Should women be ordained? What does the Bible say? Ask NT Wright Anything Podcast
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- Опубліковано 7 чер 2024
- Bible scholar NT Wright answers a listener'a question asking whether he believes the Bible affirms women ordination and shares a bit of his background and what led to his understanding and perspective on this.
👀 Looking for More? 👀 Tom expounds on women and leadership, deacons and apostles, and the often referenced passage of 1 Timothy 2 v 11-12 in this podcast episode ➡️ • Is the Bible sexist? S...
#womenordination #women_issues #1timothy #patriarchy #biblestudy #tomwright
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Ask NT Wright Anything Podcast
The show that connects you to NT (Tom) Wright’s thoughts and theology through your questions. Produced by Premier Unbelievable in partnership with SPCK and NTWrightOnline.
About NT (Tom) Wright: Tom Wright is one of the world’s leading New Testament scholars and the author of numerous books including Surprised by Hope, The Day The Revolution Began, Paul: A Biography and most recently Jesus and the Powers. He is senior research fellow at Wycliffe Hall, University of Oxford. Wright is ordained in the Church of England and, among other roles, served as Bishop of Durham between 2003 - 2010. He is much in demand as a lecturer around the world and the author for the bestselling For Everyone commentary series and the New Testament For Everyone Bible translation. Wright is married to Maggie and they have 4 children. As well as being a voracious reader, he loves classical music and opera and enjoys playing the guitar!
How does you explain the requirements of elders, "husband of one wife" for those who approves woman in leadership esp. that or eldership or woman ordination?
Mike Winger's UA-cam 'women in ministry' series is a more balanced and deeper exploration of what the bible really says on this.
Which includes, among many others, researching the claims of NT Wright on this topic.
🐟 25. THE ROLE OF FEMALES:
Females are fortunate, because they are BORN with a job: Daughter. Wife. Mother.
Girls and women normally have no role in public life. Exceptions to this rule are relatively rare. For instance, women may work part-time in the arts, which often demand female players (such as singers, actors, and dancers). Also, some women may serve temporarily as maids or as nurses, both of which are feminine duties, providing it has no detrimental effect on their PRIMARY vocation, as daughters, wives, and mothers.
So, a female’s fundamental role is to serve her MASTERS (any man in her family circle), even from a relatively young age, by performing domestic duties and raising her children. Barren women (heterosexual or otherwise) are extremely unfortunate, but can still devote their lives to serving their husband, father, grandfather, uncles, or in the improbable event that none of those men are extant, their adult male cousins.
Studies have shown that the more a woman deviates from this innate societal function, the less she is fulfilled. Hence the label, “Cat Lady”.
As a general rule, women should be protected in the home, and never wander-out alone. They should FULLY cover their bodies in the presence of post-pubescent males outside the family circle. Even the prostitutes in some nations wear veils in public, even if it is out of fear of reprisal.
Having lived the eremitic life of a monastic priest for a few decades, I can attest to the importance of keeping one’s home clean and tidy. It is obvious to me that housekeeping is very much a full-time occupation, and that if I was to neglect my domestic chores, my health and comfort would greatly diminish. As would be expected of a person in my position, I follow a strict diet and am obsessive in relation to hygiene. Without a spouse, the onus is on me to maintain my residence in a prim and proper manner, even though it results in me spending less time teaching religion as a member of the Holy Priesthood (The World Teacher, in my particular case). Therefore, the role of a housewife is of PARAMOUNT importance, and must never be discounted by anybody, particularly feminist ideologues. The following chapter deals with that evil ideology.
The ONLY reason I have resided alone for most of my adult life is due to the fact that there is a severe scarcity of decent women in my country, (and indeed, the entire world), what to speak of holy and righteous women! Unfortunately, few women, particularly in the more affluent nations, any longer receive adequate training in the connubial arts. In my former marriages, I was forced to perform most household chores.
In recent centuries, due to various factors (FEMINISM, in particular), women have become so degraded, that is it practically impossible to find a representative of an ideal woman. Therefore, in order to reference examples of such a woman, one is forced to refer to figures from ancient myths. Mariam, the mother of Lord Jesus Christ, and Devī Sītārānī, the wife of Śrī Rāja Rāma, King of Ayodhya, are the epitome of womanhood, and ought to be the role models for each and every girl born on this planet. That is assuming, of course, that those two women were, in actual fact, the gentle, refined, humble and submissive goddesses they were portrayed to be in the archaic scriptures (and assuming they existed).
Those women who complain that they are far too “ENLIGHTENED”, too “good” and/or too “talented” to devote themselves to mere domestic duties, and ought to use their gifts in the public arena, rather than “squander” their abilities on household chores, could (theoretically) become the next Blessed Mother Mary of Nazareth (who raised Lord Jesus the Christ), Queen Devakī (or Śrīmatī Yaśodā Mata, who fostered Lord Kṛṣṇa), or Queen Mahāmāyā (or Mahāprajāpatī Gautamī, who fostered Lord Siddhārtha Gautama, commonly known as “The Buddha”) by raising and training future sages, capable of leading the masses of people into self-realization, and thereby leaving a valuable legacy for future generations, or at least raising potentially righteous, holy men and women. Surely, such self-proclaimed “great” women ought to bestow their fine genes to forthcoming generations by procreating offspring, rather than usurping societal roles better suited to men, would you not agree?
Obviously, this teaching receives an ENORMOUS amount of scorn, derision, and contempt from a certain proportion of women, as well as many excruciatingly-pathetic (so-called) “men”, but that is perfectly fine, because such foolish feminists are destined to die lonely and alone, without any family surrounding them, and hopefully unable to transfer their adulterated genes to forthcoming generations of human beings.
In the towns and cities of India (properly called “Bhārata”), one can see STRAY COWS freely wandering the urban streets, displaying their teats.
Similarly, in most locations, women wander the dangerous streets alone, or in groups, displaying their bosoms and other bodily parts.
Such loose women are no better than STRAY COWS.
The TRUTH is very difficult to accept, right?
“Three things cannot be long hidden:
the sun, the moon, and the TRUTH.”
“Aṅguttara Nikāya” 3.131 (Paraphrased),
Siddhārtha Gautama (AKA The Buddha),
“...encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be self-controlled, chaste, good managers of the household, kind, being submissive to their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited.”
*************
“Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
*************
“Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.”
*************
“Yet women will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.”
*************
“Women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.”
“Titus” 2:4-5; “Ephesians” 5:22-24; “Colossians” 3:18; “1 Timothy” 2:15; “1 Corinthians” 14:34,
Saul/Paul of Tarsus.
mike winger is incompetent in the discipline of biblical scholarship and research; he hasn't been trained to do that. But this is just an assertion because I can't refute an 11 hours video in one comment. I just noticed that his fans give mike a reputation that doesn't correspond: like, he is not a scholar or a powerful voice on the topic, he is an expert UA-camr who likes to gather commentaries and books and give a presentation filled with fallacies. Quantity doesn't equal quality; popularity doesn't equal credibility. The man (NT Wright) literally took and takes biblical studies seriously to the point of graduate and doctoral level done at Oxford and with other scholars worldwide and writing bunch of books throughout many years; like, the man is not speaking out of nowhere. You can't bring up mike's "hours" of independent study in his room with no educational background and say that his series "is a more balanced and deeper exploration of what the Bible really says on this." 😂🤣
Please shut your mouth, NT. Or repent for twisting scripture around.
We must all do our best to work through these issues in our own study, whilst obviously taking on-board what scholars say - on different sides.
Because it’s true, Popularity doesn’t equal Credibility.
But at the same time - no one is perfect. And in the words of John Lennox…
“Nonsense is still nonsense, even when spoken by a genius”.
So majority opinion doesn’t decide truth. And scholarly authorities aren’t always right.
Have you noticed that in churches where women are leading, the men are leaving? Men do not want to be led in spiritual matters by women. The main issue is it is unbiblical.
Thing is, it's not scripture that has convinced me on this. Yes, the new testament doesn't seem massively affirming of female ordination, but then there are two points on that: 1. It's very difficult to know how to read that culturally. 2. The whole concept of "ordination" and church roles and leadership is pretty flaky in scripture. There are mentions here and there about church leadership, and deacons and whatnot, but, exactly what model of church leadership we should have is far from clear at all in scripture, because, frankly, the early church was still figuring it out. At the point of writing the New Testament, the early church is not much more than a bunch of guys meeting in each other's houses, and it's very hard to know exactly how to extrapolate that to leadership models of modern church.
BUT: there is a more practical point - every woman led church I have ever seen has inevitably wandered into ever more liberal theological territory. Just has. Make of that what you will.
🐟 25. THE ROLE OF FEMALES:
Females are fortunate, because they are BORN with a job: Daughter. Wife. Mother.
Girls and women normally have no role in public life. Exceptions to this rule are relatively rare. For instance, women may work part-time in the arts, which often demand female players (such as singers, actors, and dancers). Also, some women may serve temporarily as maids or as nurses, both of which are feminine duties, providing it has no detrimental effect on their PRIMARY vocation, as daughters, wives, and mothers.
So, a female’s fundamental role is to serve her MASTERS (any man in her family circle), even from a relatively young age, by performing domestic duties and raising her children. Barren women (heterosexual or otherwise) are extremely unfortunate, but can still devote their lives to serving their husband, father, grandfather, uncles, or in the improbable event that none of those men are extant, their adult male cousins.
Studies have shown that the more a woman deviates from this innate societal function, the less she is fulfilled. Hence the label, “Cat Lady”.
As a general rule, women should be protected in the home, and never wander-out alone. They should FULLY cover their bodies in the presence of post-pubescent males outside the family circle. Even the prostitutes in some nations wear veils in public, even if it is out of fear of reprisal.
Having lived the eremitic life of a monastic priest for a few decades, I can attest to the importance of keeping one’s home clean and tidy. It is obvious to me that housekeeping is very much a full-time occupation, and that if I was to neglect my domestic chores, my health and comfort would greatly diminish. As would be expected of a person in my position, I follow a strict diet and am obsessive in relation to hygiene. Without a spouse, the onus is on me to maintain my residence in a prim and proper manner, even though it results in me spending less time teaching religion as a member of the Holy Priesthood (The World Teacher, in my particular case). Therefore, the role of a housewife is of PARAMOUNT importance, and must never be discounted by anybody, particularly feminist ideologues. The following chapter deals with that evil ideology.
The ONLY reason I have resided alone for most of my adult life is due to the fact that there is a severe scarcity of decent women in my country, (and indeed, the entire world), what to speak of holy and righteous women! Unfortunately, few women, particularly in the more affluent nations, any longer receive adequate training in the connubial arts. In my former marriages, I was forced to perform most household chores.
In recent centuries, due to various factors (FEMINISM, in particular), women have become so degraded, that is it practically impossible to find a representative of an ideal woman. Therefore, in order to reference examples of such a woman, one is forced to refer to figures from ancient myths. Mariam, the mother of Lord Jesus Christ, and Devī Sītārānī, the wife of Śrī Rāja Rāma, King of Ayodhya, are the epitome of womanhood, and ought to be the role models for each and every girl born on this planet. That is assuming, of course, that those two women were, in actual fact, the gentle, refined, humble and submissive goddesses they were portrayed to be in the archaic scriptures (and assuming they existed).
Those women who complain that they are far too “ENLIGHTENED”, too “good” and/or too “talented” to devote themselves to mere domestic duties, and ought to use their gifts in the public arena, rather than “squander” their abilities on household chores, could (theoretically) become the next Blessed Mother Mary of Nazareth (who raised Lord Jesus the Christ), Queen Devakī (or Śrīmatī Yaśodā Mata, who fostered Lord Kṛṣṇa), or Queen Mahāmāyā (or Mahāprajāpatī Gautamī, who fostered Lord Siddhārtha Gautama, commonly known as “The Buddha”) by raising and training future sages, capable of leading the masses of people into self-realization, and thereby leaving a valuable legacy for future generations, or at least raising potentially righteous, holy men and women. Surely, such self-proclaimed “great” women ought to bestow their fine genes to forthcoming generations by procreating offspring, rather than usurping societal roles better suited to men, would you not agree?
Obviously, this teaching receives an ENORMOUS amount of scorn, derision, and contempt from a certain proportion of women, as well as many excruciatingly-pathetic (so-called) “men”, but that is perfectly fine, because such foolish feminists are destined to die lonely and alone, without any family surrounding them, and hopefully unable to transfer their adulterated genes to forthcoming generations of human beings.
In the towns and cities of India (properly called “Bhārata”), one can see STRAY COWS freely wandering the urban streets, displaying their teats.
Similarly, in most locations, women wander the dangerous streets alone, or in groups, displaying their bosoms and other bodily parts.
Such loose women are no better than STRAY COWS.
The TRUTH is very difficult to accept, right?
“Three things cannot be long hidden:
the sun, the moon, and the TRUTH.”
“Aṅguttara Nikāya” 3.131 (Paraphrased),
Siddhārtha Gautama (AKA The Buddha),
“...encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be self-controlled, chaste, good managers of the household, kind, being submissive to their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited.”
*************
“Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
*************
“Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.”
*************
“Yet women will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.”
*************
“Women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.”
“Titus” 2:4-5; “Ephesians” 5:22-24; “Colossians” 3:18; “1 Timothy” 2:15; “1 Corinthians” 14:34,
Saul/Paul of Tarsus.
I was trying to read your reply but then I couldn't understand what it means because ""words are hard""
1 Corinthians 11:3 LSB - "3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."
Surrender
I think what's relieving to me, is that I don't need to have a full command of first-century Middle Eastern culture to understand Paul's argument because he doesn't couch his argument culturally. Rather, he says "Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." That's the evidence he gives for his argument in 1 Tim 2. So whatever he's getting across, he's not asking us to look to culture but to this human and spiritual universal.
@alphablitz1024. Then why does Paul mention women who were in leadership roles and also women who taught him? I don’t think it is a universal principle/prescription to follow.
So.....did he answer yes or no? Ive no idea
Re the spirit of charity and ecumenism, i have never seen a women-ordaining church de-emphasize their female leaders in a spirit of unity.
I am sorry to say that I do not agree with women's ordination... It's approving feminism....PRAYING FOR YOU
What does "affirming feminism" even mean?
@@keelyemerine-mix1051 And why is it a problem?
How does one make a demand on Charity, but not on Conscience? Charity is the Christian's participation in the divine life; the love God poured forth into the hearts of Christians. It is a disposition to act, i.e., to perform acts which carry out the Christian's basic commitment of faith. Conscience in a full and strict sense is an awareness of moral truth. Judgments of right and wrong by a person with a mature conscience express more than awareness of what is socially required or acceptable. Yes, let's have a "fresh scriptural awareness" devoid of 2000 years of the embodied experiences of the community of faith.
Used to be a big fan of Wright. During Covid his stance blew me away and now this? There’s a reason that people are leaving Protestantism for orthodoxy.
NT Woke
This is in fact what is dividing the church, because one group is insisting on interpreting the Scriptures the way they want to, and the other sees that and sees everything that is going to happen if that is allowed to happen. We are not creating the division, you are.
Literally everyone interprets scripture. You just agree with one interpretation over another.
@@thebard2806 I agree with an interpretation which makes sense of grammar, language and history, which honours the history of interpretation and the scholarly consensus even today. I disagree with an interpretation which twists the Scriptures to say the exact opposite of what it says.
@@josephnatali8802 The scholarly consensus is that the epistles reveal dozens of women in leadership positions in the early church. Deacons, church planters, prophets, etc. Because as Galations 3:28 says, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
The only twists in grammar or language I've seen on this topic are attempts to erase female leaders from biblical writings.
@@thebard2806 no problem with any of those positions, clearly women did those things. There is just no woman assuming the position of elder and teaching to the congregation. Tota Scriptura, let's take all the verses, not just the ones that favour either a misogynist reading or a feminist reading. Let us neither accommodate culture in the past nor in the present but obey all of the Scriptures. I really don't see it as that hard, and in fact, this is de facto what happens in most assemblies because God has called us and gifted us in ways that are gender-specific, though there are outliers. We can figure out how to use the gifts of these exceptions in ways that honor the Scriptures. I want above all to respect what God has clearly revealed.
@@josephnatali8802 My understanding, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that there are many instances of women teaching and instructing men in scripture.
Priscilla had a church in her home (Romans 16:3-5) which would have meant very likely she was taking part in teaching and instruction. It’s also interesting that she instructed Apollos in key theological understandings (Acts 18:24-28). If women were not allowed to instruct men, how is this okay? Funny also that many translations put her husbands name first in Acts 18:26 but the original Greek has Priscilla’s name first. Name order was a big deal in Greek as it denoted authority.
Where we have women prophets & apostles, those would have been roles of authority and instruction.
Chloe (1 Corinthians 1:11), Nympha (Colossians 4:15), and Apphia (Philemon 1:2) all led house churches in ways where it seems like they would have been teaching and instructing.
Phoebe, a female deacon & business woman delivered Paul’s leter to the church in Rome. A huge deal, as the one delivering the letter would have been responsible for reading it and explaining it to the listeners. Essentially giving the first sermon based off of Romans! While it can’t be proven this was the case with the letter to the Romans, it would be customary and therefore where the data would lead us.
NT Wright is NT Wrong. Notice he offers no teaching from the relevant texts of Scripture on the subject. According to Eph. 5:22 in a household a wife is to be in submission to the loving leadership of her husband. Now imagine if that was reversed in a church where all the men are in submission to the female pastor - so unbiblical.
The Bishop of Dover and Paula Vennels (sp) show women should not be ordained.
Ordaining women is wrong.
get over it
@@AS-sn5gf You replied to a comment that was made 6 hours ago on a video that was just released ... doesn't that seem strange to you?
@@Cmedic57 uh, i guess?
I notice it's mostly men who don't like women being ordained. Get over it.
Could you please cite biblical documentation that honestly forbids women being ordained?
NT Wrong
Had to do it, sorry
But the context for the prohibition against women in pastoral leadership is clearly to not give offense in the culture surrounding the church. Nowadays, that culture views the church as hopelessly misogynistic and irrelevant because of these restrictions. He is doing a proper hermeneutic here by appealing to the meaning behind the prohibition and not simply to it, much to the consternation of patriarchal Christian men
The Church of England is over anyway, so it's a non-issue.
N.T. Wright on whether we should grind up the Bible into a fine paper confetti and use it for cake sprinkles.
There's only one real position of leadership in the church. That is the role of Sovereign Priest and King. That position is filled, everyone else is a servant. Everyone else is a servant to every servants.
1 Corinthians 11:3 LSB -
"3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."
There are always lots of jobs needing to be filled and many works to be done in any Body!
Men and women are given gifts for these and should use them!
Gods Word for men and women is pretty clear. Across family and in church which is also His Family, there is nothing unclear about roles and gifts.
As a woman I don't have authority over men, but if my gift is teaching I can certainly teach them.
Ordination carries authority.
Basically, go with the flow and forget the Bible. Good job NT, not.
He’s saying that he saw “a very strong amount of scriptural affirmation” of women in ministry (1:25). Even if you disagree with his exegesis, he’s not just going with the flow, but grounding his views in the scripture.
@@jaredmatthews1561 There is NO Scriptural evidence that women held or were authorized to hold a position of a pastor = presbyter = bishop. There is a plenty of Scriptural evidence that women are not allowed to teach/preach within the church settings or to hold a position of authority.
@@SL-dq5bz I concur. One of the qualifications of pastor or elder, was that they be the HUSBAND of one wife. Only pagan religions had female priests which often served as temple prostitutes. Sadly the church did not stay true to Old Testament Jewish Rabbinical traditions of ONLY male priests from where the early church originated. Let us never forget that ALL the apostles were Jewish, and so was Jesus, the Messiah, "King of the Jews".
@@SL-dq5bz I think that the scriptural evidence would be the amount of women mentioned alongside men by Paul as fellow-workers with him. Romans 16 has 24 men mentioned and 14 women mentioned. It’s important to note that these are church leaders (Phoebe is called a deacon, or minister, and Julia is called an apostle). There are also no men specifically called πρεσβύτερος (presbyter) or επίσκοπος (bishop) in the Bible.
@@Cmedic57 One of the qualifications for being a Deacon was to be the ‘husband of one wife’ as well. However, Phoebe is a Deacon of the Cenchraean church. ‘The Husband of one wife’ most likely just means that they need to be monogamous and not become divorced. This can’t be taken literally since Paul was single, and advised others to be single, yet was clearly at bare minimum a pastor and elder.
The New Testament church has different qualifications for leaders than the Jerusalem temple did in the Old Testament. For one, disabled people and unclean people could not be priests or even welcome in the temple. Additionally, only Levites could be priests, no Gentiles or even those of other tribes of Israel. However, in the New covenant this is different. There is no male and female in Christ and things work differently now.
The bible also says slaves submit to your masters. Perhaps you guys should start setting your morality based on a sense of compassion and mutual respect rather than a 2000 year old book written for a different culture
And we do obey to our masters. When Joseph acquired all Egyptians as slaves for Pharaoh, they were supposed to pay him 20% of their income. Today we pay over 60% in taxes. Slavery is alive and well today as 2000 and 4000 years ago. Obey the God's word.
Cry me a river..If you believe humans are protoplasm, space dust wish shared ancestry with banana 🍌 you have no moral claim on slavery.. from one side of your mouth you devalue humans by stripping them of intrinsic worth, and then try to disparage one piece of protoplasm from doing something to another piece if protoplasm like protoplasm has moral worth...
Pick a lane and stay on it...are we deserving dignity as humans outside your personal prejudices (objectively) or is it your personal opinion that slavery is wrong? Slavery which Christians abolished...
Jesus went to the women first, come on you men who think it is wrong ordaining women.
Tell that to Paul, or the whole entirety of the Priesthood...or 2,000 years of church tradition.....show them how stupid they are by gracing them with your far superior intellect and spirituality.
Irrelevant.
Now why would yt delete my comment...
I said you can disagree with apostle Paul, 2,000 years of church tradition, and the whole old testament Priesthood tradition...
But you show then how enlightened you are, unlike them old archaic men who should bow to your clearly superior intellect and spirituality.
Actually Jesus went to men first, and selected 12 apostles from among them. ALL the apostles were men ... NO women were chosen as apostles, but many women chose to follow Him. When I was a child I thought as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things. I no longer need a mom to hold my hand, but I do need a savior and He is Jesus Christ. He will lead me home with the help of other godly men and women in my life who join me in fellowship and prayer.
@@angru_arches That happens to me sometimes. I type a nice too long message and it gets deleted, or more likely just doesn't get posted due to an error. ONLY the original poster, Premier Unbelievable, has the ability to delete your post, but I don't think that happened unless you were being rude and obnoxious. Be respectful and you shouldn't have an issue.😊