+Chris Shields they still do all that stuff. the playerbase has just optimized the way you do this and everybody sticks to that. the biggest problem is the way this game has been datamined to death.
Daily reminder Onyxia has been done by 3 players in WoW Classic. Mythic raids today take a hundred times more work and are far more challenging than any raids from back in the 2000s.
"This was the community who asked us for it, we shifted our development priorities around and made Zul Gurub a 20 man raid zone, that was purely because the community said this is something we need in our game, the game is yours too."
@@cactuss33ds Yeah, the game has not changed as much as the playerbase has-- there's no real way to stop that other than making everything extremely difficult so that the good players can have a challenge still... and in the meantime making the game completely inaccessible to newer/worse players. Blizzard has done their best to adapt to the wants and needs of the community over the years-- sometimes succeeding, and many times completely failing, but anyone who thinks that WoW in 2024 should be designed the exact same way as it was in 2005 is just being silly and should go play the vanilla classic servers that barely anyone plays. Modern retail has struck a nice balance with that I believe with M+ scaling as far as dungeons go. One size fits all difficulty is impossible to balance in a 20 year old game where skill levels vary so widely, compared to the game's release where we were all trash.
Daily reminder Onyxia has been done by 3 players in WoW Classic. Mythic raids today take a hundred times more work and are far more challenging than any raids from back in the 2000s.
@@VDA19 I think alot of people dont care so much about how hard the game is, mythic raids are hella hard but the game has never been doing worse than right now, the social aspect of wow was what made it so amazing and seeing cool players walking around on cool stuff, now days everyone looks cool, everyone has a cool mount, hardly anyone talks outside of guilds, the world feels dead, cash shops and more and more items for cash, wow tokens, boosts, the game has lost everything that made it so fun
@@BodybuildingSteve " but the game has never been doing worse than right now" They have way more players than they did during WoD and WoW makes more money than it ever did.
@@VDA19 that's not saying much though is it wod was absolutely dire and I never said the game wasn't making money, from a corporate standpoint wow/blizzard are fantastic but for gamers and people who love alot of blizzard ips it hurts too watch a company that used too have so much passion for games turn into a shell of themselves, just like so many others it's about the bottom line rather than coming up with a great product, Warcraft reforged was a perfect example
So sick of hearing people making excuses for what Blizzard has become. "Oh you're just nostalgic." No, you're just a fanboy or too young to have perspective. Anyone who was played their games since the mid or late 90s is able to see that the company has *fundamentally* changed since the Activision acquisition.
7:04 "We're the first to admit that, you know, we make mistakes." Man how times have changed. Current Devs are perfect! How dare you slander these beacons of game development!!
A dungeon was too hard for a certain healing class. Solution: ? Change the monster type in the dungeon so that the druid can utilize his crowd control abilities to then be able to handle the pull. Brilliant...where is this kind of thinking in todays blizzard. It goes without saying the immediate reaction (if this were an issue today) would be to simply buff the class thats struggling, Nerf the class that handled it easily, or the nerf the entire encounter by changing a few damage + health numbers.
It is shattering. It makes playing on a Vanilla or Burning Crusade server empowering. This is the game I play, this is what it used to be, the people's game, no this streamlined single player bullshit experience. Maybe all those selfish forum posts got to Blizzard and they gave those people "what they want". If people are happy, they probably don't even go on the forums ever. The ones that bicker and want to point out too many things can be a bad thing.
I joined in 07, and did only pvp for about 15 years. I recently got into the lore and pve content and discovered what I've been missing, this whole Warcraft thing that millions of people fell in love with. I love watching these older videos showcasing design philosophies for that reason. These guys come across as genuine, passionate and relatable. It felt like they were pushing the envelope and this badass IP was in good hands. I'd pay to see an interview with all the original wow devs and their thoughts on the current state of wow, the good and the bad.
This is amazing to listen to. He knows what’s going on. True gamers. Would love current Blizz to innovate a bit with some dungeons, maybe make a dungeon that’s not going to be in M+ or put it in M+ with an hour and a half timer or something.
This is just sad. Too bad WoW went mainstream and new generation of gamers got a voice in what direction WoW went in. The old design process in mmos like UO, EQ, WoW included things like effort=fun, now its ez mode=fun.
+GopStopBaba Indeed, and personally being an old WoW player myself, it makes me quite sad, even many of my friends i have on RealID, want to get things without putting an effort into them, and then there are so many who want free gear, same could be said about class changes, many ppl dont like complexity and seem to be happy with 3 spells in their bars coming in Legion, but the only difference is that unlike Vanilla, you can pull 5 mobs and still stay above 90% health, whether as melee or ranged.
You do know wow was soft core compared to it’s contemporary. It was more accessible then EQ, ff 11 and etc. wow was always about accessibility and cater to the masses. Nostalgia goggles messes with our perspective.
WoW went live without dungeon caps (well everything was capped at 40), three months IIRC. Anyway the community set their own cap on the bigger dungeons. Strat, Scholo and UBRS all had a 15-20 player cap. Meaning that people would ask how many players you had in the group and if it was approaching 15 it was more difficult to get players to join. At 20 players no one would join. This was all loot based of course, the chance to get loot diminished too far.
3:39 "Seeing too much of the same thing is tedious," and look at how raids are now. Do the same raid on multiple difficulty levels and call more content.
I don't think Modern WoW is bad. There are lots of good things about it. But it is definitely not the game being talked about in this video, and I can totally understand why people miss moments like this. A studio that cared about the game and its players. It's a far cry from what we have today.
Seeing him say that he as a developer is going in and testing and revising things like scholomance in person is nice. Do you think Bobby has even touched this Warcraft in person?
Every developer making RPGs and ESPECIALLY those working on MMORPGs (Current WoW Devs!), Should have listen to this and take notes on it to use as a reference point as they design the game.
Can someone please explain what is the difference between Wildstar when it was hardcore and vanilla WoW? If Wildstar couldn't survive why do so many WoW nerds think WoW will survive?
dungeon finder, trash pvp gameplay, trash lore. So many fed ex quests packed in one place at a time you vomite. Overall really boring experience. And finaly cash shop.
These guys aka the original devs while yes, they wanted to make money. It is clear that the main focus was on making an awesome game and having the players be happy. Its one of the reasons that for the first 3 xpacs there was not a single drop in the playerbase. If anything it kept growing non stop. Today's WoW devs only focus on "World First" bs, so its on Twitch. They are making the game for less than 100 players in the world. And months later the 99.9% of the playerbase gets to play it when 10 nerfs hit. And naturally. The main focus is the quarterly report. Make as much money as possible NOW. Not max out profits and health of the game over a period of X or Y. If you were "there" back in 2004 when the game came out, it is indeed very hard to re-watch some of these things. Most of us old players have quit long ago. And I think that was 100% the right choice. But if you are still playing (Like me) its literally one case of frustration and hate after another. New players, or the ones that came in mid way thru etc probably dont have quite as many problems as they never really experienced the glory days. The funniest part is when people start saying "Blizzard died 5 years ago" heh, no. Quite a bit longer than that im afraid.
Everyone in the comments without data are just spouting nonsense. Activision did not change Blizzard creatively they are still independent and learn from other teams in the company and vice versa. Blizzard always listens to the players even when some decisions were not good in hindsight. Just because you didn't want something changed or added doesn't mean there weren't others who did. You are not a game designer and looking at what current games Blizzard is competing with you would not have kept these design decisions even if they are better for the game as a whole. If no one plays your super awesome game that takes forever to do anything then no one is playing your game. Anyone else here speaking purely from a fan perspective should try making a game and see for themselves how "easy" it is to implement everything the fans want and what you want. It is not easy.
If they were able to construct instanced dungeons in 2004 ? why didn't they put in sharding which is basically instanced zones. Yeah. Don't fking shard me bro.
Blizzard is now about money and maintaining the egos of washed up developers whos surfing on old innovative game design. Every patch, they take a shit in the ocean.
Love the commitment to what the players want, but man oh man did it sound like the entire gameplay design was a tangled mess. Compared to what we have today, it almost sounds like designing stuff for the game was a free-for-all back then. I guess that's how the world buffs got put into Vanilla.
You guys fucked druids back then, nobody wanted us as tanks or even resto healer. Balance was the only option which we were worse than mages anyways...
this is soul-shattering
Watching this got me so excited. But, fuck me....
This is literally making me emotional to hear a WoW Dev talk about dungeons slowing pacing down, requiring tactics, and giving great rewards. =(
+FrenziedManbeast they still do, if you don't outgear them.
This is heart breaking to watch after seeing where the development philosophy is today.
+Chris Shields they still do all that stuff. the playerbase has just optimized the way you do this and everybody sticks to that. the biggest problem is the way this game has been datamined to death.
I can only imagine how it makes you feel with today's state of the game.. XD
Daily reminder Onyxia has been done by 3 players in WoW Classic. Mythic raids today take a hundred times more work and are far more challenging than any raids from back in the 2000s.
2021, even more so….
@@kaydee66781 It's just getting worse by the year, it hurts!
"This was the community who asked us for it, we shifted our development priorities around and made Zul Gurub a 20 man raid zone, that was purely because the community said this is something we need in our game, the game is yours too."
+caCupachabra oh but I guess we think we want this stuff but we don't...
this was the WoW i fell in love with
or was it jeff kaplin?
@@SlumplordxI would def tickle Jeff’s dingle berries
"you don't just smash thorugh the dungeon thunderclapping everything"
Hmmm...I wonder if Jeff plays WoW these days. That's exactly what it has become.
Yep, complete dog shit after Wrath fuck retail
Needs more thistle :P
@znushu
i wonder if jeff plays classic WoW where players AoE down everything anyway.
@@cactuss33ds Yeah, the game has not changed as much as the playerbase has-- there's no real way to stop that other than making everything extremely difficult so that the good players can have a challenge still... and in the meantime making the game completely inaccessible to newer/worse players. Blizzard has done their best to adapt to the wants and needs of the community over the years-- sometimes succeeding, and many times completely failing, but anyone who thinks that WoW in 2024 should be designed the exact same way as it was in 2005 is just being silly and should go play the vanilla classic servers that barely anyone plays.
Modern retail has struck a nice balance with that I believe with M+ scaling as far as dungeons go. One size fits all difficulty is impossible to balance in a 20 year old game where skill levels vary so widely, compared to the game's release where we were all trash.
So many contradictions to the current game. It's kind of depressing.
Daily reminder Onyxia has been done by 3 players in WoW Classic. Mythic raids today take a hundred times more work and are far more challenging than any raids from back in the 2000s.
@@VDA19 I think alot of people dont care so much about how hard the game is, mythic raids are hella hard but the game has never been doing worse than right now, the social aspect of wow was what made it so amazing and seeing cool players walking around on cool stuff, now days everyone looks cool, everyone has a cool mount, hardly anyone talks outside of guilds, the world feels dead, cash shops and more and more items for cash, wow tokens, boosts, the game has lost everything that made it so fun
@@BodybuildingSteve " but the game has never been doing worse than right now"
They have way more players than they did during WoD and WoW makes more money than it ever did.
@@VDA19 that's not saying much though is it wod was absolutely dire and I never said the game wasn't making money, from a corporate standpoint wow/blizzard are fantastic but for gamers and people who love alot of blizzard ips it hurts too watch a company that used too have so much passion for games turn into a shell of themselves, just like so many others it's about the bottom line rather than coming up with a great product, Warcraft reforged was a perfect example
@@BodybuildingSteve Every company is about the bottom line. Don't kid yourself.
jeff is such an awesome dude. Hes a part of so many good things
So sick of hearing people making excuses for what Blizzard has become. "Oh you're just nostalgic." No, you're just a fanboy or too young to have perspective. Anyone who was played their games since the mid or late 90s is able to see that the company has *fundamentally* changed since the Activision acquisition.
They have changed long before Activision came to the party. They have lost themselves without Activision =)
My body is ready for WoW Classic.
The sad thing is, if they made cool dungeons like they used to have, people would rage SO HARD
Hey look, a lead designer who knows game design.
7:04
"We're the first to admit that, you know, we make mistakes."
Man how times have changed. Current Devs are perfect! How dare you slander these beacons of game development!!
A dungeon was too hard for a certain healing class. Solution: ?
Change the monster type in the dungeon so that the druid can utilize his crowd control abilities to then be able to handle the pull.
Brilliant...where is this kind of thinking in todays blizzard.
It goes without saying the immediate reaction (if this were an issue today) would be to simply buff the class thats struggling, Nerf the class that handled it easily, or the nerf the entire encounter by changing a few damage + health numbers.
+dimitriuss well now they just remove skills from bosses .....>..>
To be fair. They might have done something similar to this for holy priests on their challenge scenario with undead minions to shackle.
It is shattering. It makes playing on a Vanilla or Burning Crusade server empowering. This is the game I play, this is what it used to be, the people's game, no this streamlined single player bullshit experience. Maybe all those selfish forum posts got to Blizzard and they gave those people "what they want". If people are happy, they probably don't even go on the forums ever. The ones that bicker and want to point out too many things can be a bad thing.
I joined in 07, and did only pvp for about 15 years. I recently got into the lore and pve content and discovered what I've been missing, this whole Warcraft thing that millions of people fell in love with.
I love watching these older videos showcasing design philosophies for that reason. These guys come across as genuine, passionate and relatable. It felt like they were pushing the envelope and this badass IP was in good hands.
I'd pay to see an interview with all the original wow devs and their thoughts on the current state of wow, the good and the bad.
This man was so far ahead
I miss jeff kaplan so much :c
This game sounds like much fun, I would like to play it. Why cant I play it ?
+Eriescraft you think you do, but you dont.
YOOOOO ITS COMING BOYS.
It's on it's way, wow classic
"Slow you down a bit in dungeons."
Nice.
#YouThinkYouDoButYouDont
This is amazing to listen to. He knows what’s going on. True gamers. Would love current Blizz to innovate a bit with some dungeons, maybe make a dungeon that’s not going to be in M+ or put it in M+ with an hour and a half timer or something.
This hurts my soul. They did the exact opposite of what they said.
Thats what im saying...
Oh how the times have changed.
How did you manage to F*** this up blizzard? Oh God, I wish they would return the original team of developers.
This is just sad. Too bad WoW went mainstream and new generation of gamers got a voice in what direction WoW went in.
The old design process in mmos like UO, EQ, WoW included things like effort=fun, now its ez mode=fun.
+GopStopBaba Indeed, and personally being an old WoW player myself, it makes me quite sad, even many of my friends i have on RealID, want to get things without putting an effort into them, and then there are so many who want free gear, same could be said about class changes, many ppl dont like complexity and seem to be happy with 3 spells in their bars coming in Legion, but the only difference is that unlike Vanilla, you can pull 5 mobs and still stay above 90% health, whether as melee or ranged.
You do know wow was soft core compared to it’s contemporary. It was more accessible then EQ, ff 11 and etc. wow was always about accessibility and cater to the masses. Nostalgia goggles messes with our perspective.
That comment at the beginning about being funnelled through content...
WoW went live without dungeon caps (well everything was capped at 40), three months IIRC. Anyway the community set their own cap on the bigger dungeons. Strat, Scholo and UBRS all had a 15-20 player cap. Meaning that people would ask how many players you had in the group and if it was approaching 15 it was more difficult to get players to join. At 20 players no one would join.
This was all loot based of course, the chance to get loot diminished too far.
Beta had no caps. Live had caps of 5 for most, Scholo and BRS had 15 and the raids were 40.
3:39 "Seeing too much of the same thing is tedious," and look at how raids are now. Do the same raid on multiple difficulty levels and call more content.
People took their time so awesomely, ima do that and take notes from these awesome people
honestly, WHERE IS THIS GUY TODAY? Please bring him back to WoW
He's over at Overwatch
I don't think Modern WoW is bad. There are lots of good things about it. But it is definitely not the game being talked about in this video, and I can totally understand why people miss moments like this. A studio that cared about the game and its players. It's a far cry from what we have today.
this
at 30 seconds in you already feel like blizz needs to go back in time.
I could listen to this all day
Jeff Kaplan!!! Jeff from the Overwatch team!
This is pure gold!
Seeing him say that he as a developer is going in and testing and revising things like scholomance in person is nice. Do you think Bobby has even touched this Warcraft in person?
Someone needs to send this to the sod team
"You don't wanna upset the community!" Nah, let's hope you dont this time.
An engineer of experiences.
Man this is pure gold.
1:45 surprised to hear about the burning crusade so early on in wow's life cycle. Though apparently it was announced as early as late october 2005.
If you read the quest lore around burning steppes badlands searing gorge, you know it's already coming
Took me at least 50 seconds to figure out that the “outdoor world” wasn’t referring to IRL.
Every developer making RPGs and ESPECIALLY those working on MMORPGs (Current WoW Devs!), Should have listen to this and take notes on it to use as a reference point as they design the game.
so many good ambitions. Where did it all go?
Miss the Blizzard of old :(
15:43 the beginning of the wrong path. Great design comes from within the designer and not from the customer.
Watching this in 2020 .. this game is sooo close to being a 180 of what it once was
Where can I buy this game? I really really want to play it. I would (hint,hint,hint) pay money to play a game like this.
I can't wait until this is truly back without private server drama and risk
Someone send this to new blizz team asap
That opening line.
I love how people say it's so much better before when half of the shit Jeff Kaplan said was : "I don't care about your opinion, I know better"
if only we knew the state of wow in 2021
Scarlet Monastery battleground was the best =D
I like the developers visions back in the days... sad to see most have gone and activision is now using wow only for profit.
boy if only blizzard still stayed with this thought process..
Hi, this is Jeff from the World of Warcraft team. o//
level 29 pally with 20 guys in wailing caverns.. ok now i heard everything
"They get resentful of they have to do a dungeon over and over again."
You bet your ass I do!
When the entire game mattered and not speed running the end game.
EVERYONE needs to watch this! So everyone can see why modern wow is now so TRASH
burning crusade was a mistake. they should've stopped listening to the community when the "community" didn't want BWL PTR'd.
People complaining obviously didn’t watch the end where he talks about being open to change 😂
Can someone please explain what is the difference between Wildstar when it was hardcore and vanilla WoW? If Wildstar couldn't survive why do so many WoW nerds think WoW will survive?
dungeon finder, trash pvp gameplay, trash lore. So many fed ex quests packed in one place at a time you vomite. Overall really boring experience. And finaly cash shop.
how far blizzard has fallen
Humble times
this is when Blizzard still cared..
These guys aka the original devs while yes, they wanted to make money. It is clear that the main focus was on making an awesome game and having the players be happy. Its one of the reasons that for the first 3 xpacs there was not a single drop in the playerbase. If anything it kept growing non stop.
Today's WoW devs only focus on "World First" bs, so its on Twitch. They are making the game for less than 100 players in the world. And months later the 99.9% of the playerbase gets to play it when 10 nerfs hit. And naturally. The main focus is the quarterly report. Make as much money as possible NOW. Not max out profits and health of the game over a period of X or Y.
If you were "there" back in 2004 when the game came out, it is indeed very hard to re-watch some of these things. Most of us old players have quit long ago. And I think that was 100% the right choice. But if you are still playing (Like me) its literally one case of frustration and hate after another. New players, or the ones that came in mid way thru etc probably dont have quite as many problems as they never really experienced the glory days.
The funniest part is when people start saying "Blizzard died 5 years ago" heh, no. Quite a bit longer than that im afraid.
J U S T
15:37 Wow 😥✊
oh man this is sad
Activision is notorious for ruining companies. Blizzard has survived the takeover, but not without experiencing much change
It's so sad watching this now. And Honestly I can only give Blizz about 80% of the blame
All retail devs need to do is watch the first 30 seconds of this video.
This was 2005???
Back when WoW had a soul
This time period of society - the vibes were immaculate
This is an absolute masterpiece.. who is that speaking?
Jeff Kaplan
Jeff from the Overwatch team..
Everyone in the comments without data are just spouting nonsense.
Activision did not change Blizzard creatively they are still independent and learn from other teams in the company and vice versa.
Blizzard always listens to the players even when some decisions were not good in hindsight. Just because you didn't want something changed or added doesn't mean there weren't others who did.
You are not a game designer and looking at what current games Blizzard is competing with you would not have kept these design decisions even if they are better for the game as a whole. If no one plays your super awesome game that takes forever to do anything then no one is playing your game.
Anyone else here speaking purely from a fan perspective should try making a game and see for themselves how "easy" it is to implement everything the fans want and what you want. It is not easy.
this is real blizzard
Extremely damning.
"with 39 of my friends"
LOL wut.
16:31 ouch bro
JUST AGGRO IT ALL I NEED EXP…. ARGGHH
Powerpoint.....blizzcon came a long ways.
Did they have this at a Best Western?
7:00 HACKTIVISION (blizzard)
Are you listening???!?
everyones eyes are a little red today cuz its 4 20
If they were able to construct instanced dungeons in 2004 ?
why didn't they put in sharding which is basically instanced zones.
Yeah. Don't fking shard me bro.
Why are there so many cuts? was he that unable to form sentences?
"3000 other people on the server"
LOL wut.
Blizzard is now about money and maintaining the egos of washed up developers whos surfing on old innovative game design.
Every patch, they take a shit in the ocean.
lol, how the Mighty have fallen.
13:45 to 13:55
Love the commitment to what the players want, but man oh man did it sound like the entire gameplay design was a tangled mess. Compared to what we have today, it almost sounds like designing stuff for the game was a free-for-all back then. I guess that's how the world buffs got put into Vanilla.
World Buffs was an unintended risks and boy, it helped defined the real vanilla experience.
yikes
>no chance to beat sm cath at lvl 30
laughs in classic beta
You guys fucked druids back then, nobody wanted us as tanks or even resto healer. Balance was the only option which we were worse than mages anyways...
Why am I here? :d
Actually. I know why. This video makes me sad, really sad. And I like to be sad :(