PLATO'S TIMAEUS & The Craftsman: Explained! | Ancient Greek Philosophy
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Plato's "Timaeus" is a tough text, but hopefully today we can break it down into some easy parts for you guys!
Okay, here are a few links for the Atlantis discussion if you're interested -
This one is super straight forward: ascendingpassa...
And this one explains how it links to the "Critics" discussion as well: oaks.nvg.org/at...
~Also when I start talking about the "sphere" shape of the world, Plato didn't use the word sphere but in Greece they understood the universe/world must be a circular type of structure~
The IGTV link: / cg9xif5hfeu
Check out all the facts and sources on our website: www.moaninc.co.uk
Opening Graphics Credit: Jalen Jackson
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The newest IGTV episodes are all uploaded onto our instagram every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday for this series. Catch us at the link above!!! All episodes are designed to be as simple and as fun as possible, even though we're discussing quite complex ideas! Plato & Aristotle are a difficult pair, but we're here to make sure you AT LEAST get a basic understanding :) We haven't included the analysis points for this series, however if you want to know how to philosophically counter argue any of the guys we discuss then please leave a comment below!!
You have no idea how extremely valuable this video was to me. Thanks for making it!
Thank you for watching!!! ❤️
As someone who struggles to read this is amazing, thank you !!
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At the "same, difference and beign" part, I was already a bit lost. I had te re-read it and map it out to understand.
Mainly because English is not my native language and it is not particularly written in the most basic language. This video help simplify it a lot, actually.
FROM PARIS FRANCE. THANK YOU SO MUCH YOUR EXPLANATION WAS PERFECT. I WAS LOOKING FOR A SUMMARY OR INTRODUCTION OF THE TEXT AND ALL I COULD FIND WERE ABSTRACT BS. SOOOO THANKKKS A LOT YOU ARE GREAT❤. PS : WE NEED MORE TEACHERS LIKE YOU I SWEAR.
🥹🫶🏼 thank you. I’m so glad this was helpful!
@15:27 The triangles and spheres relate to principles of mathematics and geometry. Each element can be represented by geometrical shapes and Plato was highly influenced by Pythagoras. There are countless articles available online explaining Timaeus and its' references to math and geometry and why math and geometry are significant part of Plato's metaphysics.
YAYYYYYYYYYY!!!! A woman discussing philosophy! It's just nice to see not a dude in a sea of dudes on this content topic. :) - Sincerely, a fellow lady thinker.
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Please do one of the De Anima of Aristotle. I'm a philosophy student who are going to do his thesis about it, so I wanna your opinions, points of view and interpretations. Love from Mexico!!
Btw you're so smooth with the explanations! I fucking love it. Definitely a subscriber here. Keep up the good work :) Μιχαῆλ Ἄγγελος
Absolutely! I’ll slot the new Aristotle video for you and anyone else who needs it in the timetable :) I’m more than happy to help with your studies and make it slightly more fun!!! Thank you so much for watching and subscribing 😭
Did you just ramble on about the soul becoming a being as it passes through a blockheaded body on its way to the Light? Nice presentation! 💫
“Ramble” is the perfect word for what I do 😂😆
Purchased Timaeus. Do you know who wrote the Introduction and Analysis? Merci!
thin? wt... this is so thick
How does Plato explain suffering and natural disasters, if the universe is intelligently complete and the Demiurge is inherently good.
The Craftsman to me is Entropy through the union of time and matter.
najslabaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
When he talks about the four elements… this is all a map of YOUR soul & the UNIVERSE. Not a physical one, a psychological one.
The "Craftsman" is essentially God in his creative power, and the "world of forms" are those ideas of life ideated within the mind of God. This would mean that the Craftsman's creations are wholly spiritual (beginning within the mind). Theses ideas then manifest themselves within the etheric substance of the universe. More simply put, The Craftsman created " that which produced the suns"(idea) rather than the sun itself(manifestation). I find it is easier to breakdown the hidden wisdom behind these works when you understand the origin of their inspiration. Nevertheless great work. Cheers!
Thank you! ❤️
You make me smile! I can literally listen to you all day! 😍 thank you for making this read less intimidating!
🥺thank you for stopping by omg❤️
Great job!!
I actual hypothesize Timaeus was an actual historical person from Locri Italy. He was an amazing astronomer. One of the reasons why I think this to be true, is why would Plato's basic ideas fluctuate over different dialogues so much? Scholars say it's because his ideas changed over time. In his early dialogues his thoughts were more like Socrates and later he developed his own philosophy.
But could it be that Timaeus was an actual person who actually gave this discourse which was recorded down? Look at the breadth of this discourse, it's an amazing piece of work. Different from most of the dialogues as it is a monologue. Not only that but it includes the account of Atlantis by Critias who was by the way an (actual historical figure).
Hermocrates was also there and his portion of the dialogue is missing, if that dialogue ever gets discovered it would be an amazing chance to learn more about the fate of Atlantis.
I have more on my theory that Plato never wrote these dialogues rather he was a keeper of the discourses of Socrates his master on my channel. I know it's a radical theory.
It is a tough text to read though, but I found this audio version by the Planksip UA-cam channel. It's is the best I have heard.
ua-cam.com/video/CiNVrZHL5Ys/v-deo.htmlsi=vefWmaZy9acjerq3
It is all allegorical. "Earth" represents real knowledge, while "fire" can be either creative (upward movement) or destructive (downward movement) and it represents "interpretation" into or out of allegory. "Water" represents the writings that contain the allegory, while "air" represents the false literal meanings of the allegory. The "soul" is a metaphor for a character's "history" and if this history is presented in the literal meaning of the allegory, then the character has obtained "eternal life", however, those buried in the underworld of hidden meanings can also be "raised from the dead" if someone knows how to correctly interpret the allegory.
Everything Plato wrote was allegoric in nature. In Plato's Cratylus Plato indicates that there is a "correctness" to names and names can be "disguised" by altering "a letter or two". Then Plato admits that the "god" Pluto was "...the perfect and accomplished Sophist..." How could Plato make these statements without seeing that he had identified himself as a "Sophist". In case you don't see it, I will explain it; if Plato is a disguised form of Pluto, and Pluto is a Sophist, then Plato is a Sophist. (If A=B and B=C, then A=C) Plato also confirms his Sophist identity by appearing as the "Stranger" in his Sophist dialogue.
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Warren I feel like you’re much more qualified to run this channel than I am 😂
Wow, that's an explanation I hadn't heard before. I'm curious about what you think of the interpretation of the World of Ideas in Plato. Recently I heard about Gadamer's theory that Plato didn't actually postulated an ontologically different world, but a logical one. Kinda like Aristotle and the problem of the universals, that every individual of a certain species represented totally and fully the universal of that species, this could be humankind for instance.
@@miguelhermar Plato's Allegory of the Cave summarizes much of my view. We have been fed a false reality via allegory and the people that constructed this "cave" were identified by Plato as Sophists. In Plato's Protagoras, Protagoras describes his fellow Sophists this way:
"Now the art of the Sophist is, as I believe, of great antiquity; but in ancient times those who practiced it, fearing this odium, veiled and disguised themselves under various names, some under that of poets, as Homer, Hesiod, and Simonides, some, of hierophants and prophets, as Orpheus and Musaeus, and some, as I observe, even under the name of gymnastic-masters, like Iccus of Tarentum, or the more recently celebrated Herodicus, now of Selymbria and formerly of Megara, who is a first-rate Sophist. Your own Agathocles pretended to be a musician, but was really an eminent Sophist; also Pythocleides the Cean; and there were many others; and all of them, as I was saying, adopted these arts as veils or disguises because they were afraid of the odium which they would incur."
Note that no field of knowledge appears immune to Sophist influence. As for Protagoras, who appeared to be a Sophist without a veil, in Plato's Theaetetus Socrates is made to remark:
“In the name of the Graces, what an almighty wise man Protagoras must have been! He spoke these things in a parable to the common herd, like you and me, but told the truth, his Truth, in secret to his own disciples.”
From this is should be obvious that Sophists employ allegory and parable to mask their true meanings and this then implicates even Christianity as a Sophist "veil":
"When he (Jesus) was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'" (Gospel of Mark 4:10-12)
Even the modern "Free Masons" appear to fit into the Sophist mold. Modern definitions of "Sophism" completely ignore the description provided by Protagoras and instead simply say that Sophists were known for "fallacious" or "specious" arguments, but this is true only on a literal level. Sophist statements appear fallacious only because they are not speaking literally.
How deep and how far did this Sophist influence spread? In the book "A History of God" the author Karen Armstrong summarizes the 12th Century Persian philosopher Suhrawardi's views of mysticism and philosophy this way:
“He (Suhrawardi) claimed that all sages of the ancient world had preached a single doctrine. Originally it had been revealed to Hermes (whom Suhrawardi identified with the prophet known as Idris in the Koran or Enoch in the Bible); in the Greek world it had been transmitted through Plato and Pythagoras and in the Middle East through the Zoroastrian Magi. Since Aristotle, however, it had been obscured by a more narrowly intellectual and cerebral philosophy, but it had been secretly passed from one sage to another until it had finally reached Suhrawardi himself via al‐Bistami and al‐Hallaj.”
Because it is forbidden to actually write down a key to this allegoric code, a writer of allegory has limited means to determine the meaning of an unfamiliar metaphor. In many cases metaphors were based on their phonetic similarity with the word they were replacing (see Cratylus), but phonetic similarities are often lost when a document is translated into a different language, and thus this method had obvious limitations. Aristotelian logic then is often the only way a Sophist can determine the meaning of a metaphor and the ability to employ this logic is greatly enhanced if all the allegory is also placed in the same cultural and linguistic context and thus the shift linked to Aristotle in the above quote can also linked to the "Hellenization" of the ancient world.
Philo of Alexandria cites Timaeus in his On Creation with a monotheistic spin in the first century. Many ancient Jews saw Timaeus' statement that the Creation is "good" as having borrowed from the Creation account in Genesis 1 were the Creator stays that his Creation is "good".
Christians actually linked Plato’s The Good to God rather than the Demiurge. Since The Good is the transcendent ineffable Cause, as opposed to the Demiurge.
This is especially true in the Philosophy of Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch, and Athenagoras of Athens. And I think most explicitly shown in the writings of Pseudo-Dionysius, although he was more of a Neoplatonist.
Timaeus had a great influence on Neoplatonists, not because of its doctrine of the Demiurge, but more so due to the cosmology (of the Universal Intellect and the Universal Soul). This was the doctrines developed by Christians and Platonists in the 2nd to 3rd centuries.
I’d recommend the lectures of Arthur F. Holmes on Middle Platonism, Neoplatonism, and the Church Fathers for this parallel development of the Platonist and Christian theology: ua-cam.com/video/Sic5OdUIkgk/v-deo.html and ua-cam.com/video/nA5_VgJAceU/v-deo.html
It was actually the Gnostics who identified the Demiurge with God, which was rebutted at length in the writings of Irenaeus of Lyons and Hippolytus of Rome.
looks like a great trifold logical gate, might be better than a binary logic gate.
Being/Spirit.
Sameness/Mind.
Difference/Body.
The Holy Trinity
Father
Spirit
Mother...
All becomes One!
One Universal Mind.
Plato's tripart soul.
Instincts. Ego. Higher Self.
Gut. Heart. Head.
Me, my Self and I
Mind. Body, Spirit
Father. Mother. Spirit.
Being.Difference.
Sameness.
🧠👁☀️🔼
You explained it very well, I feel that if I had paid attention properly I would understand it. Feels like school times.
Good Job on creating this content on such complex texts. I have never understood how people automatically presume that Christians "stole" or "adopted" things from the philosophers, when even the last book of the Old Testament, Malachi was scribed before Timaeus was penned. The book of Romans in the New Testament, Paul spent time writing this very complex book b/c Paul was not adopting things from the greek philosophers, was trying to get others to see that it was senseless and furthermore, was trying to open the understanding of the philosopher and their followers against vain arguments and pseudo science (is what the New Testament called it). This is historical evidence that Jesus followers did not, nor do they now adopt ideas from philosophers. IF something is true, more than 1 place will have reference to it, like the Flood narrative. Many cultures have a version of it, not because they are stealing, but because there is truth to the story! The soul was mentioned back in Genesis and traces of the idea and or its dimensions can be seen here & there in the Old Testament. There is a philosophy to the Bible by Itself, which It predates greek philosophy. This philosophy of Scripture, much of which was passed on orally for millennia before the Torah was hand written - and even the hand written Torah, as late as it was - predates many of the philosophers we love to ascribe all the credit of content creator or original status toward. I like Plato & Aristotle's writings, I think they were on to somethings, however, I think their philosophies were powerless to reveal the greater truths behind even what they described and tried to philosophize & pass on. For example, the allegory of the caves. Plato was on to something here, but it wasn't until Jesus arrived that we could get the fullness of what really happens between realms and how they relate; also how the "seen" is mysterious and a form of something greater that is unseen..and realty that bleeds through which allows us to see that something is there and there is more than the physical or the formalities. Another example, Atlantis, which we can't understand to the right or the left about how such city could be; but the predated Old Testament talked about the Pre-Flood world, which is what Atlantis speaks about. I don't think they were "stealing" from each other or needing to insert ideas, especially not into The Scriptures. That's not what Jesus, Paul - or any of the Disciples have done.
I think somehow they had ideas that were tip-toeing around the full truth, but in essence, they fell short in one way or another. But I think Philosophers & modern science either have borrowed or somehow come to similar ideas, not because anyone is stealing, but because the truth will be recognized on one level or another across barriers, if it's true. It might not be the full truth, but if it's true, then more than one person should be able to see trinkets. I have been familiar with Plato's works since the early 2000s and the argument is still the same amongst secular folks, that those who believe the Bible (I didn't say religion either, But what The BIBLE says) had to have stolen everything from everyone else.....as if the Old Testament doesn't predate much of the in question artifacts from other religions, archeology and of course philosophy. No one can prove remotely that Christinas borrowed anything, yet it's asserted like there is concreteness to it. And there just isn't though. I enjoyed the facts of the review, Thank you!
Never seen your channel before. Right off the bat, you sounded like an intelligent person.
Just leaving that here for fun, I guess.
Thanks a lot. Your video was very helpfull, I'm a Brazilian literature student and I'm making a parallel between Plato's Timaeus and Avalovara (a Brazilian novel). My objective is to understand the perspective of time present on the novel. I know that the author read Timaeus and probably applied the theory to the plot. I'm reading right now and I'm having a lot problems to understant and your video was very helpful, really took the ideas and put in the right places. (I was so lost lol).
SO GLAD this helped you! Thank you so much for watching the video - it means the world!!! Good luck with your studies ❤️❤️
Is Plato's "being vs becoming" a way of reconciling Parmenides with Heraclitus?
Thank you so much for this video! I'm currently working on my paper for Ancient Philosophy and this was extremely helpful in giving me a start on how to think about Timaeus. Excellent work!
So so happy this helped you jump into your paper!!!!
I would love to read your paper
Another important point was the relation between the physical world, the world of forms and time. Plato wrote that the Demiurge created the physical world as a moving image of eternity, and that time is the movement.
Thank you for this explanation! LOL I am making a video where its important that anyone following know a bit about the creation Timaeus describes. I am simply going to say a few words, and refer them to your video!
Thanks for watching!!
Great work, it’s clear you’re very well studied on this subject.
Thanks 🤓
Great video. When you consider that most 3d game graphics are made of rendered triangles... Makes you think...
Thank you!
I came here to better understand Khora. What is this about.
this was a really helpful video! just thought i would add that it would be helpful to add sort of citations? like (at point 22d in the text) just as it would help to follow the movement through the text
First: thank you so much for watching the video - we’re thrilled it helped you!
Second: absolutely! Would you prefer them in the description, on our website, or in the actual video? (You can say all 3 if that would be the most helpful!)
Really well done!
Thank you ☺️
this text is so confusing haha
With you on that one! 😂 Plato never makes it easy, but with a little elbow grease over time his writing gets a tad more clear 😊
single not singular.
Hey, thanks for the vid. My favorite part is this(paraphrased): "He(Demiurgos) was good. He did not neglect anything(and anyone). He wanted everything(and everyone) to be like himself". So he wanted everything to be good(like himself, as in the first sentence) and so every-thing/one has it it's own goodness. Have a good day.
Thanks for watching and for taking the time to leave a comment to share your thoughts!! ❤️
You did a fantastic job! You truly did! This dialogue really is difficult to comprehend much less explain!
Thank you!
Good stuff. Great help in explaining the big ideas, now I can go back to watching the lecture and have a clue what the professor was talking about!
So glad this helped! 🙂
you just saved my life with this vid!!!!
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two words: thank you
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omg omg omg i NEED a part 2 with more details.
Omg you’re amazing. Love this! 😂🤩
❤️❤️❤️
Hey Erica, love your humor in these videos lol
would you be doing anything on protagoras meno or dante? love those texts too
Hi!!! Thank you so much!!! If you’re interested in watching videos on Protagoras & Meno, we can DEFINITELY start planning those for the future🤓 Always happy to produce content people wanna see!
I thought God had no control of necessity, not intelligence as you said (I got this from Bertrand Russell). Could you please clarify? Basically, I'm trying to understand how Plato goes around the problem of evil.
Hi! This video is specific to Plato’s “Timaeus” rather than a general discussion of belief. Plato also does not state explicitly that the “craftsman” is any version of “god”, so please do not get the two confused within an ancient context! ❤️
@@MoAnInc oh I am definitely not confusing both, I don't think the term should be appropriated by any religion, so just using God as a synonym for the craftsman.
Also, couldn't we derive from Timaeus the implications of what Plato would think of the problem of evil? (e.g. if the creator has no control of necessity, then that explains why "evil" exists, unlike with Christianity and other religions)
Thanks for replying! Love the tone of the videos, easy to understand, keep it up!
Thx a lot for posting!
👁👁
You’re very welcome ☺️
Beautiful, beautiful commentary
Thank you!
What a great work of you! I am so thankful.
Thank you for taking time to watch this! ❤️