"God is not glorified at the expense of his creation, but at the expense of Himself for the sake of His creation" Leighton Flowers.That is the most profound statement in the entire debate!Thank you Jesus!Hallelujah!
@@andrewdavidson8167 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. St. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. It is not Leighton's system it is God's system. Yeah, Thank God, man is the most important to God because He loves mankind so much that He gave his only son. You'd better believe what God says and not the faulty Calvinistic system.
Dr Brown's personal testimony is what really stood out for me.The fact that when he adopted Calvinism, it was not a position he arrived at prayerfully, but through reading theology books and erroneous intellectualizing of the word of God.I think the same is probably true about most other people who become Calvinists.Sadly.
@Elroy So what do you do about all the Calvinists who turned to Calvinism after realizing Arminianism was what you described Calvinism is? Just over intellectualism but not biblical reading?
@@andrewdavidson8167 Both Calvinism and Arminianism is erroneous and unbiblical. The traditionalist view is the one that knows closely adheres to the clear teaching of scripture. Which I don't even like to call it a view at all just read the Bible, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Once you're saved sanctification begins till you die or are raptured then glorification lasts forever. Remember that scripture where Jesus said unless you come to me as a little child you have no part of me? All these systems are from the minds of sinful men. We all need the mind of Christ not the mind of Calvin or Arminus!
@Jdude I know it’s been a couple of weeks since this reply but I read it again and I just have to laugh at it I would encourage you to watch the debate between James White and the poster boy of traditionalism, Leighton Flowers, on the passage of Romans 9, which one was more sound in his exegesis? Which one was able to start with chapter 8 and give the broader context and walk through chapter 9? Which one made it clear that their method of interpretation was the same on this issue with that passage as with other issues and other passages? Like the Trinity? Leighton said no his method was not the same from doctrine to doctrine which means there is a huge inconsistency on his part I agree with that last paragraph you wrote, but do you believe that figures in the past that are looked up to as influential figures have the mind of Christ as well? Or are you one of the guys who just says everyone in academia is wrong? If so then stop it
Excellent. This was a much-needed exposition. Absolutely brilliant. What a wonderful God we serve. He delights in giving mercy. I can't help but worship him. Blessings to you.
Praise the Lord you believe God punishes two people for the one persons sins? That you believe Christ’ atonement is only sufficient if the sinner makes it to be? Okay. You’re further from the truth than you imagined my friend. Repent.
What a team! These two men did awesome and are awesomely appreciated. I share their same view point on most points of God's word. So refreshing to hear intelligent men unravel this issue with which many are confused.
@nicholas carter You can say that about anyone. That’s why we need to put a bigger emphasis on biblical theology vs systematic theology. That by the way is why I’m a Calvinist.
3:00 Like Dr. Brown says, the Bible conpare salvation is compared to a gift. No one is patted on the back for receiving a gift, but practically and legally speaking, you must accept a gift. It's a passive act but if you reject the gift, you either have a good reason or are a fool worthy of condemnation.
Loved Leighton's teaching on hardening of heart. That was a very clear and helpful explanation, which made a lot of sense. I am a big admirer of Dr Brown, agree with him on lots of issues, but also impressed by Leighton Flowers here.
When persecution hits America, and our bubble of comfort is popped this topic won't be in front line.... Preach Christ and be wholly devoted to Him and let God be God..
Paul was greatly persecuted, He preached Christ and was wholly devoted to Him. He let God be God. And still he dealt frequently with these truths. So I suspect your wrong.
Gregory Lum prove all things. There is only one God. It’s best to keep greek philosophy out of the bible. We who say there is no trinity do not deny the Father, the son, and the holy ghost. We believe they are one and the same. The son is God in a human existence. The Holy Ghost is God in action if you will. It says in Genesis 1 “the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters”. We don’t believe in a multi person God. We believe He is only one. We believe His name is JESUS. Everything we think we know must be tested with the Holy Scriptures.
@@carlopara4982 A couple points: 1) they're not "Arminians." 2) They continually pointed to the Scriptures AND THEIR CONTEXTS to make their points in this discussion.
@@carlopara4982 Your comment is incompetent. There is only God's breathed words in the Greek New Testament mss, nothing about Calvin or Arminius. Calvinism and those following Arminius are not going to find their doctrines in God's breathed words. Calvinism, it's 9-not 5- points are easily refuted from Genesis to Revelation, beginning with their definition of Sovereign and Miticulous Determinism. Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 are God saying that the Jews did what NEVER entered His mind!
I John 3:14 says, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death." This was the piece that remained so far from me when I was learning r scriptures under this Calvinist doctrine. Now that I've been released from it and understand the scriptures more clearly, the Lord is answering my years-old prayers that He give me love for brethren. I was concerned for a long while that although I was learning so much doctrine, my love for others was not increasing. But I think that goes back to the fact that I had a distorted view of God, and that view was not of a loving Father, but actually a cruel and mercurial one who did not take us into account at all. When I go back into the scriptures now, I see that yes, He is holy and He is firm in His judgment, and what He says goes, but the whole story from beginning to end shows His great love for us, and His great desire to be reconciled to each and every one of us. Each one of us is offered "a way to escape." I have had to repent of the caricature that I created and presented to the world of my God's unexplicably loving character. I pray that more people's eyes are opened to who our God really is, and how wonderful and patient and gracious He is towards each and every one of us. 🙏🏼
I like how Dr. Flowers was all apologetic when an audience member got offended, but Dr. Brown was blunt and unapologetic in his response. I liked Dr. Brown's response.
1 Peter 3:15 (KJV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:...and they do...God's be the Glory...These men are blessed...❤
Here's James White annoyed by Leighton Flower's metaphors... ua-cam.com/video/wcQHdjNvUe4/v-deo.html ([KSC] MHB - Captain Kirk annoyed by McCoy's metaphors!)
I am a Calvinist, but I appreciate both of these brothers. I may not agree with their soteriology, but I appreciate the opportunity to hear them express their views. I believe that listening to those who disagree with you will either strengthen your understanding of your own view or change it to a more biblical perspective. I hope we all stay out of the echo chamber and listen to what others have to say.
Calvin’s god comes across to me as cruel and arbitrary. This is not merciful and kind like my Heavenly Father. My God is love and loved me even when I was His enemy. Excellent Dr. Brown. Bless your heart.
I like the fact they address the view Calvinists have that those of us who reject Calvinism put humans on a "pedestal" regarding salvation. They talk about how in actuality, believing that we carry all the blame when we reject God puts MORE responsibility on us regarding our depravity than believing we aren't in any way capable of accepting God.
Believing is not man centered. Believing is God’s action requirement . As calvinists look out for God’s well-being, they miss the entire point of what He has done and the only thing he requires. Submission… admitting, we can do nothing. As an elect person or at least believing they may be elect, they could realistically believe they are better than they are. As non-Calvinist’s we believe true Christianity is the antithesis of man centered, we only come to God when we finally realize we can do nothing. We Believe He can save us, that’s it and that’s the only thing our sovereign God requires.
I know that before I was born of the Spirit I didn't have a desire for the things of God until I hit my 17th birthday. For almost a year I was intensely seeking for some thing. I wanted to know who the true God was. I was discouraged with my early religious upbringing in the Catholic faith so that was out. I began to study ancient Greek philosophers and other texts like the analects of Confucius and other writings. Something happened to me when I was reading through some of the works of the Stoic philosopher Markus Aurelius who was also a Roman Emperor. He made this statement, "You must at last perceive who your God is." That was the way this English translation translated it using a capital G in the word God. It was like the words popped out of the page at me. I was stunned. I thought about it a long time and realized I didn't know who God was. Was He Allah, or what Buddha taught about reality or any number of concepts dealing with ultimate reality? I didn't really know, but I wanted to know. This was back in the late 1960s when many of us were influenced by Eastern religious philosophy and thought. There was some thing called finding yourself. I thought that was what I needed. I did have that experience but was disappointed because I realized how sinful I was. I thought it would something wonderful but knew than that I wasn't. After these happenings I had a Black brother witness to me on the back of a Greyhound Bus about being born of the Spirit. I knew intuitively that what he was saying was what I needed. I already had the awareness that I was sinful and his witness of the gospel showed me that Jesus provided salvation already for me. I become a new creature in Christ. I was saved and born anew March 12, 1968 in Detroit. If it wasn't for the ministry of the Holy Spirit intervening I could have been lead astray into Eastern thought or deception. What happened to me was like what we read about in John 6: 44 that we can't even come to God unless He draws us. I was being drawn that whole year until I heard the gospel and quickly responded when I was told what to believe and receive. Thank God, though I was dead in my sins He drew me out of that horrible pit and put a new song in my heart and saved me to the uttermost.
Dr. Brown says that he disagrees with the doctrine "because constantly in the Bible we are told to choose, choose choose ,choose." I agree! Calvinist believe that man does have to choose God....but that is done after they have been given a new nature, a nature that wants to choose God and is able to do so. Not a sin nature that is a slave to sin, corrupt and spiritually dead. And so they misrepresent when they say that Calvinism teaches that man doesn't choose God.
Apologia5 Well, Calvinism starts with the fact that man has compatibilistic freedom. Man makes choices according to his nature, but that nature is decreed by God and the man cannot do otherwise. That’s no different than animal instinct. Calvinists have a habit of leaving out that important fatalistic bit that ultimate puts everything back onto God and removes man’s responsibility, no matter how the Calvinist tries to put makeup on it.
@@BK-yz7px "and removes man’s responsibility" Actually that's what Arminians misrepresent the reformed position as saying. No Calvinist ever removes man's responsibility. Because of God's Sovereignty, man's responsibility matters even more. There's no need for "make-up" cause that's just what the Bible says.
Randy Couture The you might want to take a look at the compatibilism Calvinists teach. It ultimately leads to fatalistic beliefs. There’s no way around it, no matter how Calvinists try to paint it. The moment you believe a person can actually do other than what they are doing, you believe in some level of libertarian freedom. Both compatibilism and hard determinism deny this. Calvinists love to paint this picture as though man is libertarianly making the choice to reject God, and then God has to come in and save some. But that’s not Calvinism at all. In compatibilism, man makes choices according to his nature and that nature is determined and decreed by God. And the big kicker - NO ONE can do other than what they are doing. No matter how you slice it, it leads to fatalism and is no different than animal instinct.
@@BK-yz7px " Calvinists love to paint this picture as though man is libertarianly making the choice to reject God" No no nope, this is you kicking down and burning up a strawman. Never met a calvinist who ever said humans have a libertarian free will. You don't have a free will. Your will is not free. Your will is captive to sin and the devil. That's what Jesus said and that's what the apostles wrote down. And because your will is captive to these entities, choices you make are always inclining themselves to adhere to their will and that's why everyone needs rescuing. No one rescues themselves, and in fact *no one wants* to be rescued, before anyone believes they're rolling around in the mud enjoying their filth oblivious of the ill effects around them. John 8:34....Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin 2 Timothy 2:25-26...The minds of unbelievers have been taken captive to do the devil's will Romans 7 is an entire lament by Paul about how he does things he doesn't want to do because in verse 18 he recognizes that nothing good dwells in his sinful nature. If you want to talk about foreign beliefs being imported into the Bible then you have to go no further than pelagianism and arminianism. You believe you have good that dwells in your sinful nature and that your will is totally free to choose God without Him first intervening. That's not a Biblical concept. In every single story of redemption in the Bible, every single one, God is the one who acts first. Every time. Arminians and pelagians say in the issue of salvation that man acts first and then God second. Again, that's not Biblical. God is the one who intervenes and rescues unbelievers from their filth, and He gets 100% of the Glory, not 99.9%, but 100%. The big disconnect is you want to say you contributed to your salvation.
Calvinist: Arminians never engage in deep exegesis or respond to our arguments. Arminian: Writes 500 page book engaging in verse by verse exegesis and lengthy responses to Calvinistic arguments. Calvinist: You're just saying that because you want to take credit for your own salvation. Arminians never engage in deep exegesis or respond to our arguments.
Lol I think the fact that Calvinists exist, is the best evidence for Calvinism. There is no way someone could believe it unless God was forcing them too 😂
"God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so." A.W. Tozer When Dr. Brown read that quote, I was like, "Wow..." Love it!
Well, Calvinism is a doctrine of demons, and there is a religious pride demon working in their false religion as a counterfeit holy spirit. Te false God of Calvinism is who the devil would be if he were God not who God actually is. I wonder if the demon who receives this reverence is named "Sovereign" or "Sovereignty" because this false church invokes this word in such a way--much more so than to Jesus Christ.
Referencing Matthew 7:17-18 where Jesus says that, "a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor an a bad tree produce good fruit", the questioner asked, "doesn't this imply that a bad tree cannot make good choices/decisions?". (14:20) Dr. Brown rightly stated that the context is that of discerning false prophets, not whether someone was able to make a decision for the LORD ... but it would be helpful to just look at the other question that would arise from that type of logic: "Does this somehow imply that a good tree cannot make a bad choice/decision?" Of course, *no one* would say that, and therefore it is completely inconsistent for a Calvinist to attempt to go there with that passage.
“Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48 NKJV This is a tough one to refute…
Neither Flowers or Brown addressed the question about Ephesians 2:2-3. Why ? Because their bias prevents it. Those who are by nature children of wrath are also children of disobedience. Hence the children of wrath will not obey the gospel and believe unless they are quickened first. The Salvation of a child of wrath is accomplished by a creative work of God which is certain to come to pass.
The Salvation of a child of wrath is accomplished by a creative work of God which is certain to come to pass. I imagine the following to be that creative work! Also in Ephesians. We couldn't see the extent of "it is finished" the earth quaked and the rock split at the foot of the Cross, Christs blood was released by the Roman soldier who pierced his side. While Six hundred years earlier The Ark of the Covenant was moved.. Solomon prepared for its hiding and Jeremiah moved it precisely under the cross yet future! GOLGOTHA. THE WITNESS OF THE BLOOD IN THE STARS.. REVELATION 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The Rabbi's keep the tablets of stone and the blood (testimony) found on the mercy seat. I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourn for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ENMITY is what exists now the solution is in the Fathers witness! 1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believe on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believe not God hath made him a liar; because he believe not the record that God gave of his Son. For it is by His grace we are rescued, through faith; and this is not of yourselves, but it is the gift of Elohim. (when opened). 9. Not of works, or else anyone glory (in themselves). 10. For we are His creation who are created in Y'shua the Mashiyach for good works which Elohim has before prepared for us to walk in. 11. Wherefore be mindful that you formerly were carnal Gentiles; and you were called the uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision of which is the work of the hands in the flesh. 12. And you were, at that time, without the Mashiyach; and were aliens from the Devarim of Israel; and strangers to the covenant of the promise; and were without hope and without Elohim in the world. 13. But now, by Y'shua the Mashiyach, you who before were afar off, have been brought near by the Blood of the Mashiyach. 14. He is Himself our peace, who has made the two (become) ONE
If faith is not a gift from God (his power), then by necessity it is a work (Gk. "ergon"=energy/power i.e., my own mind conjuring up "faith"). Both Arminians and Calvinists affirm "faith alone," therefore Arminians contradict themselves. This is proven by the simple question: "Why does one person repent and receive Christ, while another rejects him based on the same information?" The debate ends with the 72:1 verses in favor of Calvinism in the Bible, but the "nuclear option" for the Calvinist is the following: "This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" Rom. 9:8-21
Amen. We are saved BY grace, through faith. God's grace is what effectively brings salvation. Grace is first and faith is the natural response of sinners made alive by the call of God. We could no more refuse our saviour than Lazarus could resist Jesus command to rise from the dead.
I would modify the analogy... there is no rope that we take, there is a will that he help us and instead of throwing a rope, he reaches down and grabs men with his own hands who will respond in faith to his drawing.
Flowers asked in 1:05:57 why Paul would try to persuade someone about Jesus if he believed some people are predestined to accept Christ and others not. Does he really think that hasn't been answered yet?
I suspect his intention is not to present and respond to the best reformed theologians have offered over the years, but to protect against the growth of reformed theology. It's why formal moderated debates are ao valuable. You have the two sides interacting, which informs the audience.
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This has actually been available for a couple months on the Condemned To Salvation Conference page. It’s just that Dr. Brown just got permission to post this on his own page.
@@duskacornwell5932 It might only look arbitrary to us, but we dont know if he chose us due to some reason or not. We will never have access to his infinite wisdom. Also, important thing to note, the other four people DID NOT WANT to get out of the pit. They loved it there.
@@maxzeblade Jesus used allegories too. And the debate is between calvinism and arminianism. We are just using words to communicate, dont think too much into it. This rule that anything ISM is of man- thats extrabiblical and of man too.
@@maxzeblade God does not draw all to himself. This was the context of John 6:44 where Jesus was trying to explain why some just wouldnt believe him. Calvinism doesnt negate human choice, it ADDS to it. It agrees that you have to choose God, but it also says God is mysteriously in control of that choice too without affecting your free will. Read philipians 2:13. Arminianism, which is the popular held Christian view of salvation, believes only in human choice. It does not take into account verses like philip 2:13, acts 13:48, acts 16:14, romans 8:29,30 etc
I don't know , it seemed like the last speaker was using John 3:16 incorrectly? Isn't it the offer of grace to everyone? The gift of salvation that needs to be answered by our faith in the Christ. He made it sound like John 3:16 and similar N.T. verses are the end instead of the beginning to ones faith journey. It made Armainianism look kinda shallow. John chapter 3 and 6 go much deeper than that. I admit Calvinism is a hard lesson to learn, and it comes with the pain realizing that people around us aren't saved but I need the truth in this sea of lies that is the natural world. The gift of the cross and hearing the word spread by believers is the bridge that Armainians are trying to cross.
I loved this..Praise GOD... thanks Dr Brown... and Dr Flowers. Doctrines of man. Theres this cross.. Did God send His only son? Do you believe He is who He said He was? You believe or you don't :) So ask HIM..if He is who He said He was.. ask from your heart and HE WILL answer! What else is there? Ask the Father for the Holy Spirit Then.. let HIM lead.. Faith " God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith"
That’s a good point. Are we born to hate God first then he changes us for his glory and ability to save us. Or can we be raised to love God since birth and continue that. But there will always be some to resent their parents. It’s been going on forever.
I am so glad that Dr. Brown corrected flowers on the hardened state of humanity, that we are in fact haters of God by nature and birth. I have way more respect for Dr. brown’s theology.
Matt. 7:15f. is not a text about how you can tell believers from unbelievers, at least according to Jesus. He says He's talking about "false prophets", not how to tell who is saved and who is not. Assumptions kill good Bible study.
I think Dr. Brown does a pretty poor job with his life boat illustration. The difference between monergism and synergism has to do with cooperation. The synergist believes that man must cooperate with God, in order to be saved. Grabbing hold of a life boat is cooperation. When you cooperate with someone, you are by definition contributing to something. The person who grabs hold of the lifeboat is contributing to their salvation.
So grabbing on to the life preserver when your drowning would be a work? Simply believing is now considered a work? Your doing a work to contribute to your salvation?
@Loves2HugItOut Remember you also must hold on to the life preserver all you life. Then you picked up....finally. 😅 That is not blessed assurance. That is eternal insecurity. Think about the implications of libertarian free will. Do we still keep it in Heaven?
Idk about Dr. Flowers' views, but I know Dr. Brown is a Charismatic Christian. I don't agree with that branch of Christianity, but that doesn't mean I reject all views he has. The same goes for Calvinist pastors; I don't agree with them regarding that specific belief, but I can find sermons they give on other topics very enlightening.
Remember the Roman's 9 debate L.F. had with James White....yikes! All and all, I love these discussions as we wrestle through the deep things of God and His Word....although I disagree with these fine gentlemen.
TheGanner Yikes was right. James White refused to deal with the points of contention and reneged on his pre-debate agreement. Flowers has shown proof of the pre-debate exchange, and White fully approved of Flowers’ approach to the text. Yet the man turns around and cries like a baby as if he had no clue Flowers was trying to specifically key in on the points of contention between the Calvinist and non-Calvinist interpretations of Romans 9 and why they differ.
TheGanner It’s easy to say that when you either are ignorant of James White’s actions or choose to ignore his tactics. The guy completely reneged in his pre-debate agreement. He’s the one who actually derailed the debate because he was NOT dealing with the points of contention. That was the whole purpose. It was never to just read Romans 9. All of the Christians before Augustine and EVERY other Christian group outside of Calvinism DO NOT interpret Romans 9 like a Calvinist. There’s a reason for that, and that needs to be shown. If James White was debating the Trinity against a Oneness or Unitarian person, imagine how James White would feel if that Oneness or Unitarian person forces White to stay on one single text without the ability to bring in other texts to explain the overall picture of God’s nature. White would be crying foul at that. Romans 9 has a context and is NOT meant to be an isolated passage.
@@BK-yz7px I understand your point regarding the use of the entirety Scripture...and I get what L.F. was trying to accomplish. I respect that. I'm not trying to throw stones at either L.F. or M.B. I appreciate them both for their zeal and knowledge of Scripture...and their Christlike character. But my opinion is clearly different than yours regarding the Romans 9 debate. L.F. was arguing against Calvinism and not so much against Rom 9.
TheGanner You also have to keep in mind that this was Dr. Flowers’ very first major public debate. In any other area of life, rookies get a little bit of grace compared to a seasoned veteran. I’m sure a seasoned debater would have seen what was going on and adjusted accordingly on the spot. But I do think all of the background evidence that I’m aware of suggests that White pulled a fast one on Dr. Flowers, taking advantage of his inexperience to paint him in a bad light to the public. But I think anyone who takes an objective step back can see what Dr. Flowers was getting at. As I mentioned earlier, non-Calvinists don’t view Romans 9 as the Calvinist does and there’s a reason and explanation for that. That’s what I keep saying. What really should have come out of the debate was the actual points of contention, but Dr. White got so caught up in formal debate rules and attacked Dr. Flowers’ hermeneutics (which actually is the majority view of Christendom in the grand scope) that he distracted from the whole point of the debate. It was a debate red herring. Dr. Flowers didn’t do anything that wasn’t agreed upon in pre-debate discussions.
I'm Arminian (Although, I never even knew there was a word for my beliefs until I discovered Calvinism years ago), and I also do *not* agree with once saved, always saved. I know you don't have to be Calvinist to believe in that, but it's also a belief that makes zero sense to me. I watched this years ago, but I need to watch it again.
I really don't understand how people go to an university and get a doctorate in theology and still don't get the 101 basics of salvation and the Gospel!. Salvation is a very easy thing to grasp and understand if you let the bible speak for itself.Here is the 101 easy understanding of redemption: 1-Sin was brought to humankind (ALL THE WORLD) by Adam and Eve through disobedience to God. 2-Through one man (Adam) all the world (all his descendants) inherited a sinful nature and therefore all are under condemnation by God. 3-If ALL are under the slavery of sin and condemnation logically ALL must be rescued from slavery and death. 4-Jesus came to undo the works of Satan and free ALL those who were under bondage and slavery by offering ALL those who believe in him eternal life. 5-If ,as Calvinist claim , God gave His only begotten Son as an atonement for sin to a selected predestined group of people only.Then that would imply that the rest of the world (the ones not elected),are created and allowed to exist for the sole purpose of making them suffer an eternal punishment in hell!. 6-If point #5 is correct, are we more merciful and loving than God?.If we imperfect and sinful creatures would not create human clones for the sole purpose of sending them to a place of torment and torture here on earth, how could we envision our creator to do such thing and still worship him.The answer is, NO WE ARE NOT MORE LOVING AND MERCIFUL THAN GOD.Therefore God mercy and love would not ever allow such thing as creating beings for the sole purpose of torment and pain without the choice of avoiding such miserable and sad ending. GRACE MOST BE OFFERED TO ALL WHO ARE SINNERS because a SINFUL nature is the only condition for which Jesus atonement could be effective and valid!.You must be a SINNER for Jesus atonement to be effective, a sinless, righteous and perfect man (Adam before the fall) does not have the need of an atonement.Only those who are under the curse of sin need to be liberated from that curse.If Calvinists are as much as sinners as the rest of humankind , why then Jesus atonement be effective and valid to Calvinists only while ineffective and invalid to the rest who meet the same SINFUL requirement (as Calvinist do) of Jesus atonement?. That is why the Bible says " God so loved the WORLD (ALL SINNERS) that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever ( ALL OF THOSE THAT ARE IN THE WORLD) believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". The whole world (ALL) have the opportunity and offer of grace/mercy but ONLY those (the sheep that hear Jesus voice and follow him) who make the decision of accepting God grace are to BE SAVED!. So you see, by one man (Adam) SIN and condemnation/death entered humanity (ALL THE WORLD) and by one man ( Jesus) righteousness and salvation/eternal life was brought as an offering to ALL those who believe in the Son of the ALL MIGHTY GOD OF ISRAEL!.If salvation and eternal life would be for only a selected group of people that would imply that the UNIVERSAL ("GOD SO LOVE THE WORLD") expression of an offering of salvation was a lie. My dear friends GOD CAN NOT LIE OR DECEIVE because God is TRUTHFUL,JUST AND HOLY. You don't need a doctorate to know God's plan of salvation, God made it very simple and easy for us to understand and follow Jesus road to heaven.Through Him, Jesus is the door and we ALL are offered (grace) the key (faith) to get into heaven!.Go and get the key to unlock the door (Jesus) that will give you eternal life and joy in our God kingdom
When Paul was speaking early in Romans 1 and beyond,he said ALL men have the Light of conscience and Light of creation within ALL of us.So no man is without any excuse.if that is So,then it says men can seek God despite thier sinful nature.Otherwise God would NOT command men to Repent-it would be senseless if calvanism was correct.
Flowers' analogy at the beginning is an exact depiction of how ALL people are. So for you to believe we can still choose God is foolish. Armenians try so hard to protect God. God is completely sovereign over EVERYTHING. If a car accident kills 5 kids, or if a tornado wipes out an entire town, people with your beliefs try to shield God from the blame. You also try to protect God for not choosing everyone to be saved. God does not want us to protect Him. He want the world that He is in complete control and NOTHING happens, good or bad, without Him either causing it or allowing it. Isaiah 45:1-7 *Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed: 2 “I will go before you and level the exalted places, I will break in pieces the doors of bronze and cut through the bars of iron, 3 I will give you the treasures of darkness and the hoards in secret places, that you may know that it is I, the LORD, the God of Israel, who call you by your name. 4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me. 5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, 6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. 7I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things*
I bought them and got caught up with a book from spurgeon “soul winner” also will be starting school soon SRL Reformed Bible study. I strongly believed Gid has blessed the ministry of those that have the Calvinistic view even tho these two gentlemen are still call my brothers in Christ
Notice whenever someone attempts to refute Calvinism it always involves analogies and eisegisis? They're spending more of their time explaining away scriptures rather than subjecting their worldview to them. I respect my fellow brothers in Christ, but I submit my worldview to an all knowing and sovereign God. If I grab the rope I'm still the author of my own salvation, it is still "works." Calvinists still believe in free will, just no free will involving our justification and rebirth in the body of Christ. So we still retain biblical responsibilities for our actions and are in need of repentance, while simultaneously holding to God's pure sovereignty in its totality. Dr. Brown is still one of my favorite theologians and I appreciate what he does for our community against the counter missionaries.
It’s hard to see how someone can remain an Arminian when “Calvinist” doctrine is consistently and faithfully presented to them. There are “apparent” contradictions with Arminian theology that just isn’t consistently harmonized when someone walks through the texts honestly. Reading John 6:39, 44 & 10 with the backdrop of 1:13 will help reconcile 12:32 and Jesus high priestly prayer in 17 when Christ says He doesn’t pray on “behalf of the world” aka those who aren’t born of the spirit in contrast to flesh & man’s will (John 1:13). I was an Arminian for the majority of my walk and when I came to these apparent contradictions the Arminian view continuously jumped around and never consistently harmonized the doctrines of the NT. These are bright men but they simply don’t have a consistent interpretation that is able to harmonize the entire Bible. Specifically they have a different view on the doctrine of God’s Sovereignty that makes them view scripture through the Arminian perspective.
@@AtomicSea A wide, a very wide gulf that's keeps getting wider as the Holy Spirit leads me to increase understanding and wisdom. The wonderous miracle of having my eyes opened has exploded the Bible open like a field of beautiful flowers. Praise the Lord!!! It has revealed so much behind the words that a majority of people gloss over because they have no understanding. Along with seeing the amazing revelations comes a more disturbing view, that is seeing the many deceptions of the devil. The cleverness and elaborateness of the devil's traps it makes me shutter and hair stand on end. One of the most elaborate deceptions was via the works of Jean Cauvin in Geneva. What would drive a mere man (a humanist too) to demand he and only he was the voice of God, when he spoke it was God speaking?? Is this the mark of a godly man or a puppet of Satan?
Paul Pacheco John 3:16.. God so loved the world. 1 Timothy 2:4-6.. a ransom for all. John 12:32.. will draw all men. Romans 1:16-26.. manifested knowledge. Luke 2:9-11.. to all people. Acts 17:30-31.. all men. Romans 3:26-30.. faith is not a work. Romans 3:31.. we establish the law through faith. Romans 5:18-21.. free gift upon all men. Matthew 11:28.. come unto me, all. Acts 17:26-27.. he be not far from every one of us. Matthew 22:1-14.. the called did not listen. Matthew 14:31.. doubt is Peters fault. Matthew 15:28.. great is YOUR faith. 2 Peter 2:1.. Jesus bought the damned too. Matthew 19:24-26.. who can be saved?.. all things are possible. Matthew 23:37-39.. Jesus would have gathered Jerusalem.
Actually Dr. Brown, reformed folks aren't the one who say that, the Bible says that in Ephesians 1:5-7: In love He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he Loves. 1)God predestines people for adoption to sonship through Christ 2)This predestination is in accordance with His will and pleasure and not based on any merit 3)This is all for the praise of His infinite glorious Grace 4)This Grace is freely given to those He loves. 5)There are those who are not given this glorious Grace. That's what the Bible says. With that said, I thank God for men like you Dr. Brown.
Randy Couture Interesting that you left out the verses before that which show the context of Ephesians 1 - a corporate statement to those who are already believers in the church at Ephesus. Adoption is a future event, just like in Romans 8. That is what God predestined for believers, along with blessings, promises, and being sanctified. That’s the whole theme of Ephesians 1 in context. And you also left out verse 13 that explicitly says how an individual gets into the corporate chosen body of Christ (“In Him”) when they hear the gospel, believe, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1 does NOT teach that God predestines people to believe or not believe. You Calvinists love to leave out important information that comes before and after your prooftexts.
@@BK-yz7px "to those who are already believers in the church at Ephesus" Yes Paul is writing to Christians and telling them that the reason they believe is because they were recipients of God's Grace alone before there ever was a planet earth...And that this Grace was freely given and invoked zero works. Again, God's Grace, that does not originate with them or their good works, but originates from God's own purpose and will and this Grace is given freely to those He loves. Arminianism flips the order of what Paul is saying. Arminianism says: God's grace is given to those who love God first. Paul writes that Grace is given freely to those God loves first. And that God's Grace Before you get to verse 13, you first need to affirm verses 1-12, and even then what you bring up in verse 13 doesn't change the exegesis at all. Verse 13: " And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" 1)Inclusion in Christ on earth happens when one first hears the message of truth. I fully affirm this. The Gospel needs to be preached to everyone. 2)When someone believes, the Holy Spirit acts as a seal that marks them out as authentic believers in the sense that true believers produce the fruit of the Spirit and they are protected and preserved to persevere until the end. "leave out important information" I didn't leave out important information out of a sense of malice but in order to highlight some very specific important points that get left out, and more specifically to respond to Dr. Brown's specific comments on the fact that it's the Bible that says God predestines people, not John Calvin.
@@BK-yz7px Regeneration precedes faith. God takes out of hearts of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. Predestination preceeds faith and is the cause of faith, not the other way around. Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Phil Blagden Acts 13:16 tells you who is in the area - Israelites and Gentiles who feared God. The Gentiles who feared God already were immediately ready to receive the gospel once it was revealed to them (same as Cornelius in Acts 10 and Lydia in Acts 16). But these weren’t people out there hating God and were just randomly zapped at that moment to believe. You’re wrong. There are 16 verses in the Bible that clearly put faith before regeneration. Even John says his gospel was written so that whoever reads it could believe in Christ and have eternal life (John 20:31). Again, Calvinists love to rip prooftexts out of context and ignore what comes before and after, and Acts 13:48 is a prime example. Also, if you believe the Calvinist interpretation of Acts 13:48 is correct then I guess no one else in that town was ever saved after that. “As many as” suggests 100 percent. So if all of the predestined elect people came to faith all at once, what’s the point of even preaching the gospel in that area after that? I don’t think y’all think out these things.
Randy Couture Yes you did leave out important information. Understanding the audience is vital to understanding the context. Calvinists ALWAYS ignore and hide that when dealing with Ephesians 1. And your explanation is filled with Reformed presuppositions. I’ll give you a challenge. Can you find me one early church father prior to Augustine - who actually lived closest to the context of this passage - who interpreted Ephesians 1 in a Calvinistic way? I’d be interested in reading that because I’m yet to find it.
I swear fewer people understand Arminianism than Calvinism. They aren't opposites! Arminius WAS a 4 point Calvinist! But none of the 5 points are true. And Dr. Brown isn't even an Arminian. He just more closely agrees with the Arminian position on this point of salvation than the completely nonsensical Calvinistic position. But the thing is--it doesn't really matter because it's like saying God effectually draws us to salvation in two different ways and one sees it as happening all the time--we just don't notice until we need to (Traditionalism), and the other is that God draws when He knows you are ready (Arminianism). Both say you have an obligation to respond and both believe it is God who does the saving.
im no Calvanist at all,yet i trust and believe in Jesus for over 50 years.now how can that be. i NEVER hated God,never,but i was an agnostic in my early years.i dont know of any people that ive been with that said they hated God,an when i was going to college i met many atheists,deists,agnostics .
Boy that is long winded first answer from Dr. Brown. The simple answer is YHWH gives us the authority and power to decide whether we accept God's Judgement of ourselves and whether we want to Repent and Turn to God and accept His Work of dealing with our sin and His Gift to empower us to overcome our narcissistic nature.
Not to be obtuse, but where did you get this idea that God gives this "authority and power to accept his judgement" from the Scriptures? Could you provide something besides your assertion to back that up? And not to prooftext, but what about Ephesians 2:8-10? I believe if you read Ephesians 1-2:10 you will see that it directly refutes this assertion you have made. I know I'm not going to convince anyone through a youtube comment, but I would seriously challenge you to search the Scriptures and pay attention to whose perogatives are operating in salvation? Is it almighty man? Or is it a sovereign God who saves to the praise of his glorious grace? And don't start with strawmen claiming Calvinism creates robots or whatever. A sovereign God and his will are compatible with limited creatures acting as they desire. Analogies always break down, but here's one I think helps. In 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, was Capt. Nemo ramming and destroying ships willingly? Yes, he was. Ah, but Jules Verne wrote the story. When we write like this, we are emulating our Father in heaven because as we all know, he is the author of all creation. He is separate from the creation as to his nature, and when we write, so are we. The character Verne created had his own will, his own desires, yet he "...did whatever your hand predestined to occur." (The 'your' being Verne here, though the scripture parallels this nicely. Acts 4:27-28) This is the nature of the relationship. Nemo is still responsible for his murder despite his role in the author's plan. I hope this helped someone at least better understand compatablism. If you believe in the autonomous free will of man (that is, not dependent on God in any way) you cannot account for God's future knowledge, because if he knows what you are going to do, and it can't change (as God's knowledge is perfect) then you're in the same boat us Reformed folks are. If he knows your action, yet you can change it (thus violating his perfect knowledge), then you've got the wrong God. In any case, thanks for reading, God bless.
I love how they're talking about the importance of CONTEXT in this video. A verse by itself can appear on the surface to support Calvinism, but the verses before and after show that what's being talked about does NOT support Calvinism at all.
You had no say in your physical birth, same goes with your spiritual birth it was supernatural as Jesus said in John 3, you must be born again or born from above. So God alone decides who will be saved, people don't like that, but yet trust in God to save sinners when apparently it's up to man to choose God for salvation. You have a huge problem when you reject God's sovereignty, man has control now, not God. And you may think what's the problem with that? It means man can thwart God's plans, which is not possible Job 42:2.
Biblical Theology saying I have no say in my spiritual birth is like saying my mom had all boys so I’ll have all boys. You can’t connect two different ideas just because they’re comparable in wording.
Rejecting Calvinism and determinism doesn’t mean you reject God’s sovereignty. God sovereignly decided to allow us to choose him and be saved, or reject him and be lost.
You make it so difficult .....look at the theif on the cross ....you will be with me in paradise ....my son wanted to part ways bec of dumb calvinisn. I raised him in the Lord .. now he acts like he is above ...toooo awful. You need compassion ...tell others about Jesus ...quit bringing them to your religion ...bring them to JESUS ...I BRING THE GOSPEL. LETS TALK ABOUT JESUS
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved;) (Ephesians 2:5, KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:6, KJV) The scripture is about what happened when God raised Jesus from the dead. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, (Ephesians 1:20, KJV)
Open theism is almost never understood correctly by those who reject it. I don't know a single open theist that says that God can't know something without causing it (2:39:00) . What we do say is that if everything you ever do is foreknown with absolute certainty then you are not free. Also open theists do not deny God's omniscience. God knows all that is true and real, but unmade free decisions do not exist to be known until they are made.
A testimony of asking Jesus into your heart is not a boasting. It's turning your life over to him. Calvanists in my opinion are projecting their narcissistic views of God and their own saving upon anyone who disagrees with them and those that scholars that have taught them this false doctrine. They're belief system is completely pointless.
God does whatever He pleases in heaven and on earth. Psa 135:6; Dan 4:34-35; Psa 33;6,9-11; since this is true, according to both speakers, it would please God to save everyone. the question is....WHY are some lost and sent to hell?
Well limited atonement is NOT Biblical.God does not pick and choose some elect before he created us. God commands ALL men everywhere to Repent.Calvanism denies this very clear Scripture in acts.And your right as no Calvanist can answer your question.,because its again just wrong!! Even the earliest Reformers rejected the L in tulip/
@@bobfree1226 you really should read this book.. "From Heaven He Came and Sought Her: Definite Atonement in Historical, Biblical, Theological, and Pastoral Perspective"
@@rbmath i have asked you one of the ultimate questions based on Scripture,and most calvanists cant answer it. God does do what He pleases and wills. But Scripture says He commands All men Everywhere to Repent,an Gods light is in all men john 1 verse 4-9.Just because man is a sinner and can not gain Salvation,does not mean he cant Repent and come to God thru Jesus and Believe.we see it over and over in the Bible.Paul underscores this when he says God even appoints mens times and places so that they might find Him. How can you not get this. it is these clear scriptures that even DR Brown and Dr Flowers agree 100% and many others.ive read all the books out there and calvanism is wrong period.again almost ALL early reformers rejected Limited Atonement.which Calvin Himself called Terrible and Dreadful. Enough said.From the beginning of the bible to the end it says Choose,Choose.stop looking thru the lens of calvanism which i did years ago an it is so clear.
@@bobfree1226 Everyone is commanded to repent. Yet we can't do so unless it is granted to us. Those who did not receive Grace will still be doomed according to the desires of their hearths. Everyone knows God to such an extent that they are unapologetous when they deny him. The lost suppress the truth, so they are guilty. Still God is under no obligation to grant faith and repentance to anyone.
Summary of this soteriology is that the reason someone becomes saved is because they made a wise decision but someone didn't. This is wholesomely unbiblical. Why is it when some people leave cults like Mormonism or Roman Catholicism, some end up as staunch atheists and others become Christians? What's the difference between those two? They both discovered their respective cults were false yet one of them ended up going one way and the other the opposite direction. The Bible says God was the difference, because the sheep know their shepherd's voice and follow Him. Man-centered theology says the guy who became a Christian made a wise decision by themselves. If we all have the ability to save ourselves and God will not interfere with anyone's "libertarian free will", why bother praying for unbelievers to become saved? Aren't you in essence praying that God violates their free-will and takes over by leading them to the truth? Something to think about!
Neither Paul, John, Luke, or Peter were Calvinists. Calvinism is a 17th century theology born out of egregious misinterpretations of multiple passages of scripture.
Excellent, excellent, excellent. These are two men of God teaching the word of God in the wisdom and understanding that only the Holy Ghost can give. Calvinism is really a warp teaching which says God is responsible for every evil act ever committed under heaven. God did not ordain evil, nor does He condemn certain people to hell apart from their own rejection of His grace and mercy. Evil is the result of breaking God’s command. When God gave a command to the sun to be the ruler of the day. The sun still continues to obey a God’s command. When He ordered the moon to be the ruler of the night. The moon continues to be the ruler of the night. Everything in nature continues to obey God’s command. Therefore evil could never have come from the heavenly bodies above because they were not given a mind to choose. The animal kingdom still obeys God’s commands. Whales still swim in the seas, birds continue to fly in the sky’s and land animals still breath air. They all continue to multiply on the earth. They were not given a mind to choose. But man and angels were given the ability to choose. Adam was give a specific command but he chose to disobey that command by eating from a forbidden tree. Angels were given a specific command but they chose to disobey that command by leaving their first estate. Disobedience creates sin; not God
God does not tempt anyone, I agree. God works all things after the council of His will (Ephesians 1:11) however and "all things" include the sinful actions of men. There are many evil acts which God ordained and used to glorify himself, such as the betrayal of Jesus and his sentencing to death by crucifixion. Judas and Pilate acted freely and were 100% responsible for their own sin, yet their actions were also ordained to bring about the salvation of all believers. Josephs brothers acted of their own sinful volition when they sold him into slavery, yet Joseph saw God's hand in their actions when He said " As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[a] should be kept alive, as they are today". Genesis 50:20. Just because God gave commands does not mean that someone born in sin has the power to obey his commands. In fact Jesus said that anyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. Nobody has "free will". This is why Jesus said " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". John 6:44. If we had complete freedom to choose this verse would not be true. Nobody can come to Jesus, unless drawn by the Father.
Phil Blagden The Lord creates free will. Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they were NOT WILLING to come to Him even though it was His will. It was God’s will that they gather under Him like a hen gathers her chicks under her. But Israel rejected Him. It was God’s will that Israel should be the envy of the world but instead they became a rebellious nation rejecting God’s will. It was God’s will that Adam should obey His command and not eat from the tree. But Adam CHOSE to disobey. All throughout the Bible you see free will at work in mankind. Free will, which God ordained. The first man Adam was not corrupt. He was not a sinner. He was perfect and yet he CHOSE to listen to his wife instead of obeying his Father. He broke God’s command even though he was not a sinner. That was the risk God was willing to take when He decided to create creatures with the ability to choose. He was not willing to create preprogrammed children. He wanted them to love and obey Him willingly. Knowing that free will would create anomalies within His creation, the Lord prepared to deal with them. And in His infinite wisdom, He actually use these anomalies for His glory. The Lord can never be out done by anything. Not even evil (the anomaly of which I speak of) can be seen as being greater than God. Therefore the Lord used evil for His glory. The Lord is in control of everything. The Lord did not actually create a thing called “steam”. What He created was heat and cold. When these two meet they create steam. The Lord did not create evil. But He created free will and laws to govern free will. But when free will breaks God’s laws that creates evil or sin. The Bible clearly says, Where there is no law, there is no transgression. And Laws must be given because it reveals God’s authority over mankind. God Gave everything to Adam. Yet Adam had to know that God was above him. And the only way to express authority over someone else is when you give a command or a law.
Here's some Scripture: 2 Timothy 2:25: Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. *Takeaways* 1. God is the one who grants unbelievers (you and me and everyone else in the world) repentance 2. Once the repentance is granted, the unbeliever comes to their senses and escapes the trap of the devil 3. What is the trap of the devil? The trap to do his will, meaning, everyone who is an unbeliever *isn't* acting out on their free will, they are doing the devil's will and they need God to grant them repentance in order to escape the trap. Notice what this verse (and many more like it) isn't saying. It's *not* saying that an unbeliever comes to their senses first and then God grants them repentance, it says the exact opposite so that any time someone comes to their senses it's because God intervened first, not because they used their nonexistent free will to come to their senses. That's what Dr. Brown and Flowers are saying, and unfortunately they are wrong on this issue. I have great respect for Dr. Brown but he's wrong here. Contrary to what you've been taught, your ability to choose *isn't* free. It is captive to sin, to the flesh, and to the devil. God is the one who has to intervene to save anyone, no one is capable of unhooking them from the traps of this world *by themselves* Ephesians 2:8: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.
@@TheRgordon16 Asa, you seem to misunderstand what sovereignty is. Sovereignty does not mean that God creates the universe and then leaves it to follow whatever chaotic course happens. He is active in everything, although he is not the author of sin and does not tempt anyone. He does control the sinful actions of men and chooses at times to allow them to follow their evil designs and at other times he prevents them. He prevented Abimelech from sleeping with Sarah in Genesis 20. Regarding the law, Paul also wrote in Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them". This clearly teaches that those who don't have God's law will still be judged and pay the penalty for sin because God has written the essence of the law into their consciences so that they already know that they are doing wrong in their hearts. He goes on in chapter 3 to state that all are guilty before God. Nobody is excused from being judged for their sins and salvation is only found through believing in Jesus Christ. Jesus was the lamb slain "before the foundation of the world". God decreed that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil be placed in the garden. He allowed the serpent to enter to tempt Eve which led to Adam sinning. He knew with certainty this would be the outcome, although man was indeed created without sin. He knew the effects of the fall, even that most would not repent of their rebellion and would suffer His just and eternal punishment. His decision to go ahead sealed their fate, even if you approach this using your mistaken and unbiblical assumption of free will after the fall. (Adam and Eve and Jesus were the only ones with free will, the rest of us are enslaved by our own wicked intentions). God knew the outcome from the start, that most people would go to Hell, and He created anyway. He was willing to show both the depths of his grace and the severity of His wrath from the start. Both these things bring Him glory.
@@choicemeatrandy6572 Nonsense. When I was 8 years old I can remember learning about God. I had no animosity or hatred towards Him. I was simply ignorant about Him. But I can remember both fearing Him and loving Him at the same time once I learned about His awesome power and His love for us. As a child I loved God. Even though I didn't know Him or hear the true Gospel until I was 16, yet in my heart, I respected God. And when I finally did hear the true message of the Gospel, my heart was receptive like the good soil, Jesus spoke of. What you are saying contradicts what Jesus taught concerning the human heart. There is GOOD soil in which God's word falls and produces good fruit. Then there is stoney soil where the word of God does not prosper. The Lord can do whatever He chooses to do. If He wants to limit Himself by clothing Himself in human flesh and experience being tired, hungry, thirsty and rely on His Holy Spirit just like mortal humans do, then, He can. If He wants to create a world where people have the freedom to choose between light and darkness, he can. Contrary to what you have been taught, people are going to hell because they choose to go there, not because God ordained them to go there. He has made a way of escape and it is up to the individual to accept it. Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and evil. Man has the ability to do both good and evil. But God is perfect and holy, there is no evil in Him. The man was created in the image and likeness of God, therefore he must be perfect and holy just like his Creator. Since man is unable to make himself perfect and holy, The Lord Himself has provided the way through God the Word. God's sovereignty is not limited to your narrow imaginations. Allowing His creation to do what they want still falls under His sovereignty. And if you had paid attention to what I wrote I said The Lord can step in at times and use evil behavior to glorify His name. I wrote that His wisdom is so superior that He can even use what He hates to fulfill His purpose.
I am, @@justinwilson3694, but I seriously doubt your salvation since you worship a god who burns babies alive for eternity just so he can get some glory. News flash: that god you & John [Calvin] worship cannot be located in the Bible. #ServeJesusNotJohncalvin
Justin Wilson So you’re saying that man didn’t have a choice to get drunk or to stay sober? He was just drunk from the beginning of time? This analogy doesn’t help the Calvinist or Arminian view. This is just a bad analogy altogether.
@@adamjones6473 was man of flesh or spirit when first made? Did Jesus say a person must be born of the Spirit? That is of flesh is flesh and that is of Spirit is spirit. Does the bible say the first man was of flesh.
I agree that man has free will but I think the analogy of tumor was poor I still think the Judge would be just condemning to person and to let the person go is to hate the victims of his crime regardless of his condition. We can pity the man but we ought to pity the violated more and to fear God most and we are instructed in scripture not to let the guilt go free.
"God is not glorified at the expense of his creation, but at the expense of Himself for the sake of His creation" Leighton Flowers.That is the most profound statement in the entire debate!Thank you Jesus!Hallelujah!
@Which given Leightons whole theological system, means that man is the most important thing
@@andrewdavidson8167 or important enough
@@andrewdavidson8167
John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
St. John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
It is not Leighton's system it is God's system.
Yeah, Thank God, man is the most important to God because He loves mankind so much that He gave his only son.
You'd better believe what God says and not the faulty Calvinistic system.
100% agree
Thanks for commenting.
We’ll said
@@krisztianpatay9812AMEN!
Two Christian teachers who do a great job correcting the error of Calvanism. Respect and thanks to both, good to see them together.
Dr Brown's personal testimony is what really stood out for me.The fact that when he adopted Calvinism, it was not a position he arrived at prayerfully, but through reading theology books and erroneous intellectualizing of the word of God.I think the same is probably true about most other people who become Calvinists.Sadly.
wish i could give you 100 thumbs up for this
Yes, bank on. Another 100 thumbs up from me.
@Elroy
So what do you do about all the Calvinists who turned to Calvinism after realizing Arminianism was what you described Calvinism is? Just over intellectualism but not biblical reading?
@@andrewdavidson8167
Both Calvinism and Arminianism is erroneous and unbiblical. The traditionalist view is the one that knows closely adheres to the clear teaching of scripture. Which I don't even like to call it a view at all just read the Bible, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Once you're saved sanctification begins till you die or are raptured then glorification lasts forever. Remember that scripture where Jesus said unless you come to me as a little child you have no part of me?
All these systems are from the minds of sinful men. We all need the mind of Christ not the mind of Calvin or Arminus!
@Jdude
I know it’s been a couple of weeks since this reply but I read it again and I just have to laugh at it
I would encourage you to watch the debate between James White and the poster boy of traditionalism, Leighton Flowers, on the passage of Romans 9, which one was more sound in his exegesis? Which one was able to start with chapter 8 and give the broader context and walk through chapter 9? Which one made it clear that their method of interpretation was the same on this issue with that passage as with other issues and other passages? Like the Trinity? Leighton said no his method was not the same from doctrine to doctrine which means there is a huge inconsistency on his part
I agree with that last paragraph you wrote, but do you believe that figures in the past that are looked up to as influential figures have the mind of Christ as well? Or are you one of the guys who just says everyone in academia is wrong? If so then stop it
Excellent. This was a much-needed exposition. Absolutely brilliant.
What a wonderful God we serve. He delights in giving mercy. I can't help but worship him.
Blessings to you.
Very good stuff here! Former calvinist for 10 years praise the Lord but I'm not there anymore!
Praise the Lord you believe God punishes two people for the one persons sins? That you believe Christ’ atonement is only sufficient if the sinner makes it to be? Okay. You’re further from the truth than you imagined my friend. Repent.
What a team! These two men did awesome and are awesomely appreciated. I share their same view point on most points of God's word. So refreshing to hear intelligent men unravel this issue with which many are confused.
Totally agree! Some of the most intelligent Scholars out there now in my opinion.
I have to say that the most powerful refutations of Calvinism, was the direct reading of Scripture from the Bible.
@Elroy
That’s interesting because a good amount of their references just pass by in the night and don’t fully address all of scripture
I am sure other who holds different interpretations feel the same way.
@@andrewdavidson8167 And I can say the same about Calvinists with their proof-texts. Jehovah witnesses do the same.
@@pinknoise365 yep. My opinion is this : Maybe we’re ALL WRONG!!! Lol
@nicholas carter
You can say that about anyone. That’s why we need to put a bigger emphasis on biblical theology vs systematic theology. That by the way is why I’m a Calvinist.
3:00 Like Dr. Brown says, the Bible conpare salvation is compared to a gift. No one is patted on the back for receiving a gift, but practically and legally speaking, you must accept a gift. It's a passive act but if you reject the gift, you either have a good reason or are a fool worthy of condemnation.
So much truth and light in these teachings. I have to say that it is a breath of fresh air. Thank you so much!
Loved Leighton's teaching on hardening of heart. That was a very clear and helpful explanation, which made a lot of sense. I am a big admirer of Dr Brown, agree with him on lots of issues, but also impressed by Leighton Flowers here.
When persecution hits America, and our bubble of comfort is popped this topic won't be in front line....
Preach Christ and be wholly devoted to Him and let God be God..
Hummer that isnt happening but it matters as it changes how god is understood in terms of his character. That matters greatly
Jordan Thornburg believe the True covenant that God made with the house of israel and all people that fear the Lord. Acts 2:38
WHEN? Lets just live for Him now.. the moment we were given :)
Exactly bro, Hummer!
Paul was greatly persecuted, He preached Christ and was wholly devoted to Him. He let God be God. And still he dealt frequently with these truths. So I suspect your wrong.
Well said Dr Brown, the reformation didn't get everything right, it pointed us back to scripture.
Reformation: let the Bible speak itself.
Arminian: let your emotion speak itself.
Gregory Lum prove all things. There is only one God. It’s best to keep greek philosophy out of the bible. We who say there is no trinity do not deny the Father, the son, and the holy ghost. We believe they are one and the same. The son is God in a human existence. The Holy Ghost is God in action if you will. It says in Genesis 1 “the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters”. We don’t believe in a multi person God. We believe He is only one. We believe His name is JESUS. Everything we think we know must be tested with the Holy Scriptures.
@@michelhaineault6654
That the Trinity is false
Really ?👈🏾 👉🏾 Can you back it up with scriptures ?
@@carlopara4982 A couple points: 1) they're not "Arminians." 2) They continually pointed to the Scriptures AND THEIR CONTEXTS to make their points in this discussion.
@@carlopara4982 Your comment is incompetent. There is only God's breathed words in the Greek New Testament mss, nothing about Calvin or Arminius. Calvinism and those following Arminius are not going to find their doctrines in God's breathed words. Calvinism, it's 9-not 5- points are easily refuted from Genesis to Revelation, beginning with their definition of Sovereign and Miticulous Determinism. Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 are God saying that the Jews did what NEVER entered His mind!
I John 3:14 says, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death."
This was the piece that remained so far from me when I was learning r scriptures under this Calvinist doctrine. Now that I've been released from it and understand the scriptures more clearly, the Lord is answering my years-old prayers that He give me love for brethren. I was concerned for a long while that although I was learning so much doctrine, my love for others was not increasing.
But I think that goes back to the fact that I had a distorted view of God, and that view was not of a loving Father, but actually a cruel and mercurial one who did not take us into account at all. When I go back into the scriptures now, I see that yes, He is holy and He is firm in His judgment, and what He says goes, but the whole story from beginning to end shows His great love for us, and His great desire to be reconciled to each and every one of us. Each one of us is offered "a way to escape."
I have had to repent of the caricature that I created and presented to the world of my God's unexplicably loving character. I pray that more people's eyes are opened to who our God really is, and how wonderful and patient and gracious He is towards each and every one of us. 🙏🏼
Extremely informative! This is Almighty Gods’ Total Truth! ❤
I like how Dr. Flowers was all apologetic when an audience member got offended, but Dr. Brown was blunt and unapologetic in his response. I liked Dr. Brown's response.
Brown isn’t Christian. Be consistent with scripture man. Look what he holds to and preaches elsewhere. Delusional folk follow this man.
Wow! that was helpful. Thanks to God, and thanks to the people who participated in this and making it happen.
1 Peter 3:15 (KJV) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:...and they do...God's be the Glory...These men are blessed...❤
I sense a Radio Free Geneva coming on...
Standing on my hands.....
The Lord Is My Shepherd yep! Dr. James White I can hear mighty fortress is our God!
Here's James White annoyed by Leighton Flower's metaphors...
ua-cam.com/video/wcQHdjNvUe4/v-deo.html
([KSC] MHB - Captain Kirk annoyed by McCoy's metaphors!)
... or a Dividing Line. Or, both!
I can picture Dr. White hitting the pause button and starting with "In what sense..."
I am a Calvinist, but I appreciate both of these brothers. I may not agree with their soteriology, but I appreciate the opportunity to hear them express their views. I believe that listening to those who disagree with you will either strengthen your understanding of your own view or change it to a more biblical perspective. I hope we all stay out of the echo chamber and listen to what others have to say.
Calvin’s god comes across to me as cruel and arbitrary. This is not merciful and kind like my Heavenly Father. My God is love and loved me even when I was His enemy. Excellent Dr. Brown. Bless your heart.
Powerful message…extremely formative! ❤
Excellent Q&A answers.
Thanks for uploading. As a Lutheran inquirer of Eastern Orthodoxy, there is so much I can agree with in your statements.
This is wonderful! It has helped me out a lot.
Respect for both of these brothers. Good to see them working together.
Hey Jew and Greek, nice to see you comment on a video. wondering when you're going to make another video on your channel? God bless you!
@@josephzimba681 Soon, and thanks.
This is one of the few times I didn't see you defending a false prophet
I like the fact they address the view Calvinists have that those of us who reject Calvinism put humans on a "pedestal" regarding salvation. They talk about how in actuality, believing that we carry all the blame when we reject God puts MORE responsibility on us regarding our depravity than believing we aren't in any way capable of accepting God.
Believing is not man centered.
Believing is God’s action requirement .
As calvinists look out for God’s well-being, they miss the entire point of what He has done and the only thing he requires.
Submission…
admitting, we can do nothing.
As an elect person or at least believing they may be elect, they could realistically believe they are better than they are.
As non-Calvinist’s we believe true Christianity is the antithesis of man centered, we only come to God when we finally realize we can do nothing.
We Believe He can save us,
that’s it and that’s the only thing our sovereign God requires.
If all these bad doctrines trace back to Augustine I really don’t know why we aren’t calling him a false teacher at this point?
Thank you both! This helped me a lot God bless you!
Two of my favorite men.
I just read Romans 11. Yes, it for sure refutes Calvinism.
I know that before I was born of the Spirit I didn't have a desire for the things of God until I hit my 17th birthday. For almost a year I was intensely seeking for some thing. I wanted to know who the true God was. I was discouraged with my early religious upbringing in the Catholic faith so that was out. I began to study ancient Greek philosophers and other texts like the analects of Confucius and other writings. Something happened to me when I was reading through some of the works of the Stoic philosopher Markus Aurelius who was also a Roman Emperor. He made this statement, "You must at last perceive who your God is." That was the way this English translation translated it using a capital G in the word God. It was like the words popped out of the page at me. I was stunned. I thought about it a long time and realized I didn't know who God was. Was He Allah, or what Buddha taught about reality or any number of concepts dealing with ultimate reality? I didn't really know, but I wanted to know. This was back in the late 1960s when many of us were influenced by Eastern religious philosophy and thought. There was some thing called finding yourself. I thought that was what I needed. I did have that experience but was disappointed because I realized how sinful I was. I thought it would something wonderful but knew than that I wasn't. After these happenings I had a Black brother witness to me on the back of a Greyhound Bus about being born of the Spirit. I knew intuitively that what he was saying was what I needed. I already had the awareness that I was sinful and his witness of the gospel showed me that Jesus provided salvation already for me. I become a new creature in Christ. I was saved and born anew March 12, 1968 in Detroit. If it wasn't for the ministry of the Holy Spirit intervening I could have been lead astray into Eastern thought or deception. What happened to me was like what we read about in John 6: 44 that we can't even come to God unless He draws us. I was being drawn that whole year until I heard the gospel and quickly responded when I was told what to believe and receive. Thank God, though I was dead in my sins He drew me out of that horrible pit and put a new song in my heart and saved me to the uttermost.
Dr. Brown says that he disagrees with the doctrine "because constantly in the Bible we are told to choose, choose choose ,choose." I agree! Calvinist believe that man does have to choose God....but that is done after they have been given a new nature, a nature that wants to choose God and is able to do so. Not a sin nature that is a slave to sin, corrupt and spiritually dead. And so they misrepresent when they say that Calvinism teaches that man doesn't choose God.
Apologia5 Well, Calvinism starts with the fact that man has compatibilistic freedom. Man makes choices according to his nature, but that nature is decreed by God and the man cannot do otherwise. That’s no different than animal instinct. Calvinists have a habit of leaving out that important fatalistic bit that ultimate puts everything back onto God and removes man’s responsibility, no matter how the Calvinist tries to put makeup on it.
@@BK-yz7px "and removes man’s responsibility"
Actually that's what Arminians misrepresent the reformed position as saying. No Calvinist ever removes man's responsibility. Because of God's Sovereignty, man's responsibility matters even more. There's no need for "make-up" cause that's just what the Bible says.
Randy Couture The you might want to take a look at the compatibilism Calvinists teach. It ultimately leads to fatalistic beliefs. There’s no way around it, no matter how Calvinists try to paint it. The moment you believe a person can actually do other than what they are doing, you believe in some level of libertarian freedom. Both compatibilism and hard determinism deny this. Calvinists love to paint this picture as though man is libertarianly making the choice to reject God, and then God has to come in and save some. But that’s not Calvinism at all. In compatibilism, man makes choices according to his nature and that nature is determined and decreed by God. And the big kicker - NO ONE can do other than what they are doing. No matter how you slice it, it leads to fatalism and is no different than animal instinct.
@@BK-yz7px " Calvinists love to paint this picture as though man is libertarianly making the choice to reject God"
No no nope, this is you kicking down and burning up a strawman. Never met a calvinist who ever said humans have a libertarian free will. You don't have a free will. Your will is not free. Your will is captive to sin and the devil. That's what Jesus said and that's what the apostles wrote down. And because your will is captive to these entities, choices you make are always inclining themselves to adhere to their will and that's why everyone needs rescuing. No one rescues themselves, and in fact *no one wants* to be rescued, before anyone believes they're rolling around in the mud enjoying their filth oblivious of the ill effects around them.
John 8:34....Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin
2 Timothy 2:25-26...The minds of unbelievers have been taken captive to do the devil's will
Romans 7 is an entire lament by Paul about how he does things he doesn't want to do because in verse 18 he recognizes that nothing good dwells in his sinful nature.
If you want to talk about foreign beliefs being imported into the Bible then you have to go no further than pelagianism and arminianism. You believe you have good that dwells in your sinful nature and that your will is totally free to choose God without Him first intervening. That's not a Biblical concept. In every single story of redemption in the Bible, every single one, God is the one who acts first. Every time. Arminians and pelagians say in the issue of salvation that man acts first and then God second. Again, that's not Biblical.
God is the one who intervenes and rescues unbelievers from their filth, and He gets 100% of the Glory, not 99.9%, but 100%. The big disconnect is you want to say you contributed to your salvation.
@B K
Are you an incompatibilist?
Calvinist: Arminians never engage in deep exegesis or respond to our arguments.
Arminian: Writes 500 page book engaging in verse by verse exegesis and lengthy responses to Calvinistic arguments.
Calvinist: You're just saying that because you want to take credit for your own salvation. Arminians never engage in deep exegesis or respond to our arguments.
Lol I think the fact that Calvinists exist, is the best evidence for Calvinism. There is no way someone could believe it unless God was forcing them too 😂
Seems you need to check James White debate Dr Brown
"God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so." A.W. Tozer
When Dr. Brown read that quote, I was like, "Wow..." Love it!
The theological pride Dr. Brown mentioned was very interesting.
Well, Calvinism is a doctrine of demons, and there is a religious pride demon working in their false religion as a counterfeit holy spirit. Te false God of Calvinism is who the devil would be if he were God not who God actually is. I wonder if the demon who receives this reverence is named "Sovereign" or "Sovereignty" because this false church invokes this word in such a way--much more so than to Jesus Christ.
🎸🎵A mighty fortress is our God🎵😁
Tim Bushong is that you? ;)
Dmeist I can already hear it too
I thought I was the only one hearing it! 😂
For some Reas I wasn't notified about this. Definitely watching.
Repent and believe the Gospel!!...why do we complicate that?
Agreed!
The same reason man simplifies the Gospel. We are rebel sinners in need of a perfect savior, Christ.
Carlos Padron we don’t complicate it. Both sides agree on that, but we disagree on the TRUE nature of Gods plan & divine will.
Did you miss all the questions?
Why, Carlos? Because Calvinism seeks to make things more difficult for people.
Referencing Matthew 7:17-18 where Jesus says that, "a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor an a bad tree produce good fruit", the questioner asked, "doesn't this imply that a bad tree cannot make good choices/decisions?". (14:20)
Dr. Brown rightly stated that the context is that of discerning false prophets, not whether someone was able to make a decision for the LORD ... but it would be helpful to just look at the other question that would arise from that type of logic: "Does this somehow imply that a good tree cannot make a bad choice/decision?" Of course, *no one* would say that, and therefore it is completely inconsistent for a Calvinist to attempt to go there with that passage.
What a great resource to better understand the other side :)
“Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
Acts 13:48 NKJV
This is a tough one to refute…
Ironically Dr.Brown and Dr.Flowers also disagree with eachother
That's because Leighton is really an open theist.
@@mmttomb3 too bad thats not true.
@@mmttomb3 proof or just your opinion?
Just like Calvinists also do not agree with each other about everything...
@@mmttomb3 its because brown is a hyper charismatic and flowers is southern baptist you liar
Neither Flowers or Brown addressed the question about Ephesians 2:2-3. Why ? Because their bias prevents it.
Those who are by nature children of wrath are also children of disobedience. Hence the children of wrath will not obey the gospel and believe unless they are quickened first. The Salvation of a child of wrath is accomplished by a creative work of God which is certain to come to pass.
the verses are mentioned at 34:10
Greg Lindstrom
They did not address the text.
The Salvation of a child of wrath is accomplished by a creative work of God which is certain to come to pass. I imagine the following to be that creative work! Also in Ephesians. We couldn't see the extent of "it is finished" the earth quaked and the rock split at the foot of the Cross, Christs blood was released by the Roman soldier who pierced his side. While Six hundred years earlier The Ark of the Covenant was moved.. Solomon prepared for its hiding and Jeremiah moved it precisely under the cross yet future! GOLGOTHA.
THE WITNESS OF THE BLOOD IN THE STARS.. REVELATION 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The Rabbi's keep the tablets of stone and the blood (testimony) found on the mercy seat.
I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourn for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
ENMITY is what exists now the solution is in the Fathers witness!
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believe on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believe not God hath made him a liar; because he believe not the record that God gave of his Son.
For it is by His grace we are rescued, through faith; and this is not of yourselves, but it is the gift of Elohim. (when opened). 9. Not of works, or else anyone glory (in themselves). 10. For we are His creation who are created in Y'shua the Mashiyach for good works which Elohim has before prepared for us to walk in. 11. Wherefore be mindful that you formerly were carnal Gentiles; and you were called the uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision of which is the work of the hands in the flesh. 12. And you were, at that time, without the Mashiyach; and were aliens from the Devarim of Israel; and strangers to the covenant of the promise; and were without hope and without Elohim in the world. 13. But now, by Y'shua the Mashiyach, you who before were afar off, have been brought near by the Blood of the Mashiyach. 14. He is Himself our peace, who has
made the two (become) ONE
If faith is not a gift from God (his power), then by necessity it is a work (Gk. "ergon"=energy/power i.e., my own mind conjuring up "faith"). Both Arminians and Calvinists affirm "faith alone," therefore Arminians contradict themselves. This is proven by the simple question: "Why does one person repent and receive Christ, while another rejects him based on the same information?" The debate ends with the 72:1 verses in favor of Calvinism in the Bible, but the "nuclear option" for the Calvinist is the following: "This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" Rom. 9:8-21
Amen. We are saved BY grace, through faith. God's grace is what effectively brings salvation. Grace is first and faith is the natural response of sinners made alive by the call of God. We could no more refuse our saviour than Lazarus could resist Jesus command to rise from the dead.
Isaiah 53:5 is one of my favorite verses. It's one of my tattoos.
I would modify the analogy... there is no rope that we take, there is a will that he help us and instead of throwing a rope, he reaches down and grabs men with his own hands who will respond in faith to his drawing.
Flowers asked in 1:05:57 why Paul would try to persuade someone about Jesus if he believed some people are predestined to accept Christ and others not. Does he really think that hasn't been answered yet?
I suspect his intention is not to present and respond to the best reformed theologians have offered over the years, but to protect against the growth of reformed theology. It's why formal moderated debates are ao valuable. You have the two sides interacting, which informs the audience.
Yes because it has not been answered
brother on the left has compiled great questions!
I was thinking exactly that. Those questions were spot on.
Two of my favorites
"John The Immerser". Love it! Read the Greek for what it means!
John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
A great combination.
Comments already posted for a 3 hour 15 minute clip that has been out just over 30 minutes.
Jamie Preece cause no one can comment before watching it completely. Excellent point!
They commented before the video's end because they were foreordained to. That or they just couldn't help themselves. :^) - J @@michaelborg5798
I personally don’t comment when watching the lord of the ring extended version unless feeling led by the Holy Spirit.
This has actually been available for a couple months on the Condemned To Salvation Conference page. It’s just that Dr. Brown just got permission to post this on his own page.
B K that’s fine but not everyone, including myself, knew of the original web page.
In Calvinism, God doesnt throw you a rope, He gets into the pit grabs you and pulls you out.
But He left the four people drowning in the pit with you, and it could have been any one of you that He arbitrarily chose to rescue. Whew! Close one!
@@duskacornwell5932 It might only look arbitrary to us, but we dont know if he chose us due to some reason or not. We will never have access to his infinite wisdom. Also, important thing to note, the other four people DID NOT WANT to get out of the pit. They loved it there.
Sorry.. there is only one.. John 3 16 Rom 10- 9-10. Nothing of man is in that. its not ANY "ISM"
@@maxzeblade Jesus used allegories too. And the debate is between calvinism and arminianism. We are just using words to communicate, dont think too much into it. This rule that anything ISM is of man- thats extrabiblical and of man too.
@@maxzeblade God does not draw all to himself. This was the context of John 6:44 where Jesus was trying to explain why some just wouldnt believe him.
Calvinism doesnt negate human choice, it ADDS to it. It agrees that you have to choose God, but it also says God is mysteriously in control of that choice too without affecting your free will. Read philipians 2:13. Arminianism, which is the popular held Christian view of salvation, believes only in human choice. It does not take into account verses like philip 2:13, acts 13:48, acts 16:14, romans 8:29,30 etc
I don't know , it seemed like the last speaker was using John 3:16 incorrectly? Isn't it the offer of grace to everyone? The gift of salvation that needs to be answered by our faith in the Christ. He made it sound like John 3:16 and similar N.T. verses are the end instead of the beginning to ones faith journey. It made Armainianism look kinda shallow. John chapter 3 and 6 go much deeper than that. I admit Calvinism is a hard lesson to learn, and it comes with the pain realizing that people around us aren't saved but I need the truth in this sea of lies that is the natural world. The gift of the cross and hearing the word spread by believers is the bridge that Armainians are trying to cross.
I loved this..Praise GOD... thanks Dr Brown... and Dr Flowers. Doctrines of man. Theres this cross.. Did God send His only son? Do you believe He is who He said He was? You believe or you don't :) So ask HIM..if He is who He said He was.. ask from your heart and HE WILL answer! What else is there? Ask the Father for the Holy Spirit Then.. let HIM lead..
Faith " God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith"
That’s a good point. Are we born to hate God first then he changes us for his glory and ability to save us. Or can we be raised to love God since birth and continue that. But there will always be some to resent their parents. It’s been going on forever.
Psalms 58:3 psalms 51:6 will asnswer the born part
thanks a lot!
I am so glad that Dr. Brown corrected flowers on the hardened state of humanity, that we are in fact haters of God by nature and birth. I have way more respect for Dr. brown’s theology.
Matt. 7:15f. is not a text about how you can tell believers from unbelievers, at least according to Jesus. He says He's talking about "false prophets", not how to tell who is saved and who is not.
Assumptions kill good Bible study.
Absolutely Wonderful and brilliant
Great video!
I think Dr. Brown does a pretty poor job with his life boat illustration. The difference between monergism and synergism has to do with cooperation. The synergist believes that man must cooperate with God, in order to be saved. Grabbing hold of a life boat is cooperation. When you cooperate with someone, you are by definition contributing to something. The person who grabs hold of the lifeboat is contributing to their salvation.
So grabbing on to the life preserver when your drowning would be a work? Simply believing is now considered a work? Your doing a work to contribute to your salvation?
@Loves2HugItOut
Remember you also must hold on to the life preserver all you life. Then you picked up....finally. 😅
That is not blessed assurance. That is eternal insecurity. Think about the implications of libertarian free will. Do we still keep it in Heaven?
Idk about Dr. Flowers' views, but I know Dr. Brown is a Charismatic Christian. I don't agree with that branch of Christianity, but that doesn't mean I reject all views he has. The same goes for Calvinist pastors; I don't agree with them regarding that specific belief, but I can find sermons they give on other topics very enlightening.
Remember the Roman's 9 debate L.F. had with James White....yikes!
All and all, I love these discussions as we wrestle through the deep things of God and His Word....although I disagree with these fine gentlemen.
TheGanner Yikes was right. James White refused to deal with the points of contention and reneged on his pre-debate agreement. Flowers has shown proof of the pre-debate exchange, and White fully approved of Flowers’ approach to the text. Yet the man turns around and cries like a baby as if he had no clue Flowers was trying to specifically key in on the points of contention between the Calvinist and non-Calvinist interpretations of Romans 9 and why they differ.
@@BK-yz7px the debate speaks for itself.
TheGanner It’s easy to say that when you either are ignorant of James White’s actions or choose to ignore his tactics. The guy completely reneged in his pre-debate agreement. He’s the one who actually derailed the debate because he was NOT dealing with the points of contention. That was the whole purpose. It was never to just read Romans 9. All of the Christians before Augustine and EVERY other Christian group outside of Calvinism DO NOT interpret Romans 9 like a Calvinist. There’s a reason for that, and that needs to be shown. If James White was debating the Trinity against a Oneness or Unitarian person, imagine how James White would feel if that Oneness or Unitarian person forces White to stay on one single text without the ability to bring in other texts to explain the overall picture of God’s nature. White would be crying foul at that. Romans 9 has a context and is NOT meant to be an isolated passage.
@@BK-yz7px I understand your point regarding the use of the entirety Scripture...and I get what L.F. was trying to accomplish. I respect that. I'm not trying to throw stones at either L.F. or M.B. I appreciate them both for their zeal and knowledge of Scripture...and their Christlike character. But my opinion is clearly different than yours regarding the Romans 9 debate. L.F. was arguing against Calvinism and not so much against Rom 9.
TheGanner You also have to keep in mind that this was Dr. Flowers’ very first major public debate. In any other area of life, rookies get a little bit of grace compared to a seasoned veteran. I’m sure a seasoned debater would have seen what was going on and adjusted accordingly on the spot. But I do think all of the background evidence that I’m aware of suggests that White pulled a fast one on Dr. Flowers, taking advantage of his inexperience to paint him in a bad light to the public. But I think anyone who takes an objective step back can see what Dr. Flowers was getting at. As I mentioned earlier, non-Calvinists don’t view Romans 9 as the Calvinist does and there’s a reason and explanation for that. That’s what I keep saying. What really should have come out of the debate was the actual points of contention, but Dr. White got so caught up in formal debate rules and attacked Dr. Flowers’ hermeneutics (which actually is the majority view of Christendom in the grand scope) that he distracted from the whole point of the debate. It was a debate red herring. Dr. Flowers didn’t do anything that wasn’t agreed upon in pre-debate discussions.
I'm Arminian (Although, I never even knew there was a word for my beliefs until I discovered Calvinism years ago), and I also do *not* agree with once saved, always saved. I know you don't have to be Calvinist to believe in that, but it's also a belief that makes zero sense to me.
I watched this years ago, but I need to watch it again.
Can one be justified and be afterwards unjustified? How does one become unregenerate?
I really don't understand how people go to an university and get a doctorate in theology and still don't get the 101 basics of salvation and the Gospel!. Salvation is a very easy thing to grasp and understand if you let the bible speak for itself.Here is the 101 easy understanding of redemption:
1-Sin was brought to humankind (ALL THE WORLD) by Adam and Eve through disobedience to God.
2-Through one man (Adam) all the world (all his descendants) inherited a sinful nature and therefore all are under condemnation by God.
3-If ALL are under the slavery of sin and condemnation logically ALL must be rescued from slavery and death.
4-Jesus came to undo the works of Satan and free ALL those who were under bondage and slavery by offering ALL those who believe in him eternal life.
5-If ,as Calvinist claim , God gave His only begotten Son as an atonement for sin to a selected predestined group of people only.Then that would imply that the rest of the world (the ones not elected),are created and allowed to exist for the sole purpose of making them suffer an eternal punishment in hell!.
6-If point #5 is correct, are we more merciful and loving than God?.If we imperfect and sinful creatures would not create human clones for the sole purpose of sending them to a place of torment and torture here on earth, how could we envision our creator to do such thing and still worship him.The answer is, NO WE ARE NOT MORE LOVING AND MERCIFUL THAN GOD.Therefore God mercy and love would not ever allow such thing as creating beings for the sole purpose of torment and pain without the choice of avoiding such miserable and sad ending.
GRACE MOST BE OFFERED TO ALL WHO ARE SINNERS because a SINFUL nature is the only condition for which Jesus atonement could be effective and valid!.You must be a SINNER for Jesus atonement to be effective, a sinless, righteous and perfect man (Adam before the fall) does not have the need of an atonement.Only those who are under the curse of sin need to be liberated from that curse.If Calvinists are as much as sinners as the rest of humankind , why then Jesus atonement be effective and valid to Calvinists only while ineffective and invalid to the rest who meet the same SINFUL requirement (as Calvinist do) of Jesus atonement?. That is why the Bible says " God so loved the WORLD (ALL SINNERS) that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever ( ALL OF THOSE THAT ARE IN THE WORLD) believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". The whole world (ALL) have the opportunity and offer of grace/mercy but ONLY those (the sheep that hear Jesus voice and follow him) who make the decision of accepting God grace are to BE SAVED!.
So you see, by one man (Adam) SIN and condemnation/death entered humanity (ALL THE WORLD) and by one man ( Jesus) righteousness and salvation/eternal life was brought as an offering to ALL those who believe in the Son of the ALL MIGHTY GOD OF ISRAEL!.If salvation and eternal life would be for only a selected group of people that would imply that the UNIVERSAL ("GOD SO LOVE THE WORLD") expression of an offering of salvation was a lie. My dear friends GOD CAN NOT LIE OR DECEIVE because God is TRUTHFUL,JUST AND HOLY.
You don't need a doctorate to know God's plan of salvation, God made it very simple and easy for us to understand and follow Jesus road to heaven.Through Him, Jesus is the door and we ALL are offered (grace) the key (faith) to get into heaven!.Go and get the key to unlock the door (Jesus) that will give you eternal life and joy in our God kingdom
Love this.
1:30:40 One of the best examples I've ever heard!
When Paul was speaking early in Romans 1 and beyond,he said ALL men have the Light of conscience and Light of creation within ALL of us.So no man is without any excuse.if that is So,then it says men can seek God despite thier sinful nature.Otherwise God would NOT command men to Repent-it would be senseless if calvanism was correct.
Thank you.
Amen to that Bob.
John. 6:44.... "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, except the father which sent me "DRAGS" them.... " "Oudeis Dynatai" translates to, NO ONE IS ABLE...
@@richardhislop9928 agreed mate
Flowers' analogy at the beginning is an exact depiction of how ALL people are. So for you to believe we can still choose God is foolish.
Armenians try so hard to protect God.
God is completely sovereign over EVERYTHING. If a car accident kills 5 kids, or if a tornado wipes out an entire town, people with your beliefs try to shield God from the blame.
You also try to protect God for not choosing everyone to be saved.
God does not want us to protect Him. He want the world that He is in complete control and NOTHING happens, good or bad, without Him either causing it or allowing it.
Isaiah 45:1-7
*Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed: 2 “I will go before you and level the exalted places, I will break in pieces the doors of bronze and cut through the bars of iron, 3 I will give you the treasures of darkness and the hoards in secret places, that you may know that it is I, the LORD, the God of Israel, who call you by your name. 4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me. 5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, 6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. 7I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things*
If you want to read maybe the greatest evangelist in church history then read the life of George Whitefield. Two volumes by Arnold Dalimore 👍🏼
It is an inspiring read.
I bought them and got caught up with a book from spurgeon “soul winner” also will be starting school soon SRL Reformed Bible study. I strongly believed Gid has blessed the ministry of those that have the Calvinistic view even tho these two gentlemen are still call my brothers in Christ
Notice whenever someone attempts to refute Calvinism it always involves analogies and eisegisis? They're spending more of their time explaining away scriptures rather than subjecting their worldview to them. I respect my fellow brothers in Christ, but I submit my worldview to an all knowing and sovereign God. If I grab the rope I'm still the author of my own salvation, it is still "works."
Calvinists still believe in free will, just no free will involving our justification and rebirth in the body of Christ. So we still retain biblical responsibilities for our actions and are in need of repentance, while simultaneously holding to God's pure sovereignty in its totality.
Dr. Brown is still one of my favorite theologians and I appreciate what he does for our community against the counter missionaries.
It’s hard to see how someone can remain an Arminian when “Calvinist” doctrine is consistently and faithfully presented to them. There are “apparent” contradictions with Arminian theology that just isn’t consistently harmonized when someone walks through the texts honestly. Reading John 6:39, 44 & 10 with the backdrop of 1:13 will help reconcile 12:32 and Jesus high priestly prayer in 17 when Christ says He doesn’t pray on “behalf of the world” aka those who aren’t born of the spirit in contrast to flesh & man’s will (John 1:13).
I was an Arminian for the majority of my walk and when I came to these apparent contradictions the Arminian view continuously jumped around and never consistently harmonized the doctrines of the NT. These are bright men but they simply don’t have a consistent interpretation that is able to harmonize the entire Bible. Specifically they have a different view on the doctrine of God’s Sovereignty that makes them view scripture through the Arminian perspective.
>>it's hard the see how someone can remain an arminian
//Because calvinism is inconsistent, inconsistently
Also only Dr Brown's an arminian
Paul Pacheco what’s the difference between scripture and Calvinism?
Trick question, they’re the same!
@@AtomicSea A wide, a very wide gulf that's keeps getting wider as the Holy Spirit leads me to increase understanding and wisdom. The wonderous miracle of having my eyes opened has exploded the Bible open like a field of beautiful flowers. Praise the Lord!!! It has revealed so much behind the words that a majority of people gloss over because they have no understanding. Along with seeing the amazing revelations comes a more disturbing view, that is seeing the many deceptions of the devil. The cleverness and elaborateness of the devil's traps it makes me shutter and hair stand on end. One of the most elaborate deceptions was via the works of Jean Cauvin in Geneva. What would drive a mere man (a humanist too) to demand he and only he was the voice of God, when he spoke it was God speaking?? Is this the mark of a godly man or a puppet of Satan?
Paul Pacheco
John 3:16.. God so loved the world.
1 Timothy 2:4-6.. a ransom for all.
John 12:32.. will draw all men.
Romans 1:16-26.. manifested knowledge.
Luke 2:9-11.. to all people.
Acts 17:30-31.. all men.
Romans 3:26-30.. faith is not a work.
Romans 3:31.. we establish the law through faith.
Romans 5:18-21.. free gift upon all men.
Matthew 11:28.. come unto me, all.
Acts 17:26-27.. he be not far from every one of us.
Matthew 22:1-14.. the called did not listen.
Matthew 14:31.. doubt is Peters fault.
Matthew 15:28.. great is YOUR faith.
2 Peter 2:1.. Jesus bought the damned too.
Matthew 19:24-26.. who can be saved?.. all things are possible.
Matthew 23:37-39.. Jesus would have gathered Jerusalem.
@@AtomicSea No, not a trick question. Calvinism is a different gospel with a different God that is not of Scripture.
Actually Dr. Brown, reformed folks aren't the one who say that, the Bible says that in Ephesians 1:5-7:
In love He predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he Loves.
1)God predestines people for adoption to sonship through Christ
2)This predestination is in accordance with His will and pleasure and not based on any merit
3)This is all for the praise of His infinite glorious Grace
4)This Grace is freely given to those He loves.
5)There are those who are not given this glorious Grace.
That's what the Bible says.
With that said, I thank God for men like you Dr. Brown.
Randy Couture Interesting that you left out the verses before that which show the context of Ephesians 1 - a corporate statement to those who are already believers in the church at Ephesus. Adoption is a future event, just like in Romans 8. That is what God predestined for believers, along with blessings, promises, and being sanctified. That’s the whole theme of Ephesians 1 in context. And you also left out verse 13 that explicitly says how an individual gets into the corporate chosen body of Christ (“In Him”) when they hear the gospel, believe, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1 does NOT teach that God predestines people to believe or not believe. You Calvinists love to leave out important information that comes before and after your prooftexts.
@@BK-yz7px "to those who are already believers in the church at Ephesus"
Yes Paul is writing to Christians and telling them that the reason they believe is because they were recipients of God's Grace alone before there ever was a planet earth...And that this Grace was freely given and invoked zero works. Again, God's Grace, that does not originate with them or their good works, but originates from God's own purpose and will and this Grace is given freely to those He loves.
Arminianism flips the order of what Paul is saying. Arminianism says:
God's grace is given to those who love God first.
Paul writes that Grace is given freely to those God loves first. And that God's Grace
Before you get to verse 13, you first need to affirm verses 1-12, and even then what you bring up in verse 13 doesn't change the exegesis at all.
Verse 13:
" And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit"
1)Inclusion in Christ on earth happens when one first hears the message of truth. I fully affirm this. The Gospel needs to be preached to everyone.
2)When someone believes, the Holy Spirit acts as a seal that marks them out as authentic believers in the sense that true believers produce the fruit of the Spirit and they are protected and preserved to persevere until the end.
"leave out important information"
I didn't leave out important information out of a sense of malice but in order to highlight some very specific important points that get left out, and more specifically to respond to Dr. Brown's specific comments on the fact that it's the Bible that says God predestines people, not John Calvin.
@@BK-yz7px Regeneration precedes faith. God takes out of hearts of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. Predestination preceeds faith and is the cause of faith, not the other way around. Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Phil Blagden Acts 13:16 tells you who is in the area - Israelites and Gentiles who feared God. The Gentiles who feared God already were immediately ready to receive the gospel once it was revealed to them (same as Cornelius in Acts 10 and Lydia in Acts 16). But these weren’t people out there hating God and were just randomly zapped at that moment to believe. You’re wrong. There are 16 verses in the Bible that clearly put faith before regeneration. Even John says his gospel was written so that whoever reads it could believe in Christ and have eternal life (John 20:31). Again, Calvinists love to rip prooftexts out of context and ignore what comes before and after, and Acts 13:48 is a prime example.
Also, if you believe the Calvinist interpretation of Acts 13:48 is correct then I guess no one else in that town was ever saved after that. “As many as” suggests 100 percent. So if all of the predestined elect people came to faith all at once, what’s the point of even preaching the gospel in that area after that? I don’t think y’all think out these things.
Randy Couture Yes you did leave out important information. Understanding the audience is vital to understanding the context. Calvinists ALWAYS ignore and hide that when dealing with Ephesians 1. And your explanation is filled with Reformed presuppositions. I’ll give you a challenge. Can you find me one early church father prior to Augustine - who actually lived closest to the context of this passage - who interpreted Ephesians 1 in a Calvinistic way? I’d be interested in reading that because I’m yet to find it.
Walk through 1 Corinthians Chapter 1,2, and 3
Spot on
Leighton and Michael my 2 favorite Arminians!
Leighton is a Traditionalist. Not Arminian.
@Atomic Apologetics
It’s hard to tell. He could be an open theist. His apologetic and soft theory of eternity reflect this position.
I swear fewer people understand Arminianism than Calvinism. They aren't opposites! Arminius WAS a 4 point Calvinist! But none of the 5 points are true. And Dr. Brown isn't even an Arminian. He just more closely agrees with the Arminian position on this point of salvation than the completely nonsensical Calvinistic position.
But the thing is--it doesn't really matter because it's like saying God effectually draws us to salvation in two different ways and one sees it as happening all the time--we just don't notice until we need to (Traditionalism), and the other is that God draws when He knows you are ready (Arminianism). Both say you have an obligation to respond and both believe it is God who does the saving.
If a man is starving he would gladly eat road kill!
im no Calvanist at all,yet i trust and believe in Jesus for over 50 years.now how can that be. i NEVER hated God,never,but i was an agnostic in my early years.i dont know of any people that ive been with that said they hated God,an when i was going to college i met many atheists,deists,agnostics .
Boy that is long winded first answer from Dr. Brown. The simple answer is YHWH gives us the authority and power to decide whether we accept God's Judgement of ourselves and whether we want to Repent and Turn to God and accept His Work of dealing with our sin and His Gift to empower us to overcome our narcissistic nature.
Not to be obtuse, but where did you get this idea that God gives this "authority and power to accept his judgement" from the Scriptures? Could you provide something besides your assertion to back that up? And not to prooftext, but what about Ephesians 2:8-10? I believe if you read Ephesians 1-2:10 you will see that it directly refutes this assertion you have made. I know I'm not going to convince anyone through a youtube comment, but I would seriously challenge you to search the Scriptures and pay attention to whose perogatives are operating in salvation? Is it almighty man? Or is it a sovereign God who saves to the praise of his glorious grace? And don't start with strawmen claiming Calvinism creates robots or whatever. A sovereign God and his will are compatible with limited creatures acting as they desire. Analogies always break down, but here's one I think helps. In 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, was Capt. Nemo ramming and destroying ships willingly? Yes, he was. Ah, but Jules Verne wrote the story. When we write like this, we are emulating our Father in heaven because as we all know, he is the author of all creation. He is separate from the creation as to his nature, and when we write, so are we. The character Verne created had his own will, his own desires, yet he "...did whatever your hand predestined to occur." (The 'your' being Verne here, though the scripture parallels this nicely. Acts 4:27-28) This is the nature of the relationship. Nemo is still responsible for his murder despite his role in the author's plan. I hope this helped someone at least better understand compatablism. If you believe in the autonomous free will of man (that is, not dependent on God in any way) you cannot account for God's future knowledge, because if he knows what you are going to do, and it can't change (as God's knowledge is perfect) then you're in the same boat us Reformed folks are. If he knows your action, yet you can change it (thus violating his perfect knowledge), then you've got the wrong God. In any case, thanks for reading, God bless.
Would be interested to know the context of this. Is it Q and A at the end of another event? What event is going on?
King David psalm 14 and Paul in Romans 3
No One Seeks God.
AJ21969 Acts 17 = God appointed habitations and times so that men would seek Him and perhaps grope for Him and find Him since he’s not far from us.
Romans 3 is not addressing total inability
Just sayin'. Neither is David in the pslams
the watchman Is humble good?
@@AJ21969 i should think
Amen!
I love how they're talking about the importance of CONTEXT in this video. A verse by itself can appear on the surface to support Calvinism, but the verses before and after show that what's being talked about does NOT support Calvinism at all.
Let us come reason
Amen!
Dead men don’t grab!
You had no say in your physical birth, same goes with your spiritual birth it was supernatural as Jesus said in John 3, you must be born again or born from above. So God alone decides who will be saved, people don't like that, but yet trust in God to save sinners when apparently it's up to man to choose God for salvation. You have a huge problem when you reject God's sovereignty, man has control now, not God. And you may think what's the problem with that? It means man can thwart God's plans, which is not possible Job 42:2.
Biblical Theology saying I have no say in my spiritual birth is like saying my mom had all boys so I’ll have all boys. You can’t connect two different ideas just because they’re comparable in wording.
Rejecting Calvinism and determinism doesn’t mean you reject God’s sovereignty. God sovereignly decided to allow us to choose him and be saved, or reject him and be lost.
You make it so difficult .....look at the theif on the cross ....you will be with me in paradise ....my son wanted to part ways bec of dumb calvinisn. I raised him in the Lord .. now he acts like he is above ...toooo awful. You need compassion ...tell others about Jesus ...quit bringing them to your religion ...bring them to JESUS ...I BRING THE GOSPEL. LETS TALK ABOUT JESUS
*Paul Washer voice* But that's not what the verse says, is it? (Eph. 2:1)
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved;) (Ephesians 2:5, KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:6, KJV) The scripture is about what happened when God raised Jesus from the dead. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, (Ephesians 1:20, KJV)
Open theism is almost never understood correctly by those who reject it. I don't know a single open theist that says that God can't know something without causing it (2:39:00) . What we do say is that if everything you ever do is foreknown with absolute certainty then you are not free. Also open theists do not deny God's omniscience. God knows all that is true and real, but unmade free decisions do not exist to be known until they are made.
A testimony of asking Jesus into your heart is not a boasting. It's turning your life over to him. Calvanists in my opinion are projecting their narcissistic views of God and their own saving upon anyone who disagrees with them and those that scholars that have taught them this false doctrine. They're belief system is completely pointless.
God does whatever He pleases in heaven and on earth.
Psa 135:6; Dan 4:34-35; Psa 33;6,9-11; since this is true, according to both speakers, it would please God to save everyone. the question is....WHY are some lost and sent to hell?
Well limited atonement is NOT Biblical.God does not pick and choose some elect before he created us. God commands ALL men everywhere to Repent.Calvanism denies this very clear Scripture in acts.And your right as no Calvanist can answer your question.,because its again just wrong!! Even the earliest Reformers rejected the L in tulip/
@@bobfree1226 you really should read this book.. "From Heaven He Came and Sought Her: Definite Atonement in Historical, Biblical, Theological, and Pastoral Perspective"
@@bobfree1226 by the way, I'm a Calvinist. my question comes from a reformed Calvinist point of view...
@@rbmath i have asked you one of the ultimate questions based on Scripture,and most calvanists cant answer it. God does do what He pleases and wills. But Scripture says He commands All men Everywhere to Repent,an Gods light is in all men john 1 verse 4-9.Just because man is a sinner and can not gain Salvation,does not mean he cant Repent and come to God thru Jesus and Believe.we see it over and over in the Bible.Paul underscores this when he says God even appoints mens times and places so that they might find Him. How can you not get this. it is these clear scriptures that even DR Brown and Dr Flowers agree 100% and many others.ive read all the books out there and calvanism is wrong period.again almost ALL early reformers rejected Limited Atonement.which Calvin Himself called Terrible and Dreadful. Enough said.From the beginning of the bible to the end it says Choose,Choose.stop looking thru the lens of calvanism which i did years ago an it is so clear.
@@bobfree1226 Everyone is commanded to repent. Yet we can't do so unless it is granted to us. Those who did not receive Grace will still be doomed according to the desires of their hearths. Everyone knows God to such an extent that they are unapologetous when they deny him. The lost suppress the truth, so they are guilty. Still God is under no obligation to grant faith and repentance to anyone.
Summary of this soteriology is that the reason someone becomes saved is because they made a wise decision but someone didn't. This is wholesomely unbiblical. Why is it when some people leave cults like Mormonism or Roman Catholicism, some end up as staunch atheists and others become Christians? What's the difference between those two? They both discovered their respective cults were false yet one of them ended up going one way and the other the opposite direction. The Bible says God was the difference, because the sheep know their shepherd's voice and follow Him. Man-centered theology says the guy who became a Christian made a wise decision by themselves. If we all have the ability to save ourselves and God will not interfere with anyone's "libertarian free will", why bother praying for unbelievers to become saved? Aren't you in essence praying that God violates their free-will and takes over by leading them to the truth? Something to think about!
@Choice Meat Randy
So good man!! 👍🏽
Neither Paul, John, Luke, or Peter were Calvinists. Calvinism is a 17th century theology born out of egregious misinterpretations of multiple passages of scripture.
Anyone else excited for a Dr. White response??
... on the next Dividing Line (or Radio Geneva).
@@IndianaJoe0321 either one
Dr. White needs to watch how two humble men can work together and disagree at the same time.
At this point there's no need for a Dr. White response.
The same Dr. White that loves to willingly misrepresent and slander people? 🤔
Excellent, excellent, excellent. These are two men of God teaching the word of God in the wisdom and understanding that only the Holy Ghost can give. Calvinism is really a warp teaching which says God is responsible for every evil act ever committed under heaven. God did not ordain evil, nor does He condemn certain people to hell apart from their own rejection of His grace and mercy. Evil is the result of breaking God’s command. When God gave a command to the sun to be the ruler of the day. The sun still continues to obey a God’s command. When He ordered the moon to be the ruler of the night. The moon continues to be the ruler of the night. Everything in nature continues to obey God’s command. Therefore evil could never have come from the heavenly bodies above because they were not given a mind to choose. The animal kingdom still obeys God’s commands. Whales still swim in the seas, birds continue to fly in the sky’s and land animals still breath air. They all continue to multiply on the earth. They were not given a mind to choose. But man and angels were given the ability to choose. Adam was give a specific command but he chose to disobey that command by eating from a forbidden tree. Angels were given a specific command but they chose to disobey that command by leaving their first estate. Disobedience creates sin; not God
God does not tempt anyone, I agree. God works all things after the council of His will (Ephesians 1:11) however and "all things" include the sinful actions of men. There are many evil acts which God ordained and used to glorify himself, such as the betrayal of Jesus and his sentencing to death by crucifixion. Judas and Pilate acted freely and were 100% responsible for their own sin, yet their actions were also ordained to bring about the salvation of all believers. Josephs brothers acted of their own sinful volition when they sold him into slavery, yet Joseph saw God's hand in their actions when He said " As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people[a] should be kept alive, as they are today". Genesis 50:20.
Just because God gave commands does not mean that someone born in sin has the power to obey his commands. In fact Jesus said that anyone who commits sin is a slave of sin. Nobody has "free will". This is why Jesus said " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". John 6:44. If we had complete freedom to choose this verse would not be true. Nobody can come to Jesus, unless drawn by the Father.
Phil Blagden The Lord creates free will. Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they were NOT WILLING to come to Him even though it was His will. It was God’s will that they gather under Him like a hen gathers her chicks under her. But Israel rejected Him. It was God’s will that Israel should be the envy of the world but instead they became a rebellious nation rejecting God’s will. It was God’s will that Adam should obey His command and not eat from the tree. But Adam CHOSE to disobey. All throughout the Bible you see free will at work in mankind. Free will, which God ordained. The first man Adam was not corrupt. He was not a sinner. He was perfect and yet he CHOSE to listen to his wife instead of obeying his Father. He broke God’s command even though he was not a sinner. That was the risk God was willing to take when He decided to create creatures with the ability to choose. He was not willing to create preprogrammed children. He wanted them to love and obey Him willingly. Knowing that free will would create anomalies within His creation, the Lord prepared to deal with them. And in His infinite wisdom, He actually use these anomalies for His glory. The Lord can never be out done by anything. Not even evil (the anomaly of which I speak of) can be seen as being greater than God. Therefore the Lord used evil for His glory. The Lord is in control of everything. The Lord did not actually create a thing called “steam”. What He created was heat and cold. When these two meet they create steam. The Lord did not create evil. But He created free will and laws to govern free will. But when free will breaks God’s laws that creates evil or sin. The Bible clearly says, Where there is no law, there is no transgression. And Laws must be given because it reveals God’s authority over mankind. God Gave everything to Adam. Yet Adam had to know that God was above him. And the only way to express authority over someone else is when you give a command or a law.
Here's some Scripture:
2 Timothy 2:25:
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
*Takeaways*
1. God is the one who grants unbelievers (you and me and everyone else in the world) repentance
2. Once the repentance is granted, the unbeliever comes to their senses and escapes the trap of the devil
3. What is the trap of the devil? The trap to do his will, meaning, everyone who is an unbeliever *isn't* acting out on their free will, they are doing the devil's will and they need God to grant them repentance in order to escape the trap.
Notice what this verse (and many more like it) isn't saying. It's *not* saying that an unbeliever comes to their senses first and then God grants them repentance, it says the exact opposite so that any time someone comes to their senses it's because God intervened first, not because they used their nonexistent free will to come to their senses. That's what Dr. Brown and Flowers are saying, and unfortunately they are wrong on this issue. I have great respect for Dr. Brown but he's wrong here.
Contrary to what you've been taught, your ability to choose *isn't* free. It is captive to sin, to the flesh, and to the devil. God is the one who has to intervene to save anyone, no one is capable of unhooking them from the traps of this world *by themselves*
Ephesians 2:8:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.
@@TheRgordon16 Asa, you seem to misunderstand what sovereignty is. Sovereignty does not mean that God creates the universe and then leaves it to follow whatever chaotic course happens. He is active in everything, although he is not the author of sin and does not tempt anyone. He does control the sinful actions of men and chooses at times to allow them to follow their evil designs and at other times he prevents them. He prevented Abimelech from sleeping with Sarah in Genesis 20.
Regarding the law, Paul also wrote in Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them".
This clearly teaches that those who don't have God's law will still be judged and pay the penalty for sin because God has written the essence of the law into their consciences so that they already know that they are doing wrong in their hearts. He goes on in chapter 3 to state that all are guilty before God. Nobody is excused from being judged for their sins and salvation is only found through believing in Jesus Christ.
Jesus was the lamb slain "before the foundation of the world". God decreed that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil be placed in the garden. He allowed the serpent to enter to tempt Eve which led to Adam sinning. He knew with certainty this would be the outcome, although man was indeed created without sin. He knew the effects of the fall, even that most would not repent of their rebellion and would suffer His just and eternal punishment. His decision to go ahead sealed their fate, even if you approach this using your mistaken and unbiblical assumption of free will after the fall. (Adam and Eve and Jesus were the only ones with free will, the rest of us are enslaved by our own wicked intentions). God knew the outcome from the start, that most people would go to Hell, and He created anyway. He was willing to show both the depths of his grace and the severity of His wrath from the start. Both these things bring Him glory.
@@choicemeatrandy6572 Nonsense. When I was 8 years old I can remember learning about God. I had no animosity or hatred towards Him. I was simply ignorant about Him. But I can remember both fearing Him and loving Him at the same time once I learned about His awesome power and His love for us. As a child I loved God. Even though I didn't know Him or hear the true Gospel until I was 16, yet in my heart, I respected God. And when I finally did hear the true message of the Gospel, my heart was receptive like the good soil, Jesus spoke of. What you are saying contradicts what Jesus taught concerning the human heart. There is GOOD soil in which God's word falls and produces good fruit. Then there is stoney soil where the word of God does not prosper.
The Lord can do whatever He chooses to do. If He wants to limit Himself by clothing Himself in human flesh and experience being tired, hungry, thirsty and rely on His Holy Spirit just like mortal humans do, then, He can. If He wants to create a world where people have the freedom to choose between light and darkness, he can. Contrary to what you have been taught, people are going to hell because they choose to go there, not because God ordained them to go there. He has made a way of escape and it is up to the individual to accept it. Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and evil. Man has the ability to do both good and evil. But God is perfect and holy, there is no evil in Him. The man was created in the image and likeness of God, therefore he must be perfect and holy just like his Creator. Since man is unable to make himself perfect and holy, The Lord Himself has provided the way through God the Word.
God's sovereignty is not limited to your narrow imaginations. Allowing His creation to do what they want still falls under His sovereignty. And if you had paid attention to what I wrote I said The Lord can step in at times and use evil behavior to glorify His name. I wrote that His wisdom is so superior that He can even use what He hates to fulfill His purpose.
Is a drunk driver responsible for driving properly on a road accountable to the Law Officers?
Calvinists don't think so because of the great Puppet Master being responsible for every thought, doubt, action, etc. which occurs in humanity.
@@IndianaJoe0321 you don't like God as your POTTER? Are you born again?
I am, @@justinwilson3694, but I seriously doubt your salvation since you worship a god who burns babies alive for eternity just so he can get some glory.
News flash: that god you & John [Calvin] worship cannot be located in the Bible.
#ServeJesusNotJohncalvin
Justin Wilson
So you’re saying that man didn’t have a choice to get drunk or to stay sober? He was just drunk from the beginning of time? This analogy doesn’t help the Calvinist or Arminian view. This is just a bad analogy altogether.
@@adamjones6473 was man of flesh or spirit when first made? Did Jesus say a person must be born of the Spirit? That is of flesh is flesh and that is of Spirit is spirit. Does the bible say the first man was of flesh.
John 6:44-45
John 12:32
Ya can't drop a verse one and done style without reading verses in context
Should we follow a mans doctrine or Gods?
Doctrines are inventions of men. You saying God has a doctrine? I'd say God has commands and requirements.
I agree that man has free will but I think the analogy of tumor was poor I still think the Judge would be just condemning to person and to let the person go is to hate the victims of his crime regardless of his condition. We can pity the man but we ought to pity the violated more and to fear God most and we are instructed in scripture not to let the guilt go free.