and also 2 line outs for speakers, all controllable via a remote.
Its the end game for DAC amps
@@PaulThird absolute legend, thank you!
Amazing detail yet straightforward video. Kudos
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Great video. RE - point no. 4 - surely adjust the output gain from the EQ plugin by the same amount as the maximum gain boost to compensate for the additional gain so you don't over-drive the headphones..?
Yeah.. I knew there was something I forgot haha
So I have a question :) Your suggest is that the best way to mix on headphones is to use the Harman curve and crosstalk, avoiding the room reflections, etc. that come when you turn on any of the Realphones rooms. What is the difference between using Realphones rooms and real speakers in a real room? In both cases you get room character added into what you hear. The headphones/harman/crosstalk setup is certainly different that using a good speaker setup - is it then better or worse? You might hear subtleties better, but not in context of how they come off in a real room.
Thanks for the great thought provoking vids - I've learned a lot from this channel...
Speakers in a room have variables that can change day to day. Your room interference can change by having the door slightly adjar, curtains drawn, window open, having more people in the room, slightly moving your speakers, listening position including if you are slouched or sitting upright.
Mixing on speakers involves a lot of real world issues that can cause inconsistency in what you hear from day to day.
Realphones tries to simulate that but in a fixed manner which is actually better as it gives you consistency without the drawbacks of room interference. It can model a room and simply choose to avoid certain aspects of interference ie nulls.
The issue is that it involves artifically recreating not only the reverb in the room but also the phase and frequency relationship of the speaker with the room. This involves various layers of reverb and phase modulation that ultimately takes you away from the original source. It's causing phase irregularities and synthetically altering the sound in a way that tries to emulate said speaker in said room.
The issue is that the characteristic of the speaker will never match that of the headphone ie. You can't get the low end detail of PMC on a pair of beyerdynamics. You can't achieve the transient detail or mid range detail of ATC on a pair of sennheisers. It can only recreate what it can within the limitation of the headphone itself. The software does the best it can but it's fundamentally flawed at the end of the day due to it having no control over headphone design.
Mixing to harman with addition of crossfeed is the most true way of mixing as it doesn't alter the source anywhere near as much. No reverb, no nulls, no boundary interference, no listening position, better phase coherence. And plus it allows you to mix to the headphone you are using, not forcing the headphone to work to a simulation that it can't fully create. You know with harman that you can mix on 6 different headphones and all of them will leave you with just the characteristics of the design. Tonally they will be somewhat similar to an extent but they will allow you to judge each on their strengths.
Think of it like being able to put every speaker in the same room, and it just so happens that every speaker is well suited to the room.
What a wonderful, useful reply! Thanks for taking the time to answer my question so completely. You’ve given me a lot to think through. I appreciate it!
I've found that not only using the convolution eq from AutoEQ for my different HP, at the same sample rate of my USB interface, and with minimum phase and the frequency response as low as possible sounded best, but also because I can load the convolution files directly into the monitoring chain of REAPER, and not rely on Equalizer APO which bypasses ASIO.
Be careful with convolution. If it's just a convolution of the parametric it's fine, but if its a sonarworks style "perfect match" to harman you may have a lot of phase distortion issues. May start to sound unnatural
@@PaulThird At least convolutions on autoeq have the same measurements as GraphicEQ (unlike the parametric), so perfectly matching the target for some headphones
As I said in the video, perfectly matching harman may involve too many bands which in turn causes phase distortions especially if it involves lots of narrow notches
Thanks for this amazing vid! Im gonna order me a pair of the hifimans and make the switch from dynamics. Im using an Apollo Solo at the moment, I wonder if the headphone amp in that interface is ok.
Get a headphone amp. I had an apollo x6 and can confirm that they are not great
This is a great video. As my nearfield monitors are still good, but my room is not, i've invested in proper open back phones. Tracking was okay with proper closed back. I'm awaiting my order for planar magnetics, to use on my proper stereo home system (yes, it has an inbuilt phone amp)
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Big thanks for your advice, Paul! For me Listening loud on headphones was always like looking into the sun. I did it very fast and not often to protect my hearing.
(I already have tinnitus.) But 85 decibel/10 hours are not problematic. That's very good news for me. Although I can't believe it.
I measured the loudness with a phone app and I found that a decibel above 60-65 already hurts my ears.
It takes time to adjust. I used to listen too quiet and then as soon as my ears adjusted that level became my norm. Now I instinctively know that level even if I'm using other people's setups. I naturally crank it to that level. But do try measuring with an actual SPL meter and not a phone app to ensure the correct level. If you really want to get into the weeds with more accuracy you can use a speaker calibration mic and use it alongside room eq wizards SPL meter
Thanks so much for the video! One question I would like to get your opinion on is if I should switch my akg k812 (i got them used for relatively cheap) for something like audeze mm100. The highs are really loud which fine for listening but that means I have to make my mixes with the same very crispy highs for them to translate which is hard for me to do since I am sensitive to high end. I do eq them to harman and it does help a ton but I feel like there is room for improvement. So I am thinking about buying something like mm100 which can be eq'd without any compromise basically, due to it being a planar and it will probably sound better too since it a 2023 headphone vs a 2012 one? Would really appreciate your point of view:)
Brilliant! Cheers Paul. What do you think of the Little Labs Monotor headphone amp?
Overpriced. Only offers 200mW at 32 ohm which is pitiful for its price. Even the topping e2x2 interface offers nearly 3x the power at 32 ohms.
£550 for a headphone amp that can't adequately drive hungry low ohm phones ie planars is very poor.
Some older hp amps would prioritise higher impedance cans which in 2024 is criminal.
That's why I Advise the L30ii. There's not really anything that can outperform it and it's like £130-150
Thank you for sharing your experience Paul! With the high detail of a headphone such as the Ananda Nano, I'm wondering if you feel there is a greater tendency to focus on correcting very small things, such things that may not really make a difference to most listeners. I'm already usually very detail focused and a mix can take quite a long time.
Also, for crossfeed, I deduce you prefer Can Opener vs the one in Realphones?
Thanks!
You can't mix what you can't hear. It's all about referencing and learning what to touch and what to leave alone. You learn the nanos over time but it's better to have the detail than not have it at all
I use canopener due to crossfeed being built into realphones. You cant seperate the crossfeed in realphones.
Really great video!
What are your thoughts on the Audio Technica ATH-M70x? Have you tried them?
Typical cheap dynamics. Flabby mushy low end. Lack of transient detail. Just typical budget dynamic sound. They are alright
Hi have a pair and I love mine whats crazy is I get tonhesr things I can't in even more poor headphones what headphones would you recommend that for the video @@PaulThird
As I said in the video. Get a good pair of planars and then compare to your dynamics. The slam of the ananda nanos will rip your face off. Reveals every transient and the low end is so incredibly tight, fast, clean and detailed. It's remarkable.
When you hear the slam of nanos or even Audeze LCD-X you realise what you dynamics don't give you.
Hifiman sundara open backs are always what I advise for those starting out. Great average where they are very close to the slam of LCD-X but have a slightly better soundstage. Clean, detailed and I actually slightly prefer them to LCD-X and they are only like £220.
Your ATH, DT, HD, MD.. All can't give you that planar detail and transient retrieval. They are just too slow and on the budget side sub £300 for dynamics you are usually guaranteed some coloured low end.
The European and US manufacturers just can't match the quality of the Chinese at the same budget. Is what it is
Its the same in the DAC market
I just had a listening session on the Sundara open back, oh my god.. I am buying them asap!
One huge plus was the stability when eq-ing which I heard reviewers say. Usually when I eq the bass on dynamic headphones it de-stabilized other frequency bands while the sundaras were solid. I noticed the things you mentioned too!
Yeah Sundara's take eq like a champ!
@PaulThird could you please share Emre's harman eq for the sundaras somehow?
If you go to audio science review there is a review of the sundara and Amir recommendations an eq. Pretty sure it was the one we used or very close
Regarding headphone amps, I have actually been using an NAD 302 integrated stereo amplifier from the 90's. It's designed to drive audiophile speakers but my goodness it's a gem on my cans. I have Fostex RP60 Planars for my headphones and a pair of Linsoul IEM's
I loved the old NAD amps....I use Behringer HPS 3000 headphones.. $25....I only mix on headphones if I really have to....
some bands on the frequency response of consumer grade headphones are deliberately boosted by the manufacturer to convince the end users to think they are hearing the real low end. ex: headphones with "extra bass boost" which cannot actually reproduce low end. I think the term studio headphones is used for the ones that has a rather linear frequency response.
Remember linear effectively means no distortion. Means its frequency response is not impacted due to non linearities of the system which in headphones would be the drivers and such.
That's why planars are viewed as essentially linear because of their extremely low distortion levels which means that they can be easily eq'd without creating audible distortion.
The same can't be said for a lot of dynamic "studio" headphones
I was about to pull the trigger on the new Ollo X1 . I currently own the s4x .The new ones come with calibration file and software. Do you think these (or the previous models) compete with the Ananda Nano ? I can't imagine how better than these premium models these headphones can be
No dynamic will compete with nano. I have ollo S5X. It's too slow.
@@PaulThird I was afraid you would answer that 🤣
Hi Paul, Scarlett 4th gen have higher-ish impedance, I'm using them with Ollo s5X's and they seem good enough. (Main Monitoring system is HEDD speakers + sub in a decently treated room) Do you reckon another headphone amp will really make a huge difference? I was under the impression that the Scarlett 4th gen is already much better than the 1st Gen I used before it decided to stop working one day.. Anyway dude, really appreciate your videos. Gonna buy you a coffee on that link
With it being 50 ohm output impedance and the ollos being 32 ohm I would personally get a headphone amp as you may have impedance matching issues. May cause dampening and colouration via low levels of distortion. You always want to get a headphone amp with minimum 1-2 ohm output impedance. 50 ohm is high especially when combined with low ohm headphones.
4th gen is only 32mW into 32 ohm from what I've read which isn't great. Scarletts are well known for having like the weakest headphone amps out there but the ollos are decently sensitive so you may be alright power wise if you crank it but tbh if you ask me or Ed Thorne about Scarletts for headphones.. Just get a seperate hp amp or a new interface
Hey Paul! Thanks for the video! Do you know by any chance if the headphone amp of the Babyface pro fs is good enough to drive a pair of LCD-X ?
90mW at 32 ohm is low power compared to even topping e2x2 which is providing around 580mW.
Depends on how sensitive the LCD-X is. I'm gonna guess it'll struggle but I can't say for sure without actually trying to get the level to 80-85db spl and then listening
But considering the e2x2 is basically offering 6x the power I would guess that babyface will struggle a lot with hungry headphones
what do you think about mixing on a planar IEM's ? I know this is like a taboo question lol but IEM's are fairly detailed too compared to over ears in my opinion. i know the bass response will lack but in my case im not really looking good bass response in my mixes, i just need detailed and spacious mixes. If i EQ my planar IEM and use a room simulating plugin like dearVR monitor to check the spaciousness, will that translate well?
There's only one IEM that I've used that I would mix on and I'm still on the fence whether I can truly trust it. Always over ear for me if I have the choice
Most of the time I'm mixing with moondrop's chu II equalized to the harman curve, which they are naturally pretty close to, connected directly to a macbook pro cause they are very easy to drive. insane amount of detail for 20$ + whatever dac and eq you have around
Great video paul very interesting
🤜🤛
Do you use the Ananda Nanos with Realphones? If yes, what profile do you use, since its not in their database?
Nope. I only use ollo S5X with realphones
Great learnings, thank you! I have just upgraded my headphone setup with planars and they are definitely a step up from my HD 650. For closed back, what would you recommend in the ~500 +/- 200 € price range? Cheers 🙏
Depends what you are looking for. If it's tracking there are many options, if it's for mixing, no closed backs in that price bracket for me. You'd need to go all the way up to the audeze LCD closed back for something I would reccomend for mixing
@@PaulThird music production and mixing when I need the isolation. What is your experience with the Sundara closed back? Not recommended?
The sundara closed are pretty good. Me and Ed both use them on the podcast and we've not had any bleed issues. However you need a decent amp to drive them. The evo 16 needs to be at 85 just to get them to a listenable level for tracking and even at that the evo's distort a lot but it's common knowledge they have a shit headphone amps.
So sundara closed are a good option but only with a good hp amp
@@PaulThird thanks a lot for your comments 👍
Paul, would you recommend the Topping e2x2 for a headphone amp over the L30mk2 if I only have a cheap interface currently?
My worry buying the L30 would be that my interface would be the weak link in the chain
Yes buy the E2X2 or E4X4. if it had adat expandability it would be my main interface in the control room.
I still miss E4X4 for recording the podcast. A part of me is genuinely considering bringing it in back and connecting the analog chain to it so I can keep using it. The direct monitoring is awesome and so clear. The evo 16 headphone amp is terrible and I didnt think it would bother me but it does as I'm using the sundara closed for podcast and it's pushing the amp to its limit.
The evo's direct monitoring is only sent to the analog outs so I can't use the topping dx7 pro+ for that purpose through spdif
Quite infuriating
@@PaulThird Really helpful thanks
Thanks Paul. What’s the Harman EQ
ua-cam.com/video/ay8Hfrlys_A/v-deo.html
Great video Paul! So i use a pair of Audeze LCD X with the harman curve that you suggested and i have found it to be a big improvement on Sonarworks. So big thank you! for bringing that to my attention and i can see that using a dedicated headphone amp like the Topping would be a better alternative than plugging straight into my Apollo twin. But would that difference really be night and day ?
Yeah cause I don't like apollo headphone amps. I had an x6 and never used its DAC for speakers or headphone amp. Sounded coloured in the low end with this odd low mid build up that I'd hear even on the speakers through apollo. Made things sound muddy in comparison to the topping. When I was using the apollo x6 I was bypassing it's dac for the topping dx7 pro+
Do you have the info on the harman curve for the LCD x to share? I'd like to try this!
Just go on auto eq and get a curve
@@PaulThird on it
2 questions:
1. what are your thoughts on audeze lcd-x 2021 vs hifiman ananda? Any pros and cons of each, or is there a clear winner?
2. I just bought a RME babyface pro fs. Does it also have a subpar headphone amp?
There are many problems with standard ananda so my advice is always ananda nano.
Nano's beat lcdx for slam and low end detail. They are faster and honestly nothing really beats them for low end, which is saying something as audeze have really nice low end, especially the close back LCD. Both don't have the best soundstage so comparing the 2, nanos always win for me.
Babyface pro FS is a little light power wise so I'm unsure whether it's got enough juice to adequately power LCD-X. I can't say for sure but to put it into context, topping e2x2 has as much as 6x the power of babyface pro FS at 32 ohm.
@@PaulThird alright. Thank you very much!
Do you have any experience with Hifiman Edition XS / Ayra / Ayra Organic? Do you rate Hifiman above Audeze?
None of those hifiman. Emrah uses ayra. Cant remember which one, maybe stealth but he thinks it's a very good average of nano and HE1000SE. I think that hifiman can excel at certain things where audeze normally just give you a very good average
2nd question... What settings do you use in can opener?
Mix Engineer
Paul, my audio interface only has balanced outs. What would be the best way to connect the unbalanced Topping L30 II inputs to the outputs of my Presonus Quantum? I currently have a RME ADI2 Fs, but I'm thinking about selling it and replacing by a cheaper Topping Headphone amp. Thank you for the great content!
Same process. TS to RCA. It's still mono as it's seperate L&R so theres no issue. You can use TS with balanced out. The L30ii measures better than balanced amps so there's nothing to worry about
I have a pair of AKG K712, I know they are cheap but I am using them when I have to mix while streaming. At least they have a bit of low end, are they shit? I kind of like them although I really prefer mixing on my KALI in-8s.
I think that kind of gives you your answer. I've got IN5 in my studio and I'd much rather mix on the hifimans any day of the week.
Would it still be acceptable to drive the ananda nano's at 80-85db spl and then use canopener's equal loudness compensation output gain to listen at lower levels (70-75db spl) while still getting the same frequency response? I think RME also has this function but what are your thoughts on this?
No don't use the equal loudness thing in canopener. I always found it messes with translation. One of the reasons I know a few didn't like canopener at first. I always have safe mode off. It's very annoying that it has this on by default.
Plus canopener goes before the DAC so you either drive the nanos at 80-85db SPL or you don't
I see. Is the compensation control's auto adaptive eq in canopener not accurate in terms of getting the right slam and bass and does it mess with the soundstage? (For example lowering the volume inside canopener's output gain to say -16db to get the same levels as I would listening at 80-85db at 0db) If so, I'll just stick to listening at 80-85db spl with the output gain straight up at 0.
Yeah avoid anything that unnecessarily alters the eq. Safe mode alters the tonal balance in a way I've never liked. Same with other people. Canopener without safe mode slightly alters the frequency response still but it's not as noticeable as safe mode
I hear ya on the noise cancelling wireless headphones, sometimes I'm playing round making beats etc on them just for convenience when I need to get up and check something every 5 minutes , very well aware how bad they are for accuracy.
Yeah they really are just consumer headphones
Question.. The only planar HPs I've owned were the HiFiman he400se. They had this thing where if you put any pressure on the cups you'd hear that thin membrane inside making a crinkling sounds. Question is, are all planars that sensitive or was it just because it was a cheaper planar?
I've never experienced that but at £100 it's possible tbh. I wouldn't expect great QC at that price. Tbh though I don't really ever put pressure on the cups, I just stick them on my head and mix haha
@@PaulThird I hear ya! It must have been the cheapness in the build. It wasn’t like i would push on them intentionally. I just happened to hear the mebrane making noises when adjust them or something. And of course, once I knew it was thing I did do it again n purpose a few times to try and understand what was going on. I do remember that one side seemed worse than the other too. But it was really annoying. Kinda made me turned ff by planars. So it’s good to know you’ve never had any weirdness with the higher end ones. Thanks!
That “after night club” loss of hearing is called “temporary threshold shift.”
acoustic treatment first or plannars? or subwoofer first or plannars?
Planars first. Quickest route to getting mixing which is most important.
That way you can still mix and slowly build your acoustic treatment
@@PaulThirdmost others would say the room first. i had treatment first in a studio before. but im starting over. so maybe i could do it differently this time. Thanks!
i have kali mm-6 right now and a other shitty pair for referencing (krk rokit 4 g3 lmao) i had yahama hs5 before.
Excellent video/info and channel Paul. Question: Why are Mix Engineers still mixing to a one size fits all, rather than offering different mixes for different scenarios, and offer those options ie (headphone mix, room/speaker mix), car mix etc - especially when most music listeners listen to Spotify et al on shitty phone speakers ? I guess in days gone by, when people/homes had radio and home stereo systems, there wasn't as much of a stress and hassle with over mixing for all scenarios like there is now. Has streaming put a complete spanner in the works as far as mixing & mastering professionally is concerned ? Ive seen quite a few mix related videos/Documentaries where the Engineers on analogue gear didn't over think their processes, they just got on with it ? Why are we so fixated on one mix, for a set of different listening scenarios ? Would it not be better for revenue income to offer different mixes for different scenarios ? Cheers
Cause there's no way of streaming platforms being able to stream different mixes based on exactly what the playback device is.
Plus it's too subjective as all cars sound different, as do Bluetooth speakers, laptops, headphones etc etc
Plus it's hard enough getting revisions on 1 stereo mix, never mind 5 or 6 haha the whole process would take weeks.
Atmos is trying to get closer via the way it adapts to the monitor layout which includes binaural but it's just not practical to get translation to every device so we pick a standard which is speakers in a treated room and everything revolves around that
@@PaulThird I reckon Mix & Mastering Engineers, more so the former, had an easier time of it mixing all those iconic songs we know and love, as opposed to today's music/releases. I wonder if Film/Video Editors have similar situation where they colour grade etc for Netflix etc. I also think the demise of home stereos/speaker systems has led to the wee sonic minefield of now, with so many platforms to average out a mix for. 5 or 6 mix revisions wid keep yae on yer toes !! lol
Ho mate, are the hifiman cans the silver and blacks one that ate arounfd £350 and are they 14 ohms? I struggled with your accent on the model haha😂
Ananda nano
@PaulThird thank you mate
Is 70-75 dB good enough to mix on? since I've recently got very mild to mildly potent (oxymoron😵💫is all can use to describe it atm) tinnitus (depending on sleep or health) from listening on headphones at that level
I wouldn't reccomend that level personally. You are missing the real slam and bass detail mixing that low for me. Headphones need adequately driven. At 70-75db you are in the realm of fletcher munson also getting in the way. Maybe try the apple headphones. I think they may have some auto adaptive eq in there that changes the response in relation to the level but I'm not 100% sure. Try looking for a headphone with high sensitivity and is easily driven and try and maybe invest in some tantrum audio angry boxes so you can still judge the transients as they are very fast and compact. It's the bass that id worry about most. Maybe invest in a sub and see if you can treat the room enough where you can trust it.
70-75db is more casual listening for me but if you can push it more towards 75db you might still make it work with more sensitive headphones
I’m looking for the best all rounder headphones for mixing (meaning, if you only had ONE set to mix on).
Was leaning towards the Ananda Nanos but concerned about soundstage as you said mid channel is so focused, and I understand you monitor on a second pair of headphones for soundstage specifically (Sony MDR-MV1 if I’m correct?)
Out of the Sundaras or HE1000se, which is the best ‘all rounder’ for mixing? (Fucking the budget off 🤣) Again, please assume these are the only headphones you’d own.
Doesn't exist. I've not find it anyway. That's why I mix on multiple headphones
@@PaulThird so what best fits that description out of the Sundara’s, Nano’s, and HE1000se’s? If you could only have one?
@@RicherPodcast out those 3. sundara open back but only due to the fact that nothing I've heard sounds as good as HE1000SE for resolution and soundstage. You could class it as too much of a good thing in regards to realism to other systems.
Nano's lack the soundstage of your Sennheiser, Sony etc
Sundara sit in the middle but like say LCD-X they don't really excel any anything. They just kinda do everything really well but if you want the full detail then you need to mix it up and combine other headphones
If it was me I'd choose Nano's because that's what I've done. I Sold the sundara cause I had the nano.
If I had no other headphone I would just use speakers for soundstage
I can't give up that low end detail of nano now I have it. Too much of a time saver
@@PaulThird understood! So which would you say is the best for translation of soundstage between those 3, and the nv1s?
Obvs wouldn’t but the nv1s if it’s the only pair of headphones I could own, but curious non the less.
Translation depends on the mixer. You would need to try stuff your for yourself
To be honest when I use the iPhone app that shows the decibel output of connected headphones like my AirPods I find 70db just fine and dandy
Jesus...live a little eh 😜 70db is SOOO quite to me. If I've got my planars at that level I've got hardly no slam, no real bass definition. I always find levels like 70db is where you just want to casually listen. Potter about and have it in the background which is fine. I'll listen at that level if I still want to hear my surroundings a bit but doing any audio work it's way too quiet for me haha
@@PaulThird I suppose that’s using the noise cancelling too so your right, more casual listening. But I would say even when I’m writing and playing guitar stuff with my axe fx into my monitors I’m not going above 80…I think loudish conversation level is what I aim for.
I think 80-85db spl is a fine line if you have neighbours. It's loud but it always sounds right to me. Again Fletcher Munson playing it's part.
Theres no way I could have neighbours with my atmos room. It would probably need to be 70ish, especially with the sub and the LFE being +10db louder than the rest of the speakers. Atmos basically requires 80-85db spl when setting levels. Trust me when that LFE hits in certain mixes that haven't done the +10db, my ceiling lights rattle haha
Makes a lot of sense when you watch movies cause it genuinely sounds like you are in the cinema in my room with actual low frequency effects but I think many have not got the memo for music and that's caused an issue where certain mixes use the LFE for the bass and i know if i had neighbors there are definitely noise complaints going in haha
I think that's part of the reason why many get a bit timid cause it's not loud where you are in pain, but it's too loud for a house that has people living in it. more the low end than anything else
I'm looking at the Focal Hadenys as potentially the dynamic headphones that give the planar like quality in the bass as well as the punch that Focal headphones have and are known for and also they seem to be pretty close to harman target out of the box, yeah a bit more expensive but still seems to be reasonably priced. (btw. I have Sundara 2020 rev and heard tons of Planars)
I just can't see it at that price tbh as Emrah has focal clear MG, Ive also tried them and they don't do the planar thing. The clear sound good for dynamics but I doubt if I (or Emrah who has tried basically everything) have never heard dynamics to date that can match the slam, speed and low end detail of many planars, that the cheaper hadyness will compete.
If you want quality bass and fast transients just get Hifiman Ananda nano. No point playing with £600 dynamics to match planars when you can get the real deal (nanos) for £400.
I had a client in the studio last night who owns the HEDDphones and Focal ST atmos room. As soon as he heard the nanos he knew exactly what I've been talking about in regards to low end detail and transients. HE1000SE absolutely blew him away though, as is the case when most try them at first as no other headphone are as resolving with as detailed imaging as the HE's
Be interesting to hear how the focal compares to the sundara though
What do you make of the oratory1990 curves?
He gives you a 10 and 5 band option in the PDFs. I’ve found that his adjustments are sometimes closer to harmen than I can get AutoEQ (Without using excessive bands).
Any thoughts on his curves specifically?
Thanks!
I always use oratory measurements when there's a choice of measurements but I still do the auto eq myself
@@PaulThird gotcha! So if an oratory curve is available, are the 10 band version preferable in that case (apposed to using less than 4).
…is the recommendation for using less than 4 bands mostly for if you’re making a your own curve by ear?
Use the oratory measurement but do your own auto eq. 10 bands is too much especially if you may only need 3 or 4
@@PaulThird What would you say if the low end is still very far off with Auto EQ, even with a lot of (10) bands?
For example, the oratory measurement WITHOUT AutoEQ actually matches the lows perfectly, but using that same measurement inside of AutoEQ completely throws off the low end.
I’ve talked to oratory and can confirm that the measurements are the same, but it’s AutoEQ’s automatic adjustments that are throwing off the measurement.
In an ideal world, it would surely have been great to have the default AutoEQ values match the original measurements from the third party, i.e. oratory1990, Rtings, etc.
Note: This is also considering what you said about not being overly obsessive on matching everything exactly to harman, but I’m genuinely having trouble matching low end anywhere near close to harman when using AutoEQ.
Then you aren't using auto eq properly. What are the headphones you are trying to get to harman
HD 800s, ARYA stealth, Stellia .. all EQ'd, very good solutions
HD 600 i use the most, i guess comfy is a biggy😅
Stellia has good imaging, ARYA is a Movie Theatre with tons of woofers, HD 800s light, comfy, very good sound (EQ'd) also decent bassy
i have like 8 pairs of highend headphones left from my 'journey' and used geithain speakers before
nothing beats an EQ'd Headphone its like seeing clear and sharp after decades of boozed eyeside😁
sidenote: an EQ'd HD600 is 90% of what ur ear thinks as 'WOW'
Sennheisers are just too slow and mushy in the lows for me. Good soundstage. They represent the image well and allow you judge the song but I just dont get the critical details out of them for mixing. I can use them for an overall picture which is handy but I use the Sony MDR-MV1 for that (honestly comfort beyond comfort. You forget you are wearing cans with those)
@@PaulThird a good amp helps them a good bit thought, but i see more and more pros switching to plannar now so you are right!
hd600 were the most popular in studio but now i see less and less of these and plannars instead.
@@MuzdokOfficial planars have been one of the biggest reasons why a lot of speaker guys have started mixing more on headphones. Especially audezes. They have become a bit of an industry standard but I would argue Hifiman have the edge as they can excel in a particular thing where audeze tend to kind just do everything pretty well. They are never the fastest or the widest or the most resolving but they give a very good average which is why many have gravitated towards them. That and they are American, that always helps to get it into the industry 🤣
@@PaulThird i saw someone mixing mostly on them now then speakers 😂
What about compensating db levels after the massive boost applied on the eq to match th harman curve and what about fabfilters different q-factors
Didn't think I needed to share this again on the channel but I've put the answers in a pinned comment
Can you do cross feed in Realphones without room simulation?
No
@@PaulThird just looked at advanced mode (after asking dSoniq). It seems you can turn on calibration and the crossfeed mode without room simulation. Is that not as good as CanOpener with EqMac?
Also, any opinion on Oratory1990’s calibration for the Ananda Nano?
Must be a new addition. I asked ages ago and there didn't seem to be a way to do it. Did they tell you exactly how to do it without enabling any of the room sim?
There is no oratory nano calibration on auto eq as far as I'm aware. Ananda stealth but no nano. It's somebody elses measurement
@@PaulThird they referred me to the manual. 😂If you change to advanced mode, you can turn on calibration, cross feed, and room simulation each independently.
Seems that the angle and HRTF is there version of crossfeed which can now be used independently but jesus why do they not just call it crossfeed.
Id need to get my head round it to see what the ideal settings would be
what is your go to monitors? what other pairs do you have?
Speakers wise im using the kali's in the atmos room a lot. Gonna move the edifiers back in the control room cause I prefer them in there. It's way too hard to get perspective when you AB against speakers with a sub in a super treated room. You just really miss the way that the sub fills out everything in comparison. I think the edifiers are a bit low mid shy so they work amazingly well in the control room which has a bit of a low mid build up
@@PaulThird cool
I love the content you put into your videos Paul, but every time I watch one, I end up knowing less than I did before. A harmon EQ curve will differ from headphone to headphone, so is there a chart anywhere I can say. OK these are my headphones how should I set up the EQ?
Auto eq. Harman target remains the same. It's the headphone tuning per headphone that differs
@@PaulThird Thanks Paul.. by the way.. I hope the lady at the college gave you a lollipop when telling you she was pleased with your hearing.
No lollipop. Just a pat on the arse on the way out
@@PaulThird :)) When's your next date? being serious for a sec.. Is EqualizerAPO with Peace viewer ok? Or do I need to purchase one?
It'll be fine. It's just a bit finicky to set up and use at first. I use realphones standalone for desktop listening just cause I have it as an option and can load up to 3 manual eq's
What mic are you using to measure headphone SPL?
Spl meter or sonarworks mic through REW
@@PaulThird cheers for all the answers fella!
@@PaulThird and levelling to music or just a sinewave at 1k for example?
Spl meter I use music
@@PaulThird Cheers Paul!
I still have a couple of questions. Is that a couple of Gretsch guitars in the background ? and are you going to give us a song ?
There are videos of me playing the gretsch on the channel. You just need to find them
Funny, I'm using dynamic headphones (Dennon AHD2000s) to cross check my choices in the low end with my planars (Sundaras), and finding them quite helpful 😂Then again, the Denon's are reputed to be exceptional in their bass representation. So far, I'm finding I still need the dynamics to help me make the best decisions in the bass, but perhaps that will be less of a need over time as I learn the Sundaras more
If you are eq'ing the sundaras to harman the low end should be pretty spot on. They do need a bit of a bass lift though for harman so always ensure that they are eq'd as sundaras are very bass light stock
@@PaulThird I'm not sure that I am, though the correction I'm using (Acustica Sienna) does add quite a bit of bass and shift the tonality of the top end quite a bit
Try harman and get back to me as I really don't like sienna and unsure if it'll be raising the low end enough. It always gets the tuning wrong for me.
@@PaulThird quick link or website where I can find the harman curves? And then do I just plot them in Pro-Q 3 or similar? Or do you have a video explaining how to do this?
ua-cam.com/video/ay8Hfrlys_A/v-deo.html
Great advices!
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What about the ollo s5x ?
Use them with room sims
I mix on headphones because everyone advises me not to buy studio monitors if my room isnt treated. My room really is empty lol.
Good advice
Hi Paul, I mix TV broadcasts on a set of Ollo S4X with a RME ADI 2 pro. I noticed you commented that you have both Ollo’s and HiFiMans. Do you feel that I would benefit from a step up in translation with the HiFiman Nano’s?
I would say so as the ollos are pretty slow transient wise. Nano's will give you every hyper critical detail which may be good for broadcast. You've just gotta be careful cause it shows you every click, pop, squeak. It's so incredibly fast in the mid channel so you would have to learn them a bit as you may start to over fix at first but if you want a headphone thats revealing it's the nanos.
I didn't use them on this video and I changed my voice over chain a bit and I can hear where I've missed some of the top end transients in my voice. It needs a bit of spiff just to tame those very sharp top end T's that are picked up by the JZ BH2. Honestly that mic picks up every transient put in front of it so I need to watch that. I was using fast attack compression before and changed it to slow this week as I was unsure if I was distorting in places trying to catch the peaks. The nanos would have been screaming at me to tame the top end transients haha
@@PaulThird Thanks for the detailed reply. I forgot to mention that I did have a pair of Audeze LCD-X (planar) for a short time, but wasn't able to get past how strange and "boxy" the midrange was. Not sure if that's inherent in all planars, or if it was just unique to the Audeze.
Did you eq the LCD-X? They all sound different. Hifiman are very different sounding to Audeze.
@@PaulThird Yes, corrective EQ was applied. Still sounded "boxy" with & without the EQ. Two other friends (professional engineers) agreed as well.
Eq'd to harman or using sonarworks? Either way that tells you that the LCD-X are just not for you. Nothing to do with planar
what did they do in the 80's ?
Mixed on speakers
Focal lensys va changer le game du casque
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Just get Realphones, set to Optimised for your cans and mix! 😎
Hi. Where is this option? Thanks
i do not use the interface for headphones anymore and nobody shouldn'. its okay for tracking or recording
I'm struggling even using the evo 16 headphone amp for tracking the podcast. Its so shit. Hardly any power and distorts if pushed too much
@@PaulThird 🤣
@@PaulThird 😅
At 26:00 this is bad advice. 80 dB is way too loud for headphone listening. Sound obeys an inverse square law whereby sound exponentially decays in the air. An SPL of 80 at 2 feet distance becomes 54 dB. 2 feet is typical near field monitor listening. Headphones are 2 inches and enclosed! 80 is 80! Don't listen too loud.
If 80db SPL C was too loud myself and Emrah Celik would be deaf after years of doing this. Emrah mixes and masters hundreds upon hundreds of records every year. He works daily at that level. Has been for many many years. He's not deaf, he's actually more successful.
The key is taking breaks. Not distance. SPL is SPL. Transients will sound more apparent but it's still relative to the sound that reaches your ears. SPL is SPL regardless of the distance.
If I have my speakers at 80-85db spl at my listening position and my headphones at the same level, the speakers aren't any quieter when I take the headphones off. It's relatively the same loudness. The speakers themselves are theoretically quieter due to the reflections and the room adding on top of that but it all combines to the same end SPL level reaching your ears.
Yes, the headphones are louder than the speakers, but not if I stick my ear right up against a speaker as that SPL would be much much louder. So what would I need to do? I would need to reduce the level of the speaker to adjust for the distance to my ear. No difference to being in a very small bedroom with a Bluetooth speaker. You set the volume relative to the distance.
Also what you are forgetting that SPL is massively impacted by bass energy. That's why 80db on headphones eq'd to harman is not perceived as loud as not with eq.
The bass response is closer which means that it impacts the measurement a lot more. I've tested it. You lose headroom.
That's why 85db SPL C in a room with a sub can be perceived as quieter as say NS10's at 85db spl because there is more focus on the upper frequencies which in turn make them louder. It's the same sound pressure level but we perceive it as louder due to the conture of our ears and how inner hairs of the cochlea shape the sound before it reaches our actual ear drum. Our ears have a tilt and our sensitivity to frequencies vary but relatively we are less sensitive to low frequencies and more sensitive to higher frequencies
Headphones offer full range response, especially when eq'd to harman so 80db SPL on headphones is nowhere near as loud as you think as the bass takes up so much of the dynamic range.
Either way. If something is too loud your ears tell you. If you listen too quiet at say 65-70db then of course 80-85db is gonna sound too loud at first. Yours ears adapt. I would never mix to a level that was physically hurting my ears
I can mix 4-5 hours at 80-85db spm, zero breaks, no fatigue, and it's just a normal level to me now
As I said in the video. Years of exposure at that level and my hearing test came back absolutely normal.
Explain that
@@PaulThird First, thank you for the response and thanks for all your videos. Look for the inverse-square-law-sound-calculator on google, punch in the numbers and tell me what is the SPL at your ears.
No response would suggest that you are correct @@citadelo5ricks
Punched in 85db spl. Put in 2cm distance for both point sources. Which is the same for both ears in headphones and speakers as it's the same distance for each ear. Came back as the same as the source spl regardless of distance.
Put in 1m.. 85db spl
5m.. 85db spl
All that calculation shows is difference in spl in relation to distance, in relation to another distance.
So in headphones it tells you that if you take the headphones off and sit 1m away from the headphones the sound you hear is about 70db spl at that distance. Well that's obvious.
We all know that spl increases or decreases the further or closer you are from the source. That's simple science.
However, the calculation tells you that if you input the same distance for each ear (which in reality are the end point source) then the SPL remains the same regardless of the distance.
So 1cm at 85db spl is 85 db spl
1m at 85db spl is 85db spl
Sound pressure level is sound pressure level. If there was a difference in fixed spl in relation to distance then the calculation would show differing spl when the ears were closer or further from the source at the same SPL
So say if you put in 1cm for both sources, the attenuated spl would read 85db spl.. 0 attenuation.
If you put 1m for both sources the attenuated SPL would read 82 spl. So 3db of attenuation.
But that doesn't happen because SPL is SPL. When you listen to 85 SPL. It doesn't matter if the distance is 1cm, 1m, 5m, 10m. If it measures at 85db spl at that distance then it's 85db spl.
How we perceive that spl is the thing that may differ but the SPL remains the same.
So if I'm at 1m distance at 85db and move back 4m then of course It'll be quieter. But when i raise the speaker level to 85db spl. Guess what... Its 85db spl reaching my ear.
That's the context to what I am saying
Thats why myself and Emrah have no form of hearing loss after years of mixing at that level on headphones. Because it isn't too loud, especially when you bring harman into the equation as it adds more bass which means that the low end in headphones have a much larger impact on the SPL measurement as it's more bass energy in a more enclosed space.
85db SPL with harman will be perceived quieter than 85db spl on headphones that exhibit a lot less bass with emphasised mid range due to how sensitive the ear is to mid range.
The SPL is the same, but the perceived loudness due to frequency is what changes.
If I'm in my atmos room and switch off the sub so all I'm getting is 120hz up. If I measure 85db spl and compare that to 85db spl with sub on. The speakers with the sub off will feel a lot louder to my ears as the sub plays such a large role in the overall energy. It's just that ours ears are less sensitive to lower frequencies which means that it's perceived quieter. The low frequencies from the sub take up so much headroom that you need less level from your speakers to produce 85db spl, compared to with the sub off which has a lot more headroom which means it requires more speaker level in order to produce 85db spl.
So theoretically speaking, the sub off measurement is actually louder to a certain degree as we have increased the actual power going to the loudspeaker which in turn is producing more energy in the region that our ears are more sensitive to. But due to the nature of acoustic sound which has most energy in the lows and less in the highs, it measures the same due to energy per frequency in relation to SPL.
If we are talking SPL in relation to frequency response.. Then we are talking a completely different situation that can get pretty complex rather quickly
@@PaulThird I thought about this too, and I completely agree with your comment on frequency dependent SPL. Mid range SPL can damage hearing whereas the same SPL at the low end (or anywhere out of the "midrange") would not cause the damage. Using the Harman curve does indeed help there however I do see alot of people ducking the mids even further. In particular for EDM that is destined for clubs/concerts.
I also thought about room measurements from speaker to ear and the formula I shared, 1/distance. That formula applies in open space or an anechoic chamber. In a room, reflections will cause the sound to remain louder because the listener will be hearing reflections (whether they know it or not).
I once did a test of speakers in my backyard and it is indeed eye opening how fast the sound falls off. It is not at all like a room, any room, even a treated room, even a "perfect" room. Note that VSX has rooms, implying the room has a signature sound. There is no "anechoic" VSX preset.
I bought VSX on your recommendation video and love it. I do most of my work on audeze and also followed your Harmon advice. I use a autoeq and apply a LP eq because I can hear the smudge of min phase. Smoothed curves keep preringing to a minimum. As I dig deeper into this I do see that auditioning is best in multiple dimensions, that is why VSX is so great. Plus I'm adding some of my own convolutions for audeze HPs.
Are there any impulse response libraries you recommend for room/space emulations?
Thanks for the detailed response. Big ups.
I absolutely hate headphones. I don't even like being on a video call and being asked to use them.
I have a treated room and monitors for a reason.
Sounds like you've never heard the right ones 🤷♂️
Salute 👍🏾 🫡
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I only mix with AKG k240s. They sound like crap. Flat. Lifeless. No color. But you hear everything and if you can get your mix to sound great through these things they will sound great pretty much everywhere. At least that is my experience.
Oh Paul, this is gonna be controversial😂
Nah pretty much stuff I've already spoken about before
Concerning the 80/85db exposure, there is a major factor related to safety which is the distance to the audio source. You can mix safely at 85 db at 3 meters from your speakers all day long. But with headphones and that kind of proximity, it is less safe, much less safe actually. You can easily tell by the ear fatigue.
It's all relative to the sound pressure level reaching your ears. 85db SPL reaching your ears from speakers and 85db SPL reaching your ears from headphones is 85db SPL. Regardless of the distance.. It's 85db SPL.
If it was unsafe mine and Emrahs hearing would be absolutely shot after years of listening at that level. Emrah's been mixing and mastering professionally on headphones daily, long hours at those levels for much longer than me.
Taking regular breaks is the most important factor, not distance.
How would that even work? Sound pressure is sound pressure.
Ear fatigue on headphones is caused by other factors entirely, try slapping canopener on your monitoring fx buss and you'll definitely notice a reduction in ear fatigue.
@@Windiguanainteresting, so it could, for example, be that unnatural L/R separation can cause it?
@@EdwinDekker71 possibly also the sharpness of transients using headphones and lack of natural reverb which is similar to being in acoustically dead room when wearing closed back headphones but the 85dB should be safe though I also prefer lower volume for midrange clarity and compensate the bass with little extra bass boost to hear that similarly to 85dB so low thd headphones in bass region especially is necessary starting point of good headphones...
Vid from Dash Glitch that outlines a brilliant way to add a control room bus in BItwig... ua-cam.com/video/R0sWC6yB_PY/v-deo.htmlsi=ceXeGksiK4Xjg290