You're not bound by a court order until you're notified about it, and (despite the video title) Steve made it fairly clear that the guy's own lawyer acknowledged that the cops were probably already loading the car on a trailer when he obtained the court order. And while neither the guy or his son were suspected of committing a crime, looking for a car that's thought to have been stolen is in fact looking for evidence of a crime, so it's unlikely that there's actually a legal defect in using a search warrant to locate and seize the car.
I find it hilarious that when my car was stolen, I could barely get the police to answer the phone. This guy has cops running across the country and seizing cars from people based on hard to see hidden VIN
Back in 2013 a buddy of mine that owned dealership had 4 cars stolen. The police said it was a civil matter and wouldn't do jack shit. He even told them who took them. Nope, take them to court.
So they took property that did not belong to them with no court order that called for it. That is theft. We really need to rewrite qualified immunity rules to be much more narrow in scope.
We just need to do away with it. The one exception of a "clean shooting" and similar situations so a cop can't be sued for just doing their job, but would be liable for anything outside of their job could be sued.
And if police officers violate the law, the punishment should be doubled vs what an ordinary citizen would get. If felony grand theft is normally 10 years, a cop doing it should get 20. Automatically, not reduced for any reason.
If they acted against a court order, they should not be able to hide behind "qualified immunity" as they were *not* acting in the course of their duties. Instead, they should be charged with armed robbery, like anyone else who steals a car at gunpoint.
The biggest problem here is that the police didn't let the courts do their work, lied to the court, and essentially stole the vehicle. There's the distinct possibility that the man was made whole by insurance and that they could have simply settled by making the title clean. There's also the possibility that the firewall had been replaced due to major rust and other issues.
There's a few things that could have happened, and one of them is as you said. Steve chuckled because that's unlikely. Now, if the car had been completely stripped and parted out, then a chassis was purchased and everything else is random other cars, then yes it's more plausible, but the story also hasn't given us such details. I also don't know how a ship of Theseus scenario would apply in law, because there's many arguments that can be made.
I wasn't aware that cops can so easily and frequently ignore and violate court orders, and then try to claim "qualified immunity"......every cop from whichever department, or state, involved, should be held in contempt, jailed, fined, and fired
@@hiddenInsight486the one on the dash usually is, but I do see a lpt of vim stamps in the frame between the engine and firewall. It's a place not worth trying to forge because if tampered with, it's very conspicuous due to the difficulty of access. You're options are to cut and splice, or grind and restamp, and stamping it is not something even a few number of ppl can do.
You're not bound by a court order until you're notified about it, and (despite the video title) Steve made it fairly clear that the guy's own lawyer acknowledged that the cops were probably already loading the car on a trailer when he obtained the court order. And while neither the guy or his son were suspected of committing a crime, looking for a car that's thought to have been stolen is in fact looking fr evidence of a crime, so it's unlikely that there's actually a legal defect in using a search warrant to locate and seize the car.
@@suedenim9208Perhaps it was proper to search for, and seize, the vehicle but, if it's evidence of a crime, they should hold it until the investigation has completed and not just ship it quickly out of state. By then the court order would be received and a judicial determination could be made. It is not the job of the police to make that determination.
Too many cops are far too eager to violate people's rights. They think nothing of seriously disrupting someone's life on a whim. There needs to be serious consequences for these actions.
Similar thing happened to me for a motorcycle in GA 13 years ago. I was the one who had the bike stolen and it was sold to someone eho tried to register it and the VIN turned up stolen, the police contacted me but to recover it, I had to pay recovery and storage fees to the impound yardz which were thousands and not worth the bike. So that bike was actually stolen twice...
the cop waited so their tow company friend would get to sell it cause they knew you would not bother paying the fee. the impound company sells and give the cop his cut. basic cop corruption 101.
Wa State did this to me, with my stolen 77 Celica. When it was stolen, I was mad. When it got found, towed, stored then sold at auction. It was done intentionally, to screw me. Revenge will be mine.
Sounds like some tow companies will try to use the law to take advantage of people. I live in Oregon and I had a tow company try to pin me for towing and storage of a Vehicle I sold two years prior.The new owner didn't transfer the title. I had proof of signing the title away, the bill of sale and had I notified the DMV of the sale. The tow company tried to get me on a technicality of it not having the sellers address even though DMV honored my notification. I talked to a few lawyers and threatened to sue them if a collection agency they hired damaged my credit score. They backed off.
@@seanlavelle344 tow company in Burien Wa stole my car, then sold it at auction. My 77 Celica was stolen. Apparently they stripped it, and dumped it in White Center. The tow company waited 5 weeks to notify me, they had my car. Gave me 3 days, to come up with $2500 in tow and storage. They then sold my car at auction. Then, since they only got $600, because it was stripped, they wanted the balance. Even with police reports of it being stolen... I was victimized a second time by the predatory tow company, and given the dirtbags I spoke too, and the condition of their yard... I seriously think they are who stripped it. I take Every opportunity I see, too cut hydraulic lines on tow trucks, and pull valve stems. They no longer come help you. They hire idiots, that refuse to even try to get you going, they just tow.
Good story Steve. Quick question. If the original owner of the stolen car received an insurance settlement for the stolen vehicle wouldn’t that also mean that he gave up legal interest in it? Shouldn’t the car have been returned to the insurance company?
This happened to me. I had a bike stolen, got an insurance payment about half of what it was worth. (I fought them for 6 months over that.) A year later the police recovered it, the insurance company took it, and sold it at auction. I went there to buy it back, and it ended up going for twice what they paid me for it. Fuck the insurance companies!
@PGGraham why I never take ghe first offer also keep all maintenance bills because the most recent they'll usually refund you for because when they auction the car they'll get more has worked twice for me 1 at fault 1 not
If the original owner had theft insurance then he got paid for the car for what it was worth at the time. Clearly 20 plus years later any muscle car will be worth more now. It would seem to me that original owner would have to pay back the money from the insurance company, most likely with interest if he still wants the car back. The current owner is pretty much screwed for the money he spent on the car to purchase it unless he can still find the person that sold him the car. His best hope is the original owner would not want the car back if he has to pay back the money that his insurance company paid him for the stolen car. The only winners here are going to be the attorneys that will be representing the people involved.
There is a legal term for taking someone's car "without legal authority" to do so. It still boggles the mind how the law doesn't apply, depending on who commits the crime.
If you're working in water treatment plant you don't get convicted of reckless endangerment if you miss a safety check. If you're an airline pilot you get a writeup for missing a procedure, you don't go to jail for it. This is what people don't understand about qualified immunity; it's the same as any other job that has responsibility. There's going to be mistakes and if you prosecute every cop for "kidnapping" if they arrest the wrong person or "theft" if they seize a car you'll just end up with zero cops. If you want people to take responsibility you can't crucify them for being human.
@gorkyd7912 Calling it a "mistake" is feigning ignorance. It's like saying the guy that pissed in pickles at burger King just "made a mistake" or "he didn't know he couldn't do that".
This is why qualified immunity needs to be revoked. The police and the department should be held liable for replacing that car with a equal replacement and lawyer fees.
Qualified immunity is just that-qualified. It's that judges and prosecutors tend to expand what is within the scope of a government worker's job to be included, even if it's borderline criminal.
Those cops that illegally stole the man's car should be at the very last fired right? Those cops had legal authority to search the property for evidence of a crime, the car was seized unlawfully, therefore they stole his car, whether or not it was stolen before it was sold to him.
It's actually quite common to replace firewall, cowl, quarter panel, b pillars, floor pans and a pillar on a lot of classic cars I've done several myself to replace rotted metal
In UE if u do around VIN plates u must hold old number plate, sometimes i seen welded on some support just "it's here" or u can go to county inspection with old numbers and get stamped same number in same place
Multiple LEO departments spent weeks investigating a 20 year-old car theft case... so much for a lack of resources, one would think they would have had better things to be doing... and just let the courts sort it out... 😒
when I was a kid I looked up to the police, when I was a teenager I ran from them but still respected them. when I was in college I thought they were the good guys. now that I'm middle aged, all of that goodwill is gone and it's completely the fault of their own profession.
Don't lose respect for law enforcement that makes as much sense as losing respect for white people because one guy in Florida tried to rob a burger king with a crocodile. Lose respect for THESE law enforcement officers certainly. More importantly who is responsible for their actions hold them accountable.
It's amazing that these cops will violate every constitutional right in order to search and seize a car stolen 20 years ago but Houston cops wont retrieve a Tesla stolen this month that is sitting in an apartment complex parking lot.
Everything you said about the firewall is accurate and likely the case, but, it can sometimes get really complicated when dealing with old cars- It's not unheard of to replace/ heavily modify the firewall (or large sections of it) due to a full restoration, resto modding, or performance upgrades like fitting a bigger motor, transmission, turbo, or exhaust system. I knew someone who went full tube chassis in a unibody car and built their own firewall because it was easier than trying to modify the original... This brings that old thought experiment to mind, the one about replacing every single piece on a wooden ship over many years. Is it still the same boat? What if somebody collected all of the old pieces, as they were being replaced, then used them to build a "second" sister ship? How far through the process is it considered a new ship? 50%? 100%? and at what time is it considered a new ship? After the second ship (with the original parts) is fully built? Half way built?
Right I mean I got a 1977 Camaro I'm working on I'm doing a full floor replacement so idk why he thinks it's crazy to have to swap core structure components. Lol "I've never heard of anyone doing that" well you clearly aren't a car guy sometimes you got to replace these parts if they are old and from the rust belt lol this is the problem with lawyers they represent people in jobs they have no understanding of look at Rittenhouse lawyers clearly had no understanding of self defense Rittenhouse house nearly went to jail because of his braindead defense 😒
@@cch201992 I did the floor pans on a '76? Firebird with a friend a while back. Both of us thought it was going to be a nightmare, but once we got it stripped down it was actually quick and pretty easy. We didn't have a lift and neither of us knew how to weld back then (a third friend tacked them in for us). That car was so nice to work on, modern cars are such a pain. I'm looking for a cool G-body right now, maybe an El'Camino if I can find one.
I agree. I have a 66 cyclone convertible I am working on that basically needs everything from between the door hinges up replaced from a donor. So basically replacing most of the fire wall including where the VIN is located. At least, that will be the easiest way to go about it. Regardless, the part of the cowl that has the VIN needs to be replaced. They even sell reproduction sheet metal for the very place that the VIN is located. It's just extremely expensive and working from a donor is cheaper and easier. This is a very common issue on the mid/late 60's Fords including the Mustang. The cowl design for water drainage resulted in a lot of rust in the cowl area. But for all intents and purposes, Steve is right. It's the last part of a car that is stripped, and it's clear that the criminals swapped the cowl/VIN tag area. It wasn't the only part of the car that was stollen.
Check your vin if buy any vehicle, it tells everything about the vehicle, motor, axles power steering, ECT. People take the good stuff off and replace with base model stuff.
Was wondering same thing! If insurance paid, the “was made whole” and insurance company would take possession of the title. They own the (missing) car now.
@@texasgirlmomx2342 Statute of limitation only applies to prosecution of the thief. And it's possible that interstate theft like this may not fall under statute of limitations laws. However, ownership is ownership regardless of the time elapsed.
I had the same thing happen to me in 1978. I purchased a ‘69 Corvette from a dealer lot. I did a lot of work to the car and then drove it to the police department to get the vin checked because it was an out of state title. I needed this check to obtain an Indiana title in my name. The Police informed me that the car was reported stolen in Michigan and they were impounding it. I got a lawyer but the cops gave the car back to the guy who reported it stolen before I could get anything filed in court. In fact, the day after it was impounded. He had sold the car to someone who gave him a bad check, hence the stolen vehicle report. My lawyer had to file suit in Michigan against the guy and I got an order which required him to return the vehicle to me. My lawyer said I should sue the Police Department to cover my fees, but I declined. If it hadn’t been for my Dad’s help, I could not have afforded to retain an attorney to recover my car. This experience had a lot to do with my deciding to go to law school and become a trial attorney.
In 1978 it was nigh on impossible to sue the police (harder than today). Bivens pretty much gave cops a blank check to maim, murder, and steal. In 1982 they made it slightly less impossible.
my buddy told the lawyer he would let the man sue for him, on contingency at a 30% cut... his case was f-ed enough the lawyer wanted it.. he made bank... took 7 years but... most of that delaying from the states lawyers and the cities insurance companies lawyers.. in the end... he not only ended up with the vehicle back, but owning a property the city had confiscated from somebody, and had already been forced to pay out on since the owners didnt want the place back after they converted the home into a mental health facility and leasted it to a really shady clinic network.. that moved out after ownership changed and they were informed their rent would be moving up to market rate for the area rather then the less then 1/4th of that they were paying... they moved quick.. heh...
If the original owner reported it stolen, then he was paid for the fair market value by his insurance company. The title would then change to the insurance company. Stupid cops gave the car to wrong party....
YES!! This is what I came here to comment about. If the person who had it stolen was PAID by insurance company, then the insurance company owns the vehicle and the original owner needs to give it up or pay big time to get it back!
As someone who worked with my grandfather's classic cars, I've seen VIN's mismatch on vehicles quite a bit. Another collector had a piece of a car with a different VIN, one that was listed as stolen. Apparently it was parted out and the guy who started rebuilding the car originally got some of the parts from the junkyard, one of which being part of the stolen car. Actually I've seen cars where the front was chopped to fix another car, especially if it was a side hit toward the rear. So you can easily have a fender VIN (what Steve talked about) not matching the dash (A pillar) VIN. That's why you see "parts matching" cars worth more money. Some are one axles, some are on radiator supports, some are on firewalls, some are on door pillars, some are on the hood (if the car had different hood options) and many can actually be seen fairly easily the older cars. Modern cars like BMW and other higher end cars, sometimes have them in spots you have to drill and use a light. By the by, people have rebuilt entire airplanes from just the data plate.
About that last point, assuming the original theft victim got a payout from his insurance company, he's *been* compensated. So he got paid for it 20 years ago and now he gets to have it back while a whole chain of previous owners have to chase each other down for compensation until they eventually run into the problem of finding the car thief from 20 years ago who stole it in the first place.
Hi Steve. I'm confused, the camaro in Baldwin was apparently registered with the VIN from the firewall. The Alabama dept. of revenue came looking for the car after a check of the database. How could there ever be a title on that car if the VIN was reported as stolen? Was it recovered and sold at auction by the insurance company? But they failed to clear the VIN after the auction? I think the police went out of bounds big time in this case and the city is going to pay for this. I hope you will follow up on this one because i'd like to see how this plays out.
I wouldn’t expect insurance to be involved. An insurance company would need to be the last titled owner of the vehicle before sending it through auction, so it would be register as owned by an insurance company instead of an individual if that was the case.
@@everettsgoldenduo4999 A friend of mine used to work for an auto auction company. Plenty of totaled vehicles are being auctioned by insurance companies with the last registered owner being the last name on the title, and it's up to the buyer to complete the chain-of-ownership (which often requires fake signatures). Often these vehicles are not even roadworthy, but also do not have Totaled titles from insurance, leaving unscrupulous buyers the option of Band-Aid repairs and a quick flip for high KBB value. My friend found a really nice condition '07 Dodge Caravan 4-cylinder, low mileage, ran and drove nicely, at auction. He slapped an auction plate on it, drove it out to my house, I test-drove it and gave it a thorough once-over. I let my mother take it for a ride, she liked it, she decided she wanted to buy it. As far as the title was concerned, a gentleman from Rhode Island sold the van directly to my mother. In reality, he traded in the van at a dealer, the dealer sold it to another dealer, that second dealer took the car to auction, it was purchased at auction but payment fell through, was re-auctioned, no buyers were interested, so my friend asked the seller how much they'd take for it. "Buy Here, Cry Here" dealers are just as bad. Friend of mine bought a car from one of those (Geo Storm), the Dodge dealer across the street took it as trade. There was no transfer of ownership from the previous owner to the Dodge dealer, and no transfer of ownership from the Dodge dealer to the other dealer. In order for him to register the car, the Dodge dealer faked signatures from the previous owner transferring ownership directly to my friend as a Private Sale.
Unless the insurance considered it a total loss and owner oped to keep it and restore it then sold it the insurance company would have had to remove it from stolen and report it as scrap if one or both where not done and the original owner sold it or his next of ken did the state may have miskedma it complete , and just issued new certificate of title. As one of the whole problems is where is the true title lay as the state destroy the actual mso and issues certificate of title not the actual true title. A certificate of title is only evidence title exist somewhere but where that is in the state.
@@snellsworld2648 Yeah. You have to watch out for those. Even though most of the time the deal is completely legit. People do make mistakes. Not to mention just be downright nefarious. You can never really know until you actually go and get it registered. Which is why you should only do that when you already have some rapport with the other party imo. But I realize that is not always feasible.
Because of situations like this, when I was searching for a classic Porsche roadster I did extensive background checks on the two that it came down to. There was a 911 Carrera not a roadster but still an amazing car. But the 911 came up with a warning on the VIN which the dealer had not disclosed to me. So I demanded My hold money back and shamed them for not telling me. Ultimately I found my classic Porsche roadster and she was completely clean on the title. One owner, and she only needed a little work. She is now like new and I an thrilled every time I hop in the driver's seat. This is a really great video Steve!
Something that amuses me is the workmanship on a non-original car is often way above that of the factory production line. I've actually heard someone complain that their concours restoration was compromised by the neat work the body shop did applying seam-sealer after replacing rusted floor pans.
There's ignoring a court order, that's awful by itself, but this is worse as they did the exact opposite of what they were ordered to do. Amazing that they were getting rid of it at the exact same moment there was a court order telling them not to was granted. It is also a perversion of justice for the police to have also broken into the son's property, I hope the officers get absolutely reamed by the court... But they probably won't be. 😔
What's more, getting rid of the car so quickly sounds like disposal of evidence to me. If they got a search warrant to search for it, and then immediately decided to just get rid of it from the whole state, then I'm assuming they wanted to make sure the owner never got their day in court.
Why is it that the benefit of the doubt is always given to the state offical when it comes to "intent" these officers knew exactly what they were doing. They should 100% lose their QI and be criminally liable.
My wife and I find a Steve Lehto video every day. It's a freak way to start the day. Thanks Steve for letting us know your gearhead story. I'm also an old gear head. Hot rod magazine WAS my childhood.
Dont most if not all states require a VIN inspection prior to issuing a title? Also, wouldn't the owner that had the vehicle stolen, have been reimbursed by his insurance? If the current owner wants to buy it, would you consider the value of the vehicle at the time it was stolen or currently, otherwise undue enrichment?
What if that last guy put on new tires? Now are his tires stolen? Taken across state lines making it a federal felony? New wipers, oil, air freshener...
Great video. Learned a lot like if a cop shows up claiming my car is stolen to ask: "Do you have a court order?" (No? Then how do I know, you aren't stealing my car?)
I watched a shop install a new firewall in a 1968 Camaro. The car was stripped to the bare shell in preparation. It took an enormous amount of work. When it was time to reinstall the VIN tag the police had to be involved. This is in Ontario, Canada. It is something that can be legally done if you have an enormous amount of paperwork.
@@drewschumann1 you can have a car with mulit vin if it was chopped and re-welded. Lot of restoration companies do that. Make 1 good car out of several old ones. Why because not aftermarket part are available
If you buy a stolen car, knowingly or not, it is not yours. The officers obviously abused their power and probably did so criminally as a search warrant is not a court ordered seizure of property. Great vids and content :)
@everythingpony I think Steve said that isn't the case. He said the guy in the story he just told is likely not getting that car back despite the theft happening 20 years ago.
Steve explaining all the VIN positioning and variation, remained me of Ian from forgotten weapons explaining all the various marking differences on guns! Love it!
Excellent job explaining VIN number switching so non-car people can understand it. I was raised in a car family and still have collector cars myself. Years ago a convertible 1968 Camaro I was looking at had mismatch VIN's. We always check and expect any buyer to check the VIN number's in multiple places.
“Collectible and Classic” cloning and “restoration” is now big business. I’ve seen at least 1000 67 Camaro Z-28s, with Z-28 emblems, or RS hide-away headlights, GM made something like 200 of them, none had emblems, the only place that “Z28” appears is on the options list and build sheet. RS/SS can be decoded from the VIN and body tag. I spent a year or more chasing down the original 327 for a 67 RS that I restored and showed years ago. I can only imagine what you would have to do and spend to find an original date appropriate DZ engine now!
Steve, you’re mostly correct, but there are several instances where a firewall can be swapped, and it’s much more likely to be on an old, rarer car. Sometimes the engine can be pushed into the firewall after a front end damage. The firewall can also be heavily corroded, usually at the top. So when someone buys an old car and goes to restore it, they literally look for cut up old cars and WILL replace ‘skeleton’ parts. When you see a car stripped bare, if it’s an old car, the carcass still has value.
Will the owner who gets the car back need to reimburse his ensurance company if they have payed him for the stolen car? What about the intrest rate/inflation? How does this work in the US?
I am going to state this because it needs to be said. Firewalls are replaced in many restorations due to rust, damage, or not having the correct holes for options added during restoration. It is common. Common added options during restoration are A/C, power brakes, vacuum assisted breakes, automatic or manual conversions, and others. This is so common that the practice has a slang name called resto-mod. Very few restorations are actually numbers matching (VIN) or complete original restorations.
Replacing a firewall is not "common". When a car has a firewall that's so rusty that it needs replacement, usually the rest of the car is also rotten and it's not worth restoring. The parts car you need to donate the parts would become the car to restore. If the firewall doesn't have the right holes for the options you're putting in, a restorer will simply cut the holes in. Nobody's replacing the firewall because of a few missing holes.
I feel sorry for both people.the last owner had thought he bought a legit car and finds out parts on it were stolen. I am sure this is one of many that this has happened to.
I wonder if the owner who had his Camaro stolen was compensated by his insurance company? I'm not suggesting he isn't entitled to getting his stolen car returned to him (or her), but 20 years ago it was hard to obtain full-coverage insurance on muscle cars from the 60's & early 70's... I don't know about now, but my parents had a Mustang 429 CJR that they bought new around '71 and out of the blue around 2002 their insurance company simply stopped offering full coverage for it (even though it was barely ever driven).
This reminds me about an investigation into an upscale jewelry store in New York City over stolen diamonds. On 60 Minutes, they mapped out this high grade diamond on a ring. The map was this kind of finger print/VIN number, and it was fully recorded and documented. With under cover video, they had a person go in there to get the ring appraised. A clerk at the jewelry store took the ring to the back to get it appraised. The clerk came back with their appraisal and the 60 Minute staffer left with the ring. The ring was then analyzed and the jewelry store switched the diamond. Later, the store owner was confronted with the charge and all hell broke loose. Never knew what happened to the jewelry store, but cars are not the only area where this happens.
@@JudyHart1 the look on the owners face, when confronted, was priceless. Then they ran to the back of the shop. I didn't see the follow up, and I still would like to happen to them. 60 Minutes was good back then.
Hi Lehto, THX for another great video. Albeit I'm viewing this video a year late. As I recall, VIN numbers on "normal passenger vehicles" are guaranteed unique within a 30 year period. At least I was told so when writing type approval apps for vehicles 20 years ago. Trailers often have primitive serial numbers such that every model may have VINs number 000001, 000002, etc. Custom built extreme vehicles , like a 25-axles platform may have no VIN number at all. In Denmark, such vehicles get special permits for specific transports - and the registration plate on the vehicle contains the permit number. No VIN involved. I assume the "Beast" is so heavy from protection gear that it falls into HGV weight territory. Probably special rules for the Beast.
The problem with the car being returned to the person it was stolen from is that most likely, not definitely (gotta choose the words corectly here), but most likely, that person was already made whole (See? Some of us do pay attention and we retain terminology that we otherwise wouldn't know about lol.) by their insurance company. There is a slight possibility, a very slight one, that the car didn't have insurance, but in 2003, a 35 year old car which was well into its own collectibility? I'd say the odds are extremely slim that it wasn't covered against theft. He's got a car that doesn't belong to him, and he knows it, all because he didn't bother to notify the investigating department that he had been paid off. That car needs to be given back to either the insurance company or the guy that the police stole it from, and because he most likely accepted the car back under false pretence, he needs to be charged with receiveng stolen property and/or insurance fraud.
When a vehicle is totaled via theft you’re always required to mail the signed title to the insurance company. That company would have been the last registered owner of the vehicle and it would have been returned to them instead in that case.
Like the insurance company won’t pay for the vehicle until they have the title in hand, so I’d assume that the previous owner didn’t have it insured when it was stollen
Excellent explaination of the legal system Steve. One question however is if the insurance company paid off aren't they the legal owner of the property now, and shouldn't the get the car?
I see this question come up so much, and even if he's done a video on it before, he really needs to do one. As for the question, no they don't. They are not "buying" the car from you when they give you a payout on it. They are reimbursing you for your loss, theoretically from the money that you have paid in. This is the purpose and intent of insurance. I really don't get why so many people think the insurance company has 'bought' the car when they do a total loss payout. It isn't like your medical insurance provider has bought a portion of your body when they help cover a major surgery, so why would other types of insurance be different?
@@allanjacobs5342 **sigh** No, because the money that the insurance company pays to you is the money that you paid to them to help cover you in the event of a major loss. Well, technically you and all of their other customers, and if you never make any major claims then it can be viewed as you assisting the insurance company in being able to pay those customers. Imagine for a moment that you have a special savings account that you use exclusively for helping pay certain large bills that may or may not come up but that you would have problems covering within your normal finances. When one of those particular large maybe bills comes up you withdraw money from it to cover said bill. Do you HAVE to pay that money back? Not necessarily, but since this special savings account has almost no interest it is generally considered a good idea to keep paying into it regularly so that there is money there for when the next of those large maybe bills happens, if it happens. In a very crude sense, this is how insurance works. The difference is that the insurance company is financially capable of paying out to you several times what you have paid in since that large maybe bill might happen long before you've actually 'saved' enough to cover the entirety of it from your insurance payments. This is also why people who make more frequent insurance claims have higher rates, it is a reflection of the fact that the insurance company is taking a greater risk of suffering an overall loss in relation to what that person has paid in. If you find a strongly reputable life insurance company and look at the full details of how a Whole Life policy works you can see this broken down in far better detail, especially because most of the companies that offer such policies have it so that once it has accrued a certain amount of value you can take out a loan against the policy to help cover sudden large life expenses (though until said loan is paid back any final payout from the Whole Life policy will be reduced by the remaining value of the loan). Although that is one of the few types of insurance policies that can be used in such a secondary manner. The principals that make it possible for them to offer such a secondary feature are inherent to ALL insurance policies, from life to auto to home to medical to professional.
A Jeep gets firewalls removed all the time. Body swaps are common. I was also told by the secretary of state that the hidden VIN numbers on an older Jeep apparently are not on the body.
So basically, judges are incompetent and allow police to do nearly anything. But occasionally, the 1 good judge out of 100 will question the legality of previous judges but throw the accountability to the police.
And you can get in trouble despite a judges authorization. I was arrested after a judge allowed me to go to my sons school during my divorce. The school and the police disregarded the court order.
Where I live, judges are not infrequently the attorneys who were too incompetent to make it in private practice or are nothing but political party hacks. They see themselves as part of the prosecution team in criminal cases and nobody gets a fair hearing.
Which is then dismissed by another or the same incompetent judge as "qualified immunity". Qualified immunity needs to be either outlawed or signed into law and given a clear legal description.
It could be increasingly difficult to pursue the guy who sold him the stolen car for a refund, especially if he bought it a while ago, but suing the cops might get him monetary compensation instead. At the very least in this case, the original owner got his car back.
@@MagicHamsta And if the original owner got paid off by his insurance company he should have to repay said insurance company otherwise I believe it to be unjust enrichment, i.e. he got the money and he gets the car.
@@steveb9487 Any insurance claim would have transferred ownership to the insurance company. If in fact a claim was paid the original owner no longer has any claim to the car.
I have a question Steve. By the way, I saw you on the documentary about the Chrysler turbine car, good job! If the original owner was paid out by the insurance company, he shouldn’t have any more claim to the car, correct? If he did and then took possession of the car back, would he not owe the insurance company money in order to keep it?
Don’t know how the US works but in Canada once a claim has been settled between insured and insurance company, than the insurance company owns any property or items which were replaced or stolen. Here, the car would be returned to the insurance company who payed out the original claim and they would in turn offer to “sell “ the car back to the claimant, usually for the amount paid out.
If the original and rightful owner of the car was compensated by his insurance company for the value of the car when it was stolen does the insurance company get the car? Does he have to pay the insurance company back? How does that work?
Ive seen a firewall replaced due to fire damage, I would like to know if in fact there were different VINs on different parts on the vehicle. If so, did they determine that the firewall was the most important one? I want to know that before i would say its THE vehicle in question. Love the channel!
They probably took the same stance as steve. The firewall is probably original due to how often theyre replaced. But when talking old cars things do end up getting replaced even if theyre considered core.
"Deck lid" Whoa! I have learned quite a bit about cars today by watching this video. This is one of my favorites from you. I'm not a law student or a mechanic, so It helps when you simplify this information you're discussing. You're a great teacher! Thank you!
As a body technician that ran into this issue before. A salvage yard once sold the shop I worked for an entire firewall from a stolen Ford mustang (unknowingly). The firewall and front frame rails had been damaged during an accident. So I cut the roof and the base of the windshield and the floor across the front. Then it lived out its life (years) until it was in a second accident and someone checked the vin. And they determined that some dumb moron didn't switch the vin at the base of the windshield when they cut it apart. 😅 I don't know what happened after that but I got questioned about it 5 years later.
The police should be sued over this for filing a fraudulent search warrant. They should have been able to look up when the last time that the car was registered to the new owner and seen that the statute of limitations had expired.
It's been a long time since I worked on a Camaro of any model but I do recall a lot of GM cars around that era also had the VIN stamped into the R/F chassis/subframe horn, which is a part that can be swapped out fairly easily. If that model had this type of construction, I would be interested to see if the VIN's matched. Edit: As a side note, I seen a few cases where the section of firewall with the VIN on it has been cut out and welded into another firewall. Most were pretty obvious but one was really well done as they had taken the time to make sure the cut edge was hidden by the firewall soundproofing. I only spotted that one because I was replacing the wiper rack and saw the back of the weld! The other question is: Had the original owner been paid out by insurance? If so, doesn't the insurance company own the car?
Steve, I live in Kansas. Every time I buy a vehicle from out of state, in order to get a Kansas tag, I have to get it inspected by a local law enforcement officer. ALL he inspects is the VIN and odometer. He runs the VIN against a stolen car report. It is really strange that car was not apprehended sooner than 20 years.
Its actually a common issue. Older vehicles pre-date national titling, originally they were issued a state registration-only. Many states still allow these vehicles to be bought/sold/on-road via registration-only, titling is extra cost/time so owners dont do it. If a vehicle is registered but not titled then it doesnt exist in the National Motor Vehicle TITLING Information System, so there's no way for law-enforcement to report/check if its stolen.
when someone steals a car it very likely they stash it somewhere out of sight, and they dont attempt to register or sell it for a long time thinking it has cooled off, this car could have easily been in storage somewhere for the past 20 years
I know a guy that replaced the firewall in mid-80's Trans Am that was only 18 months old. The previous owner ran into a sidewalk guardrail. The guardrail being hand made of 2.5 inch pipe ran through the front end into the passenger compartment literally between the legs of the driver and under the front seat, very lucky man. Damaged the frontend bumper, hood, radiator/condenser, engine accessories, and firewall. He got a donner car that was rear ended and with a lot of work ended up with a nice Trans Am. I wonder if the vin from the other car was on the portion that was replaced? I would think you would replace most of the firewall at that point as it would assure that the other dash components would be aligned properly.
I thought that 67-69 Camaros for a long time people were selling the vin tag alone for $5000. If the car was rusted out etc. You can buy a whole body from many aftermarket places but to register it you needed a vin badge. So people would sell vin badges from completely damaged or rusted out cars.. So it seems like everything you’re saying about the firewall badge proving it being the stolen car is wrong. You would want to look at the other vins to prove it.
I have seen police ignore court orders many times. In one case I saw the judge adjourn court and walk to Police station and force the police to obey the court order. Police in some cases show incredible Hubris proficiency while at the same time being really crappy officers of the law.
I used to work in a race shop, where we took wrecked cars and would do whatever was necessary to make it race legal. We cut the front clip along with the firewall A pillars and back to rockers. Which included the door hinge mounting area. We replaced that whole assembly on a customer wrecked street and strip car that was wrecked during a race. After we finished fixing it it received a salvage title from Virginia where we were located. The owner took it to the police to get it approved by the police since it was a salvage title where it was seized for being stolen. It was the parts car that we had bought from a wrecking yard in West Virginia. It took months to prove the car wasn't stolen but eventually both parties got their car's back. The owner gave the original stolen car back minus the front clip (it had been hit in the rearend. The guy we built the car for had another car with the rear quarter and front of the body so he's could rebuild his car. It sucks they didn't find the car before we cut it up but since it was on a frame it wasn't too bad replacing the front of the body since it wasn't a load bearing structure like a unibody. And since it was cut up he wasn't going to restore it but instead turned it into a track only car.
Crazy story. When my family moved from Louisiana to Texas we had a Ford Aerostar. The VIN had a "B", but the DMV clerk in Texas wrote in an "8". When we traded the Aerostar in for a Mustang the dealership wasn't worried about the VIN. End of story, but it could have been bad when we moved back to Louisiana with the Aerostar.
Loved this story and thank you for sharing! Thoroughly enjoyed how you illustrated the VIN number locations etc. and laughed when you mentioned playing with your toys more often. :) We all should. :D Got on my computer later than planned. For the last 10 days been trying to catch a loose parakeet that kept showing up outside at my feeders. I got it right around the time I was going to get on the computer. *laughs* So I had to spend some time getting the new bird settled near my other parakeets so they can get acquainted. In a few days to a week I will move the new rescue bird from the little cage to the big one with my other keets. The first one I got a couple years ago was also a rescue from the outdoors. The 2nd one I actually purchased to keep the first one company. Thanks again for this story! It's great. - Heidi
Steve, some guys raced Camaro in the early years and butchered or even cut out the fire wall. When years passed by, these owners found that the car they chopped up is worth 6 digits now. They would go as far as to totally restore that car, look for parts, and actually, factory weld that fire wall back in. That's where these stolen parts become gold to the restorer.
I am sick of saying it but I hope the officers are severely punished, for acting without a court order and then in direct opposition to another court order. I also hope the current owner is compensated and the car is returned until the issue is resolved.
My question is, how was this car registered for the last 20 years including the owner you mentioned in this story who had the car for several years. And if they cloned the vin how did the one on the firewall come to light ?
The states are now sharing more information than they used to. So. Cars with phony titles 15 years and 4 owners back are getting found. Even though they have been legal for years. Tough on the current owner.
@@bobmazzi7435 As a person who had a car stolen (1970 Malibu) over 30 years ago, if somehow MY car got returned to me, I would feel a little bad for the current "owner"....from a lot of the responses here, it sounds like almost all of you haven't had this happen to you....believe me, to this day I want that car back because IT'S MINE, I don't care who thinks they currently own it.
@@marks93cobraBut did you get an insurance payment for the car? There are a lot of issues not answered here. Like if the insurance paid out would the original owner be required to pay back the insurance company? Or does the insurance company take possession of the car because they paid for it? Steve, from all the questions that this raises in just my mind and the other questions, it seems that this could be a semester long class. Please let us know how this case proceeds.
You know what bugs me most on this is the courts and system will track and look for a car for 20 years plus easily. But if you ever have a gun stolen they only keep it on the stolen list if you file a paper saying it’s still stolen every year. How many guns get stolen and then removed cause the person who owned it missed a deadline of returning that paper every year.
Not in Michigan. I had 2 stolen handguns returned many years later. I didn't renew any report. One was after about 10 years and the other was closer to 15.
@@daddio7249 I mean we have drivers license and I don’t see them outlawing sports cars. Sure you can’t take a F-1 down the city streets but that’s for an obvious reason.
Then the very taxpayers who are being victimized end up paying for that lawsuit. Meanwhile, the ones who committed the crimes are given a vacation (without pay, if we're lucky) before everything blows over and it's back to their criminal behavior.
Yes, do check the VIN, as I've seen classic vehicles advertised by the wrong year model. In one case, the seller had bought two vehicles from an estate sale, and just took it on faith as to the year models. Failure to match the VIN to the title could have led to a cascading series of complications.
@@Jack_Russell_Brown, got quite an education there from you. My experiences were with sellers who didn't know the year model of what they were selling. Have also learned that some Ford pickups (leftovers?) were titled for a seemingly incorrect year. Thorough scrutiny is called for.
@@Jack_Russell_Brown Some states title new vehicles the year they were sold. I bought a 1960 Edsel once that was a one owner South Dakota car. It was titled as a '59 because it was bought new in the fall of that year. A lot of military Jeeps and trucks have civillian titles from the year they were bought surplus, not year of manufacture. Also I read that back in the sixties, Honda would ship huge batches of bikes without a year designation. They were titled as they were sold so it is not uncommon to find mid sixties build bikes with legal, numbers matching, titles listing them as late sixties or even early seventies bikes.
@Steve Lehto above headliner cars used to have sheets of paper with all kinds of info on vehicle. Numbers for engine, etc... don't know if the data sheets are still currently there or not
@@lordgarth1NO! The firewall is not the determining VIN. I don't know who told you that, but they lied. Legally the window/A pillar is the identifying tag as stated in the video. The firewall VIN is not the VIN mentioned. The Firewall VIN is located in the engine bay on the firewall.
@@Official_R_P_Aon modern cars the dash/a pillar vin location is the one that gets modified when flipping stolen cars. Which is why they check the firewall, floorpan etc. But this car is older than that and more likely to have received other parts legitimately during repairs.
Early cars contained a lot of wooden parts. That is why we call the floor of a car the floorboard. Likewise, the vertical divider between the engine compartment was made with a sheet of metal to prevent grease and oil fires from easily penetrating the passenger compartment. That is why it is called a firewall.
@@Wrkncacnter777 I don't, because if I sm paying them, I don't give a hoot what OEMs like. They want me to cater to their preferences, they give me the product free.
For those who've never heard the tale: Back when Henry Ford was really getting going, and supplying parts to his factories was a sought-after gig, parts, particularly large castings, were shipped in wooden crates, and he specified that the crates had to be of a certain size, the story being that was what worked best with his loading docks and warehouse. Nope - that was so he could knock the crates down and use them as floorboards, truck beds, tailgates etc without spending a cent on them.
Dash board is another term like floor board that comes from the old horse carriages. Dash boards would help protect the riders from debris kicked up from horses when they were dashing. @@Wrkncacnter777
I was watching a video about the car from Night Rider. They were looking at the VIN, that was on the door jam. Then the guy making the video noticed something that proved this was one of the cars from the show. There were several "scars" near the VIN where someone had taken a TIG welder to it. In an episode the car is being worked on, and you can see a welder doing something in the very spot where the scars were. That was really cool.
In the hotrod scene it's not uncommon to switch firewalls, not all cars/trucks came with factory A/C and the firewalls were different. If you had a 68' Camaro without A/C you would replace the firewall with one from a factory A/C car that wasn't to rusted out to save the complete car. It is a big job, but I have seen it done many times.
The problem is law makers have written the law so that if you do major work proof is required and a new vin is issued killing the value. The process of getting a state issued vin is pretty easy. I have done it a few times with cab swaps on pickup trucks.
@martyk1156 if you do a complete cab swap yes, but if you are only replacing say the cowl panel on a 70's F100 as long as you document through pictures the original VIN plate on the rotted out cowl and document the removal of the VIN tag you can place it on the new cowl panel without having to make any changes to your registration or title. If it is not a repop part and is out of a junkyard, you have to show proof of purchase from that yard. Honestly these days most people would rather have a super nicely customized car instead of a numbers matching car anyway, I mean who wants to feel guilty about driving their 69' Boss 429 around town.
@@marvinturnmire7406 well I am taking on a neighbors philosophy on driving boss 429 numbers matching. He had a nicely restored model A that he drove 10 miles to town for lunch on every day the weather was nice. He also drove it to car shows and did well in them. I asked him about feeling guilty about driving it , his response was, " my kids or grand kids don't care about the car so I am going to enjoy it as much as I can " he passed away a few years ago and I'm not sure what happened to the car but he was happy driving it after putting all the hours in restoring it.
@martyk1156 Cars are meant to be driven, I will never own a trailer queen. As far as Cobra's and Boss's they deserve track time or at least some autocross action to show off their abilities.
I had a friend who was writing a book about a certain type of collectable firearm. Think 6 figures and only around 100 in existence. A guy contacted him and mentioned he used to own one that was stolen a few decades back, and he provided pictures. Another guy contacted him and was the current owner of the same gun. If you looked closely you could see that an extra digit was added to the serial number that didn't quite match the other numbers and was also obviously out of sequence. The current owner had bough it decades before from a store that was long out of business and the original owner had received a large insurance payout and didn't want it back after my friend put them in touch with each other. I don't know if anything beyond that was resolved, but with large amounts of money at stake there was the potential for the innocent new owner to take a big loss.
The car was returned to its original owner. Was this guy not insured? and if he was insured won't the insurance company come after him now. And since that car has several VIN on different parts including I am guessing the VIN listed on the title of the guy who owned just now, isnt he now in possession of at least part of a car that was never his?
but the ridiculous part of the laywer's vin claim was that they didn't say there were any other vins on the car? They just said thats the one on the firewall. and it may not have been insured, if it was for a sport only it may have only had track insurance. and also a lot of insurance company's won't help out if its seized by the cops cause its "not theft". I feel like the cops are def in the wrong cause like, they basically did what they wanted with no oversight here as far as the handling of the vehicle, but i can't say i don't feel like the og owner doesn't "deserve" to have his car back ofc he does! But that leaves new owner guy, who also just had to endure being bullied by the boys in blue, so i have some kind of reparation comes from the state, at least for jumping the gun on the court order. If this vin was on the insurance/ this is the only vin then there is no real issue
@@lordgarth1 doesn’t matter what the prosecution says. Statutes of limitations exist for a reason. The original owner would have gotten the insurance payout already for it and the vehicle which has been missing for 20 years may have been sold multiple times. The fact remains it’s no longer the original owners property once the statute of limitations takes effect. So not the original owner is not the rightful owner.
@@rjgaynor8 The statute of limitations prevents the state from prosecuting someone for a crime. It has no effect on the ownership of the car or the property rights of the original owner. The original owner still has a right to the car, you just can't prosecute the original thief anymore.
My nephew bought a 1957 Harley basket case, spent a year and lots of money to restore it. It was beautiful. He went to license it, put a tag on it, then a month later the cops came to get the Harley. He was almost arrested for theft, but he had proof of where he bought it and from whom. Plus all the work and parts he put into in. He lost the bike, but was not arrested.
@@dsloop3907yeah sounds like the bike belongs to a cop or a friend of a cop. There is no world where if he could prove he purchase the parts that they get to keep them. If he could prove he purchase the parts and he could prove it came as a basket case it's basically a done deal that he gets to keep his property unless he LETS them take it .
If you violate a court order, the judge should have you arrested. Throw those cops in jail.
you misspelled the word shredder
I see what you did there! Lol
@@SkyboxMonster "If you violate a shredder"? 🤔 lol jk. I know you meant "Throw the shredder in jail."
You're not bound by a court order until you're notified about it, and (despite the video title) Steve made it fairly clear that the guy's own lawyer acknowledged that the cops were probably already loading the car on a trailer when he obtained the court order. And while neither the guy or his son were suspected of committing a crime, looking for a car that's thought to have been stolen is in fact looking for evidence of a crime, so it's unlikely that there's actually a legal defect in using a search warrant to locate and seize the car.
Who’s going to arrest the cops?
I find it hilarious that when my car was stolen, I could barely get the police to answer the phone. This guy has cops running across the country and seizing cars from people based on hard to see hidden VIN
Cops car probably.
Yeah, there is clearly some connection he has with one of them pigs
Back in 2013 a buddy of mine that owned dealership had 4 cars stolen. The police said it was a civil matter and wouldn't do jack shit. He even told them who took them. Nope, take them to court.
@@TheCheshireMadcat That's interesting because theft is not a civil matter.
@@rc01010101 That area has really crappy cops. Rumors of having to pay detective to investigate things.
So they took property that did not belong to them with no court order that called for it. That is theft. We really need to rewrite qualified immunity rules to be much more narrow in scope.
We just need to do away with it. The one exception of a "clean shooting" and similar situations so a cop can't be sued for just doing their job, but would be liable for anything outside of their job could be sued.
I'm sure they didn't realise that stealing was wrong, so that makes it all ok.
/s
@@darrylbarker505 Besides Connecticut and Colorado, who are the other two?
And if police officers violate the law, the punishment should be doubled vs what an ordinary citizen would get. If felony grand theft is normally 10 years, a cop doing it should get 20. Automatically, not reduced for any reason.
Narrowed to nil.
The cops need to be charged for contempt of court.
Grand theft Auto
If they acted against a court order, they should not be able to hide behind "qualified immunity" as they were *not* acting in the course of their duties. Instead, they should be charged with armed robbery, like anyone else who steals a car at gunpoint.
The biggest problem here is that the police didn't let the courts do their work, lied to the court, and essentially stole the vehicle. There's the distinct possibility that the man was made whole by insurance and that they could have simply settled by making the title clean. There's also the possibility that the firewall had been replaced due to major rust and other issues.
Felony grand theft. Should come with at least 10 years in jail, and the city should have to pay to replace it.
There's a few things that could have happened, and one of them is as you said. Steve chuckled because that's unlikely. Now, if the car had been completely stripped and parted out, then a chassis was purchased and everything else is random other cars, then yes it's more plausible, but the story also hasn't given us such details.
I also don't know how a ship of Theseus scenario would apply in law, because there's many arguments that can be made.
In this era isn't the firewall vin tag just riveted to the firewall? Nobody would ever swap that 😂
I wasn't aware that cops can so easily and frequently ignore and violate court orders, and then try to claim "qualified immunity"......every cop from whichever department, or state, involved, should be held in contempt, jailed, fined, and fired
@@hiddenInsight486the one on the dash usually is, but I do see a lpt of vim stamps in the frame between the engine and firewall. It's a place not worth trying to forge because if tampered with, it's very conspicuous due to the difficulty of access. You're options are to cut and splice, or grind and restamp, and stamping it is not something even a few number of ppl can do.
That's contempt of the court. The order says not to do that and they did...
So hold these cops in contempt.
They committed a felony. Armed robbery, possibly grand larceny depending on the amount.
If only.
Really.. 😂😂😂
You're not bound by a court order until you're notified about it, and (despite the video title) Steve made it fairly clear that the guy's own lawyer acknowledged that the cops were probably already loading the car on a trailer when he obtained the court order. And while neither the guy or his son were suspected of committing a crime, looking for a car that's thought to have been stolen is in fact looking fr evidence of a crime, so it's unlikely that there's actually a legal defect in using a search warrant to locate and seize the car.
@@suedenim9208Perhaps it was proper to search for, and seize, the vehicle but, if it's evidence of a crime, they should hold it until the investigation has completed and not just ship it quickly out of state. By then the court order would be received and a judicial determination could be made. It is not the job of the police to make that determination.
Too many cops are far too eager to violate people's rights. They think nothing of seriously disrupting someone's life on a whim. There needs to be serious consequences for these actions.
It's called the 2nd Amendment! Use it in its full force!
V
End Qualified Immunity
Similar thing happened to me for a motorcycle in GA 13 years ago. I was the one who had the bike stolen and it was sold to someone eho tried to register it and the VIN turned up stolen, the police contacted me but to recover it, I had to pay recovery and storage fees to the impound yardz which were thousands and not worth the bike. So that bike was actually stolen twice...
The cops who investigated the theft probably bought it for $500 at a police auction too shit sucks bro
the cop waited so their tow company friend would get to sell it cause they knew you would not bother paying the fee. the impound company sells and give the cop his cut. basic cop corruption 101.
Wa State did this to me, with my stolen 77 Celica. When it was stolen, I was mad. When it got found, towed, stored then sold at auction. It was done intentionally, to screw me. Revenge will be mine.
Sounds like some tow companies will try to use the law to take advantage of people. I live in Oregon and I had a tow company try to pin me for towing and storage of a Vehicle I sold two years prior.The new owner didn't transfer the title. I had proof of signing the title away, the bill of sale and had I notified the DMV of the sale. The tow company tried to get me on a technicality of it not having the sellers address even though DMV honored my notification. I talked to a few lawyers and threatened to sue them if a collection agency they hired damaged my credit score. They backed off.
@@seanlavelle344 tow company in Burien Wa stole my car, then sold it at auction.
My 77 Celica was stolen. Apparently they stripped it, and dumped it in White Center.
The tow company waited 5 weeks to notify me, they had my car. Gave me 3 days, to come up with $2500 in tow and storage. They then sold my car at auction. Then, since they only got $600, because it was stripped, they wanted the balance.
Even with police reports of it being stolen... I was victimized a second time by the predatory tow company, and given the dirtbags I spoke too, and the condition of their yard... I seriously think they are who stripped it.
I take Every opportunity I see, too cut hydraulic lines on tow trucks, and pull valve stems.
They no longer come help you. They hire idiots, that refuse to even try to get you going, they just tow.
Good story Steve. Quick question.
If the original owner of the stolen car received an insurance settlement for the stolen vehicle wouldn’t that also mean that he gave up legal interest in it?
Shouldn’t the car have been returned to the insurance company?
Just what i was thinking
I had the same question.
Yes if he has been paid for the car. If it is ever recovered they would be the owner then they'd auction the car off to get their funds back
This happened to me. I had a bike stolen, got an insurance payment about half of what it was worth. (I fought them for 6 months over that.) A year later the police recovered it, the insurance company took it, and sold it at auction. I went there to buy it back, and it ended up going for twice what they paid me for it.
Fuck the insurance companies!
@PGGraham why I never take ghe first offer also keep all maintenance bills because the most recent they'll usually refund you for because when they auction the car they'll get more has worked twice for me 1 at fault 1 not
If the car was stolen 20 years ago and insurance paid the original owner...how does that original owner have claim rights?
He doesn't.
Simple. Under the law, it goes to the last legal owner, and that is not the insurance company!
@@l.clevelandmajor9931 IRC If u accept claim u sign off if they are recover it.
If the original owner had theft insurance then he got paid for the car for what it was worth at the time. Clearly 20 plus years later any muscle car will be worth more now. It would seem to me that original owner would have to pay back the money from the insurance company, most likely with interest if he still wants the car back. The current owner is pretty much screwed for the money he spent on the car to purchase it unless he can still find the person that sold him the car. His best hope is the original owner would not want the car back if he has to pay back the money that his insurance company paid him for the stolen car. The only winners here are going to be the attorneys that will be representing the people involved.
@@frankjohnson6342 Yeah, the attorneys attached to the case will be raking money in, and serving little purpose for their clients.
There is a legal term for taking someone's car "without legal authority" to do so. It still boggles the mind how the law doesn't apply, depending on who commits the crime.
In Tennessee it's called "conversion."
Those tasked with enforcing the law soon believe themselves above it.
Would that term be "Grand Theft Auto"?
If you're working in water treatment plant you don't get convicted of reckless endangerment if you miss a safety check. If you're an airline pilot you get a writeup for missing a procedure, you don't go to jail for it. This is what people don't understand about qualified immunity; it's the same as any other job that has responsibility. There's going to be mistakes and if you prosecute every cop for "kidnapping" if they arrest the wrong person or "theft" if they seize a car you'll just end up with zero cops. If you want people to take responsibility you can't crucify them for being human.
@gorkyd7912 Calling it a "mistake" is feigning ignorance. It's like saying the guy that pissed in pickles at burger King just "made a mistake" or "he didn't know he couldn't do that".
This is why qualified immunity needs to be revoked. The police and the department should be held liable for replacing that car with a equal replacement and lawyer fees.
Actually typical US: TRIPLE damages AND RICO charges - obviously the police department is going criminal, organization.
Why it was a recovered stolen vehicle.
Qualified immunity is just that-qualified.
It's that judges and prosecutors tend to expand what is within the scope of a government worker's job to be included, even if it's borderline criminal.
@@lordgarth1because they broke the law in recovering the vehicle. Remedying a crime shouldn't allow police to commit a crime themselves
Because they recovered a stolen car? Dream on lol
Those cops that illegally stole the man's car should be at the very last fired right? Those cops had legal authority to search the property for evidence of a crime, the car was seized unlawfully, therefore they stole his car, whether or not it was stolen before it was sold to him.
It's actually quite common to replace firewall, cowl, quarter panel, b pillars, floor pans and a pillar on a lot of classic cars I've done several myself to replace rotted metal
In UE if u do around VIN plates u must hold old number plate, sometimes i seen welded on some support just "it's here" or u can go to county inspection with old numbers and get stamped same number in same place
Multiple LEO departments spent weeks investigating a 20 year-old car theft case... so much for a lack of resources, one would think they would have had better things to be doing... and just let the courts sort it out... 😒
[Multiple LEO departments spent weeks investigating a 20 year-old car theft case]
Sounds like budget cuts are in order.
Of course the judges should handle it, Detectives in the police department investigating crimes would just be silly. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@stoney2732 They had 6 detectives working on it round the clock, Lebowski.
You know, I am losing respect for law enforcement every passing day when I read and hear stories like this.
when I was a kid I looked up to the police, when I was a teenager I ran from them but still respected them. when I was in college I thought they were the good guys. now that I'm middle aged, all of that goodwill is gone and it's completely the fault of their own profession.
Real question is why did you ever respect professional hall monitors
Don't lose respect for law enforcement that makes as much sense as losing respect for white people because one guy in Florida tried to rob a burger king with a crocodile. Lose respect for THESE law enforcement officers certainly. More importantly who is responsible for their actions hold them accountable.
Wait until a group of boots beat you half to death and then lie and say you assaulted them. 🤣
Back the blue until it happens to you!
It's amazing that these cops will violate every constitutional right in order to search and seize a car stolen 20 years ago but Houston cops wont retrieve a Tesla stolen this month that is sitting in an apartment complex parking lot.
Everything you said about the firewall is accurate and likely the case, but, it can sometimes get really complicated when dealing with old cars- It's not unheard of to replace/ heavily modify the firewall (or large sections of it) due to a full restoration, resto modding, or performance upgrades like fitting a bigger motor, transmission, turbo, or exhaust system.
I knew someone who went full tube chassis in a unibody car and built their own firewall because it was easier than trying to modify the original... This brings that old thought experiment to mind, the one about replacing every single piece on a wooden ship over many years. Is it still the same boat? What if somebody collected all of the old pieces, as they were being replaced, then used them to build a "second" sister ship? How far through the process is it considered a new ship? 50%? 100%? and at what time is it considered a new ship? After the second ship (with the original parts) is fully built? Half way built?
Right I mean I got a 1977 Camaro I'm working on I'm doing a full floor replacement so idk why he thinks it's crazy to have to swap core structure components. Lol "I've never heard of anyone doing that" well you clearly aren't a car guy sometimes you got to replace these parts if they are old and from the rust belt lol this is the problem with lawyers they represent people in jobs they have no understanding of look at Rittenhouse lawyers clearly had no understanding of self defense Rittenhouse house nearly went to jail because of his braindead defense 😒
@@cch201992 I did the floor pans on a '76? Firebird with a friend a while back. Both of us thought it was going to be a nightmare, but once we got it stripped down it was actually quick and pretty easy. We didn't have a lift and neither of us knew how to weld back then (a third friend tacked them in for us). That car was so nice to work on, modern cars are such a pain.
I'm looking for a cool G-body right now, maybe an El'Camino if I can find one.
I agree. I have a 66 cyclone convertible I am working on that basically needs everything from between the door hinges up replaced from a donor. So basically replacing most of the fire wall including where the VIN is located. At least, that will be the easiest way to go about it. Regardless, the part of the cowl that has the VIN needs to be replaced. They even sell reproduction sheet metal for the very place that the VIN is located. It's just extremely expensive and working from a donor is cheaper and easier.
This is a very common issue on the mid/late 60's Fords including the Mustang. The cowl design for water drainage resulted in a lot of rust in the cowl area.
But for all intents and purposes, Steve is right. It's the last part of a car that is stripped, and it's clear that the criminals swapped the cowl/VIN tag area. It wasn't the only part of the car that was stollen.
Check your vin if buy any vehicle, it tells everything about the vehicle, motor, axles power steering, ECT. People take the good stuff off and replace with base model stuff.
Would the original owner have been paid insurance for their loss? Would the Insurance Company then have some sort of claim?
Aha my first thought!!
If the original owner was paid off by the insurance company, then the insurance company would then own the car.
@@howlinwulfThat and the statue of limitations had expired. 😮 crazy
Was wondering same thing! If insurance paid, the “was made whole” and insurance company would take possession of the title. They own the (missing) car now.
@@texasgirlmomx2342 Statute of limitation only applies to prosecution of the thief. And it's possible that interstate theft like this may not fall under statute of limitations laws. However, ownership is ownership regardless of the time elapsed.
Fun fact: a Camaro wrapped around a telephone pole is actually the official state tree of North Carolina.
Another fun fact, Charlotte NC, leads the nation in power poles knocked over, by cars with no drivers.
Wonder which state leads the nation in disassembled Camaros under tarps in trailer parks 😂
@@brentboswell1294
Florida. 😂
@@brentboswell1294California
🤣🤣🤣
I had the same thing happen to me in 1978. I purchased a ‘69 Corvette from a dealer lot. I did a lot of work to the car and then drove it to the police department to get the vin checked because it was an out of state title. I needed this check to obtain an Indiana title in my name. The Police informed me that the car was reported stolen in Michigan and they were impounding it. I got a lawyer but the cops gave the car back to the guy who reported it stolen before I could get anything filed in court. In fact, the day after it was impounded. He had sold the car to someone who gave him a bad check, hence the stolen vehicle report. My lawyer had to file suit in Michigan against the guy and I got an order which required him to return the vehicle to me. My lawyer said I should sue the Police Department to cover my fees, but I declined. If it hadn’t been for my Dad’s help, I could not have afforded to retain an attorney to recover my car. This experience had a lot to do with my deciding to go to law school and become a trial attorney.
That was a sweet story until the sad ending.
@@MWiggins-m2gyeah he definitely should have sued the police department that would have made it a happy ending
In 1978 it was nigh on impossible to sue the police (harder than today). Bivens pretty much gave cops a blank check to maim, murder, and steal. In 1982 they made it slightly less impossible.
my buddy told the lawyer he would let the man sue for him, on contingency at a 30% cut... his case was f-ed enough the lawyer wanted it.. he made bank... took 7 years but... most of that delaying from the states lawyers and the cities insurance companies lawyers.. in the end... he not only ended up with the vehicle back, but owning a property the city had confiscated from somebody, and had already been forced to pay out on since the owners didnt want the place back after they converted the home into a mental health facility and leasted it to a really shady clinic network.. that moved out after ownership changed and they were informed their rent would be moving up to market rate for the area rather then the less then 1/4th of that they were paying... they moved quick.. heh...
You should have sued the police office, maybe it would stop future issues.
If the original owner reported it stolen, then he was paid for the fair market value by his insurance company. The title would then change to the insurance company. Stupid cops gave the car to wrong party....
"fair value"... 😖. Insurance companies are scammers. Funny it's required by law, but the law doesn't protect the consumer at all.
YES!! This is what I came here to comment about. If the person who had it stolen was PAID by insurance company, then the insurance company owns the vehicle and the original owner needs to give it up or pay big time to get it back!
As someone who worked with my grandfather's classic cars, I've seen VIN's mismatch on vehicles quite a bit. Another collector had a piece of a car with a different VIN, one that was listed as stolen. Apparently it was parted out and the guy who started rebuilding the car originally got some of the parts from the junkyard, one of which being part of the stolen car.
Actually I've seen cars where the front was chopped to fix another car, especially if it was a side hit toward the rear. So you can easily have a fender VIN (what Steve talked about) not matching the dash (A pillar) VIN. That's why you see "parts matching" cars worth more money. Some are one axles, some are on radiator supports, some are on firewalls, some are on door pillars, some are on the hood (if the car had different hood options) and many can actually be seen fairly easily the older cars.
Modern cars like BMW and other higher end cars, sometimes have them in spots you have to drill and use a light.
By the by, people have rebuilt entire airplanes from just the data plate.
My vehicle also has the VIN stamped on the back on the engine block.
About that last point, assuming the original theft victim got a payout from his insurance company, he's *been* compensated. So he got paid for it 20 years ago and now he gets to have it back while a whole chain of previous owners have to chase each other down for compensation until they eventually run into the problem of finding the car thief from 20 years ago who stole it in the first place.
Hi Steve. I'm confused, the camaro in Baldwin was apparently registered with the VIN from the firewall. The Alabama dept. of revenue came looking for the car after a check of the database. How could there ever be a title on that car if the VIN was reported as stolen? Was it recovered and sold at auction by the insurance company? But they failed to clear the VIN after the auction? I think the police went out of bounds big time in this case and the city is going to pay for this. I hope you will follow up on this one because i'd like to see how this plays out.
I wouldn’t expect insurance to be involved. An insurance company would need to be the last titled owner of the vehicle before sending it through auction, so it would be register as owned by an insurance company instead of an individual if that was the case.
@@everettsgoldenduo4999 A friend of mine used to work for an auto auction company. Plenty of totaled vehicles are being auctioned by insurance companies with the last registered owner being the last name on the title, and it's up to the buyer to complete the chain-of-ownership (which often requires fake signatures). Often these vehicles are not even roadworthy, but also do not have Totaled titles from insurance, leaving unscrupulous buyers the option of Band-Aid repairs and a quick flip for high KBB value.
My friend found a really nice condition '07 Dodge Caravan 4-cylinder, low mileage, ran and drove nicely, at auction. He slapped an auction plate on it, drove it out to my house, I test-drove it and gave it a thorough once-over. I let my mother take it for a ride, she liked it, she decided she wanted to buy it. As far as the title was concerned, a gentleman from Rhode Island sold the van directly to my mother. In reality, he traded in the van at a dealer, the dealer sold it to another dealer, that second dealer took the car to auction, it was purchased at auction but payment fell through, was re-auctioned, no buyers were interested, so my friend asked the seller how much they'd take for it.
"Buy Here, Cry Here" dealers are just as bad. Friend of mine bought a car from one of those (Geo Storm), the Dodge dealer across the street took it as trade. There was no transfer of ownership from the previous owner to the Dodge dealer, and no transfer of ownership from the Dodge dealer to the other dealer. In order for him to register the car, the Dodge dealer faked signatures from the previous owner transferring ownership directly to my friend as a Private Sale.
Unless the insurance considered it a total loss and owner oped to keep it and restore it then sold it the insurance company would have had to remove it from stolen and report it as scrap if one or both where not done and the original owner sold it or his next of ken did the state may have miskedma it complete , and just issued new certificate of title. As one of the whole problems is where is the true title lay as the state destroy the actual mso and issues certificate of title not the actual true title. A certificate of title is only evidence title exist somewhere but where that is in the state.
Hand written bill of sale.
@@snellsworld2648 Yeah. You have to watch out for those. Even though most of the time the deal is completely legit. People do make mistakes. Not to mention just be downright nefarious. You can never really know until you actually go and get it registered. Which is why you should only do that when you already have some rapport with the other party imo. But I realize that is not always feasible.
I am angered! That you made me realize that 2 decades ago was 2003.
Thank you for not saying VIN number.
Departament of redudancy departament....
:)
Because of situations like this, when I was searching for a classic Porsche roadster I did extensive background checks on the two that it came down to. There was a 911 Carrera not a roadster but still an amazing car. But the 911 came up with a warning on the VIN which the dealer had not disclosed to me. So I demanded My hold money back and shamed them for not telling me. Ultimately I found my classic Porsche roadster and she was completely clean on the title. One owner, and she only needed a little work. She is now like new and I an thrilled every time I hop in the driver's seat. This is a really great video Steve!
Something that amuses me is the workmanship on a non-original car is often way above that of the factory production line. I've actually heard someone complain that their concours restoration was compromised by the neat work the body shop did applying seam-sealer after replacing rusted floor pans.
“Over-restored”!
There's ignoring a court order, that's awful by itself, but this is worse as they did the exact opposite of what they were ordered to do. Amazing that they were getting rid of it at the exact same moment there was a court order telling them not to was granted. It is also a perversion of justice for the police to have also broken into the son's property, I hope the officers get absolutely reamed by the court... But they probably won't be. 😔
I'm betting they knew the first owner, no other way they would move that fast and give that many fucks.
@@TheCheshireMadcat I admire the way you stated that...
Mistakes were made, many fucks given
What's more, getting rid of the car so quickly sounds like disposal of evidence to me. If they got a search warrant to search for it, and then immediately decided to just get rid of it from the whole state, then I'm assuming they wanted to make sure the owner never got their day in court.
No chance the officers will pay any personal price for what they did. Their department will pay out any claims.
Why is it that the benefit of the doubt is always given to the state offical when it comes to "intent" these officers knew exactly what they were doing. They should 100% lose their QI and be criminally liable.
because government officials are okay when they dont know the law, but everyone else needs to know it.
Why? For using a valid search warrant to lawfully seize the car before the court order was issued?
My wife and I find a Steve Lehto video every day.
It's a freak way to start the day.
Thanks Steve for letting us know your gearhead story.
I'm also an old gear head.
Hot rod magazine WAS my childhood.
Mad Magazine was mine, R.I.P., What! Me worry?
CarToons was mine, Trosley and the boys. Great stuff.
Dont most if not all states require a VIN inspection prior to issuing a title? Also, wouldn't the owner that had the vehicle stolen, have been reimbursed by his insurance? If the current owner wants to buy it, would you consider the value of the vehicle at the time it was stolen or currently, otherwise undue enrichment?
What if that last guy put on new tires? Now are his tires stolen? Taken across state lines making it a federal felony? New wipers, oil, air freshener...
Better check who produced the engine.
Great video. Learned a lot like if a cop shows up claiming my car is stolen to ask: "Do you have a court order?" (No? Then how do I know, you aren't stealing my car?)
It hurts to buy a stolen car. It hurts a lot more to have a classic car stolen. Nice t-shirt.
@tripplefives1402 😄
That's why in my 98 Audi 80 are three tracking devices, two Air Tags and Android phone integrated into electrical installation.
I watched a shop install a new firewall in a 1968 Camaro. The car was stripped to the bare shell in preparation. It took an enormous amount of work. When it was time to reinstall the VIN tag the police had to be involved. This is in Ontario, Canada. It is something that can be legally done if you have an enormous amount of paperwork.
Isn’t it welded in to the rest of the chassis? Wouldn’t it have to be cut out?
@@unclerojelio6320 So they welded it!
@@unclerojelio6320they are riveted
It's exactly the same way in the US. Removing and replacing a VIN is a crime unless done properly
@@drewschumann1 you can have a car with mulit vin if it was chopped and re-welded. Lot of restoration companies do that. Make 1 good car out of several old ones. Why because not aftermarket part are available
vins ore also on the firewall behind the motor and also stamped on the metal frame, and some are on a card and dropped down inside the front doors
If you buy a stolen car, knowingly or not, it is not yours. The officers obviously abused their power and probably did so criminally as a search warrant is not a court ordered seizure of property. Great vids and content :)
If not, it can be yours, if it's stolen for more then 5 years, and no proof that the current owner is the stealer, it's yours
@everythingpony I think Steve said that isn't the case. He said the guy in the story he just told is likely not getting that car back despite the theft happening 20 years ago.
Steve explaining all the VIN positioning and variation, remained me of Ian from forgotten weapons explaining all the various marking differences on guns! Love it!
Pretty sure when most people "improperly seize" something, the court has a different word for that...
‘Asset Acquisition’
Excellent job explaining VIN number switching so non-car people can understand it. I was raised in a car family and still have collector cars myself. Years ago a convertible 1968 Camaro I was looking at had mismatch VIN's. We always check and expect any buyer to check the VIN number's in multiple places.
He wasnt right tho. Cause ive replaced a firewall in a gtx. Its not uncommon at all in restorations.
“Collectible and Classic” cloning and “restoration” is now big business. I’ve seen at least 1000 67 Camaro Z-28s, with Z-28 emblems, or RS hide-away headlights, GM made something like 200 of them, none had emblems, the only place that “Z28” appears is on the options list and build sheet. RS/SS can be decoded from the VIN and body tag. I spent a year or more chasing down the original 327 for a 67 RS that I restored and showed years ago. I can only imagine what you would have to do and spend to find an original date appropriate DZ engine now!
Steve, you’re mostly correct, but there are several instances where a firewall can be swapped, and it’s much more likely to be on an old, rarer car.
Sometimes the engine can be pushed into the firewall after a front end damage. The firewall can also be heavily corroded, usually at the top. So when someone buys an old car and goes to restore it, they literally look for cut up old cars and WILL replace ‘skeleton’ parts.
When you see a car stripped bare, if it’s an old car, the carcass still has value.
Will the owner who gets the car back need to reimburse his ensurance company if they have payed him for the stolen car?
What about the intrest rate/inflation? How does this work in the US?
I am going to state this because it needs to be said. Firewalls are replaced in many restorations due to rust, damage, or not having the correct holes for options added during restoration. It is common.
Common added options during restoration are A/C, power brakes, vacuum assisted breakes, automatic or manual conversions, and others.
This is so common that the practice has a slang name called resto-mod. Very few restorations are actually numbers matching (VIN) or complete original restorations.
Replacing a firewall is not "common". When a car has a firewall that's so rusty that it needs replacement, usually the rest of the car is also rotten and it's not worth restoring. The parts car you need to donate the parts would become the car to restore.
If the firewall doesn't have the right holes for the options you're putting in, a restorer will simply cut the holes in. Nobody's replacing the firewall because of a few missing holes.
@@e-curbthey are doing it
your argument boils down to "I wouldnt do it, so nobody else would either, therefore its not common!"@@e-curb
It can be done, but that doesn't mean it won't be a pain in the azz, so generally unless absolutely necessary body people avoid it.🤷♀️
@@styleisaweapon Wrong. My argument is that swapping a firewall in a rotten car is so expensive that anyone with half a brain wouldn't do it.
I feel sorry for both people.the last owner had thought he bought a legit car and finds out parts on it were stolen. I am sure this is one of many that this has happened to.
I wonder if the owner who had his Camaro stolen was compensated by his insurance company? I'm not suggesting he isn't entitled to getting his stolen car returned to him (or her), but 20 years ago it was hard to obtain full-coverage insurance on muscle cars from the 60's & early 70's... I don't know about now, but my parents had a Mustang 429 CJR that they bought new around '71 and out of the blue around 2002 their insurance company simply stopped offering full coverage for it (even though it was barely ever driven).
Most people don't have full coverage on an old car they are driving.@@PureMagma
@@PureMagma lol 1970 . $4000
This reminds me about an investigation into an upscale jewelry store in New York City over stolen diamonds.
On 60 Minutes, they mapped out this high grade diamond on a ring. The map was this kind of finger print/VIN number, and it was fully recorded and documented.
With under cover video, they had a person go in there to get the ring appraised. A clerk at the jewelry store took the ring to the back to get it appraised.
The clerk came back with their appraisal and the 60 Minute staffer left with the ring.
The ring was then analyzed and the jewelry store switched the diamond.
Later, the store owner was confronted with the charge and all hell broke loose.
Never knew what happened to the jewelry store, but cars are not the only area where this happens.
I remember that episode
@@JudyHart1 the look on the owners face, when confronted, was priceless. Then they ran to the back of the shop.
I didn't see the follow up, and I still would like to happen to them.
60 Minutes was good back then.
I spent about ten minutes looking for that episode. It's a shame I can't find it.
Hi Lehto, THX for another great video. Albeit I'm viewing this video a year late.
As I recall, VIN numbers on "normal passenger vehicles" are guaranteed unique within a 30 year period. At least I was told so when writing type approval apps for vehicles 20 years ago.
Trailers often have primitive serial numbers such that every model may have VINs number 000001, 000002, etc.
Custom built extreme vehicles , like a 25-axles platform may have no VIN number at all. In Denmark, such vehicles get special permits for specific transports - and the registration plate on the vehicle contains the permit number. No VIN involved.
I assume the "Beast" is so heavy from protection gear that it falls into HGV weight territory. Probably special rules for the Beast.
Best Video I've ever seen from you, excellent explanation of the firewall VIN
The problem with the car being returned to the person it was stolen from is that most likely, not definitely (gotta choose the words corectly here), but most likely, that person was already made whole (See? Some of us do pay attention and we retain terminology that we otherwise wouldn't know about lol.) by their insurance company. There is a slight possibility, a very slight one, that the car didn't have insurance, but in 2003, a 35 year old car which was well into its own collectibility? I'd say the odds are extremely slim that it wasn't covered against theft. He's got a car that doesn't belong to him, and he knows it, all because he didn't bother to notify the investigating department that he had been paid off. That car needs to be given back to either the insurance company or the guy that the police stole it from, and because he most likely accepted the car back under false pretence, he needs to be charged with receiveng stolen property and/or insurance fraud.
When a vehicle is totaled via theft you’re always required to mail the signed title to the insurance company. That company would have been the last registered owner of the vehicle and it would have been returned to them instead in that case.
Like the insurance company won’t pay for the vehicle until they have the title in hand, so I’d assume that the previous owner didn’t have it insured when it was stollen
I love Steve for going to serious pains to avoid saying “VIN Number”.
Excellent explaination of the legal system Steve. One question however is if the insurance company paid off aren't they the legal owner of the property now, and shouldn't the get the car?
I was wondering this as well.
I see this question come up so much, and even if he's done a video on it before, he really needs to do one.
As for the question, no they don't. They are not "buying" the car from you when they give you a payout on it. They are reimbursing you for your loss, theoretically from the money that you have paid in. This is the purpose and intent of insurance. I really don't get why so many people think the insurance company has 'bought' the car when they do a total loss payout. It isn't like your medical insurance provider has bought a portion of your body when they help cover a major surgery, so why would other types of insurance be different?
@@Razmoudah does that mean the IC can claim the $$ back?
@@allanjacobs5342 **sigh** No, because the money that the insurance company pays to you is the money that you paid to them to help cover you in the event of a major loss. Well, technically you and all of their other customers, and if you never make any major claims then it can be viewed as you assisting the insurance company in being able to pay those customers.
Imagine for a moment that you have a special savings account that you use exclusively for helping pay certain large bills that may or may not come up but that you would have problems covering within your normal finances. When one of those particular large maybe bills comes up you withdraw money from it to cover said bill. Do you HAVE to pay that money back? Not necessarily, but since this special savings account has almost no interest it is generally considered a good idea to keep paying into it regularly so that there is money there for when the next of those large maybe bills happens, if it happens. In a very crude sense, this is how insurance works. The difference is that the insurance company is financially capable of paying out to you several times what you have paid in since that large maybe bill might happen long before you've actually 'saved' enough to cover the entirety of it from your insurance payments. This is also why people who make more frequent insurance claims have higher rates, it is a reflection of the fact that the insurance company is taking a greater risk of suffering an overall loss in relation to what that person has paid in.
If you find a strongly reputable life insurance company and look at the full details of how a Whole Life policy works you can see this broken down in far better detail, especially because most of the companies that offer such policies have it so that once it has accrued a certain amount of value you can take out a loan against the policy to help cover sudden large life expenses (though until said loan is paid back any final payout from the Whole Life policy will be reduced by the remaining value of the loan). Although that is one of the few types of insurance policies that can be used in such a secondary manner. The principals that make it possible for them to offer such a secondary feature are inherent to ALL insurance policies, from life to auto to home to medical to professional.
They don't own the car but they can sue anyone and everyone involved in costing them that insurance payout.
“It’s probably bad luck anyway, to play with it on the set“. Lol 😆 😅😊.
Good work young Lehto ! Love the channel
A Jeep gets firewalls removed all the time. Body swaps are common. I was also told by the secretary of state that the hidden VIN numbers on an older Jeep apparently are not on the body.
So basically, judges are incompetent and allow police to do nearly anything. But occasionally, the 1 good judge out of 100 will question the legality of previous judges but throw the accountability to the police.
And you can get in trouble despite a judges authorization. I was arrested after a judge allowed me to go to my sons school during my divorce. The school and the police disregarded the court order.
@@reedc18of course they did cop probably knew ya ex.
But cops for real do not care
And hence the slow move, at some point, for AI in the justice system on all levels. An AI may be not perfect, but it will not be THAT incompetent.
Where I live, judges are not infrequently the attorneys who were too incompetent to make it in private practice or are nothing but political party hacks. They see themselves as part of the prosecution team in criminal cases and nobody gets a fair hearing.
Which is then dismissed by another or the same incompetent judge as "qualified immunity". Qualified immunity needs to be either outlawed or signed into law and given a clear legal description.
It could be increasingly difficult to pursue the guy who sold him the stolen car for a refund, especially if he bought it a while ago, but suing the cops might get him monetary compensation instead. At the very least in this case, the original owner got his car back.
Original owner got a free upgrade/repair. The Camero was put back together, fixed up, and cleaned up.
@@MagicHamsta And if the original owner got paid off by his insurance company he should have to repay said insurance company otherwise I believe it to be unjust enrichment, i.e. he got the money and he gets the car.
At the least, the original owner should give the insurance money to the latest guy.
@@steveb9487
Any insurance claim would have transferred ownership to the insurance company. If in fact a claim was paid the original owner no longer has any claim to the car.
@@kennethstaszak9990exactly same argument I made. If he's been paid then it's no longer his car it belongs to the insurer
I have a question Steve. By the way, I saw you on the documentary about the Chrysler turbine car, good job! If the original owner was paid out by the insurance company, he shouldn’t have any more claim to the car, correct? If he did and then took possession of the car back, would he not owe the insurance company money in order to keep it?
Great question!!
Wish I had seen your comment B4 I placed mine.
Don’t know how the US works but in Canada once a claim has been settled between insured and insurance company, than the insurance company owns any property or items which were replaced or stolen. Here, the car would be returned to the insurance company who payed out the original claim and they would in turn offer to “sell “ the car back to the claimant, usually for the amount paid out.
Cops that took the car needs to be charged criminally with this
If the original and rightful owner of the car was compensated by his insurance company for the value of the car when it was stolen does the insurance company get the car? Does he have to pay the insurance company back? How does that work?
Ive seen a firewall replaced due to fire damage, I would like to know if in fact there were different VINs on different parts on the vehicle. If so, did they determine that the firewall was the most important one? I want to know that before i would say its THE vehicle in question. Love the channel!
They probably took the same stance as steve. The firewall is probably original due to how often theyre replaced. But when talking old cars things do end up getting replaced even if theyre considered core.
It's important if have Vin on it.....
Also wheel well in Audi's
Steve loves to tell us what he knows, whether it’s about various lawyerings, or about cars, and it shows.
"Deck lid" Whoa! I have learned quite a bit about cars today by watching this video. This is one of my favorites from you. I'm not a law student or a mechanic, so It helps when you simplify this information you're discussing. You're a great teacher! Thank you!
Oh, you mean the "Hood".
Funny...how so many vehicle parts have different names in different areas.
@@Delekham , I still haven't looked it up (deck lid) but I thought he was referring to the trunk . We're never too old to learn. LOL!
@@Delekham, I just looked it up and it's the trunk lid.
@@Delekham No he means the trunk. And it got that name because back in the 20s and 30's cars literally had a trunk back there that you put stuff in.
As a body technician that ran into this issue before. A salvage yard once sold the shop I worked for an entire firewall from a stolen Ford mustang (unknowingly).
The firewall and front frame rails had been damaged during an accident. So I cut the roof and the base of the windshield and the floor across the front. Then it lived out its life (years) until it was in a second accident and someone checked the vin. And they determined that some dumb moron didn't switch the vin at the base of the windshield when they cut it apart. 😅
I don't know what happened after that but I got questioned about it 5 years later.
Kudos for not saying “VIN number.” 😊👍🏻
You mean its not Vehicle Identification Number Number?
@@KNByam
😄👍🏻
The police should be sued over this for filing a fraudulent search warrant. They should have been able to look up when the last time that the car was registered to the new owner and seen that the statute of limitations had expired.
It's been a long time since I worked on a Camaro of any model but I do recall a lot of GM cars around that era also had the VIN stamped into the R/F chassis/subframe horn, which is a part that can be swapped out fairly easily. If that model had this type of construction, I would be interested to see if the VIN's matched.
Edit: As a side note, I seen a few cases where the section of firewall with the VIN on it has been cut out and welded into another firewall.
Most were pretty obvious but one was really well done as they had taken the time to make sure the cut edge was hidden by the firewall soundproofing. I only spotted that one because I was replacing the wiper rack and saw the back of the weld!
The other question is: Had the original owner been paid out by insurance? If so, doesn't the insurance company own the car?
Steve, I live in Kansas. Every time I buy a vehicle from out of state, in order to get a Kansas tag, I have to get it inspected by a local law enforcement officer. ALL he inspects is the VIN and odometer. He runs the VIN against a stolen car report. It is really strange that car was not apprehended sooner than 20 years.
That's what is really confusing me on this story. Most states require you to have Vins run by law enforcement if it is so old or out of state.
Its actually a common issue. Older vehicles pre-date national titling, originally they were issued a state registration-only. Many states still allow these vehicles to be bought/sold/on-road via registration-only, titling is extra cost/time so owners dont do it. If a vehicle is registered but not titled then it doesnt exist in the National Motor Vehicle TITLING Information System, so there's no way for law-enforcement to report/check if its stolen.
when someone steals a car it very likely they stash it somewhere out of sight, and they dont attempt to register or sell it for a long time thinking it has cooled off, this car could have easily been in storage somewhere for the past 20 years
I know a guy that replaced the firewall in mid-80's Trans Am that was only 18 months old. The previous owner ran into a sidewalk guardrail. The guardrail being hand made of 2.5 inch pipe ran through the front end into the passenger compartment literally between the legs of the driver and under the front seat, very lucky man. Damaged the frontend bumper, hood, radiator/condenser, engine accessories, and firewall. He got a donner car that was rear ended and with a lot of work ended up with a nice Trans Am. I wonder if the vin from the other car was on the portion that was replaced? I would think you would replace most of the firewall at that point as it would assure that the other dash components would be aligned properly.
I thought that 67-69 Camaros for a long time people were selling the vin tag alone for $5000. If the car was rusted out etc.
You can buy a whole body from many aftermarket places but to register it you needed a vin badge. So people would sell vin badges from completely damaged or rusted out cars..
So it seems like everything you’re saying about the firewall badge proving it being the stolen car is wrong. You would want to look at the other vins to prove it.
I have seen police ignore court orders many times. In one case I saw the judge adjourn court and walk to Police station and force the police to obey the court order. Police in some cases show incredible Hubris proficiency while at the same time being really crappy officers of the law.
I used to work in a race shop, where we took wrecked cars and would do whatever was necessary to make it race legal. We cut the front clip along with the firewall A pillars and back to rockers. Which included the door hinge mounting area. We replaced that whole assembly on a customer wrecked street and strip car that was wrecked during a race. After we finished fixing it it received a salvage title from Virginia where we were located. The owner took it to the police to get it approved by the police since it was a salvage title where it was seized for being stolen. It was the parts car that we had bought from a wrecking yard in West Virginia. It took months to prove the car wasn't stolen but eventually both parties got their car's back. The owner gave the original stolen car back minus the front clip (it had been hit in the rearend. The guy we built the car for had another car with the rear quarter and front of the body so he's could rebuild his car. It sucks they didn't find the car before we cut it up but since it was on a frame it wasn't too bad replacing the front of the body since it wasn't a load bearing structure like a unibody. And since it was cut up he wasn't going to restore it but instead turned it into a track only car.
Crazy story. When my family moved from Louisiana to Texas we had a Ford Aerostar. The VIN had a "B", but the DMV clerk in Texas wrote in an "8". When we traded the Aerostar in for a Mustang the dealership wasn't worried about the VIN. End of story, but it could have been bad when we moved back to Louisiana with the Aerostar.
Similar thing for me. I think it was a P and an 8, but it wasn't caught until my third year of ownership at the Emissions inspection station.
In Ind the VIN by law can have one wrong number and be legal. Cover type airor
Loved this story and thank you for sharing! Thoroughly enjoyed how you illustrated the VIN number locations etc. and laughed when you mentioned playing with your toys more often. :) We all should. :D Got on my computer later than planned. For the last 10 days been trying to catch a loose parakeet that kept showing up outside at my feeders. I got it right around the time I was going to get on the computer. *laughs* So I had to spend some time getting the new bird settled near my other parakeets so they can get acquainted. In a few days to a week I will move the new rescue bird from the little cage to the big one with my other keets. The first one I got a couple years ago was also a rescue from the outdoors. The 2nd one I actually purchased to keep the first one company. Thanks again for this story! It's great. - Heidi
Steve, some guys raced Camaro in the early years and butchered or even cut out the fire wall. When years passed by, these owners found that the car they chopped up is worth 6 digits now. They would go as far as to totally restore that car, look for parts, and actually, factory weld that fire wall back in. That's where these stolen parts become gold to the restorer.
Steve, I've watched you for several years - fascinating reports always. THANKS for all the great information!!
I am sick of saying it but I hope the officers are severely punished, for acting without a court order and then in direct opposition to another court order. I also hope the current owner is compensated and the car is returned until the issue is resolved.
My question is, how was this car registered for the last 20 years including the owner you mentioned in this story who had the car for several years. And if they cloned the vin how did the one on the firewall come to light ?
The states are now sharing more information than they used to. So. Cars with phony titles 15 years and 4 owners back are getting found. Even though they have been legal for years. Tough on the current owner.
@@bobmazzi7435 As a person who had a car stolen (1970 Malibu) over 30 years ago, if somehow MY car got returned to me, I would feel a little bad for the current "owner"....from a lot of the responses here, it sounds like almost all of you haven't had this happen to you....believe me, to this day I want that car back because IT'S MINE, I don't care who thinks they currently own it.
@@marks93cobraBut did you get an insurance payment for the car? There are a lot of issues not answered here. Like if the insurance paid out would the original owner be required to pay back the insurance company? Or does the insurance company take possession of the car because they paid for it? Steve, from all the questions that this raises in just my mind and the other questions, it seems that this could be a semester long class. Please let us know how this case proceeds.
@@timothyhoster4951 No, I got no money from the insurance company.
Statutes of limitations??
Yeah, you lost me on this guy's case too when you said it was the firewall. Nobody is parting that out lol. Thanks for the video!
the cops definitely did something wrong, but there's no way that it wasn't going back to the original owner eventually.
You know what bugs me most on this is the courts and system will track and look for a car for 20 years plus easily. But if you ever have a gun stolen they only keep it on the stolen list if you file a paper saying it’s still stolen every year. How many guns get stolen and then removed cause the person who owned it missed a deadline of returning that paper every year.
Just enough to make sure the people who shouldn't have guns (that includes those who need serious training) get them, even if it's illegally.
Not in Michigan. I had 2 stolen handguns returned many years later. I didn't renew any report. One was after about 10 years and the other was closer to 15.
Well gee, lets just create a gun registry and title every gun. that way we know who the owner of every gun is and where that gun is at all times.
@@daddio7249 That's why I got my handguns back in Michigan. We have handgun registration.
@@daddio7249 I mean we have drivers license and I don’t see them outlawing sports cars. Sure you can’t take a F-1 down the city streets but that’s for an obvious reason.
this is when folks you slap the town with a 300,000 dollar lawsuit for violating your rights. it happens all the time.
Then the very taxpayers who are being victimized end up paying for that lawsuit. Meanwhile, the ones who committed the crimes are given a vacation (without pay, if we're lucky) before everything blows over and it's back to their criminal behavior.
Yes, do check the VIN, as I've seen classic vehicles advertised by the wrong year model. In one case, the seller had bought two vehicles from an estate sale, and just took it on faith as to the year models. Failure to match the VIN to the title could have led to a cascading series of complications.
@@Jack_Russell_Brown, got quite an education there from you. My experiences were with sellers who didn't know the year model of what they were selling. Have also learned that some Ford pickups (leftovers?) were titled for a seemingly incorrect year. Thorough scrutiny is called for.
@@Jack_Russell_Brown Some states title new vehicles the year they were sold. I bought a 1960 Edsel once that was a one owner South Dakota car. It was titled as a '59 because it was bought new in the fall of that year. A lot of military Jeeps and trucks have civillian titles from the year they were bought surplus, not year of manufacture. Also I read that back in the sixties, Honda would ship huge batches of bikes without a year designation. They were titled as they were sold so it is not uncommon to find mid sixties build bikes with legal, numbers matching, titles listing them as late sixties or even early seventies bikes.
@Steve Lehto above headliner cars used to have sheets of paper with all kinds of info on vehicle. Numbers for engine, etc... don't know if the data sheets are still currently there or not
If u own a V-A Group car u still have sticker with codes in trunk under subwoofer
Great job Steve, love your site. BTW the Bat mobile hood is hinged in the front.
If it was stolen from me, I would want my '68 Camaro back.
You might get the firewall returned, the rest of the vehicle is legitimately owned by another.
@@Allangulon the firewall vin establishes the vehicle ownership. It’s why they stamp it down so deep there so you can’t easily put a fake one on.
@@lordgarth1
So, the other identification information found on the vehicle can be ignored?
@@lordgarth1NO! The firewall is not the determining VIN. I don't know who told you that, but they lied. Legally the window/A pillar is the identifying tag as stated in the video. The firewall VIN is not the VIN mentioned. The Firewall VIN is located in the engine bay on the firewall.
@@Official_R_P_Aon modern cars the dash/a pillar vin location is the one that gets modified when flipping stolen cars. Which is why they check the firewall, floorpan etc. But this car is older than that and more likely to have received other parts legitimately during repairs.
Early cars contained a lot of wooden parts. That is why we call the floor of a car the floorboard. Likewise, the vertical divider between the engine compartment was made with a sheet of metal to prevent grease and oil fires from easily penetrating the passenger compartment. That is why it is called a firewall.
These days we call it the dash panel, because OEM's are adverse to using the F word internally.
@@Wrkncacnter777 I don't, because if I sm paying them, I don't give a hoot what OEMs like. They want me to cater to their preferences, they give me the product free.
For those who've never heard the tale: Back when Henry Ford was really getting going, and supplying parts to his factories was a sought-after gig, parts, particularly large castings, were shipped in wooden crates, and he specified that the crates had to be of a certain size, the story being that was what worked best with his loading docks and warehouse.
Nope - that was so he could knock the crates down and use them as floorboards, truck beds, tailgates etc without spending a cent on them.
Dash board is another term like floor board that comes from the old horse carriages. Dash boards would help protect the riders from debris kicked up from horses when they were dashing. @@Wrkncacnter777
Hot rodders when dealing with original Ford sheetmetal have been known to replace firewalls either for structural or aesthetic reasons.
Gov't employees incompetence harming citizens?! I'm shocked.
What about the victim being paid by insurance after theft, dosen't insurance company own itcompany
I was watching a video about the car from Night Rider. They were looking at the VIN, that was on the door jam. Then the guy making the video noticed something that proved this was one of the cars from the show.
There were several "scars" near the VIN where someone had taken a TIG welder to it. In an episode the car is being worked on, and you can see a welder doing something in the very spot where the scars were. That was really cool.
Love the work that you do, and yes I’ve harvested a firewall and moved it to another cab . Some things you do once
In the hotrod scene it's not uncommon to switch firewalls, not all cars/trucks came with factory A/C and the firewalls were different.
If you had a 68' Camaro without A/C you would replace the firewall with one from a factory A/C car that wasn't to rusted out to save the complete car.
It is a big job, but I have seen it done many times.
The problem is law makers have written the law so that if you do major work proof is required and a new vin is issued killing the value. The process of getting a state issued vin is pretty easy. I have done it a few times with cab swaps on pickup trucks.
@martyk1156 if you do a complete cab swap yes, but if you are only replacing say the cowl panel on a 70's F100 as long as you document through pictures the original VIN plate on the rotted out cowl and document the removal of the VIN tag you can place it on the new cowl panel without having to make any changes to your registration or title.
If it is not a repop part and is out of a junkyard, you have to show proof of purchase from that yard.
Honestly these days most people would rather have a super nicely customized car instead of a numbers matching car anyway, I mean who wants to feel guilty about driving their 69' Boss 429 around town.
Agreed, I started doing it as a full numbers match rebuild on my 68 mustang, but decided it really was worth the hassle.
@@marvinturnmire7406 well I am taking on a neighbors philosophy on driving boss 429 numbers matching. He had a nicely restored model A that he drove 10 miles to town for lunch on every day the weather was nice. He also drove it to car shows and did well in them. I asked him about feeling guilty about driving it , his response was, " my kids or grand kids don't care about the car so I am going to enjoy it as much as I can " he passed away a few years ago and I'm not sure what happened to the car but he was happy driving it after putting all the hours in restoring it.
@martyk1156 Cars are meant to be driven, I will never own a trailer queen.
As far as Cobra's and Boss's they deserve track time or at least some autocross action to show off their abilities.
I had a friend who was writing a book about a certain type of collectable firearm. Think 6 figures and only around 100 in existence. A guy contacted him and mentioned he used to own one that was stolen a few decades back, and he provided pictures. Another guy contacted him and was the current owner of the same gun. If you looked closely you could see that an extra digit was added to the serial number that didn't quite match the other numbers and was also obviously out of sequence. The current owner had bough it decades before from a store that was long out of business and the original owner had received a large insurance payout and didn't want it back after my friend put them in touch with each other. I don't know if anything beyond that was resolved, but with large amounts of money at stake there was the potential for the innocent new owner to take a big loss.
A great laugh to see your Lemon Law plate from Quebec!
If the first owner was paid out for the car by his insurance company, then the insurance company now owns the car
The car was returned to its original owner. Was this guy not insured? and if he was insured won't the insurance company come after him now. And since that car has several VIN on different parts including I am guessing the VIN listed on the title of the guy who owned just now, isnt he now in possession of at least part of a car that was never his?
Statute of limitations was in effect when the car was seized. So it’s fully his not the original owners.
@@rjgaynor8that’s on prosecution doesn’t make the original owner no longer the rightful owner
but the ridiculous part of the laywer's vin claim was that they didn't say there were any other vins on the car? They just said thats the one on the firewall. and it may not have been insured, if it was for a sport only it may have only had track insurance. and also a lot of insurance company's won't help out if its seized by the cops cause its "not theft". I feel like the cops are def in the wrong cause like, they basically did what they wanted with no oversight here as far as the handling of the vehicle, but i can't say i don't feel like the og owner doesn't "deserve" to have his car back ofc he does! But that leaves new owner guy, who also just had to endure being bullied by the boys in blue, so i have some kind of reparation comes from the state, at least for jumping the gun on the court order. If this vin was on the insurance/ this is the only vin then there is no real issue
@@lordgarth1 doesn’t matter what the prosecution says. Statutes of limitations exist for a reason. The original owner would have gotten the insurance payout already for it and the vehicle which has been missing for 20 years may have been sold multiple times. The fact remains it’s no longer the original owners property once the statute of limitations takes effect. So not the original owner is not the rightful owner.
@@rjgaynor8 The statute of limitations prevents the state from prosecuting someone for a crime. It has no effect on the ownership of the car or the property rights of the original owner. The original owner still has a right to the car, you just can't prosecute the original thief anymore.
My nephew bought a 1957 Harley basket case, spent a year and lots of money to restore it. It was beautiful.
He went to license it, put a tag on it, then a month later the cops came to get the Harley.
He was almost arrested for theft, but he had proof of where he bought it and from whom.
Plus all the work and parts he put into in.
He lost the bike, but was not arrested.
Was he able to strip all of his property from it before it was returned to the rightful owner?
@@DerykRobosson no, he was just glad to be cleared of any wrongdoing.
@@dsloop3907yeah sounds like the bike belongs to a cop or a friend of a cop.
There is no world where if he could prove he purchase the parts that they get to keep them. If he could prove he purchase the parts and he could prove it came as a basket case it's basically a done deal that he gets to keep his property unless he LETS them take it .
Does original owner have to pay back insurance company for stolen car. I assume he had insurance on it.
He should be able to sue the cops and judge.