For anyone who doesn't understand: Ackley improved refers to an increased shoulder angle, allowing for more powder to fit inside. Since it isn't popular enough, ammo manufacturers don't make this ammo. So, chambers are made with the Ackley improvement, regular ammo is used, fired, then that fired shell has been reformed(this is called fireforming) into the Ackley improved cartridge, if the case didn't rupture that is. While some rounds may gain performance from the Ackley improvement, many other rounds will only gain a negligible amount. Ackley himself decided it wasn't worth it, but the name stuck.
It's not like brass get their whole volume filled with powder, and that can't be more than a 1% increase in total volume anyway. Unless you're making pissing-hot loads, _just why?_
Brother you should see inside the military industrial complex today. Trust me, they're way more geeked now than they were then. These mf are making weapons that can kill the world...makes small arms look like child's play 😂
@@Randald I was simply saying there is zero risk to doing it. As to more money, wtf are you talking about? So you don't know the topic, yet you feel the need to lecture on it? You do realize you can Google Ackley Improved chambers and learn all you need to know, correct?
I'm glad you said safe minimum. I remember reading that too little powder can destroy your gun. Before y'all shoot me down. It has to do with flame fronts and other abnormalities like all the powder is sitting on the one side of the case. A poor analogy would be pinging in your petrol engine. It's actually detonation of your fuel and not igniting it at the correct time. Pistons break and melt.
Or use a forming load with a pressure builder like rice or cream of wheat or something in front of the powder. You can use something cheap like a couple grains of 231 or Unique then.
I did it with rice when I was fire forming some .30/30 cases. My wife was really mad at me for firing blanks at the roof of her barn without telling her they were blanks. 😂
@@xagtly I really don't think people were gonna shoot you down dude, OP said "safest minimum" because he knew that underloading is dangerous, other people have this information too, it's not esoteric
It’s pretty effective on some cartridges. Very useful for controlling brass flow too. The 6.5x55, 22-250, and other highly tapered cartridges can achieve useful gains in performance, but it’s really good for limiting case length growth. As always, it doesn’t matter how fast it goes if you can’t hit anything. And yes, it does require its own loading dies and will not fit in a standard chamber. It’s not for guys that want to buy ammo and go shooting. It’s also inherently safe and does not add to load on the bolt face. It is also probably an anachronism now as there are all manner of factory cartridges produced but Parker Ackley came up with this effective solution many years ago when there was much less variety. Removing much of the case taper and sharpening the shoulder gave extra capacity and performance with no gain in pressure. I built quite a few .280 Ackleys for Thar and Chamois hunters in the Southern Alps and they worked well. BTW you can shoot standard ammo in an Ackley chamber, but not the other way around. You won’t be able to get an Ackley round into a standard chamber far enough to close.
With my precision rifles, I'll fire the brass once to fire form it to the chamber, and then just neck size it when reloading. Prefect fit in the chamber for the next firing.
True, but the brass should only be used for the gun it is sized for. Automatic or semiautomatic rifles should have the case full length sized so not to have loading problems, but yeah, for bench rest, it's the only way to go.
Guys like you should be ashamed that your toys aren't keeping America safe from the border invaders and corrupt government officials, like Michael Aquino.
What you will find is that if you fireform factory ammo and then full length resize each time you load it you will soon have a case head seperatation. Brass flows forward with each firing. The better way to do this is to take a once fired case from a standard chamber then neck size only but not the full neck. Leave a short distance of the neck that was not sized. This leaves a "bump" in the neck where it joins the shoulder. This bump will help hold the case back against the bolt face. There will be very little brass flow and a more accurate forming of the Ackley dimension "40 degree shoulder ". After 2 or 3 neck sizings you will notice that closing the bolt on the round will require a bit more effort. Then a full length resizing would be prudent.
Just use more powder. What could go wrong :D More seriously, even steel will expand a little. That's what allows it to seal when you fire. It might return to the original shape or expand but not conform to the ackley chamber though.
Yeah. For things that caught on. This "improvement" nets you just about nothing in performance and all you're doing is spending more on powder than if you just had a standard chamber.
Have to remember to mark the casings that come from my new rifle (not AI, just 30-06)... Have shot a few now so I have some fireformed and tons of non FF.
@@solzerid with the same weight of propellant and only a fractional increase in the volume that would only be possible if you actually changed the load...as in different powder and a lighter bullet or one or the other. Bullet diameter not changing and the case diameter being the same wouldn't give you any increase with the same exact load. Something in your load changed. A different chamber alone won't net you any gains if the only thing that changed was the angle of the shoulder. The physics simply aren't on your side with that claim. That tiny amount of space doesn't mean anything if you are using the the same exact load. It's dead space. You're not going to see an increase in chamber pressure, nor much in the way of velocity outside maybe a few extra fps, but that's so nominal that it happens in factory loads so it's basically nothing. There's a reason this didn't catch on and was basically abandoned.
This whole procedure once formed makes brass actually hold more powder, because most cartridges it is done with reduce body taper as well. Yes you use Ackley Improved reloading dies. Once converted you actually reduce case stretch actually extending case life. Now to convert the shoulder to throat junction is moved back a couple thousandths of an inch to hold the cartridge as it is fire formed so it does not shrink in length. This is for reloaders… Also you can use factory ammo Of the parent cartridge or if you are converting to a wildcat AI cartridge your fire forming ammo for hunting easily.. works great
I'm sure this would work great for many guns. But it's my understanding that for many automatic rifles That the taper is carefully chosen for proper extraction.
My grandfather's Uncle my great-great-uncle taught me about Fireform brass and he would use cream of wheat mixed very thick put it in the case in lieu of a bullet then fire it. You didnt need to go to the range to fireform brass you can do it in the garage.
@@koDaffi he was born in 1905 died in 2010, almost a hundred and 5. I was 22 when he died. He taught me how to reload when I was 11 and he was in his 90's.
I'm not sure of what you even call a tool to machine the thickness of the neck where you see the bullet so that the outside and the inside are concentric so wind Chambers if you inject the same shell you'll see all the lands all the way around the bullet because it was centered in the bore
@@willestus9120 it's a concentricity tool. It's not needed unless u do compatition shooting. Since u don't know what it is I'm assuming u don't shoot compatitions so life is good. If a bullet isn't fully engaging the rifling something is very wrong. I pick up all bullets to recast into cannon projos for 40mm & 3" (76.2mm) so I have seen such things after seeing hundreds of thousands of shot bullets but not many at all. The last ones I recall seeing were 9x39mm steel 250gr bullets for subsonic use used in an AK9. I looked it up. I never heard of it untill finding the 9x39 shells & bullets, the rifling wasn't even & concentric at all on some of them. I kept them😊happy shooting
I have a gauge However I do not have any sort of tooling Fix that issue it becomes an issue other than just throwing the Brass Away which 6mm PPC and 257 Roberts It gets expensive.
Otherwise known as "Fire-Forming" Brass. An old school method was to put a powder charge in the brass and fill it up the rest of the way with Cornmeal. The load the cartridge and fire it up into the air. The Cornmeal was harmless, but created enough pressure to form the brass in the chamber. Used to do this for an 8mm-06 Ackley Improved Mauser Rifle I had. Which was a 30-06 Case, the had the lengthened shoulder and opened up to an 8mm bullet. It was a common thing for my Grandfather back in World War II times. He had plenty of brass in 30-06, but you could not get 30 caliber bullets.
@@gunsforevery1 Yes, in the USA all 30 caliber stuff was going to the war efforts, but 8mm was available and some had a surplus of them from other calibers. People were making wildcat cartridges with lots of metric or off 30 stuff like 7mm and 35 caliber and 6.5mm, etc. Of course there was easy to obtain stuff like 12 gauge and 22 LR.
It sure should have the cal stamped on the barrel. Usualy on the left side near the rear. Your fired 270 shells can now be shortened 1mm & reloaded to 30-06 just fine😊
How well does it shoot with the standard brass in it? It seems like youre having to buy cartridges to fire form them (which reduces their life) so that you can then reload it a few times before having to start over? What is the benefit? Edit: Here's what I've learned. The benefit is 4% extra velocity at most The downside is the extra cost and work and the people you have to communicate with for advice if you need it.
@Leroy-Jenkem please tell me what rounds you're reloading for 10 cents. Lmao if it fires just fine the first time then it sort of proves the chamber and fire forming are unnecessary right?
The benefit is more velocity. If u aneal the brass every 4 or 5 reloadings they will last a very very long time as long as the loads aren't max loads. I'm still using brass I've had since the 70s. I aneal with a propane torch & a cookie sheet of water, that's realy all that's needed even though there are fancy expensive machines to do it too. As for standard brass in the Ackley chamber. U get a little velocity loss in fireforming & a little shift in POI but not a lot
Ackley Improved cartridges take out the case taper as well, I believe, as well as optimizing the shoulder angle. 5-10% improvement in powder capacity is standard, I understand. I'm of the opinion that an Ackley Improved .338 Federal cartridge can hold up to 50 grains of gunpowder vs the M118LR's 40.5 grains of powder. Extrapolated velocity increase vs the Swedes saboted 6 gram (92.6 grain) .19 caliber tungsten AP round at 1,260 meters per second indicates that a 90 grain saboted ALCO Bullets' 0.224 caliber projectile could achieve 4,300 to 4,375 feet per second muzzle velocity. This 0.627 ballistic coefficient projectile could thereby achieve 2,368 to 2,398 yards before deceleration to Mach one occurs. This deceleration through the speed of sound causes instability across it's longitudinal axis, causing the projectile to yaw, opening up group sizes unacceptably in most cases. My .338 Federal Ackley Improved idea even at 4,300 fps from a 20 inch barrel results in the projectile generating 3,698 ft/lbs of energy, a match for the muzzle energy of the .300 Winchester Magnum Navy load at the muzzle, a 190 grain Sierra Matchking at 0.54 ballistic coefficient at 2, 960 fps from a 24 inch barrel. This load gets 1,500 yards of effective range at standard temperature and pressure. A regular .308 Winchester cartridge can achieve 4,000 fps from a 20 inch barrel throwing a saboted 90 grain ALCO Bullets' projectile. This gets 2,218 yards of effective range at standard temperature and pressure. And apparently I need to burn some more people, because I cannot seem to help some understand the balance of power here. I'll hold off for a minute. Perhaps jump through a hoop or two given the participant that I saw recently. He's about one of the most steadfast in his resolve that I've encountered in quite some time. #Ihaveahighschooleducation 💀♠️🎯
I'm a blacksmith and work with enough gunsmiths to know not to f around with spacing or pressure. If I were hoping to do this, which I wouldn't, I'd at least start with an empty casing, anneal the top past the shoulder by .5cm and then use a light load with a light bullet. I also don't reload, but knowing metals, I want to reduce hardness any time I'm forming something brittle that can crack.
I‘m a gunsmith and weapon engineer and i agree. casings generally get longer from shooting, thats why you neck them down when reloading. Obviously it can‘t be done infinitely, and in that case, where the casing is deforming by a lot, i‘m quite sure it will shorten the life span more and - as you say - require careful annealing, otherwise it‘s gonna crack quite quickly
@@66smithra whats your point in naming po ackley but not a single argument on why he was so good. just because the mauser 98 was invented over 100 years ago it doesn‘t make it a good rifle
Or you could have an ackley chamber that can fire the standard or ackley ammo, which is better performing and typically more consistent... I'm getting 4000fps with 70gr nosler ballistic tips in a 28" 243 ackley. Good luck getting that with a standard 243.
I found out about PO Ackley by complete accident last year, I'm distantly related to him but it's sadly very distant, our common ancestor is from like the 18th century (I have Ackley family members from upper MI, my grandmother was an Ackley). Even more ironic, he passed away the literal day I was born, August 23rd, 1989.
@@glennsosinske3260 yes the brass is getting thinner every time you work it. The whole case does some thinning even during firing. Work hardening and thinning.
Yes it shortens it, but it also increases case volume so you get more velocity. It doesn't shorten them much though, a 243 is 2.035-2.045 inches long and my 243 ackley is 2.025 if I remember correctly
I have both and have been firing the same for each now for about a year without reloading any. Believe it or not, today i decided to do so and was dumbfounded by what i saw.
I got the oddest rifle at a gunshow a few years ago for $100. It was a heavily modified brit. Enfield #4mk1 with a one piece stock. The tag said 35cal ? $100. Somebody installed a 350 rem mag bbl that had the chamber shortened to the front of the belt. Because the 350mag shell is so big there wasn't many brass options. 33win & 38-56win brass solved that problem. I shortened 350mag dies & all is well. Now to get the magazine to feed that big shell is next. It is truly a one of a kind round, the only one in the world & i have it😊
The ammunition casings, depending on the detonating charge or the material they are made, they tend to expand upon detonation, so if the chamber of the weapon is not prepared for this expansion, the case will get stuck inside the chamber. Brass and high power bushings tend to expand.
Fire formed and dangerous because they can be forced into a standard chamber with varying degrees of failure. And technically speaking you have weakened the intended chamber while increasing pressure in it
Agreed. Those AI cartridges only have marginally better performance anyway. The extractors, stuck cartridges and headaches aren't worth it compared to a complete caliber change.
@@AlphaSierra3754000 rounds through my stole teddy action 243 ackley, not one stuck casing or headache. Interesting, it's almost like you don't know what you're talking about
@@genoboughter3716 at least not with a 9mm. Try it. Put a bullet down the barrel from the front and see where it gets stuck - you won't reach the cartridge. I guess it's made that way to provide a seal and take full advantage of the gas pressure - the bullet has to deform a bit to leave. Explains squibs, too.
I was told that if you rebarrel a 1903 Springfield it is important to ream out the chamber to manage the pressures. Factory .303 always expands to fill the chamber and once expanded, if it is not resized there is a risk of it’s not fitting other rifles. I was present when someone experienced a gas escape from an unreamed M1903. I suppose there must be a spectrum of risk involved in not sizing cases when reloading or using the Ackley system but I reckon it has to be a risk worth examining.
If you are deliberately fire forming brass for precision, those rounds will probably never be fired from any other firearm. If once fired brass doesn't fit in another chamber that is for that round, one If the 2 chambers is very incorrect to begin with and probably shouldn't be fired at all.
@@alexanderblackburn4520 I am none the wiser for the reason to ream a new 1903 barrel or the supposedly causal penalty of a gas escape risk if you don't - but thank you nonetheless.
The only gain would be if you're already using a full case charge or a compressed charge, neither of which is often implemented. The little added benefit and associated risk makes it a non starter.
Impressive illustration with the cut-away.👍 For you noobs, this is called fire forming, which has nothing to do with a torch. When you FIRE the cartridge, the brass FORMS to the shape of the chamber. Annealing is done with a torch, to remove brittleness from the neck and shoulders of the case.
Usually, fire forming is not done with a real load. Fire forming is typically done with a reduced powder load and a wad of cotton where the bullet should be.
I have done this to my 303 Lee Enfield. This makes it so I can get more reloads out of the case, and it also decrease the locking lugs backwards force. The last is I can increase my bullet velocity by 350 fps.
Basically this was before extremely accurate pressure and velocity testing was available to wildcatters. The gentleman believed by doing this mod you could get way more speed out of a given cartridge. And maybe it was 50 fps, or 100. Maybe…. This was back in the velocity is king days. Before we settled that debate with accurate testing that showed the vast majority of cartridges are more accurate when not loaded to absolute maximum. Fudds would routinely seriously wound game because they “know what I got.” And instead of working up a load over a few months to perfection. And be as accurate as possible, they would be happy if the bullet hit a six inch circle at 50 yards. Now toss in a few beers, and a scope that they smacked against twenty trees walking into the woods and you had a mess. “My deer ran off! Another 100fps and it would have blown its lungs out its butt!” Meanwhile mister family feeder poacher is dropping deer with a 22 short to the melon. Like so many of our cartridges, this method of improving is nothing more than lily gilding. Of course my associate has an ackley improved, and I have redundant cartridges as well. But I never said I wasn’t a hypocrite. Though I still shoot for tight groups, speed be damned.
Some time ago I bought a 6mm XC but didn't wanna buy David Tubb's proprietary XC brass - so I bought WW headstamp 22-250 brass, necked it up to 6mm and fired it. If I had a cutaway picture as in this video - it'd be WAY more dramatic than this minor Ackley "improvement".
Fire forming works great. But there is a reason most long time dependable development of ammo sticks with the sharper angle on the shoulder. In the long term is better due to pressure failures possible on the flatter angle of the shoulder. Fire forming is great for the reloaded and bench shooting guy always trying to eke out 50-100 fps.
If you have athlete improved brass. Or I should say brass that you have turned into acley. Improved brass note one thing you cannot go back. The reason for it is because you have hardened the brass and you will have to. Temper it to Attempt to return to where the brass began so that you can start all over again with the stretching. This was done in steps to begin with, and it must be done in steps. Again, most people will fail to do the stretching appropriately. And some stretching is necessary as the brass must be hardened somewhat.
For anyone who doesn't understand: Ackley improved refers to an increased shoulder angle, allowing for more powder to fit inside. Since it isn't popular enough, ammo manufacturers don't make this ammo. So, chambers are made with the Ackley improvement, regular ammo is used, fired, then that fired shell has been reformed(this is called fireforming) into the Ackley improved cartridge, if the case didn't rupture that is. While some rounds may gain performance from the Ackley improvement, many other rounds will only gain a negligible amount. Ackley himself decided it wasn't worth it, but the name stuck.
Thanks for the explanation.
The most notable is probably the 22-250 AI. I probably make that chamber cut 10 times a year
Thankyou!
Thank you
It's not like brass get their whole volume filled with powder, and that can't be more than a 1% increase in total volume anyway.
Unless you're making pissing-hot loads, _just why?_
The early arms race was probably most exciting time to be an engineer
That is until the asteroid mining race kicks off in the 2100s
@@thomasjames7568imagine this comment becomes true
Brother you should see inside the military industrial complex today. Trust me, they're way more geeked now than they were then. These mf are making weapons that can kill the world...makes small arms look like child's play 😂
@@rememberitsallcensorshipny company does that too, you guys are a lot further ahead than us
@@yacinealg152 it already is in early stages
Ah, good old fire forming. You can make many different cartridge cases this way.
Usually it is to increase the caliber though, right? This seems like so much extra cost/work for very thin benefits
@@Randaldmight be small benefits, but there's no risk, assuming you didn't decide to throw an extra ten grains of powder in or something stupid.
@kevinfabian3002 who said risk? So its extra work and money for "might be" small benefits?
@@Randald I was simply saying there is zero risk to doing it. As to more money, wtf are you talking about? So you don't know the topic, yet you feel the need to lecture on it? You do realize you can Google Ackley Improved chambers and learn all you need to know, correct?
@@Randald it's to increase case capacity to hold more powder for more velosity. More velocity is a good thing😊
Load your ammo to minimum safe pressure to " fire form" it to without splitting.
I'm glad you said safe minimum.
I remember reading that too little powder can destroy your gun.
Before y'all shoot me down.
It has to do with flame fronts and other abnormalities like all the powder is sitting on the one side of the case.
A poor analogy would be pinging in your petrol engine. It's actually detonation of your fuel and not igniting it at the correct time. Pistons break and melt.
Or use a forming load with a pressure builder like rice or cream of wheat or something in front of the powder. You can use something cheap like a couple grains of 231 or Unique then.
I did it with rice when I was fire forming some .30/30 cases. My wife was really mad at me for firing blanks at the roof of her barn without telling her they were blanks. 😂
this guy knows
@@xagtly I really don't think people were gonna shoot you down dude, OP said "safest minimum" because he knew that underloading is dangerous, other people have this information too, it's not esoteric
It’s pretty effective on some cartridges. Very useful for controlling brass flow too. The 6.5x55, 22-250, and other highly tapered cartridges can achieve useful gains in performance, but it’s really good for limiting case length growth. As always, it doesn’t matter how fast it goes if you can’t hit anything.
And yes, it does require its own loading dies and will not fit in a standard chamber. It’s not for guys that want to buy ammo and go shooting. It’s also inherently safe and does not add to load on the bolt face. It is also probably an anachronism now as there are all manner of factory cartridges produced but Parker Ackley came up with this effective solution many years ago when there was much less variety. Removing much of the case taper and sharpening the shoulder gave extra capacity and performance with no gain in pressure.
I built quite a few .280 Ackleys for Thar and Chamois hunters in the Southern Alps and they worked well.
BTW you can shoot standard ammo in an Ackley chamber, but not the other way around. You won’t be able to get an Ackley round into a standard chamber far enough to close.
With my precision rifles, I'll fire the brass once to fire form it to the chamber, and then just neck size it when reloading. Prefect fit in the chamber for the next firing.
Same here. I neck size only; never have full-length resized even once.
There is only one way! Described above
True, but the brass should only be used for the gun it is sized for. Automatic or semiautomatic rifles should have the case full length sized so not to have loading problems, but yeah, for bench rest, it's the only way to go.
Guys like you should be ashamed that your toys aren't keeping America safe from the border invaders and corrupt government officials, like Michael Aquino.
What you will find is that if you fireform factory ammo and then full length resize each time you load it you will soon have a case head seperatation. Brass flows forward with each firing. The better way to do this is to take a once fired case from a standard chamber then neck size only but not the full neck. Leave a short distance of the neck that was not sized. This leaves a "bump" in the neck where it joins the shoulder. This bump will help hold the case back against the bolt face. There will be very little brass flow and a more accurate forming of the Ackley dimension "40 degree shoulder ".
After 2 or 3 neck sizings you will notice that closing the bolt on the round will require a bit more effort. Then a full length resizing would be prudent.
Steel case: I'm About to End This Man's Whole Career
Just use more powder. What could go wrong :D
More seriously, even steel will expand a little. That's what allows it to seal when you fire. It might return to the original shape or expand but not conform to the ackley chamber though.
Steel case is for people who don't reload
Good luck finding anything cased in steel that can be made into an AI
It will fire just fine.
@@arthurmoore9488 meteu um more seriously
U should put a shell after fireforming in there also😊
Casing... it's a casing...
@@Trapperboy190 "shell" and "casing" are synonyms but go ahead and be a pedant
Spent casing
@@Trapperboy190 with me it's been a shell since the 60s, it will remain so to the end. But it's actualy a cartridge case, not a casing😊
@@michaelpierson7256besides it would be nice to see a fired and a reloaded cartridge in there.
It’s called fire forming. Any good hand loader knows about this and has probably done it.
Yeah. For things that caught on. This "improvement" nets you just about nothing in performance and all you're doing is spending more on powder than if you just had a standard chamber.
Have to remember to mark the casings that come from my new rifle (not AI, just 30-06)... Have shot a few now so I have some fireformed and tons of non FF.
@@Deathbomb9 on my 22-250 the load I ended up on after rechambering was virtually the same amount of powder and nearly 10% higher muzzle velocity.
@@solzerid with the same weight of propellant and only a fractional increase in the volume that would only be possible if you actually changed the load...as in different powder and a lighter bullet or one or the other. Bullet diameter not changing and the case diameter being the same wouldn't give you any increase with the same exact load. Something in your load changed. A different chamber alone won't net you any gains if the only thing that changed was the angle of the shoulder. The physics simply aren't on your side with that claim. That tiny amount of space doesn't mean anything if you are using the the same exact load. It's dead space. You're not going to see an increase in chamber pressure, nor much in the way of velocity outside maybe a few extra fps, but that's so nominal that it happens in factory loads so it's basically nothing. There's a reason this didn't catch on and was basically abandoned.
How many times can a casing be reused? I come from a country where our freedom sadly doesn't include firearms.
This whole procedure once formed makes brass actually hold more powder, because most cartridges it is done with reduce body taper as well.
Yes you use Ackley Improved reloading dies.
Once converted you actually reduce case stretch actually extending case life.
Now to convert the shoulder to throat junction is moved back a couple thousandths of an inch to hold the cartridge as it is fire formed so it does not shrink in length.
This is for reloaders…
Also you can use factory ammo Of the parent cartridge or if you are converting to a wildcat AI cartridge your fire forming ammo for hunting easily.. works great
Thank you, an actually informed comment instead of the usual kneejerk armchair BS that dominates youtube.
Thanks for going to the effort and expense to make this video. For visual people, it makes it easy to understand how fireforming works.
It's called fire forming my buddy does this to get brass to reload for his 243 Ackley
I'm sure this would work great for many guns. But it's my understanding that for many automatic rifles That the taper is carefully chosen for proper extraction.
AI rounds are not usually fired from semi automatics.
That taper has nothing to do with extraction. The taper of the "Straight" part of the case is for that.
@@sammorgan31 this also.
My grandfather's Uncle my great-great-uncle taught me about Fireform brass and he would use cream of wheat mixed very thick put it in the case in lieu of a bullet then fire it. You didnt need to go to the range to fireform brass you can do it in the garage.
Gah damn how old was he? I barely even remember my great grandfather he died when I was 4ish in early 80s.
@@koDaffi he was born in 1905 died in 2010, almost a hundred and 5. I was 22 when he died. He taught me how to reload when I was 11 and he was in his 90's.
@@Mark_317Sounds like a great bonding experience. My uncle taught me and we've had a lot of fun going back and forth on it since.
I’m not allowed to talk about my Uncle Touchy. Unless it’s with my therapist.
I was a pallbearer at my great grandmother's funeral... I was 27.
She used to make her own pasta noodles... damn but that woman could cook
If it doesn't bust; Virgin brass usually doesn't though
Neather does fired brass if it's annealed first
I'm not sure of what you even call a tool to machine the thickness of the neck where you see the bullet so that the outside and the inside are concentric so wind Chambers if you inject the same shell you'll see all the lands all the way around the bullet because it was centered in the bore
@@willestus9120 for the love of god use some full stops
@@willestus9120 it's a concentricity tool. It's not needed unless u do compatition shooting. Since u don't know what it is I'm assuming u don't shoot compatitions so life is good. If a bullet isn't fully engaging the rifling something is very wrong. I pick up all bullets to recast into cannon projos for 40mm & 3" (76.2mm) so I have seen such things after seeing hundreds of thousands of shot bullets but not many at all. The last ones I recall seeing were 9x39mm steel 250gr bullets for subsonic use used in an AK9. I looked it up. I never heard of it untill finding the 9x39 shells & bullets, the rifling wasn't even & concentric at all on some of them. I kept them😊happy shooting
I have a gauge However I do not have any sort of tooling Fix that issue it becomes an issue other than just throwing the Brass Away which 6mm PPC and 257 Roberts It gets expensive.
"the brass will expand and"- me getting out my hammer😂
Us reloaders call it fire forming brass.
Otherwise known as "Fire-Forming" Brass. An old school method was to put a powder charge in the brass and fill it up the rest of the way with Cornmeal. The load the cartridge and fire it up into the air. The Cornmeal was harmless, but created enough pressure to form the brass in the chamber. Used to do this for an 8mm-06 Ackley Improved Mauser Rifle I had. Which was a 30-06 Case, the had the lengthened shoulder and opened up to an 8mm bullet. It was a common thing for my Grandfather back in World War II times. He had plenty of brass in 30-06, but you could not get 30 caliber bullets.
But he could get 8mm bullets? Lol
@@gunsforevery1 Yes, in the USA all 30 caliber stuff was going to the war efforts, but 8mm was available and some had a surplus of them from other calibers. People were making wildcat cartridges with lots of metric or off 30 stuff like 7mm and 35 caliber and 6.5mm, etc. Of course there was easy to obtain stuff like 12 gauge and 22 LR.
It's called "Fire Forming" your brass.
Dang, I guess this kind of redefines explosive molding. 😅
I was sold a 30-06 and was told it was a 270 and i didnt catch on to why this was happening to the neck of the shell
It sure should have the cal stamped on the barrel. Usualy on the left side near the rear. Your fired 270 shells can now be shortened 1mm & reloaded to 30-06 just fine😊
I'm a bit slow so forgive me...I don't understand whats going on here. Can someone explain a vut more
And you didn’t bring the gun back when it couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn?
@jordanlarkin4533 I bought the gun used and we thought the scope might have been damaged so went to get it bore sighted when I realized
@@Psychedelic_Cowboy what dont u understand. This guy using 270 ammo in a 30-06 or how the ackley chamber works?
How well does it shoot with the standard brass in it? It seems like youre having to buy cartridges to fire form them (which reduces their life) so that you can then reload it a few times before having to start over? What is the benefit?
Edit: Here's what I've learned. The benefit is 4% extra velocity at most
The downside is the extra cost and work and the people you have to communicate with for advice if you need it.
reload a 1 dollar bullet for $0.10 5 times and you get 5 bullets for the price of 1.5
your bullet will shoot fine the first time the brass is formed
@Leroy-Jenkem please tell me what rounds you're reloading for 10 cents. Lmao if it fires just fine the first time then it sort of proves the chamber and fire forming are unnecessary right?
@Leroy-Jenkem you're going to get less reloads after forming too. What is the benefit?
It seems like a waste of money and time.
The benefit is more velocity. If u aneal the brass every 4 or 5 reloadings they will last a very very long time as long as the loads aren't max loads. I'm still using brass I've had since the 70s. I aneal with a propane torch & a cookie sheet of water, that's realy all that's needed even though there are fancy expensive machines to do it too. As for standard brass in the Ackley chamber. U get a little velocity loss in fireforming & a little shift in POI but not a lot
Ackley Improved cartridges take out the case taper as well, I believe, as well as optimizing the shoulder angle.
5-10% improvement in powder capacity is standard, I understand.
I'm of the opinion that an Ackley Improved .338 Federal cartridge can hold up to 50 grains of gunpowder vs the M118LR's 40.5 grains of powder.
Extrapolated velocity increase vs the Swedes saboted 6 gram (92.6 grain) .19 caliber tungsten AP round at 1,260 meters per second indicates that a 90 grain saboted ALCO Bullets' 0.224 caliber projectile could achieve 4,300 to 4,375 feet per second muzzle velocity.
This 0.627 ballistic coefficient projectile could thereby achieve 2,368 to 2,398 yards before deceleration to Mach one occurs.
This deceleration through the speed of sound causes instability across it's longitudinal axis, causing the projectile to yaw, opening up group sizes unacceptably in most cases.
My .338 Federal Ackley Improved idea even at 4,300 fps from a 20 inch barrel results in the projectile generating 3,698 ft/lbs of energy, a match for the muzzle energy of the .300 Winchester Magnum Navy load at the muzzle, a 190 grain Sierra Matchking at 0.54 ballistic coefficient at 2, 960 fps from a 24 inch barrel.
This load gets 1,500 yards of effective range at standard temperature and pressure.
A regular .308 Winchester cartridge can achieve 4,000 fps from a 20 inch barrel throwing a saboted 90 grain ALCO Bullets' projectile.
This gets 2,218 yards of effective range at standard temperature and pressure.
And apparently I need to burn some more people, because I cannot seem to help some understand the balance of power here.
I'll hold off for a minute.
Perhaps jump through a hoop or two given the participant that I saw recently.
He's about one of the most steadfast in his resolve that I've encountered in quite some time.
#Ihaveahighschooleducation
💀♠️🎯
Umm,……..Yes,……that’s correct.
Good ol P.O. Ackley, one of the best wildcatters there ever was.
I'm a blacksmith and work with enough gunsmiths to know not to f around with spacing or pressure. If I were hoping to do this, which I wouldn't, I'd at least start with an empty casing, anneal the top past the shoulder by .5cm and then use a light load with a light bullet. I also don't reload, but knowing metals, I want to reduce hardness any time I'm forming something brittle that can crack.
You’ve never heard of PO Ackley? He’s one of the best gunsmiths in history and invented this 100 years ago.
@@66smithra if you have no knowledge about that topic, why don‘t you remain silent?
I‘m a gunsmith and weapon engineer and i agree. casings generally get longer from shooting, thats why you neck them down when reloading. Obviously it can‘t be done infinitely, and in that case, where the casing is deforming by a lot, i‘m quite sure it will shorten the life span more and - as you say - require careful annealing, otherwise it‘s gonna crack quite quickly
@@lorenzoxcucco if I had no knowledge I would.
@@66smithra whats your point in naming po ackley but not a single argument on why he was so good.
just because the mauser 98 was invented over 100 years ago it doesn‘t make it a good rifle
Or I could just use standard ammo in a standard chamber and not have to deal with the nonsense.
Many Ackley chambers are now SAAMI spec.
If it doesn't interest you, scroll on
Or you could have an ackley chamber that can fire the standard or ackley ammo, which is better performing and typically more consistent...
I'm getting 4000fps with 70gr nosler ballistic tips in a 28" 243 ackley. Good luck getting that with a standard 243.
That would be too easy
And you could also reload it.
I found out about PO Ackley by complete accident last year, I'm distantly related to him but it's sadly very distant, our common ancestor is from like the 18th century (I have Ackley family members from upper MI, my grandmother was an Ackley). Even more ironic, he passed away the literal day I was born, August 23rd, 1989.
Yep, I’m related to him as well. My grandma on that side came from Michigan/Ohio area during the Depression. Ended up in CA like a lot of folks.
There’s no shortage of factory formed AI brass where I live
Cortina punching the air right now lmao
Wouldn’t this shorten the overall length of the brass a bit?
Maybe like .02 but that’s a pretty common shoulder bump for a lot of shooters
Brass gets longer as you shoot it. Whole case gets squeezed resulting in it lengthening. It's why we need case trimmers
Wherever the brass fills the gap, would the brass be thinner in that section from expansion?
@@glennsosinske3260 yes the brass is getting thinner every time you work it. The whole case does some thinning even during firing. Work hardening and thinning.
Yes it shortens it, but it also increases case volume so you get more velocity.
It doesn't shorten them much though, a 243 is 2.035-2.045 inches long and my 243 ackley is 2.025 if I remember correctly
I have both and have been firing the same for each now for about a year without reloading any. Believe it or not, today i decided to do so and was dumbfounded by what i saw.
I like the different gaps top and bottom
It’s sounds like you’re trying to say fire formed but just making it difficult
its named after the guy who came up with the principle. idea was that with the steeper neck angle you could fit more powder. but yes its fire forming
He's explaining the concept for people who don't know what fire-forming is.
I got the oddest rifle at a gunshow a few years ago for $100. It was a heavily modified brit. Enfield #4mk1 with a one piece stock. The tag said 35cal ? $100. Somebody installed a 350 rem mag bbl that had the chamber shortened to the front of the belt. Because the 350mag shell is so big there wasn't many brass options. 33win & 38-56win brass solved that problem. I shortened 350mag dies & all is well. Now to get the magazine to feed that big shell is next. It is truly a one of a kind round, the only one in the world & i have it😊
The ammunition casings, depending on the detonating charge or the material they are made, they tend to expand upon detonation, so if the chamber of the weapon is not prepared for this expansion, the case will get stuck inside the chamber.
Brass and high power bushings tend to expand.
You don’t love a girl because she is beautiful, but she is beautiful because you love her!
I read that in an Indian accent
If your case doesn't split and be ruined.
If cases are splitting while you're fire forming an ackley improved cartridge the brass you're using wasn't worth firing in the first place
It also greatly improves faster ejection.
getting me ready for the apocalypse
Fire formed and dangerous because they can be forced into a standard chamber with varying degrees of failure. And technically speaking you have weakened the intended chamber while increasing pressure in it
"improved" back in the day they just called that shit machining. kids your brass should fit the chamber and those shouldnt be there.
Agreed. Those AI cartridges only have marginally better performance anyway. The extractors, stuck cartridges and headaches aren't worth it compared to a complete caliber change.
Neither of you have any idea on what you're talking about 😂
@@AlphaSierra375 that all sounds like cheap rifle issues. AI cartridges all work just as well as any others.
Bro doesn't know what ackley imoroved chambers or wildcat cartridges are. Stay home buddy you don't know what you're talking about 😂😂
@@AlphaSierra3754000 rounds through my stole teddy action 243 ackley, not one stuck casing or headache. Interesting, it's almost like you don't know what you're talking about
Wow. Such a simple solution of such a complicated problem
I have a 25-06 ackley and it's a beast!
I would like to compliment you on your diligence.
I was 20 years old when I realized that a bullet could not fit through the end of a barrel.
the bullet can the cartridge cannot
@@genoboughter3716 at least not with a 9mm. Try it. Put a bullet down the barrel from the front and see where it gets stuck - you won't reach the cartridge. I guess it's made that way to provide a seal and take full advantage of the gas pressure - the bullet has to deform a bit to leave. Explains squibs, too.
@@anonydun82fgoog35 I don't consider .0005-.003 inch interference on soft metal "not fitting", but I may be jaded in a that regard.
I was told that if you rebarrel a 1903 Springfield it is important to ream out the chamber to manage the pressures. Factory .303 always expands to fill the chamber and once expanded, if it is not resized there is a risk of it’s not fitting other rifles. I was present when someone experienced a gas escape from an unreamed M1903. I suppose there must be a spectrum of risk involved in not sizing cases when reloading or using the Ackley system but I reckon it has to be a risk worth examining.
If you are deliberately fire forming brass for precision, those rounds will probably never be fired from any other firearm. If once fired brass doesn't fit in another chamber that is for that round, one If the 2 chambers is very incorrect to begin with and probably shouldn't be fired at all.
@@alexanderblackburn4520 I am none the wiser for the reason to ream a new 1903 barrel or the supposedly causal penalty of a gas escape risk if you don't - but thank you nonetheless.
The only gain would be if you're already using a full case charge or a compressed charge, neither of which is often implemented. The little added benefit and associated risk makes it a non starter.
Impressive illustration with the cut-away.👍 For you noobs, this is called fire forming, which has nothing to do with a torch. When you FIRE the cartridge, the brass FORMS to the shape of the chamber. Annealing is done with a torch, to remove brittleness from the neck and shoulders of the case.
The algorithm has spoken. You guys better hold on.
thanks!
i knew it expanded to fit but this was a great showing :D
That's called fire forming your bress
That’s a funny lookin pencil
I love my 257 Ackley!
Just remember that any brass you do this to will jam your other rifles it used to fit in...
Family guy brain rot caused my brain to light up when I heard the word cutaway
Headspace has to be just right. I like this concept
And now you got yourself some Ackley improved feed issues
The Last War trilogy by Mike Shackle would be my suggestion.
I'm more worried about that huge space Infront of the projectile😂
Usually, fire forming is not done with a real load. Fire forming is typically done with a reduced powder load and a wad of cotton where the bullet should be.
I think I’ll just stick with my custom barrels, fire, forming the brass, and having a dye made for the brass
Cool DeMo Can you do show 9mm cutaway next
This is truly stunning!
I have done this to my 303 Lee Enfield. This makes it so I can get more reloads out of the case, and it also decrease the locking lugs backwards force. The last is I can increase my bullet velocity by 350 fps.
What thats so creative!!!!
Ackley improved brass reloads might be an improvement
THATS JUST ACKLEY 😊
Next: a shark shaped cartridge
Special ed. : Dart Vader's helmet shaped cartridge!
If I'll do it I'm sure someone will buy.
Or, if you make the projectile look rather phallic.. you could give whatever target a true shafting..😮
.243 AI is king of power efficiency in 6 mm
It's real😂 I feel so bad for laughing, but eh he's making bank
That’s one hell of long throat.
The Weatherby velocity truck
It’s called fire formed brass
This is superbly done!
I wonder what could’ve possibly inspired a design in which brass expands to fit in a chamber during the process of firing a cartridge. 😏
Projectiles going very fast WOW amazing
This used to be called, ‘Wildcatting’ 😊
Otherwise known as fireforming
Usually a half charge will work , they need to explain why they do this . We use to do this so we could have dies made for wild cats also
Basically this was before extremely accurate pressure and velocity testing was available to wildcatters.
The gentleman believed by doing this mod you could get way more speed out of a given cartridge. And maybe it was 50 fps, or 100. Maybe….
This was back in the velocity is king days. Before we settled that debate with accurate testing that showed the vast majority of cartridges are more accurate when not loaded to absolute maximum.
Fudds would routinely seriously wound game because they “know what I got.” And instead of working up a load over a few months to perfection. And be as accurate as possible, they would be happy if the bullet hit a six inch circle at 50 yards.
Now toss in a few beers, and a scope that they smacked against twenty trees walking into the woods and you had a mess.
“My deer ran off! Another 100fps and it would have blown its lungs out its butt!”
Meanwhile mister family feeder poacher is dropping deer with a 22 short to the melon.
Like so many of our cartridges, this method of improving is nothing more than lily gilding.
Of course my associate has an ackley improved, and I have redundant cartridges as well.
But I never said I wasn’t a hypocrite.
Though I still shoot for tight groups, speed be damned.
If no company manufacturers the ammo for it then it’s simply not worth it
Fire-forming.
Fire forming
It would have been great if you could have included one of those spent cartridges into the video
I thought this has to be some sort of elaborate joke about incorrect headspace but nope 🤯
it holds 4% - 5% more powder and increases casing life
Some time ago I bought a 6mm XC but didn't wanna buy David Tubb's proprietary XC brass - so I bought WW headstamp 22-250 brass, necked it up to 6mm and fired it. If I had a cutaway picture as in this video - it'd be WAY more dramatic than this minor Ackley "improvement".
Which basically means when you put the round in it’s gonna be a little loose and then once you fire it, it will be a perfect fit
Cool!
Interesting. A wildcat that expects you to fireform for it.
Similar to what Ed Hollis did with the .264 Hollis
Those shoulders look like they are different sizes
Just found a bunch of 270 Winchester brass its now 30-06 now
Fire forming works great. But there is a reason most long time dependable development of ammo sticks with the sharper angle on the shoulder. In the long term is better due to pressure failures possible on the flatter angle of the shoulder. Fire forming is great for the reloaded and bench shooting guy always trying to eke out 50-100 fps.
If you have athlete improved brass. Or I should say brass that you have turned into acley. Improved brass note one thing you cannot go back. The reason for it is because you have hardened the brass and you will have to.
Temper it to Attempt to return to where the brass began so that you can start all over again with the stretching. This was done in steps to begin with, and it must be done in steps. Again, most people will fail to do the stretching appropriately.
And some stretching is necessary as the brass must be hardened somewhat.
Fire forming.
And now you have 💥
Weatherby has the same rounded shoulder 😮
similar but not the same
That would be called "fire formed"
"What happens after you pull the trigger?"
ah, tricking teammates into tk with goyo, a strat old as time