WATCH MORE - Another female trope that could be called "difficult" is the Neurotic Type A Woman. Here's our TAKE: ua-cam.com/video/5Aq9b2XfrWY/v-deo.html
It is easy to deal with difficult men, but its impossible to deal with a difficult woman as she will accuse a man of being abusive even if she gets physical
@@jzwalz51robin45Most men don’t deal with difficult men ESPECIALLY if they think the difficult man has money or is successful or powerful. They just let them keep being other people’s problem until they just HAVE to do something because it gets uncomfortable for THEM. Women get “difficult” label without even being difficult sometimes.
@@tf-okWhat do you define men’s needs? It’s mostly the same. On top of those I would add “safety” as a very woman centric need that most men don’t really prioritise for themselves.
@@DesiCat789 No, men either argue back or turn to physical fighting. Women who are difficult just become other people's problems because they just argue using feelings instead of logic, and it cannot get physical because they will call the police.
I loved that line in Scandal so much. "I am not the girl the guy gets at the end of the movie. I am not a fantasy. You want me? EARN ME." So freaking powerful.
Honestly, I never saw Olivia as difficult. I saw her as aspirational. She was amazing at her job and held herself to a high standard- even when the POTUS wanted her, she made him work for it. She was a bad ass.
I don't know the context of the scene as I don't watch the show but I don't like the 'EARN ME' part. It's still paralleling to her has something to obtain, as a reward for effort. It irks me.
@@thisiskitta He wanted his cake and to eat it too. She was setting boundaries and telling him to be a better partner first before expecting her attention and affection. The situation is rather irksome as he is cheating on his wife. I never much liked him, but Olivia is an excellent character and scandal was a brilliant show.
@@thisiskittaI understand you, but this is on Olivia Pope, if she (that is a fictional character) or a real world woman wants to be obtained by a man, that's their lives, I wouldn't use her sentence too, becouse it implys that after a man counquer my heart, he can walk all over me, but some women enjoy that.
The guy in the movie pretty much gets the girl because he "earned" her. In "Aladdin" Jasmine says "I am not a prize to be won." Aladdin pretty much wins her and she is his prize, which is just the way she likes it. She is the prize and the carny. Olivia Pope can act like that because she is beautiful. Women who act like that need to be beautiful and they need to understand that they don't deserve male friendship.
My grandfather called my mom (his daughter in law) called my mother difficult when she demanded that his son get a job when she was working double shifts while 8 months pregnant. A difficult woman is often (not always, but often) just a woman who refuses to be treated like sh*t by men who refuse to step up.
It was brief, but I'm glad black women were mentioned in this take. As stated, the "difficult woman" stereotype, as well as the "angry black woman" stereotypes are still a very real issue for us. While feminism has made strides for most women, it hasn't been as big of a boon to woman of color.
Feminism has no appeal to black women imo. It strives for equality of the sexes, our natural counterpart is our biggest enemy. It strives to give women another choice other than a traditional lifestyle, meanwhile black women are the most employed of our race and more likely to raise their children alone; theres rarely a choice in the black community for a black woman to live a different life if they are suppose to also literally raise and support the men of our own race. That's not feminism, thats enslavement by our own men.
It doesn't help that we have a label like "mean girl". It suggests that girls and women are supposed to always be likable or not have any negative personality traits. It's very narrow.
RICH SINGLE AUNT TROPE! ❤ and how it changed from being a failure to being an inspiration for new generation of women! Before it was almost a threat, now it is celebrated! ❤ it really shows how times changed
I can't remember her name but in a season of Big Mouth one of the characters has a single, rich auntie who loves hanging around her family and giving sound wisdom to her nephew. When it's time for her to leave she silently takes off to parts unknown to do more rich auntie stuff. But she's so happy and fulfilled, she's not the least bit sad.
Thank you for mentioning black women being stereotyped as more “ difficult “ and “ angry “. I noticed that anytime I stood up for myself I was considered the “ angry black woman “ even when people were racist and sexist to me. I was considered the bad girl just because I defended myself. I feel like society uses this stereotype to silence black women.
I think all women at some point in their life have been deemed as difficult but I also think that sometimes as women or people we should express anger or disappointment in a healthy manner. However, a lot of narcissistic men wants to make the women like she’s the villain for expressing anger even in a healthy way and make himself look like he’s the victim. I also think that, sometimes not everything should be taken personally because of past experience. Because sometimes people do or say things out of habit and not out of spite. For example, I remember when I trying to help give my seat to a service dog and look for another seat but when the flight attendant told me that there’s no other seats I was disappointed and according to her I rolled my eyes. Maybe I did because that’s I express disappointment. However, the flight attendant who was a bit dark skin took it personally that I was rolling my eyes. But the problem is that I instantly knew that somehow she felt personally offended even though it was just an facial expression that is normal my culture. So I think that everyone needs to heal because we can’t take everything personally unless you see a suspicious pattern that involves you. And even than, you should confront the situation with empathy and open communication.
Tell me you only hear what you want to hear without telling me. Heck the current show Robyn Hood shows how their bum dad left them and mom has to do everything. What I have personally experienced is women want to hear "oh I appreciate you for the food you cook" but I never hear fathers say "Thank me for the money I earn"
@@edstringer1138I had to pause bc of this comment too. Fictional women like Olivia Pope and Amy from Beef literally play antagonistic roles at points, and it’s so far removed from the Mary Sue trope 😭
Mary sue means nothing anymore, it's just thrown around towards any female character thats skilled, competent or just have any arbitrary positive quality that isn't stereotypical just because they are. And dares to brush the poison ivy of self wankage that men have been guilty of since centuries. Oooor female characters that are meanie weenies but doesn't get punished by burning like the salem witch trials or go through the 44 days of hell. Quite an exaggeration ik but you get the gist of it.
The first women from Hollywood that immediately come to mind due to this label are Meghan Fox and Katherine Heigl. Both suffered immensely simply for being themselves and standing up to the sexist Assholes in the industry. I'm glad both had their redemption.
It didn’t help that Katherine Heigl would later executive-produce and star in “The Ugly Truth”, which is just as misogynistic as “Knocked Up”. Yet she never condemned “The Ugly Truth” for being sexist in interviews. It just makes Katherine Heigl look hypocritical and performative. Why does “The Ugly Truth” get a pass for its sexism, but “Knocked Up” doesn’t?
The original "difficult woman" in the Western tradition has got to be Eleanor of Aquitaine (played perfectly by that other "difficult woman", Katherine Hepburn in "A Lion in Winter"). A true hero(ine) who wasn't a fictional character and broke every conceivable taboo in the Middle Ages...
Followed by Isabella of France, the She-wolf. Also don't forget Empress Matilda (Maud), who was rejected as Queen Regnant because she was a woman and regarded as extremely difficult, even though she was the rightful heir.
As an autistic woman who struggled with people-pleasing in the past, it feels great to not feel obliged to attent to others' needs over your own all the time. To oblivion with any Patriarchy wanting it to feel easy for themselves to treat women as mere second class citizens without consequences.
Times like this make me appreciate characters like Diane from Parks and Rec who, despite being a supporting character, is never berated or dismissed as "difficult," with even her apology being deemed unnecessary when meeting Ron.
I love this analysis it highlights that so much really hasn't changed when It comes to female representation on screen and that women who assert themselves or express their needs are still victims misogynistic attacks which directly translates into real life.
Let's be more specific: The censorious land manatees like Lindy West, and the preferred pronoun using, trigger warning loving loons who are shouting down speakers on campuses across the nation become "victims" of attack, when they do everything in their power to constrict the speech and behavior of all the rest of us mere mortals. This isn't just exclusive to women though. Beer bellied keyboard warriors like Paul Elam and pathetic neckbeards like Carl Benjamin also get targeted for drubbing, when they start screeching "Blue Pill/Cuck/Simp", the minute anyone expresses a thought which runs even mildly contrary to one of their own
I’m a “difficult woman”. Took me forty years to realize I’m not the issue, it’s the expectations placed upon me by society and others. Can’t make everyone happy, so I work on making sure I’m taking good care of myself.
I'm rewatching Mad Men, and it boggles my mind how people like Don. I like him as a character, but he is a terrible husband, father and all-round person. Megan's career in acting is finally taking off, and all he can do is shit all over it.
Also that at various points by characters and the fandom: Betty, Sally, Megan, Peggy, and Joan (as a partner) are deemed difficult. Like when Joan was a bully to the secretaries, men adored her but as soon as she turns 5 percent of that energy to the men in their new company (honestly she was stern at worst) is when Joan starts getting humiliated
People like Deadpool too and he is a mass murd3r3r psycho. There is a difference between a well written character who is an @sshole and a character whose entire point is to show "women can be strong too". Why is women doing anything outside of motherhood shown as an achievement? If you want to strive for equality normalise it don't celebrate it
This is not true the culture doesn't admire the mens attitude but the accomplishments because it is attractive. Anybody whose had a difficult male boss doesn't cherish the experience. It just so happens being successful is not a common attraction trigger for men like it is for women
I believe that I recently was lapeled the difficult (black women). The funny thing is I work in an office full of black women and only one male (our supervisor). I go out of my way to be respectful. But , the minute, I get upset that something was not done correctly. I have a co-worker who calls, my work-from-home boss, on me. This video gave me a clue as to why. We are conditioned to think that a woman who speaks up is a woman who is on the attack or controlling. The truth is that it is very hard to be nice all the time and that cute "oh I did know" BS does not work on me. Fix it. Thank you for reading my rant.
I really appreciate the comment about how even with all the growth against the "difficult women" trope... it hasn't necessarily reached black women. Truly, there's a lot more growth to be had on that front before most black women can fell like they can step into expressing themselves fully without being assumed as difficult.
To be fair to “Working Girl,” Sigourney Weaver actually was a villainous character who did unethical things to get ahead and stole her secretary’s ideas. It’s not just the contrasting level of femininity of the two but her actions that make her the villain.
I feel you guys should have spoke of "Difficult Women" in True Crime, like the treatment of victims like Betty Gore and Elana Steinberg, who were vilified while their murderers (one of whom was the "Perfect Housewife") got to walk. Speaking of NHIE, can ya'll do a video on Cousins and Mother In Laws in media?
I have to argue against this highly selective take on Katherine in Working Girl. Katherine isn't "difficult" because no one around her has had any complaints about her until the end of the movie, when she's exposed. She always knew how to look good and innocent in front of the right people. The lesson Tess learns about Katherine is that it's not just her gender that's hindering her in this sexist world, but also her social status. When Katherine first appears, she is not meant to repulse us. We laugh at her, sure, but it's because of her very privileged ways and lack of self awareness about it ("I'd love to help, but the quarterback can't be seen passing out the Gatorade."). But to Tess: she's a Godsend. Tess has just come from a stream of male bosses who treat her like meat to be traded. She meets Katherine and thinks she's found someone who respects her and treats her like an equal (we the audience know better, of course). And then Tess has the rug pulled out from under her when she realizes Katherine is actually worse than many of her former bosses. Katherine says one thing, then does another. The positives about Katherine are that she knows how to maneuver the male-dominated workforce while still maintaining her feminine characteristics, so no one suspects her. She's clever that way. And she does give Tess good advice at the beginning (even if she thinks of Tess as part of some Big Sister/Little Sister program). But she's also insanely privileged. She comes from wealth and, therefore, has had every connection and opportunity handed to her and she never once contemplated if she deserved any of it. So when Tess comes up with a good idea Katherine takes it because, in her mind, why shouldn't she? "Why" does Katherine throw Tess under the bus? Because she can. Because she thinks it's her right, as someone who has gotten this far, to keep on going. Tess, to Katherine, is expendable. Katherine isn't "difficult." She's pompous, entitled and elitist. And i loooooooove her. She's insanely quotable.
I appreciate the bravery of strongly calling out sexism on the internet. For that alone this channel deserves an award. This channel should do a whole review of the final season of GoT’s sexism. From power Mad Dany, to Sansa saying r*pe made her a stronger person, to Cersei being made into a side character. Heck only one woman is even on the ruling council. The final GoT season is still the most misogynistic thing I’ve ever personally watched from start to finish and completely destroyed the legacy of the show. To the point where people never bring up the most popular show of the 2010s.
I've always drummed to my own beat and refuse to be "nice" as its a false facade. I've been treated with hostility and suspicion in the past by my own generation. Younger generations not so much.
If you are not being nice just for the sake of it then you are the problem. I would rather be nice and not hurt people as much as possible. Specially people I don't have to deal with regularly
This is overwhelming in the Diana Ross movie Mahogney. By the end, she is defeated by the Big Bad World she dared venture into. The ending is HORRIBLE, but I saw this when I was a child and I felt better that Diana's character got to get "Home" to where she belonged with a MAN to show her true purpose... SUPPORT HIM AND HIS ASPIRATIONS...I love the movie, but now it just hurts to watch....
Stop glorifying bad behavior in women and call it human choices! It is not ok to be rude, manipulative and domineering. Goodness and kindness are choices you make based on strength. Sisterhood does not exist as little as brotherhood. This tv show AJLT "continuation" of SATC is a Black Mirror of a reality that we don't want to see behind the facade. Carrie is a fictional character who represents the worst friend you can have as a woman! She takes and takes and then throws away or wastes things and people like nothing. It doesn't pay off to be like Carrie, it turns out. You end up on a beach with a drink in your hand with a "girlfriend" in the same situation that she doesn't even like or respect. You realize that you have become old and irrelevant. The series also addresses another topic that receives a lot of attention in the media. Belonging to a certain group or community is not a guarantee of success in the profession or private life. You have to work as hard as everyone else to get where you want to go if even that is enough! I am referring to Che, another difficult woman!! 😁🤣😅😀
Exactly this channel a lot of times is just the mirror image of the things they critique because they rightly criticize society for justifying male misbehavior then do the same with female dysfunction
They did Jan dirty in the later seasons. But it actually seems like Michael made her go crazy. Still, the early season Jan was a perfect competent female boss any corporate environment would like to have. It's sad that the writers did her dirty to stereotype her character
I would looooove to see a video about The Americans. I absolutlely loved Elizabeth character, it was so empowering watching a woman like her on the screen.
I’ve worked a with a lot of difficult people and it wasn’t because they were putting themselves first and anything to do with self serving behaviour. Most of them were just assholes or completely dumbasses.
my mom was not diifficult, she knew the realities of life God rest her soul. However she went some places where I could not go. Ma is my hero. my Pops is too. Where's the love? lLove them no mater what. thank you oh yes I'mtheir son.
This video essay miss quite a big mark about how hollywood is , increasingly enabling and indulgent with difficult women wrecking havoc in their entourage and community, without any consequences or ability. Preventing them from being any sort of hero-journey protagonist, whatsoever. First, the Take video's are ALWAYS good, I swear. Even this one. But on this specific topic (of fictional Difficult women character), the YT channel's bias do show up quite much in my taste. Im obviously not as cultured about former shows discussed from the 1920's and early 2000's. But I do happen to know Sex and The city (Carrie Bradshaw), Homeland (Carrie M.), The American (Elizabeth) and NHIE (Devi). And while these difficult characters grow up and are allowed mistakes...they're allowed MANY severe mistake that OTHER ppl are paying a price for. Mistakes and choices that no one in their right mind would make. Devi literally ruin her romantic interest life and sport carreer perspective. Carrie Bradshaw breaks heart after heart in a careless solipsistic fashion and Elizabeth gets her husband beaten up, captured, tortured and such (and other agents straight up killed) on multiple occasions. Only Carrie M (homeland) gets a sort of pass because circumstances (she paranoid but turns out there DO is a conspiracy going on). One critical modern addition would be season 2 Moiraine Sedaï (Wheel of Time, on Prime). Very unbearable. Difficult for no reason. The Wisdom could go in the list too. Been watching these shows tru my life with different audiences at different age and the results are the same: they're rage inducing characters and conjure up all sort of misogynistic slurs in the viewer's heart. Which bring me to a much different take/conclusion on these difficult women characters: they're are not a sign of times changing and women receiving properly written rich complex character. They're a tale of writer's lazyness resorting to problematic trope to agitate viewer's emotion and keep us hooked. While simultaneously pandering to female audience by constantly offloading the backlash of these character's decision/behaviour on expendable male support characters. Which is also very problematic. Peak example being Lori, the wife in early season of The Wlaking Dead, written to be hated and universally hated by audience. Difficult women characters fitting the narrative of this video essay (women receiving rich writing on screen and breaking social expectations) would be Furiosa (MadMax) and obviously Ripley (Alien 3). And even Hermione (HP saga) and Trinity (Matrix saga). But as we see, they are few and far in between. (didn't thought Id end up writing a book like that, lmao. Thanks if you bothered reading this far
Altough I agree with last third of video picks for illustrating Diff Wom char and maybe in the 2020's we starting seeing more of actually complete, rich complex female characters. But the fact that Diff Wom are written since 93 (Alien 3's Ripley) and written-to-be-hated Wom exist still today (2023, Wheel of Time's S2 Moiraine) really makes me say these are two separate and durable trends/dynamics. The first being a good sign of progress: complex well-written characters. The second relying on sexism with a modern varnish of feminist pandering: written-to-be-hated, emotion stirring, lazy writing characters. With the second constantly trying to masquerad as the first.
I disagree on Moiraine Sedaï. She is not a difficult woman trope, she is the unhinged woman. She is disconnected from life and behaves that way. The difficult woman means unlikeable and ambitious, everybody is season 2 is concerned about Moiraine's mental health. Every decision she makes is questioned and doubted because they think because she lost her connection to the source, she has nothing else to offer.
It was actually very frustrating to me to see both Toby and Jan both go from competent, reasonable, and morally correct characters who were acceptable in the first season to the opposite as seasons went on. As we were meant to love Michael for all his flaws, he was less purposefully cringy and more well intentioned but ignorant. Toby and Jan both became strange, awful, and unacceptable. You can't have characters that are reflecting reason and what's right, making you question why we keep accepting the "loveable" character doing all these awful things. Micheal is always doing offensive things, so if Toby is correct in calling him out, then he needs to be seen as boring, defeated, and weird in order for people to feel like Toby needs to be ignored regardless. Jan is just trying to do her job so if she is working hard to protect Michael's subordinates and keep Micheal from messing things up, then she needs to be overbearing, incompetent at her job, perverse, mean, and misusing work finances and really, Micheal was the faithful company employee in spite of his flaws as a boss.
This is why the best female lead movies are the ones where their goal/aspiration is more important than the gender. AKA Emily Blunt in "Edge of Tomorrow" or "Sicario" or Amy Adams in "Arrival"
0:55 And in this same era(Pre-code Hollywood)men frequently portrayed anti-heroes. It wasn't Patriarchal Oppression that led to the stifling of cinema up until The late 1960s, so much as it was the culture's veneration of priggishness and shallow thinking. We've been in very similar straits from '16-today. Only difference now: Female characters like Captain Marvel are pretty much caricatures of masculinity, while male characters are depicted as being feckless buffoons This is a loss for ALL consumers, male and female alike
I will push back a little bit on the Jan example. She reminds me more of how Dee in always sunny was originally intended to be a foil to the insanity of the rest of the group but Kaitlin Olson played her so well as a piece of shit that the character molded and grew around that. I felt similarly about Jan in the office-they wanted more people on the show to be flawed in interesting and funny ways besides Michael and Dwight who were the clownish characters for most of the early episodes. And it makes sense that all the characters, Jan included, get a little crazier as the show goes on because of their proximity to Michael and his antics. I mean, Jan even lived with him so she was working double shifts at the crazy factory. If you were looking for examples of powerful women on the show, Pam has always been that rock, and side characters like Karen filippelli filled that void. Even michael’s partner later in the series was good at her job and a powerful woman, but she was sweet and friendly and stern and responsible - not portrayed as difficult. Just my thoughts and onions
Exactly…everybody goes through this in the corporate world; all businesses in general. No one is an exception! No one deserves sympathy for wanting success. If you want success you’re going to endure all the demons that come with it. You wanna know why, because you’re paid an extraordinary salary and in a position to not worry about money. People need to learn everything in life comes with its gains, but here’s the question only intelligent people ask….”what am I sacrificing to gain this”.
It's interesting that from all the Sex and the City characters, Carrie was chosen for this one. Miranda seems like the best choice for refusing to bow to stereotypes - but in the most positive ways. Carrie wasn't so much "difficult" as "destructive".
I have been encourging people to use a larger pool of descriptiors when describing less than favorable women and their traits. To immediately cast a woman as a "bitch" is lazy and harmful. What happned to all the other wordsd in the dictionary? Deceitful. Manipulative. Callous. Impatient. Unyielding. There are so many ways in which we can describe an unlikeable woman before resorting to "bitch."
Because he is successful. Men will do what works over what is moral. Really anyone would. Also, most of the men who emulated him might already have been terrible and just found an avatar to project onto
The Hays Code didnt let men be difficult, either. Men couldn't get away with crimes. Compare "Oceans 11" (1960) with the 2001 remake. Edit: oh, and while the Hays Code forbade interracial romance, it also forbade the use of racial slurs.
The problem the take is highlighting is that women don’t get the benefit of being as 3 dimensional in most films. Men like Walter White are praised. Walter White isn’t just “evil” he’s a 3 dimensional character. Usually women on screen aren’t given that level of depth.
i'm gonna be chaotic for a minute... i agree with everything you are saying but don't men give up a lot of likeability to become leaders? or whatever is parallel to leader and whatnot. like, the phrase ''you become the very thing you sought to destroy'' is as much a warning to men about seeking power and wanting to achieve your goals no matter what its a version of ''give up womanly traits and become dragon lady'' 'its basically ''give up heroic traits and live long enough to become the villain'' ..people become ruthless. people become hardened. that's business. what i'm getting from the video is that you think women's ruthlessness is villinised...as opposed to what? the workaholic father who doesn't have time to raise his children, making them grow to resent him, and neglects his wife, who also resents him? the cold corporate ceo who exploits poor people and cuts down his staff in budget cuts? the sleazy lawyer, the indifferent bank manager, the disgusting and greedy old man who slaps the ass of his secretary and embezzles money from the very company he works at? you think its in the best interest of society at large to show those men in positive light? or just that women should be allowed to be as ''difficult'' and still be supported in sunshine girlboss lighting? if anything, i would argue that the women you used aren't difficult enough. like, difficult for men is not having a soul, difficult for women is not wearing a smile? and that's so....hurtful? is that the point your making...that women are hated for not smiling and being easy to work with? just asking, just being chaotic...
Honestly fair point. I'm hoping we can finally figure out that those aren't good qualities for ANYONE. But once upon a time men weren't really stigmatized for those characteristics, at least not like they are now. Think 1950's-1980s and the Gordon Gego "Greed is Good" ethos. And even now there are still those that think these traits admirable.
@@KrisRN23935 Have you read ANY books from these era. The difficult male boss is straight up hated and villainized. Sh1tty male characters have always been stigmatized. There are literal MYTHOLOGIES from ancient time to warn against them and dissuade to become them. And rightfully so.
I think this all stems from the fact that they win even as they are hated. A lotta times women don't do well with being socially hated even if they are successful whereas that is kinda normalized for men. Then there's also the fact that men are attractive to women for being difficult and successful but it doesn't really work the other way around
Carrie was irritating and difficult. Samantha was a much stronger woman, knowing her own mind and being unapologetic. On an aside, look at how Charlotte dealt with Miranda regarding choosing her choice and then look at how Sandra Bullock's character in The Blind Side dealt with her friends disagreeing with her choice over lunch. Much more powerful, calm, collected, wonderful.
I think it's when women shout, raise their voice or get angry because it's defensive always. Or when women act like men instead of using their inately femanine traits. I know a very successful woman (and i mean successful in life not just career) and she never shouts, never gets angry and never raises her voice, she is wholly feminine and not in a sexual way. It's just us women don't know how to just be our true selves, we've lost our sense of self and sisterhood, always atabbing women in the back. In my 30 years of working i've come across very few women i respect in the workplace.
1 although they’re often combined as you started in the beginning of the video- I do believe there is a difference between an female anti hero, a truly unlikeable, ruthless, or difficult woman, & simply a complex woman. It was hard to tell with the limited range of female characters in the past but I do believe this is slowly getting better. Obviously it is also closer to this more realistic representation in real life.
2 the mention of adams rib & traditional gender roles. Difficult women, complex women, & true female anti-hero’s all often get these labels for challenging traditional “gender roles”. I think what we are calling traditionally masculine or feminine today is kinda only a throwback to this era- & not much of history. I’d argue women were evolved to be more rational than men- they had increased risks w sexual behavior they had to account for, they managed households or farms whereas many men who fought in combat would need things like passion, & sometimes irrationality to go through with it at all. This era has such a chokehold on people but I truly believe it was kinda a fluke in our history up until this point.
3 the previous point also plays into the mention of working girl- how much of Tess is simply her high pitched voice or as you say coquette aesthetic. Is it inherently masculine to be cut throat?
4 the girl boss era was an interesting one- yes, they were often as bad as the men they claimed to be fighting against- it was also something that was packaged & sold to us (women) in a very specific way. It is often associated with being simply a shallow aesthetic now which more often than not it was.
5 the office reference is great. Being competent & assertive in many environments will get you labeled “difficult” as a women far quicker than it would for a man most of the time. There is a difference between someone who is truly difficult to work or be around & someone who simply will not let other steamroll over them. I think the “difficult” label or the fear of being labeled “difficult” to work with was used strategically to - at its most neutral to maintain the status quo or not upset the applecart in ways but at its worst truly abuse & take advantage of some people.
I will say that Mad Men isn't the best example of men escaping this trope as you arent supposed to like Don; dude sucked and lost his family because of it. If he was supposed to be aspirational, he wouldn't have lost everything in the end
Double standards when w woman kills her husband it's because of horrible he treated her if a man kills his wife it's unavailable based how horrible he treated her
You know what isn't a double standard but blatant misogyny is that in multiple countries its still legal to kill your wife if she cheats on you-her husband but the same repercussions don't exist for men.
Do you even actually watch these shows or did you find a listicle on Google? Devi on Never Have I Ever is pronounced day-vee, not dev-ee. The lack of attention to detail cheapens the quality of your videos.
There are alot of difficult "anti-hero" men which characters are complex and aren't painted as a joke, Dexter, Walter White, Tony soprano, The Joker. They literally talk about this in the video at 7:50. 🤦
In personal relationships, women are more "difficult" than men because men are much more likely to tolerate and put up with any difficulties a woman presents. If a man and a woman start dating and she is being difficult, he will probably endure it, if he is being difficult, she is much more likely to just dump him. The same is true for "crazy" and "high maintenance." Women are more likely to be called "difficult, crazy, and high maintenance." Women think this is sexism, but the truth of the matter is, women are called these things because of female privilege. Men who might deserve to be called those things get rejected, women who act like this are endured.
Adam's Rib is one of my favorite classic movies, but it's always annoying to see that Katharine always had to dim her light back down when Spencer got too uncomfortable with her confident bright light shining through. It shows what it was like to be a woman in Hollywood back then... There are still problems now, but we have a better understanding of the "difficult" woman because they're actually not! Women are human! WE are human!
@@beethovensfidelio I would argue that the hyperfemininity caricature depicted by barbie proves more of my point then it does disprove it (its so over the top it's literally not of this world quite literally lol). In fact, to go one step further, the only women in media that are actually that caricature of feminine are trans women, which is interesting in its own right.
Reminds me of a conversation I once had with someone about a pair of characters. They had mentioned that they hated a character because of some pretty major flaws that she had, which, fair. I pointed out, though, that one of their all time favorite characters shared the same flaws, to which they responded something to the effect of “well, I’m not excusing those flaws in him just because he’s a man. I can still acknowledge that he does bad things sometimes.” And yes, that was true. They never tried to claim that their male favorite was a perfect angel. And yet even still, they loved him and hated her. Why was that?
The Take: “However people started to question just how empowering this idea of being ruthless and throwing everyone else under the bus to get ahead in business really was” Women in the comments: “Be DIFFICULT! We are women and we are messy 😩 and we will make 👏🏽 trouble ⚔️ “ Me: ~nervous fox glance~
WATCH MORE - Another female trope that could be called "difficult" is the Neurotic Type A Woman. Here's our TAKE: ua-cam.com/video/5Aq9b2XfrWY/v-deo.html
Kerry Washington is my Roman Empire
It's called a click or cliche'
We're all difficult. People do tend to have issues with women who choose to prioritize their needs first.
Define "needs" and the means to get to it.
It is easy to deal with difficult men, but its impossible to deal with a difficult woman as she will accuse a man of being abusive even if she gets physical
@@jzwalz51robin45Most men don’t deal with difficult men ESPECIALLY if they think the difficult man has money or is successful or powerful. They just let them keep being other people’s problem until they just HAVE to do something because it gets uncomfortable for THEM.
Women get “difficult” label without even being difficult sometimes.
@@tf-okWhat do you define men’s needs? It’s mostly the same. On top of those I would add “safety” as a very woman centric need that most men don’t really prioritise for themselves.
@@DesiCat789 No, men either argue back or turn to physical fighting. Women who are difficult just become other people's problems because they just argue using feelings instead of logic, and it cannot get physical because they will call the police.
I loved that line in Scandal so much. "I am not the girl the guy gets at the end of the movie. I am not a fantasy. You want me? EARN ME." So freaking powerful.
Honestly, I never saw Olivia as difficult. I saw her as aspirational. She was amazing at her job and held herself to a high standard- even when the POTUS wanted her, she made him work for it. She was a bad ass.
I don't know the context of the scene as I don't watch the show but I don't like the 'EARN ME' part. It's still paralleling to her has something to obtain, as a reward for effort. It irks me.
@@thisiskitta He wanted his cake and to eat it too. She was setting boundaries and telling him to be a better partner first before expecting her attention and affection. The situation is rather irksome as he is cheating on his wife. I never much liked him, but Olivia is an excellent character and scandal was a brilliant show.
@@thisiskittaI understand you, but this is on Olivia Pope, if she (that is a fictional character) or a real world woman wants to be obtained by a man, that's their lives, I wouldn't use her sentence too, becouse it implys that after a man counquer my heart, he can walk all over me, but some women enjoy that.
The guy in the movie pretty much gets the girl because he "earned" her.
In "Aladdin" Jasmine says "I am not a prize to be won." Aladdin pretty much wins her and she is his prize, which is just the way she likes it. She is the prize and the carny.
Olivia Pope can act like that because she is beautiful. Women who act like that need to be beautiful and they need to understand that they don't deserve male friendship.
My grandfather called my mom (his daughter in law) called my mother difficult when she demanded that his son get a job when she was working double shifts while 8 months pregnant.
A difficult woman is often (not always, but often) just a woman who refuses to be treated like sh*t by men who refuse to step up.
It was brief, but I'm glad black women were mentioned in this take. As stated, the "difficult woman" stereotype, as well as the "angry black woman" stereotypes are still a very real issue for us. While feminism has made strides for most women, it hasn't been as big of a boon to woman of color.
You dont see the attitude that alot of black women bring You don't think it is real ,,,,,, hahahhaaaaaaaaa Have you considered stop being assholes ?
Yep, as a black woman if you have certain standards or goals it’s a completely different thing compared to non women of color
Speak on it 🫡
YUP!!!
Feminism has no appeal to black women imo. It strives for equality of the sexes, our natural counterpart is our biggest enemy. It strives to give women another choice other than a traditional lifestyle, meanwhile black women are the most employed of our race and more likely to raise their children alone; theres rarely a choice in the black community for a black woman to live a different life if they are suppose to also literally raise and support the men of our own race. That's not feminism, thats enslavement by our own men.
It doesn't help that we have a label like "mean girl". It suggests that girls and women are supposed to always be likable or not have any negative personality traits. It's very narrow.
No. Some women are mean because of social dominance hierarchies. It fits
RICH SINGLE AUNT TROPE! ❤ and how it changed from being a failure to being an inspiration for new generation of women! Before it was almost a threat, now it is celebrated! ❤ it really shows how times changed
I can't remember her name but in a season of Big Mouth one of the characters has a single, rich auntie who loves hanging around her family and giving sound wisdom to her nephew. When it's time for her to leave she silently takes off to parts unknown to do more rich auntie stuff. But she's so happy and fulfilled, she's not the least bit sad.
Yeahhh
People really belitled someone who was rich enough to be independent and stable?wtf😅
While “rich“ was not specified, the cool aunt was a sub trope discussed in their Wild Woman video.
Thank you for mentioning black women being stereotyped as more “ difficult “ and “ angry “. I noticed that anytime I stood up for myself I was considered the “ angry black woman “ even when people were racist and sexist to me. I was considered the bad girl just because I defended myself. I feel like society uses this stereotype to silence black women.
I think all women at some point in their life have been deemed as difficult but I also think that sometimes as women or people we should express anger or disappointment in a healthy manner. However, a lot of narcissistic men wants to make the women like she’s the villain for expressing anger even in a healthy way and make himself look like he’s the victim.
I also think that, sometimes not everything should be taken personally because of past experience. Because sometimes people do or say things out of habit and not out of spite.
For example, I remember when I trying to help give my seat to a service dog and look for another seat but when the flight attendant told me that there’s no other seats I was disappointed and according to her I rolled my eyes. Maybe I did because that’s I express disappointment. However, the flight attendant who was a bit dark skin took it personally that I was rolling my eyes. But the problem is that I instantly knew that somehow she felt personally offended even though it was just an facial expression that is normal my culture.
So I think that everyone needs to heal because we can’t take everything personally unless you see a suspicious pattern that involves you. And even than, you should confront the situation with empathy and open communication.
@@JB-ej2cxShe doesn’t need to do shit when people are oppressing her.
@@JB-ej2cx Typical, no accountability taken by women, it is always the men ....
@@jzwalz51robin45men blame women all the time. Nice try
Keep fighting the good fight 🎉
The "Difficult Woman" is usually a woman who is smart and doesn't suffer fools gladly.
Not always. For example there are some snapshots about Carrie in this video, and she was simply just difficult.
Now THAT is funny!!!!
Because ya ARE, Blanche, ya ARE difficult (from "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane")
Stubborn and can't admit when they're wrong.
Oh look, the story of my life.
The role of women is to be good mothers but nobody say that the men's role is to be good fathers.
People do say it a lot and most male-centric shows revolve around that. What are you on ?
She is on a delusion
@@jzwalz51robin45 For real, that victim-mentality seems truly more addictive than crack, atp.
Tell me you only hear what you want to hear without telling me. Heck the current show Robyn Hood shows how their bum dad left them and mom has to do everything.
What I have personally experienced is women want to hear "oh I appreciate you for the food you cook" but I never hear fathers say "Thank me for the money I earn"
@@vb2806 Resorting to fiction to support you, perfect.
It’s funny because if these women weren’t “difficult” they’d be considered “Mary Sues”. Damned if you are, damned if you aren’t.
Those are completely different things . Thanks for playing ,no prizes because you can look up the definition
@@edstringer1138I had to pause bc of this comment too. Fictional women like Olivia Pope and Amy from Beef literally play antagonistic roles at points, and it’s so far removed from the Mary Sue trope 😭
@@BlackXSunlight it is and the fact this woman confuses the two speaks volumes about the female mindset
And here's the thing, you speak up or put a boundary or have an issue, you become "difficult"
Mary sue means nothing anymore, it's just thrown around towards any female character thats skilled, competent or just have any arbitrary positive quality that isn't stereotypical just because they are. And dares to brush the poison ivy of self wankage that men have been guilty of since centuries. Oooor female characters that are meanie weenies but doesn't get punished by burning like the salem witch trials or go through the 44 days of hell. Quite an exaggeration ik but you get the gist of it.
The first women from Hollywood that immediately come to mind due to this label are Meghan Fox and Katherine Heigl. Both suffered immensely simply for being themselves and standing up to the sexist Assholes in the industry. I'm glad both had their redemption.
Both failures
And what's Megan Fox's acting range?
It didn’t help that Katherine Heigl would later executive-produce and star in “The Ugly Truth”, which is just as misogynistic as “Knocked Up”.
Yet she never condemned “The Ugly Truth” for being sexist in interviews.
It just makes Katherine Heigl look hypocritical and performative.
Why does “The Ugly Truth” get a pass for its sexism, but “Knocked Up” doesn’t?
The original "difficult woman" in the Western tradition has got to be Eleanor of Aquitaine (played perfectly by that other "difficult woman", Katherine Hepburn in "A Lion in Winter").
A true hero(ine) who wasn't a fictional character and broke every conceivable taboo in the Middle Ages...
Followed by Isabella of France, the She-wolf. Also don't forget Empress Matilda (Maud), who was rejected as Queen Regnant because she was a woman and regarded as extremely difficult, even though she was the rightful heir.
As an autistic woman who struggled with people-pleasing in the past, it feels great to not feel obliged to attent to others' needs over your own all the time. To oblivion with any Patriarchy wanting it to feel easy for themselves to treat women as mere second class citizens without consequences.
Times like this make me appreciate characters like Diane from Parks and Rec who, despite being a supporting character, is never berated or dismissed as "difficult," with even her apology being deemed unnecessary when meeting Ron.
I love this analysis it highlights that so much really hasn't changed when It comes to female representation on screen and that women who assert themselves or express their needs are still victims misogynistic attacks which directly translates into real life.
Let's be more specific: The censorious land manatees like Lindy West, and the preferred pronoun using, trigger warning loving loons who are shouting down speakers on campuses across the nation become "victims" of attack, when they do everything in their power to constrict the speech and behavior of all the rest of us mere mortals. This isn't just exclusive to women though. Beer bellied keyboard warriors like Paul Elam and pathetic neckbeards like Carl Benjamin also get targeted for drubbing, when they start screeching "Blue Pill/Cuck/Simp", the minute anyone expresses a thought which runs even mildly contrary to one of their own
Katharine Hepburn and Marlene Dietrich really were the OGs.
I’m a “difficult woman”. Took me forty years to realize I’m not the issue, it’s the expectations placed upon me by society and others. Can’t make everyone happy, so I work on making sure I’m taking good care of myself.
“It’s doesn’t take much to be a difficult woman, that’s why there are so many of us”
Waiting for the Oldest Sibling Sacrifice Trope like in the Hunger Games, or in Avatar Way of Water
We are all "Difficult". As a Autistic this hits me in my soul.
Name 1 feminist film that taught accountability to women and girls at least not anti accountability like bad moms or the speech in barbie movie
@@Strong-Feminine30accountability for what exactly 💀
I am outside did you guys get here
@@Strong-Feminine30 How the hell is the speech from Barbie "anti-accountabolity" & accountability for what?
@@plasticjesus444 anything
I'm rewatching Mad Men, and it boggles my mind how people like Don. I like him as a character, but he is a terrible husband, father and all-round person. Megan's career in acting is finally taking off, and all he can do is shit all over it.
Also that at various points by characters and the fandom: Betty, Sally, Megan, Peggy, and Joan (as a partner) are deemed difficult. Like when Joan was a bully to the secretaries, men adored her but as soon as she turns 5 percent of that energy to the men in their new company (honestly she was stern at worst) is when Joan starts getting humiliated
Don is a wonderful character to watch. John Hamm does so well, but Don as a person? Oof. Not one to aspire to for sure.
People like Deadpool too and he is a mass murd3r3r psycho.
There is a difference between a well written character who is an @sshole and a character whose entire point is to show "women can be strong too".
Why is women doing anything outside of motherhood shown as an achievement? If you want to strive for equality normalise it don't celebrate it
Horror is a great genre when it comes to investigating the difficult woman. Who is prioritised and how? Also, who really is the final girl?
Part of the problem is that, culturally, we’ve been taught over many generations to admire difficult men if they’re successful. That’s not good
This is not true the culture doesn't admire the mens attitude but the accomplishments because it is attractive. Anybody whose had a difficult male boss doesn't cherish the experience. It just so happens being successful is not a common attraction trigger for men like it is for women
It’s a coincidence that I find my favourite and relatable character under this umbrella of difficult women ? They are simply more real
I believe that I recently was lapeled the difficult (black women). The funny thing is I work in an office full of black women and only one male (our supervisor). I go out of my way to be respectful. But , the minute, I get upset that something was not done correctly. I have a co-worker who calls, my work-from-home boss, on me. This video gave me a clue as to why. We are conditioned to think that a woman who speaks up is a woman who is on the attack or controlling. The truth is that it is very hard to be nice all the time and that cute "oh I did know" BS does not work on me. Fix it. Thank you for reading my rant.
I really appreciate the comment about how even with all the growth against the "difficult women" trope... it hasn't necessarily reached black women. Truly, there's a lot more growth to be had on that front before most black women can fell like they can step into expressing themselves fully without being assumed as difficult.
To be fair to “Working Girl,” Sigourney Weaver actually was a villainous character who did unethical things to get ahead and stole her secretary’s ideas. It’s not just the contrasting level of femininity of the two but her actions that make her the villain.
Bella Baxter of Poor Things (2023) confronts this trope. I need to add some of the films you reference to my watch list. Great video.
"For a man to be ruthless, a man has to be Joseph McCarthy. A woman just has to put you on hold." - Marlo Thomas
I feel you guys should have spoke of "Difficult Women" in True Crime, like the treatment of victims like Betty Gore and Elana Steinberg, who were vilified while their murderers (one of whom was the "Perfect Housewife") got to walk.
Speaking of NHIE, can ya'll do a video on Cousins and Mother In Laws in media?
Carrie Mathison character analysis please ‼️Homeland had one of the best final season and series finales i’ve ever seen
Difficult women, next to anti-hero man = extra difficult, like Skyler White in breaking bad
Skyler was a difficult control freak before Walter every became a meth dealer
I have to argue against this highly selective take on Katherine in Working Girl. Katherine isn't "difficult" because no one around her has had any complaints about her until the end of the movie, when she's exposed. She always knew how to look good and innocent in front of the right people. The lesson Tess learns about Katherine is that it's not just her gender that's hindering her in this sexist world, but also her social status. When Katherine first appears, she is not meant to repulse us. We laugh at her, sure, but it's because of her very privileged ways and lack of self awareness about it ("I'd love to help, but the quarterback can't be seen passing out the Gatorade."). But to Tess: she's a Godsend. Tess has just come from a stream of male bosses who treat her like meat to be traded. She meets Katherine and thinks she's found someone who respects her and treats her like an equal (we the audience know better, of course). And then Tess has the rug pulled out from under her when she realizes Katherine is actually worse than many of her former bosses. Katherine says one thing, then does another. The positives about Katherine are that she knows how to maneuver the male-dominated workforce while still maintaining her feminine characteristics, so no one suspects her. She's clever that way. And she does give Tess good advice at the beginning (even if she thinks of Tess as part of some Big Sister/Little Sister program). But she's also insanely privileged. She comes from wealth and, therefore, has had every connection and opportunity handed to her and she never once contemplated if she deserved any of it. So when Tess comes up with a good idea Katherine takes it because, in her mind, why shouldn't she? "Why" does Katherine throw Tess under the bus? Because she can. Because she thinks it's her right, as someone who has gotten this far, to keep on going. Tess, to Katherine, is expendable. Katherine isn't "difficult." She's pompous, entitled and elitist. And i loooooooove her. She's insanely quotable.
Where is Cristina Yang?
Keri Russell in "The Americans" was awesome.
I appreciate the bravery of strongly calling out sexism on the internet. For that alone this channel deserves an award. This channel should do a whole review of the final season of GoT’s sexism. From power Mad Dany, to Sansa saying r*pe made her a stronger person, to Cersei being made into a side character. Heck only one woman is even on the ruling council. The final GoT season is still the most misogynistic thing I’ve ever personally watched from start to finish and completely destroyed the legacy of the show. To the point where people never bring up the most popular show of the 2010s.
I've always drummed to my own beat and refuse to be "nice" as its a false facade. I've been treated with hostility and suspicion in the past by my own generation. Younger generations not so much.
Yes, ppl tend to not like selfishness and egocentrism. How is that a surprise to anyone ?
If you are not being nice just for the sake of it then you are the problem.
I would rather be nice and not hurt people as much as possible. Specially people I don't have to deal with regularly
@@vb2806Congrats.
Part of the problem with AJLT is all of a sudden Carrie isn’t difficult anymore. Very conventional, wants to get to know her boyfriends kids etc
The girl from Never Have I Ever is called Davi, pronounced Davey. And oh my god, is she difficult in the best way. 😅
Vidéo Suggestion: The Yuppies of the ‘80s and ‘90s.
This is overwhelming in the Diana Ross movie Mahogney. By the end, she is defeated by the Big Bad World she dared venture into. The ending is HORRIBLE, but I saw this when I was a child and I felt better that Diana's character got to get "Home" to where she belonged with a MAN to show her true purpose... SUPPORT HIM AND HIS ASPIRATIONS...I love the movie, but now it just hurts to watch....
To be fair, I don’t see many people praising difficult men either. They’re the type that no one likes (to work with or be with).
I don't know, I think the criticism they get are quite different.
No it's not we just use different words for it like asshole or douchebag or dickhead
Stop glorifying bad behavior in women and call it human choices! It is not ok to be rude, manipulative and domineering. Goodness and kindness are choices you make based on strength. Sisterhood does not exist as little as brotherhood.
This tv show AJLT "continuation" of SATC is a Black Mirror of a reality that we don't want to see behind the facade.
Carrie is a fictional character who represents the worst friend you can have as a woman! She takes and takes and then throws away or wastes things and people like nothing. It doesn't pay off to be like Carrie, it turns out. You end up on a beach with a drink in your hand with a "girlfriend" in the same situation that she doesn't even like or respect. You realize that you have become old and irrelevant.
The series also addresses another topic that receives a lot of attention in the media. Belonging to a certain group or community is not a guarantee of success in the profession or private life. You have to work as hard as everyone else to get where you want to go if even that is enough! I am referring to Che, another difficult woman!! 😁🤣😅😀
Exactly this channel a lot of times is just the mirror image of the things they critique because they rightly criticize society for justifying male misbehavior then do the same with female dysfunction
They did Jan dirty in the later seasons. But it actually seems like Michael made her go crazy. Still, the early season Jan was a perfect competent female boss any corporate environment would like to have. It's sad that the writers did her dirty to stereotype her character
I would looooove to see a video about The Americans. I absolutlely loved Elizabeth character, it was so empowering watching a woman like her on the screen.
I’ve worked a with a lot of difficult people and it wasn’t because they were putting themselves first and anything to do with self serving behaviour. Most of them were just assholes or completely dumbasses.
my mom was not diifficult, she knew the realities of life God rest her soul. However she went some places where I could not go. Ma is my hero. my Pops is too. Where's the love? lLove them no mater what. thank you oh yes I'mtheir son.
Wilbur Hayes didn't like strong women, obviously!
TV's Murphy Brown was a big leap forward.
"Difficult" = smarter than all the men around her
No it doesn't. I've been around intelligent women and I've been around difficult women. The only thing they usually have in common is anxiety
This video essay miss quite a big mark about how hollywood is , increasingly enabling and indulgent with difficult women wrecking havoc in their entourage and community, without any consequences or ability. Preventing them from being any sort of hero-journey protagonist, whatsoever.
First, the Take video's are ALWAYS good, I swear. Even this one.
But on this specific topic (of fictional Difficult women character), the YT channel's bias do show up quite much in my taste.
Im obviously not as cultured about former shows discussed from the 1920's and early 2000's.
But I do happen to know Sex and The city (Carrie Bradshaw), Homeland (Carrie M.), The American (Elizabeth) and NHIE (Devi).
And while these difficult characters grow up and are allowed mistakes...they're allowed MANY severe mistake that OTHER ppl are paying a price for. Mistakes and choices that no one in their right mind would make. Devi literally ruin her romantic interest life and sport carreer perspective. Carrie Bradshaw breaks heart after heart in a careless solipsistic fashion and Elizabeth gets her husband beaten up, captured, tortured and such (and other agents straight up killed) on multiple occasions. Only Carrie M (homeland) gets a sort of pass because circumstances (she paranoid but turns out there DO is a conspiracy going on).
One critical modern addition would be season 2 Moiraine Sedaï (Wheel of Time, on Prime). Very unbearable. Difficult for no reason. The Wisdom could go in the list too.
Been watching these shows tru my life with different audiences at different age and the results are the same: they're rage inducing characters and conjure up all sort of misogynistic slurs in the viewer's heart.
Which bring me to a much different take/conclusion on these difficult women characters: they're are not a sign of times changing and women receiving properly written rich complex character. They're a tale of writer's lazyness resorting to problematic trope to agitate viewer's emotion and keep us hooked. While simultaneously pandering to female audience by constantly offloading the backlash of these character's decision/behaviour on expendable male support characters. Which is also very problematic.
Peak example being Lori, the wife in early season of The Wlaking Dead, written to be hated and universally hated by audience.
Difficult women characters fitting the narrative of this video essay (women receiving rich writing on screen and breaking social expectations) would be Furiosa (MadMax) and obviously Ripley (Alien 3). And even Hermione (HP saga) and Trinity (Matrix saga). But as we see, they are few and far in between.
(didn't thought Id end up writing a book like that, lmao. Thanks if you bothered reading this far
Altough I agree with last third of video picks for illustrating Diff Wom char and maybe in the 2020's we starting seeing more of actually complete, rich complex female characters.
But the fact that Diff Wom are written since 93 (Alien 3's Ripley) and written-to-be-hated Wom exist still today (2023, Wheel of Time's S2 Moiraine) really makes me say these are two separate and durable trends/dynamics.
The first being a good sign of progress: complex well-written characters.
The second relying on sexism with a modern varnish of feminist pandering: written-to-be-hated, emotion stirring, lazy writing characters. With the second constantly trying to masquerad as the first.
I disagree on Moiraine Sedaï. She is not a difficult woman trope, she is the unhinged woman. She is disconnected from life and behaves that way. The difficult woman means unlikeable and ambitious, everybody is season 2 is concerned about Moiraine's mental health. Every decision she makes is questioned and doubted because they think because she lost her connection to the source, she has nothing else to offer.
It was actually very frustrating to me to see both Toby and Jan both go from competent, reasonable, and morally correct characters who were acceptable in the first season to the opposite as seasons went on. As we were meant to love Michael for all his flaws, he was less purposefully cringy and more well intentioned but ignorant. Toby and Jan both became strange, awful, and unacceptable.
You can't have characters that are reflecting reason and what's right, making you question why we keep accepting the "loveable" character doing all these awful things.
Micheal is always doing offensive things, so if Toby is correct in calling him out, then he needs to be seen as boring, defeated, and weird in order for people to feel like Toby needs to be ignored regardless. Jan is just trying to do her job so if she is working hard to protect Michael's subordinates and keep Micheal from messing things up, then she needs to be overbearing, incompetent at her job, perverse, mean, and misusing work finances and really, Micheal was the faithful company employee in spite of his flaws as a boss.
Certain parts of the media equate the difficult woman = toxic girl boss trope. Which is waay worse
This is why the best female lead movies are the ones where their goal/aspiration is more important than the gender. AKA Emily Blunt in "Edge of Tomorrow" or "Sicario" or Amy Adams in "Arrival"
Women are victims or hero’s in their minds never the villain
So were exactly did this correlation that femininity equals luxury/wealth originate?
I am sorry Carrie was not just difficult, she was obssessed.
0:55 And in this same era(Pre-code Hollywood)men frequently portrayed anti-heroes. It wasn't Patriarchal Oppression that led to the stifling of cinema up until The late 1960s, so much as it was the culture's veneration of priggishness and shallow thinking. We've been in very similar straits from '16-today. Only difference now: Female characters like Captain Marvel are pretty much caricatures of masculinity, while male characters are depicted as being feckless buffoons
This is a loss for ALL consumers, male and female alike
I will push back a little bit on the Jan example. She reminds me more of how Dee in always sunny was originally intended to be a foil to the insanity of the rest of the group but Kaitlin Olson played her so well as a piece of shit that the character molded and grew around that. I felt similarly about Jan in the office-they wanted more people on the show to be flawed in interesting and funny ways besides Michael and Dwight who were the clownish characters for most of the early episodes. And it makes sense that all the characters, Jan included, get a little crazier as the show goes on because of their proximity to Michael and his antics. I mean, Jan even lived with him so she was working double shifts at the crazy factory. If you were looking for examples of powerful women on the show, Pam has always been that rock, and side characters like Karen filippelli filled that void. Even michael’s partner later in the series was good at her job and a powerful woman, but she was sweet and friendly and stern and responsible - not portrayed as difficult. Just my thoughts and onions
Would high maintenance count too?
Some women r difficult cause they want quiet,tranquility,silence,at the expense of someone else,that brings them one thing: peace.
Yeah, we haven't seen very many female CIA agents portrayed on screen!
Successful men are pitted against each other all the time
🤷♂️🤷♂️ they seemingly forgot to mention that.
Exactly…everybody goes through this in the corporate world; all businesses in general. No one is an exception! No one deserves sympathy for wanting success. If you want success you’re going to endure all the demons that come with it. You wanna know why, because you’re paid an extraordinary salary and in a position to not worry about money. People need to learn everything in life comes with its gains, but here’s the question only intelligent people ask….”what am I sacrificing to gain this”.
Yup. That is how society has functioned since time immemorial
Don't be difficult if you want people to like you. That applies to everyone. Even pets.
Did you call Davi Debbie?
It's interesting that from all the Sex and the City characters, Carrie was chosen for this one. Miranda seems like the best choice for refusing to bow to stereotypes - but in the most positive ways. Carrie wasn't so much "difficult" as "destructive".
how di they explain male businesses men villains
I have been encourging people to use a larger pool of descriptiors when describing less than favorable women and their traits. To immediately cast a woman as a "bitch" is lazy and harmful. What happned to all the other wordsd in the dictionary?
Deceitful. Manipulative. Callous. Impatient. Unyielding.
There are so many ways in which we can describe an unlikeable woman before resorting to "bitch."
No one who watched all of Madmen thinks Don is an aspirational character. He is clearly a trainwreck.
Tons of men emulated him.
Because he is successful. Men will do what works over what is moral. Really anyone would. Also, most of the men who emulated him might already have been terrible and just found an avatar to project onto
The Hays Code didnt let men be difficult, either. Men couldn't get away with crimes. Compare "Oceans 11" (1960) with the 2001 remake.
Edit: oh, and while the Hays Code forbade interracial romance, it also forbade the use of racial slurs.
People are difficult only if they don't listen to other viewpoints, or other ideas... nor can admit when they are wrong.
Correct….?
Women can be bullies,too,like Joan Crawford talk about " difficult".lol.
The problem the take is highlighting is that women don’t get the benefit of being as 3 dimensional in most films. Men like Walter White are praised. Walter White isn’t just “evil” he’s a 3 dimensional character. Usually women on screen aren’t given that level of depth.
Walter White is "praised"? I would more say he is understood. I rarely ever see someone praise the characters actions
Why r u talking about Walter White,I was speaking about Joan Crawford being a bully,a Walter White is an antihero,where she is known being a villain.
@@theoharrington8668 I meant to reply to the comment under yours
i'm gonna be chaotic for a minute... i agree with everything you are saying but don't men give up a lot of likeability to become leaders? or whatever is parallel to leader and whatnot. like, the phrase ''you become the very thing you sought to destroy'' is as much a warning to men about seeking power and wanting to achieve your goals no matter what its a version of ''give up womanly traits and become dragon lady'' 'its basically ''give up heroic traits and live long enough to become the villain'' ..people become ruthless. people become hardened. that's business. what i'm getting from the video is that you think women's ruthlessness is villinised...as opposed to what? the workaholic father who doesn't have time to raise his children, making them grow to resent him, and neglects his wife, who also resents him? the cold corporate ceo who exploits poor people and cuts down his staff in budget cuts? the sleazy lawyer, the indifferent bank manager, the disgusting and greedy old man who slaps the ass of his secretary and embezzles money from the very company he works at? you think its in the best interest of society at large to show those men in positive light? or just that women should be allowed to be as ''difficult'' and still be supported in sunshine girlboss lighting? if anything, i would argue that the women you used aren't difficult enough. like, difficult for men is not having a soul, difficult for women is not wearing a smile? and that's so....hurtful? is that the point your making...that women are hated for not smiling and being easy to work with? just asking, just being chaotic...
Honestly fair point. I'm hoping we can finally figure out that those aren't good qualities for ANYONE. But once upon a time men weren't really stigmatized for those characteristics, at least not like they are now. Think 1950's-1980s and the Gordon Gego "Greed is Good" ethos. And even now there are still those that think these traits admirable.
@@KrisRN23935 Have you read ANY books from these era. The difficult male boss is straight up hated and villainized. Sh1tty male characters have always been stigmatized. There are literal MYTHOLOGIES from ancient time to warn against them and dissuade to become them. And rightfully so.
I think this all stems from the fact that they win even as they are hated. A lotta times women don't do well with being socially hated even if they are successful whereas that is kinda normalized for men. Then there's also the fact that men are attractive to women for being difficult and successful but it doesn't really work the other way around
Carrie was irritating and difficult. Samantha was a much stronger woman, knowing her own mind and being unapologetic.
On an aside, look at how Charlotte dealt with Miranda regarding choosing her choice and then look at how Sandra Bullock's character in The Blind Side dealt with her friends disagreeing with her choice over lunch. Much more powerful, calm, collected, wonderful.
I think it's when women shout, raise their voice or get angry because it's defensive always. Or when women act like men instead of using their inately femanine traits. I know a very successful woman (and i mean successful in life not just career) and she never shouts, never gets angry and never raises her voice, she is wholly feminine and not in a sexual way. It's just us women don't know how to just be our true selves, we've lost our sense of self and sisterhood, always atabbing women in the back. In my 30 years of working i've come across very few women i respect in the workplace.
There are a lot of things going here. I think I’m going to do a thread with a few important points.
1 although they’re often combined as you started in the beginning of the video- I do believe there is a difference between an female anti hero, a truly unlikeable, ruthless, or difficult woman, & simply a complex woman. It was hard to tell with the limited range of female characters in the past but I do believe this is slowly getting better. Obviously it is also closer to this more realistic representation in real life.
2 the mention of adams rib & traditional gender roles. Difficult women, complex women, & true female anti-hero’s all often get these labels for challenging traditional “gender roles”. I think what we are calling traditionally masculine or feminine today is kinda only a throwback to this era- & not much of history. I’d argue women were evolved to be more rational than men- they had increased risks w sexual behavior they had to account for, they managed households or farms whereas many men who fought in combat would need things like passion, & sometimes irrationality to go through with it at all. This era has such a chokehold on people but I truly believe it was kinda a fluke in our history up until this point.
3 the previous point also plays into the mention of working girl- how much of Tess is simply her high pitched voice or as you say coquette aesthetic. Is it inherently masculine to be cut throat?
4 the girl boss era was an interesting one- yes, they were often as bad as the men they claimed to be fighting against- it was also something that was packaged & sold to us (women) in a very specific way. It is often associated with being simply a shallow aesthetic now which more often than not it was.
5 the office reference is great. Being competent & assertive in many environments will get you labeled “difficult” as a women far quicker than it would for a man most of the time. There is a difference between someone who is truly difficult to work or be around & someone who simply will not let other steamroll over them. I think the “difficult” label or the fear of being labeled “difficult” to work with was used strategically to - at its most neutral to maintain the status quo or not upset the applecart in ways but at its worst truly abuse & take advantage of some people.
Me too
I will say that Mad Men isn't the best example of men escaping this trope as you arent supposed to like Don; dude sucked and lost his family because of it. If he was supposed to be aspirational, he wouldn't have lost everything in the end
Girl boss Feminism turns people against women 😢
Double standard alert!
Any issues that come from "Negative" feminism is due to poor writing. "Negative" being subjective.
Good grief, these people come up with yet another reductive label for women every single week!
How the black women fall into this difficult category 🤷🏿♀️
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Double standards when w woman kills her husband it's because of horrible he treated her if a man kills his wife it's unavailable based how horrible he treated her
You know what isn't a double standard but blatant misogyny is that in multiple countries its still legal to kill your wife if she cheats on you-her husband but the same repercussions don't exist for men.
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Do you even actually watch these shows or did you find a listicle on Google? Devi on Never Have I Ever is pronounced day-vee, not dev-ee. The lack of attention to detail cheapens the quality of your videos.
Wonder if any of woman's problems they go through might be internal.
We loo how other made woman bad person but laugh at male who's mothers didn't love him enough
There are alot of difficult "anti-hero" men which characters are complex and aren't painted as a joke, Dexter, Walter White, Tony soprano, The Joker. They literally talk about this in the video at 7:50. 🤦
@@Babyblue115Thank you It's funny how that the person choose to forget that before writing the comment.
In personal relationships, women are more "difficult" than men because men are much more likely to tolerate and put up with any difficulties a woman presents.
If a man and a woman start dating and she is being difficult, he will probably endure it, if he is being difficult, she is much more likely to just dump him.
The same is true for "crazy" and "high maintenance."
Women are more likely to be called "difficult, crazy, and high maintenance." Women think this is sexism, but the truth of the matter is, women are called these things because of female privilege. Men who might deserve to be called those things get rejected, women who act like this are endured.
Se isso fosse verdade, não haveria tantos personagens do tipo "bad boy" como par romântico ou personagem mais popular.
"Taming of the shrew" ... *shrew = difficult woman*
Indeed, what’s up with the rodent comparison?
"all men are dogs" seriously what's up with the canine comparison?
@@LillikoiSeed Shrews are insectivores not rodents.
@@SlapstickGenius23 Good to know.
Great take on Jan. I always thought the show did her character dirty.
I try so hard to remain a “difficult woman” 😌💅🏽 Its fun UwU
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Adam's Rib is one of my favorite classic movies, but it's always annoying to see that Katharine always had to dim her light back down when Spencer got too uncomfortable with her confident bright light shining through. It shows what it was like to be a woman in Hollywood back then... There are still problems now, but we have a better understanding of the "difficult" woman because they're actually not! Women are human! WE are human!
Idk... is even being a hyper feminine woman in movies even a thing anymore? I mean how dead does being a girlie girl have to be? Lol
There was the “Barbie” movie this year in all of its hyperfeminine glory!
@@beethovensfidelio I would argue that the hyperfemininity caricature depicted by barbie proves more of my point then it does disprove it (its so over the top it's literally not of this world quite literally lol). In fact, to go one step further, the only women in media that are actually that caricature of feminine are trans women, which is interesting in its own right.
@@beethovensfideliohow is she hyperfeminine? Would you care to explain?
@@vb2806 Because she’s stereotypical Barbie wearing bright colors and pretty dresses.
Reminds me of a conversation I once had with someone about a pair of characters. They had mentioned that they hated a character because of some pretty major flaws that she had, which, fair. I pointed out, though, that one of their all time favorite characters shared the same flaws, to which they responded something to the effect of “well, I’m not excusing those flaws in him just because he’s a man. I can still acknowledge that he does bad things sometimes.” And yes, that was true. They never tried to claim that their male favorite was a perfect angel.
And yet even still, they loved him and hated her. Why was that?
The Take: “However people started to question just how empowering this idea of being ruthless and throwing everyone else under the bus to get ahead in business really was”
Women in the comments: “Be DIFFICULT! We are women and we are messy 😩 and we will make 👏🏽 trouble ⚔️ “
Me: ~nervous fox glance~
06:04 What's the name of the film with the woman on stage in a light pink suit?
“Your girl is lovely, Hubble.”