What Is Banned In Commander And Why?
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- Unban it all! Not really, but I have some really hot takes on which cards should be banned and which should not.
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my response to the comments: ua-cam.com/video/aUcxOpslp60/v-deo.html&ab_channel=EDHDeckbuilding
The big thing with stuff like Ancestral Recall, Time Walk and the moxes is that they do work even in casual games, simply because of how easy it is to just slot these cards into your deck if you had access to them. There's no need to play them in an abusive combo or dream scenario, the floor with these is already so incredibly high. There isn't a single blue deck on this planet that would say no to a 1 mana draw 3 or a 2 mana extra turn, where as with more balanced, more expensive counterparts, there may be more of a discussion to be had. So now we introduce more autostaples into the format, which we honestly already have more than enough of, except these auto staples also cost thousands of dollars. And yes, there are other cards legal in the format that also cost a lot of money, but I would argue with the exception of maybe Gaea's Cradle, they're seldom auto includes. To be wanting to play something like Tabernacle, you are already playing a very specific type of deck. It doesn't slot into everything, where as most of the power 9 cards do, no matter what deck and no matter if we're playing casual or not.
With Prophet of Kruphix, I think the main argument is that it simply does too much on the same card. Prophet was an autoinclude in pretty much every single Simic deck simply because those decks are already inherently built to abuse this type of effect. It "only untapping lands and creatures" vs Seedborne untapping everything doesn't really matter here, since that is your whole mana base in those decks anyway. And they're filled to the brim with "Play a creature, draw a card" effects. It is super easy to turn this into a couple more extra turns for you more or less because of how easily it slots into the core strategy of these colors anyway. For you to do the same thing with Seedborne muse, you need at least 1 other piece that also gives you flash.
Recurring Nightmare I feel like is actually much more oppressive in a casual context than it is in a competitive one. In competitive, you more or less have to use this as part of a loop, because there are way cheaper ways to bring your creatures back. But then again, these decks already run combos that are easier to pull off. It is however a nightmare (haha) to deal with in a casual game, simply because of how hard it is to interact with while also just bringing repeated value. This would only see play in casual games, but is also too oppressive for that context I feel, and would likely slot into almost every black reanimator or aristocrat deck, which is like 90% of black decks lol.
Nice explanation. On the point of expensive staples being put in the format I completely agree that would be problematic. But I love to boast that I play budget so I never play those cards so I also lose a lot.
I agree 100% and I do think that the dollar amount of those cards should totally be taken into consideration. It's much easier to rule 0 and say power 9 is allowed in my play group because we all own them or are fine with running proxies than it is to show up to a convention and play with a random person running a $50,000 deck. As well as the potential homogeny that it would potentially create.
what blue deck would say no to rhystic study? what red deck would say no to dockside extortionist? this is already an issue in the format, so banning cards changes nothing. this argument means that we should ban any auto-include in the format.
@@tristenbruce1362 i know people who think that a $500 deck is expensive. so banning cards based on price is purely subjective.
@@edhdeckbuildingoth Rhystic Study and Dockside Extortionist are disliked and have had calls to be banned. Dockside was even being looked into by the rules committee. Hell, even the beloved poster child of our format, Sol Ring, has been subject to ceaseless calls for it to be banned for years precisely because it's THE auto-include of the format. Auto-includes are largely disliked in most TCGs and are often banned(see Yu-Gi-Oh's Maxx "C" for an adventure regarding auto-includes). On top of that, EDH is a format which specifically encourages deck variance.
You say banning something on account of it being an auto-include doesn't fix the issue, but unbanning auto-includes actively makes the issue worse by furthering a decrease in deck diversity.
Banning cards for nearly any reason is purely subjective. The people in charge decide what to ban based on criteria they believe makes the healthiest format for the largest number of people. The EDH ban list can be so devisive specifically because of how subjective the game as a whole is.
And $500 IS expensive for A LOT of people.
Let's just look at the USA:
•Average monthly rent of a 1 bedroom apartment is roughly $1.2k/month.
•The poverty line is $14.5k/year, or $1.2k/month.
•In 2022, 14.4% (just over 1/7) of the population was living below the poverty line.
• The USA population numbers over 330 million, of which 1-in-7 is over 47 million people.
These are people who struggle to both pay rent and feed themselves. God forbid they have a family to support, as well.
Precons can be bought for $40 and under. Budget decks are often under $100, and even that prices plenty of people out of the game entirely. Hobbies are expensive, and playing trading card games was, is, and will continue to be a pricey hobby that many people can't afford to take part in. But making a casual format demand that players spend thousands of dollars for a chance at winning is actively harmful to the growth of the game.
I'm of the opinion that WotC needs better reprint policies; not just Secret Lairs, undersupplied precons, and fancy premium packs. The current asking price for a Commander Masters precon is around $90, and a box of 24 set boosters is $444(on sale.) These are AMAZON prices. I shudder to think what a small LGS would have to charge to cut a profit.
My group has put a bandage on that problem by unbanning proxies, but not everyone has that luxary.
just to help you understand the differences in flash hulk combo and thassa:
flash hulk works instandspeed so you can win in enermies turns, means every player needs to hold interaction to every time if they even have one.
yeah it might not need a ban in edh but for cedh its one of those "i can win turn 0", "i win cause i place my things last on the stack" and "if you dont play blue, you have no interactions at all outside of shutdowns, so everyone plays shutdowns and mulligan till they have those on hand..." thassa is close on the interaction side, but far in the timming side ^^.
thoracle can also be done at instant speed.. Plenty of ways to do that. It's easier, less mana and less points to interact than flash hulk combo lines.
Last time I check flash hulk was 2 mana where consulation oracle is 3
Further proof that EDH and CEDH should be split into 2 formats.
@@SeraphimKnight I like it unified. Gives me a nice card pool to work with
@@Taphosthewarlockjust wrong. Flash hulk is one less mana, and if you are doing thoracle at instant speed it would be more mana and cards needed (three card combo is much harder to pull off)
“Black Lotus doesn’t end the game… mana doesn’t end the game…”. LOL!
I love your channel, but that’s about the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard anyone say in the entire history of words.
Pretty much every degenerate thing you can do in Magic needs mana, and cards like Black Lotus just let you do them before your opponents can reasonably respond or interact.
His takes are even wilder this time around lol He's defending recall and time walk and comparing black lotus to jeweled lotus!
Tinker may be the single most powerful card ever printed. You can get Bolas’ Citadel, Chromatic Orrery, Great Henge…
I was once in a game when someone is about to cast a spell and says, “I found this card, but no one plays it. It seems really good, though.” They then proceed to cast Tinker. 😂
That might have been me. I used it to get a janky card for my deck not realizing it was banned. Lots of cards can be abused. I choose not to abuse them in a casual game. 😂
this was me but with recurring nightmare. oh look at this mono black sac outlet from some old set. One of my pod buddies knew the card and was like that card is banned because it enables loops
What you say about paradox engine, I say about prophet of kruphix. A very strong value engine, combo enabler that not only leads to 20 minute turns, but 20 minute turns on everybody else's turns as well. It's the perfect simic engine and was such a miserable experience to play again
Mana and card draw don't win games? Literally in what universe? The core fundamentals of how magic works is that mana advantage and card draw are the most powerful effects in the game. In commander mana is especially good because you always start the game with a bomb in your command zone.
Not ALWAYS. A few of my most POWERFUL(lying annoying) decks have a 2 or 3 cost commander.
*Manifest Destiny, The Mirror Universe (Gretchen Twitchwillow [GU]):* has 35 spells, and about 50 utility land, INCLUDING animating lands for creatures. Uses several "reveal the top X cards" effects to grab more land, and a few effects to play more land PLUS play them from the graveyard (my record is using the same sac land eight times in one game).
*The Barracks, Its Full of Soldiers (Baird, Argivian Recruiter [RW]):* lives up to the name. But it ALSO is loaded with equipment cards to boost power, and a few token makers. Then I either swarm with the Hoard of DaBoyz, or toss voltron'd tokens at thier face with Fling effects.
*Cereal Killer (Tymaret, the Murder King [BR]):* LOADS of low-cost critters with ETB and LTB effects, some persistent critter recursion, and "Michael Meyers" just won't STAY dead...but I rarely pull him from the command zone more than once.
*Throw the Book At You! (Codie, Vociferous Codex [3]):* NEVER cast him on turn 3! Why? Because I'm using a dozen 2to5 cost creatures with triggered abilities for instants and sorceries. Get one or two into play first, THEN Codie. Also load up every "learn" spell, so that you get two spell CARDS for every ONE. Between this and each (yes, you read that right) Codie tossing TWO spells into your graveyard each turn, it very VERY quickly fills (faster if using a lot of cantrips). Win condition is playing a spell that grows based on non-creatures in your graveyard, like Fractal Summoning. And people say Strixhaven was a useless set, lol.
Demo, I appreciate the perspective video, and agree on many points, though have to bring up a few things.
You have a tendency to think of the cards in a vaccuum. Teferi's Protection with half of these cards is an auto win on next untap, or just about. Ban Teferi's Protection instead? I feel it's crucial for W to keep up with the pace of other colors, though I wish it had more white pips.
Also, especially with Time Walk, it's not that you're doing TW on turn 1 or 2, it's that when you get to turn 5-7 and you're doing some nutty stuff, and for only 2 mana, you can do it again, possibly infinitely. Especially on an Isochron Scepter. Again, ban Isochron? Or ban the outlier of a multitude of similar cards?
My main thing on Magic and Banned cards is: If it completely ruins the game every time it's played, it needs to be looked at, at least. Secondly, lack of reprints of staple cards (specifically commander specific/exclusive cards and older cards [reserve list]) limits people on the level and timing of interaction. I have a few Fierce Guardianships that I play, but only use to backup a win or stop a win. Price makes interaction limited, thus limiting what you want/can stop.
Interaction makes games, not necessarily wins them.
I think you may be mistaken about the cheap mana/carddraw/turns effects. It's not what they produce on their own but the value of everything around it as well. I play pretty casual commander with friends about once every 2 weeks and we have begun to realize that a lot of games are decided not by boardstate, but by who has drawn the most cards that game or that accelerated hard at the start. This has changed threat assessment somewhat but it would just be a bigger problem with more cheap mana and more carddraw effects. The cheap spells can be played every game, and combos that start a bit early are problematic imo because it limits what cards can fit in a commander deck.
3:05 - This card has been discussed a hundred times over the years, and it just isn't close to ban material. You sit down to a four player game, and your opponents have a combined total of 120 life. Drop Serra Ascendant on turn 1, then attack on turn 2. Assuming no interaction, removal, or blockers, you could focus on one player and finally kill them by turn 8. I've never seen it happen. It's a great card, certainly, as it would also double your life during those turns, but it has no native protection, and it has to play an aggro game, which would most certainly position you as archenemy. Even when I have dropped a turn 1 Serra Ascendant (in my Karlov weaponized lifegain deck), it usually hits three or four times (spread around) before eating removal.
So 18/24 dmg from a 1 drop isnt enough for you? U on drugs?
@@aklepatzky 18-24 damage while making yourself the archenemy in a format where people rarely die to exact damage (usually massive overkill or a combo) - yeah, it's really not that bad. I've played it and I've played against it, and it just isn't ban-worthy. Also, ad hominem attacks are for people without an argument.
While I am mostly against banning cards in commander, I still think cards like ancestral recall should stay banned for the variety of the format. You mention how an opponent drawing three cards on turn one is not that broken but that's literally the floor of the card . The card has the potential to be way more broken. The low CMC makes it much easier to exploit by casting multiple copies etc. But even if that's not the case even for commander its very efficient. If you're playing blue what reason is there for not including it? By un-banning the card you are now at a disadvantaged if you play any other similar blue card draw spell. (If i have a graveyard deck i might play treasure cruise, if i have a fliers deck i might play winged words etc.) Why play either of those cards if i just have a strictly better upgrade. The point is not that strictly better upgrades should be banned. Its more that by being banned it keeps these other niche cards more playable, thus you get more variety in the format.
If the card is unbanned at best it becomes an auto-include staple in all blue decks, thus limiting deck construction, At worst it becomes another mana crypt / ancient tomb expensive include card that's there just to power up pricey decks.
I say unban the Power Nine because A) how often would you actually see them? And B) how good would it feel to remove/counter someone's card that costs more than your car? >:)
@@zachariahpoltergeist4516 proxies tho
@@B0BBYL33J0RD4N Boo. No proxies unless you actually own a copy of the card.
@@zachariahpoltergeist4516 wotc is a crappy company and why should I be forced to spend a grand or more for any card. So i proxy and play online away
@@zachariahpoltergeist4516 but then owning the power nine becomes a thing that gives you an advantage in EDH. Sure, countering a black lotus would be fun, but not having the counter/ being forced to counter it would make the game far less fun. Plus removing them is basically a non-factor, since most aren't intended to be used for lasting effects, and destroying a mox is the same effect as destroying a mana rock.
For me personally having more fast mana legal means it would show in causal more regardless of wether it’s causal or not because people want to win
I agree. Especially with how widely accepted proxies are now. I've been in play groups where people have dual lands and fast mana proxies in every deck they own, whether they own a single copy or not. It stagnates the format in my opinion.
My understanding is that a lot of the somewhat confusing bans like Balance, Braids, and Erayo are "signpost bans". They aren't banned because of what they are/do, they are banned in order to inspire/encourage/give an example of rule 0 discussions around what types or effect you do or do not want to see in your playgroup, with Balance representing "reset" effects that can lead to exceptionally long games, Braids addressing the elephant of stax/resource denial strategies, and Erayo filling in for the non-stax, counter heavy, "keep everyone from playing until I find my combo" style decks. The bans are likely redundant _to established players_ that already know what they enjoy playing/playing against, but are important for helping new players goldfishing lists at home before an FNM to understand what types of effects are acceptable/enjoyable, if a new player sits down at a table and whips out their Kambal "30 counterspells and Dramatic Sceptre" deck you can point at Erayo being banned to explain why people might not be ok with that while stifling the "it's not banned so I should be allowed to play it" argument
Sure but how many people will have a discussion? I mean I am all in for a good pregame conversation. But thats not the actual culture
@@dariocampanella7992 This. Most games of EDH are just randos at a store pulling out their decks and slamming cards.
And my response is "if that's the problem then ban the cards that actually cause that, and if people want to play them anyways they can just rule zero it."
I feel like a lot of these cards are banned because they would go in essentially every deck that can play them - just ubiquitously powerful effects that would be auto-includes in the format. This is the argument a lot of folks have about wanting to ban Sol Ring and Mana Crypt - because with enough auto include staples, the variation starts to go way down, diminishing the uniqueness of each deck and the fun variability of playing Commander.
This is essentially what I was trying to say. Well put.
Maybe from a power level standpoint, but I went through and counted 8 or 9 out of 45 that I would even consider in every single applicable deck. One being Chaos Orb lol
Ancestral recall would be the blue Sol Ring if it was unbanned don't you think?
Its similar in that it gives tons of value for minimal cost
its also $700 dollars
@@Rook986 it's a little more than that.
@@Rook986 add another 10k lol
Rhystic Study is already the blue Sol Ring and, in commander, is better than Ancestral Recall. People already intentionally don't powerful cards in order to reach their preferred power level. Ancestral Recall is no different
A lot of the answers to these cards is "Oh, you just need to have a counterspell, instant speed removal, and mass artifact removal and your fine!" ignoring the fact that you need be playing those colors, have them in hand and not have your opponents do anything.
Yeah exactly. Especially the thing with the Panoptic Mirror. How does Black or Blue deal with an panoptic mirror that is played in a Blue or even Dimir deck? not that hard to make this thing indestructible. And is playing way too much removal even Casual Commander or is it CEDH? 🤔
It's the age old arguement of "Dies to Removal", so I feel you
@whenthechipsaredown9355so you choose to play a mono color deck instead of splashing a color that can help supplement the color’s weaknesses, in the face of not knowing what decks you might play against, and you conclude that instead of building a deck that can be more versatile and handle multiple threats, that it’s the other players fault for running cards that you can’t interact with.
Do I have that right?
Or are your two color decks not enough either and so you’re saying you need 3 or more colors? Because that’s just not true. You can cover most types of removal in 2 color combinations.
Either way that sounds like a deck building issue, not a broken cards issue. Not having the removal you need in your deck is not the opponent’s fault. And if you want to play certain mono color commander’s, that’s entirely fine. But to push off those weaknesses that can come with that onto your opponents building their own decks independent from you is just not going to win you any more games.
@WhenTheChipsAreDown playing mono color is not an excuse for not having interaction. Every color has interaction be at a kill spell, counter spell, or a Stax piece.
@@1996BlueMan how does Red deal with enchantments, though? Only cards I know are wild magic surge, chaos warp and unstable obelisk.
You always argue "just play more removal" when A lot of people don't heavily play removal in casual commander because to much removal is considered to be not casual. Obviously you want some removal but if you are all the time removing things people will start to target you simply for the sake of removing you so they can play the game out.
My casual mizzix of the izmagus deck runs 10 counterspells and people still argue that I need more removal/interaction casual is starting to get the idea that removal is not just competitive
I think ultimately “casual commander” is subjective thus as some of the ban cards in my opinion. At the end of the day, before playing into a new playgroup discuss the power level of each other players decks. From there if you cannot keep up at the level then transfer to another playgroup.
The problem I see is what power lvl is your deck really? For example I would say my kaalia with chrome mox, and mox opal is a 7 but people want ro call it 9 or 10 because they built a bad deck. It is no where near as strong as others classify it, but the second you run a proper manabase, and throw in a few cheap rocks to beat the curve the perception of power shoots to the moon.
@@ZeroKOR1 I will say “yes” regarding to your statement. I had one encounter that I had smothering tithe by turn two because I had Mox Opal, Sol Ring and my plain land by turn one. Furthermore one of the opponents was complaining that I am playing CEDH which was not the case of the game. Ultimately, I had won by turn eight with Sword of Feast and Aggravated Assault. I think it dims down on perception of how you view the power level of a deck. That is why it is subjective to person to person. I may consider my boros deck (Ryeui storms edge) a 7.5 out of 10. While another person considers it a 9 out of 10.
Hard no on Prophet Of Kruphix. This card dominated games while it was legal. The decks that ran this had no problems progressing their board on each and every turn, and answered any removal pointed at it. Removal today is better then ever, but so are the ways to defend against it. Until its banning, I had never seen a game this didn't win on its own.
Agreed. I had to pull it from 4-5 decks when it got banned, and I fully support the ban. You should have seen Animar go off with Prophet on the field.
A common misconception of Demo is that cEDH and Commander are two different formats. Hint: They are not. It's just a guideline. And that is why you need some cards to be banned.
He said that they need to be 2 different formats not they are 2 different formats. Tbh I wouldn't mind if they split it into 2 different formats
@@rpgplayz7085 but like they said, its not always possible to separate the cedh and edh players when there isn't enough people to have multiple pods. also not everyone has a cedh deck or just a edh deck. i know i had to go out of my way to make a edh deck because i only played cedh for years.
@@rpgplayz7085 The problem with splitting the two formats up and having two different banlists is that you will 100% be getting people playing CEDH using the “casual EDH” banlist. I’m pretty sure nobody would play that new curated banlist. Like “here we go guys, we made your competitive format worse while we made the casuals’ banlist more powerful”
I mean, they are in effect. People who play cedh tend to actually play separate "commander adjacent" competitive formats. Those curate their own separate banlists and you can easily argue that they are more representative of what cedh is.
Most commander players will never event meet one of them or even know that kind of detail so it's pointless bringing them up. The people interested in that style of play aren't going to wait for the RC to patch things either, so the opposite should not be true.
I think commander is going through a pretty serious identity crisis. It probably has for a long time, but after absorbing this discourse about bans and the state of edh for years, i think we're approaching a crossroads we can't come back from. To me, it seems like we're going to have to decide what edh is about. Originally, the concept was taking a look at mtg and going, "how can I make a new and interesting experience with this?" And then you gather all your friends together and you have a sort of boardgame like experience. But then commander gets noticed, and wizards starts pushing it. I think that the issue becomes a little clearer if you imagine commander as if it was just its own game, as if regular 60 card didn't exist. In this context, we find we've gone from a diverse format, to a psuedo meta. The problem is, unlike 60 card formats like modern or standard, that's the assumed formula. They release cards, and the best decks rise to the top and if some are ubiquitous to the point of choking diversity, they knock out a card or two. Edh doesn't and can't work that way, the sheer level of personalization and lack of uniformity, despite a clear and obvious powerful psuedo meta that magic players tend to participate in when we play with strangers, makes it so bans can only achieve so much. Ultimately, I think we've run into the issue simply that edh's capacity to make wizards money, their choosing to push it, has incentivized treating edh like a format that needs regulation and in a format like ours where hundreds of cards get added basically every two months now, bans would probably be everywhere. The type of format edh is supposed to be, based on bannings of some cards and not others, appears to be a question the RC doesn't want to definitively land on, nor are they willing to stomp on Wotc's design toes. I'm not criticising them for that though, realistically they have no good reason to do that. I think the decentralized nature of this format means we need some sort of proper community body that can actually be influenced directly by community input, by the people who would care to participate. An unelected and undecided board of individuals who can choose whether or not to acknowledge feedback works to a point but this thing is simply too big now.
I was introduced to edh as a casual format. Now I'm on spelltable where people scoop the second a certain card hits the table, not willing to put up with expropiate or rhystic study.
It's a far cry from "let's sit down to have fun" nowadays
Idk I think you really discount the power of fast mana/card draw, usually whoever is able to use more of their cards in a game wins, and having mana and drawing cards is what allows you to use the cards in your deck. It’s like saying my car isn’t important for my roadtrip because I’m going so I can see sights and eat food
The thing about panoptic mirror is that it isn't nearly as cumbersome as you think
Put it out, during your upkeep it triggers, respond and pay the 5 to imprint the timewarp. Only one round required, lock as early as turn 4 with just a sol ring
It's a bummer because there's a lot of cool things you can do with the mirror, but yeah.... that's a problem
If Primeval lost the ETB trigger or said basic, I'd be very down for unbanning it (literally the only titan I have ever owned, and I got it after it was banned)
Main difference between gaea's cradle and the academy is the mana rocks + treasure tokens vs the creatures - One gets wiped far more often and easily than the other.
The meta in cedh today is far more diverse than when Flash was legal. Flash Hulk meta was just sandbagging until someone tried to win. Surprise! I win in response! Thassa consult is still extremely strong, but it's far less format warping
Only thing I will add about Erayo is that it's the fourth spell played in the turn not necessarily your fourth spell so you can flip it on other players turn, it's not the strongest card but my friends play unbanned edh and someone has this deck. It's very easily flipped very consistent
I ran it in Edric as a flying creature with upside and always felt bad when it flipped almost by accident. i was perfectly happy removing it when it got banned. Multiplayer is more social, and stopping people from playing is antisocial. (Whereas when I played kitchen table duels, I purposely built a deck that could drop and flip Erayo on turn 2, followed by Arcane Laboratory on turn 3).
Dude honestly you call a ton of stuff in this video cEDH that just stright up is not cEDH. Like toutering for your wincon is someone cEDH? Playing good ramp is cEDH? Casual doesn't mean building bad decks and playing badly, it's kinda ridiculous that you dismissed a bunch of real concerns as "it's just cEDH".
The Moxes: The issue other than access is the more colors you play the more you can play, the faster your deck will be. Then add Sol Ring, others … goes to the casual vs competitive argument
They are separated because of a rule 0 concept. And buddy. Double spelling is the name of the game in commander. So 1 mana draw 3 is amazing in later turns, not on turn 1.
Erayo's essence makes it so they need 2 counterspells to stop you from combo or instantly removing anything. It wouldn't be played as a commander it would be played in things like joihra where you you just cast a bunch of 0 drop artifacts. You say just play interaction but if nobody has a chance to respond to it immediately then it's going to be nearly impossible to deal with things going forward.
One thing to remember about upheaval is that it's your turn. You can float mana and replay some of your cards so you don't have to discard. Especially if you have rocks you can put yourself in a nice board state. Kinda like EOT cyclonic rift
There is a reason why Worldpurge is the only effect like sway that was unbanned the longest. It empties mana pools.
The problem with ancestral recall is the efficiency. If your deck has blue then you should always play this card if legal. It's the blue sol ring, except it's around $5k~ each. The history and context are important actually.
The closest thing to recall we have now is remora, and it is already broken
limited resources is a justified ban due to the prevention of playing lands in a 4 player game. 10 lands, 4 players. It ruins the game.
You keep talking about the difference between “casual” and “competitive” commander but my question is. When does casual commander stop and CEDH start? For me at least casual means higher powered but not CEDH level but close to that level. When you talk about casual commander what does that mean for you?
And yes I am fine with how the format is now. Thoracle? I’m fine with and a lot of other cards. The moxen and lotus I don’t like due to how expensive they are. Even if I don’t like the reserved list it still exists so we have to work with it
I enjoy combos. I enjoy seeing the busted things that happen when magic does magic. I enjoy playing with power. I enjoy strong decks because I love seeing things work the way intend it. Perhaps it’s that philosophy that leads me to not really caring about certain things being banned.
chill video. enjoyed listening to it during a workout.
but some of the argumentation is definitely mildly insane 😂
Time Walk, possibly the second strongest card in all of Magic, is fine, because "other extra turn spells exist"? the fact that they cost, on average, triple the mana is not a factor? it would be a staple beyond a staple. aside from it's monetary cost, it would become hard to argue for ever even playing a non-blue Commander. same goes for Ancestral Recall.
I agree with you mostly, but I don't think your argument is well thought out when it comes to commanders like Leovold, who ground the format to a halt.
Like did we already forget that he became ubiquitous? You keep insisting on having and holding removal, which is true, but you still have 2 other enemies at the table and the entire purpose of Leovold is to ensure you CANT draw your answers. Kind of wild to argue for unbanning him at all.
Great video, I like hearing your position on a lot of these cards.
To respond to your comment about cards that "drag the game out", I'd disagree that a long game lets me play more Magic, often it's the opposite. Long games can be a lot of fun if everyone's involved, but if anyone is out of the game (either they've been shut down or they lost), they have to wait before playing again. Shorter games can be nice since everyone gets to participate again. "How much Magic I get to play" is rarely defined by how long games are, it's usually just based on how long I have that evening.
For both ancestral recall and balance you made the point that they wouldn't do much if played on turn 1-2 but my problem with this logic is that noone is going to play them the first turn they can. That's just not a good strategy, you want to play it the turn you get the most value from it
The other argument he said a lot was run more removal. I have a deck that I think on the high end is like 1/3 of my deck. Does he really expect me to run more? Most of my decks that I run have 10-15 most being targeted removal with a few wrath effects and that seems about average of most other decks that I have came across both casual and cedh.
Protean Hulk: get Blood Pet, Spellseeker, ThOracle. Order triggers for Spellseeker to resolve first, get Demonic Consultation. Still with ThOracle trigger on the stack, sacrifice Blood Pet to cast Demonic Consultation.
What interaction with Gifts ungiven? You get two cards into your Graveyard and can win from there in many cases as you dont need to find 4 cards, and even in casual Play you most likely not giving an opponent an option.
With Time Walk the issue is that you can use it midgame along with other, more expensive spells. It is practically a free turn.
The fact that time walk only costs two mana means that I would include it in any blue deck and you missed the point. If you play it on turn 10 you can play 8 mana worth of stuff first and then untap with all that in play. Jodah into timewalk sounds like an excellent way to go infinite early. You know what I'm going to do after playing a time walk? Play a time stretch.
And make up your mind whether a huge early threat will just be countered or exiled or are consistent "I win" cards
While in theory the power nine and big splashy early game banned cards are cool, they lead to steamroll even in the best of circumstances. They can’t really be played “non competitively” because they put you LEAGUES ahead in any situation where you start with them. They lead to incredibly unbalanced early starts that most people can’t get back from. Sure, some of those things die to removal, but when you can cast a 6 mana spell before someone plays their first land the game is going to be near impossible to come back from.
Even in my five color beast tribal fun deck, if I was to power out Morophon into an almost free set of creatures on turn 2, with mana up to protect them with the cost reduction and a sol ring, your deck that doesn’t really start until turn four isn’t going to make it all okay with one spell most of the time.
Question for you Demo: what is it about Ancestral Recall that you consider less problematic than Griselbrand? Is it that Griselbrand could be a commander, or that it can draw drastically more cards? If I were to unban one, it'd be Griselbrand because it's very specific and needs either large amounts of lifegain, or a deck built to win with a combo that you're likely to find with him (not to mention the heavy mana requirement). Ancestral Recall fits in almost every blue deck, so would only serve to homogenise them.
Hullbreacher I'm for unbanning, but it's definitely stronger than Notion Thief. Even ignoring the fact it's 1 less mana and doesn't require black in the deck, getting treasures instead of cards enables far more game-warping plays, even if that's just playing your big, scary commander early.
Time Walk - I see what you're saying that extra turn spells in commander are most effective later on when you have more resources to make more of an impact. However, that also applies to the turn you cast the extra turn spell. Having 3 more mana that turn is pretty huge and means you can set up more for the extra turn. The fact you also have the option to play this early if you have nothing better to do is just gravy on top - cycling it and untapping all your permanents is pretty good even on turn 1/2.
About flash hulk: The thing is flash hulk could win turn 0 with the dream hand, realisticly turn 1, and you could mulligan to 3 just to get the combo and win turn 2. The new thassa's oracle+consultation combo needs to be sorcery speed, requires 3 pips of mana, and can be stopped with most interaction. Also, a failed thorale combo leaves you with an empty library. This leaves place for other strategies such as stax, turbo naus and such, giving cEDH a "rock paper scissors" meta, instead of just one deck dominating everything!
The combos happen faster with alot of these cards which makes it so there's less likely for anyone to have interaction especially when they use the first few turns to set up.
Hates Emrakul bc it's an 'I win' card.....says Coalition Victory is fine as an 'I win' card.
Bruh....
well the problem with EDH and CEDH is where to draw the line ? What counts as CEDH and what was EDH ? What if a players accidentally includes a certain card which creates a fast combo and can end the game earlier than anticipated? Would that defeat the purpose of “causal”?
Yes. It would defeat the purpose of casual. What a strange question. If your deck wins at the level of CEDH, then it is not a casual deck. And that player should either consider toning down that deck, or recognize it is either highly optimized/and or CEDH. That is literal line of Casual v.s. CEDH, it has nothing to do exactly with what turn you're on specifically, but it is based on how the deck operates and how it functions in a mutliplayer setting. It's like people forget they are in a multiplayer game. Where there are other people at the table. To me the difference between Casual and CEDH is this simple thing; What Do I Personally Find Fun and How Can I Win v.s. What is fun for the table, what would be fun for others to play. The first is CEDH, the other is Casual. And often times CEDH players have this weird warped view that I find their oppressive decks, that have [exaggerating to make a point] 80 counter spells, no interaction, and no ability to stop their combo fun for the whole table. It's not. Casual means that you are making a deck, recognizing you are playing with other people, and having the discipline to see "This card will push my deck overboard and it will effect the game state in a non fun way for others." And that's the key part, Fun for the Others at the Table. Yes the point of the game is to win, but for some the point of the game is to have fun and maybe they will win.
@@WulfLovelace Agreed ^^ after all its a game and a game should be fun ^^
Most of the banned cards end up that way because they warp the whole format. Prime Time was banned because games were devolve into fights over Prime Times, to the exclusion of everything else. Otherwise, bans are left up to the people playing the game. Others shut it down, like Limited Resources. It's also incredibly strong in Stax.
No. Prime Time is a really fun role player in land based decks and is a trap in most green decks.
The "busted" things you can do are not especially impactful. You can make a bit of mana by flickering him a lot or you can just make infinity mana a dozen different ways.
You can make a big flyer, a bunch of zombies or turn all your lands into lightning bolts... and that's just cool. It's not especially strong but it is fun. Prime Time encourages playing big, stupid cards which is fantastic for casual games.
He does absolutely nothing for competitive play and isn't even really something a pub stomper would want.
Sun Titan actually goes infinite with a bunch of stuff and nobody cares. Prime Time is just a card you throw in a deck that can use him because he's not worth building around and unlike something like Consecrated Sphinx, if someone steals or copies Prime Time, in a non land focused deck, they're just ramping a bit.
@@NeoHellPoet I think you are really underestimating how powerful a double land tutor on a creature can be in EDH
@@NeoHellPoet I'm going to have to disagree. Tutoring for Urborg/Coffers is great for any deck with Golgari colors, and you throw out a big threat very quickly - or more than one. Green has Ramp, which allows for a very early Prime Time and a very early mana dump.
Add in things like Field of the Dead, or Thespian Stage + Dark Depths. Tabernacle. Glacial Chasm. Even without those, Kessig Wolf Run, Eye of Ugin, Mishra's Workshop, etc. are all good picks.
Sun Titan can go infinite with mainly sacrifice/flicker decks, which is much more limited than "any land this deck might need to be better". That's evident by the simple lack of fighting over Sun Titan that Prime Time experienced - if your deck isn't built around a recursion/flicker combo, you're not going to get a whole lot out of it in most situations. Any deck can benefit from Prime Time, even if it's just for extra ramp. Mana matters.
That being said, the meta is different, and it might not be as much of a problem now as it was when Commander started taking off. It's certainly something people can experiment with at their own tables.
I think the problem with Limited Resources isn't the land destruction. It's the second ability limiting the game to 10 lands total. If it gets played turn 1, which it very much can be and decks would be built around it, that means two players get *two* lands and two players get *three* lands. That's not even enough for most of the removal spells that could eliminate Limited Resources; and if you happen to be playing a deck with a higher mana curve you're very possibly totally locked out from playing right from turn 1. If the card was _only_ that second ability, it'd still be a fatally broken card.
If it was unbanned and someone played it on an early turn, I'd just scoop. That's an *incredibly* unfun card to play against because it's a "you don't get to play" card. Changing the second ability to "Players can only play lands if they have less than five lands under their control." would go a long way toward fixing what's terribly broken about the card.
Something I saw is that when talking about Erayo, you say it should be unbanned, because there are only 1-2 cards that can combo with it, but then go on to say that Fastbond and Channel are obvious bans because of their potential in a deck like tatyova, which is much more expensive than Erayo and those are only two cards which combo and cant be tutored in those colours?
Or, something you say a lot in this video is that only one piece of removal, or a counterspell, is needed to counter these effects. Isn't this the case for cards like Channel or Fastbond as well?
which is why I view dies to removal as a poor argument. Most people even in a casual setting don't run a card out naked unless they get value off of it that turn. People will not always have a removal/counterspell available. So what happens then. I always like so what is the floor of a card. Golos even casually will always cheat out half of its commander tax which usually doubles as a utility piece (like field of the dead).
Emrakul can be a commander just fine issue is the 99 where people use indomitable creativity and such to go into it.
The flash problem wasn’t a problem with it being the best, it was the play patterns it pushed. The plan was just to sit, wait, and win on top of someone else because you could win with two mana at instant speed. Thoracle consult is sorcery speed (without another piece).
For me the problem with Hullbreacher was not the ability to stop your opponent from drawing, it's the ability to get treasure from stopping the opponent's draw. When you play Notion thief yeah you get more cards when you cast a wheel, but do you have the mana to cast spells you drew ? Most likely not. But with Hullbreacher you get enough treasure to cast whatever you drew from your wheel which makes you really really far ahead from your opponent.
Can understand your #2, after all if you play it with wheels you're already in not-casual territory anyway.
Wheels aren't casual? I've never heard that take before. I absolutely agree about Hullbreacher, he is resource denial and resource enabler in the same card.
@@Blacklodge_Willy I meant playing the Hullbreacher + wheels combo, not wheels alone, I think these alone are fine. But I guess in a world where wheels would be banned Hullbreacher type cards would be... fine ?
Or hot take : Remove the "instead" from Hullbreacher, would still be powerful but at least not as oppresive.
@@ecureuilADN Ah right I understand. Unfortunately I remember the Hullbreacher+ wheel being played in even the most jankiest of jank decks sometimes.
@@Blacklodge_Willy I know :(
I remember when we had 2 hullbreacher on board.
Even with cedh pod, that game took 4 hours when we usually end games on turn 2-4
I think you put way too much emphasis on the difference between 'casual commander' and 'cEDH.' If we somehow separated the metas, we would just have a system where some 'casual' decks, i.e. not made for a cEDH meta, absolutely dominate. I have several of these decks- you might call them glass cannons or 'high power casual,' but I've got decks that aren't by any means cEDH, because they aren't built for that meta, but are absolutely oppressive for casual.
If we declared that cEDH is a separate format, where does the line get drawn? Should flusterstorm, which is almost exclusively seen in cEDH, be banned in 'casual' commander? What about demonic consultation? cEDH is, should, and always will be the extreme power end of the Commander meta. If you ban the power cards out of cEDH, well... you're just creating a commander subset where the 'normies' will create their own OP decks that fit the new meta, but without the cards that are too 'try-hard' to deal with them.
You might differentiate the casual vs not casual, but the one time I ran into a friend playing Prophet of Kruphix in a BUG deck they were running dredge with upkeep draw triggers and also had some loop to get a counterspell back into their hand every round. It went beyond taking a turn on everyone else's turn, it was them taking two turns every time a phase transitioned more or less and they also became a permission deck. With how many more cracked cards came out since then it just raises the cap on Prophet and it'd only get stronger as the game gets older.
Erayo is not like Gitaxias. One is a creature. The other turned into an Enchantment, which, last I checked, is not a permanent that there’s a lot of removal for.
Plus, this is blue. They have cards that untap lands and cards that cantrip. Not only is flipping Erayo with a dedicated deck easy, it also doesn’t mean the player is defenseless after.
Biorythem was the fist card that was banned when this format was being developed. The banned it for the same reason the banned coalition victory. it just cast it and end a game. any board wipe or one person is behind and you have little to no chance to do anthing about it
On Panoptic Mirror:
Cheating artifacts into play isn't hard. Artifact cost reduction in artifact decks is extremely common. Imprint can be done at instant speed. Artifact recursion, especially in artifact decks, is extremely common and plentiful.
I think there are plenty of other ways to win in an artifact deck, but Panoptic mirror has the flexibility of getting *any sorcery* to be a repeatable effect. Front of mind are really dangerous 0 CMC sorceries with suspend like Ancestral Vision, Inevitable Betrayal, Wheel of fate, and other low CMC diggers like Winds of Change.
TL;DR, Panoptic Mirror will usually come down for well less than 5, probably needs to be removed on sight, and given that it's an artifact unless you exile it there's a good chance it's coming back.
That being said, I'll unban Panoptic Mirror for you if you ban Sensei's Divining Top for me.
I could write comments on just about every card you spoke of, as we disagree on so many things. Instead, all I will suggest is checking whether your logic for how strong one card is, and whether it is consistent across all cards. It seems you have biases against certain colors and strategies versus others which make your opinions on most cards sound very analogy based rather than logic based.
1:00:30 it's not about dragging the game on. It's the fact that all the decisions you made prior and everything you played meant nothing. Not even your combats mattered because now everyone is at 7 life. Yes the counter play is to kill the person before they play it or use a counter spell, sure. That doesn't mean the card is fun.
With ancestral recall they aren't going to discard to handsome because they do it at your end step
Hot takes hotter than the sun lol. And I'm only in the beginning. Ancestral recall gets cast turn one , balance turn two and black lotus is the same like Jeweled lotus... Wtf, sorry, you have no idea what you talk about. Still love the channel - cheers
I don't have anywhere near as much removal as you apparently do - that's not really a way I like to play at least yet, granted I am still fairly new. Doesn't seem fun if everyone is just constantly countering or removing what everyone else is trying to do - leave that kind of play to cEDH, not in a casual game IMO
I *absolutely despise* annihilator though - the worst thing for me is someone casually having an eldrazi with annihilator in the 99 of their deck and not disclosing that. Guess I should ask specifically before the game now if I care so much but yeah.
As a subscriber to your channel and someone who purchased at least two cards from each of your "Cards you should put in your deck" lists, let me just say this- I would ban your pronunciation of "Emrakul" ;)
Best comment
What's the line between casual commander and cedh. Is it a dollar amount. A certain card. Mana positive rocks? You said its fine to have black lotus so its not that. If a deck has a combo its cedh? Ive built decks that accidentally had a combo( it was a bad combo) but if we are talking about mono red krenko thats a 10 mana combo so whats competitive about that. It's going to be impossible to draw a line that makes everyone happy.
They may have different names but they do share the same banned list. So you can't really ignore the cEDH portion of the argument when a card should be banned or not. It also seems your argument for a lot of these is run more removal. Ok I run a deck that is pretty much 1/3 of my deck (Tirgrid) and even then there are times when the opponents still get there stuff out. There is a reason dies to removal is a bad argument. I also think you don't realize how high the floor is on some cards even in a casual setting.
Gifts ungiven has no opponent agency if you are planning to play this even in a casual setting. The only time I would see an opponent needing to choose cards on this is if you need an answer for something and what you showed was redundant cards or ways to get a card back. All the other times would be put 2 cards in my grave that I already have a way to gain access to or unburial rites + bomb creature.
Seedborn + Thrasio is not really the same as Prophet + Beast. Sure both draw you cards but one of them increases your field presence to kill your opponents. Getting 3 extra turns of playing out creatures is a lot better than just drawing. Also Mormir Vig tended to be the commander of choice when prophet was legal. Cast a UG creature and pretty much get your next creature spell.
Rofellos at base with just playing t1 forest t2 forest this t3 forest play natures lore and a 6 drop. I never use die to removal as an excuse because they might not have it at the time this is out. And since you like Primetime being unbanned let me get 2 more forest and have 10 mana by t4. I am not really doing anything broken here. This is just the inherit power of Rofellos and this is no help from any additional mana rock or dorks.
You could easily turn 1 flip erayo in an erayo deck. Specifically because it says the fourth spell. So land, cast some zero cost artifacts or things of the sort. Your mana rocks count towards the spell counter as well. It's kinda busted
I had a really funny experience in the last 6 months pertaining to Prophet of Kruphix. Someone joined our casual game and had built his deck around this card. I remember him playing the card and I quickly pointed out it was banned. The entire rest of his deck was all stax. Stasis, Winter Orb, Static Orb, it was a miserable deck 😅
I'm one of those weirdos that think we should ban MORE cards. HOWEVER, I think the ban list should CONSTANTLY be changed and updated. I like it when metas change and adapt and I think banning could be a way to do that. Buuuuut I understand I'm the weird one, so I dunno.
Soul ring is not better than the mox cards. Costing 0 is insanely good and they give you colored mana. Sometimes you just can't use colorless mana. Also the more colors you have in your deck the more mox cards you can add.
And you saying there are other expensive cards that could be banned for accessibility is just classic whataboutism. It is no argument against the ban just for also banning the others
"Just make CEDH a seperate format" is such a bad argument because the CEDH mentality will still exist. People will still make those decks as high power as possible, it'll just be within the confines of new EDH rather than CEDH.
You keep coming back to "are you even playing casua?l" I feel like this in and of itself implies these cards that "aren't casual" should be banned
I think that the separation of edh and cedh is good idea. It’s odd to hear your stance on it because it would be done by banning cards in edh
How do you differentiate them? What exactly makes an edh and cedh deck different other than the cards they play? It is the same format.
@@defectivesickle5643 exactly and that’s why we can’t stop people from bringing those cedh decks to lgs’ and pubstomping. They are the same format.
No. Prophet of Kruphix absolutely needs to remain banned. Any card, Wilderness Reclamation included, that untaps all your lands needs to go bye bye and remain gone.
I lost all respect on your mtg opinions as soon as you said time walk should be unbanned 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
I think a card like Sway of the Stars is fine if all players are still in the game. If one of your friends got taken out before this was played and THEN the game drags out and 1 person is just twiddling their thumbs that's where the real lack of fun lies.
Should our decks be: 34~36 lands and the rest only removal?
People sleep on Biorhythm and also kind of misunderstand it. It’s craterhoof #2 in green based token decks. I think every tuned token deck would want it. It’s probably not as good as craterhoof because you drop your own life total, but it’d be another great way to turn a big board into a GG.
That said it should be unbanned. The moxen though…come on!! That’s a bad take. Sol ring and mana crypt aren’t banned so you want 5 more game-warping artifacts to be ok too? That’s just a fallacy.
I'd love to see what this guys meta looks like
Although I agree with some of the choices here even some spicy ones (ancestral recall or the mana positive rocks for example) the argument given for limited resources is just bad, just run removal isn't saying much when the color you run doesn't have it at all, black just has 2 spells in the entire game able to destroy enchantments and red has none, does that mean i need to just run removal on my rakdos deck, or that i NEED to change commander to have interaction for opresive enchantments, also take into account that the condition on lands can be made into a benefit if you add green ramp, turn 1 plains and limited resources, turn 2 land an any kind of ramp that puts a land into play and unless someone has 2 mana enchantment removal you have at least 4 lands for the rest of the game while your opponents try to search for their 2 mana mana rocks
not to mention, limited resources are 1 mana and 1 card to deploy.
there is no removal in the game that beats it.
Force of nature costs more cards even if it is mana free
patricians scorch or whatever free white spell is called has conditions
everything else is strictly 1 mana or more so will always be equal or loosing resources.
then when you disenchant limited resources for 2 mana, you and that opponent combined lost 3 mana and 2 cards, while 2 other players didnt
and bam, you got behind in resources, simple as that
I think all of these cards being banned makes a lot more sense when you realize that they’re “signpost bans” where the type of effects of cards that are banned are recommended to not be played bc those type of effects aren’t casual. A lot of the comparisons seems to be “this this that’s already in commander happens sometimes, so these cards shouldn’t be banned even when they make such combos ridiculously easy” like turn 3 with rafellos = 6 mana, decks can do that already. But that ignores the fact that that’s just a baseline 6 mana on turn three every time without other effects giving more mana. I think you ignore all the extra bs that goes on after just the baseline card effects. My friend played prophet of kruphix last year bc we didnt know it was banned and it was so oppressive coupled with green and blue card draw.
Hint hint. Some people in casual run iso scepter not as a combo piece now you're just letting them accidentally go infinite.
Congratulations on two years, liked the long video and some hot takes for sure
in cedh, any ad naus deck would run all of them because it would give them a higher chance to hit all the free mana rocks to win, so I can see why those r banned to help limit the chances
Most are hard to interact with which surprises me that Thassa's oracle isn't banned
Should be.
I disagree it's def a cedh card and can be played causal power . If someone has hate for it rule 0 your pod to desired level
Thassa's is only hard to interact with in a specific context (pact consult) and it doesn't really see play like that if at all in casual games. Why cedh doesn't have its own banned list idk
Congrats on the 2yrs. Im going to share this vid with my buddy who always seems to find banned cards to play, but never checks the banlist
The problem with biorhythm is it's potential to win the game out of nowhere when a couple of people don't have creatures or maybe they even run a deck with less than 10 creatures and plan on winning a different way. Those decks just automatically lose to biorhythm. It's just chaos in the worst way because it's not even chaos, someone comes out way ahead and someone probably loses immediately and it's no fun to lose and still have 45 minutes to an hour left before you can play your next game.
Sway of the stars is frustrating because it does reset the game and now we don't know what's going on. I've found it's normally just played to try to regain ground and not some part of a game winning combo. I would much rather play a game of commander, win or lose but see it coming, then shuffle up and play another game. I like to try to get multiple games in and play with a few different decks in one play session than play one silly long game where there's probably some frustration by the time the game is over where as playing 3 games in 4 hours vs 1 game in 4 hours multiple people probably won, everyone probably did something cool that they enjoyed. I feel longer games tend to increase the salt factor just from fatigue especially if someone had bad luck with their draws or something.
I don't know why worldfire got unbanned.
It seems like you mostly don't have much issue with cards and you'd rather have more cards be generically legal and rule 0 bans in your play group than vice versa. It just seems like it's easier to have banned cards for when you play with different people, a friend's play group, your LGS, a convention, magicfest. I would be curious to know what you consider casual EDH because I've played in 4-5 regular play groups over the years and would say I've been firmly casual the entire time but the level of casual has changed significantly over the years. I started playing level 6 decks then switched groups and had to up it to level 8.5 decks to keep up then switched groups and am currently trying to power DOWN my decks to a 7 because the rest of this current play group can't keep up. That's why we use the banned list. So there is some base starting point. So if the first time I've ever interacted with you is playing a random game of EDH at a convention we have a starting point as to what is and is not acceptable. Your kitchen table can just rule 0 whatever cards you'd like to include.
My play group Errata'ed Serra Ascendant to 10 more than starting life total. Seems much more fair
I think most things are balanced out by rule 0.
Also the bannlist is a guidance to let people know whats the format about on top of being an ensurence to the heart of commander.
Imo you can unbann everything as long as your group knows what they want to experience.
Banning might be today the wrong word, esp cause there are different lists in each group.
In my group it would be cards like farewell, cause those cards are one step too much on the powerlvl we play.
Or at all each player themselfs "shadowbanns" cards cause they dont like them, like tutors, combos, whatever.
I also saw some players playing edh only as a 1v1, so this variant also might need special rulings outside of moneyrestrictions^^.
To end this very different: use more proxies guys, your fun doesnt need to be restricted by your earnings.
I personally just like my cards being authentic
Essentially, you don't have a criteria for cards to be banned in general in the format, if a card is broken it does not really matter to you because it's Casual anyway and if they break the game they are not Casual enough for you which I think is a little ridiculous on it's own. Biorhythm is the most textbook boring card out there because all it does is either win you the game or do something that just invalidates the entire game you played if that is fine by you my hypothesis is correct and you have no criteria for the banlist.
I'm going to shock the shit out of you by saying absolutely nothing negative about anything you did here. I agreed with most all of your reasonings, and when I didn't, I thought you explained your position more than adequately and it made sense. The really awesome part of the video that I thought was perfect was having that 2nd category. Let's call it your "on the fence" category. Genius. It gave you an out for every comment you could receive about it. I would add also, that not only do casual players not play enough removal, but they also don't know when the timing is right to use it. Like swordsing something early cuz it's your turn in the rotation to take it, you've got 35 life and you swords a 4/4 flyer cuz it made it around to you. Why? Just take the 4 and move on, let the next player in line use their spell or take some damage too, save those removal spells for when someone is doing something that's going to fuck with your win con or something like that. Too many people waste removal when they really don't have to, then cry about not having it when it's truly needed. Just play smarter and cry less. Remember, your life total is a resource too... Thanks for the great content Demo. Don't let them daunt you in the comments section. Respond politely, thank them for their payment, and move on, lol 😂😆.
Sylvan primordial is just a good card it doesnt seem bannable to me at all you are already at 7 mana so it's not like the ramp is getting you way ahead and then it destroys some enchantment or artifacts most likely
I think a bane of progress is better in 99% of situations
except it can be played very early which was common back in the day and when it was played early it would hit lands. It wasn't just a spell that would get the player using it ahead it would also set back their opponents.
@@Thedeadsuns sure you can hit lands you can do that with plenty of cards
I skipped ahead to find this card in his video as I always thought this was one of the most bizarre bans in commander. I'm totally baffled this was tier 1 for him. If this got printed today no one would bat an eyelash.
There is no such thing as Cedh, there is just commander. If cards are too powerful for commander they just need to be banned, otherwise, if you are playing with any tutor or mana rocks of 2 cmc or less, you are playing cedh
the argument of "well this is causal commander so we should just allow X powerful cards" is very short sited, do you know how regular EDH very quickly becomes CEDH, you make you put better cards in to that pool. I'm not saying the cards should be banned but your point is flawed
Omg, so painful. I want to watch the test of your video, but damn, 15 minutes and 6 commercials and I had enough
What casual meta do you play in? In my neck of the woods, combo-ing out on turn 6 IS casual. Turn 3 is cEDH.
Flash was banned for more than just protean hulk it was the fact that someone pulls off the combo then someone does the same thing after them then wins first. And could be done turn 0
Biorhythm can very easily lead to draws if played after a board wipe. It seems like the rules committee really wants to avoid games ending in draws, which is probably part of why it's banned.
I hate the arguments for the moxs/lotus, it's like saying "Oh you like spicy foods, so you must only want carolina reapers with your meal"
Having a few mana positive rocks is fine there's nothing wrong with wanting some jalapeños on your pizza
Mana vault is just a colorless ritual that hurts you
Can someone enlighten me on some of the video's details ? I'm not that much of a commander player outside my group of friends (who play on shoe string "what I got in my old boosters back in the days" budget and a few tables I meet maybe twice a month in one MTG store of a big city).
I fail to understand how it's possible to argue on one hand that Tinker is a clear ban when his fetch exemple dies to removal (and artefacts are rather easy to exile for most colors) while time walk is fine according to him when it enable extra turn combos very early in the game and is way less interractable. To me it feels like he's taken a very weird exemple where the player chosing to play time walk wastes it, without considering a deck can easily grab the card back from the graveyard or copy it very early on ?
Both cards seem way too strong to me but I was wondering if I was missing something ?
Ye, he is kinda wrong and bases his arguments for unban on trusting in being non-competative