Steven Pinker: Language and Consciousness, Part 1 Complete: Thinking Allowed w/ J. Mishlove
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
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This is Part 1 of a four part, two-hour Thinking Allowed DVD. Are our thoughts shaped by the language we use?
What a great conversation. "At some point in time, people are going to listening to some sort of an electronic representation of this conversation and they'll know what we're thinking. (24:50)".
Mishlove is by far one of the greatest interviewers of all time
And you are the most intelligent commenter of all time.
@@whatshisname3304 That was very nice of you to say. You earned a biscuit.
I just read the chapter "Mentalese" in his book The Language Instinct. Finding this video after a quick search has provided such an excellent complement to my reading. You gotta love UA-cam sometimes.
This is actually a book?
@@iiggyy33 It is. 🤣
the interviewer is actually pretty good
until that super weird ending o.O
He is also good in his interview with Rollo May. Well informed.
Such a great series.
damn bruh, small world
Pinker was a handsome guy. Quite a commitment to his hair too.
Right after this interview Steve threw on a black T and went straight to a SLAYER gig! \m/
Flattered I’m sure, but no...nothing a dash of white privilege and a dab of shampoo can’t conjure up. 🤙🤓
@Joseph Smith She never said or even implied he was not alive. She said and implied that when he was younger he was handsome. She may not think he is handsome now. How else could she say that?
he could still get it
call me, Steve
I keep coming back to this one. So good
Mishlove describing the usage of language as "the consequence of the accident that we were born with mouths instead of multi-media projection systems" is one fascinating observation.
This show is great, Jeffrey's questions are always right on point.
Look at the way Pinker's eyes constantly shift, it's as if his mind is always racing with brilliance that he's just waiting to articulate. He is a true genius I believe.
This is a side effect of amphetamines use.
I would certainly need a good synergistic mix of amphetamines to experience his thought processing power.. But than again, i would still be 2 libraries behind in knowledge.. like a 5.000 $ computer made for gaming that only has installed an early version of Tetris.
You're obviously no slouch!
He is not a genius and he is not saying anything revolutionary. He is actually an enemy of progress in the social sciences and humanities by his reductionist bias and crude materialism.
@@Andrew4Handel I wish you'd expand on your comment. I know Steven Pinker is friendly with Jeffrey Epstein. He's been to Lolita Island, same as Stephen Hawking.
Wow, wonderful... This interview puts into words, the thoughts I've had which I had no words for! SMILE Thank you for sharing!
looking forward to the next parts! Brilliant! I am learning German for the first time by living in Germany. I am really a duck out of water because I learned Spanish, growing up in the Southwest US. I have found that I agree that meanings and thoughts are more than words as life is a series of experiences that are the same regardless of the language or culture. Food is a GREAT place to start for someone learning a new language through immersion. I am now ceasing to translate to Engl.
Thinking without language is basically the definition of intuition.
What a happy lucky moment it was when I found "How the Mind Works", by Steven Pinker, at a Rockridge bookshop 25 years ago. My admiration for his persuasive arguments and vivid descriptions has only grown throughout the years. And I contend that book should attain similar status as "On the Origin of Species". Thanks for this.
A gem of a discussion. Thoughts before words...that's what I understood, as I write, without the spoken word. In this sense, words are vehicles for thoughts. But a point Professor Pinker touched on is that the more we specialise in an area of life, the more vocabulary we will have in order to reflect that area. In relation to meditation, the Indian civilization clearly specialised more in that human activity and therefore the various mediative states have been captured in language, with some sophistication, which is absent from most languages, including English. Even this conversation between Professor Pinker and Mr Mishlove will mean more to those who know a second language than those who are monoglots.
great to see new uploads! thinkingallowed rocks.
He is incredibly attractive
appearance, thoughts, the way he speaks and moves
Quite a stimulating conversation!
Wonderful look into the code of Language.
Thank you!! Wonderful!!
Thanks for posting. Hope I can find part 2!
It's only available as paid streaming content.
Love these guys,this show with such intriguing stuff. Thanks so much
I've always heard learning a language through immersion is a great way to do it! Perhaps because you put so many experiences together with words that you naturally just progress faster than any other way of learning a language. Great point, yo!
tbh once you have a lot people speaking that language around you, you just pick things up, personally i remember once learning french and being immersed in the language from school to the television, it’s all i heard. now contrast it with my second language Afrikaans, i was somewhat fluent in it before picking up french, and after i went back to my home country, i found i literally had to relearn a language i essentially grew up with alongside english.
as you can tell english is my first language but how is it that my Afrikaans essentially took a hit from learning another? maybe it’s because i haven’t uttered a word of it while abroad.
also note this all happened before i turned 12.. and i now somewhat struggle with just the french :) 🤣
Great content, cheers to you Mr. Mishove. I support you and your philosophy.
when was this recorded? incredibly interesting conversation
very important knowledge
Great episode!
EXCELLENT !!! ❤
What a genial Interview!
very interesting. thanks for uploading
can't hear Pinker for looking at him
A very intriguing concept.
At about 15:00 Pinker is speaking about the changes in consciousness which are accelerated by an increase in the complexity of understanding between individuals whom are interacting through conversation, due to a "feedback loop" which enables us to be "on the same page' so to speak. It increases bandwith and bitrate of data transfer. I wish to add that, since as individuals we are here on this plane that we might interact and thereby become better by that interaction, this dynamic pointed out by Pinker has the Force of True Essential Principle and may be used by effort of conscious willful application by the Adept. We are that very Consciousness, one but faceted into individual units of consciousness gifted with unique perspective through Sole Vantage. Sole vantage, soul vantage.....all the same thing and so no two people feel,, think, or act the same way. And it is The All which benefits by all interaction of its Members, even that which seems painful and pointless. An abiding love is always beneficial but it can raise painful awareness.
+ray gravitt the dude abides
I am pretty sure that what you refer to at about the 15:00 minute point is not "changes in consciousness" but changes in thoughts. I was listening closely for them to bring up consciousness and I did not hear it mentioned until the very end of the video. Just to be clear where I am coming from; I put it out that consciousness and thoughts are entirely distinct and that our being conscious is a much more profound mystery than our having thoughts.
Womb Man wow, you are correct, of course and the importance of making the distinction between thoughts and consciousness is a lesson I appreciate. Thank you. You have enriched my understanding. I may follow your channel in hope to pick up other knowledge from your playlists and liked videos.
It is an easy confusion to fall into. I am one of the rare individuals who can remember something of my life in the womb. The memory I have is of a life free of thoughts yet at the same time I was being super conscious.
And this is why people meditate, as it is a way to learn how to be conscious and not to think - to stop the mind. One could say, the more we think, the less conscious we are; or the more we are doing, the less we are being. If we observe the dream states, it shows us that thinking about what's going on is crucial for us to believe in its reality. This is what Shakespeare meant in his monologue 'All the world’s a stage'. When we start thinking we become the play's characters instead of its actors - our thoughts make this "reality" real for us. As we dwell into this world's problems our consciousness wanes and we are assured this is the reality. This is also the concept of Maya.
This looks like it should be good. Thanks!
great video.
I came to believe that all words are twice removed from the meaning we all have our separate agreement and experience related to the words and what makes it even more fascinating all these words chained together, creating language hopefully trying to express unexpressible.
Thanks
*I wish you had had Terence on specifically for this topic.*
It's fun to watch these two thinkers interact. I agree with Pinker's idea, largely. But there is a feedback loop, and both language and raw, non-linguistic thought inform and shape each other in turn. When someone says, "I know what I want to say, but I just can't put it into words", I would argue that they do not know what they want to say, or else they would already have the words to express it satisfactorily. I'd say that they probably have an idea about what it is they want to say, but that idea is still inchoate and vague, else they would be able to express it in words. This distinction turns on what we mean when we say we know something. To know it is not to merely have a feel for it, or to recognize it dimly, but it is to know it, to be able to name and describe it. And so, if we know what we want to say, then we can say it. When we are unable to easily articulate our thought and express it in words, we do not yet know it, although we may be coming to know it.
I disagree. Sometimes there are thoughts that manifest themselves in images, in sounds, in smells, in feelings. To give an example, perhaps if you asked Beethoven to explain in words all the ideas that he wrote on his staves, he couldn't do it immediately. He had the ideas but he had to give a second thought to translate them into words. The same can happen with other artists, even with writers who invent new words to represent ideas that do not yet have words associated with them.
Jeffrey, where our parts two through four? Will you please upload them?
Pickering allowed, and appreciated
How I love Mr
Mishlove......
I generally always watched New Thinking allowed. And this is my first Thinking Allowed broadcast - which was on TV first
Back in.,1993. I have always love this show
The Kenny G of Psycholo Gy.
Guy Deutscher wrote an interesting book on this subject called "Through the Language Glass." He gives a few examples of linguistic influence on thought.
Maybe our language is just a mirage, and the true meaning of our conversations is understood telepathically.
Very good 😊
Kudos Sir for reflecting on the annals of wisdom; never mind the source.
Smart guy.
If you could upload the other parts of the series, it would be great.
Pinker ,I have his books , he's well articulated well spoken.
I agree with you! As Canadians we are aware of our native population, although admittedly we might not do the best by them by the highest standards and goals of a society, but Toronto is as far Canadian (this year we've had no real winter) as you can get from the Inuit.
Infants in utero are accustom to hearing the cadence and tones of language even before they are born.
For some reason I am capable of remembering my thoughts; before I was able to talk! I’m not sure whether I am translating my thoughts into a language, or that I somehow knew a language all the while? For the longest time; I believed that everyone was able to do this, but I’ve since realized that it’s not the case!
As was discussed here, language isn't necessary for thought of memory, but
If you're saying you have a lot of memories at age 2, maybe 1, then yes that is quite uncommon. I hear there are studies looking at such people to help neuroscience. Maybe look into that, but it could also be a donate-your-corpse type study I'm not sure
Great interview. Very interesting. However were is the 2nd part ?? If there is no 2nd part yet when will it be released ??
Until this very moment, I haven't spotted a single 'next' video of such so-called series! It's a downright pity, I woefully imagine... :)
I think you have to pay for that. The link is in the description.
Try looking up "General Semantics". I've run into a few ideas in that area that have something to do with what I think you're talking about.
My goodness pinker is so young
INTERESANTE BUENAS TARDES
What would be better than this is to hear both arguments discussed at the same time. He is good with his counters because they are not being challenged. proponents of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis would offer far more alternatives.
Mr Pinker is so very attractive here and still is now with his greying hair.
Here he reminds me of the actor Jeremy Sisto (Law and order and many other movies)!
This information reminds me of Jung's idea of Archetypes which are meaning projected from a collective Unconsciousness. There must be some association in there somewhere the concepts are similar from my perspective.
things are shaped by language, and language acquires meaning when it is shared by others, so language, society, thought and things are intrinsically interrelated, because, if someone is living outside society, he will not need neither thinking nor speaking. he will just contemplate the world around him, and not understand it
thought shapes language and language shapes thought.
Interesting thought. But I think the concept transcends the words, and escapes the constraints of the "feedback loop". A sculptor who chisels the block of stone begins with an idea from his/her own mind. The idea doesn't emerge from the stone, but the person. So, even if the sculpture is imperfect, the viewer receives the idea as it more closely resembles the concept in perfection, much like Impressionism. But like you said, the concept in the stone is affected by the marks of the tools...
I think using feelings.
i feel you. feelings are, how we evoke our relation to a situation, our energy.
Kinda Primal. Harness yr Aura
Wittgenstein said "When I think in language, there aren't "meanings" going thru my mind in addition to the verbal expressions: the language is itself the vehicle of thought".
Turns out he was wrong.
Also, I think when he was speaking of "language" in general within the context of this talk, he was speaking specifically of Verbal Language and so the statement "Language is all those things he quoted in the first few minutes: visual images, sounds, associations, culture." is valid but not circumvention to Pinker's presentation--I am not sure if circumvention was your intention so forgive me if I misunderstood.
I thought this was some sort of comedy bit with rob Lowe but this is good
Why is there not shows like this on anymore
Pure essential thought is experienced as conceptional constructs powered by symbol, imagery, and an internal foundation of knowledge and principle which is managed using "a priori" register enabled mental formulations and functions. You may train these inherent processes.
uh......ok?
+Bill M I think I was high. I knew what I meant and barely understand my own comment. Thanks for reminding me of this. I quit smoking pot. Now I only drink coffee.
Ummmmmm....coffee.
i understand it. but im high right now soooo
+Maxim Calixte yes, not only that but I was also using words with occult definitions in mind; 'Essential' was one of them. It means, "derived directly from spirit". I had to quit the weed because being high does not jibe well with mysticism. I still study the occult and looking back I can't believe I ever wasted a moment of my life warping my consciousness on pot.
Cannot find part 2?
Where can I find the second part?
Words alter our perception of reality because they limit our perception by our understanding that is affected by the simplicity &/or complicity of personal &/or collective language.
how we define ourselves in relation to any situation, can limit us, or expand us, depending on, our definitions, how we relate to the situation.
If anyone knows where part 2 is please let me know. :-)
24:45 : )
:)!
2:02 Even in old days, newspapers had clickbait titles.
Hmmmm. "the sculpture is imperfect". Interesting. I guess I'm saying that we are not entirely separate from the stone. Thanks for a worthy reply.
watched
dat hair
I can easily picture him in the back of Waynes' car,
headbanging to the "Bohemian Rhapsody" guitar solo!
_Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me, for me, for meeeeee!!......_ \m/
So weird to see him without white hair.
I thought he was part of Led Zeppelin
1:50 what´s on that picture ?????
I wonder if he didn't get a stiff neck at some point from looking to his left the whole time.
***** No, HIS left. The viewer's right.
+Olaf Klischat Stage right?
+Lee Gee No the viewer's right as in entitlement.
Nah man, he got a *strong* neck - from all his leisure time headbanging! \m/
If you're interested in learning English. ..listen to this man which in my opinion has a rather extensive vocabulary and graspergrammar an a superbly command of syntax.
Pinker is eloquence personified.
Seems obvious to me that language is a feedback loop between meaning (concepts) and words (tools). When an artist sculpts a block of stone, the idea emerges - and is undoubtedly affected by the marks of the hammer and chisel.
This was before his flights on Lolita Express
Mr. MishLove, How I didn't recognize you.
I couldn't find the other parts
ThinkingAllowedTV in what year was this interview conducted? I need it for citation purposes. Thank you
+italotexano Book came out 1994 so I guess around then?
Well, is Steven not talking about tacit knowledge when he says that we have inherent language - the mentalese ? This term tacit knowledge was first used by Michael Polyani. Just like mentalese tacit knowledge cannot be used as conduit for conveying - but we need words to express our knowledge / thoughts in propositional terms. Hence, when we try to interpret the meaning of certain words in different languages ( different cultures embedded as watermarkscwithin) The meaning of words is modified -
What year was this recorded?
What year is this?
mishlove liberated by pinker hairstyle
The color red.
It seems like there's a connection between Terrence McKenna's DMT machine elfs and Pinker's "mentalese." As though the elfs represent language in its abstract non verbal form.
Isn't that the singer from that band Mr. Big ?!
If you've ever had a dream that should be proof enough that mental activity =/= language even though language can be part of a dream.
25:49 - what was Pinker going to say?
This intro was vapor wave before vapor wave
"That time has come the other walrus said." 24:44
I've only watched the first 5 minutes and I think the thing Pinker is ignoring is the fact that the question is not presupposing that thoughts are merely language, but that deep thoughts are caused by our capacity of language. Yes, thoughts are of all sorts, and not simply of language, or then again, something deeper than language, how can these thoughts be ordered in a way that we understand its relation with the One, if one is to use platonic metaphysics? Language is the way to stock thoughts in packages, that we call words, and use these easy-to-use words in order to create a combination of thoughts, to create a deeper thought. To create an understanding of an experience.
+Wambumbu Finish watching it, the narrator thought the same thing, but Mr. Pinker mentions that deep thought and language most likely evolved together, "like a feedback loop".
Max Hudson I would suggest the works by Terence McKenna.
***** I would have to say that our only difference seems to be our usage of the word language. When I use the term "language", I use it to mean a particular, or general, set of symbols that are available to you in order to transmit thoughts. It seems to me that you are using the term "language" to mean what I mean by "thought". There is no problem with this, but, in conversations, it is important to lay out these distinctions (of course, if you agree with it). I would say that Searle is not one of my favorite thinkers for the simple reason that he seemed to have misrepresented Hilary Putnam's view on what determines a word.
***** Don't take my answer too seriously. I feel as though I haven't actually touched what you said... sorry for that, but yes... once we have to deal with the mind, every little thing can become important in our understanding (whether correct of not) of the message we receive.
What year?