It's nice that players are getting introduced to the mechanics and indicators that will get used for the rest of the game in trials and raids and they don't have to wait to see them until level 70 or later. Usually by that time you expect people to know how to deal with these kinds of things.
Good improvement, imo. I like how ARR stuff has been changed to kind of fall in line with how it is later in the game, rather than going through ARR having a lot of different tells (or none at all in some cases) only to get dropped into Stormblood and be tossed all of these new markers. I hope they can do the same for Heavensward. I think it's worth losing the 'cheeky early days experimental mechanics' that don't see any use anymore anyway. Also as far as I know, Thornmarch Ex still has the original mechanics, so it's not all gone.
"Back in my day we had to place markers on those lil moogle bastards before we were allowed to touch the king and the off tank had to take the moogle tank adds away from the party," - Remember. Remember that we could target the lil moogles.
Apart from a few slightly tweeked mechanics such as Pom-Meteor, they seem to have updated the mechanic markers to standard markers, red glow for tank buster, purple circle for spread away etc. Many ARR trials have/had icons unique to their fights, despite the mechanic needed to be done being the same. Once they started to standardise markers/prompts from around the HW expansion onwards, they never really went back to older ARR trials etc to update them, and it seems they are finally doing this now as I noticed in "Sohm Al" the other day, that the T-rex boss in there now has standard stack/spread markers and not just a red/blue arrow indicating the same mechanic.
I love how people forget this. But you are now keenly aware that GKMM now fights like Thordan Extreme. Summoning his minions to do aoes while you beat down the boss.
I like this change because it lets players get introduced to the new mechanics they're going to see for the rest of the game. I know some of the end game mechanics murdered me & other FC members several times during our learning phases because mechanics like those timed AOEs would only give u seconds to react before activating despite being brand new mechanics
I like these changes. There's more mechanics but now it's telegraphed better for newer players and these mechanics are great to introduce for the future
I think it's good to introduce these mechanics early game, I remember the first time I saw a double tank stack marker and not knowing what to expect, or when there's meteors that require certain amount of players to soak the damage, or the pushback marker that splits the arena in 2, sure after you see them 2-3 times you get the mechanic, but it's good that they introduce more mechanic dependant and less chaotic, because lets be honest... the trials that were modified were a mess when you are just starting on the game lmao
While it might be less confusing it is I believe synched lower, making killing the moogles in the first phase less face-roll for full geared groups. It takes longer but hardly anyone cared about killing them in order on hard, so the change has brought mechanics you actually need to pay attention to.
It's impressive they put a double stack in for the tanks, I don't remember seeing one of those until really high levels. It makes sense for the first 8 man though if they want to demonstrate the point of having multiple tanks (without requiring sprout tanks to do a tank swap or something).
I superrr want them to add moogle weapons for all the classes. I adore them and the silly sounds they make when you unsheathe/sheathe. Maybe eventuallyyyy
I really like a lot of the revamps I'm seeing! And I don't think it cuts the difficulty at all. I think what it does is standardize it. Because we don't see a tank stack marker until the Level 89 Trial, and a lot of what the Good King is doing in this fight is very reminiscent of the Level 60 MSQ trial. If they continue to slowly comb through a lot of these older fights to bring mechanics up to the kind of standardized code they've found for themselves, I would absolutely love that!
as far as i know they changed the apperance of the moogles at 1st phase aswell, we used to have the blm spawn after the innitial moogle went down and the whm, war and a third (cant remember which) later on. quite interesting though how they changed it... also quite confusing when you're used to it since ARR days XD like the oldies some of us are
I enjoy the changes bc it feels like a real fight now, where it couldn't before with all the stat squishing and power creep going on. It also cuts back on the actual chaos it used to have while still maintaining its chaotic feeling.
I do have to wonder how one would go about learning Pom Cure, now, for Blue Mage. I don't think I saw it cast at all by the white mage moogle. Is EX now the only way?
In some other arr content, mostly guildhests i think, if you focus the 'boss' the fight ends so the old version of this fight would always trip up the groups I'd get. There'd usually be 1 or 2 wipes because people weren't paying attention and focused the king or a the tanks weren't doing what they needed to do so the healers got murdered.
It's interesting, the changes make things way less creatively janky in how you deal with bosses but more consistent and smooth in the progression of teaching players mechanics that they'll face going forward. On the topic of the difficulty of Thornmarch hard, it just kind of wasn't anymore anyway, I did it as a Warrior pre change and I spent a good chunk of the fight running around like a headless chicken because the Mooglesguard were dying before I could reach them and we had the fight done in no time at all.
Is there some overview somewhere what all those different markers actually mean, I've only seen some of them? I'm at that point in the story but there is no duty support any more to learn how it works and I don't feel like going in blind and potentially wiping a raid group multiple times.
Vault has been changed on Placements on NPC's now. Normally some area's the NPC's come charging at you at points. Now their at a static spot to pick up.
Trust me no argument from me. I'm verhappy with the change and I think it's better to learn mechanics than run around like a chicken w your head cut off Now, one other trial I wish they would fix in MSQ would be The Crystalis trial. *sighs*
tbh, the old version wasn't really difficult. It was super inconsistent on if you even cleared it purely on the fact that people didn't know how it worked and like a ton of old ARR stuff are one time mechanics. With the new reworks they essentially teach players from a lot earlier in the game to know what to expect later on which I personally appreciate
Considering he one shot his partner, you wouldn't see Pom Cure. Pom Cure is only set to be cast when the partner is damaged, can't heal what's outright dead.
.... Double Stack marker? What exactly is that? I'm assuming that's an Extreme/Savage Only thing, as I've not seen it in any of the (Hard) trials or Normal raids.
the red stack is basically a tank stack. Both of the tanks have to go in and take the damage and only the tanks. assuming thats what you were talking about
It will be really nice that I won't see any more wipes because of people DPSing the King and causing a Memento Moogle with all the moogles up for an insta-wipe.
While I absolutely approve of them changing it to this degree, I also think it kills off one of the most important things to learn. Killing the most problematic thing and how to choose what to kill and the order...Though I doubt it served that much of a purpose as of 6.0 when a couple people could take out the necessary moogle even if the rest were brain deading the fight. At the same time, it's the first trial now and teaches several very common mechanics and the such. So I definitely see the good of the new version of this fight. On the other hand, I absolutely dread getting this in trial roulette with how damn bloated the kings health is and how horribly boring the fight is now.
thats a very interesting take i always thought thornmarch hard was way too easy before and now it actually has you paying more attention with more emphasis on team work. and personally i always throught the arr trials were way too short making extreme the only fun thing about the arr trials.
I always found thornmarch dreadfully boring before the update. There were no mechanics and can be overwhelming for new players as the first 8 man trial. Target priority is, honestly, too complicated of a concept that is very rarely seen in normal difficulty content. I find the new thornmarch to actually be a more fun fight and something I no longer dread getting in a roulette. It seems like a much better improvement and gives me the feeling of thordan when doing it
I like this version better. there was nothing positive about the old one, also I think now when it is item level synced the adds were dead before they could do anything anyways.
I thought it was the makai healer short but that dangling belt is off so :C No idea, maybe the island exploration shorts but the right leg ornament is hidden by the boots
Tbh the original wasn't difficult either, it was just complicated because the signs and feedback weren't appropriate. It was "hard" to know what to do, not to actually do it, which isn't really interesting gameplay wise.
I guess it is good they are revamping old dungeons/trials, but was Thornmarch ever required? I mean I've only done it once when I was just trying to get rid of all the blues. And then once after soloing for song. I just don't see why this one of all trials were updated. I feel like some of the Hildabrand Trials should have been updated first, given that we have to do them.
They changed it because it’s now the first 8-man trial that in the MSQ (since they change Cape Westwind and Ultima Weapon). It’s actually a good introduction to sprouts about the mechanics.
Wait. They made changes to the moggle battle? O.o I had no idea. I straight up just stomp in it without issue unsynced. All to either get a stamp or to get a stamp. No, idea they changed it, lol.
I don't mind that they are changing old fights to be more compliant with their now standardized markers and rules. However, my issue is that the extreme version is kind of left as a vestigial version of the old fight. Anyone doing a blind run and at min ilvl will basically have no basis to work with as mechanics from "hard" don't transfer over and you get no hint at kill order on extreme. Granted, not many people are doing blind/min ilvl runs of old content, nevermind the fact that harder versions of content change enough of the fight that you can't rely on normal as a guide. But, one thing the devs do well is slow introduction of mechanics. This could be like "Here's an attack that'll cleave half the room. Here's an attack that requires everyone spreading apart." Later in the fight, those same attacks can be combined together, so everyone has to move to one side of the room while spreading apart. This applies to going from normal (or "hard" in this trial's case, really it's normal) to extreme/savage. Certain mechanics get reused without telegraphs and at full potential (i.e. already getting mixed and match and such). So normal can be used to hint at potential mechanics in the harder fight, along with figuring out intricacies of those reused mechanics (i.e. how do I know which half the room is going to be cleaved, when I've been reliant on the telegraph? Oh, he's holding his sword over this side of the room). Any big changes or new mechanics that are unique to the harder version get introduced slowly over the fight. It's set up expecting you to have mastered normal mechanics, while getting introduced to hard mechanics.
you do actually get a hint at the kill order you just have to listen carefully. The lyrics in the song tell you the kill order but you are right that extreme should have some tweaks to avoid confusion
To me, the Moogle extreme trial needs to be changed more than the hard one.. The extreme trial is way too boring and too (I think I just lost my words for the extreme trial)..
It's nice that they're finally actually teaching people how to play their game instead of a bunch of brainless noobs running around making the game harder for everyone else
This isn't easier for new players. The previous mechanic is to kill the dangerous/troublesome moogles as fast as possible so you do not have to suffer their mechanic, while now it is forced upon you whether you have high dps or not. Good for new players but god damn annoying for veterans.
Heaven forbid the game try and teach new players things, the thing people often use as a point against the game. I imagine it's easier for new players just because it isn't pure chaos.
At this point why not make the bosses hurt themselves? The game no longer has any challenge, that's why I quit. I hate casuals and used to bully them but now they got their way.
It's nice that players are getting introduced to the mechanics and indicators that will get used for the rest of the game in trials and raids and they don't have to wait to see them until level 70 or later. Usually by that time you expect people to know how to deal with these kinds of things.
Good improvement, imo. I like how ARR stuff has been changed to kind of fall in line with how it is later in the game, rather than going through ARR having a lot of different tells (or none at all in some cases) only to get dropped into Stormblood and be tossed all of these new markers. I hope they can do the same for Heavensward. I think it's worth losing the 'cheeky early days experimental mechanics' that don't see any use anymore anyway.
Also as far as I know, Thornmarch Ex still has the original mechanics, so it's not all gone.
They already are doing it for HW, the only base HW dungeons to not get the treatment yet is gubal library and final dungeon for base hw
"Back in my day we had to place markers on those lil moogle bastards before we were allowed to touch the king and the off tank had to take the moogle tank adds away from the party," - Remember. Remember that we could target the lil moogles.
I remember. One of my first extremes. Divide and conquer
Good times!
i remember how quickly it all devolved into chaos when nobody marked the ads
The old one became "just aoe everything down at the same time" so this became harder and a lot cooler. I like it.
Apart from a few slightly tweeked mechanics such as Pom-Meteor, they seem to have updated the mechanic markers to standard markers, red glow for tank buster, purple circle for spread away etc. Many ARR trials have/had icons unique to their fights, despite the mechanic needed to be done being the same. Once they started to standardise markers/prompts from around the HW expansion onwards, they never really went back to older ARR trials etc to update them, and it seems they are finally doing this now as I noticed in "Sohm Al" the other day, that the T-rex boss in there now has standard stack/spread markers and not just a red/blue arrow indicating the same mechanic.
I love how people forget this. But you are now keenly aware that GKMM now fights like Thordan Extreme. Summoning his minions to do aoes while you beat down the boss.
I like this change because it lets players get introduced to the new mechanics they're going to see for the rest of the game. I know some of the end game mechanics murdered me & other FC members several times during our learning phases because mechanics like those timed AOEs would only give u seconds to react before activating despite being brand new mechanics
I like these changes. There's more mechanics but now it's telegraphed better for newer players and these mechanics are great to introduce for the future
I think it's good to introduce these mechanics early game, I remember the first time I saw a double tank stack marker and not knowing what to expect, or when there's meteors that require certain amount of players to soak the damage, or the pushback marker that splits the arena in 2, sure after you see them 2-3 times you get the mechanic, but it's good that they introduce more mechanic dependant and less chaotic, because lets be honest... the trials that were modified were a mess when you are just starting on the game lmao
Your glam seems to be completely for the new bike, huehue, hope you are having fun!
While it might be less confusing it is I believe synched lower, making killing the moogles in the first phase less face-roll for full geared groups. It takes longer but hardly anyone cared about killing them in order on hard, so the change has brought mechanics you actually need to pay attention to.
The Extreme has not been touched far I see recently. Had to do a WT mission for him. Plus was trying to desynth some gear for demi-materia.
It's impressive they put a double stack in for the tanks, I don't remember seeing one of those until really high levels. It makes sense for the first 8 man though if they want to demonstrate the point of having multiple tanks (without requiring sprout tanks to do a tank swap or something).
I superrr want them to add moogle weapons for all the classes. I adore them and the silly sounds they make when you unsheathe/sheathe. Maybe eventuallyyyy
Just ran this last week with my friends and it was great synched!
While it would be nice if they had some kind of legacy dungeon mode option, the new trial looks far better than the old one which was a bit of a mess.
I really like a lot of the revamps I'm seeing! And I don't think it cuts the difficulty at all. I think what it does is standardize it. Because we don't see a tank stack marker until the Level 89 Trial, and a lot of what the Good King is doing in this fight is very reminiscent of the Level 60 MSQ trial.
If they continue to slowly comb through a lot of these older fights to bring mechanics up to the kind of standardized code they've found for themselves, I would absolutely love that!
as far as i know they changed the apperance of the moogles at 1st phase aswell, we used to have the blm spawn after the innitial moogle went down and the whm, war and a third (cant remember which) later on. quite interesting though how they changed it... also quite confusing when you're used to it since ARR days XD like the oldies some of us are
I was just reading the tweet about this when I got the notification for this vid ;)
I didnt realize they changed it when i got placed in it for roulette
Much prefer this to the old trial.
That's looks so much better for teaching mechanics! I kinda want to queue for it now and see how it is synced. :3
I enjoy the changes bc it feels like a real fight now, where it couldn't before with all the stat squishing and power creep going on. It also cuts back on the actual chaos it used to have while still maintaining its chaotic feeling.
Looks a lot more interesting. I'm still suffering ptsd from having to farm items to fight it back in 1.0 lol
I do have to wonder how one would go about learning Pom Cure, now, for Blue Mage. I don't think I saw it cast at all by the white mage moogle. Is EX now the only way?
In some other arr content, mostly guildhests i think, if you focus the 'boss' the fight ends so the old version of this fight would always trip up the groups I'd get.
There'd usually be 1 or 2 wipes because people weren't paying attention and focused the king or a the tanks weren't doing what they needed to do so the healers got murdered.
It's interesting, the changes make things way less creatively janky in how you deal with bosses but more consistent and smooth in the progression of teaching players mechanics that they'll face going forward.
On the topic of the difficulty of Thornmarch hard, it just kind of wasn't anymore anyway, I did it as a Warrior pre change and I spent a good chunk of the fight running around like a headless chicken because the Mooglesguard were dying before I could reach them and we had the fight done in no time at all.
What is the earliest part where you get the double tank stack? Besides recent stuff, I don’t recall ever seeing that.
Is there some overview somewhere what all those different markers actually mean, I've only seen some of them? I'm at that point in the story but there is no duty support any more to learn how it works and I don't feel like going in blind and potentially wiping a raid group multiple times.
Check out the HW instances they added NPC duty support to. The Aery has changed.
Vault has been changed on Placements on NPC's now. Normally some area's the NPC's come charging at you at points. Now their at a static spot to pick up.
Trust me no argument from me. I'm verhappy with the change and I think it's better to learn mechanics than run around like a chicken w your head cut off Now, one other trial I wish they would fix in MSQ would be The Crystalis trial. *sighs*
Thornmarch now: "To me, Moogles of light" "You still stand, very kupo"
Looks like it's the same as the other ARR reworks, which is making MUCH better use of mechanics to teach players what to expect in future content
tbh, the old version wasn't really difficult. It was super inconsistent on if you even cleared it purely on the fact that people didn't know how it worked and like a ton of old ARR stuff are one time mechanics. With the new reworks they essentially teach players from a lot earlier in the game to know what to expect later on which I personally appreciate
the 2x tankbuster stack came first in emerald weapon.
I think Thornmarch was changed for the bette,r but I do miss the old Final fight at the end of keeper.
The real question is, can blue mages still get Pom Cure from this fight? I never saw the white mage moggle cast it.
Afaik Extreme still is the same as before, so maybe it's now from there only. Would be a bummer
Considering he one shot his partner, you wouldn't see Pom Cure. Pom Cure is only set to be cast when the partner is damaged, can't heal what's outright dead.
Just do it on ex. Chances of learning is much higher in ex anyway
@@thehurricane6767 As long as you're Sync'd it's 100%. Can't get much higher than that.
.... Double Stack marker? What exactly is that? I'm assuming that's an Extreme/Savage Only thing, as I've not seen it in any of the (Hard) trials or Normal raids.
the red stack is basically a tank stack. Both of the tanks have to go in and take the damage and only the tanks. assuming thats what you were talking about
@@heartfullbutterfly314 Yeah, I knew about the normal tankbuster marker... but I've never seen the double tank stack before.
@@Dhalin yeah it's more seen like you said in late game extreme trials/raids
It will be really nice that I won't see any more wipes because of people DPSing the King and causing a Memento Moogle with all the moogles up for an insta-wipe.
they added the new aoes from shadowbringer and endwalker so thats nice. people are still gonna stand in eveyr aoe though
kinda feels like seat of sacrifice
While I absolutely approve of them changing it to this degree, I also think it kills off one of the most important things to learn. Killing the most problematic thing and how to choose what to kill and the order...Though I doubt it served that much of a purpose as of 6.0 when a couple people could take out the necessary moogle even if the rest were brain deading the fight. At the same time, it's the first trial now and teaches several very common mechanics and the such. So I definitely see the good of the new version of this fight.
On the other hand, I absolutely dread getting this in trial roulette with how damn bloated the kings health is and how horribly boring the fight is now.
thats a very interesting take i always thought thornmarch hard was way too easy before and now it actually has you paying more attention with more emphasis on team work. and personally i always throught the arr trials were way too short making extreme the only fun thing about the arr trials.
I always found thornmarch dreadfully boring before the update. There were no mechanics and can be overwhelming for new players as the first 8 man trial. Target priority is, honestly, too complicated of a concept that is very rarely seen in normal difficulty content. I find the new thornmarch to actually be a more fun fight and something I no longer dread getting in a roulette. It seems like a much better improvement and gives me the feeling of thordan when doing it
I like this version better. there was nothing positive about the old one, also I think now when it is item level synced the adds were dead before they could do anything anyways.
ARR has been too easy since SB. I miss how the mechs Crystal Tower had. It made SHB very memorable ☹
the issue is the bosses need a health adjustment, they aren't surviving long enough for their mechanics to even show up
Extreme mode is still going to be the same
What are the shorts Meoni is wearing?
I thought it was the makai healer short but that dangling belt is off so :C No idea, maybe the island exploration shorts but the right leg ornament is hidden by the boots
yeahhh its the islsnd shorts you get once you get to rank 9 and get all landmark on your island. i just got them today
@@kita6502 Thanks! I got mine when I logged on today too lol
Tbh the original wasn't difficult either, it was just complicated because the signs and feedback weren't appropriate. It was "hard" to know what to do, not to actually do it, which isn't really interesting gameplay wise.
I guess it is good they are revamping old dungeons/trials, but was Thornmarch ever required? I mean I've only done it once when I was just trying to get rid of all the blues. And then once after soloing for song. I just don't see why this one of all trials were updated. I feel like some of the Hildabrand Trials should have been updated first, given that we have to do them.
Maybe it was part of the MSQ and I just don't remember it.
It is part of the MSQ for the quest line leading up from AAR to Heavensward.
Yes, Thornmarch is required. It's part of the MSQ once you've gotten to lvl 50.
They changed it because it’s now the first 8-man trial that in the MSQ (since they change Cape Westwind and Ultima Weapon). It’s actually a good introduction to sprouts about the mechanics.
Yes thornmarch is a required trial
Is expert the same fight too?
the extreme is not changing its the same as it always was
Wait. They made changes to the moggle battle? O.o I had no idea. I straight up just stomp in it without issue unsynced. All to either get a stamp or to get a stamp. No, idea they changed it, lol.
I don't mind that they are changing old fights to be more compliant with their now standardized markers and rules. However, my issue is that the extreme version is kind of left as a vestigial version of the old fight. Anyone doing a blind run and at min ilvl will basically have no basis to work with as mechanics from "hard" don't transfer over and you get no hint at kill order on extreme. Granted, not many people are doing blind/min ilvl runs of old content, nevermind the fact that harder versions of content change enough of the fight that you can't rely on normal as a guide. But, one thing the devs do well is slow introduction of mechanics. This could be like "Here's an attack that'll cleave half the room. Here's an attack that requires everyone spreading apart." Later in the fight, those same attacks can be combined together, so everyone has to move to one side of the room while spreading apart. This applies to going from normal (or "hard" in this trial's case, really it's normal) to extreme/savage. Certain mechanics get reused without telegraphs and at full potential (i.e. already getting mixed and match and such). So normal can be used to hint at potential mechanics in the harder fight, along with figuring out intricacies of those reused mechanics (i.e. how do I know which half the room is going to be cleaved, when I've been reliant on the telegraph? Oh, he's holding his sword over this side of the room). Any big changes or new mechanics that are unique to the harder version get introduced slowly over the fight. It's set up expecting you to have mastered normal mechanics, while getting introduced to hard mechanics.
you do actually get a hint at the kill order you just have to listen carefully. The lyrics in the song tell you the kill order but you are right that extreme should have some tweaks to avoid confusion
So ex got change too?
no extreme trial is still the same
To me, the Moogle extreme trial needs to be changed more than the hard one.. The extreme trial is way too boring and too (I think I just lost my words for the extreme trial)..
just because ppl don t able to NOT attack a mark, it s a shame for me
"A lot easier than the original version.."
As if the original was hard to begin with...
It's nice that they're finally actually teaching people how to play their game instead of a bunch of brainless noobs running around making the game harder for everyone else
This isn't easier for new players. The previous mechanic is to kill the dangerous/troublesome moogles as fast as possible so you do not have to suffer their mechanic, while now it is forced upon you whether you have high dps or not. Good for new players but god damn annoying for veterans.
Heaven forbid the game try and teach new players things, the thing people often use as a point against the game. I imagine it's easier for new players just because it isn't pure chaos.
At this point why not make the bosses hurt themselves? The game no longer has any challenge, that's why I quit. I hate casuals and used to bully them but now they got their way.