I don't know if it's different in the US but I do Lau Gar kung fu here in the UK and we spar and evolve (although there is still a big traditional element), we won loads of kickboxing tournaments in the 70's, 80's and 90's - basically before MMA became big. In fact, in MMA, MVP is a former Lau Gar practitioner I believe.
@notgodzod There's MVP, Kevin Holland, "Big Country" Roy Nelson is a kung-fu guy. You mentioned the 70's, 80's and 90's, I know the Chinese styles were definitely respected in the 70's and 80's. Is the school still open? And please don't get me wrong, there's always the few. I replied to someone else saying, there's always a few, but the majority isn't there anymore. But, take a Muay Thai school. All over the globe, the majority can fight. We've lost our way in the Chinese martial arts. Thanks for the comment.
@@TheIronandSilk Thanks for replying! Yes the school is still - I'm the instructor! Though to be honest it's just a very small class now, and more for families and hobbyists rather than full on fighters. But there are also other Lau Gar clubs all over the country, I assume they still train some decent fighters. I take your point though - Muay Thai school produce fighters consistently, whereas kung fu and karate schools often don't. I think, as I get older, I have come to enjoy the art form of kung fu more - but I get that if this is the main focus then the less appropriate it becomes to call it a martial art, as opposed to, say, a movement art. Thanks again for the vid and the for the interesting take on things.
@@notgodzod Thanks for the conversation. May your school flourish. I wish you and your students much success. It sounds like they have one of the good kung-fu teachers out there. I received a lot of hate because of this video, so I thank you so much for the commonsense discussion.
My thoughts from researching xingyi for about 20 some odd years: 1. Xingyi like almost all Chinese chuan fa systems was developed and maintained during an era where competitive combat sports was not really a big thing like it was in the West, therefore there wasn't a lot of "field tested research" to identify what worked and what needed to be modified. 2. As a result, pretty much all the teachers never actually fought, so the techniques were developed in an isolated echo-chamber of theoretics instead of real world practical application. 3. Because of 1 and 2, there are known, proven effective techniques that never made it into the average xingyi curriculum (like the basic hook punch, which wasn't really developed until around the early 20th century by western boxers doing real world research in the ring). 4. Most Chinese martial arts have an undue emphasis on routines ("forms" or what westerners like to call "kata"). As Hai Yang points out on his internal martial arts channel, practice of routines or "forms" should only take a few minutes per training session, the bulk of the time should be spent on practicing single movement techniques and martial applications of said techniques. Also, routines were developed to include movements that weren't "fighting" techniques, but flexibility and mobility and strengthening movements, basically a type of calisthenics workout. But people think those movements are "fighting techniques" and try to make the unworkable work. Also, pretty much all routines include movements developed strictly for public performance and aesthetic reasons. Public "demonstrations" (martial arts street operas) were a big thing in the 1800s in China, and were basically kung fu theater before motion pictures were invented. 5. Too many are too conservative, thus the idea of taking the actual techniques that work (basic kickboxing and grappling) and applying known xingyi principles to them is considered anathema and heretical by many in the traditional martial arts community. Therefore xingyi fails to evolve the way boxing, kickboxing, and even things like kyokushin and muay thai have evolved. 6. Too many are still caught up in "woo-woo" chi-power "internal means no muscle power" nonsense. Some of the early xingyi manuals do contain obvious propaganda and marketing tactics regarding how they spoke of "external kung fu", but the really old stuff talks about how "external kung fu" is the kind of fancy flashy street performance kung fu, whereas "internal kung fu" is the real stuff where the kung fu isn't "empty" or lacking in real application and ability. Thus it seems the original idea about "internal vs external" had more to do with "external is outward appearance only and internal is solid kung fu that works". But still too many want to be the 80 year old park taichi guy beating up 20 year old mma fighters, and it just ain't happening.
Majority of what you said is wrong. Hsing I was created during the warring period and used for the revolution and early military of PRC. Also wrong on boxing, the standard 10 punches been in it since at least the Greek imperial Era plus many more methods. The problem is no practice no sparring no fighting. You're not going to fight if all you do is taebo even though it has boxing in it.
@@gharm9129 What we know of as "the hook" in boxing was introduced by Jack Broughton around 1740. And, it wasn't quite what is now considered a "proper hook", it was a bit longer. There is no "continued direct lineage" from ancient Greek or Egyptian pugilists to today. Boxing before Queensbury Rules was bareknuckle, with a long, lower guard, and mostly straight punches, with power shots to the body not the head being the norm. Also palm strikes, trips, grappling etc were included. Xingyi is ACTUALLY documented to being a definite thing in the late 18th/early 19th century. Stories about Marshal Yueh Fei are just that, and if you believe them then you would believe dozens of different kung fu styles were invented by him. The actual historical documentation is pretty clear though, it was pretty much Li Luoneng who developed Xingyiquan from an older style of xinyiquan (aka liu he xinyiquan or xinyi liu he quan practiced by the Dai family). The Dai family claimed to have got their xinyi (not xinGyi, but xinyi, no "g") from Ji Longfeng (aka Ji Jike) who called it "liu he quan". So the actual historical documentation for xingyi dates to the early 19th century. It was used as a basis for the early 20th century Kuomintang's military hand to hand combat training, and was apparently the preferred style that was going to be used for the unified kuoshu system they were developing, but that doesn't mean most of it wasn't being taught in an impractical manner. The US Army taught a basic Shotokan style karate as "military combatives" in the 60s and early 70s, and it was completely useless according to just about every Vietnam vet I have talked to (including my dad). However, the ROK's taekwondo was - according to him and them - something to be feared.
Also, you are absolutely correct about the lack of sparring. Many kung fu stylists claim their art is too deadly for sparring or competition, even though their arts all contain histories of the founders and early masters engaging in and winning numerous competitions and tournaments with their style! Sadly, such excuses for lack of actual martial ability and skill are all too common in the "traditional martial arts" world. I am not even sure why that is. Back when I was a kid in the late 70s doing "American Karate" (taekwondo) everybody from the 5 year olds up to the adults were learning because they wanted to be able to fight, whether for self defense or competition or (like me) just to be able to whip butt and not be bullied by neighborhood punks. A lot of traditional martial arts though have attracted all the wrong types of people the last 30 years or so. Either old-man park tai chi stylists, or larpers wanting to spit chi balls out their hind end. At least "cardio kickboxing" is honest about what it's doing lol.
athenry, you bring up a lot of points. Hsing-I, being a major love in my life. I have been able to "modify" it, if you will, to the point that I am very comfortable with my Hsing-I in self-defense. After all, Hsing-I has been modified, for they no longer hold a spear to fight with. I just can't understand what makes the practitioners continue to hold their hands in a position as though they're holding a spear. As far as the Tai Chi people not being able to hold their own against a MMA person, most, and I do mean most, Tai Chi "masters" aren't martial artists. These "Tai Chi people" are simply practitioners that become "teachers" without any knowledge of the martial aspects of Tai Chi Chuan. Thank you so much for your comment as it was enjoyable to read. As far as the Hsing-I, I see the history a little different. Thanks again!
@@gharm9129 My man! Absolutely correct as far as I know on Hsing-I. "The problem is, no practice, no sparring, no fighting." It doesn't get any simpler than that! Thanks for the great comment.
There's plenty of great Sanda fighters and other sport fighters who also practice traditional. The problem is when people who do not train for sport or serious combat, think they can somehow fight at that level of intensity. It's a matter of conditioning and training to actually fight hard. And of course sparring at the appropriate level. Just like any sport. Knowing how to play with friends doesn't mean we will be able to compete in the Olympics or professional.
@Liminal_Life Very good points. I'm a Chinese martial artist all my life. All I'm saying is that it's commonly known throughout all martial arts. Most kung-fu practitioners can't really defend themselves. It wasn't this way once upon a time Don't get me wrong. I know the Chinese martial arts to be the very best for fighting and for health. I don't know of any other martial arts that even come close to that balance. It's just shameful what it has come to, that's all.
I think that Asian martial arts in general suffer from a stereotype that says they’re all hokey parlor tricks made of smoke and mirrors, with the Chinese arts taking the biggest hit. You ask a really important question here Steve and it’s a big question with a lot of answers. Lack of sparring yep, missing DNA in the transmission of the art that by design is hierarchical is a problem if you’re missing certain skills too. Sometimes I wonder too about what the true place is for an art that is no longer in the cultural context of it original transmission or creation, and about what modernization really means. Your example of Shuai Chiao is a good one and illustrates what I’m talking about here. In the West we usually talk about improving along the lines of efficiency, shortened time lines, optimization and pressure testing, it’s tough when you begin to look at the limitations of short cuts as well as the benefits. These arts are not the product of Western thinking, and I’ve always felt that caution ought be used when we cut what we see as inessential, in our results oriented rush to be effective. As these arts die out, it appears that the mantle is being passed to westerners who want to see them preserved and made relevant again. I hope everyone who sees this thread feels this way, and perhaps asking good questions would be a good start, at least as important as the sweat and pain we endure to forge ourselves into something better who can show the genius of the arts to the public. Right now I don’t have answers but that’s always been the best place to start for me. Carry on sir!🙏
As usual azlaroc12, you post a comment that never fails to raise my thoughts and my sense of awareness. Amazing. I so much agree with you. There has to be a way to teach these long passed on arts, at the same time giving whom the art is passed on to the sense of confidence that they can protect themselves in a self-defense situation. I always have shown to train with the brutality that is needed because we can always tone it down, but we can never "jack it up" when needed. Now, you really have me thinking. Thank you so much for your thought-provoking post.
@@TheIronandSilk thanks man, I got to thinking about an article I read many years ago on Grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng on the technical changes he made to Xing Yi, especially around the adjustments he made to Heng Chuan, which I believe you’ve already shown. It was mentioned that since he come from a grappling art he could see structural or tactical weaknesses in Tai Chi, Xing Yi and other systems and make those changes to improve their execution. In this case he had the years of experience and pressure tested authority to change a tradition. I do not believe he did so lightly or frivolously. That I can respect. This is different from someone who may have a well meaning shortsightedness or incomplete understanding of their art who might dispose of something that may have made that art functional or may have been a bridge skill to higher levels of the art. You are fortunate to come from such a lineage through Master Chicoine. 👍
@@azlaroc12 I agree, there are a lot of people who barely were taught something and then they "change" or "modify" it (mainly because they aren't doing it correctly from the start) before they even have a grasp of what all goes into it. I have always disagreed with the Bruce Lee quote, "Absorb what is useful, discard what is not and then make it uniquely your own." I have always said to discard NOTHING. Because maybe we're not mature enough in a particular style, or technique to really understand how to make it useful. I have had techniques that I thought were insane and could never be used, only to "mature" into them and then they became favorites of mine. Lol, I've been blessed to have such a lineage. To begin as a small child in boxing, under the great Jimmy Bivens. Then step in to Praying Mantis and Judo. Next was in Shaolin through GM James Cook lineage, then Chicoine and finally through Dr. Painter's Bagua. It's been a true blessing. I am grateful.
@ yessir you speak true. Allowing the maturation process to happen is anathema to the fast food culture we live in, but it’s what the term Gong means. There’s many small details that turn out to be gems when you’re ready. And props to James Cook. I’ve never seen a Shaolin guy more fluid. He was a hero of mine when I was a young buck.
@azlaroc12 "He was a hero of mine when I was a young buck." Still a hero of mine. When Teacher and I split, out of nowhere, Cook emailed me and told me how proud of me he was. Not that I left Chicoine's school (I don't think he knew) he told how proud he was that I was sharing my knowledge. You must be from Cleveland or somewhere in Ohio. Either way, I'm glad you're here sharing your insights to whoever reads the posts.
I worked security at a truck stop years ago and witnessed a 6'5" 250lb Russian trucker get bodied by a 5'4" Chinese trucker at the pumps. The Chinese driver during questioning told me he trained in Baji Quan.
@@gharm9129 This happens sometimes, especially against an unskilled opponent. But, size and weight can equal someone with skills. I bet the Oriental fellow was Taiwanese.
Decades ago, Erle Montaigue was of the opinion that the Chinese government was defanging and homogenizing the Chinese martial arts, this may have something to do with today's weak kung fu. Maybe if you studied under a lineage that had left China decades ago, and one that stayed in country, you would get different results even if the name was the same. Lineages and branches of arts can make a difference. I have encountered this in Aikido, which is a laughing stock to most nowadays. but for me (and my former classmates) has proven it's effectiveness many times. The weapon based arts (like Xingyi and Aikido) are real martial arts, being based on weapons. Boxing and mma are sports. Lands are conquered or defended not by armies of wrestling boxers tapping each other out, but by people using weapons to kill each other. These type of arts (weapon based) look weak in the octagon because their unarmed stuff is probably based on evasion (escape to get weapon and friends) and weapon retention, instead of going rounds with the ground and pound. Combative sport however, looks just as silly when faced with weapon trained martial artists, as depicted at 4:30 in this video ua-cam.com/video/1RPiA27uC8A/v-deo.html
I think you should go into every kung fu kwoon you stumble upon and show them the error of their ways. Why not? You would be doing them a big favor educating them , right?
@tomford4180 Lol, wow! Do you think they would learn? I think that would equate to trying to get young "men" to pull up their pants. I can't seem to educate folks here on UA-cam. Why do you think it would work going into kung fu schools and educating them? Oh, I'm sorry, I called it a Kung Fu School instead of a Kung Fu Kwoon.
Doesn't work. I went to different schools to exchange pointers. Literally just sparring. At the time my style was to go low and blitz, then maintain pressure and strangle their offense. They always made excuses 'you're just brawling' and from the sidelines people would say 'you're too low' while I was piecing up their friend. Barley anyone wants to learn or wants to fight. Most people just want to feel good about themselves.
@TheIronandSilk definitely being a smart a**. If he was legit he'd already know everything i just said. Figured I'd tell him before he actually goes to a mcdojo and expects to be worshipped and gets sorely disappointed. You know how ego centric these young bucks are.
Most people don't hit things or try to hit people. And second I'd bet marketing. The schools in my country, market Kung fu as 'peaceful, personal development'. The idea of using it for fighting, is so Ludacris to the general person, that a Shotokan guy I sparred. I was using only Xingyi for a few rounds. After the round. This man thought I was doing a *branch of shotokan* Think about that.
fis-tarts, That's an interesting concept that I never thought about. You are right though, a lot of "martial" is marketed as "we are peaceful, we don't use our martial". What an oxymoron. Just the word "martial" implies combat. I believe like the saying goes, "I would rather be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war".
@kennethbautista3456 Since you want to get technical, here goes. Kung Fu is defined as a skill, any skill developed over time. Wu Shu is the actual word for martial arts (combat). This is exactly what I was talking about in the video! Chinese martial artists want to focus on this or that, "Well, technically, the hand should be here." Stop it, please. Or, not. Continue to focus on the nonsense, and I'm sure that the Chinese martial arts will gain the respect it once had.
@@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe well there goes my dumb*ss opinion. I am a Kung Fu man, all my life. But, now I know that the state of my beloved art is well and fine. Thanks!
Good video. Wing Chun stance, you are no longer fighting at the end of a narrow boat trying not to tip over. Tai Chi is the laughing stock as 80% of it is taught as "exercise" and not a martial art with few understanding the applications. There are Kung Fu that does spar and even enters tournaments, however, those tend to look like "Western" styles as a basic punch, kick, throw are what works, not a one finger punch to anything except the eye.
@@HH-vb9tw They're not called things. What does it matter what they're called? You sound exactly like one of the kung-fu people I'm referring to in the video. Thanks for proving my point.
It would not be what it is were it not for the laughter. A proper kung fu stylist will fuck you up. BJJ or MT or whatever you think is going to save your butt in the streets. There is no way technically that those sports arts can hold a candle to any art that is designed for maiming, killing asap in combat on the field. If you want to have a fighting chance against these arts, you will have to add them to your BJJ or MT, because in the field, that kind of MMA stuff is not going to hack it. I am 52 and been studying martial arts of various schools since age 13. BJJ, MT, Goshin Jitsu, Shotokan, TDK, 4 animals, Judo and ended up with Wing Chun after encountering an actual WC player who did not train to post on UA-cam. My mistake in arrogantly assuming I would wipe the floor with him via take downs and locks, chokes. My mistake and my fortune to have met an actual proper WC person. it was eye opening.
matreyia...To whom are you referring your post to? This is a Chinese martial arts channel. Most everyone here are Kung Fu people. Me personally have never done BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, TKD ect... The only martial art outside of Chinese styles has been Judo. Or are you butt hurt because I have no respect for Wing Chun? I have met some Ving Chun people that were good, but that's a few compared to the many. Just like we can cherry pick the few out of any particular style. But you take an art like Muay Thai, the few are bad ones, the many CAN defend themselves, and that ain't no joke. It used to be that way with Chinese Martial Arts. The many USED to be able to defend themselves, and there were a few Kung Fu people that were jokes. That day has long passed us young man.
@@matreyia Lol, "Clickbait"...Why would you think it's clickbait? You're supposed to be a mature man of 52. You're supposed to have been training since you were 13. You haven't noticed a decline in the quality of Chinese Arts? Lol, oh I get it, you're the clickbait just messing with me. Ok, lol.
@@TheIronandSilk Dude, I didn't even watch your video so I don't care what you think about WC. If you post a clickbait ridiculous title that implies Kung Fu in general is not respected, then you will get responses to that title sooner or later. You're in the kitchen, don't take it too emotionally if you can't accept the consequences of your social media viewership strategy. So read your title and then read my comments. My comments have ZERO to do with anything in your video since I did not watch it. And yes, there has been a decline in quality of not only Gung Fu, but all martial arts styles for the most part. Due to profit addiction and fear of losing membership numbers.
@matreyia Well, thanks for the clickbait comments, and enjoy your wing chun training. In the future, you shouldn't just post after reading the title. You never know what that book is about if you don't read it first. It might just have some gems in it.
@hungniirulfur920 Yes, I am Shuai Chiao! I love Shuai Chiao, Hsing-I, Bagua, Tai Chi, Sanda, basically all Chinese styles except Wing Chun. Wouldn't you agree that outside of Shuai Chiao and Sanda most suck? Outside of those two, most can't fight? Wouldn't you agree that these people outside of those two styles are making the Chinese martial arts a joke? Please reply back, because you seem like you love the Chinese martial arts as I do.
lol!!!! Keep ranting I love it! You know I’ll be the first to tell you when you say something wrong. With that said. Let me sit over here quietly!!! lol!!! Keep it going!
@regantlew15 Lol, why? Did I lie? What made it a terrible video? It was difficult for me to make that video and to say those things about the arts that I am so passionate about. I'm glad you commented because most probably wouldn't, but if you would tell me why it was a terrible video, I would appreciate it.
@allennoland7551 Oh my! Maybe I could break theirs first. But, if they could do that to me, I wonder what they could do to someone wasting time commenting on a video that's a waste of time? Lol, what a joke you peasants are!
First off if you call wushu, Kung Fu then that just shows how little you actually know about Kung Fu. Kung Fu only means skills and ability acquired through hard work over time. Wushu is actually the Chinese word for martial arts. Now you should probably know what actual kung fu is before you start talking about it. Second least pretty much know that all other martial arts kind of come from at least at some point in lineage to Chinese wushu. In fact the earliest translations of the word karate meant Chinese hands not empty hands.
@@TheIronandSilk In Chinese, the term kung fu refers to any skill that is acquired through learning or practice. It is a compound word composed of the words 功 (gōng) meaning "work", "achievement", or "merit", and 夫 (fū) which is a particle or nominal suffix with diverse meanings. Wushu literally means "martial art".
@USARMY1682 Please do some research. I personally don't care what it's called. I usually just say "Chinese Martial Arts." Whatever, dude, you want to come on here like you've got knowledge, look it up. I dare you, Google something. As far as the Chinese Martial Arts goes, I know the knowledge that I have. Watch some videos or something. Just you arguing about this video tells me that you're one of the kung-fu people that I'm speaking of.
I don't know if it's different in the US but I do Lau Gar kung fu here in the UK and we spar and evolve (although there is still a big traditional element), we won loads of kickboxing tournaments in the 70's, 80's and 90's - basically before MMA became big. In fact, in MMA, MVP is a former Lau Gar practitioner I believe.
@notgodzod There's MVP, Kevin Holland, "Big Country" Roy Nelson is a kung-fu guy. You mentioned the 70's, 80's and 90's, I know the Chinese styles were definitely respected in the 70's and 80's.
Is the school still open? And please don't get me wrong, there's always the few. I replied to someone else saying, there's always a few, but the majority isn't there anymore. But, take a Muay Thai school. All over the globe, the majority can fight. We've lost our way in the Chinese martial arts. Thanks for the comment.
@@TheIronandSilk Thanks for replying! Yes the school is still - I'm the instructor! Though to be honest it's just a very small class now, and more for families and hobbyists rather than full on fighters. But there are also other Lau Gar clubs all over the country, I assume they still train some decent fighters.
I take your point though - Muay Thai school produce fighters consistently, whereas kung fu and karate schools often don't. I think, as I get older, I have come to enjoy the art form of kung fu more - but I get that if this is the main focus then the less appropriate it becomes to call it a martial art, as opposed to, say, a movement art.
Thanks again for the vid and the for the interesting take on things.
@@notgodzod Thanks for the conversation. May your school flourish. I wish you and your students much success. It sounds like they have one of the good kung-fu teachers out there.
I received a lot of hate because of this video, so I thank you so much for the commonsense discussion.
@@notgodzod this is a big ole whiff of bullshido my friend.
@@USARMY1682 What is - what I said or what @theironandsilk said, or both?
My thoughts from researching xingyi for about 20 some odd years: 1. Xingyi like almost all Chinese chuan fa systems was developed and maintained during an era where competitive combat sports was not really a big thing like it was in the West, therefore there wasn't a lot of "field tested research" to identify what worked and what needed to be modified. 2. As a result, pretty much all the teachers never actually fought, so the techniques were developed in an isolated echo-chamber of theoretics instead of real world practical application. 3. Because of 1 and 2, there are known, proven effective techniques that never made it into the average xingyi curriculum (like the basic hook punch, which wasn't really developed until around the early 20th century by western boxers doing real world research in the ring). 4. Most Chinese martial arts have an undue emphasis on routines ("forms" or what westerners like to call "kata"). As Hai Yang points out on his internal martial arts channel, practice of routines or "forms" should only take a few minutes per training session, the bulk of the time should be spent on practicing single movement techniques and martial applications of said techniques. Also, routines were developed to include movements that weren't "fighting" techniques, but flexibility and mobility and strengthening movements, basically a type of calisthenics workout. But people think those movements are "fighting techniques" and try to make the unworkable work. Also, pretty much all routines include movements developed strictly for public performance and aesthetic reasons. Public "demonstrations" (martial arts street operas) were a big thing in the 1800s in China, and were basically kung fu theater before motion pictures were invented. 5. Too many are too conservative, thus the idea of taking the actual techniques that work (basic kickboxing and grappling) and applying known xingyi principles to them is considered anathema and heretical by many in the traditional martial arts community. Therefore xingyi fails to evolve the way boxing, kickboxing, and even things like kyokushin and muay thai have evolved. 6. Too many are still caught up in "woo-woo" chi-power "internal means no muscle power" nonsense. Some of the early xingyi manuals do contain obvious propaganda and marketing tactics regarding how they spoke of "external kung fu", but the really old stuff talks about how "external kung fu" is the kind of fancy flashy street performance kung fu, whereas "internal kung fu" is the real stuff where the kung fu isn't "empty" or lacking in real application and ability. Thus it seems the original idea about "internal vs external" had more to do with "external is outward appearance only and internal is solid kung fu that works". But still too many want to be the 80 year old park taichi guy beating up 20 year old mma fighters, and it just ain't happening.
Majority of what you said is wrong. Hsing I was created during the warring period and used for the revolution and early military of PRC.
Also wrong on boxing, the standard 10 punches been in it since at least the Greek imperial Era plus many more methods.
The problem is no practice no sparring no fighting. You're not going to fight if all you do is taebo even though it has boxing in it.
@@gharm9129 What we know of as "the hook" in boxing was introduced by Jack Broughton around 1740. And, it wasn't quite what is now considered a "proper hook", it was a bit longer. There is no "continued direct lineage" from ancient Greek or Egyptian pugilists to today. Boxing before Queensbury Rules was bareknuckle, with a long, lower guard, and mostly straight punches, with power shots to the body not the head being the norm. Also palm strikes, trips, grappling etc were included. Xingyi is ACTUALLY documented to being a definite thing in the late 18th/early 19th century. Stories about Marshal Yueh Fei are just that, and if you believe them then you would believe dozens of different kung fu styles were invented by him. The actual historical documentation is pretty clear though, it was pretty much Li Luoneng who developed Xingyiquan from an older style of xinyiquan (aka liu he xinyiquan or xinyi liu he quan practiced by the Dai family). The Dai family claimed to have got their xinyi (not xinGyi, but xinyi, no "g") from Ji Longfeng (aka Ji Jike) who called it "liu he quan". So the actual historical documentation for xingyi dates to the early 19th century. It was used as a basis for the early 20th century Kuomintang's military hand to hand combat training, and was apparently the preferred style that was going to be used for the unified kuoshu system they were developing, but that doesn't mean most of it wasn't being taught in an impractical manner. The US Army taught a basic Shotokan style karate as "military combatives" in the 60s and early 70s, and it was completely useless according to just about every Vietnam vet I have talked to (including my dad). However, the ROK's taekwondo was - according to him and them - something to be feared.
Also, you are absolutely correct about the lack of sparring. Many kung fu stylists claim their art is too deadly for sparring or competition, even though their arts all contain histories of the founders and early masters engaging in and winning numerous competitions and tournaments with their style! Sadly, such excuses for lack of actual martial ability and skill are all too common in the "traditional martial arts" world. I am not even sure why that is. Back when I was a kid in the late 70s doing "American Karate" (taekwondo) everybody from the 5 year olds up to the adults were learning because they wanted to be able to fight, whether for self defense or competition or (like me) just to be able to whip butt and not be bullied by neighborhood punks. A lot of traditional martial arts though have attracted all the wrong types of people the last 30 years or so. Either old-man park tai chi stylists, or larpers wanting to spit chi balls out their hind end. At least "cardio kickboxing" is honest about what it's doing lol.
athenry, you bring up a lot of points. Hsing-I, being a major love in my life. I have been able to "modify" it, if you will, to the point that I am very comfortable with my Hsing-I in self-defense. After all, Hsing-I has been modified, for they no longer hold a spear to fight with.
I just can't understand what makes the practitioners continue to hold their hands in a position as though they're holding a spear.
As far as the Tai Chi people not being able to hold their own against a MMA person, most, and I do mean most, Tai Chi "masters" aren't martial artists.
These "Tai Chi people" are simply practitioners that become "teachers" without any knowledge of the martial aspects of Tai Chi Chuan. Thank you so much for your comment as it was enjoyable to read. As far as the Hsing-I, I see the history a little different. Thanks again!
@@gharm9129 My man! Absolutely correct as far as I know on Hsing-I. "The problem is, no practice, no sparring, no fighting." It doesn't get any simpler than that! Thanks for the great comment.
There's plenty of great Sanda fighters and other sport fighters who also practice traditional.
The problem is when people who do not train for sport or serious combat, think they can somehow fight at that level of intensity.
It's a matter of conditioning and training to actually fight hard. And of course sparring at the appropriate level.
Just like any sport. Knowing how to play with friends doesn't mean we will be able to compete in the Olympics or professional.
@Liminal_Life Very good points. I'm a Chinese martial artist all my life. All I'm saying is that it's commonly known throughout all martial arts. Most kung-fu practitioners can't really defend themselves.
It wasn't this way once upon a time
Don't get me wrong. I know the Chinese martial arts to be the very best for fighting and for health. I don't know of any other martial arts that even come close to that balance.
It's just shameful what it has come to, that's all.
I think that Asian martial arts in general suffer from a stereotype that says they’re all hokey parlor tricks made of smoke and mirrors, with the Chinese arts taking the biggest hit. You ask a really important question here Steve and it’s a big question with a lot of answers. Lack of sparring yep, missing DNA in the transmission of the art that by design is hierarchical is a problem if you’re missing certain skills too. Sometimes I wonder too about what the true place is for an art that is no longer in the cultural context of it original transmission or creation, and about what modernization really means. Your example of Shuai Chiao is a good one and illustrates what I’m talking about here. In the West we usually talk about improving along the lines of efficiency, shortened time lines, optimization and pressure testing, it’s tough when you begin to look at the limitations of short cuts as well as the benefits. These arts are not the product of Western thinking, and I’ve always felt that caution ought be used when we cut what we see as inessential, in our results oriented rush to be effective. As these arts die out, it appears that the mantle is being passed to westerners who want to see them preserved and made relevant again. I hope everyone who sees this thread feels this way, and perhaps asking good questions would be a good start, at least as important as the sweat and pain we endure to forge ourselves into something better who can show the genius of the arts to the public. Right now I don’t have answers but that’s always been the best place to start for me. Carry on sir!🙏
As usual azlaroc12, you post a comment that never fails to raise my thoughts and my sense of awareness. Amazing. I so much agree with you. There has to be a way to teach these long passed on arts, at the same time giving whom the art is passed on to the sense of confidence that they can protect themselves in a self-defense situation.
I always have shown to train with the brutality that is needed because we can always tone it down, but we can never "jack it up" when needed.
Now, you really have me thinking. Thank you so much for your thought-provoking post.
@@TheIronandSilk thanks man, I got to thinking about an article I read many years ago on Grandmaster Chang Tung Sheng on the technical changes he made to Xing Yi, especially around the adjustments he made to Heng Chuan, which I believe you’ve already shown. It was mentioned that since he come from a grappling art he could see structural or tactical weaknesses in Tai Chi, Xing Yi and other systems and make those changes to improve their execution. In this case he had the years of experience and pressure tested authority to change a tradition. I do not believe he did so lightly or frivolously. That I can respect. This is different from someone who may have a well meaning shortsightedness or incomplete understanding of their art who might dispose of something that may have made that art functional or may have been a bridge skill to higher levels of the art. You are fortunate to come from such a lineage through Master Chicoine. 👍
@@azlaroc12 I agree, there are a lot of people who barely were taught something and then they "change" or "modify" it (mainly because they aren't doing it correctly from the start) before they even have a grasp of what all goes into it.
I have always disagreed with the Bruce Lee quote, "Absorb what is useful, discard what is not and then make it uniquely your own."
I have always said to discard NOTHING. Because maybe we're not mature enough in a particular style, or technique to really understand how to make it useful. I have had techniques that I thought were insane and could never be used, only to "mature" into them and then they became favorites of mine.
Lol, I've been blessed to have such a lineage. To begin as a small child in boxing, under the great Jimmy Bivens. Then step in to Praying Mantis and Judo. Next was in Shaolin through GM James Cook lineage, then Chicoine and finally through Dr. Painter's Bagua. It's been a true blessing. I am grateful.
@ yessir you speak true. Allowing the maturation process to happen is anathema to the fast food culture we live in, but it’s what the term Gong means. There’s many small details that turn out to be gems when you’re ready. And props to James Cook. I’ve never seen a Shaolin guy more fluid. He was a hero of mine when I was a young buck.
@azlaroc12 "He was a hero of mine when I was a young buck." Still a hero of mine. When Teacher and I split, out of nowhere, Cook emailed me and told me how proud of me he was. Not that I left Chicoine's school (I don't think he knew) he told how proud he was that I was sharing my knowledge.
You must be from Cleveland or somewhere in Ohio. Either way, I'm glad you're here sharing your insights to whoever reads the posts.
Hi brother. it's only a joke till they run into someone that knows Kung Fu then it's not so funny.
I worked security at a truck stop years ago and witnessed a 6'5" 250lb Russian trucker get bodied by a 5'4" Chinese trucker at the pumps. The Chinese driver during questioning told me he trained in Baji Quan.
@@usmcsemperfi7249 Sometimes, just not often enough for me, lol.
@@gharm9129 This happens sometimes, especially against an unskilled opponent. But, size and weight can equal someone with skills. I bet the Oriental fellow was Taiwanese.
@@TheIronandSilk Logic dictates that two persons, same style, same skill levels, the bigger person has a better chance at victory.
@@gharm9129 Baji Quan is highly destructive if the person actually knows what he/she is doing. Same with Pak Mei, S. Mantis, N. Mantis etc...
A guy standing in a field talking...great video.
@@Will-Max Watch another video or wait until Thursday for the next one.
Decades ago, Erle Montaigue was of the opinion that the Chinese government was defanging and homogenizing the Chinese martial arts, this may have something to do with today's weak kung fu. Maybe if you studied under a lineage that had left China decades ago, and one that stayed in country, you would get different results even if the name was the same. Lineages and branches of arts can make a difference. I have encountered this in Aikido, which is a laughing stock to most nowadays. but for me (and my former classmates) has proven it's effectiveness many times. The weapon based arts (like Xingyi and Aikido) are real martial arts, being based on weapons. Boxing and mma are sports. Lands are conquered or defended not by armies of wrestling boxers tapping each other out, but by people using weapons to kill each other. These type of arts (weapon based) look weak in the octagon because their unarmed stuff is probably based on evasion (escape to get weapon and friends) and weapon retention, instead of going rounds with the ground and pound. Combative sport however, looks just as silly when faced with weapon trained martial artists, as depicted at 4:30 in this video ua-cam.com/video/1RPiA27uC8A/v-deo.html
I think you should go into every kung fu kwoon you stumble upon and show them the error of their ways. Why not? You would be doing them a big favor educating them , right?
@tomford4180 Lol, wow! Do you think they would learn? I think that would equate to trying to get young "men" to pull up their pants.
I can't seem to educate folks here on UA-cam. Why do you think it would work going into kung fu schools and educating them? Oh, I'm sorry, I called it a Kung Fu School instead of a Kung Fu Kwoon.
Doesn't work. I went to different schools to exchange pointers. Literally just sparring.
At the time my style was to go low and blitz, then maintain pressure and strangle their offense.
They always made excuses 'you're just brawling' and from the sidelines people would say 'you're too low' while I was piecing up their friend.
Barley anyone wants to learn or wants to fight. Most people just want to feel good about themselves.
@@championboy4782 I think this tomford was just being a smart*ss. But I love your comment!
@tomford4180 Yes, you're correct. Thank you.
@TheIronandSilk definitely being a smart a**. If he was legit he'd already know everything i just said.
Figured I'd tell him before he actually goes to a mcdojo and expects to be worshipped and gets sorely disappointed. You know how ego centric these young bucks are.
Oh! A woman invented that style! 😂
davidgagnon, Lol, so true!
Most people don't hit things or try to hit people.
And second
I'd bet marketing.
The schools in my country, market Kung fu as 'peaceful, personal development'. The idea of using it for fighting, is so Ludacris to the general person, that a Shotokan guy I sparred. I was using only Xingyi for a few rounds.
After the round. This man thought I was doing a *branch of shotokan*
Think about that.
fis-tarts, That's an interesting concept that I never thought about. You are right though, a lot of "martial" is marketed as "we are peaceful, we don't use our martial".
What an oxymoron. Just the word "martial" implies combat. I believe like the saying goes, "I would rather be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener in a war".
Traditional kung fu is a practical application . Wu shu is a art . Lets not say kung fu in generall because there is real application and art form .
@kennethbautista3456 Since you want to get technical, here goes. Kung Fu is defined as a skill, any skill developed over time. Wu Shu is the actual word for martial arts (combat). This is exactly what I was talking about in the video!
Chinese martial artists want to focus on this or that, "Well, technically, the hand should be here." Stop it, please. Or, not. Continue to focus on the nonsense, and I'm sure that the Chinese martial arts will gain the respect it once had.
Then you should go and challenge some of them monks.
@@georgehumpherys8481 Great idea humpty hump. Thank you!
Recently kungfu beat mma, it's on video. If someone says something and titles it pn video, it's just an opinion. Nor a known fact.
@@CharlesBetancourt-iq9oe well there goes my dumb*ss opinion. I am a Kung Fu man, all my life. But, now I know that the state of my beloved art is well and fine. Thanks!
Good video. Wing Chun stance, you are no longer fighting at the end of a narrow boat trying not to tip over. Tai Chi is the laughing stock as 80% of it is taught as "exercise" and not a martial art with few understanding the applications. There are Kung Fu that does spar and even enters tournaments, however, those tend to look like "Western" styles as a basic punch, kick, throw are what works, not a one finger punch to anything except the eye.
@CanadaFree-ce9jn Excellent post! I call the Kung Fu ones that spar and go to tournaments, glorified karateka. Thanks for your comments.
Take Ones Dough…..
williamsmith, Lol, I liked that too!
This fool lost all credibility when he said the more you progress you use more "things" lol its not called things lmao
@@HH-vb9tw They're not called things. What does it matter what they're called? You sound exactly like one of the kung-fu people I'm referring to in the video. Thanks for proving my point.
There is wu shu and there is kung fu don't get it twisted kung fu is a real marital art .
@@kennethbautista3456 OMG. I should just copy and paste my reply to your other comment.
It would not be what it is were it not for the laughter. A proper kung fu stylist will fuck you up. BJJ or MT or whatever you think is going to save your butt in the streets. There is no way technically that those sports arts can hold a candle to any art that is designed for maiming, killing asap in combat on the field. If you want to have a fighting chance against these arts, you will have to add them to your BJJ or MT, because in the field, that kind of MMA stuff is not going to hack it. I am 52 and been studying martial arts of various schools since age 13. BJJ, MT, Goshin Jitsu, Shotokan, TDK, 4 animals, Judo and ended up with Wing Chun after encountering an actual WC player who did not train to post on UA-cam. My mistake in arrogantly assuming I would wipe the floor with him via take downs and locks, chokes. My mistake and my fortune to have met an actual proper WC person. it was eye opening.
matreyia...To whom are you referring your post to? This is a Chinese martial arts channel. Most everyone here are Kung Fu people. Me personally have never done BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, TKD ect... The only martial art outside of Chinese styles has been Judo.
Or are you butt hurt because I have no respect for Wing Chun? I have met some Ving Chun people that were good, but that's a few compared to the many. Just like we can cherry pick the few out of any particular style.
But you take an art like Muay Thai, the few are bad ones, the many CAN defend themselves, and that ain't no joke. It used to be that way with Chinese Martial Arts. The many USED to be able to defend themselves, and there were a few Kung Fu people that were jokes. That day has long passed us young man.
@@TheIronandSilk - To whom am I talking to? I'm talking to the click bait title.
@@matreyia Lol, "Clickbait"...Why would you think it's clickbait? You're supposed to be a mature man of 52. You're supposed to have been training since you were 13. You haven't noticed a decline in the quality of Chinese Arts? Lol, oh I get it, you're the clickbait just messing with me. Ok, lol.
@@TheIronandSilk Dude, I didn't even watch your video so I don't care what you think about WC. If you post a clickbait ridiculous title that implies Kung Fu in general is not respected, then you will get responses to that title sooner or later. You're in the kitchen, don't take it too emotionally if you can't accept the consequences of your social media viewership strategy.
So read your title and then read my comments. My comments have ZERO to do with anything in your video since I did not watch it.
And yes, there has been a decline in quality of not only Gung Fu, but all martial arts styles for the most part. Due to profit addiction and fear of losing membership numbers.
@matreyia Well, thanks for the clickbait comments, and enjoy your wing chun training. In the future, you shouldn't just post after reading the title. You never know what that book is about if you don't read it first. It might just have some gems in it.
The you never heard of shuai jiao and sanda
@hungniirulfur920 Yes, I am Shuai Chiao! I love Shuai Chiao, Hsing-I, Bagua, Tai Chi, Sanda, basically all Chinese styles except Wing Chun. Wouldn't you agree that outside of Shuai Chiao and Sanda most suck? Outside of those two, most can't fight? Wouldn't you agree that these people outside of those two styles are making the Chinese martial arts a joke? Please reply back, because you seem like you love the Chinese martial arts as I do.
lol!!!! Keep ranting I love it! You know I’ll be the first to tell you when you say something wrong. With that said. Let me sit over here quietly!!! lol!!! Keep it going!
@@whpierce3 I thought about you when I was replying.
🙂👍🏽
Terrible video
@regantlew15 Lol, why? Did I lie? What made it a terrible video? It was difficult for me to make that video and to say those things about the arts that I am so passionate about. I'm glad you commented because most probably wouldn't, but if you would tell me why it was a terrible video, I would appreciate it.
Unless your Chinese.
@DenshaOtoko2 Well, we see thanks to the internet, kung-fu people getting beat up all the time in China by boxers, mma people.
Wasting time bitching. There are southern arts learned by karate masters that could break your bones!
@allennoland7551 Oh my! Maybe I could break theirs first. But, if they could do that to me, I wonder what they could do to someone wasting time commenting on a video that's a waste of time? Lol, what a joke you peasants are!
First off if you call wushu, Kung Fu then that just shows how little you actually know about Kung Fu. Kung Fu only means skills and ability acquired through hard work over time. Wushu is actually the Chinese word for martial arts.
Now you should probably know what actual kung fu is before you start talking about it.
Second least pretty much know that all other martial arts kind of come from at least at some point in lineage to Chinese wushu. In fact the earliest translations of the word karate meant Chinese hands not empty hands.
@@USARMY1682 Hahaha ha, omg!!
@@TheIronandSilk "The beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms." - Socrates
@@TheIronandSilk
In Chinese, the term kung fu refers to any skill that is acquired through learning or practice. It is a compound word composed of the words 功 (gōng) meaning "work", "achievement", or "merit", and 夫 (fū) which is a particle or nominal suffix with diverse meanings. Wushu literally means "martial art".
Should look up Chinese sanda for the "non sparring" check out the sanda national team.
@USARMY1682 Please do some research. I personally don't care what it's called. I usually just say "Chinese Martial Arts." Whatever, dude, you want to come on here like you've got knowledge, look it up. I dare you, Google something. As far as the Chinese Martial Arts goes, I know the knowledge that I have. Watch some videos or something. Just you arguing about this video tells me that you're one of the kung-fu people that I'm speaking of.