All of these topping DACs will sound EXACTLY the same in blind testing. The differences in these DACs are barely measurable and not audible. Even with different power supplies. In a double BLIND test, they are all 'the best'. Even professional audio engineers with decades of experience and trained ears can not RELIABLY and CONSISTENTLY tell the difference. Then if some can say 'this one is different' it is usually because the DAC filters are a little different and this will effect the treble volume perception very slightly (1-2 db). Spend your money on headphones (or speakers) and amplifiers not DACs, unless you need certain features in the DAC. I have this D10s coming out of my PC it then runs to my ADI-2 DAC via optical. The ADI-2 DAC sounds exactly they same if I have it on the optical input from the D10s or straight in from the PC via USB. Which is very easy to A-B (not blind, but very quick) just switch inputs via the remote. You can tell the difference? Double blind test or it did not happen. Signed- Not an audiophile.
Exactly. the only difference will be the features. People think they can hear a diference due to expectation bias when they're paying hgiher prices for more expsnive models
@@PassionforSound For the D10S I would still need something like iFi iDefender+ to separate the power from the audio signal from the computer and a USB bank / Battery to power it up (batteries provide clean power at a lesser cost than a linear PSU; you only need to charge them from time to time…). I’m used to such devices because the USB DACs need them, and I started with dongle / USB DACs about 10 years ago, back then you needed to insert a USB hub between the DAC and the phone to insert DC power when using an iPhone and Android didn’t support USB audio yet. I still enjoy them every day and you could say that I do DAC rolling. Nowadays the only modern dongle DAC that has the noise filtering built-in is Dragonfly Cobalt, with the Cobalt you don’t need a Jitterbug and it could actually be detrimental to use one. So these devices like Audioquest Jitterbug and iFi iDefender+ are still relevant. Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my comments! I really appreciate it.
3:53 Performance as a USB bridge That's a strong statement. Can you elaborate more on that, maybe on another video? Thanks! PS.: Using a FiiO K3 here -- similar price -- and I don't hear any sound degradation when doing digital outs to another DACs.
Hi Fabio, I've sent the D10S to a new home so I can't elaborate, but it was definitely a downgrade when I connected it in the chain compared to a direct USB connection. I can't recall which devices I tested this with, but it may depend on the products used because John Darko found improvements when using the D10S with a Raspberry Pi which has a notoriously poor USB output.
I find this to be highly unlikely...the chip handling the conversion is completely normal and doesn't have any reason to degrade anything. USB jitter is also something that should be eliminated fairly well once you convert to coax or toslink, so that could possibly make things even better. It's after all why you loop DAC's in certain scenarios. Moreover, people who actually measured the output in their reviesw (folks on audio forums for example) rated the spidif converter as completely adequate.
I note John Darko compared this to the Modi and found differences in sound signature but broadly comparable quality. Can't remember offhand if the Modi has a separate power input. If it does that may give it the advantage though the Topping has broader signal compatibility. Darko also suggested using the bridge functionality for using it with active speakers which may lack USB input. Disappointing but not at all surprising that it degrades SQ.
Thanks for letting us know, Jim. The Modi can use power through a separate micro USB socket so you can isolate the power. If it uses the same implementation as the Modius that I'm reviewing now, the external power makes no difference, but that's because Schiit are managing the incoming power much better (on the Modius at least). Between this and the Modi, I'd go for the Modi, but that's based on my Modius experience which may not be 100% indicative.
Thanks for this review! I have 2 questions. Why would the sound degrade if used as a bridge? Digital to Digital should not be degraded unless a conversion D to A and then A to D is performed. Also, if I input (by USB) a 192 kHz digital signal, will the Spdif output be also 192 or lower? Regards,
I believe the output should always match the input on a device like this. Not sure what happens with sample rates above the normal compatible rates of SPDIF, etc. As for degrading the sound, all digital devices rely on clean power and accurate clocks to produce a great output signal (whether digital or analog). There may also be more factors like processor quality too, but I'm not sure. I'm actually working on a DDC/USB Bridge video this week and discovering some interesting thinks about these devices so I'll go into depth in the video, but the short answer is that power supply really matters (remember that the D10S is powered by USB which is notoriously dirty) and the quality of the connection from the DDC to the DAC plus which connection types you use can both influence the overall performance. For example, I'd you have a DAC with good, isolated USB implementation like a Bifrost 2, the DDC connected via SPDIF might sound worse. If you have a DAC without an isolated USB circuit, the DDC might sound better. There are lots of variables.
Power supply can be upgraded with Ifi 5v supply plugged into idefender at usb outlet. OP amp inside unit is also easy to swap with a Burson audio or any other of your choosing. Awesome DAC with these upgrades.
That seems like a lot of investment when you could just start with a better DAC. I'm not trying to be an arse, I just don't see the point in buying a super budget DAC and then spending a bunch on peripheral parts. Am missing something?
I agree. You could just get the E30 or schiit modi and be done with it, but if you like to tinker and maybe have a extra ipower and/or op amps, this little guy is a fun one to play around with.
I don't think the Schiit Modi is all that good as it limits the rate and depth. If you have the tunes, you lose out I think. We also have to wait another year now for a Modi Multibit as Schiit has pushed the date back again.
Yes, I just chatted to Jason about that yesterday (full interview coming soon). I would suggest something like the Topping E30 or the SMSL DO100 as a readily available option that's great
@@PassionforSound I just watched your Topping D50s and the P50 videos and I was really leaning toward that as well as possibly the D10s (with upgrades).... You're just making my choices harder mate! But you finally got my sub... And you keep my attention. I am currently using the Hel 2e and I am adding items to my stack. I listen to speakers most often and I am about to remove the Hel to avoid using 2 Preamps in he chain. Running LS50 Meta's and SVS SB-1000 with a decently powered super clean amp in my small room setup. I Just bought the Loki mini+ and the Magni Heresy. As stated, I don't think the Modi is any good... I'm going to sell one of my Hel2 units to put towards a new straight up DAC. The D50s seems decent.
If I watch 5.1 movie on laptop, use this TOPPING sound card with optical SPDIF to the Denon amplifier, what will happen with the channels? Will Denon get all 5.1 channel?
No, DACs like this are simple 2-channel devices and will downmix to stereo only. You need to connect directly to a surround sound receiver for full 5.1.
I'm aware it doesn't have a hardware volume control but can you not use the windows volume slider like other usb audio devices? Great review and also some very informative responses to commenter's questions.
You can definitely use the operating system volume, but it will degrade sound quality because of how it works. Not a big deal, but worth being aware of.
@@PassionforSound Cheers fella. You wouldn't believe how hard it was to find that out by googling. I'm assuming you're referring to bit stripping-it's just so damn convenient doing it that way. I won't bore you with the details of my setup. Just subscribed btw.
Thanks for subscribing! Yes, it might be bit-stripping, but also the OS sound management often degrades the sound in general too even before you adjust the volume
Hi, nice review! I have a question. I'm currently using a pair of Qacoustics 3020i passive speakers with Yamaha WXA-50 streaming amplifier being fed from a Mac Mini M1 via 3.5mm to rca cable (I bought these 6months ago and in Indian market these were the only budget options available then). I've recently started to hear static noise on the speakers late at night (not sure if the noise was always there) and found out that it's because of the amp(tried other speakers as well, same result). Interestingly this noise is present when Aux-input is selected on amp, and on bluetooth input the noise is almost reduced to nothing, and on optical the noise is nonexistent. I asked around various forums but nobody could help me so far. I can't afford another expensive amp now. I've decided to get a D10S to use the usb to optical conversion & send it's Toslink output to the yamaha amp. Would you say this is a good decision in my current scenario? Also what should I expect in terms of SQ, better, worse, same? Will I be able to control the volume using my computer keyboard? Thank you.
Hi Sovon, I think you should expect some improvements in sound, but hard to say how much. I'm not sure what would be causing the issue, but hopefully this setup gets rid of it even if you can't find the cause.
I bought the d10 s to use as a bridge to another dac. And i agree with you, it makes the sound worse. Something happened when its used as spdif out. I used the coax line out. But it doesnt matter how good the measurements are...the sound is not good enough. I compared it to my bluetooth setup, ifi audio zen using ldac codec, and coax out. And it sounded far better than the usb implementation i used. It has been very hyped, this topping dac, but its not worth the money.
Thank you for the reivew. Would you please have a look at Douk Audio U2 Pro? May I please have a look at your measurements from which you draw conclusions about overall audio quality and ecspecially the proof of the fact that the audio signal was degraded when device was acting as a USB bridge? Where is the data that conclusion was based on? Was it based on any objective measurements? Or just a personal perception of a "background being not as dark" not even checked by double blind listening tests?.. Much appreciated.
I don't have a contact for the Douk Audio products so I'm not sure I can try that one. As for measurements, I'm not setup for testing as it costs $10,000s to buy the proper test equipment (I'll gladly accept donations to help raise those funds). I have to rely on my ears and trust what I hear based on many years of experience and a lot of discussion with others to better understand how my perceptions differ from.and are similar to others'
@@PassionforSound one needs to do the readings to provide a review based on science and not just beliefs. But if it is just your hobby and something that you do occasionally you do not have to. All you need to do then is to do the double blind listening tests. No expensive equipment required.
@@PassionforSound You are correct: I will never become your regular viewer or patron, not if you will continue to employ ostrich policy of hiding away from truth behind the walls of "black background". PS You say "If you are asking it to change the format of the signal, whilst also maintaining perfect sound quality or even improving it ideally" could you provide an example how a USB bridge could improve sound quality? I can not understand this. Thanks
Thank you for some very informative reviews. I would love you to review the standard dac in found inside mac products. Especially inside the macbooks. I am curious what level they perform at. Best wishes from Norway.
Hi Tor, glad you're enjoying the channel. Unfortunately, I'm a PC user so reviewing the DAC in a Mac would require me buying a laptop I won't use. Sorry!
mac onboard sound output tends to have boomy and uncontrolled bass, mids and highs are not bad but obviously far from details heard on these dedicated DACs.
I have a hard time understanding why this product still exists along side the E30 which is only marginally more expensive but, I suppose hitting the price point remains important because the Modi 3 is so compelling at that price.
Well, honestly, I think they both have a really nice spot on the market. Starting with price, may be a "small amount" in absolute term for you, but in percentage, it is 40-50% more expensive. Talking about inputs and outputs, they have very different ones, the D10s can serve this "special" function and use it as a Bridge that few DACs can, or, when you change DAC, you can use it to provide signal to COAX that has much less noise than USB, many stated this had improve their sound (while this review sad not, probably, like everything it will depend case by case). Concluding, the fact that it is USB powered only it is surely can be seen as a downside but can also be pro. Having the ability to connect directly to a PC can be awesome, especially in a laptop without the need of some AC sockets around. Personally, I'm full of electronic devices, I have 3 power strips almost full under my desk, I don't mind losing maybe a bit of clarity in sound for convenience since it is anyway a big step forward from PC. Also, he compared it with not so fair product. D50s + P50 it is almost 400 euro..4 time the price..I mean..I hope they should be better... E30 + good/linear power will also cost more than 200 (the P50 alone is like 125 euro or the iFi power supply is 50) so yeah..good you can add it but, you will? If you are in the market for a 100 euro DAC, again, we are talking solution more than twice expensive to have better quality.
@@LtColDavenport I agree. I think it's easy to downplay the cost difference in the emerging marketspace as well. With that said, most audiophiles have spent quite a bit on headphones and speakers, so what was a thirty USD price difference at the time really amounts to a nice lunch out for most buyers. Prices have now gone up.
I think for me, the D10S wasn't good enough to justify the cost when the leap in performance from the D10S to E30 was easily justifiable. The D10S bridge performance was particularly poor for me
Hi Lachlan. Do you have any recommendations for a qualityUSB bridge instead of using the rather basic-fi D10s? Any knowledge or view on the SMSL PO100 USB bridge or even the Douk Audio U2 Pro? Best,
I quote your words "If you are asking it to change the format of the signal, whilst also maintaining perfect sound quality or even improving it ideally" could you provide an example how a USB bridge could improve sound quality? I can not understand this. Thanks
Theoretically, a USB bridge could improve sound quality by doing a better job than the transport at clocking the signal correctly (i.e. reducing jitter). It can also help to isolate USB noise coming from the transport and reaching the DAC. In reality, it's not necessarily an improvement though
@@PassionforSound It is a "perfect sound quality" vs "improvement over that" in your statement, which does not make sense. A USB bridge can not introduce anything to the audio which was not originaly there. It is not a perfect sound quality if you hear clicks caused by jitter (does not normally happen in real life anyway). It is not an improvement of a perfect sound quality if something removes jitter on paper without any audible difference.
You're just arguing semantics. If the USB bridge does less damage to the signal transmission then it's an improvement compared to the direct connection with the DAC. As it is, I found the opposite to be true.
@@PassionforSound I am not arguing semantics. I am making a statement that a USB bridge can not "improve" sound quality as you stated, as opposed to leaving signal in "perfect sound quality". This is not what a USB bridge designed for and is not the way it works. There is no hypothetical scenario where it could happen. Mate, you already covered "less damage to the signal" in the first part of the statement where you said that it should leave "perfect sound quality" and should have stopped there without the improvement part.
You can really hear a difference? Considering you have high resolution speakers, you're telling me in a blinded test you are able to to make accurate determinations??
It seems that your review actually makes the argument for an $11 splitter cable to isolate the power. Using then a DC only USB Canare Star Quad cable. And then dropping in a Burson V6 Vivid op-amp. I'd like to see that A/B'd against the stock.
You could definitely seek to improve the sound, but I'd question the value in the investment of time and money when you could just start with a better product (unless you already have the Topping of course)
I doubt how the dragonfly red could sound better than the D10s when the difference in THD, noise etc. is disgusting. SINAD is like 88 dB vs 120dB, and when the audible level is around -115 dB that means it's very likely there's audible distortion and noise present on the dragonfly. Well, to each their own.
It's because there's so much more to it than SINAD. Judging products based on SINAD and similar noise / distortion measurements is like judging how a car drives based on its torque and power specs. There are lots of things that don't show up in specs and measurements.
@@PassionforSound "lots of things that don't show up in specs and measurements" like what? It's still objectively speaking not a great piece of technology, especially for the price. And subjectively speaking a dac shouldn't color the music in one way or another, thus there shouldn't be any reason to talk about their performance subjectively speaking.
Currently, science doesn't understand how our brain takes a complex waveform and breaks it into individual instruments complete with spatial information for each. Therefore, we can't measure how well a product reproduces spatial information, but they all clearly differ. E.g. Denafrips Ares II throws a large soundstage, Chord Qutest smaller, but good, and then Topping D10S throws a flat and quite congested soundstage. There are no measurements that demonstrate this. Next up there's tonal quality. The Topping D10S, Topping E30 and Topping D50S all sound distinctly different, but all measure well according to those basic measures we discussed earlier. So what's the missing measurement that will tell me which one has the correct or preferable tonal character? Then there's transient accuracy. The timing and delivery of the leading edge of notes makes a huge difference to our ability to perceive the sound correctly, but I'm yet to see a measurement that describes how well this is managed. Once again though, it's quite audible to our ears and DACs like the Chord Qutest do it very well while DACs like the Topping D90 and Denafrips Ares II both have problems, but their problems are different from each other. As for DACs colouring the sound, every device on the planet imparts some character to the sound because resistors, capacitors, transistors, op-amps, diodes, etc. all affect the signal in different ways. I've recently reviewed the Elekit TU-8200R DIY amp and have been doing some modifications. The simple act of changing the resistor brand used in the signal path made a significant sonic change. Now, amps are more prone to colouration, but DACs also use all of these components in their output stages and power supplies so therefore they all bring a degree of colouration and that's before we factor in which DAC chip they use and the noise filtering applied by those chips.
@@PassionforSound Alright. Pretty nice response. I still don't understand how above the threshold of hearing THD is somehow acceptable. Transient response is very much a measurable feature of a system too, nothing stops people for testing that to find the differences in "attack" or "speed" Sure coloration of the sound happens on all levels, but shouldn't the goal be to try to be as linear as possible at least on the DAC level. Maybe amp level too? Let the end user choose the kind of sound signature they want with the headphones they choose, but some parts of the chain could actually go for the pure DA conversion instead of trying to alter the sound. There's no mathematic reason to believe that dac a or dac b handles DA conversion differently. It's all based on the same mathematic principles and thus shouldn't make a difference. How do you remove placebo or bias from hearing tests? There's no way to do that.
Your earphones, headphones or speakers have far higher distortion than any current DACs or amps that I'm aware of so I'm not sure that THD is so important. I'm not saying it should be ignored, but it's also not a stat to make decisions around. Can you tell me what the measurement is that defines a product's ability to correctly reproduce the transients in music? I'm yet to see it I think. I agree that colouration in DACs is better avoided, but it's also impossible to completely remove and also very difficult to define what is correct and incorrect so it deserves to be discussed in reviews like this so people can make up their own mind As for listening tests, bias is no doubt a real thing, but there are multiple ways to deal with bias: critical thinking, blind tests, comparisons with multiple products, etc. The reality is that this hobby contains very few, if any, fully measurable, black and white facts when it comes to what sounds good and what does not. Those who wish to make their decisions based entirely on what measurements there are are most welcome to, but I will always value thorough critical listening in addition to the measurements we currently have available to us.
I have the Old d10 i do not Think it sounds god as a solo dac. It needs a good preamp to Sound any good. Even with an external powersupply. I have found that often usb dacs are less controlled and needs a good preamp to sound good. In one of my setups i use a allo usbridge and a d10 optical out into a smsl d1. That Sounds pretty good. Note that im running the d10 with a external powersupply to run the d10 , the usbridge doesnt send power only bits. The d1 needs no preamp when using the optical but needs it when using the usb directly from the allo usbridge.
I think this has a lot to do with price. As we spend more money on a DAC we get better power supplies, better output stages and possibly better implementation of the DAC chip itself.
Right now I’m using a BlueSound Node 2i as a streamer and DAC. I’d like to come out of the BlueSound into the next DAC I buy. Right now, I’m leaning heavily towards the Bifrost 2.
Hello, thanks for the helpful review. A word of advise from you would be appreciated, I am currently running my nad c368 integrated amp via toslink through my PC motherboard(since my amp does not have a USB option), I was wondering if adding this into the chain and connecting PC to D10s and then connecting D10s to nad368 amp via toslink/coaxial would help improve sound quality by any means or degrade it? Looking forward to your advice.
@@PassionforSound It would be also interesting to test, Audioqest jitterbug, iFi Audio iSilencer+ or IFI iPurifier3, which one of this are better working with D10s and generally :-)
Hi Pierre, I haven't looked into interconnects for a while so I don't know all the options, but AudioQuest RCA cables are generally a solid option, even the affordable ones.
Urgent . Doubt: I'm undecided between dx1 and d10s. My question is: which one has the best sound; I will only use the rca outputs connected to a large amplifier with large speakers.
That's beyond me to answer - sorry. You'd need to chat to a technician because it likely involves taking measurements of certain pins while the unit is in use.
Hi! Can you recommand a DAC under $1000 best matching with Soloist 3x performance? I have Stellia, hd800s, Lcd2closed to use. And This video is so helpful btw. I will get this to match with my liquid spark.
Hi JT, that's easy! Schiit Bifrost 2. I'm recording the review today for release in a couple of weeks and it's brilliant! Glad this video was helpful. Hey, can you tell me how the Stellias compares to the HD800S in your experience?
@@PassionforSound Thank you for recommendation. I will get the Bifrost2 for sure. Stellia is a very different sounding headphone compared to Hd800s. Stellia has more sub-bass and low-mid so that I can feel bigger body of the sound and can still hear the details of treble. And ofcourse smaller soundstage on Stellia. Stellia is more like 'all day headphone' and HD800s is used for specific situation such as listening Classic live music or FPS gaming. I really love both.
Thanks for the description. I'm trying to decide whether to buy the Stellias (secondhand) to review and then keep as my go-to closed back. I only used closed about 20% of the time so it's a hard sell
@@PassionforSound I am used to like only open back headphones. But my place was not always silent and suit for listening music with open-back headphones. So I started looking for closed-back. I have Beyer's, Audeze's, AKG's and so on. Some I like, some I don't. I cannot say Stellia is end-game closed back for everyone but $3K Stellia is just worth buy in terms of the sound and the way it looks.
Was reading the measurements and review of this DAC and the Dfly Red. (on ASR). The objective measurements contradict your opinion, if measurements are to corellate with performance.
Hi David, the problem is that they don't. The measurements done on ASR only look at the distortion, noise and channel balance of a DAC. There's much more to the sound quality because these measurements use simple sine waves and sweeps, not complex waveforms like those in actual music. Measurements are a part of the picture, but always trust your ears over measurements.
@@PassionforSound i do but I also believe science. I've have the E30 and the D70 and have heard the Dragonfly and can say when volume matched both Topping DACs sound better-to my ears.
I agree with both of those assessments, but this isn't a question of believing / not believing science. For that to work, science would need to show us the whole picture which it doesn't. It would be like measuring the length of two cars and deciding which is bigger without also measuring the width and height.
Hi Richard, the D10S only has USB in whichb the Chromecast Audio can't supply. You'd be better off (in many ways) with either the Topping E30 or Loxjie D30 - both of which will work via optical and sound better too.
So if i wan't to use this as a bridge it is gonna work just fine. I'm planning to buy D10s and Fiio BTA 30 to get LDAC high quality wireless sound to my sony XM4 headphones! Topping E30 isn't gonna work because i need Coaxial output (and it have only that as input) to plug Fiio BTA 30 in to the PC (Surface Studio 2) for the highest quality possible wich is 192KHz. The question: is there's more like topping D10s out there that have coaxial output for the Fiio BTA 30 or no?
@@PassionforSound Okay, do you have some examples of some good usb coax bridges? Is it gonna be overkill if i buy both d10s and e30 and pair them together with optical cable and complement with bta 30 connected to d10s with coax to listen wirelessly?
Good review, I have a question I hope you can answer. I have an iMac I7 computer, I am feeding out of my headphone jack to a Fosi Audio class Ab 50 watt amp going to 2 Elac 6.2 speakers. My question is if I feed USB from my iMac to the D10S will it give an improvement in sound ? I liked not having to run an additional power source. I expect it is better than the DAC in my iMac? Thanks, William
@@PassionforSound Thank you I ordered the 10 and the 30, I like the 10 better as one less thing to plug into power.. But will see the difference.. I find since 2020 spend lots of time on my computer listening to music. I ended up with Elac 6.2 version 1 and FOSI 50 watt amp class ab. and I think the dac will help the sound a little.. Never dreamed I would say this but tried the $75 Sony bookshelf speakers.. I come from Wilson Audio and some high end speakers and I am really impressed how god the Sony is but think I will stay with Elac 6.2
I haven't tried the Modi 3, but I would personally choose it over the D10S even without hearing it simply because I wasn't particularly impressed by the D10S, but I can't actually say which is better - sorry!
I’m getting a D10s for Christmas, will I be able to plug my iPad into the D10s then RCA from D10s into my Yamaha amp? Will it work that way or is the iPad going to refuse (as usual) to cooperate?
Hi JAZZ MAN, I can't say for sure. If you've had issues with other DACs, I dare say the D10S will be no different. I wonder if you need the adapter cable (is it still called the camera connector or similar?) for your iPad?
Hi Richard, I haven't heard the 6006 to comment, but I'd expect that they should perform similarly or the 6006 to be better as the D10S is nothing special.
I have to ask. I hear some people say that external power should not affect sound quality in any way on a dac. Yet then I see reviews like this that seem to say the opposite. Is this because these dacs are tested on their own without an amp, and therefore the extra power of a dac with extrernal power input helps with better sound to headphones?
Hi ad, no, the external power is all about how clean the power is. I'm no engineer, but my basic understanding is that DACs rely on the ground plain as their reference for "zero" (remember that digital audio is all about 0s and 1s). If the ground plain is noisy then the DAC has a harder time consistently defining when the incoming signal reaches the 1 threshold because it's not as clean as switching on and off, the electronics ramp up to 1 and ramp down to zero so if there's a combination of a slightly slow ramp up/down plus some noise on the ground plain, the DAC might see a difference that looks like a 0, but should have been a 1. This is a very basic explanation and there's probably lots more to it, but that's my understanding. Keep in mind too that measurements are made with sine waves that are repetitive and predictable. Complex audio signals bounce up and down constantly Soni expect this is where measurements also fail to tell us everything there is to know.
@@PassionforSound Ok thanks for the respone. So theoretically there is the possibility that there is no difference between an usb powered dac and an external powered dac if the usb power is able to not have any effect on the sound coming from the usb, but in general it can interfer which is why an extrernal power input is better? I have to say though, I do understand that digital audio is of course nothing but a code of 1's and 0's, but I'm still very confused on how the usb power could interfere with the digital audio signal in a way that it changes certain 1s and 0s, but only in a way that it decreases certain audio qualities, such as soundstage.
@@ad_-yk9bz Your summary is correct. I used to reference a great article by John Swenson to explain this, but it's no longer available since Stereophile bought out a bunch of websites :( I'll do my best to explain how this works, but I'm going from memory and I'm not an engineer... Let's start with a few factors to understand: 1) a DAC uses changing voltages to represent 1s and 0s. Let's say that the voltage swing is 3V so a "1" would be registered anytime the voltage is 1.5V or more and a "0" anytime the voltage is below 1.5V 2) a circuit takes time to change voltages to it doesn't instantly change, but ramps from 0V to 3V over a few fractions of a second. The circuit is constantly changing voltage so part of a good design is how well the circuit discharges to reach 0V and how quickly it can ramp up to 3V (in this example) 3) the voltage is measured using the ground plain as reference for 0V so the DAC works out if the signal is a "1" by calculating the difference between the active signal and the ground (theoretically 0V, but not really) 4) If there is noise in the circuit (e.g. from the USB 5V power) then the ground may be 'polluted' and might read at 0.2V (for example) 5) Circuits all have a degree of capacitance which is a measure of how much something holds a charge. When a DAC circuit is changing voltages, there are tiny delays created by capacitance which mean that the circuit may not hit the exact desired voltage at the moment the data is meant to be read / sample reproduced What all this means is that a DAC is not a perfect on/off switch, but a whole lot of fluctuating voltages. Any noise introduced into the system reduces the DACs margin for error so suddenly what should be a clear cut measurement is muddied by the noise and capacitance in the system which can result in incorrect 1s or 0s. There are so many of these per second that we don't hear them individually, but they create noise / distortion in the DAC. What I don't know is if this same problem shows up in the standard sine wave tests you see on websites or if it's only a problem with the rapidly changing waveforms created by music.
@@PassionforSound Ok thanks for the reply. Quitte complicated for someone who has no experience with audio and any of the technology like me. I think one thing that confuses me is how something like that would have certain negative effects only on certain aspects such as sound stage. For me, that sounds more like some problem that would create inconsistencies with the quality of music you hear, making the quality of songs differ very slightly each time you listen to a certain song. As I would imagine that the undesired noise of the usb power that might interfere with the signal would be random, but of course I don't know since I have no knowledge on that. I was just curious since I actually went with the D10s, as the 30€ less allowed me to get the D10s and L30 without going over my 250€ limit I had in mind when searching for a good dac and amp combo. So I was just curious if that was the right choice or if I should have gone with the E30.
The D10S is fine. You can always upgrade later. The reason the power affects staging is that it limits the brain's ability to isolate sounds when there are tiny errors or noise. Our brain is clever enough to still understand the sounds, but placing sounds in space is more difficult if the sound isn't perfectly reproduced without additional noise.
you can swap OP AMPS and you can make the soud like you want unlike the others dont have this feature. is much better then dac in many receivers or other intergrated dacs in amplifiers or receivers. also if you have good finltration before pc powersuplly you can enjoy nice music. also dont use Tidal or eny other streaming software even when they say high res audio stream as is really bad. i have compare plaing cd from pc and the same music from hi-res streaming and is very bad. anyway fo 100 bucs dac you need to get audio integrated for 600 and up to have better audio. also non class D ampliefiers but normal AB class amplifier which again are not cheap. this solution is much better then intergrated soundcard from pc and many people want to get audio from pc so its very good solution.
Hi Johny, maybe I heard something different, but it don't think this is a particularly good DAC vs the ones in a decent receiver and it's a lot of effort (and cost) to properly filter the PC power. I think it's better to go straight to something like the E30.
@@PassionforSound That might be the case and I am sure it does to your ears, but you can't claim there is a lot of background noise in the D10S when there clearly isn't any in the measurements. The sound signature might not be to your liking but don't start about noise when there are measurements done showing there isn't and the DragonFly actually does have a lot of noise. Technically it is a worse product, it's up to you to pay more and like a technically inferior product, it's a free country. I like the sound signature of my 20 dollar kitchen radio, but that does not make it a better product compared to my hifi setup. ;)
Interesting this usb noise topic/issue, and interesting to use the d10 as converter to optical... Lot of people talk about USB noise, and usb interferences, etc... then there are those measurements saying there is no difference... I guess it will depend on usb source, cable quality and length... some people just skip usb and go for optical only, then again, optical has a much smaller bandwidth... anyhow, no decent dacs or a mid price... Cheap ones are amazing, then from around 700€ and higher there is the ares 2 the rme, the d90... cheap ones e30, modius.... mid prices nothing really decent. soncoz not good, d50s not good e30 better, nothing decent on the 400-300-250-450€ I got me an e30. curios about bifrost or the new joutenheim.
Hi enjoy your reviews, question if you use a rca splitter from dac to 2 amps does this affect the signal or sound quality, or should i use a separate dac for each amp using topping e30 at the moment very happy with it, and could you recommend another dac with a different sound signature to use on tube amps
Hi Steve, there should be no issue splitting the signal once. I use the solid style RCA splitters (rather than cables) to minimise signal loss/change. The biggest issue with splitting is that you're dropping the impedance that the DAC sees and that increases the current required. DACs generally aren't good at producing current, but so long as your amps have a decently high input impedance (normally around 10K ohm) you should be fine. As for a different DAC, it shouldn't really be necessary as a tube amp should have tube characteristics, but not be so different that you need to change your DAC. I'd probably change the amp if it's that far off the mark. However, if you do want something different, I'd maybe look to something like the Schiit Modius (maybe Modi, but I can't say for sure). The Modius is brilliant, especially at the price.
I should add that I haven't compared it directly to the E30 so I'm just sharing what's good. At this price point, I don't think I've heard anything with a drastically different presentation and I'm assuming you're not looking for something smoother than the E30 given that tube amps can tend smoother than chip amps.
Not necessarily as you're trading the drop in impedance for additional complexity in the signal path. I'd go with solid splitters as the first option unless one of your amps happens to have very low input impedance
I’d be happy just to get a sound out of this dac. I have it connected from my iPad air2 then to my hifi amp via rca. The dac lights up right away, but there’s no sound at all.
@@PassionforSound I thought about that and tried the camera adapter thing that lets you provide power too but still not a peep. I then connected it to my laptop which is very much up to date ( it cost just over £2000 so it should be) but again nothing. Unplugged it and reconnected it and so far, the most I can get out of it is faint music dominated by static. Tonight I took out the RCA leads and gave them a blast of deoxit and a wipe clean. Haven’t tried it again yet, but I don’t expect much. Nothing else connected to my hifi has any static.
That's very strange and sounds like a unit failure. Just to check, you are connecting the DAC to a suitable amp to drive your headphones/speakers, yes?
@@PassionforSound Yes, it’s connected to my Yamaha AS 701 amp. I think it’s possible that someone opened it to change the chip and messed it up, then sent it back.
I haven't heard the XD-05 Plus, but I would not expect it to be as good as either of those amps because they have much more substantial power supplies and more space for full size circuitry. It may come close to the THX 789, but I don't think it could get near the A90.
@@PassionforSound thank you for help 😀 I found reviews that say thx 789 is almost same sounding amp as xduoo xD-05 plus and he perfectly fit with burson v5i so...
Can you please recommend what device is good (will give me high quality) for bridge/converting between usb to optical. I have amplifier with dac built in and I want to connect my computer to my amplifier (Hegel h80) with optical cable
Hi Thiago, I missed your comment somehow - sorry! It's an ok USB bridge, but not great. I'd try to spend a little more on a dedicated bridge if at all possible.
Hi Nir, I don't have a lot of experience with bridge devices. You may find you're better served buying a dedicated DAC to feed an analog signal to your amp. I don't know the Hegel gear, but built-in DACs are often inferior to dedicated ones.
@@nirefrati6234 Hi Nir. Take a look at the Allo USB bridge. The Hanz B . channel reviewed a lot of Usb bridges. But they just have a place in hight level set ups.
I guess if you have a DAC with no USB input, but the D10S degrades the quality compared to a direct USB connection so it's not really worth it. Better off spending more on a proper USB to SPDIF device.
I wouldn't worry too much about upsampling on a basic DAC like this. It's never going to sound amazing. Nothing wrong with it, but there are better options for not much more money.
I actually found this to be one of the most honest, well detailed and fair reviews of this dac and very helpful, thanks!
I'm so glad you feel that way!
All of these topping DACs will sound EXACTLY the same in blind testing. The differences in these DACs are barely measurable and not audible. Even with different power supplies. In a double BLIND test, they are all 'the best'. Even professional audio engineers with decades of experience and trained ears can not RELIABLY and CONSISTENTLY tell the difference. Then if some can say 'this one is different' it is usually because the DAC filters are a little different and this will effect the treble volume perception very slightly (1-2 db). Spend your money on headphones (or speakers) and amplifiers not DACs, unless you need certain features in the DAC. I have this D10s coming out of my PC it then runs to my ADI-2 DAC via optical. The ADI-2 DAC sounds exactly they same if I have it on the optical input from the D10s or straight in from the PC via USB. Which is very easy to A-B (not blind, but very quick) just switch inputs via the remote. You can tell the difference? Double blind test or it did not happen. Signed- Not an audiophile.
Exactly. the only difference will be the features. People think they can hear a diference due to expectation bias when they're paying hgiher prices for more expsnive models
In my opinion the main benefit of the D10S is the bait to change the Op-amp. Thanks for the great review!
Changing the op-amp could well have some nice benefits. I didn't try that. Glad you liked the review 🙂
@@PassionforSound For the D10S I would still need something like iFi iDefender+ to separate the power from the audio signal from the computer and a USB bank / Battery to power it up (batteries provide clean power at a lesser cost than a linear PSU; you only need to charge them from time to time…). I’m used to such devices because the USB DACs need them, and I started with dongle / USB DACs about 10 years ago, back then you needed to insert a USB hub between the DAC and the phone to insert DC power when using an iPhone and Android didn’t support USB audio yet. I still enjoy them every day and you could say that I do DAC rolling. Nowadays the only modern dongle DAC that has the noise filtering built-in is Dragonfly Cobalt, with the Cobalt you don’t need a Jitterbug and it could actually be detrimental to use one. So these devices like Audioquest Jitterbug and iFi iDefender+ are still relevant. Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my comments! I really appreciate it.
My pleasure, Andres. It sounds like you've got quite a versatile setup available with your power splitting options, etc.
3:53 Performance as a USB bridge
That's a strong statement. Can you elaborate more on that, maybe on another video?
Thanks!
PS.: Using a FiiO K3 here -- similar price -- and I don't hear any sound degradation when doing digital outs to another DACs.
Hi Fabio, I've sent the D10S to a new home so I can't elaborate, but it was definitely a downgrade when I connected it in the chain compared to a direct USB connection. I can't recall which devices I tested this with, but it may depend on the products used because John Darko found improvements when using the D10S with a Raspberry Pi which has a notoriously poor USB output.
OK, thanks for the reply.
You're welcome
I find this to be highly unlikely...the chip handling the conversion is completely normal and doesn't have any reason to degrade anything. USB jitter is also something that should be eliminated fairly well once you convert to coax or toslink, so that could possibly make things even better. It's after all why you loop DAC's in certain scenarios. Moreover, people who actually measured the output in their reviesw (folks on audio forums for example) rated the spidif converter as completely adequate.
That's an interesting statement to make, Petr, when it sounds like you've never heard it for yourself
I note John Darko compared this to the Modi and found differences in sound signature but broadly comparable quality. Can't remember offhand if the Modi has a separate power input. If it does that may give it the advantage though the Topping has broader signal compatibility.
Darko also suggested using the bridge functionality for using it with active speakers which may lack USB input. Disappointing but not at all surprising that it degrades SQ.
Thanks for letting us know, Jim. The Modi can use power through a separate micro USB socket so you can isolate the power. If it uses the same implementation as the Modius that I'm reviewing now, the external power makes no difference, but that's because Schiit are managing the incoming power much better (on the Modius at least). Between this and the Modi, I'd go for the Modi, but that's based on my Modius experience which may not be 100% indicative.
I find the E30 a better choice, just pair it with an L30 and you are good to go with an excellent setup.
Excellent video!
Totally agree! (About the E30) 😉
Thanks for this review!
I have 2 questions. Why would the sound degrade if used as a bridge? Digital to Digital should not be degraded unless a conversion D to A and then A to D is performed. Also, if I input (by USB) a 192 kHz digital signal, will the Spdif output be also 192 or lower?
Regards,
I believe the output should always match the input on a device like this. Not sure what happens with sample rates above the normal compatible rates of SPDIF, etc.
As for degrading the sound, all digital devices rely on clean power and accurate clocks to produce a great output signal (whether digital or analog). There may also be more factors like processor quality too, but I'm not sure.
I'm actually working on a DDC/USB Bridge video this week and discovering some interesting thinks about these devices so I'll go into depth in the video, but the short answer is that power supply really matters (remember that the D10S is powered by USB which is notoriously dirty) and the quality of the connection from the DDC to the DAC plus which connection types you use can both influence the overall performance. For example, I'd you have a DAC with good, isolated USB implementation like a Bifrost 2, the DDC connected via SPDIF might sound worse. If you have a DAC without an isolated USB circuit, the DDC might sound better. There are lots of variables.
Power supply can be upgraded with Ifi 5v supply plugged into idefender at usb outlet. OP amp inside unit is also easy to swap with a Burson audio or any other of your choosing. Awesome DAC with these upgrades.
That seems like a lot of investment when you could just start with a better DAC. I'm not trying to be an arse, I just don't see the point in buying a super budget DAC and then spending a bunch on peripheral parts. Am missing something?
I agree. You could just get the E30 or schiit modi and be done with it, but if you like to tinker and maybe have a extra ipower and/or op amps, this little guy is a fun one to play around with.
I don't think the Schiit Modi is all that good as it limits the rate and depth. If you have the tunes, you lose out I think. We also have to wait another year now for a Modi Multibit as Schiit has pushed the date back again.
Yes, I just chatted to Jason about that yesterday (full interview coming soon). I would suggest something like the Topping E30 or the SMSL DO100 as a readily available option that's great
@@PassionforSound I just watched your Topping D50s and the P50 videos and I was really leaning toward that as well as possibly the D10s (with upgrades).... You're just making my choices harder mate! But you finally got my sub... And you keep my attention. I am currently using the Hel 2e and I am adding items to my stack. I listen to speakers most often and I am about to remove the Hel to avoid using 2 Preamps in he chain. Running LS50 Meta's and SVS SB-1000 with a decently powered super clean amp in my small room setup. I Just bought the Loki mini+ and the Magni Heresy. As stated, I don't think the Modi is any good... I'm going to sell one of my Hel2 units to put towards a new straight up DAC. The D50s seems decent.
If I watch 5.1 movie on laptop, use this TOPPING sound card with optical SPDIF to the Denon amplifier, what will happen with the channels? Will Denon get all 5.1 channel?
No, DACs like this are simple 2-channel devices and will downmix to stereo only. You need to connect directly to a surround sound receiver for full 5.1.
I'm aware it doesn't have a hardware volume control but can you not use the windows volume slider like other usb audio devices?
Great review and also some very informative responses to commenter's questions.
You can definitely use the operating system volume, but it will degrade sound quality because of how it works. Not a big deal, but worth being aware of.
@@PassionforSound Cheers fella. You wouldn't believe how hard it was to find that out by googling. I'm assuming you're referring to bit stripping-it's just so damn convenient doing it that way. I won't bore you with the details of my setup. Just subscribed btw.
Thanks for subscribing! Yes, it might be bit-stripping, but also the OS sound management often degrades the sound in general too even before you adjust the volume
Hi, nice review! I have a question.
I'm currently using a pair of Qacoustics 3020i passive speakers with Yamaha WXA-50 streaming amplifier being fed from a Mac Mini M1 via 3.5mm to rca cable (I bought these 6months ago and in Indian market these were the only budget options available then). I've recently started to hear static noise on the speakers late at night (not sure if the noise was always there) and found out that it's because of the amp(tried other speakers as well, same result). Interestingly this noise is present when Aux-input is selected on amp, and on bluetooth input the noise is almost reduced to nothing, and on optical the noise is nonexistent. I asked around various forums but nobody could help me so far. I can't afford another expensive amp now. I've decided to get a D10S to use the usb to optical conversion & send it's Toslink output to the yamaha amp. Would you say this is a good decision in my current scenario? Also what should I expect in terms of SQ, better, worse, same? Will I be able to control the volume using my computer keyboard?
Thank you.
Hi Sovon, I think you should expect some improvements in sound, but hard to say how much. I'm not sure what would be causing the issue, but hopefully this setup gets rid of it even if you can't find the cause.
Thank you for the review love your channel. I would also like to have your opinion on the bluesound node2i as a dac and steamer ?
Hi Benoit, so glad you like the channel! I've used a node2i at audio shows, but never listened critically so I can't really comment - sorry!
I bought the d10 s to use as a bridge to another dac. And i agree with you, it makes the sound worse. Something happened when its used as spdif out. I used the coax line out. But it doesnt matter how good the measurements are...the sound is not good enough. I compared it to my bluetooth setup, ifi audio zen using ldac codec, and coax out. And it sounded far better than the usb implementation i used. It has been very hyped, this topping dac, but its not worth the money.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. It's always nice to know I'm not the only one hearing these things 🙂
Thank you for the reivew. Would you please have a look at Douk Audio U2 Pro?
May I please have a look at your measurements from which you draw conclusions about overall audio quality and ecspecially the proof of the fact that the audio signal was degraded when device was acting as a USB bridge? Where is the data that conclusion was based on? Was it based on any objective measurements? Or just a personal perception of a "background being not as dark" not even checked by double blind listening tests?..
Much appreciated.
I don't have a contact for the Douk Audio products so I'm not sure I can try that one.
As for measurements, I'm not setup for testing as it costs $10,000s to buy the proper test equipment (I'll gladly accept donations to help raise those funds). I have to rely on my ears and trust what I hear based on many years of experience and a lot of discussion with others to better understand how my perceptions differ from.and are similar to others'
@@PassionforSound one needs to do the readings to provide a review based on science and not just beliefs. But if it is just your hobby and something that you do occasionally you do not have to. All you need to do then is to do the double blind listening tests. No expensive equipment required.
Thanks for the input, but I'll keep doing the reviews in the style that works for me and the regular viewers, susbcribers and patrons.
@@PassionforSound You are correct: I will never become your regular viewer or patron, not if you will continue to employ ostrich policy of hiding away from truth behind the walls of "black background".
PS You say "If you are asking it to change the format of the signal, whilst also maintaining perfect sound quality or even improving it ideally" could you provide an example how a USB bridge could improve sound quality? I can not understand this. Thanks
Thank you for some very informative reviews. I would love you to review the standard dac in found inside mac products. Especially inside the macbooks. I am curious what level they perform at. Best wishes from Norway.
Hi Tor, glad you're enjoying the channel. Unfortunately, I'm a PC user so reviewing the DAC in a Mac would require me buying a laptop I won't use. Sorry!
mac onboard sound output tends to have boomy and uncontrolled bass, mids and highs are not bad but obviously far from details heard on these dedicated DACs.
I have a hard time understanding why this product still exists along side the E30 which is only marginally more expensive but, I suppose hitting the price point remains important because the Modi 3 is so compelling at that price.
I had similar thoughts and would just buy the E30 every time for the small amount more. It does show what good value the Modi is though
Well, honestly, I think they both have a really nice spot on the market.
Starting with price, may be a "small amount" in absolute term for you, but in percentage, it is 40-50% more expensive.
Talking about inputs and outputs, they have very different ones, the D10s can serve this "special" function and use it as a Bridge that few DACs can, or, when you change DAC, you can use it to provide signal to COAX that has much less noise than USB, many stated this had improve their sound (while this review sad not, probably, like everything it will depend case by case).
Concluding, the fact that it is USB powered only it is surely can be seen as a downside but can also be pro. Having the ability to connect directly to a PC can be awesome, especially in a laptop without the need of some AC sockets around. Personally, I'm full of electronic devices, I have 3 power strips almost full under my desk, I don't mind losing maybe a bit of clarity in sound for convenience since it is anyway a big step forward from PC.
Also, he compared it with not so fair product. D50s + P50 it is almost 400 euro..4 time the price..I mean..I hope they should be better...
E30 + good/linear power will also cost more than 200 (the P50 alone is like 125 euro or the iFi power supply is 50) so yeah..good you can add it but, you will? If you are in the market for a 100 euro DAC, again, we are talking solution more than twice expensive to have better quality.
@@LtColDavenport I agree. I think it's easy to downplay the cost difference in the emerging marketspace as well. With that said, most audiophiles have spent quite a bit on headphones and speakers, so what was a thirty USD price difference at the time really amounts to a nice lunch out for most buyers. Prices have now gone up.
I think for me, the D10S wasn't good enough to justify the cost when the leap in performance from the D10S to E30 was easily justifiable. The D10S bridge performance was particularly poor for me
Hi Lachlan. Do you have any recommendations for a qualityUSB bridge instead of using the rather basic-fi D10s? Any knowledge or view on the SMSL PO100 USB bridge or even the Douk Audio U2 Pro? Best,
Just answered on your other post 🙂
I quote your words "If you are asking it to change the format of the signal, whilst also maintaining perfect sound quality or even improving it ideally" could you provide an example how a USB bridge could improve sound quality? I can not understand this. Thanks
Theoretically, a USB bridge could improve sound quality by doing a better job than the transport at clocking the signal correctly (i.e. reducing jitter). It can also help to isolate USB noise coming from the transport and reaching the DAC. In reality, it's not necessarily an improvement though
@@PassionforSound It is a "perfect sound quality" vs "improvement over that" in your statement, which does not make sense. A USB bridge can not introduce anything to the audio which was not originaly there.
It is not a perfect sound quality if you hear clicks caused by jitter (does not normally happen in real life anyway).
It is not an improvement of a perfect sound quality if something removes jitter on paper without any audible difference.
You're just arguing semantics. If the USB bridge does less damage to the signal transmission then it's an improvement compared to the direct connection with the DAC. As it is, I found the opposite to be true.
@@PassionforSound I am not arguing semantics. I am making a statement that a USB bridge can not "improve" sound quality as you stated, as opposed to leaving signal in "perfect sound quality". This is not what a USB bridge designed for and is not the way it works. There is no hypothetical scenario where it could happen. Mate, you already covered "less damage to the signal" in the first part of the statement where you said that it should leave "perfect sound quality" and should have stopped there without the improvement part.
what dac do you recommend for higher quality than topping D10?
That all comes down to budget, but a good step up without spending a fortune is the Topping E30 Mk2
Rip D10S. Greatest footballer of all time.
You can really hear a difference? Considering you have high resolution speakers, you're telling me in a blinded test you are able to to make accurate determinations??
100%. Some DACs are definitely difficult (even impossible) to pick, but something like the D10S is clearly inferior to higher quality options.
Hello. Please tell me, is Topping D10s really that bad as a converter? If so, can you recommend a good inexpensive converter? Thank you.
I am really not a fan of it. I think the Topping E30, E30 II or SMSL DO100 are far better for not much more money
It seems that your review actually makes the argument for an $11 splitter cable to isolate the power. Using then a DC only USB Canare Star Quad cable. And then dropping in a Burson V6 Vivid op-amp. I'd like to see that A/B'd against the stock.
I see a few have posted similar comments and I've read your responses... Perhaps I will look into the 2 you have mentioned.
You could definitely seek to improve the sound, but I'd question the value in the investment of time and money when you could just start with a better product (unless you already have the Topping of course)
I doubt how the dragonfly red could sound better than the D10s when the difference in THD, noise etc. is disgusting. SINAD is like 88 dB vs 120dB, and when the audible level is around -115 dB that means it's very likely there's audible distortion and noise present on the dragonfly. Well, to each their own.
It's because there's so much more to it than SINAD. Judging products based on SINAD and similar noise / distortion measurements is like judging how a car drives based on its torque and power specs. There are lots of things that don't show up in specs and measurements.
@@PassionforSound "lots of things that don't show up in specs and measurements" like what?
It's still objectively speaking not a great piece of technology, especially for the price.
And subjectively speaking a dac shouldn't color the music in one way or another, thus there shouldn't be any reason to talk about their performance subjectively speaking.
Currently, science doesn't understand how our brain takes a complex waveform and breaks it into individual instruments complete with spatial information for each. Therefore, we can't measure how well a product reproduces spatial information, but they all clearly differ. E.g. Denafrips Ares II throws a large soundstage, Chord Qutest smaller, but good, and then Topping D10S throws a flat and quite congested soundstage. There are no measurements that demonstrate this.
Next up there's tonal quality. The Topping D10S, Topping E30 and Topping D50S all sound distinctly different, but all measure well according to those basic measures we discussed earlier. So what's the missing measurement that will tell me which one has the correct or preferable tonal character?
Then there's transient accuracy. The timing and delivery of the leading edge of notes makes a huge difference to our ability to perceive the sound correctly, but I'm yet to see a measurement that describes how well this is managed. Once again though, it's quite audible to our ears and DACs like the Chord Qutest do it very well while DACs like the Topping D90 and Denafrips Ares II both have problems, but their problems are different from each other.
As for DACs colouring the sound, every device on the planet imparts some character to the sound because resistors, capacitors, transistors, op-amps, diodes, etc. all affect the signal in different ways. I've recently reviewed the Elekit TU-8200R DIY amp and have been doing some modifications. The simple act of changing the resistor brand used in the signal path made a significant sonic change. Now, amps are more prone to colouration, but DACs also use all of these components in their output stages and power supplies so therefore they all bring a degree of colouration and that's before we factor in which DAC chip they use and the noise filtering applied by those chips.
@@PassionforSound Alright. Pretty nice response. I still don't understand how above the threshold of hearing THD is somehow acceptable.
Transient response is very much a measurable feature of a system too, nothing stops people for testing that to find the differences in "attack" or "speed"
Sure coloration of the sound happens on all levels, but shouldn't the goal be to try to be as linear as possible at least on the DAC level. Maybe amp level too? Let the end user choose the kind of sound signature they want with the headphones they choose, but some parts of the chain could actually go for the pure DA conversion instead of trying to alter the sound.
There's no mathematic reason to believe that dac a or dac b handles DA conversion differently. It's all based on the same mathematic principles and thus shouldn't make a difference. How do you remove placebo or bias from hearing tests? There's no way to do that.
Your earphones, headphones or speakers have far higher distortion than any current DACs or amps that I'm aware of so I'm not sure that THD is so important. I'm not saying it should be ignored, but it's also not a stat to make decisions around.
Can you tell me what the measurement is that defines a product's ability to correctly reproduce the transients in music? I'm yet to see it I think.
I agree that colouration in DACs is better avoided, but it's also impossible to completely remove and also very difficult to define what is correct and incorrect so it deserves to be discussed in reviews like this so people can make up their own mind
As for listening tests, bias is no doubt a real thing, but there are multiple ways to deal with bias: critical thinking, blind tests, comparisons with multiple products, etc.
The reality is that this hobby contains very few, if any, fully measurable, black and white facts when it comes to what sounds good and what does not. Those who wish to make their decisions based entirely on what measurements there are are most welcome to, but I will always value thorough critical listening in addition to the measurements we currently have available to us.
Watching from US. Nice job. I’d love to see you do a Bifrost 2 review. I’m very interested in that DAC.
Hi Steve, I'm recording reviews of the Modius and Bifrost 2 today for release in about 2 weeks. 🙂
I have the Old d10 i do not Think it sounds god as a solo dac. It needs a good preamp to Sound any good. Even with an external powersupply. I have found that often usb dacs are less controlled and needs a good preamp to sound good. In one of my setups i use a allo usbridge and a d10 optical out into a smsl d1. That Sounds pretty good. Note that im running the d10 with a external powersupply to run the d10 , the usbridge doesnt send power only bits. The d1 needs no preamp when using the optical but needs it when using the usb directly from the allo usbridge.
I think this has a lot to do with price. As we spend more money on a DAC we get better power supplies, better output stages and possibly better implementation of the DAC chip itself.
Right now I’m using a BlueSound Node 2i as a streamer and DAC. I’d like to come out of the BlueSound into the next DAC I buy. Right now, I’m leaning heavily towards the Bifrost 2.
It's a great leaning! Amazing value and performance.
Hi. Do have any suggesttions of a good amp in the same price cattegory to pair this with? Is there any recomendation in the Topping lineup? Thank you
Hi Jose, I LOVE the Topping L30. It's amazing. Check out my review here on the channel.
Hello, thanks for the helpful review. A word of advise from you would be appreciated, I am currently running my nad c368 integrated amp via toslink through my PC motherboard(since my amp does not have a USB option), I was wondering if adding this into the chain and connecting PC to D10s and then connecting D10s to nad368 amp via toslink/coaxial would help improve sound quality by any means or degrade it? Looking forward to your advice.
Hi Phew, that's really hard to say because I have heard the setup you're currently using, but I think the D10S would likely provide an improvement.
@@PassionforSound Thank you very much for your time and advice. All the best for the future and keep up the great reviews
Thanks Phew. You're welcome!
Nice explanation, you can reduce noise also for usb, with USB LOW NOISE POWER SUPPLY for example AQVOX
Thanks for sharing that!
@@PassionforSound Would be nice if you can do another video with USB LOW NOISE POWER SUPPLY :-)
I'll see what I can arrange. 🙂
@@PassionforSound It would be also interesting to test, Audioqest jitterbug, iFi Audio iSilencer+ or IFI iPurifier3, which one of this are better working with D10s and generally :-)
I have the Jitterbug here actually, but have stopped using it sometime ago because I'm unclear if it improves the sound or just alters it.
Hey :)
What cable would you recommend to plug it into an amplifier like the Marantz pm5005? Thank you !
Hi Pierre, I haven't looked into interconnects for a while so I don't know all the options, but AudioQuest RCA cables are generally a solid option, even the affordable ones.
Iam using a Musical Fidelity M5si, is the Topping DAC better as the internal from the MF?
I haven't heard the MF to comment. Sorry!
If I have the DAC connected to my stereo Is there any way I can then connect the DAC to my TV through the optical output?
Not generally as TVs normally have outputs only, not inputs.
i have arc MK1 which have an optical input and sybasonic DAC. is d10s better than sybasonic. would u recommend buying d10s.
Hi J PJ, I haven't tried the Sybasonic to be able to compare. Sorry!
Urgent . Doubt: I'm undecided between dx1 and d10s. My question is: which one has the best sound; I will only use the rca outputs connected to a large amplifier with large speakers.
I haven't used the DX1 so I can't say - sorry
Could you review the Fiio K5 Pro?
Hi Henry, I'd be very happy to, but it all depends on what I can get on loan so I can't promise it 🙂
Please review PS audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC. It is also a preamp and a headphones amp. The DAC and headphones amp combo is interesting
Hi Fernando, I'll reach out to PS Audio and see what I can arrange
thanks for review
how can i learn how much volt give to opamp ? i need min 6.5 volt for my discrete opamp 994
That's beyond me to answer - sorry. You'd need to chat to a technician because it likely involves taking measurements of certain pins while the unit is in use.
Do you compare DACs you review using an A/B switcher?
Yes, I do, but I also spend time using them exclusively so I can get used to their sound and any uniqueness in their features / functions
Hi! Can you recommand a DAC under $1000 best matching with Soloist 3x performance? I have Stellia, hd800s, Lcd2closed to use. And This video is so helpful btw. I will get this to match with my liquid spark.
Hi JT, that's easy! Schiit Bifrost 2. I'm recording the review today for release in a couple of weeks and it's brilliant!
Glad this video was helpful.
Hey, can you tell me how the Stellias compares to the HD800S in your experience?
@@PassionforSound Thank you for recommendation. I will get the Bifrost2 for sure. Stellia is a very different sounding headphone compared to Hd800s. Stellia has more sub-bass and low-mid so that I can feel bigger body of the sound and can still hear the details of treble. And ofcourse smaller soundstage on Stellia. Stellia is more like 'all day headphone' and HD800s is used for specific situation such as listening Classic live music or FPS gaming. I really love both.
Thanks for the description. I'm trying to decide whether to buy the Stellias (secondhand) to review and then keep as my go-to closed back. I only used closed about 20% of the time so it's a hard sell
@@PassionforSound I am used to like only open back headphones. But my place was not always silent and suit for listening music with open-back headphones. So I started looking for closed-back. I have Beyer's, Audeze's, AKG's and so on. Some I like, some I don't. I cannot say Stellia is end-game closed back for everyone but $3K Stellia is just worth buy in terms of the sound and the way it looks.
Thanks JT
Was reading the measurements and review of this DAC and the Dfly Red. (on ASR). The objective measurements contradict your opinion, if measurements are to corellate with performance.
Hi David, the problem is that they don't. The measurements done on ASR only look at the distortion, noise and channel balance of a DAC. There's much more to the sound quality because these measurements use simple sine waves and sweeps, not complex waveforms like those in actual music.
Measurements are a part of the picture, but always trust your ears over measurements.
@@PassionforSound i do but I also believe science. I've have the E30 and the D70 and have heard the Dragonfly and can say when volume matched both Topping DACs sound better-to my ears.
I agree with both of those assessments, but this isn't a question of believing / not believing science. For that to work, science would need to show us the whole picture which it doesn't. It would be like measuring the length of two cars and deciding which is bigger without also measuring the width and height.
@@PassionforSound sorry-distortion is never desirable and the DF Red exhibits a bit much at full output.
Ultimately it's up to you, but I know which one I'd choose having listened to both. 🙂
Since this does not have a separate power source, will I not be able to plug a smart phone into it using USB C to USB B cable?
Hi Wade, I think it might need too much power, but I've never tried - sorry
Could this dac be used with chrome cast audio audio to amp? If not what streamer should I use?
Thanks
Hi Richard, the D10S only has USB in whichb the Chromecast Audio can't supply. You'd be better off (in many ways) with either the Topping E30 or Loxjie D30 - both of which will work via optical and sound better too.
So if i wan't to use this as a bridge it is gonna work just fine. I'm planning to buy D10s and Fiio BTA 30 to get LDAC high quality wireless sound to my sony XM4 headphones! Topping E30 isn't gonna work because i need Coaxial output (and it have only that as input) to plug Fiio BTA 30 in to the PC (Surface Studio 2) for the highest quality possible wich is 192KHz. The question: is there's more like topping D10s out there that have coaxial output for the Fiio BTA 30 or no?
Hi Oleg, I haven't come across any other DACs like the D10S, but there are pure USB- SPDIF bridges out there
@@PassionforSound Okay, do you have some examples of some good usb coax bridges? Is it gonna be overkill if i buy both d10s and e30 and pair them together with optical cable and complement with bta 30 connected to d10s with coax to listen wirelessly?
It's not something I've used personally so I can't really help there - sorry!
@@PassionforSound ok, thanks!
Good review, I have a question I hope you can answer. I have an iMac I7 computer, I am feeding out of my headphone jack to a Fosi Audio class Ab 50 watt amp going to 2 Elac 6.2 speakers. My question is if I feed USB from my iMac to the D10S will it give an improvement in sound ? I liked not having to run an additional power source. I expect it is better than the DAC in my iMac? Thanks, William
Hi William, I don't have an iMac to specifically test, but I would definitely expect a noticeable improvement using the D10S.
@@PassionforSound Thank you I ordered the 10 and the 30, I like the 10 better as one less thing to plug into power.. But will see the difference.. I find since 2020 spend lots of time on my computer listening to music. I ended up with Elac 6.2 version 1 and FOSI 50 watt amp class ab. and I think the dac will help the sound a little.. Never dreamed I would say this but tried the $75 Sony bookshelf speakers.. I come from Wilson Audio and some high end speakers and I am really impressed how god the Sony is but think I will stay with Elac 6.2
It will be interesting to see how you find the E30 vs the D10. Enjoy!
How does this compare with the Schiit Modi 3?
I haven't tried the Modi 3, but I would personally choose it over the D10S even without hearing it simply because I wasn't particularly impressed by the D10S, but I can't actually say which is better - sorry!
I’m getting a D10s for Christmas, will I be able to plug my iPad into the D10s then RCA from D10s into my Yamaha amp? Will it work that way or is the iPad going to refuse (as usual) to cooperate?
Hi JAZZ MAN, I can't say for sure. If you've had issues with other DACs, I dare say the D10S will be no different. I wonder if you need the adapter cable (is it still called the camera connector or similar?) for your iPad?
@@PassionforSound
I forgot to say, this will be my first DAC. I will probably need the camera connector.
That should do it I think
JAZZ MAN D10S has passed away recently so I’m afraid you aren’t getting him.
@@cookiee7777
Ah, in that case it must be his ghostly wailings I hear and not static.
Would this Dac improve the sound of my marantz 6006 amp?
Hi Richard, I haven't heard the 6006 to comment, but I'd expect that they should perform similarly or the 6006 to be better as the D10S is nothing special.
I have to ask. I hear some people say that external power should not affect sound quality in any way on a dac. Yet then I see reviews like this that seem to say the opposite. Is this because these dacs are tested on their own without an amp, and therefore the extra power of a dac with extrernal power input helps with better sound to headphones?
Hi ad, no, the external power is all about how clean the power is. I'm no engineer, but my basic understanding is that DACs rely on the ground plain as their reference for "zero" (remember that digital audio is all about 0s and 1s). If the ground plain is noisy then the DAC has a harder time consistently defining when the incoming signal reaches the 1 threshold because it's not as clean as switching on and off, the electronics ramp up to 1 and ramp down to zero so if there's a combination of a slightly slow ramp up/down plus some noise on the ground plain, the DAC might see a difference that looks like a 0, but should have been a 1. This is a very basic explanation and there's probably lots more to it, but that's my understanding.
Keep in mind too that measurements are made with sine waves that are repetitive and predictable. Complex audio signals bounce up and down constantly Soni expect this is where measurements also fail to tell us everything there is to know.
@@PassionforSound Ok thanks for the respone. So theoretically there is the possibility that there is no difference between an usb powered dac and an external powered dac if the usb power is able to not have any effect on the sound coming from the usb, but in general it can interfer which is why an extrernal power input is better?
I have to say though, I do understand that digital audio is of course nothing but a code of 1's and 0's, but I'm still very confused on how the usb power could interfere with the digital audio signal in a way that it changes certain 1s and 0s, but only in a way that it decreases certain audio qualities, such as soundstage.
@@ad_-yk9bz Your summary is correct.
I used to reference a great article by John Swenson to explain this, but it's no longer available since Stereophile bought out a bunch of websites :( I'll do my best to explain how this works, but I'm going from memory and I'm not an engineer...
Let's start with a few factors to understand:
1) a DAC uses changing voltages to represent 1s and 0s. Let's say that the voltage swing is 3V so a "1" would be registered anytime the voltage is 1.5V or more and a "0" anytime the voltage is below 1.5V
2) a circuit takes time to change voltages to it doesn't instantly change, but ramps from 0V to 3V over a few fractions of a second. The circuit is constantly changing voltage so part of a good design is how well the circuit discharges to reach 0V and how quickly it can ramp up to 3V (in this example)
3) the voltage is measured using the ground plain as reference for 0V so the DAC works out if the signal is a "1" by calculating the difference between the active signal and the ground (theoretically 0V, but not really)
4) If there is noise in the circuit (e.g. from the USB 5V power) then the ground may be 'polluted' and might read at 0.2V (for example)
5) Circuits all have a degree of capacitance which is a measure of how much something holds a charge. When a DAC circuit is changing voltages, there are tiny delays created by capacitance which mean that the circuit may not hit the exact desired voltage at the moment the data is meant to be read / sample reproduced
What all this means is that a DAC is not a perfect on/off switch, but a whole lot of fluctuating voltages. Any noise introduced into the system reduces the DACs margin for error so suddenly what should be a clear cut measurement is muddied by the noise and capacitance in the system which can result in incorrect 1s or 0s. There are so many of these per second that we don't hear them individually, but they create noise / distortion in the DAC.
What I don't know is if this same problem shows up in the standard sine wave tests you see on websites or if it's only a problem with the rapidly changing waveforms created by music.
@@PassionforSound Ok thanks for the reply. Quitte complicated for someone who has no experience with audio and any of the technology like me. I think one thing that confuses me is how something like that would have certain negative effects only on certain aspects such as sound stage.
For me, that sounds more like some problem that would create inconsistencies with the quality of music you hear, making the quality of songs differ very slightly each time you listen to a certain song. As I would imagine that the undesired noise of the usb power that might interfere with the signal would be random, but of course I don't know since I have no knowledge on that.
I was just curious since I actually went with the D10s, as the 30€ less allowed me to get the D10s and L30 without going over my 250€ limit I had in mind when searching for a good dac and amp combo. So I was just curious if that was the right choice or if I should have gone with the E30.
The D10S is fine. You can always upgrade later.
The reason the power affects staging is that it limits the brain's ability to isolate sounds when there are tiny errors or noise. Our brain is clever enough to still understand the sounds, but placing sounds in space is more difficult if the sound isn't perfectly reproduced without additional noise.
you can swap OP AMPS and you can make the soud like you want unlike the others dont have this feature. is much better then dac in many receivers or other intergrated dacs in amplifiers or receivers. also if you have good finltration before pc powersuplly you can enjoy nice music. also dont use Tidal or eny other streaming software even when they say high res audio stream as is really bad. i have compare plaing cd from pc and the same music from hi-res streaming and is very bad. anyway fo 100 bucs dac you need to get audio integrated for 600 and up to have better audio. also non class D ampliefiers but normal AB class amplifier which again are not cheap. this solution is much better then intergrated soundcard from pc and many people want to get audio from pc so its very good solution.
Hi Johny, maybe I heard something different, but it don't think this is a particularly good DAC vs the ones in a decent receiver and it's a lot of effort (and cost) to properly filter the PC power. I think it's better to go straight to something like the E30.
Aw yes - dragonfly red owner here, shall sleep well tonight
Yep, you've still got a great product! 🙂
Measurements don't tell the whole story. The DF Red is the better sounding product.
@@PassionforSound That might be the case and I am sure it does to your ears, but you can't claim there is a lot of background noise in the D10S when there clearly isn't any in the measurements. The sound signature might not be to your liking but don't start about noise when there are measurements done showing there isn't and the DragonFly actually does have a lot of noise. Technically it is a worse product, it's up to you to pay more and like a technically inferior product, it's a free country. I like the sound signature of my 20 dollar kitchen radio, but that does not make it a better product compared to my hifi setup. ;)
Interesting this usb noise topic/issue, and interesting to use the d10 as converter to optical... Lot of people talk about USB noise, and usb interferences, etc... then there are those measurements saying there is no difference... I guess it will depend on usb source, cable quality and length... some people just skip usb and go for optical only, then again, optical has a much smaller bandwidth...
anyhow, no decent dacs or a mid price... Cheap ones are amazing, then from around 700€ and higher there is the ares 2 the rme, the d90... cheap ones e30, modius.... mid prices nothing really decent. soncoz not good, d50s not good e30 better, nothing decent on the 400-300-250-450€ I got me an e30. curios about bifrost or the new joutenheim.
Bifrost 2 will help out there. Great DAC!
And the D10S is really not a good bridge.
Hi enjoy your reviews, question if you use a rca splitter from dac to 2 amps does this affect the signal or sound quality, or should i use a separate dac for each amp using topping e30 at the moment very happy with it, and could you recommend another dac with a different sound signature to use on tube amps
Hi Steve, there should be no issue splitting the signal once. I use the solid style RCA splitters (rather than cables) to minimise signal loss/change. The biggest issue with splitting is that you're dropping the impedance that the DAC sees and that increases the current required. DACs generally aren't good at producing current, but so long as your amps have a decently high input impedance (normally around 10K ohm) you should be fine.
As for a different DAC, it shouldn't really be necessary as a tube amp should have tube characteristics, but not be so different that you need to change your DAC. I'd probably change the amp if it's that far off the mark. However, if you do want something different, I'd maybe look to something like the Schiit Modius (maybe Modi, but I can't say for sure). The Modius is brilliant, especially at the price.
I should add that I haven't compared it directly to the E30 so I'm just sharing what's good. At this price point, I don't think I've heard anything with a drastically different presentation and I'm assuming you're not looking for something smoother than the E30 given that tube amps can tend smoother than chip amps.
@@PassionforSound would using the pre outs of L30 be a better option than using slitters
Not necessarily as you're trading the drop in impedance for additional complexity in the signal path. I'd go with solid splitters as the first option unless one of your amps happens to have very low input impedance
@@PassionforSound thanks for your advice
I’d be happy just to get a sound out of this dac. I have it connected from my iPad air2 then to my hifi amp via rca. The dac lights up right away, but there’s no sound at all.
Not sure if it can work from an iPad, JAZZ MAN. Itight not provide sufficient power for operation beyond just lighting up the display.
@@PassionforSound
I thought about that and tried the camera adapter thing that lets you provide power too but still not a peep. I then connected it to my laptop which is very much up to date ( it cost just over £2000 so it should be) but again nothing. Unplugged it and reconnected it and so far, the most I can get out of it is faint music dominated by static. Tonight I took out the RCA leads and gave them a blast of deoxit and a wipe clean. Haven’t tried it again yet, but I don’t expect much. Nothing else connected to my hifi has any static.
That's very strange and sounds like a unit failure. Just to check, you are connecting the DAC to a suitable amp to drive your headphones/speakers, yes?
@@PassionforSound
Yes, it’s connected to my Yamaha AS 701 amp. I think it’s possible that someone opened it to change the chip and messed it up, then sent it back.
That might be it. Definitely sounds like a product failure
Is op amp like high tech burson v6 or ss3601 better sounding than th789 or a90?
It all depends on the amp you install the op-amp in.
@@PassionforSound on xduoo xD-05 plus. Do you think it will sound good as thx or a90?
I haven't heard the XD-05 Plus, but I would not expect it to be as good as either of those amps because they have much more substantial power supplies and more space for full size circuitry. It may come close to the THX 789, but I don't think it could get near the A90.
@@PassionforSound thank you for help 😀 I found reviews that say thx 789 is almost same sounding amp as xduoo xD-05 plus and he perfectly fit with burson v5i so...
Great. In that case, depending on what you can fit in the xD-05, you should have yourself a great amp!
I always have these questoin, if this device will be a good usb bridge to my Dac/ amp.
Thanks.
Can you please recommend what device is good (will give me high quality) for bridge/converting between usb to optical. I have amplifier with dac built in and I want to connect my computer to my amplifier (Hegel h80) with optical cable
Hi Thiago, I missed your comment somehow - sorry! It's an ok USB bridge, but not great. I'd try to spend a little more on a dedicated bridge if at all possible.
Hi Nir, I don't have a lot of experience with bridge devices. You may find you're better served buying a dedicated DAC to feed an analog signal to your amp. I don't know the Hegel gear, but built-in DACs are often inferior to dedicated ones.
@@nirefrati6234
Hi Nir. Take a look at the Allo USB bridge. The Hanz B . channel reviewed a lot of Usb bridges. But they just have a place in hight level set ups.
Why do you need d10s acts as a bridge. Can you just plug the source to the better DAC instead of going through the D10s
I guess if you have a DAC with no USB input, but the D10S degrades the quality compared to a direct USB connection so it's not really worth it. Better off spending more on a proper USB to SPDIF device.
@@PassionforSound what is proper by you ? Givme model
I can't recommend a specific model because I haven't tried any myself, but the Gustard U12 is the type of device in taking about.
The only problem is that d10s can only reach 384khz at most
I wouldn't worry too much about upsampling on a basic DAC like this. It's never going to sound amazing. Nothing wrong with it, but there are better options for not much more money.