LET'S DEBATE: Is Medieval Fantasy Lazy? More Fantasy Food?
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- Опубліковано 29 жов 2020
- Let us debate some fantasy genre things about culture my dudes!!
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I resently read a quite good political fantasy called "the goblin emperor"
Has anyone else seen a lot of the same sponsors for multiple different youtubers? 😂
Hi Daniel. If you would like to read stories that stretch conventional boundaries and tropes and focus on non-human protagonists then I would refer you to read more web novels such as those found on Royal road or recommended on top web fiction. A lot of stuff on royal road is from budding authors and is naturally not up to the mark however there are some which are exceptionally great. In particular, I would strongly suggest you to read 'The Wandering Inn' which is an ongoing slice of life fantasy. It might end up becoming one of the best stories you have ever read.
React to attack on titan season 4 trailer PLEASE
12:42 Yes, thats because you are (apparently) hanging around booktubers a lot but not in the writer community on youtube. Or at least not as much as me (and the guy making the comment).
From my own watching experience i can say i've heared the advice to "try something more original than medival fantasy" a lot of times. Its kind of a common theme and indeed is inderectly or directly talked down too a lot (spacially in advice stufffor new writers/authors).
I never saw a problem with it, i'll admit since i saw it from a readers perstective as you did just now, but listenting to the Take you picked here i can see where hes getting at and that its kinda bad for younger/starting writers that cant depend or use their own culture or are told not to.
I love how trolls have evolved over the years. They carried clubs and sticks before, now they use keyboards.
Yet they've always stolen socks, but only the left ones.
@@carlwilliams9642 and they always ask for left handed footballs
@@carlwilliams9642 "Yeah, what's with that?" XD
And metric crescent wrenches.
They at least still live underground.
Daniel: "Main character of my book murders children..."
Anakin Skywalker: "Where can I pre order this Masterpiece?"
Anyone else getting mini-Shadow of the Conqueror Daylen vibes?
@ I'm just wondering how Daniel is getting away with writing a book about Anakin Skywalker
It cannot be pre-ordered from a Jedi...
But would it even get granted the rank of masterpiece?
@@owlsmirror1726 What? How can you say this?! This is outrageous! It's unfair! How can there be a child murderer on the book and not be called masterpiece?!
So I'm a Medieval Historian and this always gets me. The quintessential idea of medieval always seems to be 13th century England and that is so reductive and infuriating. The medieval era spans from the 7th century through to the 15th in Europe, and the sheer expanse of what that means varies wildly from culture to culture. There are huge flashpoint crisis that could inspire swaths of great fantasy works if people were a little more willing to climb out of this limited perception of the medieval; this going with the assumption that you don't want to breakaway and into the ancient or the modern. What is feudalism? Religious conversion? Migration? Famine? Plague? Cultural identity crisis? Technological upsurge? Transference? Social reform? Sexual Identity? Dynastic struggle? Conquest? Conceptual reform? Fashion? Food? Racism? Gender? How are resources gained or lost? What are those resources, and are they unique? How are they used? Architecture? What are the stories that bind groups together and give them a sense of joint identity? Inspiration can come from anywhere and anytime, Eurocentric or not.
Your comment should get more likes...
And even if they are using 13th century England as inspiration, they so often dumb it down and get it wrong. For my story I am drawing inspiration from roughly 1250-1300, but not only Europe, but Japan, China, Persia, and the Middle East. For that though, I am doing vast amounts of research. One of my favorite books that I read was "Life in a Medieval Castle." I have those Stephen Biesty picture books to see the colors and details of medieval castles and cities. People just need to do research, and they will discover far more than what they thought they could find
Alright I keep hearing this but no one gives examples. Besides books literally set in England and books using English history, give examples of how fantasy is defaulting to this 13th century English setting. Because seriously how is Sanderson's stuff 13th century English, or the Belgaraid, Shannara, Lord of the Isles, Elric of Melnibone, the Chronicles of Amber, WOT, or even the LOTR. ASOIAF or feels tangentially English and that's all I got besides literal English Fantasy like the Dragon and the George.
@@robertblume2951 Between the 12th to15th century, with a large focus on the 13th due to a multitude of factors, a wealth of literature is composed and distributed across western Europe based upon the 'Chivalric' ideal. I am vastly simplifying this as many papers can and have been written on the subject and it would take far longer to break it down then would be advisable in this setting. Essentially these works get written by a multitude of people from varying walks of life but largely monks due to ready access to source material, literacy and writing ability, and resources. They focus in on the ideals of romance, chivalry, warfare, etc. As you might imagine these ideals are pretty far from realistic due to the distance from the real thing the authors were. These works enjoyed vast acclaim and exhibited great influence on generations across the period. Imagine if you will that instead of music, movies, cartoons, tv, etc. the only source of entertainment that you have is these stories in varying formats and languages. I cannot possibly understate how influential they were on every facet of life in western Europe. These works are eventually organized into compendiums and also filter their way into historical chronicles and become treated as fact.
Fast-forward now to the Industrial Revolution. The birth of new nations, with new ideas, popular access to literacy, etc. encourage a boom the transference of an ideal. The changes coming so drastically and in many ways so rapidly encourage social upheaval and identity crises. The upper and emerging middle classes therefore begin to look toward the ideal of the 'old world' in order to address this question of identity. As a result the many works, in their many iterations and translations, are unearthed. We see hundreds of new version, translations, and inspired works that litter the west with an even more idealized picture of the past; the medieval becomes a romantic fixture in the hearts and minds of many. Old words and ideas are taken out and polished, before being set upon the proverbial mantle piece of every home in the western Europe., and soon spreading beyond.
Its not until the modern age that historians begin to really pick apart the truth from the ideal. The Middle Ages are wonderfully muddled mess and cannot possibly be summarized in such simple terms as a single geographical area or generational period. But the idea of them, as a freeze-framed painting of the feudal, castle riddled, knightly, swords and suits landscape has become entrenched in the popular mind.
These works may not be as overt in their medievalism as some others but the truth remains that much of the their interpretation of the ideals, concepts, and ideas are largely based upon this entrenched perception.
That is perhaps the most succinct that I can put it. For reference, my specialty within Medieval studies is quite literally the study of historic literature, so you might say that this is my bailiwick.
@@VicRibeiro777 Thank you, that's kind of you to say.
The commenter "I study ancient history like babylon"
Daniel "Puts cavemen in the background"
I WANT TO GO BACK MARTY!
That was my question, i was also quite baffled
@@grendelentertainment9642 Do you have any book recommendations on babylon? (fiction/fantasy or nonfiction, anything basically)
@@TheNinjaDwarfBiker the bible is probably the best fiction work when it comes to babylon. (it's a joke, dont kill me) the best non fiction is probably paul kriwacziek with his book "babylon"
@@TheNinjaDwarfBiker If you're interested in Babylonian mythology/poetry, a good place to start would be to read Gilgamesh in Andrew George's translation. After that, there's an amazing collection of Akkadian literature called "Before the Muses" that's basically an anthology of all the major texts of Babylonian literature (and many of the minor ones) in it, I would suggest reading "Atrahasis", "The Poem of the Righteous Sufferer", "The Epic of Creation (Enuma Elish") and most of all "Erra and Ishum", a myth about the god of death and destruction almost destroying the world because he has an inferiority complex. As for general surveys, it gets a bit tricky. There aren't a lot of good surveys for non-specialists because Assyriologists are terrible at marketing their discipline. There is one on art, though - "Mesopotamian Art and Architecture" by Zaynab Bahrani.
Daniel wants a book about goblins? Then he wants a book about himself.
Re:Monster...
Greene Daniel is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
Have you ever read Great Swedish Fariy Tales by John Bauer. The book now a days would be concidered more for children but it was a major influence on very early fantasy. To the point where it was a large inspirtion to both Tolkien and Early Disney (Snow White specifically). But tons of goblins and trolls.
Representation matters!
There is an online series called Iron Teeth which is actually a really good book/series?? about a Goblin.Its actually a pretty fun read tbh.
Unpopular oponion: We don't even have "proper" Medieval fantasy. Most what labelled as such is simply an early modern England/France setting with some Holywood dark age aesthetic and knights. Medieval Europe, especially the regions outside of England/ France/ West Germany, is nit a common setting.
@Greyfoot Yodel I know, and I'm sayying that most of the time they miss the point so much that it isn't remotedly medieval.....
Very true, playing Kingdom Come Deliverance honestly felt to me like a fantasy game simply because an actually accurate depiction of medevil Europe is unique and different than what usually is shown in media.
I was looking for a comment like this!
I also would like to add that despite European countries share a few cultural things in similar, history played differently on those times. Medieval Era in southern and eastern Europe played differently from Northern Europe. It's just a bit upsetting that most people assume that every European country in medieval era was the same as France or England.
there goes my dreams I would love some feudalism and dynastic struggles because good lord did I have fun with ck3, not sure about early modern england thing it kinda depends
Daniel: More food in your writing.
* GRRM has entered the chat *
I agree
*eats spicy food because they're a man*
@@stviz87 did you pick one from the menu of did you have a woman read it out for you like a real Alethi man ?
@@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547 of course. And I don't read, I listen to the audio books haha
Have some chouta!
More pie, Lord Frey? 8B
The Disheveled Goblin never seems to disappoint
Learn to spell
@@matthewjury4385 who cares?
Why I don't like food in books:
Imagine you are reading and then they talk about food and you go "I want food now, too" but then you realize your fridge is again empty because you have been a lazy ass
I do this with tv and anime all the time. Guy in anime is eating ramen, I pause it and go get ramen lol
I think that most of these posts just want more books with tolkien/robert jordan levels of worldbuilding
Everyone wants more books with Tolkien/Jordan level of Worldbuilding
who doesn't want to build out their written world that much? just have to keep remembering that such levels of world building take bloody ages
also remembering tolkien was still sorting his world's details up to his death(origin of the orcs anybody? also origin of hobbits, he never got to that one)
@@prcervi Yup. We should also add that Tolkien's worldbuilding was hugely informed by the fact that he was a successful professor whose professional expertise was in relevant areas.
Should more professors write fantasy...? I can only imagine that would mostly go badly lol.
i guess, fantasy is all about what you want in a world, instead of what it needs.
I love the idea of pre-historic fantasy, and have even begun working on my own story. The problem I've come across is fantasy likes the deep lore, the Ancients who reigned then fell. What do you if the world you are writing is the ancients? They are discovering magic for the first time, they are talking to the gods, and their national history only goes back to their great-great-great-grandfather? A groundbreaking author will overcome these questions, but for others who don't want to flex that muscle of world building, starting in a medieval or early modern world allows them to work on other worldbuilding points
In case your are wondering there are people out there (such as me) would like to read a story of a time when gods and Legends walked the earth.
Well, people don't just pop out of nowhere. You could talk about creation myths, migrations from other lands, even how they evolved from monkeys if they had some sort of genetic memory. Though it's a concurrent point of contestion even in the scientific community whether humans actually evolved from monkeys or if they were always separate species that evolved side by side.
When I was a kid in school, it was thought that the human species is only a few million years old but new evidence suggests that humans have been a separate species for way longer. I saw 8 million years somewhere.
Back to the point after that tangent, the ancients can their very own ancients and in every conceivable case you can't really rule out that they didn't even if they were never really talked about.
Watch primal. It it is a prehistoric fantasy and its fantastic.
You can do both. Conan and Krull by Robert Howard are set in a prehistoric world that has an even further back lost age. Its actually a trope of sword and sorcery and its kin like sword and sandal.
I would look into the late Bronze Age collapse for inspiration. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse
Keep in mind that "ancient times" was a very long time period. Just think about the fact that Cleopatra was born closer to the moon landing than the building of the great pyramids
Most of these aren’t hot takes dammit! They’ve just cool ideas that most people would agree with. The actual hot takes (I saw one where someone claimed Hard magic systems don’t exist or something along those line) get buried by these essentially comments on things to add while worldbuilding.
Honestly, the biggest well of non-human fantasy is in middle grade. You get fantasy races too, but u also get animal perspectives, which can super interesting and really good 4 escapism. One of my fav mg books of all time is silverwing, it's about bats, and like two humans are mentioned in passing. It slaps.
One of my favourite series when I was younger.
Kenneth Oppel is honestly my favourite childhood author.
Just thinking about those books is making me feel things, those books are superb.
@@hoominbeeing Same. Airborn gave me a lifetime love of steampunk
The Warriors series - all cats, all the time.
I would like fewer snarky postmodern protagonists. People in the past had a different culture to our own, they believed things that we no longer do. I would like to see characters who reflect the beliefs of their culture. Another thing is that in many fantasy world things like fashion and technology are seemingly static for centuries. But if we look at history that is rarely if ever the case.
Short stories are so underappreciated. I just finished Ken Liu's short story collection , The Paper Menagerie', and I was blown away. The amount of creativity that went into those stories blew me away. Read more short stories!
Short stories are really where the modern fantasy genre germinated, where they were a mainstay of the pulp magazines. It's strange that so much of fantasy has become long series of very long books.
It's a wonderful collection. The title story made me cry.
About the goblin book: It's not quite a 'book', but there's a webcomic called Goblins about a group of goblins who decide to become adventurers. The setting is based on D&D btw.
There is also" the Goblin emperor" which I read earlier this year, I really liked it, it's unique and has interesting writing style, though not the most eventful.
"The Iron Teeth." Can't recommend it enough.
The Goblin Quest series by Jim C. Hines is another one!
Daniel: I don't like following Jorg Ancrath from Prince of Thorns. He's a bad person.
Also Daniel: My Protagonist kills kids.
I can clarify the whole "Medieval Fantasy is Lazy" thing. When you're submitting to publishers and agents, there are many specifically requesting stuff that is NOT "Medieval Fantasy," (or saying they would like something other than Medieval Fantasy). This can be interpreted to mean that nobody wants it. I can easily see where "Duke of Denver" gets this notion.
And, frankly, I don't get how one distinguishes Medieval and non-Medieval and/or Western-based Fantasy. Every culture has defensive wall, walled cities, fortifications, warriors, sacred orders, kings, lords, queens, princesses, princes, merchants, farmers, cults, gods, swords, spears, dark lords, arrows, pointed sticks, and so on, and so on. Anything that isn't a throwback to the past is defined as "Urban Fantasy," or "Magical Realism," or some other definition du jour. So, unless it is a take on names or locations, I'm really not sure where the dividing line is.
Some of the stuff, especially as it revolves around magic, is antithetical to any culture that I know of. When it's placed in a physical world other than our own, it gets further and further from that definition.
I think the issue is that there is still a heavy reliance on Norse, Germanic, and Celtic mythos. But even in them, you have commonalities between them and far-eastern cultures. After all, it was the Vikings that pushed deep into Russia, integrating with many Eastern cultures. So there it a flow of culture and tradition, especially among the nomadic tribes of that area. Likewise, when you look deeply into, say, Roman and Greek gods, you'll find that many academics believe these evolved out of far distant Middle Eastern cultures.
I tend to write stuff that is inspired by from Norse, Greek, Middle Eastern, African, and even Aboriginal American cultures. But the way it is blended, you'd probably never know that. Nonetheless, it would be labeled as "Medieval" or "Western" Fantasy. People gotta slap a label on it, so they can define it. it is what it is.
Nailed it like the Romans. People say they want "non-medieval fantasy" and tend to upvote anything labeled as such to high heaven. But when I read it all I see is reskinned traditional fantasy - still way too obsessed with royal lineage and (effectively) chosen ones using the weapon du jour to save the blank. Or a revenge story set in roughly the same backdrop. Swapping the names of characters, places, gods, McGuffins, and a few cultural/religious traditions does not change much of substance to me.
I think the dude went off too far with "muh European heritage is threatened by diversity" vibe, by claiming Tolkien's LOTR culture is his heritage, when in reality, it draws from Nordic/Viking cultures which are small part of European culture. Witcher is popular and draws from Slavic mythos. You can have your story set in Byzantine empire, or Spain, or Austro-Hungarian Empire, or ancient Greece, Crete or Rome, or Celtic cultures.
Id really like one based on the sinosphere of influence ie Japan southeast asia although that gets weaker as one goes deeper and central asia, the geopolitics of india could be nice too but im unfamiliar with it
@@abyrupus that's the vibe I got too. If there are the same number of European fantasy books, but ALSO a bunch of Asian, African, whatever inspired fantasy, then... Erm, "certain people" will be all outraged that their "culture is canceled", or whatever dumb victim culture nonsense they pull out.
I haven't done the math, but I see PLENTY of European fantasy. I don't think we're at risk of running out..
Someone watches Ethan Becker;)
I think one of the most surreal experiences on UA-cam is seeing an immensely famous UA-camr comment on another, modestly famous but totally unrelated UA-camr's channel and having that comment somehow only get a handful likes compared to the thousands of likes any of his videos get in under an hour. Man, I love the internet.
Oh look jazza
JAZZA!?!?
JAZZA
*gasp* Jazza knows about booktube. I love this.
Sorry to be pedantic (no I'm not, I love being pedantic) but those river civilisations aren't necessarily pre-historic. Pre-history is defined as the time before written language, and places like Egypt and Mesopotamia had written language.
While the Indus river civilization did indeed have a script, and language it is to this day still undeciphered. So from our modern perspective it can possibly be considered prehistoric.
Also if you really want a prehistoric setting it wouldn't feature any real civilizations at all.
@@ducovanderwoude6971 I was going to specifically mention the industry valley civilisation funnily enough - as far as I understand it, archaeologists still aren't sure if the symbols associated with the early civilisation are a written language or are simple pictograms. In any case, most of the civilosations on the map which Daniel flashed up weren't technically prehistoric. Doesn't really bother me, I just like being a pedant :D
Also though I'd disagree with your last point, we certainly had civilisation before writing systems developed - writing partly came about as a means of making life in those civilisations easier to organise. There's no reason why there couldn't be a fantasy based in a prehistoric (ie pre-writing) civilisation, and still be filled with fascinating world building.
@@monkeymox2544 pretty sure Mesopotamia and also possibly Egypt existed before they had written languages.
@@JamesM1994 That's why I said they aren't necessarily pre-historic :P
@@monkeymox2544 :P
Medival fantasy is only boring if the author makes it boring. (The same with basically every trope)
I tried to put more food in my writing, but the soup keeps breaking my keyboard.
Lol
Amateur. That's why you use bread instead!
I thought the giant poster thing was just gonna have "GO F*CKING VOTE THEN" in block capitals
I feel like Daniel is getting progressively closer to just shouting “I’d buy that for a dollar” with every ad spot.
The Malazan books covers so many of these! Makes me appreciate them even more. 🙃
I want to see more tropical environments in Fantasy. Its usually mountains and forests and if they want exotic they go for deserts or extreme cold environment. lush rainforests and tropical white beaches with blue water should be discovered more in fantasy
Agreed. But I belive most authors live in a region where they experience the four seasons, so that's why you see a lack of tropical environments.
I love classical fantasy races. FYI: I have written stories with elves as the main characters.
Side note: I actually have seen some booktubers and writer's hub actually telling writers to stop writing medieval Western European fantasy.
Nobody gonna talk about my man breaking out his arts and crafts gear for a "Chill dude"?
Man, you gotta respect that commitment.
Honestly killed me. Havent laughed this hard all week, and I paused the video to come look for the comments dieing over that moment. So stinking funny.
"humans are over used"
I wonder why
When u said, "Wheel of time wants to talk to you," was so savage lols
Ya know Daniel...you have never once looked disheveled on a video.
As a spirit driving a meat suit I can't comment on the goblin part.
The funniest thing about the last point is that both The Hobbit and LotR are from the perspective of hobbits and they are the most important fantasy books ever written.
"More food in fantasy." Have you never read japanese fantasy light novels? THERE'S PRACTICALLY NOTHING BUT FOOD!!!!!
I have seen people on Book Twitter say that we need to move on from mediaval European fantasy and that it's lazy. I don't think it's a majority opinion, but there are people who want to be done with it, because Twitter gets a little extreme sometimes.
I feel like people talk about a character being “relatable” way too often. I don’t relate in any way to some of my favorite characters. Relatability has nothing to do with how much someone should enjoy a character
Agreed. I feel that this is more of a trend that's under vogue for the time being.
@@quintustheophilus9550 like Jaime Lannister
I'd love to see a fantasy series where we see where magic has forced technology to progress. Like only some people can use magic in warfare, so they invent new weapons to counter magic
Goblin book: Iron Teeth by Scott Straughan
.
Also the Jig the Goblin series (trilogy?) by Jim C. Hines
Heh, just mentioned this. Didn't know someone else had.
There are actually a lot of fantasy books that are for example called "The Dwarves" where its all about dwarves and the dwarven protagonist. The same with "The Elfs" "The Albae (Darkelfs)" "The Orks" "The Goblins" or even "The Sorcerer" etc.
For a moment I was actually suprised that this seems to be not know, but then I realized that this trend seems to be very much a german thing (where I am from) so maybe its just not as popular in the USA as here.
Names to look for are Markus Heitz, Bernhard Hennen, Michael Peinkoffer and once you are in this rabbithole you'll find your fair share of non-human-centric fantaysy novels. And most of them are pretty solid. Hope there are good translations though.
I've seen some of Markus Heitz's books, did not know they were translated.
I'll be honest, I'm very wary of translated works, it is never as good as the originals...
You know, this actually reminds me of the French comic books published by Soleil. You have a comic book focusing on Dwarves, Elves, Orcs and Goblins. Not a lot of humans though and they really go in deep on the cultures of each race.
The Dwarves is on my reading list, I know you're speaking from the German side but do you know if the english translation is any good?
@@the_corvid97 sadly no. :(
@@the_corvid97 wait what I meant with "no" was that I don't know. But its absolutely possible.
The anti-medieval fantasy person is wrong, there is too much late medieval fantasy, the early medieval period gets really weird really fast and would probably qualify as a unique setting, but mid-late medieval period, yes he hit it on the head.
My thoughts exactly.
Oh my god, I was featured on the discussion!!! The goblin host had a discussion about my subject and he totally agreed with me!!!
A lot of the things that people want here may well have been in the first drafts of many novels but would have been cut in the first editing session. Worldbuilding, while important, is always tangential to plot and character. Including lots of extraneous details that don't have any real influence on anything that happens, such as food, music, or niche cultural details would be cut, and even could be a red flag for agents and editors alike when it comes to inexperienced writers.
That is true, so wouldn't it b interesting for popular books be reprinted with the oringanl/pre edited. That way fans can see what was taken out and know how worse it can be.
Second there are other ways to bring food and music into books if done right. Ann Mcaffery had done this great. There was a cookbook and soundtracks for the series of Dragonrider of Pern.
Tui T Sutherland's Wings of Fire series has multiple dragon races fighting against each other, and even tho there is a human race here and there, in the books I've read, they rarely happen to appear.
Katherine Addison's The Goblin Emperor is a mainly elf book with a half-goblin protagonist suddenly becoming an heir to the throne! (I might have messed up what the races are called, I've read this book translated).
loved the Goblin Emperor!
Wings of fire are amazing!
(You might like the Guardian Herd series by Jennifer Lynn Alvarez)
Pre-Historic
Daniel: There's no history to be pulled from there.
Me: Exactly.
Check out the Doom Brigade by Margaret Weis. It's set in Dragonlance and follows the last Draconians as they try to survive after their side lost a war.
I recommend the Tales of the Rakusa by Martha Wells if you liked that. Similar race and similar story of rebuilding a society after a devastation.
Oooh, I absolutely hear people call European inspired fantasy called lazy! Or, if not lazy, then clichéd and uncreative. I totally disagree, but I do hear it.
Also, the comment about the food in fantasy gave me some happy flashbacks to trying to find Redwall foods in real life back when I was first reading those!
I suspect those same people also have strong views about western history. It's become very fashionable in many quarters to simply be 'over' what they call 'Eurocentrism'. It's annoying and ignorant, but I suspect that's the reason you are hearing that.
I remember those days too! I was so obsessed with the food served in Redwall Abbey that I found a Redwall Cookbook on Amazon years ago and still have it to this day.
So a point about history being flexible to the people of the past. There was a whole scholarly movement in the Renaissance that involved recontextualizing history to make it fit with the desired models of thought. There is even the old Socratic dialogues which take “historic” or more often mythological events and argue new interpretations of them. Even so much as make up whole new stories about that history. A concept that survived to Shakespeare’s historic plays and even modern historic dramas.
Not getting into the medieval period’s artistic display of historic events happening in then modern clothing and attire. Which they knew very well was inaccurate.
Needless to say, the idea that history has some fluidity is an old one. Hell I think Thucydides even alludes to it.
I am actually so excited for your book and this Halloween short film
I have a backburner idea for an epic-ish story that would run through the Paleolithic, and Neolithic eras, then conclude in the Bronze Age in a secondary Middle East/Mediterranean-like area. I also think there is room to explore other facets and cultures of the European Medieval world that are typically ignored. It would be interesting to read a story where the conflict is told from a Lithuanian-like people who are fighting off incursions from Teutonic Knight/Hanseatic League inspired enemies. Or maybe something that reflects Finno-Ugaric cultures.
Fantasy where the existence of magic leads to a differentiation of how tech progresses, hmm, yu kind of get that in Steph Swainson's books. Also, read Steph Swainson, her stuff is amazing.
You were asking about a series where magic replaces technology - the Foundyside series by Robert Jackson Bennett does just that. In fact magic is basically programming, and as a programmer, I found that he did a pretty good job with the programming culture. RJB is one of the better younger SFF authors, you really should be up on his work. Start with City of Stairs - that's a fantastic book and the trilogy it begins is very consistently good.
Santiago Posteguillo is a Spanish Historical Fiction author, he focuses on the Roman times and he writes a lot about the foods and a bit about the music. Amazing books btw
I've heard the "european medieval fantasy" is lazy argument before. And to some extent I can see that, mainly when it comes to just the esthetics as a lot of writers use it as a backdrop without anythought of how it would fit in the world they made. Then there are those who pull a Disney and mix from 11th century to the 1920, not understanding the technological advances there have been through those centuries and how it effects culture within and without a country (one gripe I have with WoT).
But as with all writing, it's as lazy as you write it. European medieval fantasy is oversaturated is all.
No humans dragon story: Wings of Fire
Earlier human civilization: The Legends of ther First Empire prequel series to Ryiria Revelations (read Ryiria first!)
Came here to mention First Empire.
For a book without humans with a pretty original fantasy race, try The Cloud Roads (book 1 of The Books of the Raksura) by Martha Wells. It has some of the strongest worldbuilding of any story I know of. Martha Wells is, of course, the author of the brilliant Murderbot series. Also, NK Jemisin recommends it on Goodreads for 'fantasy lovers tired of the usual' so there you go.
You need a big boost here. This is a great series that has no humans and a huge world full of non standard fantasy races.
There is polish book of stories by Stanisław Lem where characters are robots. It is called "Fables for Robots" (PL "Bajki Robotów"), and in my opinion it is worth reading. I would say that it is in between SF and fantasy.
For the Magic mixed with technology thing, you should check out Ilona Andrews' Kate Daniels series. It's a modern day world where magic has been missing for hundreds of years so they progressed technologically, but now magic is coming back in waves and getting stronger. So with the world building they have electricity when the tech is "on", but when the magic wave comes their lights go out and the magic filled 'fey lights' come "on". And like some people have cars, though they don't run during magic, some people have special magic cars, though they don't run through tech, and really rich people have hybrid cars that can run through both, but most people have decided just to use horses.
It's really interesting and I like how the magic and technology play into each other.
I am writing a non human fantasy and it has always been something i worried people wouldn,t take seriously . Hearing your opinion really helped,thanks.
Chances are your audience migth be a little smaller, but I love different takes. I admit, it's more a distraction in Science Fiction, but I love to see it in Fantasy as well.
I always enjoy seeing these videos and all the different takes. My book has war refugees and culture clashes (seen from each perspective), so it gives me hope there's a market out there. Convincing an agent is the difficult part though, their tastes are quite particular.
Hey Daniel, I just wanted to say that I'm so happy and proud of how fast you've been growing! You make awesome content, and it's really cool to see how much you've grown in subscribers and in the quality of your content over the past year. Keep being awesome.
YES FOOD!
One of my biggest contentions about The Final Empire (a book I LOVE) was when it was just like “Vin ordered food, she ate her food.”
AND WHAT DID SHE EAT BRANDON!?
It was especially bad as I had just finished reading TLOLL and Scott Lynch describes food REALLY REALLY well!
*+edward layer* Yes, totally agree! It should be somewhat easy to do too. There are tons of places to find some real and 'different' medieval(ish) foods, recipies etc. out there. Like Townsends, ua-cam.com/channels/xr2d4As312LulcajAkKJYw.html
In the Stormlight Archives he does go into a bit of cuisine's, particularly the Hardazian's. I wonder if that's something he learnt from Mistborn because I can't think of a single instance of a particular food being mentioned. It seems an even bigger shame in hindsight as it was based on French culture which has such a rich history with food.
@@GracodanaAlpha there is one mention near the end of The Final Empire which makes things even more confusing because why hadn’t he done it before then? But the amount of grand balls Vin went to I wanted to know!!! But The Final Empire is the only Sanderson I have read so far so fingers crossed 🤞🏻
There is a good website called Inn at the Crossroads that has loads of fantasy recipes. The amount from The Gentleman Bastard sequence is insane.
I remember the baywraps, and various noble feasts had well described food (I think Cett is specifically noted to have chosen chicken drumsticks in heavy gravy as a power play because he's forcing people to eat in a messy way)
if anything medieval fantasy (when done well) requires more work to write than many other genres. Reason being that you have to explain so many aspects of a world people aren’t already familiar with in a way that doesnt come across “info-dumpy” whereas a modern or futuristic fantasy will have an easier time building upon the common knowledge of the reader.
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Can we get a shirt with that chill dude poster on it? That was amazing!
The level of sass in that bit
This was really beneficial on getting my mental juices flowing on the subject of culture. Thanks a million. As a writer whose had a rough time of actually getting himself to write, this was inspirational.
Sorry Daniel but you made a bit of misinformation about the stabbing in the medieval times.
Stabbing someone *was* a problem such a problem because it could lead to family feuds by ancient germanic laws, even under the Königsfriede (under the peace of the king), in the churches and tribunals (yes there were tribunals) and it was such a problem that in 1235 Friedrich II tried to make the holy roman empire Landsfriede, and this problem persisted even for the church with the tregua Domini, tregua pacis Dei, that tried to keep peace between families for four holy days in a week. So yes it was a problem getting stabbed in medieval times.
And we could also talk about Maximilian I during the Worm's Diet, but I would be too preachy nitpicky.
Sorry to be a bother, you are a great youtuber, but I think it is important, considering a lot of person like to be extremely attached to """"realism in fantasy"""".
(sorry for the bad english, I am not used to face such complex issues in your language.)
One of the Witcher books is literally a journey of a bunch of refugees.
Hey, just wanted to thank you. You mentioned Bobiverse a few videos back. I'd never heard of it, but I picked up a copy. I freaking love it! Good call.
A really good Orc centered fantasy is out Called The Grey Bastards-There are humans in there but the main character is half-orc and the rest of the main characters are either half or full as well. I haven’t read the whole thing yet, but I loved the first half of it that I did read.
Prehistoric animals as monsters in stories. Give me a story with a dinohyus. Or a icthyosaur. Even a megatherium. Look 'em up. You're welcome.
Rahan
Massively popular comic book in france its home country with a cave man mac gyver with sometimes dinosaurs, mammoths, sabertooth and whatnot, about a dude wandering wherever luck guides him and fixing stuff, discovering things peoples and culture or straight up surviving. All according to his deceased adoptive father's memory and ethics. Awesome art and stories.
@@pougetguillaume4632 See, this is one of those things I never would have conceived of as a possibility, but now I am so glad it exists!
You got a link?
@@AnonymousOnimous bloody heck while browsing to find anything to give you i came across... NOTHING. Dutch translations maybe and that's it. There doesn't seem to be an english translation which is outrageous
This is everything i found and even then it's in french... so if you don't mind google translate and typing (which seems to be working pretty good in french) go for it, the art is awesome and only gets better, the stories are really great too. well google translate won't work when they start speaking like cave men like "baghaé" (panther, not a real word), "wampas" (bats), "petit d'homme" (small of man? It's used instead of children) or when they call things descriptively (mammoth are called "longues dents" (long tooth) it might cause some misunderstandings...)
archive.org/details/bdfrrahant08letresordebelestaed.lecureux/001%20-%20Le%20Secret%20de%20Soleil
You might find better luck asking librarian or whatnot because the internet seems to be empty ;-;
@@pougetguillaume4632 I'll try reading it with the liiiittle French I got.
@@AnonymousOnimous good luck, there are ~200 issues of 20-40 pages, glad i could help you discover something. it sucks so bad it was never translated...
As for technology being influenced by Magic systems, Shadow of The Conqueror actually has a good take on this. Dark Stone powers engines and airships, and Lightbringers provides healing that we could not even conceive of today. This results in them having a very poor understanding of medicine and chemistry.
The Age of Fire is a great series with all of the main characters being dragons, and was my first fantasy series. Written by E.E. Knight, the first book is Dragon Champion I believe.
A great comic by an Indian author is The Devourers by Indra Das which has truly monstrous werewolves.
As for goblins, check out Jim C Hines' book series called Goblins.
This reminds me of ppl complaining that SPOILER I guess: in the Lies of Locke Lamora, when Locke hits an old lady in the face... I mean it made sense in that moment for the character and in this world PLUS the old Lady stabbed him first xD I mean I wouldn't do that in real world but it's a story xD
Once again, japanese fantasy comes trough for many of the topics told here: inmigrants, wars, not human protagonists, etc...
Looking forward to this book you are writing.
Binge watching Dan's content is like watching a man descent into madness and it's the most entertaining thing on UA-cam.
Love your stuff Dan
Have you read/watched Fullmetal Alchemist? I feel like you would really enjoy it. I consider it to be one of the best fantasy series I have experienced personally.
Note: There are 2 shows, both are good. But due to it being an adaptation, the first series deviates from the source material and has a separate ending(which, in some ways, I actually prefer to the original version). And, frustratingly enough, the remake(that is a wholly faithful adaptation) is written for people who've seen the first show, and so Brotherhood(remake) reveals a plot point in the first episode that none of the characters actually know about until almost halfway through.
End point... probably just read the books.
@Julian Nixon I agree that FMA answers the differences in technology and magic. Have you read the D.Gray-man series?
@@georgehumphrey1826 Need to finish. Started years ago, never finished. Can't even really remember where I left off. I know Allen had his sword, Crystal types had been introduced... Vaguely recall Allen's Synch rate going over 100. Know about him being the 13th. Sort of. That's as far as I remember, at least.
@@juliannixon9734 Ah ok, just curious since you mentioned FMA. I know D.Gray-man isn't exactly the same as FMA, but I get similar vibes (if this makes any sense at all lol). I only started last year and haven't fully caught up. I do need to read FMA. I've only seen the anime adaptations.
People so often just watch FMAB without even trying fma 2003 and it breaks my heart because they're really ruining some major early plot points for themselves
Plus they're also missing out on some really symbolically interesting lighting and art choices plus one of the best OSTs to ever exist in anime
@@justanotheryoutubecommente2 I can see that. I've seen a good bit of FMA 2003, but it's been a while. I haven't seen the ending of it or the OST. So I'll that to my rewatch. I would like to highlight that I was happy to see them bring back those same voice actors from the FMA 2003 to FMAB.
There was one early episode from FMA 2003 that I was sad to not see in FMAB,. I'm unsure if it was a filler episode.
14:34 Daniel, play Spyro the Dragon. It’s awesome.
Recommendation for anyone looking for Ancient/Prehistoric fantasy. "The People of..." books by Kathleen O'Neal Gear and W. Michael Gear. They are both archaeologists writing fictional stories based on their actual archaeological studies and findings. There are dozens of books to pick from, all outstanding. They may not fall, officially, into the Fantasy category but as a Fantasy fan for over 35 years, yes I read The Eye of the World before The Great Hunt was published, I can vouch for the fact that they are still well worth the time.
Still I fully agree it would be awesome to see this kind of theme carried to the next level as Fantasy.
If you like food in your fantasy, read the Jhereg books. The author has even released recipes from the books so you can cook along.
Can we get some hype in the comments for the Halloween special?
Can't wait!
To Duke of Denver's take, I think what he means is that it sucks hearing all the time from readers, UA-camrs (yourself included), say "Medieval fantasy is played out." in one way or another. I can understand how it's discouraging.
I'm going to pull a race card real quick on a perhaps hot subject, but in America, some loud people are gatekeeping cultures these days. So for a white author, it can FEEL difficult to want to pull from different cultures without being called something negative, or hell, even called racist like GRRM had been himself for whatever reason (google it, there's an interview where he's accused of racism and sexism, what?!). You get the narrative of "leave it to the native race to write their culture." So it's like "I'm a white person, if I'm going to get backlash writing Asian culture, I'll play it safe and stick to northern/western Europe so I don't get accused of misinterpreting." NOW that's not always the case. George Lucas was clearly heavily inspired by Asian culture (Star Wars is fantasy storytelling with Sci-fi skin, change my mind), but his days were less gatekeeping versus modern times. Sorry to get political, just offering insight. I'm sure the race thing is hardly an issue for the OP but I have seen these dialogs in writing communities from time to time. Maybe I just have a bad and misinformed take away (please don't come at me with pitchforks and torches I really do mean well).
Another and most obvious thing is that medieval culture gives us a lot to go off of. There are written documents for EVERYTHING so it's easy to pull resources. Unlike ancient Rome when you mainly get Roman and Egyptian perspective, but because there wasn't much written dialog outside of those cultures (Asian, but many new rulers obliterate everything upon conquering the throne from what I've researched.) It's also one of the most recent versions of "Simpler times". You don't have to reinvent the industrial revolution (something I am having a hard time with myself). In a fantasy world it's hard to come up with fantasy elements to make cars, trains, machinery, unique if you aren't the least bit interested or engineerically (Yeah a made a word, what of it) inclined. Worldbuilding is DIFFICULT, you could say Worldbuilding is COMPLICATED *Insert HelloFutureMe sound effect*.
This turned into a longer essay than a comment and I really need to get back to my homework. Please please please don't take my comment the wrong way!
What you are saying makes sense, and I agree. Something is rotten in the state of fantasy. I'd love to write a story about medieval China and gunpowder with dragons but again, I'm white? It really harms the creative process when I'm told that I can't write certain things. And of course, some will say 'no one is stopping you from writing it...' and that's partially true. But there are certain people who would stop it from getting published and promoted.
@@snowyfictions I know exactly what you mean! While yes, I write for fun, I'm also over here trying to become published. And with the overly sensitive rhetoric I hate the idea of offendkng someone by complete accident because I wasn't 120% accurate or directly inside of the specific culture. I get that we want to read more Korean stories by Korean and Im all for including all races and cultures further than we have been, but it sucks because I keep hearing that I might not be allowed to indulge in writing that Japanese fic that I've been passionate about since I was a kid just because I'm not Japanese.
God I love your work
The chill dude thing got me good, nice job man.
I usually love your debates, but as I am now writing a medieval fantasy novel, I am very stressed over that answer. 😭 IMO, it is far from lazy. The author has to work on research for accuracy, different creatures, methods on where these creatures work and why they work. We have to work on research for language, slang, artwork (if there are any), architecture and so on. I do understand why some readers may find it to be lazy. It is because the trope fit so well. Like a well fitted glove. But if you did fantasy in the modern setting, than what research does the author have to do to get the modern setting right? Barely any...
I guess he really didn’t like my comment that much. 😂
Bruh no problem, just perfect the medival vibe, get it real accurate, do it better medival adaptations nowadays, and as Daniel says, focus on old morals and values and make the culture different
I'm not sure you use that word right, 'trope'.
It's only a trope if you don't do much research for accuracy. It's a trope if you write about the typical 'English Medival' peiod everyone uses. Some of Shad's vidoes were quite enlightening and even shocking.
On the other side, one of Hans Talhoffers books has a picture of a diving suit and I realise that he doesn't exactly fall into the medival period, but the necessary technology was available earlier. Or the ancient egyptian coin operated vending machine to despense holy water. Coin falls onto a lever and pushes it down. The lever is connected to culvert. When the coin falls from the lever it snaps up again and stops the waterflow.
I'mnot saying you have to tech up a medival setting, but a scholar could dredge up some forgotten knowledge or a smart craftsman could reinvent some.
But the most important things overlooked in my opinion (in historical and quite some fantasy novels)?
'Black as night' was nut just a saying. People did their best not to be out at night, becaus eit was really, really dark and even with the best medical Doctor a fall could be crippling or deadly. That is of course if you didn't manage to fall into the village pond or nearby stream and drown.
Soemthing else everyone avoided if they could was travelling in winter. When going out at night was dangerous, travelling in winter could be downright suicidal.
So, in my opinion, if you do your research and enrich your story by it, I don't consider it a trope. If someone uses just the basic knowledge about the medival times 'everyone knows', then it's a trope.
Medieval fantasy isn't lazy.
Ripping off Tolkien and then saying that you meant it as a "retelling", an "inspiration", or an "interpretation", however, starts to feel a lil' bit tedious after a while.
Especially if you pair it with the good old "yes, I know this specific thing looks like it was taken from lotr because of it basically being the same thing with the same function, but allow me to point out this minor aesthetic addition that makes them entirely different"
And, my favorite: "yes, I know that tolkien's works are intentionally some of the most wholesome books ever written, but wouldn't it make me look smarter if instead I made it grimdark?"
And lastly, surprisingly often: "I, certified Big Brained Atheist, ripped the whole thing off without thinking about the fact that now most of the lore does not make sense without a specific religious background"
I personally find medieval fantasy set in Britain or France to be, not lazy, but tired. And I wholeheartedly agree that all the Tolkien ripp-offs are absolutely tedious! Whether its inspo or an homage, they're very obvious and very played out.
Daniel, you really need to read Cloud roads if you want a fantasy book with no humans. It also hits many of your like list, fantastic cover art, new magic systems, issues of adaption to new cultures, and spoiler... strange foods.
When you drifted across the screen it took me a relisten to hear "The wheel of time wants to talk to you" because the first time it was so breathy I though I was going to have to play this backward.
hm TBH I find it hard to reconcile "only write your heritage" and "don't write western European stuff" XD Guess there is no point in trying if one can't win haha.
I'm writing my fantasy for nanowrimo, I'm Scandinavian so it's a Scandinavian book... and most fantasy get northern Europe extremely wrong. So... Just by doing research I can imagine something new.... and honestly, I see a lot of natives completely butchering their own history, like What I thought I knew about my own people is so wrong XD. I feel like... fantasy is tropy, if one instead showed stuff like... how mixed early medieval Scandinavia actually was (yeah, multiculturalism... before multiculturalism!) , then It wouldn't look like ordinary fantasy. It'd be something else. Legends and fairytales tend to be very misunderstood or changed in fantasy, even if they are inspired by stuff like vikings or northern Europe. So yeah... I still wanna see it, but I want it... more inspired by things we know from history, and less hmmm. Less British, I guess.
Chill dude™
That was my favorite part, lol
This video is giving me hope for the story I'm working on, and appeasing quite a few of my insecurities.
DANIEL - read the YA novel from the 90's: 'The Ear, the Eye and the Arm"
It has a few of those ignored cultures you talked about with a HEAVY focus on some African influences (I want to say Mozambique? Maybe South African?) It's a detective tale with Sci-Fi twists.
You'll like it. Well written
Oof this comment just woke me up with a cold bucket of water and slapped my nostalgia bone
Daniel: give me some spicy fantasy species
also Daniel: Y gN0mEz tHo?????
When daniel went "you need a skill you can share" I was like "No idea where this is going" *laughs in sarcastic*
I liked how Dune integrated music of the culture in. You don't have to describe the "tones", just show what music means to the culture and characters.
Prehistoric fantasies would be awesome. Genndy Tartakovsky's Primal is already an example of how supernatural elements in prehistoric times can be great material for horror stories.
Daniel: I wanna read stuff from other countries
Me who has lived in a volcano in an unknown island for my entire life, "Bro wait till u see what I am cooking."
WRITE THAT BOOK!!! 😀
@@karissahammond4587 lols ok, on it
I had the same thought. My country is so unknown that customs officers at the airports raise their eyebrows when they see my passport 😅
@@iauir3797 I know right. I showed them my passport, and they said it was fake. How do they know about the passport of a country they have never been to. What do they think we r, scammers!
@@iauir3797 lols
love the cyberpunk 2077 background
On the expanding your horizons thing, i think you should read "1001 nights" Daniel
Rec for a series with all the magical-tech-development: Child of a Hidden Sea! Magic is regulated with a kind of copyright law and everything from how people sail, to how they grow their food, to the way they practice medicine! It's all in there and it's so different, but it makes sense. Highly recommend 10/10