I think that Monte is misremembering how much the dune book goes into Paul and Duncan‘s relationship. they hardly interact. it isn’t really until Messiah where it’s explored more.
I think Thorin misremembered the Leto babies, the first one dies in the first book but was completely cut from the Dune 2 movie and I can't remember if Paul had his full presceience at this point yet with the ability to prevent his son being killed. Then Chani is pregnant with the second (God Emperor Leto) in Messiah but Paul didn't even know he existed until he was born thanks to pre born shenanigans. It was also the second one that was threatened by the facedancer assassin and the other was killed when the Sardaukar were destroying sietches.
How do they think Duncan's relationship with Paul was butchered? I've read the book recently and it seems to me there is actually more to their relationship in the film than the book. Herbert never really conveyed relationships strongly as far as I can tell.
Even by the standards of book purists, you guys are out to lunch! I'm as much a Dunatic (book version) as anybody else, but I'm constantly surprised by what trivia from the first book you guys seem to think of as "central" to the story. Dune - the book series (through to at least "God Emperor") - is itself a retelling of the original "Atreides" story from Greek myth. It is NOT and was NEVER intended to be a "hero" archetypal story. Though the Ancient Greeks weren't averse to a good bloke-centred hero story, they also knew that there was more than one way to be "chosen" by the gods - and those other ways were very much worth remembering. They're inherently morally ambiguous (like their gods). NO one that I know (among normies who don't know the book) feels anything but uneasy about Paul's evolution in the two films - as befits a Greek tragedy! Finally, if you were well-read enough to be able to compare Villeneuve’s "Arrival" to its source material in the Ted Chiang short story, you'd know that Villeneuve loves to make adaptations that have the audience look at what's happening from one character's particular (and invariably less than fully informed) perspective - usually a woman. I had been expecting that would be Jessica in Part II, but it turned out to be Chani. She will "come around": I'm eager to see how, I admit. But I suspect it will be something bittersweet (it always is with Villeneuve). I see no particular obstacle to his adaptation of "Messiah". The only concern I have is whether he at least takes the story out to the ultimate tragedy of Paul Atreides: his fatal flaw (only revealed in "Children of Dune" in a certain father-and-son scene on a sand dune), his cowardice that condemns his own son to make the sacrifice that he himself refused to make. Now THERE's a scene worthy of a Greek tragedy!
While I dont disagree with most of the points. I believe Villeneuve himself has said they will not be making a movie for all the 6 books, and they will need to adapt it so that it can end in "Messiah".
I think this critique is more like «I like the books more» than a valid critique of how the movies are bad. Only 26 min into the video, but the critique of the actual films are still only, «I dont get why they did that» with hyperbolic language. Well just because you don’t get it doesn’t mean others don’t. However I understand that it is difficult to leave your view on the books at the door, when giving an opinion of the films.
If the movie is an adaptation of a book, then it is correct to critique the movie in terms of how it adapted the source material. The source material will be considered good due to it being a coherent story. Other aspects of the source material can be the themes that it explores, the world that it creates, and the message it it tries to communicate. The movie only manages to capture the story and fails to capture the other things. It loses all the messages Frank Herbert tries to communicate, does a subpar job of world building, and dillutes many of the themes. When you fail to adapt appropriately or even toss in your own garbage into an adaptation, it becomes a muddled mess. Frankly, there were 2 ways to go about adapting this crazy book. You either radically alter it to fit the movie setting, or make it a miniseries. A 2-part movie where the first part is really mediocre is not it.
I have not seen this episode yet, but I personally find the casting to be the reason why I can't get into these adaptations. They're so wooden and made something so unique a setting as Dune's incredibly dull. I'll say it, as well. Zendaya is jarring as fuck and does not belong in the movies at all. Raised my eyebrows immediately upon the realisation that she was casted as Chani. Couldn't think of an actress that could portray her worse.
Was Jason Momoa that bad as Duncan? It's been a while since I've seen it but he seemed fine (although I don't think he'd be able to carry the future of that role based on where I know it goes). He established that he was Paul's friend and that they were more than tutor/student pretty well for the 2 30 second scenes he has to do it, similarly for him being a good fighter. He just doesn't have enough screen time for me to judge him that harshly. It's been a while since I've read the first 2 books (that's all I've read) so maybe there is more that I'm forgetting or don't know that would change that.
Duncan Idaho x Paul is about 5 times more fleshed out in the movie than the book. That setup for Messiah is perfect. They have more chemistry and banter, and all their training and bond together is all mentioned and also explicitly shown in choices, salutes, fight choreography etc. What an insipid critique.
I think Duncan went a bit to far on the social justice angle, although I generally agree. I could probably be convinced with a more dedicated video explaining it but it felt like some of the points were reaching. Although he did mention he watched interviews so he probably has good reason for those opinions they just aren't included here so it's harder for me to fully go with it. Without alot of that information I'd chalk some of those changes up to shortening something trying to make them more visual and just not being good decisions. Just to clarify I'm only talking about a few of the woke points Thorin made I agree with most of them though.
I freakin loved both Dune 1 & 2 . Only minor nitpick is that in this version the world is a little too clean and sterile compared to how grimy and gnarly it is in the books. But hey ill take it, great adaptation. Hope they do Mad Max soon.
Thorin was difficult to watch this episode. I kind of agree the movies were mid but dude kept going back to the culture war stuff. I'm fine with it being brought up but he kept circling back to it.
I have always suspected that when Frank Herbert wrote the original Dune novel there was no plan for any sequels. It was written to be a self contained story. Last thing he expected was for Dune to end up as popular as it became.
I must amend this suspicion good patron. If you check out "Doc Sloans Science Fiction Station" on the utubes, he has a phd/did a thesis on the novel Dune and books beyond! I asked that very question in the chat "which books were written when?" and he basically answered "Dune, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune were all outlined as one", but yeah, it's a detailed 3 generation story arc. Check out the channel. Also, Kara Kennedy can be found online and has researched, Dune lore in book form. Lots of cool, researched Dune lore!
LFN proving to me again and again that I have terrible taste in movies because I watched dune part 2 four fucking times at the cinema and still love it as an experience :b
You don't, they could barely make sound arguments against it without comparing it to books they either don't properly remember at best or lie about at worst. This show has had good episodes, but this is by far the worst.
Only thing missing was the Ebert reviews. Banger episode. Watched Hard Eight tonight in preparation for the next one. Was on my watchlist for a long time and this seemed like the perfect time to finally put it on
Jessica and duncan idaho could have brought some depth to the films but are pretty much wasted. The voice was also done poorly but not an easy thing to translate to screen I guess.
To be fair though, having a format for the very popular movies would be the way to get more engagement and add channel growth. Which I assume is one major objective for LFN in general.
some of the criticisms were a little harsh, particularly those from Thorin who leant too heavily into the supposed political motivations of Villeneuve which we don't even know if that's what he was thinking
The point of Villeneuve's Chani isn't girlboss woke feminist. She is the spokesperson for the Fremen from the North, especially the younger ones, who disagree with the prophecy and fundamentalism of the Southern Fremen. She wants freedom from the Great Houses who have ruled over the Fremen and killed them, but she doesn't want Paul to lead her people into an intergalactic jihad and get themselves killed. Villeneuve is a leftist. He's made that very clear. And he has also talked about wanting to make films about conflicts in the Middle East and North Africa, including Algeria and Gaza. Chani is supposed to be frustratingly contradictory because it is a reflection of how so many people who live in the Middle East are forced to take sides even though it might not be personally what they want or in their best interest. I didn't mind how Chani was portrayed in this film. If the books are already going to borrow so much inspiration from the Middle East then you may as well adopt a more contemporary and realistic depiction of the realities that people in those countries have to contend with. Besides it adds complexity to her character beyond just being someone who goes along with everything from the start.
Number of times Piter is referred to by name in Dune Part 1, zero. Number of times Irulan is referred to by name in Dune Part 2, zero. What popular actor will be treated the same in Dune Part 3?
Did these people even read the book? It was one of the better book adaptations. It missed a few great parts but they are already complaining about pacing. the ending was pretty unsetting.
100% agree with the "event movie" part. I don't go to movies much ever since Covid started, but Dune 2 was the first movie in a while that made me actually go and watch it in the theatre. When I came out with my brother we both looked at each other and were like. This was OK? Idk even on the first viewing I thought this could have been so much more and especially on further thought everything to do with Chani is a massive issue in this film.
For me overall the movie was pretty good, but was HEAVILY carried by the incredible cinematography & sound design. The other aspects left much to be desired imo.
@@Nicklis373 To me it felt a bit too forced. Like Villeneuve knew the story wasn't good enough so he just made it as spectacular as possible. Especially the sound felt epic, but also a bit like Zimmer was trying too hard for it to be epic.
@@Nicklis373 idk why people give the visuals such high praise. It feels as uninspired and hollow as the rest of the movie. It could literally all be out of an ubisoft game.
Agree with Richard on the score being terrible. There's also this annoying trend in big movies currently of doing those really distorted synth stabs. The score in Oppenheimer also does this and it is just so jarring every time. (That Ludwig Goransson guy is also a hack in my opinion)
On the theme of "dumbing down" fantastic source material I would love to hear you gentlemen break down the film adaptation of Ender's Game or Ghost in the Shell
most if not all Arab cultures most women are INCREDIBLY jealous and monogamous, most people only end up with one wife on the "rebellious" aspect of chani is probably much more of a reflection of what's becoming of the newer generations of the much more westernized arab adolescents and adults, in places like Morocco/Egypt/Iran and Afghanistan to name a few, there's a real and notable percentage of anti religious public figures, most of which are very well protected. so my guess is Villeneuve just wanted to depict a more of what we call the independent anti institution trope that's become much more relevant in this day and age compared to the original Herbert writings I think the plot armor is ridiculous, and that it falls really short of the depth of the original. which puts Dune in the spot of it being this generation's Lord of the Rings.
It would be much better if you made actual critiques. You're not saying what something should be, you're just saying something is bad. That's not enough. You need to define your definition of good
I do wish you guys did Blade Runner cause I think there is a lot there for you guys to talk about but I can see why you didn't and if I had to choose 4 I'd choose the same or probably drop Dune for it
Thorin gets way too out of hand with hyperbole when he goes on rants. Calling Denis Villeneuve a hack just because you don't like his dune films when you guys just got done reviewing multiple great films by him is crazy.
21:16 Is that actually not edited? That is ridiculous. I tried to watch Dune 1 twice but I found it so unbelievably boring I couldn't make myself sit through it. There was nothing that captured my interest. I fast forwarded to the sand worm and then closed it down.
@@TheRebornJuker A movie isn't some sacred thing that deserves your respect. It's the equivalent of some candy from the gas station or something. If someone wants to pick all the yellow starburst out of the pack and not eat the rest then who actually cares? Insufferable midwits do.
@@1syn i don't think you understand. in 2015, the year it came out, it was the 88th biggest movie of the year grossing $84M at the box office. It is fair to say that not many people saw it in context for the year when it was only the 88th most popular. However, it had a budget of only $30M dollars meaning it made over double it's budget back in profits. That is why they were able to justify sequels. Not because it was popular, but because it made the studio money back. It objectively wasn't and isn't one of Villenueve's most popular movies.
The hate on the Denis Chani seems so random and illogical. The idea that Paul is just a Messiah is meant to be questioned by the reader as he does it in his internal thoughts. This is obviously not possible in a movie without silly sounding thoughts and thus he adapted Chani - a character which is not very interesting in the books - into the antagonist to Paul, the one who makes you question him. Thorin says "oh it's almost like there aren't messiahs" sarcastically, does he not understand that is literally the point of Dune? That the Messiah failed? That the charismatic leader only led his people to death and destruction? I feel like you guys fundamentally don't understand what an adaptation is - he removes things to make it viable for cinema. The mentats are a random and unnecessary addition. What would it add to the film to explain the Butlerian jihad or Thufir calculating? It is bloat and world building which doesn't work in movies and the fact you don't understand that is the point. "The film tries to bash you with the postmodern guilt of being wrong to have power" - wow you really, really didn't understand Dune. Maybe read it again - Dune is literally about it being the danger of power. The whole point of Paul is his failure due to his humanity - he dooms humanity by trying to save himself and Chani and by giving into revenge.
This is actually such a terrible take because as you progress through the books it becomes very very clear that Paul isn't a failed Messiah, or he is but only in that his vision did not extend far enough forcing his son Leto the II to take on the metamorphism to Shepard humanity to grasp infinity. The entire point of the dune books is the what if? From book 5 and 6 we see it from the Bene Gesserit side where they see him as the Tyrant because he took them out of their power game with humanity. But he had to spread them out infinitely in the scattering if they didnt humanity was doomed. It would not have survived. Now we dont know what it is that humanity would be doomed to, if it is the face dancers, hidden elements of AI, humans own inhibitions and lust for war? We dont know. But if the Golden Path was not followed, humanity would not survive. So no Paul doesn't doom humanity, he subjugates them because its the only way to save it. The entire first book Paul resents the golden path, and he fights against it looking for another way but there is no way. And yes does this mean the Fremen are then just trading one master for another? In a way yes. They loose something essential to their desert spirit and the purity that only came from a culture of oppression. Greed lurks in the heart of all men, and it poisons the fremen when they gain power. (Which is a societal trait studied in the earliest political theorists like al-Mawardi and Ibn Khaldun). But this entire narrative that the messiahs arent real, the qkwisatz haderach is fake, ect ect. ignores the very real fact that he had the powers, and he could part the waves of time and that the prophecy did come into being no matter how much Paul fought against it.
@@kedo6460 One of the ideas of the later dunes with Leto II is the idea of their oppression being needed for survival, but the oppression was needed to instill into humanity a burning desire to expand into the galaxy (the Scattering). But Leto says himself to Paul how he was a failure and how he was too much of a coward to enact the Golden Path as he needed to. Paul looked too far into the future and tried to get the best outcomes for himself, his family, and his people -which was impossible. This is why he blinded himself and why Leto eventually lmiited his own prescience. I'm not saying there is no prophecy or is no prescience leading to a godlike figure but the point is that the more controlling of destiny the messiah figures got, the more they failed. The Tleilaxu KH and Paul both got suicidal and failed in their mission, only Leto II succeeds and its by limiting his prescience and building into humans their own rebellion which had been knocked out of them by Paul (and others). Edit: If you see the Messiah as the figure of prophecy, then sure there clearly are Messiahs but the films don't deny that the prophecy exists or that Paul is fulfilling it. What the films say is that the prophecy is being used to enslave the Fremen and is no guarantee that Paul is a perfect figure which is exactly what the case is. Paul is an imperfect person in an imperfect world.
brit needs to take it down a notch. this could have been interesting and I didn't like the movies either but holy shit, I don't need someone screaming a sermon so loud it's clipping the audio levels.
I disagree with a lot of the takes but was surprised to agree with some of the criticisms when brought to light. Reading the books probably changes the opinion of the movies heavily which I cant relate to since I haven't read them. Love the show and excited for the next series. Gonna watch some of the Paul Thomas Anderson movies I haven't seen to keep up with you guys. Keep up the great content
Luckily Villenueve is done after the 3rd film, he said he only wants to do the Paul Atreides trilogy, so hopefully they either stop ruining Dune or they make it a series on MAX and start all over.
These guys are icons of esports journalism and deserve their respect in that field, but please, for the sake of your views on art, listen to an actual serious film podcast. I don't have much love for the Dune movies, but Thorin suggesting that even a second of the Star Wars prequels is superior is credibility-torpedoing nonsense. If you like their opinions and the general nerd-rage vibe of this then please enjoy, but do not treat these guys as any sort of authority on film. You can get equally valuable (and pretentious) takes by taking a bong rip in any number of liberal arts college dorm rooms across America.
This guy is an icon of UA-cam comments and he deserves his respect in that field, but please, for the sake of your views on art, watch Four Play. If you like his opinions and the general reply guy vibe of his comments, then please enjoy, but do not treat him as any sort of authority on quality podcasts. You can get equally valuable (and pretentious) takes by taking a bong rip and reading the replies to a post on any number of social media platforms.
@@LastFreeNationCulture I don't make a podcast, you do. I don't have a following, you do. That's the difference. Arrival isn't a "hidden sci-fi gem", it was nominated for 8 Oscars and was a huge success. There is no "obscure" PTA film except for maybe hard eight (gonna cover that one? Or the Radiohead documentary?). Not to mention he is about the most painfully obvious contemporary example of an auteur in American cinema you could pick (when's the Tarantino series btw?). Don't position yourselves as authorities aficionados, etc. because you aren't. Anyone who knows their shit can recognize that, but the culturally-bereft, weeb side of your fan base ain't so lucky. I'm not going to start a podcast where I position myself as an "aficionado" of Arthurian Romance because I took a class in high school watched the Green Knight once.
I also see these new Dune movies as not just a character assassination of certain characters like Chani but an intentional assassination of the entire Dune universe itself. These movies are NOT Dune.
everyone told me I was crazy when I said Dune 1 was disappointing as fuck and I didn't think 2 would be good either, i've been waiting for this episode forever and it's so fucking cathartic. Justice.
So then both your opinions stink? Imagine saying that unironically and calling yourself a "film aficionado", just go watch the DVD logo bouncing instead.
The absence of Count Fenring speaks to the direction they have taken. They are purposefully missing on a lot of nuance and depth to the characters. The book did not spend too much time on the Count, however he still did have a meaningful place in the story. The decision to not include him in this adaption speaks to the missed opportunity of not going deeper into the Bene Gesserit prophecy. What we got was a visually stunning movie which misses out on 90% of what made the 1st book great.
Mate the Dune books are the most overhyped books of all time. The background and worldbuilding are amazing but the writing is garbage. You might have liked it because you read it as a teenager, well go reread it as an adult.
Look, your points are fair, but you need to realise that in this current shitty era for sci-fi/fantasy cinema we 're in, where mostly everyone promotes their politically correct agenda instead of trying to create a work of art that is open to interpretation, this might be the best that we can get sadly. Also SW Prequels are worse, I agree with Monte there.
thank you for finally hating on these for us- i literally cant talk about how terrible this movie is to my friends because none of them read the books and cant see how fucking terrible some aspects of these films are. they just think its sick
Okay this is the first big L for LFN Culture. Can't believe what I'm hearing. Why can't you judge the movie alone? Dune will become the next sci-fi cult and y'all be the biggest haters
As someone who didnt read the books i liked the movies that being said both dune movies prabobly not gonna make it to classic in sci-fi, there isnt much discussion about them and most people that watched them enjoyed them but not loved them like other sci-fi classics, it seems very queit for how many people watched it, kinda like avatar and more people seen avatar yet there is very littelk discussion or cult following for it.
Cudos for the editor with the "ahhh ahhhh" when Richs sing
Straight gutted that we've been robbed of Richard's imitation of the "AaaaAaaaAAAAAAA" soundtrack.
He was so loud the audio clipped for his entire interpretation, figured this was the next best thing to replace it with.
@@LastFreeNationCulture even better. Great edit though.
@@LastFreeNationCulture saved it god bless
I could see a stark difference between the way paul carries himself after drinking the water of life.
It's not that there's isn't a difference, it's just that it's done so poorly. Don't get the casting for Paul at all, that actor is so mid
I think that Monte is misremembering how much the dune book goes into Paul and Duncan‘s relationship. they hardly interact. it isn’t really until Messiah where it’s explored more.
It seems Thorin confuses the second half of Dune with Messiah. Gurney and Jessica are not in Messiah.
Chani and Paul have their first child in Dune, who is killed during the raid on Sietch Tabr, which is the catalyst for Paul going south.
I think Thorin misremembered the Leto babies, the first one dies in the first book but was completely cut from the Dune 2 movie and I can't remember if Paul had his full presceience at this point yet with the ability to prevent his son being killed. Then Chani is pregnant with the second (God Emperor Leto) in Messiah but Paul didn't even know he existed until he was born thanks to pre born shenanigans. It was also the second one that was threatened by the facedancer assassin and the other was killed when the Sardaukar were destroying sietches.
How do they think Duncan's relationship with Paul was butchered? I've read the book recently and it seems to me there is actually more to their relationship in the film than the book. Herbert never really conveyed relationships strongly as far as I can tell.
Yeah the relationship wasn't really explored in the books until God Emperor of Dune.
Even by the standards of book purists, you guys are out to lunch!
I'm as much a Dunatic (book version) as anybody else, but I'm constantly surprised by what trivia from the first book you guys seem to think of as "central" to the story.
Dune - the book series (through to at least "God Emperor") - is itself a retelling of the original "Atreides" story from Greek myth. It is NOT and was NEVER intended to be a "hero" archetypal story. Though the Ancient Greeks weren't averse to a good bloke-centred hero story, they also knew that there was more than one way to be "chosen" by the gods - and those other ways were very much worth remembering. They're inherently morally ambiguous (like their gods). NO one that I know (among normies who don't know the book) feels anything but uneasy about Paul's evolution in the two films - as befits a Greek tragedy!
Finally, if you were well-read enough to be able to compare Villeneuve’s "Arrival" to its source material in the Ted Chiang short story, you'd know that Villeneuve loves to make adaptations that have the audience look at what's happening from one character's particular (and invariably less than fully informed) perspective - usually a woman. I had been expecting that would be Jessica in Part II, but it turned out to be Chani.
She will "come around": I'm eager to see how, I admit. But I suspect it will be something bittersweet (it always is with Villeneuve). I see no particular obstacle to his adaptation of "Messiah". The only concern I have is whether he at least takes the story out to the ultimate tragedy of Paul Atreides: his fatal flaw (only revealed in "Children of Dune" in a certain father-and-son scene on a sand dune), his cowardice that condemns his own son to make the sacrifice that he himself refused to make. Now THERE's a scene worthy of a Greek tragedy!
While I dont disagree with most of the points. I believe Villeneuve himself has said they will not be making a movie for all the 6 books, and they will need to adapt it so that it can end in "Messiah".
Honest question: Which of the changes Villeneuve made or things the three guys critizised help in ending the story after Messiah?
that last joke was so fucking unreasonable lmao
Monte is gonna have to buy a ranch at this rate
Need to finish all 6 books, I'll be back 🙏.
if they say the old ass Dune film is better than the newer ones, i will shit myself during bench set today
Weeb pdf acting like he works out, LOL lmfao actually!
@@ShreddasaurusAre you okay?
@@apatshe8188 shinji getting bullied in an anime, manga, movies, novels and even youtube comments. its over
It is
@@Shreddasaurus hello thooorin
20:50 The editing in this one is epic! Outstanding work.
This episode is a banger. The Thorin rants are a feast.
I think this critique is more like «I like the books more» than a valid critique of how the movies are bad. Only 26 min into the video, but the critique of the actual films are still only, «I dont get why they did that» with hyperbolic language. Well just because you don’t get it doesn’t mean others don’t. However I understand that it is difficult to leave your view on the books at the door, when giving an opinion of the films.
If the movie is an adaptation of a book, then it is correct to critique the movie in terms of how it adapted the source material. The source material will be considered good due to it being a coherent story. Other aspects of the source material can be the themes that it explores, the world that it creates, and the message it it tries to communicate.
The movie only manages to capture the story and fails to capture the other things. It loses all the messages Frank Herbert tries to communicate, does a subpar job of world building, and dillutes many of the themes. When you fail to adapt appropriately or even toss in your own garbage into an adaptation, it becomes a muddled mess.
Frankly, there were 2 ways to go about adapting this crazy book. You either radically alter it to fit the movie setting, or make it a miniseries. A 2-part movie where the first part is really mediocre is not it.
Was expecting this to be 3 hours long 😅
I wish it was
2 hours at least! Wtf hapenned? :(
big sadge
The previous Denis Villeneuve movies were great and I'm really grateful you essentially made me watch them, first time for them all.
I have not seen this episode yet, but I personally find the casting to be the reason why I can't get into these adaptations. They're so wooden and made something so unique a setting as Dune's incredibly dull. I'll say it, as well. Zendaya is jarring as fuck and does not belong in the movies at all. Raised my eyebrows immediately upon the realisation that she was casted as Chani. Couldn't think of an actress that could portray her worse.
The thought of King Theoden played by Zendaya crushed me. Her in the Rohirrim armour needlessly scowling at the camera
Was Jason Momoa that bad as Duncan? It's been a while since I've seen it but he seemed fine (although I don't think he'd be able to carry the future of that role based on where I know it goes). He established that he was Paul's friend and that they were more than tutor/student pretty well for the 2 30 second scenes he has to do it, similarly for him being a good fighter. He just doesn't have enough screen time for me to judge him that harshly. It's been a while since I've read the first 2 books (that's all I've read) so maybe there is more that I'm forgetting or don't know that would change that.
Duncan Idaho x Paul is about 5 times more fleshed out in the movie than the book. That setup for Messiah is perfect. They have more chemistry and banter, and all their training and bond together is all mentioned and also explicitly shown in choices, salutes, fight choreography etc. What an insipid critique.
Thorin’s take on why everyone hates the last season of GoT is pure gold man. What a legend.
I think Duncan went a bit to far on the social justice angle, although I generally agree. I could probably be convinced with a more dedicated video explaining it but it felt like some of the points were reaching. Although he did mention he watched interviews so he probably has good reason for those opinions they just aren't included here so it's harder for me to fully go with it. Without alot of that information I'd chalk some of those changes up to shortening something trying to make them more visual and just not being good decisions. Just to clarify I'm only talking about a few of the woke points Thorin made I agree with most of them though.
HAHA only duncan could come up with the joke at the end of the episode LOL - he rightfully looks very proud of himself afterwards
I freakin loved both Dune 1 & 2 . Only minor nitpick is that in this version the world is a little too clean and sterile compared to how grimy and gnarly it is in the books. But hey ill take it, great adaptation.
Hope they do Mad Max soon.
The fact you guys are doing a PTA arc and not watching Inherent Vice is criminal.
I really like the director arcs more than the genre arcs (both are great tho) Keep it up !
Richard fuckn cooked towards the end my goodness.
Thorin was difficult to watch this episode. I kind of agree the movies were mid but dude kept going back to the culture war stuff. I'm fine with it being brought up but he kept circling back to it.
I have always suspected that when Frank Herbert wrote the original Dune novel there was no plan for any sequels. It was written to be a self contained story.
Last thing he expected was for Dune to end up as popular as it became.
I must amend this suspicion good patron. If you check out "Doc Sloans Science Fiction Station" on the utubes, he has a phd/did a thesis on the novel Dune and books beyond! I asked that very question in the chat "which books were written when?" and he basically answered "Dune, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune were all outlined as one", but yeah, it's a detailed 3 generation story arc. Check out the channel. Also, Kara Kennedy can be found online and has researched, Dune lore in book form.
Lots of cool, researched Dune lore!
Great episode, thanks for the insight
3:00 5:02 8:00 pacing 9:58 13:00 its boring even w/o reading book 15:07 18:50 21:00 texture 23:50 26:50 28:10 31:00 31:59 33:40 plot armor intrigue 44:40 46:40 47:24 53:16 58:32 baron 59:35 ebert lol Dune is just impossible to make Now. 1:02:22 good 1:04:20 got 1:07:46 golden path 1:18:10 1:21:41 1:23:58 dis i just went to try imax after that I didn't want to rewatch it.
LFN proving to me again and again that I have terrible taste in movies because I watched dune part 2 four fucking times at the cinema and still love it as an experience :b
You don't, they could barely make sound arguments against it without comparing it to books they either don't properly remember at best or lie about at worst.
This show has had good episodes, but this is by far the worst.
Surprised this is only an hour and a half.
Only thing missing was the Ebert reviews. Banger episode. Watched Hard Eight tonight in preparation for the next one. Was on my watchlist for a long time and this seemed like the perfect time to finally put it on
Jessica and duncan idaho could have brought some depth to the films but are pretty much wasted. The voice was also done poorly but not an easy thing to translate to screen I guess.
To be fair though, having a format for the very popular movies would be the way to get more engagement and add channel growth. Which I assume is one major objective for LFN in general.
some of the criticisms were a little harsh, particularly those from Thorin who leant too heavily into the supposed political motivations of Villeneuve which we don't even know if that's what he was thinking
The point of Villeneuve's Chani isn't girlboss woke feminist. She is the spokesperson for the Fremen from the North, especially the younger ones, who disagree with the prophecy and fundamentalism of the Southern Fremen. She wants freedom from the Great Houses who have ruled over the Fremen and killed them, but she doesn't want Paul to lead her people into an intergalactic jihad and get themselves killed.
Villeneuve is a leftist. He's made that very clear. And he has also talked about wanting to make films about conflicts in the Middle East and North Africa, including Algeria and Gaza.
Chani is supposed to be frustratingly contradictory because it is a reflection of how so many people who live in the Middle East are forced to take sides even though it might not be personally what they want or in their best interest.
I didn't mind how Chani was portrayed in this film. If the books are already going to borrow so much inspiration from the Middle East then you may as well adopt a more contemporary and realistic depiction of the realities that people in those countries have to contend with. Besides it adds complexity to her character beyond just being someone who goes along with everything from the start.
@@hockeybuzz555 Couldn't have said it better myself. I especially like that it added another dimension to Chani.
There was a cool line of dialogue: "Here I am, here I remain".
The editing of richard and the sand ost is great
Number of times Piter is referred to by name in Dune Part 1, zero. Number of times Irulan is referred to by name in Dune Part 2, zero. What popular actor will be treated the same in Dune Part 3?
Did these people even read the book? It was one of the better book adaptations. It missed a few great parts but they are already complaining about pacing. the ending was pretty unsetting.
100% agree with the "event movie" part. I don't go to movies much ever since Covid started, but Dune 2 was the first movie in a while that made me actually go and watch it in the theatre. When I came out with my brother we both looked at each other and were like. This was OK? Idk even on the first viewing I thought this could have been so much more and especially on further thought everything to do with Chani is a massive issue in this film.
For me overall the movie was pretty good, but was HEAVILY carried by the incredible cinematography & sound design. The other aspects left much to be desired imo.
@@Nicklis373 To me it felt a bit too forced. Like Villeneuve knew the story wasn't good enough so he just made it as spectacular as possible. Especially the sound felt epic, but also a bit like Zimmer was trying too hard for it to be epic.
@@Nicklis373 idk why people give the visuals such high praise. It feels as uninspired and hollow as the rest of the movie. It could literally all be out of an ubisoft game.
Agree with Richard on the score being terrible.
There's also this annoying trend in big movies currently of doing those really distorted synth stabs. The score in Oppenheimer also does this and it is just so jarring every time. (That Ludwig Goransson guy is also a hack in my opinion)
Agree on Goransson. People act like he's the second coming of John Williams
some star wars prequels better than this is nuts lmao
Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith slaps either Dune 1 and 2
@@TommyScott-g1p ROTS better than Dune 1, yeah it's arguable, the other two movies though aren't close to either of them
The prequels are good tho
Zendaya as King Theoden is a great shout 😂
On the theme of "dumbing down" fantastic source material I would love to hear you gentlemen break down the film adaptation of Ender's Game or Ghost in the Shell
I hated Jason Momoa has Duncan terrible casting imo.
Who would you prefer? He's the perfect easy-going greatest warrior of all time
most if not all Arab cultures most women are INCREDIBLY jealous and monogamous, most people only end up with one wife
on the "rebellious" aspect of chani is probably much more of a reflection of what's becoming of the newer generations of the much more westernized arab adolescents and adults, in places like Morocco/Egypt/Iran and Afghanistan to name a few, there's a real and notable percentage of anti religious public figures, most of which are very well protected. so my guess is Villeneuve just wanted to depict a more of what we call the independent anti institution trope that's become much more relevant in this day and age compared to the original Herbert writings
I think the plot armor is ridiculous, and that it falls really short of the depth of the original. which puts Dune in the spot of it being this generation's Lord of the Rings.
It would be much better if you made actual critiques. You're not saying what something should be, you're just saying something is bad. That's not enough. You need to define your definition of good
I do wish you guys did Blade Runner cause I think there is a lot there for you guys to talk about but I can see why you didn't and if I had to choose 4 I'd choose the same or probably drop Dune for it
Right on it mates!
I'll still take Lynch's version as something I can watch, and Just read the books.
Imma be honest I didn't even know dune were books. I watched dune and thought it was cool.
Just finished the 6th book. Perfect timing.
What about Inherent Vice? Really underrated film by PTA
Big PTA fan, can't complain about getting an excuse to rewatch 4 classics
pls nolan arc and david fincher.
This was a really painful watch, at least Richard is self aware enough to recognize the "muh books" mentality
The dialouge and characters suck in dune 1 and 2. The movies are great visually, thats about it.
Thorin gets way too out of hand with hyperbole when he goes on rants. Calling Denis Villeneuve a hack just because you don't like his dune films when you guys just got done reviewing multiple great films by him is crazy.
That is the fun of this show. Maybe it's not for you.
A director can make multiple great films, and then later make a film that warrants them being called a ‘hack’. What is crazy about this?
The irony of invoking hyperbole then stating Duncan calls him a hack "just because" he didn't like his Dune films is very juicy
21:16 Is that actually not edited? That is ridiculous. I tried to watch Dune 1 twice but I found it so unbelievably boring I couldn't make myself sit through it. There was nothing that captured my interest. I fast forwarded to the sand worm and then closed it down.
IQ diff i guess
@@TheRebornJuker Its a vacuous nightmare of a film. Something being slow and boring doesn't equate to it being intellectual or well crafted.
@@uhmmmFU imagine fast forwarding when watching a movie yikes ADHD much?
@@TheRebornJuker A movie isn't some sacred thing that deserves your respect. It's the equivalent of some candy from the gas station or something. If someone wants to pick all the yellow starburst out of the pack and not eat the rest then who actually cares? Insufferable midwits do.
Thorin’s rants in this are legendary
Dune is not a failure. Its a pretty good set of films. Star wars is failing.
Imagine this movie with a Bill Skarsgard at lead instead of Chalamet
Bill Skarsgård? Really?
i think it’s funny that thorin said nobody saw sicario when it got two sequels lmao
It was successful based off its small budget. It was still a relatively small movie in the context of the year.
@@astar2394 how many people saw a movie in one year doesn’t tell me how popular a movie is overall lmao
@@1syn i don't think you understand. in 2015, the year it came out, it was the 88th biggest movie of the year grossing $84M at the box office. It is fair to say that not many people saw it in context for the year when it was only the 88th most popular. However, it had a budget of only $30M dollars meaning it made over double it's budget back in profits. That is why they were able to justify sequels. Not because it was popular, but because it made the studio money back. It objectively wasn't and isn't one of Villenueve's most popular movies.
Paul Thomas Anderson! Let's fucking go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
had to turn off the video when i heard "i hated this score"
Thorin sounds stupid .
Nice
The hate on the Denis Chani seems so random and illogical. The idea that Paul is just a Messiah is meant to be questioned by the reader as he does it in his internal thoughts. This is obviously not possible in a movie without silly sounding thoughts and thus he adapted Chani - a character which is not very interesting in the books - into the antagonist to Paul, the one who makes you question him.
Thorin says "oh it's almost like there aren't messiahs" sarcastically, does he not understand that is literally the point of Dune? That the Messiah failed? That the charismatic leader only led his people to death and destruction?
I feel like you guys fundamentally don't understand what an adaptation is - he removes things to make it viable for cinema. The mentats are a random and unnecessary addition. What would it add to the film to explain the Butlerian jihad or Thufir calculating? It is bloat and world building which doesn't work in movies and the fact you don't understand that is the point.
"The film tries to bash you with the postmodern guilt of being wrong to have power" - wow you really, really didn't understand Dune. Maybe read it again - Dune is literally about it being the danger of power. The whole point of Paul is his failure due to his humanity - he dooms humanity by trying to save himself and Chani and by giving into revenge.
This is actually such a terrible take because as you progress through the books it becomes very very clear that Paul isn't a failed Messiah, or he is but only in that his vision did not extend far enough forcing his son Leto the II to take on the metamorphism to Shepard humanity to grasp infinity. The entire point of the dune books is the what if? From book 5 and 6 we see it from the Bene Gesserit side where they see him as the Tyrant because he took them out of their power game with humanity. But he had to spread them out infinitely in the scattering if they didnt humanity was doomed. It would not have survived.
Now we dont know what it is that humanity would be doomed to, if it is the face dancers, hidden elements of AI, humans own inhibitions and lust for war? We dont know. But if the Golden Path was not followed, humanity would not survive. So no Paul doesn't doom humanity, he subjugates them because its the only way to save it. The entire first book Paul resents the golden path, and he fights against it looking for another way but there is no way. And yes does this mean the Fremen are then just trading one master for another? In a way yes. They loose something essential to their desert spirit and the purity that only came from a culture of oppression. Greed lurks in the heart of all men, and it poisons the fremen when they gain power. (Which is a societal trait studied in the earliest political theorists like al-Mawardi and Ibn Khaldun). But this entire narrative that the messiahs arent real, the qkwisatz haderach is fake, ect ect. ignores the very real fact that he had the powers, and he could part the waves of time and that the prophecy did come into being no matter how much Paul fought against it.
Yeah Thorin is just ideologically blinded here
It actually has very sound logic. Chani is a woman, which makes Thorin immediately mad when she's in opposition to a man. Hope this helped!
@@kedo6460 One of the ideas of the later dunes with Leto II is the idea of their oppression being needed for survival, but the oppression was needed to instill into humanity a burning desire to expand into the galaxy (the Scattering).
But Leto says himself to Paul how he was a failure and how he was too much of a coward to enact the Golden Path as he needed to. Paul looked too far into the future and tried to get the best outcomes for himself, his family, and his people -which was impossible. This is why he blinded himself and why Leto eventually lmiited his own prescience.
I'm not saying there is no prophecy or is no prescience leading to a godlike figure but the point is that the more controlling of destiny the messiah figures got, the more they failed. The Tleilaxu KH and Paul both got suicidal and failed in their mission, only Leto II succeeds and its by limiting his prescience and building into humans their own rebellion which had been knocked out of them by Paul (and others).
Edit: If you see the Messiah as the figure of prophecy, then sure there clearly are Messiahs but the films don't deny that the prophecy exists or that Paul is fulfilling it. What the films say is that the prophecy is being used to enslave the Fremen and is no guarantee that Paul is a perfect figure which is exactly what the case is. Paul is an imperfect person in an imperfect world.
Chani is girlbossing too hard and there have been some "questionable" character race and gender swaps for brownie points, that's true
Dune 1984 Video is unfortunately blocked in german speaking countries
literally 1984
brit needs to take it down a notch. this could have been interesting and I didn't like the movies either but holy shit, I don't need someone screaming a sermon so loud it's clipping the audio levels.
You must be new around these parts. The rants are the main course.
I disagree with a lot of the takes but was surprised to agree with some of the criticisms when brought to light. Reading the books probably changes the opinion of the movies heavily which I cant relate to since I haven't read them. Love the show and excited for the next series. Gonna watch some of the Paul Thomas Anderson movies I haven't seen to keep up with you guys. Keep up the great content
Luckily Villenueve is done after the 3rd film, he said he only wants to do the Paul Atreides trilogy, so hopefully they either stop ruining Dune or they make it a series on MAX and start all over.
10:08 🎙️
21:00
These guys are icons of esports journalism and deserve their respect in that field, but please, for the sake of your views on art, listen to an actual serious film podcast. I don't have much love for the Dune movies, but Thorin suggesting that even a second of the Star Wars prequels is superior is credibility-torpedoing nonsense. If you like their opinions and the general nerd-rage vibe of this then please enjoy, but do not treat these guys as any sort of authority on film. You can get equally valuable (and pretentious) takes by taking a bong rip in any number of liberal arts college dorm rooms across America.
ROTJ slaps Dune
@@TommyScott-g1p that's not a prequel bud
This guy is an icon of UA-cam comments and he deserves his respect in that field, but please, for the sake of your views on art, watch Four Play. If you like his opinions and the general reply guy vibe of his comments, then please enjoy, but do not treat him as any sort of authority on quality podcasts. You can get equally valuable (and pretentious) takes by taking a bong rip and reading the replies to a post on any number of social media platforms.
@@LastFreeNationCulture I don't make a podcast, you do. I don't have a following, you do. That's the difference.
Arrival isn't a "hidden sci-fi gem", it was nominated for 8 Oscars and was a huge success. There is no "obscure" PTA film except for maybe hard eight (gonna cover that one? Or the Radiohead documentary?). Not to mention he is about the most painfully obvious contemporary example of an auteur in American cinema you could pick (when's the Tarantino series btw?).
Don't position yourselves as authorities aficionados, etc. because you aren't. Anyone who knows their shit can recognize that, but the culturally-bereft, weeb side of your fan base ain't so lucky. I'm not going to start a podcast where I position myself as an "aficionado" of Arthurian Romance because I took a class in high school watched the Green Knight once.
@@LastFreeNationCulture You cant take criticism and you sound like a snowflake .
True and based takes
Wtf.. I read Lord of the Rings a few weeks before the first movie came out. The adaptations are absolutely horrible....
Sicarios is boring shit.
There Will be Blood - is one of the best films ever made.
I won't say anything since you two aren't challenging it either.
I also see these new Dune movies as not just a character assassination of certain characters like Chani but an intentional assassination of the entire Dune universe itself. These movies are NOT Dune.
everyone told me I was crazy when I said Dune 1 was disappointing as fuck and I didn't think 2 would be good either, i've been waiting for this episode forever and it's so fucking cathartic. Justice.
Do you need the validation of three old men going "muh books" for 90 minutes to affirm your opinions?
@@emillarsson1299 No? I just knew it would be entertaining. Why are you watching it then? you seem mad posting cringe like that lmfao
I actually hard agree with Thorin, I would rather re-watch Clone Wars or Revenge of the Sith than re-watch Dune.
So then both your opinions stink? Imagine saying that unironically and calling yourself a "film aficionado", just go watch the DVD logo bouncing instead.
@@emillarsson1299 when the hell did I call myself that
Hugh Jackman or Idris Elba might have been a great choices for Duncan Idaho.
The absence of Count Fenring speaks to the direction they have taken. They are purposefully missing on a lot of nuance and depth to the characters.
The book did not spend too much time on the Count, however he still did have a meaningful place in the story. The decision to not include him in this adaption speaks to the missed opportunity of not going deeper into the Bene Gesserit prophecy.
What we got was a visually stunning movie which misses out on 90% of what made the 1st book great.
Mate the Dune books are the most overhyped books of all time. The background and worldbuilding are amazing but the writing is garbage. You might have liked it because you read it as a teenager, well go reread it as an adult.
Elaborate, please.
Look, your points are fair, but you need to realise that in this current shitty era for sci-fi/fantasy cinema we 're in, where mostly everyone promotes their politically correct agenda instead of trying to create a work of art that is open to interpretation, this might be the best that we can get sadly.
Also SW Prequels are worse, I agree with Monte there.
thank you for finally hating on these for us- i literally cant talk about how terrible this movie is to my friends because none of them read the books and cant see how fucking terrible some aspects of these films are. they just think its sick
Okay this is the first big L for LFN Culture. Can't believe what I'm hearing.
Why can't you judge the movie alone?
Dune will become the next sci-fi cult and y'all be the biggest haters
"why can't you just pretend chicken nuggets are the best way to cook chicken??!?!?" - you, a pleb
Yes and Hobbit is also visually cool and written garbage trilogy made out of good book.
@@veenii5012Not the comparison you think it is.
As someone who didnt read the books i liked the movies that being said both dune movies prabobly not gonna make it to classic in sci-fi, there isnt much discussion about them and most people that watched them enjoyed them but not loved them like other sci-fi classics, it seems very queit for how many people watched it, kinda like avatar and more people seen avatar yet there is very littelk discussion or cult following for it.
lmao
Dune 2 was the best movie ever for me. I read the 3 first books and didnt really enjoy the authors style and narrative. The movies fixed the books