IRATA Applus Rope Access Training - Adjustable 'Y' Hang, (Double Figure of 8 on a Bight)
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
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This 'Y' hang is based on one of the key competency skills required of a Rope Access technician, a 'Double Figure of 8 on a Bight' in this case we have used the knot in a more creative way and adjusted one loop small and the other large, this then allows the knot to adjust when moved laterally with an additional connector.
Care and selection of anchorage are paramount to mitigate the risk of anchor failure or rope damage. Only one system is shown here for clarity, you must use two systems, one for the main and one for the backup at all times.
Angles should be between 60 and 90 degrees, 90 degrees is called the optimum angle and ideal shouldn't be exceeded.
Why not a clove hitch instead of an alpine butterfly? It seems a little nicer to adjust and it doesn’t seem to have any safety problems in this particular application
For sure you could do a clove hitch, as it kinda works. The only reason for the Alpine was its a knot and not a rolling typy hitch, but sure it will work
I made this manuever today and I did learn. Wondefull!!
The adjustable y hang is a bit of fun. Definitely open to criticism. Although most things in irata have grey areas.
That’s why it’s a good system, nothing is bullet proof, and used in the right application is very safe,
Интересная и познавательная информация 👍
поддерживаю!
If the rope would break the original double figure 8 would still hold with 2 anchor points. The other solutions both anchors would fail no?
When you build any rigging system you build understanding system analysis! ie good anchors, no hazards, and good equipment. so don't shoot at clouds thinking what if? any system would fail if the anchor (what you attached to) failed, redundancy is for the anchorage (whats is attached to the anchor) thanks for the comment.
Load share/y-hang anchor rigging will always entail a tradeoff between sharing load and limiting extension. The current consensus in the rope access world favors limiting extension, so in an assessment/evaluation context, use this technique at your peril.
Well having been instructing now for 15 years ish I don’t agree, this system is used effectively in many situations, if an assessor can’t understand the application of use. It shows their lack of understanding not mine, thanks for the feedback though
Hi Mike. I have some reservation about this system in the context of rope access and would prefer to see Y hangs for load sharing to achieve a strength delay with separately from Y hangs from unquestionable anchors each side for positioning. Any rigging system advocating adjustability to my mind needs to balance out with a discussion about extension issues.
I think it’s highly subjective - and not for any one person to say - how this would be regarded during an evaluation / competency assessment and current consensus is not the optimal deciding factor on whether something is sound or not.
As usual, the muddled comments and somewhat defensive response from Chris gets no closer to whether this system meets the criteria for an acceptable system within the framework of SPRAT, IRATA etc.
MFT
I meant “dealt with” not “delay.”
Typo..
I don’t see where there’s been a defensive comment, but your opinion so fine! As you see in the video I show the versatility of the knot, and show it tied of once set! I have used this many many times with great success where the traditional Y hang would not have been suitable, there is no one system that perfect, no knot that’s perfect and no opinion that always right, that’s why we teach many ways.
Not a defensive stance just my educated and trained opinion, I also accept your opinion and look forward to seeing your solution to an adjustable system, that’s perfect
And muddled comment!! Lol that’s assessor all over it… perfect all the time
Very good manuever!
There’s not a perfect adjustable system; that’s a theme in the comments I guess.
I guess the climber’s equalette allows equalisation with limited extension. I didn’t criticise your method, but I did comment on the prickly responses. I think you took some of them to heart - you should know that offering anything vaguely different or thought provoking to the rope access community is just asking to be shot at.
The system has some utility…
Genial sencillamente.. Genial!! Hablando del nudo, claro.
I agree, used in the right application its fantastic.
If one point fails it's a long distance to fall in this rope( maybe I'm wrong)/ with the alpine it's ok 👍
As in the description is to show the versatility of this knot. if we need a system that moves then we make a system that moves! there is ofcourse a backup rope involved, and as long as the anchors are less than 1m apart then a single anchor is acceptable either side, if greater than this there will be two either side. So if failure in the rope occurred then nothing changes as the backup is there. If the anchor itself failed then we haven't done anything right as the anchor has not been assessed correctly. I work in the industrial world, so anchors are always bob=mb proof, so in my opinion the know as shown has many pros, and of course some flaws, but we have to stop shooting at clouds and make failures up, or we may indeed shoot down the plane that crashes into our rigging and cuts the rope.... because that's as likely!!
nice video, thank you
Cheers Chris!
Ho my!
Not on my job site.
I would suggest installing the anchors over each other & using a bunny or figure of 8 with a alpine butterfly. That way your anchor systems is always shared & redundant.
Its a demonstration of the knot and use as an adjustable anchor, not a fixed system, you clearly have redundancy with the backup rope,
@@applusropeaccesstraining1179
I was not trying to be unpleasant. I think it's a nice anchor system but there is a better simpler way. If you install your anchors one over the other then there is no need for all that adjusting.
Feedback is always good, we may be missing something, i dont understand why you say put anchors one over the other! the anchors are where they are, no possibility of moving, them, that why i show the knot as adjustable, so good for the edge man walking along the top of a cliff or in the way i used for work was under a walkway running fiberoptic lines, where the tech was able to position himself and we mealy pushed the system (knot) left and right to allow movement, this eliminated the need for hauling and lowering constantly.
Its all about suitability for each task, its not right all the time but has applications. if your going to be static, then you can get redundancy between the anchor by creating an alpine in the large bight,. But after all if the anchor was to fail, regardless of whats there that side has gone, so make sure the anchor is good, system analysis! each system built for the intended task.
We all have our own ways and opinions, this is a variation and not the only way, nobody can say their way is best!
Good feedback , and thanks for commenting.
I find it hard to comment on rope access stuff sometimes. The discussions tend to get out of hand.
My comment only applies if you are using mechanical anchors. Since that's what you were using I thought about anchor positioning. Hope it helps you see my thought process. Cheers.
They get out of hand and generally no closer to a technical consensus.
This and the sliding Z rig are recreational devices only and should not be used in Industrial Rope Access. A failure of a single anchor in these systems will cause a significant impact load due the the accumulated slack in the system. There are better ways.
It's unnerving that this stuff is being trained. If you did this in an assessment in front of me I'd fail you. Ian Anger A/3/2893i
Great work Ian, if I set up an anchor set with failure in mind I wouldn’t be doing my job, it’s called system analysis and has been use for years in the selection of anchor and sound rigging, each system built for the intended task,
It’s a demonstration of how a type of knot can be used to achieve many things, i personally select my anchor as required to be min SS of 15kn, therefore how can they fail,
I also disagree with two rigging plates, but that what make training and assessing different, I am open to opinion and not base my thoughts solely on my own, experience comes into it. Just because your an assessor it don’t mean your the holy grail
i guess it's quite off topic but does anybody know of a good website to stream new tv shows online ?
Hi Iain
Would you go straight to fail or would you explore the candidate’s understanding of the system and its limitations, perhaps using it as an opportunity for learning?
Just curious.
2 rigging plates is consistent with the ICOP and rules out one more needless grey area. Every component between D ring and anchor doubled. Simplicity!
If the big loop goes (gets cut) the whole system fails
Disculpa? Esta permitido por la norma? 🙏
Si está permitido por irata
Thanks it's new to me
good👍
If the main loop (in the adjustable setup) gets cut its tickets. Dangerous without the alpine.
Your not looking at the system correctly, this is to show the flexibility of the knot and we use a twin system so if failure occurred you would simply drop to the back up, if the anchor point failed, then you chose the wrong anchor to start with and haven’t applied system analysis, thanks for the comment
@@applusropeaccesstraining1179 I am taking my L3 test next week and have been a L2 close to 9 years. I know that there is a backup but if the large loop is cut on the one line, then the liklyehood is that the backup is cut too. Not talking about the anchor failing but the rope being cut. The backup bolt will be usless without the alpine to hold the secondary loop intact
Anything could happen. Say your bolts are on a ledge balcony and some poor resident living above accidentally drops their ceramic pot plant 3 stories directly onto the one anchor, severing both lines running through it. Would be over without the alpine.
@@stephendosson246 this is not the system for you then, having taught technical rescue in irata and fire service not many years there are many setups for many scenarios, this is just one, I have used this on a large scale many times and it was suitable, not the right system for hanging on the side of a building! You will be wrong to think, there’s one system for everything,
And the point about one rope being cut, so would the other applies to all systems, especially tensioned lines, do we stop using them or do we rig them where there’s no foreseeable potential risk?
Thanks for the comments again
@@applusropeaccesstraining1179 if both the backup and mainline are cut off just the one anchor then bunny ears or other y hang configurations will still catch on the 2nd anchor. This without the alpine will not catch
I would also add that historically systems don’t fail due to anchor failures, it’s because of poor risk assessment! If you carry out a correct assessment of the anchor, based on experience and understanding of the system in use then what can go wrong? Yeh sure, meteor strike, act if god all could happen but really!!
Build the system for the intended task, if you want it to be adjustable then build it in, if you want it static then do that, there no hard and fast rule apart from understand why you did it that way. I don’t teach this on an irata course, but show the knot here as intended as a flexible system.
What I do teach, based on a lots of experience is there’s more than one way to do it, and we all learn everyday! I am more than happy for feedback constructive or otherwise, I hope you are also!
Agreed. I know it's not a popular notion today, but safety can be overdone: "If I am anchored to a truck, what happens if someone drives it away? If I am anchored to that 100 year old pine tree and for no reason it falls down, what do I do?" There's no end to that road. Let's evaluate probabilities rather then assume every system is prone to catastrophic failure. Not every biner has to be a locker.
If we go down that road we would be constantly trying to assess likelihood and it would be both tiring and subjective.
This sistem whit sling will be better
As it suggest its showing the versatility of such a knot, once in the right place setting with Alpine is best.
It's looks y hang...but if any of one rope cut the entire system will fail and become a danger situation, never seen Irata recommended these kind of anchor systems so far...,
In rope access you're always attached to a backup line. So if the main line fails you don't fall.
Utterly pointless system the moment you introduce the butterfly
You clearly miss the point of it then,
@@chrisdavies5515 nope I understand the system perfectly, it’s just pointless once you introduce the butterfly …… there’s less gear and less time to simply adjust your standard bunny ears to the new position using the common loop.
Once I introduce the alpine it’s no longer self adjusting, it’s no longer faster than simply adjusting your bunny ears and it’s used more gear …… so what’s the actual point of it?
If you are going to use a self adjusting system, accept the risk of shock loading it or don’t bother. The moment you introduce the bunny ears you’re negating the very reason you chose that system in the first place….. you’re quite literally choosing a self adjusting system, then decided it’s not safe because it’s self adjusting and you’re control measure is introduced more knots and karabiners to make it non-self adjusting…… honestly it’s now a completely pointless system which offers absolutely no advantages to a standard Y-hang 🤷♂️🤷♂️
@@daveloch905 The point is for the critics.... you clearly wouldn't make this system this small, but larger (I have used this >10m anchor apart) where I needed to move from left t right, once in place the alpine is to lock in place, its very easy to remove and re-adjust. The idea about the Alpine is to mitigate total failure on the effected rope due to being cut etc... yes I know the rope shouldn't get cut or damages, but again that's not the point here, it simply showing ho to lock off.
the typical 8 and alpine is for sure good for fixed system then there isn't much movement, but as an educated man I am sure, you will see I was demonstrating the flexibility of this stsyem rather then what you literally see in front of you with a single point system and size. Also the typical Bunnies is for sure good, but really not that east to adjust, common loop is often tied not in the common place
Its the way many FRS ERT teams use around the world, but ofcourse there are other methods..
@@applusropeaccesstraining1179 dude, you’re supposed to be an IRATA instructor, even if you did use this on anchors spread 10m apart, you should be sticking to ICOP on social media and talking about a wide y-hang. You’re supposed to train to best practice not ERT and Recreational techniques which accept higher levels of risk
If I was showing the knot as a 10m anchor I would have used 2 anchors either side as I am guessing you realise! I am not teaching IRATA on this video.
The reason for the clip was to show the knot, maybe come on a course and with us, and see, or shoot from the sideline, I am very happy with my ability and competency. Pleasure chatting,