The Apple IIGS shined with games like Kings Quest II-IV, Police Quest, Defender of the Crown and King of Chicago. Pirates was also very good on that system
The Apple IIgs is most likely 100% compatible to software that runs on an enhanced //e. The graphics is actually pretty close to the Atari ST in aesthetics with some added capabilities like 16 line-addressable colormaps on the IIgs vs. 1 for the whole image on the ST. The ST had to use CPU-cycles to swap out the color map to allow more than 16 colors in one picture while the IIgs could do 256 colors per picture without CPU intervention. The funny thing is that the IIgs could have supported 640x400/interlaced graphics out of the box like was done on the Video Overlay Card (supported by all IIgs monitors). But Apple limited the IIgs implementation of "SHR"-graphics to a single graphics page, not even supporting double buffering. The VOC has the same chips as the IIgs but offers double buffering and interlaced modes (640x400i, 320x400i) by interweaving the two graphics pages. The tale of the IIgs is riddled with missed opportunities, many of which were decided on by (upper) management to prevent a collision of interests between the Apple II and Macintosh lines. CPU-speeds of up to 7 MHz, graphics with interlaced 400-line modes and sound with built-in stereo were all cut down to fit into the low-cost/education market and prevent overlap with the Macintosh. The IIgs could have been a killer system but corporate decisions made it a cripple.
The GS was popular back then when I was a kid in that it was an aspirational dream machine for all Apple IIe and Apple IIc owners. It didn’t sell well because it was a bit too expensive and because a new thing called the Macintosh cannibalized some of its sales. Also, Apple IIe owners could opt for a more affordable expansion card/kit that gave the Apple IIe nearly all of the GS capabilities, further cannibalizing sales from the GS.
Also Apple didn't do much to help sell it. Apple Works (that made the IIe and IIc attractive to home/small office users in the later half of the 80s) for the GS was late and development of later versions fizzled out with the expectations being GS users just use the IIe version and Apple had influence over Claris.
This was the evolution of the Apple II but Apple Computers killed them to favor the Macintosh (which Steve Jobs promised and envisioned for the future of Apple) so ultimately killing the Apple II line all together and leading to the demise of Apple Computers as a company since the Macintosh was ultimately a mass market failure and Apple did not have any other mass products available. But also the IIGS as you said was aspirational (kind of the beta version of what the Apple II future would have become) and when it came to benchmark reality the Commodore Amiga and the Atari ST blew it away as they were more gaming efficient and more graphics hw oriented, plus they were also cheaper.
The Apple IIGS actually outsold all other Apple products during its introduction and right through to 1988. Even so, Apple neglected it, gave it little to no promotion, discouraged third developers from supporting it, and refused to advance its design. They also left users unsupported for the most part. It's really incredible that a company with such a successful and profitable device on their hands, would go out of their way to try and kill it. They certainly didn't help it in that it was priced so high, and they keep that price high right to the end.
Other factors - in the mid to late 80s one could get C compilers that generated decent code for the MC68000 and the Intel 80286 and 80386. But the 6502 family of chips don't have reasonable support for high level languages. Attempted high level language compilers that produced native code did awful hacky tricks to work around the deficiencies of the CPU architecture. In the late 70s and early 80s successful commercial software was written in assembly language but in the mid 80s onward, companies were shifting to writing in C. The Mac had good compilers but this IIgs, well, it's 16-bit CPU addressed greater memory access but didn't do anything to better support high level languages. Writing in assembly language had by then become frowned on due to poorer economics equation. Companies wanted to more readily port titles to multiple platforms. etc. And writing large, complex programs was easier to do in C vs assembly language. Owning a IIgs was pretty much a ghetto in respect to software being written specifically to that computer. If wanted to play games, then game consoles were more logical alternative.
This is a remarkably well done video considering it comes from somebody without an Apple IIgs background. I think the conclusions are very sound. I do have (a lot) of nostalgia for the IIgs, but mine sits on the shelf as a reminder and a really beautiful piece of history. IMO the design is underrated. Couple notes. Correct, this is not the matching IIgs keyboard. The IIgs keyboard was a great keyboard, a perfect visual match, and is really needed to complete the IIgs look and feel. It also has the power key, but on the IIgs it is used for reset only. Also correct that the Rom 3 was the most desirable. There may be a few pieces of very early software it can’t run, but it has additional benefits, such as the ability to use built in slot-mapped hardware and a card installed in the mapped slot at the same time. Also, it is noticeably faster when running GS/OS because more of the OS is in ROM, so the CPU isn’t slowed down by DRAM refresh while executing that code. The exclusive game you were struggling to identify was Task Force. It’s good, but not a showpiece. As far as games, Rastan really was the IIgs’s standout. I’ve heard people say it was the best home port, and I have a hard time disagreeing. Thanks for the video.
Thank you for the comment. I'll have to keep an eye out for the matching keyboard. Yeah, that's the exclusive I couldn't remember. despite not really being an "Apple guy" I really like the IIGS, I just wish I had more reason to use it. I've been comparing Bards Tale with the Amiga version and I was almost sold on just playing through on the IIGS but I was bummed when I found out BT III didn't get a GS release. I just wish there were more exclusives or definitive versions on the system. I may have to try out Rastan.
@@AncientElectronicsFact: Super Famicom/Super Nintendo is actually literally IIGS System on a Chip hardware!!!! The same with SEGA Mega Drive/Genesis being Stronger Amiga 500 OTS components.
Bard's Tale needs the Inventory and Character file on the character disk. There is a basic program called make.player on the disk that you are suppose to run in Basic on the system disk (so you'd boot from system floppy, run Basic, swap to your game disk, type run make.player, swap to a formatted disk and it would put the files on the disk). These file could be on your game disk already (they are on the disk image I have) and you can copy them over yourself without having to use their Basic program. I have no idea why they didn't just create the files at the game menu like they did with Bard's Tale 2 for the GS (and yes you'd have to have read the getting started section of the game manual to figure this out).
There's a good reason why the GS continues the Apple II name. In addition to the expandability, it retained Woz' philosophy of being expandable. Compare with Jobs' Mac which was sealed up. That was the greatest divergence in the Jobs/Woz philosophy. Woz was always pushing for open source and Jobs wanted to sell more machines. It's why Woz was and is the greatest of the two. Modern Apple is very much a Jobs creation.
My Older Cuz's had an OG Apple ][, I loved going to their house to play that thing. we had Apple ][, then 2e while I was growing up. I've never seen a GS in person, would love to get one though as an Ultimate Apple ][ Machine
Quick note: The AppleColor RGB is *not* compatible with the Apple IIc or Apple IIc Plus. The connector may fit, but it will not work on those machines (which do not have an RGB port, but rather a "Video Expansion Port", which only supported an RF-modular or specialized flat-panel LCD screen from the 80's). And the IIGS isn't picky about displays per say, it just requires a display that support 15 KHz (NTSC frequency) and a correctly wired cable or adapter. Most Amiga and Atari ST displays will work just fine, so will some VGA monitors like the NEC Multisync 3D or Sony CPD-1302. I will say the AppleColor RGB is the best match for the machine, it has incredible color saturation and nice deep blacks that make its native graphics just pop! Also its .38mm dotpitch is what helps blend and dither the colors in the 640 mode (such as the Finder desktop) to appear like solid colors. On a better dot pitch screen, the dithering becomes more apparent. BTW, does your IIGS monitor get blurry as it warms up, or get sharper?
It tends to get a little sharper as it warms up. Its also a tad on the dim side overall. Probably going to try a recap eventually and see if that helps. I don't recall saying or implying the AppleColor RGB was compatible with the Apple II in any form, if I did I certainly misspoke
Awesome job,. The "power button" you mention is the reset key. While you're right this isn't the stock keyboard, the actual stock keyboard has the exact same key layout except the the stock keyboard had a reset button that was more "rectangle" without the slight curve you see on this Mac Iicx-era ADB keyboard you have here.
@JonRowlison - Not quite the same layout, the Apple Keyboard II has the Control and Caps-lock keys positions swapped, and very bizarrely, the 'Esc' key placed out of the way to the right of the spacebar (rather than at the top-left corner). That made doing the 3-finger salute for accessing the Control Panel very trickery. It's also a cheap membrane keyboard, it doesn't use mechanical ALP switches like the original IIGS keyboard. There's also a border around the keys, it's not nearly as sleek as the official IIGS keyboard. Oh, and did I mention typing on that Mac keyboard feels like crap? I've always preferred mechanical switches, but the Keyboard II was exceptionally bad. I don't regret giving mine away.
13:30 When the monitor shows blurring, it suffers from Altersschwäche (weakness in old age). Possibly exchange capacitors? I had this with this monitor as well in the past, but now replaced with an IIGS-to-VGA-adaptor: "Apple IIGS VGA adapter by Manila Gear" studio.ua-cam.com/users/videoqUYHgiIQ8zA/edit
Ive been waiting on a few things for my GS before I started any video on it. It needs restored and a...well a better usb to serial to run ADTpro. NONE of my iigs floppy disks are working lol so i cant boot gsos
Many of my actual Apple floppies do not work either but the floppy Emu is invaluable. I don't really like floppy emulators when they are internal like the GOTEK, It looks horrible and breaks the aesthetics IMO but as an external device, I have no issues with them. I probably won't do too much more to mine, get a battery holder and maybe a 4MB RAM card from Reactivemicro and I should be set.
@@AncientElectronics I've been needing a floppy emu. Got a few apples it would work with. Mainly since with the transwarp and the full original ram upgrade it be a powerful ( in regards to the era) apple to try some games and software with. Unfortunately adtpro has been refusing to load up correctly, so I can't make os floppies.
Hmmm, that's not what I read when I was researching the issue but I did just read this "The IIgs can use a Duodisk without problems if the analog card is the correct revision." so maybe I was reading about a machine that had a controller card of the incorrect revision.
Great machine, mostly suppressed by the Apple itself. They wanted to make sure that it doesnt jeopardize the rise of mac. Especially when they saw how powerful 65c816 actually is, seriously challenging mac even at abysmal clock of 2.8Mhz.
In terms of what is accomplished in one clock cycle, the 65xxx series is more efficient than the 68000. Roughly speaking, the 65C816 at 2.8 MHz CPU is comparable to a 8 MHz 68000. A IIGS running at 8 MHz is much more zippy and responsive than a Macintosh Plus or SE running at the same speed, and really flies once you hit 12-15 MHz. There were certainly other bottlenecks in the IIGS besides its CPU speed, such as its 1 MHz I/O bus and video, but it became obvious Apple hobbled the machine by refusing to increase its speed even in the slightest for the 6 years it was on the market. Even its 8-bit younger brother, the 4 MHz Apple IIc Plus, was faster than the Apple IIGS!
I think this video is good, but Im not sure. I mean maybe I have that wrong, I cant really remember. It has good sound or maybe not. Really Im just not sure of anything. LOL
I miss watching videos on UA-cam by actual people and not over-produced scripted content, subscribed!
The Apple IIGS shined with games like Kings Quest II-IV, Police Quest, Defender of the Crown and King of Chicago. Pirates was also very good on that system
Absolutely.
The Apple IIgs is most likely 100% compatible to software that runs on an enhanced //e.
The graphics is actually pretty close to the Atari ST in aesthetics with some added capabilities like 16 line-addressable colormaps on the IIgs vs. 1 for the whole image on the ST. The ST had to use CPU-cycles to swap out the color map to allow more than 16 colors in one picture while the IIgs could do 256 colors per picture without CPU intervention. The funny thing is that the IIgs could have supported 640x400/interlaced graphics out of the box like was done on the Video Overlay Card (supported by all IIgs monitors). But Apple limited the IIgs implementation of "SHR"-graphics to a single graphics page, not even supporting double buffering. The VOC has the same chips as the IIgs but offers double buffering and interlaced modes (640x400i, 320x400i) by interweaving the two graphics pages. The tale of the IIgs is riddled with missed opportunities, many of which were decided on by (upper) management to prevent a collision of interests between the Apple II and Macintosh lines. CPU-speeds of up to 7 MHz, graphics with interlaced 400-line modes and sound with built-in stereo were all cut down to fit into the low-cost/education market and prevent overlap with the Macintosh. The IIgs could have been a killer system but corporate decisions made it a cripple.
at least the aesthetics of the relatively narrow IIgs case got carried over into the Mac line
The GS was popular back then when I was a kid in that it was an aspirational dream machine for all Apple IIe and Apple IIc owners. It didn’t sell well because it was a bit too expensive and because a new thing called the Macintosh cannibalized some of its sales. Also, Apple IIe owners could opt for a more affordable expansion card/kit that gave the Apple IIe nearly all of the GS capabilities, further cannibalizing sales from the GS.
Also Apple didn't do much to help sell it. Apple Works (that made the IIe and IIc attractive to home/small office users in the later half of the 80s) for the GS was late and development of later versions fizzled out with the expectations being GS users just use the IIe version and Apple had influence over Claris.
This was the evolution of the Apple II but Apple Computers killed them to favor the Macintosh (which Steve Jobs promised and envisioned for the future of Apple) so ultimately killing the Apple II line all together and leading to the demise of Apple Computers as a company since the Macintosh was ultimately a mass market failure and Apple did not have any other mass products available. But also the IIGS as you said was aspirational (kind of the beta version of what the Apple II future would have become) and when it came to benchmark reality the Commodore Amiga and the Atari ST blew it away as they were more gaming efficient and more graphics hw oriented, plus they were also cheaper.
The Apple IIGS actually outsold all other Apple products during its introduction and right through to 1988. Even so, Apple neglected it, gave it little to no promotion, discouraged third developers from supporting it, and refused to advance its design. They also left users unsupported for the most part. It's really incredible that a company with such a successful and profitable device on their hands, would go out of their way to try and kill it. They certainly didn't help it in that it was priced so high, and they keep that price high right to the end.
Other factors - in the mid to late 80s one could get C compilers that generated decent code for the MC68000 and the Intel 80286 and 80386. But the 6502 family of chips don't have reasonable support for high level languages. Attempted high level language compilers that produced native code did awful hacky tricks to work around the deficiencies of the CPU architecture.
In the late 70s and early 80s successful commercial software was written in assembly language but in the mid 80s onward, companies were shifting to writing in C.
The Mac had good compilers but this IIgs, well, it's 16-bit CPU addressed greater memory access but didn't do anything to better support high level languages.
Writing in assembly language had by then become frowned on due to poorer economics equation. Companies wanted to more readily port titles to multiple platforms. etc. And writing large, complex programs was easier to do in C vs assembly language.
Owning a IIgs was pretty much a ghetto in respect to software being written specifically to that computer. If wanted to play games, then game consoles were more logical alternative.
This is a remarkably well done video considering it comes from somebody without an Apple IIgs background. I think the conclusions are very sound. I do have (a lot) of nostalgia for the IIgs, but mine sits on the shelf as a reminder and a really beautiful piece of history. IMO the design is underrated.
Couple notes.
Correct, this is not the matching IIgs keyboard. The IIgs keyboard was a great keyboard, a perfect visual match, and is really needed to complete the IIgs look and feel. It also has the power key, but on the IIgs it is used for reset only.
Also correct that the Rom 3 was the most desirable. There may be a few pieces of very early software it can’t run, but it has additional benefits, such as the ability to use built in slot-mapped hardware and a card installed in the mapped slot at the same time. Also, it is noticeably faster when running GS/OS because more of the OS is in ROM, so the CPU isn’t slowed down by DRAM refresh while executing that code.
The exclusive game you were struggling to identify was Task Force. It’s good, but not a showpiece. As far as games, Rastan really was the IIgs’s standout. I’ve heard people say it was the best home port, and I have a hard time disagreeing.
Thanks for the video.
Thank you for the comment. I'll have to keep an eye out for the matching keyboard.
Yeah, that's the exclusive I couldn't remember. despite not really being an "Apple guy" I really like the IIGS, I just wish I had more reason to use it. I've been comparing Bards Tale with the Amiga version and I was almost sold on just playing through on the IIGS but I was bummed when I found out BT III didn't get a GS release. I just wish there were more exclusives or definitive versions on the system. I may have to try out Rastan.
@@AncientElectronicsFact: Super Famicom/Super Nintendo is actually literally IIGS System on a Chip hardware!!!!
The same with SEGA Mega Drive/Genesis being Stronger Amiga 500 OTS components.
Bard's Tale needs the Inventory and Character file on the character disk. There is a basic program called make.player on the disk that you are suppose to run in Basic on the system disk (so you'd boot from system floppy, run Basic, swap to your game disk, type run make.player, swap to a formatted disk and it would put the files on the disk). These file could be on your game disk already (they are on the disk image I have) and you can copy them over yourself without having to use their Basic program. I have no idea why they didn't just create the files at the game menu like they did with Bard's Tale 2 for the GS (and yes you'd have to have read the getting started section of the game manual to figure this out).
Thank you for explaining this
There's a good reason why the GS continues the Apple II name. In addition to the expandability, it retained Woz' philosophy of being expandable. Compare with Jobs' Mac which was sealed up. That was the greatest divergence in the Jobs/Woz philosophy. Woz was always pushing for open source and Jobs wanted to sell more machines. It's why Woz was and is the greatest of the two. Modern Apple is very much a Jobs creation.
My Older Cuz's had an OG Apple ][, I loved going to their house to play that thing.
we had Apple ][, then 2e while I was growing up. I've never seen a GS in person, would love to get one though as an Ultimate Apple ][ Machine
Zany Golf was maybe the funnest game on IIGS
Quick note: The AppleColor RGB is *not* compatible with the Apple IIc or Apple IIc Plus. The connector may fit, but it will not work on those machines (which do not have an RGB port, but rather a "Video Expansion Port", which only supported an RF-modular or specialized flat-panel LCD screen from the 80's). And the IIGS isn't picky about displays per say, it just requires a display that support 15 KHz (NTSC frequency) and a correctly wired cable or adapter. Most Amiga and Atari ST displays will work just fine, so will some VGA monitors like the NEC Multisync 3D or Sony CPD-1302. I will say the AppleColor RGB is the best match for the machine, it has incredible color saturation and nice deep blacks that make its native graphics just pop! Also its .38mm dotpitch is what helps blend and dither the colors in the 640 mode (such as the Finder desktop) to appear like solid colors. On a better dot pitch screen, the dithering becomes more apparent. BTW, does your IIGS monitor get blurry as it warms up, or get sharper?
It tends to get a little sharper as it warms up. Its also a tad on the dim side overall. Probably going to try a recap eventually and see if that helps.
I don't recall saying or implying the AppleColor RGB was compatible with the Apple II in any form, if I did I certainly misspoke
Awesome job,. The "power button" you mention is the reset key. While you're right this isn't the stock keyboard, the actual stock keyboard has the exact same key layout except the the stock keyboard had a reset button that was more "rectangle" without the slight curve you see on this Mac Iicx-era ADB keyboard you have here.
@JonRowlison - Not quite the same layout, the Apple Keyboard II has the Control and Caps-lock keys positions swapped, and very bizarrely, the 'Esc' key placed out of the way to the right of the spacebar (rather than at the top-left corner). That made doing the 3-finger salute for accessing the Control Panel very trickery. It's also a cheap membrane keyboard, it doesn't use mechanical ALP switches like the original IIGS keyboard. There's also a border around the keys, it's not nearly as sleek as the official IIGS keyboard. Oh, and did I mention typing on that Mac keyboard feels like crap? I've always preferred mechanical switches, but the Keyboard II was exceptionally bad. I don't regret giving mine away.
Lovely machine
Man I have a IIgs in my deep storage and now I feel like uncrating it!
Find it, and pull the battery out of it. Those things can leak and cause problems.
@@cathrynm Probably too late now, been there for years...
@@8BitNaptime You never know. I pulled out my father's old eMac and the battery was fine. Though that's maybe 10 years newer than the 2GS.
13:30 When the monitor shows blurring, it suffers from Altersschwäche (weakness in old age). Possibly exchange capacitors? I had this with this monitor as well in the past, but now replaced with an IIGS-to-VGA-adaptor: "Apple IIGS VGA adapter by Manila Gear"
studio.ua-cam.com/users/videoqUYHgiIQ8zA/edit
Ive been waiting on a few things for my GS before I started any video on it. It needs restored and a...well a better usb to serial to run ADTpro. NONE of my iigs floppy disks are working lol so i cant boot gsos
Many of my actual Apple floppies do not work either but the floppy Emu is invaluable. I don't really like floppy emulators when they are internal like the GOTEK, It looks horrible and breaks the aesthetics IMO but as an external device, I have no issues with them. I probably won't do too much more to mine, get a battery holder and maybe a 4MB RAM card from Reactivemicro and I should be set.
@@AncientElectronics I've been needing a floppy emu. Got a few apples it would work with.
Mainly since with the transwarp and the full original ram upgrade it be a powerful ( in regards to the era) apple to try some games and software with. Unfortunately adtpro has been refusing to load up correctly, so I can't make os floppies.
@@AncientElectronics I run a Booti in my GS. A real game changer
@@captain3186 i was looking into getting one of those but they seem to be sold out and not being made anymore.
Amiga is way more advanced than either IIgs or ST.
Duodisk works fine with no mods needed
Hmmm, that's not what I read when I was researching the issue but I did just read this "The IIgs can use a Duodisk without problems if the analog card is the correct revision." so maybe I was reading about a machine that had a controller card of the incorrect revision.
@@AncientElectronics odd. Because it literally worked no issue when I plugged mine in lol. It’s the only 5.25” drive I have for the Apples.
Great machine, mostly suppressed by the Apple itself. They wanted to make sure that it doesnt jeopardize the rise of mac. Especially when they saw how powerful 65c816 actually is, seriously challenging mac even at abysmal clock of 2.8Mhz.
In terms of what is accomplished in one clock cycle, the 65xxx series is more efficient than the 68000. Roughly speaking, the 65C816 at 2.8 MHz CPU is comparable to a 8 MHz 68000. A IIGS running at 8 MHz is much more zippy and responsive than a Macintosh Plus or SE running at the same speed, and really flies once you hit 12-15 MHz. There were certainly other bottlenecks in the IIGS besides its CPU speed, such as its 1 MHz I/O bus and video, but it became obvious Apple hobbled the machine by refusing to increase its speed even in the slightest for the 6 years it was on the market. Even its 8-bit younger brother, the 4 MHz Apple IIc Plus, was faster than the Apple IIGS!
I think this video is good, but Im not sure. I mean maybe I have that wrong, I cant really remember. It has good sound or maybe not. Really Im just not sure of anything. LOL