On a reach you can sheet the sail using the leach tell tales. Sheet in until you get turbulence on the leach tell tale. It can also help you set the vang tension as if you get them all stalling at the same time the vang is right.
Hi Andy, Thanks for the tag, I'm flattered that you'd recommend my videos! I've seen some of yours too - It's great that there are so many resources to help to keep people on the water. All the best Phil
Thanks you so much that was such a good video and I have opened my eyes to being able to tell why my telltails are doing what they are doing, I have always wondered why on the boat I sail with has a lot of mainsail twist and hook why the telltails are so inconsistent across the vertical of the sail and now i know thanks so much Another not tho the boat I sail for some reason sailed fastest upwind with the windward telltails on the Jib lifting up a bit and I do not understand why, maybe it's because of the way the main behaves at the angle of attack
Thanks. I hope to do a video about how the main and jib work together. Definitely makes sense what you are saying and is a good case of knowing your boat.
I think I have the explanation for your case. When both telltales streaming perfectly, you achieve the highest lift but also the highest drag. The highest coefficient of lift and drag (the best lift to drag ratio) is not at that point, however, but slightly before that, where the windward telltales stall a bit, and the leeward telltales stream perfectly, and that where you go the fastest upwind. You can learn more about it in this video: ua-cam.com/video/NDX_VNO2Qb8/v-deo.html&si=MfeRS5tYKJZREiwg
the insight about mast turbulence in lasers is very helpful; ultimately I think it was a mistake to suggest that we shouldnt watch windward telltale. depending on wind conditions, telltale positioning, etc, sometime windward telltale may misbehave, but most of the time it will be out of the turbulence and providing accurate point data. unless you are particularly down on speed and need to take a moment to accelerate in "first gear", it is better to err somewhat higher in your groove, and by the time the leeward telltale begins to lose flow you are already way too low
On a reach the tell tale closest to the mast is wind shadowed and so of little information. The sail in the video at 6 minutes maybe should be let out a bit more. Part of tell tale 'theory' is that modern sails aren't usually 'pushed' by the wind so much as they are 'sucked' (lifted) by the wind. "Feel the boat" may be good for a lot of things, but speed isn't one of them. We're all tricked by noise and activity. Sailing close hauled it will really feel like something is going on, but turning away from the wind and changing the sails usually quiets things down. One will generally assume We are now going slower. Check the gauge. Often we aren't. During a try out day for kayaks a friend brought along a GPS. The Greenland hulled 'yaks were kicking up a bow wave and really felt like they really fast. The long sleek 'yaks weren't kicking up a wave so they seemed slow. The active 'fast' Greenland 'yaks were 3 knots, the long quiet 'yaks were 4 - 4.5 knots. On my 46' sailboat I adjust my sails a bit and then check the speed gauge. Faster? Great, but the wind might've just picked up. All in all good info in this video...but.. All the information on tell tales I've come across is so this and that I'm left a bit suspicious. Have a beer with some experienced sailors and ask them about tell tales. They'll say a lot, a lot of which disagrees. Hang out with some aeronautical engineers. Ask them about tell tales. They'll all say the same things. Look at wind tunnel tests for airplanes. They have numerous tell tales all over the 'wing' and even on the fuselage. The general rule for any airfoil is that the most important tell tale is on the chord - the thickest part of the wing, usually about 1/3rd back from the leading edge. That's where the lift begins, behind this you want a linear flow which keeps the moving air continuing to lift the wing. Turbulence indicates detachment and loss of lift. This strongly indicates (to me) that on sails (which are also air foils, but sometimes simple 'barn doors' down wind wing on wing) having tell tales right next to the mast and then half way back near the luff indicates little understanding of what's really going on. In many sail positions the mast is shadowing that part of the sail - nothing can be done about that - so anything the tell tales that close indicates is noise. Of course I might be completely wrong, after all a lot of effort is put into the design of sails, and I'm just a guy who's been sailing for a couple of years. I did put tell tales three across up and down my jib. Maybe a dozen in total. They're harmless and cheap so why not? I'll do that to my main when I get the chance. With more data points I'm more likely to get more information. My reasoning is: I'm what might be called a Stage Two sailor. A Stage One Sailor would be a rookie who's just learning and is afraid they might be setting the sails wrong. They think a bit off and the boat isn't going to move. Stage Two is when you realize almost anything you do will move the boat, make a few changes (trim), accept suggestions from other sailors onboard, but don't worry about it too much. Stage Three would probably be a Wednesday Night Racer, and so on up the stages. I sailed several months as crew on a catamaran. Downwind we'd fly a Parasailor. Probably a total of three weeks. I spent a lot of time looking at the tell tales on it. Still not sure what they were supposed to be doing or indicating. My conclusion is that indicated very little. (is it flying steadily?, SOG and the levelness of the sail were the best indicators.) Placement of these tell tales seemed almost arbitrary. Are they supposed to point at the 'hole' where the pockets wing is? An Oxley Martin sail is essentially exactly the same except only two sheets instead of four. I also suspect that the pocket wing may be completely superfluous. It sure looks cool. One indication that something isn't quite fully figured out: No clear set of instructions and after launching and recovering the Para Sailor a half dozen times you come up with efficient procedures that you can find no where. You figure out other things. (The bag should have flaps low down on the sides, so you can reach down into the bag and attach the sheets to the clews. This way you can fly it right out of the bag. Seems pretty obvious.) What all this also indicates is that there might be sail innovations no one has figured out or applied just yet. I like tell tales, intend to use them... but the best tools are 1. are the sails full and 2. what's the SOG saying?
As a total newbie, I've been looking for a video like this. Thank you! Just curious where you'd place the RS Aero (actually a NEO, but similar rig and the same mast shape) on the list of how the teltales act. So far, I've observed similar to what you described with the Topper...but since I'm still learning, I'm curious how you think it would act?
You are welcome. I am glad it has helped. I'm not sure about the Aero/Neo, it is a mast with a mast track so would expect the telltales to be quite accurate. I would suggest trying to get the leeward telltale flying upwind and feel where the power comes and goes as you steer. Then have a look at the windward telltale. Also see if it is relatively easy to get both telltales streaming together.
The Topper has the tell tales too close to the mast. They are in the mast shadow. Many Laser sailors place 3 roughly in a triangle. They show the shadow and proper flow just before max chord.
On a reach you can sheet the sail using the leach tell tales. Sheet in until you get turbulence on the leach tell tale. It can also help you set the vang tension as if you get them all stalling at the same time the vang is right.
Hi Andy,
Thanks for the tag, I'm flattered that you'd recommend my videos!
I've seen some of yours too - It's great that there are so many resources to help to keep people on the water.
All the best
Phil
Thanks Phil. You have some great videos which really explain the basics well, something that is rare on UA-cam.
@@Andykerrsailtraining Cheers 🙂
I just hope they help people, as do yours
Excellent stuff Andy.
I thought it was me! Thanks for the explainer. Will stop worrying about my windward tell tales. Of course I should have known - mast turbulence!
Thanks you so much that was such a good video and I have opened my eyes to being able to tell why my telltails are doing what they are doing, I have always wondered why on the boat I sail with has a lot of mainsail twist and hook why the telltails are so inconsistent across the vertical of the sail and now i know thanks so much
Another not tho the boat I sail for some reason sailed fastest upwind with the windward telltails on the Jib lifting up a bit and I do not understand why, maybe it's because of the way the main behaves at the angle of attack
Thanks. I hope to do a video about how the main and jib work together. Definitely makes sense what you are saying and is a good case of knowing your boat.
I think I have the explanation for your case. When both telltales streaming perfectly, you achieve the highest lift but also the highest drag. The highest coefficient of lift and drag (the best lift to drag ratio) is not at that point, however, but slightly before that, where the windward telltales stall a bit, and the leeward telltales stream perfectly, and that where you go the fastest upwind.
You can learn more about it in this video: ua-cam.com/video/NDX_VNO2Qb8/v-deo.html&si=MfeRS5tYKJZREiwg
the insight about mast turbulence in lasers is very helpful; ultimately I think it was a mistake to suggest that we shouldnt watch windward telltale. depending on wind conditions, telltale positioning, etc, sometime windward telltale may misbehave, but most of the time it will be out of the turbulence and providing accurate point data. unless you are particularly down on speed and need to take a moment to accelerate in "first gear", it is better to err somewhat higher in your groove, and by the time the leeward telltale begins to lose flow you are already way too low
On a reach the tell tale closest to the mast is wind shadowed and so of little information. The sail in the video at 6 minutes maybe should be let out a bit more. Part of tell tale 'theory' is that modern sails aren't usually 'pushed' by the wind so much as they are 'sucked' (lifted) by the wind.
"Feel the boat" may be good for a lot of things, but speed isn't one of them. We're all tricked by noise and activity. Sailing close hauled it will really feel like something is going on, but turning away from the wind and changing the sails usually quiets things down. One will generally assume We are now going slower. Check the gauge. Often we aren't. During a try out day for kayaks a friend brought along a GPS. The Greenland hulled 'yaks were kicking up a bow wave and really felt like they really fast. The long sleek 'yaks weren't kicking up a wave so they seemed slow. The active 'fast' Greenland 'yaks were 3 knots, the long quiet 'yaks were 4 - 4.5 knots. On my 46' sailboat I adjust my sails a bit and then check the speed gauge. Faster? Great, but the wind might've just picked up.
All in all good info in this video...but.. All the information on tell tales I've come across is so this and that I'm left a bit suspicious. Have a beer with some experienced sailors and ask them about tell tales. They'll say a lot, a lot of which disagrees. Hang out with some aeronautical engineers. Ask them about tell tales. They'll all say the same things. Look at wind tunnel tests for airplanes. They have numerous tell tales all over the 'wing' and even on the fuselage. The general rule for any airfoil is that the most important tell tale is on the chord - the thickest part of the wing, usually about 1/3rd back from the leading edge. That's where the lift begins, behind this you want a linear flow which keeps the moving air continuing to lift the wing. Turbulence indicates detachment and loss of lift. This strongly indicates (to me) that on sails (which are also air foils, but sometimes simple 'barn doors' down wind wing on wing) having tell tales right next to the mast and then half way back near the luff indicates little understanding of what's really going on. In many sail positions the mast is shadowing that part of the sail - nothing can be done about that - so anything the tell tales that close indicates is noise.
Of course I might be completely wrong, after all a lot of effort is put into the design of sails, and I'm just a guy who's been sailing for a couple of years. I did put tell tales three across up and down my jib. Maybe a dozen in total. They're harmless and cheap so why not? I'll do that to my main when I get the chance. With more data points I'm more likely to get more information.
My reasoning is: I'm what might be called a Stage Two sailor. A Stage One Sailor would be a rookie who's just learning and is afraid they might be setting the sails wrong. They think a bit off and the boat isn't going to move.
Stage Two is when you realize almost anything you do will move the boat, make a few changes (trim), accept suggestions from other sailors onboard, but don't worry about it too much.
Stage Three would probably be a Wednesday Night Racer, and so on up the stages.
I sailed several months as crew on a catamaran. Downwind we'd fly a Parasailor. Probably a total of three weeks. I spent a lot of time looking at the tell tales on it. Still not sure what they were supposed to be doing or indicating. My conclusion is that indicated very little. (is it flying steadily?, SOG and the levelness of the sail were the best indicators.) Placement of these tell tales seemed almost arbitrary. Are they supposed to point at the 'hole' where the pockets wing is? An Oxley Martin sail is essentially exactly the same except only two sheets instead of four. I also suspect that the pocket wing may be completely superfluous. It sure looks cool.
One indication that something isn't quite fully figured out: No clear set of instructions and after launching and recovering the Para Sailor a half dozen times you come up with efficient procedures that you can find no where. You figure out other things. (The bag should have flaps low down on the sides, so you can reach down into the bag and attach the sheets to the clews. This way you can fly it right out of the bag. Seems pretty obvious.) What all this also indicates is that there might be sail innovations no one has figured out or applied just yet. I like tell tales, intend to use them... but the best tools are 1. are the sails full and 2. what's the SOG saying?
Im glad I got you thinking whether you choose to use or discard the information.
As a total newbie, I've been looking for a video like this. Thank you! Just curious where you'd place the RS Aero (actually a NEO, but similar rig and the same mast shape) on the list of how the teltales act. So far, I've observed similar to what you described with the Topper...but since I'm still learning, I'm curious how you think it would act?
You are welcome. I am glad it has helped. I'm not sure about the Aero/Neo, it is a mast with a mast track so would expect the telltales to be quite accurate. I would suggest trying to get the leeward telltale flying upwind and feel where the power comes and goes as you steer. Then have a look at the windward telltale. Also see if it is relatively easy to get both telltales streaming together.
The Topper has the tell tales too close to the mast. They are in the mast shadow. Many Laser sailors place 3 roughly in a triangle. They show the shadow and proper flow just before max chord.