Fatal Jet Crash Grand Junction [ATC Audio]
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- On 2/7/24 a Hawker Jet departed Grand Junction, CO after having received maintenance. After this maintenance a stall test was required to be performed before the pilots continue on their flight to Seattle. During the stall the aircraft descended at a rate of 13,000 feet per minute and after 1 minute it impacted the high terrain right next to the Colorado/Utah border in Grand County Utah. Both occupants, the Pilot and Co-Pilot received fatal injuries.
The stall, the recent maintenance are all based off info I've received from local pilots and an article about a different incident involving a Hawker Jet losing 10,000' of altitude during a stall test where they thankfully recovered before hitting the ground. This is most likely what happened in this instance but none of this is confirmed by any reputable agencies.
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This is the link to another Hawker that lost 10,000' in altitude after doing a similar stall test. www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2006-09-13/post-maintenance-stall-tests-raise-safety-concerns
interesting report.... = thank you
Falling at 13,000 feet per minute is equivalent to falling 216.6 feet per second! That jet came down like a meteor! So sad for the pilot and co-pilot. I don't understand why they didn't let ATC know they were falling by keying up their mic?
When we did leading edge work on Lear 35s Lear required a factory test pilot to perform stall flights. The aircraft had to be loaded to it's most forward CG for recovery.Nobody was allowed to ride with him. Scary shit right there
Yeah I was on the 60 and needed a leading edge replacement. Was a huge deal bringing a test pilot out!
What is it about leading edge work that makes it so dangerous? Why does it require a stall test?
Because LE allowed a plane to fly slow. When replaced, I guess it needs to be tested that it works as designed... Or the regular pilot will find out during first landing. I assume the part is certified.. So I guess it's a test to make sure the installation was done correctly.
@@Bren39Yeah but you’d think those test could be done on the ground using precise measurements and what not.
@@yamkaw346it cannot. No amount of simulations or calculations will accurately tell you how an airfoil will perform in real life situations. There are too many variables in real life. It must be tested.
So the stall requirement is to test a part was installed correctly. If installed correctly, you survive else you die. That doesn't seem like a good deal to me.
That’s why you’re a plumber and not a pilot.
@@doriangray2020and alive
the logic is....what do they think? just pull over and adjust it..??
Blancolirio was going over the stall procedures in the POH for this aircraft, and my takeaway from it was - don't stall the aircraft.
Yeah but it’s required for this test flight
And I believe they started below the minimum altitude requirements right out of the manufacturers operational manual.
@@57Jimmy they were actually 2000 higher than maximum test altitude. FL180 is max altitude for the stall test, according to the POH. It also stated no clouds or potential icing during test. Both were present at the time. Just a few things people noticed on Juan's video.
RIP pilots. Seems like a lot of pilots have perished performing intentional stalls in the past year. Growing up my Dad would always remind me before a flight, "Never turn your aircraft into a box of rocks". 40 years later, practicing stalls still scates me something awful. I don't think i could be a maintenance test pilot.
After maintenance work on a Premier Jet a stall test was required prior to return to service. Our company refused to provide regular line pilots for the ride and used a factory test pilot for the stall checks. Good move on behalf of the company.
Is that because their lives are less valuable? SMH?
"When we're on top." Hawker stall tests are supposed to be done in VFR with no icing conditions.
There are "unusual" wind and weather conditions in this part of the world especially during the winter and spring months. The mountains can be unforgiving and unpredictable. Sad.
@@geoffmorgan6059 very sad events 😓
they recover the initial stall early at 13,700 but something happens 20 seconds later, I suspect something came apart on the wing during the stall recovery and that was that. from there they spin and go in.
That makes sense, sir.
“Go make sure we installed this part correctly, if we didn’t you’ll die” test pilots kinda have a shit job.
Or they went into a secondary stall during recovery while not wings level and spun it.
I thin k they just went into a secondary stall. Maybe a bit disoriented after the first stall recovery.
rumour is the TKS de-icing was repaired requiring a NEAR STALL test to ensure the panel is reinstalled correctly, I guess it wasnt.
I used to work with 125s. I cannot understand the need to check that any TKS strip was installed correctly. You have either attach it with screws (IIRC) or you haven't. If the check was for function (is the fluid flowing?) then there is no need to do it near a stall.
We did once have an issue with one aircraft which had a stall incident. That was easily traced to dents on the leading edges, caused by ground maintenance. Easily spotted but no one had appreciated the effect.
@@possel4747 i read a main manual and thats where it brings up the near stall test after installation or removal
Aircraft with a high horizontal stabilizer (T-tail) have trouble coming out of a stall. The Main wing stall/turbulance hinders the control surfaces on the high set horizontal stabilizer. I never liked the idea of voluntarily stalling an aircraft with a T-tail configuration unless the altitude was great. (FL380).
And you have a parachute…and ejection seat!
This doesn't give me a warm feeling about the air worthiness of this AC -- if experienced pilots that planned this operation and were prepared for the eventuality are taking significant risks what does that say about your average pilot coming upon this at lower altitude and without forewarning. The one thing that needs to be determined is the weather at the time and place of the incident. My understanding is you need clear skies to avoid losing situational awareness in clouds that can make the recovery more difficult or even impossible.
"Once we get on top here."
That's all I needed to hear. Those that know, know.
What does that mean?
Top of the clouds?
Yeah
With what he was doing, he was supposed to have a good visualization of the horizon. He talks about getting above the clouds. Getting above a cloud layer doesn't do it. That means he may not have had a view of the ground/horizon. Now, it's possible the clouds weren't all that widespread, but this provides a possibility as to why he crashed.
Per the hawker 900 ops manual this should only be performed in day vfr free of the clouds. You all heard it. "As soon as we're on top". Test pilot territory.
Top being the altitude.
@@wyoboatman disagree. They paused their climb at 20000. Look at the clouds in the aftermath pic.
@@wyoboatman FL 260 was their initial climb. They stopped at 200. Also "light precip in the vicinity of grand junction". This should not have been performed under less than perfect conditions.
The pictures are from unknown hours later. The report will come out and tell the full story. @@paynej32013
There will be consequences for men’s poor decisions.
Stall test failed......
The flight deck recording would help here. R.I.P.
It’s in the possession of NTSB for research. It will probably be released, or at least the transcript will be, once the investigation is concluded
Bob this has Munray if you stall a hawker jet there is a dual feed system to pressurize the fuel tanks and it goes to the first primary fuel pump it's like an In-N-Out so what really is going on at the earpiece into the pump system to blow debris out of the first primary pump but it also makes air bubbles so when I want to bring up to you I think they killed himself just by doing the star on the Hawker does pumps run a different way do you lose the primary pump to the from the wings and it takes like a minute to get the fuel to from the wings to the Main Motors which are in the rear of the jet and it might have caused a fuel failure so I want to bring that to your attention little bit because most of the Stalls are mainly for turboprop or prop planes so I think the stall was not appropriate so it took time for the field to go back in the system they had no fuel and it probably went to a poor death out and crossed in the Earth if you look up in the distance you see brown smoke so that's what happens to the Jets
What? Periods please. I fly a Hawker and have no idea what you're talking about.
never heard of a mandatory stall test.
I guess you've never heard of a private pilot checkride then either. Demonstration of stalls and correct recovery are a mandatory part of many checkrides.
@calcutronsmith9198 yes, but stalls in a swept wing aircraft are test pilot territory. We only practice stall recoveries from first indication of a stall and even that is in a sim. Too easy to get into a spin in a swept wing jet.
Edited for spelling.
You need to read more bruh…this is standard stuff.
@@calcutronsmith9198 never heard of a mandatory stall test. TEST, on the PLANE, dope
@@doriangray2020”bruh” sounds condescending but very hip.
Seems to be all gobbledygook lingo discussion this - why would it need maint/repairs? After said repairs, how would its airworthiness be assessed and confirmed to be at spec? If a minimum level of air above the clouds is required, then why would any test not adhering to those criteria be allowed to suffice? Meaning if it isn’t tested as required, doing anything less is just a waste of time -no?
Lot of weather at time of accident
A factor?
Who knows
If there were clouds then they should NOT have performed the test -- it's in the manual provided by the plane maker.
*OPENING TITLES* : "ITS departure".
Thank you. I'll never understand why this is so hard.
How come there was no mayday call?
Because when * gets that bad, communication is your last priority. What is ATC going to offer you - thoughts and prayers?
A distress call is usually a worthless act in most aviation accidents. Completely worthless in this one.
60 seconds and no mayday comms.
Aviate navigate communicate. Arresting the stall and flying the plane was probably their bigger concern. ATC cannot recover you from a stall/ spin.
I seriously doubt that they had to do a full stall to check something for mx.....taking a swept wing to a stall is a bad idea.....maybe to the stick shaker but never to a full stall....need more info
The leading edges are removed for heavy maint. When replaced conducting stall tests is a requirement.
"mandatory test stall" sounds like a recipe for tragedy. Is this a common thing?
For Hawkers yes, after repairs involving removal of wing's leading edge stall tests are mandatory.
I'm linking the video of a Boeing 717 stall test where the jet rolls inverted and you can hear the stick shaker rumbling at the edge of a secondary stall on the pull out.
ua-cam.com/video/L2CsO-Vu7oc/v-deo.html
The fact that the dude develops into a full blown barrel roll and his only reaction is “whoops” is insane
So was the repair successful?
She’s still on the Fritz
HA...lot of flightsim pilots commenting.....
Let’s see if it will stop flying at the designated speed.
Yup, it quit flying.
Guess it passed the test
No mayday call or nothing
Guess the test was failed.
So the point of the test is to see if you crash because the fix was done incorrectly. Kind of like using live humans to do auto crash tests: “The driver survived, you are front impact certified!”
Didn't know what they were doing, obviously.
You don't know that, obviously.
From what I've been hearing of the danger of stalling a swept wing aircraft...I don't believe I would ever ride in one.......And there is the story that They must be slightly nose heavy to recover.........Just give Me an ordinary hershey bar wing..............Paul
You mean you don't fly on airliners?
It sounds like you really have to be well trained to be flying these types of planes. It's like you have to be like the military pilots are
....riiiiight.
N900VA
I spent a significant portion of my early career training others in multi engine turbo prop aircraft, with no simulator available. Looking back all I can say “ There go I but for the grace of God”
As I hold no religious beliefs the “ grace of God” bit should be “ dumb luck”.
Yep..got it into a spin… That is unrecoverable