Back in 1976 our neighbour Malcolm bought a brand new Princess.He was so proud of it and washed it almost every day.Other neighbours came over to look at it and comment on how cool it was.A couple of weeks later my dad bought a brand new Lotus Elite.Malcolm didn't look happy.
Great extra. Thanks. I worked in Cowley in design office in the mid 80s as part of the BL student/grad programme during the Ambassador, Acclaim, SD1, Maestro, Montego years. A lot of the union issues seemed to be fears about jobs. The govt was only putting cash in to Leyand to invest in technology (think Not The Nine O’Clock News “built by Roberts”). The incoming Maestro/Montego lines were highly mechanised when compared to the SD1 lines that were just across the factory aisle - for example lots of robot welding and weld tagging. I spent a little time seconded to the Industrial Engineering function. These were the guys with stopwatches designing and planning throughput performance. They told us that the new Maestro/Montego body-in-white production lines would only need 10% of the people to build the vehicles due to the mechanisation, and other assembly areas were also being automated in many places. As the SD1 line was being ripped out, 9 out of 10 could see their jobs disappearing. The effect of technology was also being felt in the traditional white-collar design areas as drawing boards and slide rules were being replaced by CAD/CAM.
Thanks - very interesting. This was of course happening to all car companies at the time, but the toxic nature of the relationship at BL only made this problem worse.
I'm sure it was looked at differently somewhere like VW. BL, how can we make the same number of cars with fewer people, VW, how can we use the same number of people to make more cars?
@Paul Queripel You got it right the First time and that goes for all big business. You don't invest in automation to keep and pay the same sized work force. That's the whole point of automation.
One of your best videos ever - spoken from the heart. In 1985 I went all the way to Basingstoke to test drive an Ambassador with a view to buying one but it was terrible. Bought a 5 cylinder Passat instead which was light years ahead. Loved it so much I even spent my wedding night in one at Gatwick airport My own Maxi was pitched up against an Ambassador in 2014 in the classic car press but had to drive the Ambassador for the photo shoot - that too was awful. When I was 17 I loved BL’s innovative engineering talent and frequently wound up my dad in the early seventies by asking “Great British management - what would we do without it? A great deal more”. He dismissed my arguments saying I had no idea how difficult and how much power the unions had and I was just a naive 17 year old Unfortunately what I said turned out to be absolutely true. Spencer Hall Bristol
The disconnect between management and labor was common in the US too. In many companies, US and UK, there were sometimes three dining areas. One for blue collar workers, one for white collar workers, and an executive dining room for the big bosses. There was an interview with a former Pontiac (I believe) exec who said it was possible for him to go to work for the entire week and never make eye contact with, much less talk with, anyone who actually assembled the cars at the plant he worked at. He would go months without physically being in any assembly area unless there was a major problem that needed his attention. Compare this to companies like Kawasaki who require everyone, regardless of the position they are hired for, to work on the assembly line. (60 days I think) This is so they have an understanding that when they ask for a change, or if presented with a problem, they know what they are asking the workers to do. Even after this period it isn't uncommon for higher executives to walk a piece of equipment through the process to see what is being done and how they're doing it.
This is the way to go. I've done back breaking, dead end jobs when I was younger, so when I interact with people doing them I try to make sure I make their job easier, not harder (e.g. I refrain from being rude to a telemarketing person - this may be the only job they can get).
@@LittleCarI agree entirely. Having been an employer for 30 years (about 50 employees in the business) it seemed so obvious. Treat people with respect, try to give them the resources to do the job properly, try to lead by example, offer opportunity to those who want to progress, etc etc. It works, and is rewarding. Staff turnover low, business successful . . . . Not that we avoided any problems of course, but we could overcome them better together. Much more difficult to achieve in large organisations … though some of the Far Eastern industries seem pretty good at it. Entrenched cultural differences may be a lot of the explanation.
I worked with an American who had a job on an auto line (he was to be there 3 year then off). He mentioned the different cafeterias creating a class barrier. He went in them once then took his own lunch. He was there for money, no other reason, so never went along with the culture he did not like. I can see why office workers and men who get dirty are segregated.
Thank you - I really liked your discussion here. As you say, strike action by the unions was just the publicly visible manifestation of deeper management problems and poor industrial relations. I suspect that it was in part a generational thing; most of the senior managers aged in their 50s would have served in the armed forces during and just after WW2. They were used to a 'command and control' organisation where the troops did what they were told without question, however bad the decisions or however difficult the working conditions. The younger people working on the factory floor didn't have that experience and had different expectations of their working lives. Obviously, there are a number of sweeping generalisations in that view. I imagine vast tomes have been written on the subject in the intervening years. Clarkson's video, as others have mentioned, highlighted a number of the issues.
Loved to see you ellaborate your nuanced take on the problems of BL. It also shone through in the main video. As Clarkson once said about this: it was all of them.
@@LittleCar I've been a fan of your videos since you started on here but can't make out wear you are from are you from the UK or US you sound British 🤔 ps I love your video thank 👍🙂
Love the openness and honesty in these videos. Most importantly, good to see you are keeping up your contractual obligations by mentioning the Unions. I think you could actually do a whole management vs union's video and how it changes the UK car industry for ever.
I think you've created a very nice and unique format for your videos with the main video on the main channel and then these unscripted or lightly scripted optional extra videos with your personal takes and opinions on your second channel. I've been here since just before the restart and I very much enjoy following along, hopefully for years to come. Thanks!
Unions are essential. Great to hear you sticking up for them as opposed to lazily bashing them like most motoring journalists do. Without unions we'd all be working 7 day weeks for pittance with no holiday pay or sick pay, no workers rights. Nothing. Its pretty grim that people don't realise that these days. Solidarity!
It's a double edged sword. I personally think they were constraining industry by the 80s, but today I certainly feel that we could do with more collective bargaining to redress the balance of zero hours contracts and the like. In the US it seems you need two jobs just to have a roof over your head, never mind health insurance!
Coming in from Germany for some business in London in the early 80's my British friends had a Princess "sitting around" and where happy to let me use it for my time in London. I was impressed. I was impressed with the nimbleness of this vehicle and the accuracy of the automatic transmission and enjoyed it in and around London for about two month. The car seemed light and accellaration seemed always sufficient. I have fondness for this Princess in my heart & memory. Thanks for the video.
I grew up in Kings Norton, only a few miles from Longbridge and clearly remember seeing all the protests and crowds with loud hailers gathering in Cofton Park. I never understood what it was all about. We had many Leland cars in the 70s and they were all pretty dreadful! Great video as always. Stay safe mate.
Thames TV has a brilliant archive You Tube channel. The clips from Drive-in I find fascinating because they have inadvertently chronicled the decline of BL and the rise foreign car imports to Britain from Europe and Japan.
@@MATTY110981 it’s funny actually. My dad had 3 or 4 BL company cars - Allegros, Marina, Princess. All dismally built cars and then he chose a Mk1 Cavalier. That was a complete departure from the badly built BL cars. Much nicer quality.
A video on the union/management struggles at British Leland and across the UK in general would be most welcome. I don't know much about the issues and how/if they led to the Thatcher years (the first PM I remember) and would enjoy a video in your simple and clear style that tells me more. Also, I love the term "Landcrab" as a name. To me it has two meanings: A dull, ubiquitous vehicle that one sees everywhere or a low-slung desert vehicle that skitters fast and has claws to bite. I'm probably wrong on the second one, but I'm picturing a sand rail kind of like an Ariel Nomad. Great video as always, sir!
There's not much research in these Optional Extra videos - it mostly comes from the research from the main video and my experience. But yeah, a video on the 70s and BL might be good. Needs to be different to the Clarkson one though (which I seem to remember was quite good).
"Crabbing" is never a good trait in a vehicle - it's used to describe a twisted chassis or bent axles where the The rear wheels don't follow the same line as the fronts.
Great additions! My theory about why people called it the Austin Princess after the late ‘75 rebrand is that the most common versions of the Princess had the same front end as the Austin version of the 18-22 Series. The Austin’s front end was the only version of the 3 that survived the rebrand. While the quad round headlight versions were still available after the rebrand, they used the Austin’s hood and didn’t have the Morris or Wolseley grilles between them. Also, “Austin Princess” had been in use until 1957 on the top-line model in the Austin range, as well. So folks probably just ported over the Austin association with the Princess name for the new model in late 1975.
I've worked at various car factories over the years. The quality of what gets churned out is a direct representation of working relationships. My first launch experience was at a problem-child facility. There was so much lieing, massaged data, back door deals, back stabbing, and old boys clubs. Honest hard-working people who tried to fix issues were blocked at every step of the way by individuals who exerted whatever power they had to slow things down, either to work more overtime, milk more money from the mother ship, or just to feel superior to another human being. The only two times I lost my temper at someone and shouted in the last ten years, was during my short stint at that bad factory. I'm in North America, and always thought BL cars were interesting, but my experiences in the industry have affected my perspective. When sad suppliers send parts designed by sad engineers to be assembled by sad unions, you get sad cars that get bought by sad customers.
I think that is probably true of so many organisations. Unfortunately BL became an old whore riddled with just about every possible problem and industrial disease going. If it had been a horse a vet would have put it out of its misery by shooting it. I felt so sorry for Michael Edwards trying to turn around that hopeless mess. GM had many similar problems but on a much bigger scale however hopefully they will just about be able to save themselves (having sucked up a great deal of taxpayers cash).
By the time the Ambassador came around in the 1980s the car was about right (except for that appalling looking front grill - the round headlights were far better). It was a very advanced looking car when introduced in 1975. I drove a new Ambassador once (rented). It was a superb fast motorway/A road car. Very roomy inside. The hatch meant it was very practical. I never lived with one day to day. All they had to do was get the quality right and that awful front end removed. But the marque was tarnished by the time they got many things right. You cannot blame unions for the front end design, using antiquated B Series engines and the design of the later engines that did not have any space for cooling water between cylinder linings causing a hot spot. Triumph and SAAB (using Triumph engines) used a g'box under the engine, but not using the same oil. BMC (later BL) could not figure this out, with engines and g'boxes burning out fast. All poor management.
I'm from The Netherlands and there was a green Princess in our neighborhood, late '70s/early '80s. I wasn't knowledgeable about cars then (or now) but I knew the car as an Austin Princess, even though it only said Princess on the car.
I remember out in Australia 🇦🇺 they had a Morris Marina that had a larger engine of 2600cc, perhaps they were onto something. This was a 6 cylinder engine from the smaller capacity P76 Leyland car also from Australia 🇦🇺. I'm based in New Zealand 🇳🇿, incidentally I was online last night with SRUK and a subscriber looking for a sump plug 🔌 for a 74 Marina. This made me think of Horopito motors in NZ's "North Island" and I made the distinction between the 4 cylinder ( 🇬🇧 UK & NZ ) & 6 cylinder ( Australia 🇦🇺 ). To know both watch Hubnut whom did a tour in both Australia ( 4 & 6 cylinder Marina's ) and New Zealand 🇳🇿 ( Horopito Motors ). The abbreviation SRUK is of course Salvage Rebuilds UK 🇬🇧 ❤
You raise the question of the 2.3 and 2.6 litre six cylinder engines from the SD1. What many don't realise is that the E Series was used in 2.6 litre firm in Oz, though in RWD applications.
There was a 2.6 litre version of the E6 engine we had here in the P76 that could also have been used. It was pretty torquey and twin carbs could have been bolted up for that bit extra. That would have made the Princess a nice tourer.
Correct, the 2200 6 was based on the 1500 4, and the 2600 based on the 1750. It seems crazy to expect a modern 6 to run will with just a single carb... all the Triumph and Rover 6s had twin carbs. The 2 litre O series engine was enough for the base model Rover 800 of the late 1980s.
I rememebr reading and article by Ronald "Steady" Barker on the updated princess saying what a well sorted car it was and it was a shame it took this long to get it right. He made reference to teh Land Crab saying how he thought it was under developed and on a test he thought the suspension was so bouncy that he went the same distance vertically as he did horizontally.
An excellent vídeo. With a few more details and another lay-out, it would become class material for any first-rate Business School . A Famous Harvard BUSINESS School Professor used to say: "IF A BUS FALLS OFF A CLIFF,, DON'T BLAIM THE PASSENGERS". By comparing VW Labour Relations with BL's environment, you touched the Million Dollars Answer. A Féw exception aside, BL made lousy cars. And MANAGEMENT was unable to assuage their Workers" grievances. The chaps who went to South Korea didn't land in a Magic Country. Strikes there could bcome rather violent -- however, disputes were quickly resolved. In sum, BL had some First-Rate Managers -- unfortunately, their voices were ignored at the Top Floors . By the way the same Hara-Kiri took place at the British Motorcycle Industry, driven into the Cold Waters of the Ocean by Japonese and Italian products And to a very large extent, across the Atlantic Detroit was "Getting High Marks" driving the American Car Industry Into the Ground. With your smarts and sense of humour , here you have material for a nice bunch of great videos. Warm Regards and 1.000 Thanks, A.
Cars have personalities by their appearance and can give an impression of mood. For example the Ambassador looks depressed probably resigned its fate. The upmarket Austin Allegro in beige with the Vanden Plas front grille however could remind one of Boris Johnson both being publicised as being more successful than they were.
The Triumph engines in the SD1 were rear wheel drive so would have needed a new gearbox solution engineering to get them to fit the Ambassador or Princess
I think a lot of the name thing comes comes from the Logbook (V5). On the whole the section with make would be filled in by the dealer on registration and this would appear on the tax disc until 2014 when they stopped being used. The most common was Austin followed by Austin Morris followed by Morris and for a short time BL Cars. Anyone looking at the tax disc would therefore more often than not see the name Austin ( or Austin Morris) next to the Make section on the windscreen.
It wouldn't and those engines also had a poor reputation. In the Metropolitan Police they had 3.5 V8 SD1's as traffic patrol cars and SD1 2.6 vehicles as area cars. The cars with the smaller 6 cylinder Triumph derived engines ended up costing a hell of a lot more to operate then the larger V8 cars. Using the smaller engine turned out to be a completely false economy due to their poor reliability and horrendous fuel consumption when thrashed (not helped by the automatic gearbox Met policy insisted upon being fitted). The Rover 2.6 couldn't catch a cold let alone an Astra GTE or Renault 5 turbo.
Improvements were made to Ambassador specifications in the Autumn of 1983 to bring it into line with the rest of the Austin Rover range, including a new dash moulding to accept new, but poorly fitting, wood inserts to the Vanden Plas. In fact Austin Rover spent a lot of money up-speccing and improving the Ambassador for August '83 but by November 1983 production ceased, though they remained in the brochures until April 1984 so if you bought a new Ambassador in Spring '84 it would have been a least 6 months old even if it was heavily discounted.
I would have thought that th eRover SD1 6 cylinder engines were too long to fit transversely into the Princess/Ambassador. Wasn't the Princess gearbox in sump like a Mini?
I used to have a Princess in the late 80s/early 90s. Quality problems? Check. The boot lid was bulging, causing large gaps. The Hydragas system was leaking causing the car to list. Parts were low-quality and would just fail. Electric problems? Check. At one stage the engine couldn’t be turned off. A faulty hazard warning light switch turned out to be the cause - I still can’t figure that one out. But. Design and management problems? Check. * The engine was undersized, underpowered, and over-age. Open crankcase ventilation, poor fuel economy, plenty of room in the engine bay for more. And the oil filter shot out like a torpedo underneath the car just waiting to be punctured by something protruding enough from the ground. * No fifth gear, even when production began two years into the oil crisis? Come on. What were they thinking? * No hatchback! Honestly, how can you decide not to fit a hatchback to a hatchback-looking car? Who in their right mind would decide to buy a Princess because it had no hatchback? If that’s what they wanted, they’d have bought a three-box. And they did. In short, the futuristic design was making promises the car’s innards couldn’t keep. And that could easily have been avoided by a management appointed on merit rather than pedigree and performance in classical languages at Oxbridge. BL comes across as a Tower of Babel where people at different levels clearly were incapable of communicating with one another. Or with the outside world. It could have been a great car. It’s such a shame that it wasn’t.
It looks like a really cool car now... Few weeks ago i saw one advertised for sale in my country. They have always been quite rare here in Holland. Mainly German and French cars were sold here. And Swedisch of course. Sadly it's the "bad quality reputation" of British cars, and the strikes i also remember hearing in my childhood in the seventies/eighties. Indeed a bad reputation is hard to overcome. Our national pride "DAF" (later on Volvo) never managed to get rid of it's reputation of being an 'old folks' car . Looking at the Princess and the Rover SD1 i see the Renault 20 and 30 and the Citroen CX which were far more common here.
How come the Princess didn’t have a 5-speed gearbox at any point during its production run, even though the E-series engine in the Princess 2200 was capable of being fitted with a 5-speed?
A possible compromise at launch in 1975 would have been to use the 1750 E series twin carb Maxi engine with its 5 speed gearbox and have the 2200 6 cylinder engine as auto only. That 5 speed box wasn't the strongest though and was well known for its awkward gear change.
It was typical of the day it was an attitude on both sides of us and them it was quite obvious that the workers could see the fault could see what could be done to put right but us and then meant we don’t listen
Ferraro Roche - like Perrier water and Matteus Rose - a means for the upwardly mobile to differentiate themselves from the common herd! Lol! How times have changed!
Hi. I think your next Big Car Little Car video should be Hyundai Pony / Excel. Their quality was not great but they started the path of Korean motor industry gradual world dominance.
Yeah, I've been thinking about that. Not for a bit though - after the next video I'm planning to take a month off as I've been going 2½ years on these videos without much of a break.
Would it be fair to suggest that a restored, properly assembled Princess or, for that matter any BL vehicle would demonstrate that they were basically good cars which, as we all know, could and should have been so? Please do a video or series of videos on BL, perhaps also on BMC and Leyland cars pre merger which could explain the mess BL became. It seems obvious now that more (or any) efforts should have been made post merger to sort out the them (Austin) and us (Morris) dealers let alone Wolseley, making them realize there's no longer "them and us" just all us. I suspect that had the various Marques (Leyland's Triumph and Rover say) still had their own facilities like Jaguar, they may have also been able to have been separated from BL and probably exiist today. Well done Andy, always great and informative videos.
Thanks John. There would be lots of research to get the BL video right, but it might be interesting. But for now I'll take a break from the British malaise of the 70s. It can get depressing!
Regarding the labor issues: you can only juggle so many chain saws before you get overwhelmed. You highlighted the complicated and varied issues that Britain’s auto industry had to deal with in the 70s that set the conditions for its eventual demise. The Export or Die guidance was good and should have set them up for success. The initial acceptance of mostly British sports cars could/should have been followed up with more product suited for the targeted market. As the driving conditions between Britain and the US were night and day, just bringing over existing models, even in the pre-NHTSA/EPA era just wasn’t going to work. So they didn’t have the product design, there were way too many overlapping cars, and then you throw in poor assembly quality and you are doomed. The Big 3 overcame lackadaisical quality issues primarily because they were big enough to weather the storm and later by emulating Toyota, Honda and Nissan procedures. Eventually too the UAW understood that they had to be partners and not adversaries. I love my 69 TR6 but when you hop in a one year later Datsun 240Z you realize the gap that has to be filled. Unfortunately the TR7, even though it sold OK, didn’t revitalize the image of British autos in the mainstream. So now, the remaining British Nameplates, owned by mostly foreign concerns, are high end luxury vehicles and quite good. I’d say the best in the world. You can drive your Jaguar or Range Rover, Bentley, Rolls or Aston Martin to any upscale club in town and the valet parks you in a premium space. You don’t get that with even the full zoom S Class or 7 Series. Can Britain get back into the car game? One hopes so. But what’s remaining in British hands to build from?
I think perhaps your resume of BL's problems rather misses the point that each of its constituents parts were historically major car manufacturers in their own right. Combining them in what was in reality a shrinking market was bound to be a huge organisational issue. It was never fully addressed until it became a crisis and by then it was too late. I may be wrong but I thought ADO was a carry over from the original Austin/Morris merger and stood for Austin Design Office.
The union strikes are an interesting subject. I always thought it kind of broke the British Industry. Specially with Margret Thatcher who went straight full on to battle with it. I'm too young and not from the UK to understand it really but I find it very interesting.
My personal opinion is the unions were too big for their boots - unilaterally stopping Britain to get what they wanted (the winter of discontent of 78/79). Thatcher had he faults (especially towards the end of her leadership), but she knocked the unions down to size. From what I've read British industry was too large and inefficient. It had been propped up for years (nationalisation for many of the industries began because they were losing money and needed to be restructured). Once the damns burst in the 80s industry came crashing down with massive unemployment, and Thatcher got blamed for destroying British industry, when really it needed the market to restructure it into what worked and what didn't. But this is more my opinion, and not based on full research, so I wouldn't put this sort of thing in a video. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise if anyone can point me to trusted sources.
@@LittleCar - With all due respect - and this is something that was deliberately punted down the memory hole by the likes of Thatcher and Murdoch - the industrial troubles that plagued the UK car industry (and BL/AR in particular) in the '70s and early '80s were at least equally a consequence of a top-heavy management structure failing to grasp how times were changing - for one thing, they no longer had a captive market in the Commonwealth - and a reflexive tendency to be penny-wise and pound-foolish. A classic example of the latter was management's insistence that the Allegro re-use the E-Series engine with gearbox in sump and the heating system from the Marina, which necessitated the raising of the bonnet line and fatally compromising Harris Mann's styling. Re-working the power and transmission layout may have incurred more of an initial expense, but the end result would have been a car that at least looked the part while the cable-operated gear linkage bugs were being ironed out.
Thatcher and Reagan conspired to offshore UK and USA industry to the Far East. The fallout, Inner city blight, was an Anglo/American phenomena. The idea was to have basic items made cheaper elsewhere while the UK/USA looked to high tech/finance/consulting services served by highly educated populations. The average car is a basic mass produced item, not worthy of being made in the high labour costs USA/UK. Swathes of British and US industrial cities were blighted creating untold misery. The blight caused Michael Moore in the USA to make films countering it. Putting all your eggs in one basket, financial services, was dangerous. As we saw in the 2008 crash. Germany survived better as its economy was still largely manufacturing. Irrespective, we still need things to be made.
@@JDMNINJA851 I never had a British car that was bad to start. Keep the plugs and points gapped properly. No problems. Electronic ignition made it far better in all cars. What was the kettle for,?
I think BL was biting more than they could chew. When they bought the BMC/BMH in the late 60's, not only they've inherited a boatload of marques (Austin, Morris, Wolseley, MG and Riley; I think Jaguar was also a BMC/BMH owned) on top of their own brands (Leyland, Standard, Triumph and Rover), but also every single BMC/BMH issue that came with it. And the coup de grâce IMO was BL's refusal of Roy Haynes's proposal to use common platform for all their cars as Ford and Vauxhall/Opel were beginning to do the same and would've saved BL some headaches. And the reality is that every new car they churned out was basically eanting up the market share of BL's other cars. TL;DR - British Leyland was one huge mess from start to finish.
I was surprised that the CD value of the Princess was only 0.404 which was not impressive considering the promise of the Wedge design and hiding the wipers. Perhaps they didn't pay attention to the underside of the car. I'm not a BL hater and so was dissappointed to read this.
To be honest, drag for many 70s cars was bad. But yes, they didn't pay enough attention to improving it. The Citroën SM, released 5 years earlier was way better.
@@LittleCar Indeed, the French have been good on drag for a long time. I noticed how slippery the Renault Dauphine (1964) looks even today and of course early Saabs were impressive too (although looks can be misleading). Both of these cars' engines are in mint condition ....... ua-cam.com/video/8RZgvq2rh0w/v-deo.html (there's another video on this guy's channel of the Marina starting up with the bonnet up and the engine sounds Mint if a little lumpy) Sorry I've always had a soft spot for Marinas, especially the 1.8 having grown up with them😁
Nah it really was mostly the unions. My gran always said that my grandad, who worked on car assembly lines all his life (BL and Peugeot) used to be so frustrated at not being able to work. She said that he and his friends were happy with their jobs, their pay and their conditions but the pressure and intimidation to strike, which often came from people who didn’t even work on the factories, made them genuinely scared for their families if they didn’t go along with the union line. He told her that the unions would one day mean the end of the British car industry - and he lived to see it happen.
Great shop window and adverts, nothing good in the shop. Once the public realised they had been had with bad quality that was it for BL. From 40s and 50s made in England prestige, to 70s BL strikes, game over. Saab solved the problems, BL workers were on strike. Institutional rot and lack of government interest was the nail in the coffin for BL. Great shame, too much self preservation is a bad thing.
I think the lack of harmony between management and workers I think is a run on of the entrenched class system. I grew up in England in a working class family, so I was always led to believe management were scum...:.....and that we are in one group, they are in another.... and the chasm cannot be closed. As I’ve got older I realize and agree with you that it is more nuanced. I think we have reached the same conclusion but started on different sides of the same coin.
Tragically those attitudes broke British industry in the 70’s & 80’s. Strikes, attempts to bring down elected governments ( Heath & Thatcher) , abysmal workmanship, sabotage on production lines. Coupled with poor management, lack of investment , often poor education. Generalisations I know,and doubtless honourable exceptions. But that generation, children in the war, elderly now, has little to be proud of. Much has changed since, and I now can own two excellent British-assembled cars. Unfortunately the class divides haven’t resolved - as our politicians demonstrate daily with the likes of Rayner, Rees-Mogg etc etc .
@@wyndhammh6170 ... and it's getting worse, only now because of Thatch and her cronies, everybody is either so far in debt or wants to be (over inflated house prices) that nobody can afford to have any unpaid time off work.
I'm a long time follower of the regular videos, but I have to say that I like this format where you discuss more freely cons & pros regarding the different car models and how they came about and were executed. I remember that my uncle once in the late 70's bought a Rover SD1 3500 Vanden Plas. It was a very elegant car with absolutely all equipment (sunroof, electric windows, automatic transmission, air conditioning, etc.), but it did not take long before serious problems with the car appeared (mainly electrical problems and rust). An acquaintance of the family at the same time had a BMW E9 3.0 CSi from 1974 (ie at that time a 5-6 year old car), but even though it was older than my uncle's Rover, it appeared to be a newer car and with a far better perceived quality. I therefore believe that you are absolutely right that the problems British car industry had at this time actually started with the decisions made by the management. Through the 70s and 80s, the German car manufacturers and especially Mercedes-Benz and BMW took over the part of the market that Jaguar and Rover in particular had previously dominated. Better design and mechanics were certainly an important reason, but most important of all was durability and minimal flaws and shortcomings. Keep up the good work :)
Thanks - I think this one came out well. The next video won't have an Optional Extra, as it features Patrick le Quément, so Little Car will feature the whole interview. But I intend to do more Optional Extras in the new year.
@@LittleCar Thank you for the answer. I look forward to the interview with Patrick le Quément. He is really interesting and thought far out of the box when he was a car designer for Renault in particular, but also Ford with the Sierra model (which was completely groundbreaking in terms of design when it came on the market).
I agree - great video and a good explainer that it wasn't all the fault of the trade unions, even though they got the blame. I've heard stories of BL managers going into their office and sleeping pretty much half the day - it was a cushy number for them, so why change it, even if the company was sinking?!
I worked in the New Zealand meat industry in the 80s. The same dysfunctional attitude of the unions and bloated management resulted in the industry collapsing at the end of the 80's Voluntary union membership in the early 90's resulted in workers telling the unions to take a hike. We hired employment lawyers on a retainer who actually acted in our interest. I rejoined the union around 2000 as their attitude had dramatically improved. The biggest problem of the industrial unrest of the 70's and 80's is that it became normalised. It wasn't cured until the collapse of the industries affected.
Unions are an incredibly important and sadly necessary thing - if they do their job. Good to hear NZ unions having gotten their shit together! I think the Germans kind of did the right thing by requiring that union representatives must be part of the supervisory board and the workers get to elect certain fractions (depending on size, iirc) of the board. Makes it more of a team effort between management and employees rather than the classic antagonistic up vs. down relationship.
I remember our three gaffers having a Wolseley version each back in 1975 (Maroon / White / Dark Green). I thought the twin round lights on the Morris and Wolseley versions looked a lot better than the trapezoidal lights they eventually went with.
I always get the impression that BL was doomed from day one. BL’s product line up seemed confusing, had too many vehicles competing against each other for the same market and built on different platforms and engines.
@@LittleCar just that little video piqued my interest..thank you for your work & to better let me understand the British car industry..& the history of some of my faves..( US based Volvo/ Toyota truck owner)....& maybe a Boxster soon...( there’s one for ya)...or the Cayenne..( the suv that saved Porsche...Cheers!
I have a Princess my utter dream car, it took so long to find her! I love hearing all the back ground about the company and how she came about! Mine was assembled in Nelson New Zealand :) we drove it there for her 40 th birthday!
The problem with the Unions was that they assumed (wrongly) that the government would always bail out the companies therefore the Union could ask for pretty much whatever it wanted and went on strike when it didn't get its way. It was only later when various industries had effectively ceased to exist that people realised the folly the Unions were pulling and things returned to an even keel.
I'd love to see a video on the industrial relations, or rather lack of, of the 1970s. I wasn't just British Leyland, but Rootes/Chrysler also had a pretty torrid time. I too remember many strikes from the 1970s, which resulted in us having huge fires in our front garden (erm?) where the street's rubbish was burned. We also had a coal fire, kerosene lamps and stoves. Segregation between management and employees is always bad and resentment brews.
Brilliant video - really enjoyable - and touches on some big questions - would absolutely love to hear you talk about the why BL/Rover Group came to an end.
Loved both videos, and I too remember the power cuts, and shortages, and the news - strike after strike. My Grandad bought an Ambassador in 1982, I loved it - we didn't own a car, so any car was great!😆
I had a 1978 British racing green Austin Princess 1800 with a brown vinyl roof in the late 80's. Dreadful car. Front wheel sheared off when driving and went into a ditch, clutch went, fuel pump went, big end went, no power steering. My friends brother sold it to me and felt guilty as it was so awful. It did come in useful for the amount of space in the back ;) The ambassador looked more dated than the princess was! Would have loved to have and SD1 powered engine in it
I like the relaxed style of your optional extras. Interesting comparison with the SAAB 900. I think the difference was that unlike the Princess, it was thought of as a quality car. No matter how attractive the Princess was in its day (and it was), it felt cheap and nasty as soon as you got into it.
The Jeremy Clarkson Car Years video about why British Leyland failed is pretty good in my opinion and he interviews people that were directly involved in it all and it gives a lot of insight about all the things that went wrong inside the company. You can find the video on UA-cam.
We had a princess when I was a kid. We must have got lucky and got one of the good ones because it wasn't particularly bad for reliability or rust, that I remember. A camel at longleat kicked the door in and some monkeys ripped the vinyl roof off but the car itself soldiered on for many years.
After having a very early Wolesley 18/22 to try (registration A1!) to try out, my dad had two as his company cars as head of purchasing with Dunlop. LVP 444P and EOM 692V. Both were 2200HLS automatics. EOM 692V had Denovo tyres. We always knew them as Austin Princesses.
Yes. The "industrial relations" problem at British Leyland required two participants to make things as bad as they were in the 1980s. But the unions had a long-term strategy in the 1960s, which was extremely shrewd. Management was offered industrial peace (always rather short-term) in exchange for accepting practices which surrendered more and more power to the unions. This was stupid, but it was seen as tolerable because industrial relations was about to become an industry in its own right - with university professors and so on. It was as if the perpetual industrial strife was a kind of sociological phenomenon which needed experts to study it. In fact, it just needed management to stand up to the unions, as we saw later when Mrs Thatcher rebuffed similar ambitions in the miners' unions leader, and management under Michael Edwardes stood strong in the car industry. This had been going on since the 1950s, when shipbuilding was the battlefield. We should remember just what trade union aims were. The unions had a wider platform than the minutiae of pay deals and terms of employment. The unions wanted to establish a communist Britain, and if destroying capitalist Britain industry by industry was a step on that road, then so be it. Britain's shipbuilding industry WAS destroyed, and the socialists had moved on to target the motor industry. Have no doubt about it, the long drawn out demise of the British car industry was all part of establishing a Soviet-like economy in this country. The socialists were winning.
I think the unions battles in the 1970s were, as you say, mostly cultural - a move towards the end of such a pronounced class system. I can remember the shocked expression running around in the mid 70s of 'My chauffeur has a Rolex Oyster - I can't believe it', which catches it well. The end of the period in which the lower classes should know their place and keep in it - and the people who said this really meaning it.
Not just BMC but also Ford. In the early 80's I was paid to photograph a conveyor belt that connected a giant press for door panels to the rest of the production line. The day before I arrived with the client the papers were full of the news that workers were striking on the new Escort production line. When we arrived we found out that the width of our conveyor was to small to safely collect the panels from the press and management were asking the workers to manually push the doors onto the conveyor and hold them until they reached the correct sized belt on the rest of the system. This was against work and safety rules and was dam right dangerous and so the workers refused, especially as it was the management's fault as they had supplied the wrong information to my client. Needless to say the news papers didn't see it that way and put all the blame on the unions. The car was the Erica/Escort.
I’m more Motorcycles rather than cars but those the same thing with British Leyland and a British bike industry Umberslade Hall marmalade Hall as the British bike industry used to call it they had North a lot to answer for enjoy your programs Michael
The Ambassadors party! You are spoiling us little car. Then there was the yuppy snob appeal in the 80s of everything foreign being better than British even when it wasn't all quite sad really.
Excellent, I do like your Optional Extra posts, thanks 😁 Just to add, in my 55 years of driving/car ownership the worst car I’ve ever had was a Morris Marina Coupe 1.3. Against that, one of the best was an H reg ‘69 Mini Cooper 998 👍
Management acted like it was still the Victorian era where workers were there to be exploited, and if you do like it then shove off. We'll replace you with someone else. It was the 1970's, not the 1870's.
Back in 1976 our neighbour Malcolm bought a brand new Princess.He was so proud of it and washed it almost every day.Other neighbours came over to look at it and comment on how cool it was.A couple of weeks later my dad bought a brand new Lotus Elite.Malcolm didn't look happy.
Love the Lotus Elite
Which one failed to proceed first?
Great extra. Thanks. I worked in Cowley in design office in the mid 80s as part of the BL student/grad programme during the Ambassador, Acclaim, SD1, Maestro, Montego years. A lot of the union issues seemed to be fears about jobs. The govt was only putting cash in to Leyand to invest in technology (think Not The Nine O’Clock News “built by Roberts”). The incoming Maestro/Montego lines were highly mechanised when compared to the SD1 lines that were just across the factory aisle - for example lots of robot welding and weld tagging. I spent a little time seconded to the Industrial Engineering function. These were the guys with stopwatches designing and planning throughput performance. They told us that the new Maestro/Montego body-in-white production lines would only need 10% of the people to build the vehicles due to the mechanisation, and other assembly areas were also being automated in many places. As the SD1 line was being ripped out, 9 out of 10 could see their jobs disappearing. The effect of technology was also being felt in the traditional white-collar design areas as drawing boards and slide rules were being replaced by CAD/CAM.
Thanks - very interesting. This was of course happening to all car companies at the time, but the toxic nature of the relationship at BL only made this problem worse.
I'm sure it was looked at differently somewhere like VW. BL, how can we make the same number of cars with fewer people, VW, how can we use the same number of people to make more cars?
@Paul Queripel
You got it right the First time and that goes for all big business. You don't invest in automation to keep and pay the same sized work force. That's the whole point of automation.
One of your best videos ever - spoken from the heart.
In 1985 I went all the way to Basingstoke to test drive an Ambassador with a view to buying one but it was terrible. Bought a 5 cylinder Passat instead which was light years ahead. Loved it so much I even spent my wedding night in one at Gatwick airport
My own Maxi was pitched up against an Ambassador in 2014 in the classic car press but had to drive the Ambassador for the photo shoot - that too was awful.
When I was 17 I loved BL’s innovative engineering talent and frequently wound up my dad in the early seventies by asking “Great British management - what would we do without it? A great deal more”. He dismissed my arguments saying I had no idea how difficult and how much power the unions had and I was just a naive 17 year old
Unfortunately what I said turned out to be absolutely true.
Spencer Hall Bristol
The perceptions of a free thing young mind against a media conditioned mind. 🙂
The disconnect between management and labor was common in the US too. In many companies, US and UK, there were sometimes three dining areas. One for blue collar workers, one for white collar workers, and an executive dining room for the big bosses. There was an interview with a former Pontiac (I believe) exec who said it was possible for him to go to work for the entire week and never make eye contact with, much less talk with, anyone who actually assembled the cars at the plant he worked at. He would go months without physically being in any assembly area unless there was a major problem that needed his attention.
Compare this to companies like Kawasaki who require everyone, regardless of the position they are hired for, to work on the assembly line. (60 days I think) This is so they have an understanding that when they ask for a change, or if presented with a problem, they know what they are asking the workers to do. Even after this period it isn't uncommon for higher executives to walk a piece of equipment through the process to see what is being done and how they're doing it.
This is the way to go. I've done back breaking, dead end jobs when I was younger, so when I interact with people doing them I try to make sure I make their job easier, not harder (e.g. I refrain from being rude to a telemarketing person - this may be the only job they can get).
@@LittleCarI agree entirely. Having been an employer for 30 years (about 50 employees in the business) it seemed so obvious. Treat people with respect, try to give them the resources to do the job properly, try to lead by example, offer opportunity to those who want to progress, etc etc. It works, and is rewarding. Staff turnover low, business successful . . . . Not that we avoided any problems of course, but we could overcome them better together. Much more difficult to achieve in large organisations … though some of the Far Eastern industries seem pretty good at it. Entrenched cultural differences may be a lot of the explanation.
I worked with an American who had a job on an auto line (he was to be there 3 year then off). He mentioned the different cafeterias creating a class barrier. He went in them once then took his own lunch. He was there for money, no other reason, so never went along with the culture he did not like.
I can see why office workers and men who get dirty are segregated.
Thank you - I really liked your discussion here. As you say, strike action by the unions was just the publicly visible manifestation of deeper management problems and poor industrial relations. I suspect that it was in part a generational thing; most of the senior managers aged in their 50s would have served in the armed forces during and just after WW2. They were used to a 'command and control' organisation where the troops did what they were told without question, however bad the decisions or however difficult the working conditions. The younger people working on the factory floor didn't have that experience and had different expectations of their working lives. Obviously, there are a number of sweeping generalisations in that view. I imagine vast tomes have been written on the subject in the intervening years. Clarkson's video, as others have mentioned, highlighted a number of the issues.
Loved to see you ellaborate your nuanced take on the problems of BL. It also shone through in the main video. As Clarkson once said about this: it was all of them.
Yeah - it might make a full video if I do some more research about it.
Please make a video on BL. Your view on it will be interesting
Clarkson's video piece "Who Killed the British Car Industry" is excellent.
@@LittleCar I've been a fan of your videos since you started on here but can't make out wear you are from are you from the UK or US you sound British 🤔 ps I love your video thank 👍🙂
@@shyguy2189 I'm from the UK, but live in the US.
Love the openness and honesty in these videos.
Most importantly, good to see you are keeping up your contractual obligations by mentioning the Unions.
I think you could actually do a whole management vs union's video and how it changes the UK car industry for ever.
Gotta mention the unions!
I think you've created a very nice and unique format for your videos with the main video on the main channel and then these unscripted or lightly scripted optional extra videos with your personal takes and opinions on your second channel. I've been here since just before the restart and I very much enjoy following along, hopefully for years to come. Thanks!
Thanks Miegel. I'm enjoying the unscripted bits. We'll see if it continues to work.
@@LittleCar Yeh it will if you keep to cars an not dig into other territory like Unions
@@ramblingrob4693 You may be disappointed. I like talking about what comes to mind. And these videos are more "opinion", so you're going to get that!
I'm reminded of "Are You Being Served" with the workers' cafeteria and the executive dining room.
Unions are essential. Great to hear you sticking up for them as opposed to lazily bashing them like most motoring journalists do. Without unions we'd all be working 7 day weeks for pittance with no holiday pay or sick pay, no workers rights. Nothing. Its pretty grim that people don't realise that these days. Solidarity!
It's a double edged sword. I personally think they were constraining industry by the 80s, but today I certainly feel that we could do with more collective bargaining to redress the balance of zero hours contracts and the like. In the US it seems you need two jobs just to have a roof over your head, never mind health insurance!
Really enjoying the Optional Extra series, great to hear personal thoughts on these stories
Coming in from Germany for some business in London in the early 80's my British friends had a Princess "sitting around" and where happy to let me use it for my time in London. I was impressed. I was impressed with the nimbleness of this vehicle and the accuracy of the automatic transmission and enjoyed it in and around London for about two month. The car seemed light and accellaration seemed always sufficient. I have fondness for this Princess in my heart & memory. Thanks for the video.
I grew up in Kings Norton, only a few miles from Longbridge and clearly remember seeing all the protests and crowds with loud hailers gathering in Cofton Park. I never understood what it was all about. We had many Leland cars in the 70s and they were all pretty dreadful! Great video as always. Stay safe mate.
Thames TV has a brilliant archive You Tube channel. The clips from Drive-in I find fascinating because they have inadvertently chronicled the decline of BL and the rise foreign car imports to Britain from Europe and Japan.
@@MATTY110981 it’s funny actually. My dad had 3 or 4 BL company cars - Allegros, Marina, Princess. All dismally built cars and then he chose a Mk1 Cavalier. That was a complete departure from the badly built BL cars. Much nicer quality.
A video on the union/management struggles at British Leland and across the UK in general would be most welcome. I don't know much about the issues and how/if they led to the Thatcher years (the first PM I remember) and would enjoy a video in your simple and clear style that tells me more. Also, I love the term "Landcrab" as a name. To me it has two meanings: A dull, ubiquitous vehicle that one sees everywhere or a low-slung desert vehicle that skitters fast and has claws to bite. I'm probably wrong on the second one, but I'm picturing a sand rail kind of like an Ariel Nomad. Great video as always, sir!
There's not much research in these Optional Extra videos - it mostly comes from the research from the main video and my experience. But yeah, a video on the 70s and BL might be good. Needs to be different to the Clarkson one though (which I seem to remember was quite good).
@@LittleCar
Clarkson blamed everyone.
@@johnburns4017 Maybe, like has been alluded to in this video, he was correct. Everyone WAS to blame.
"Crabbing" is never a good trait in a vehicle - it's used to describe a twisted chassis or bent axles where the The rear wheels don't follow the same line as the fronts.
@@DiscoFang LOL, I know what it is and I didn't even think about it! Yikes!
More ‘Optional Extras’, Please!!!
I love hearing the inside scoop!!
If I have useful stuff to talk about I'll be sure to do more!
Great additions! My theory about why people called it the Austin Princess after the late ‘75 rebrand is that the most common versions of the Princess had the same front end as the Austin version of the 18-22 Series. The Austin’s front end was the only version of the 3 that survived the rebrand. While the quad round headlight versions were still available after the rebrand, they used the Austin’s hood and didn’t have the Morris or Wolseley grilles between them.
Also, “Austin Princess” had been in use until 1957 on the top-line model in the Austin range, as well. So folks probably just ported over the Austin association with the Princess name for the new model in late 1975.
Maybe so. Glad it's not just me!
British Layland is such a Landmark. I had a Morris Marina way back when. Edit: I had my Marina in the late 80's here in Finland.
I've worked at various car factories over the years. The quality of what gets churned out is a direct representation of working relationships. My first launch experience was at a problem-child facility. There was so much lieing, massaged data, back door deals, back stabbing, and old boys clubs. Honest hard-working people who tried to fix issues were blocked at every step of the way by individuals who exerted whatever power they had to slow things down, either to work more overtime, milk more money from the mother ship, or just to feel superior to another human being. The only two times I lost my temper at someone and shouted in the last ten years, was during my short stint at that bad factory. I'm in North America, and always thought BL cars were interesting, but my experiences in the industry have affected my perspective. When sad suppliers send parts designed by sad engineers to be assembled by sad unions, you get sad cars that get bought by sad customers.
I think that is probably true of so many organisations. Unfortunately BL became an old whore riddled with just about every possible problem and industrial disease going. If it had been a horse a vet would have put it out of its misery by shooting it. I felt so sorry for Michael Edwards trying to turn around that hopeless mess. GM had many similar problems but on a much bigger scale however hopefully they will just about be able to save themselves (having sucked up a great deal of taxpayers cash).
By the time the Ambassador came around in the 1980s the car was about right (except for that appalling looking front grill - the round headlights were far better). It was a very advanced looking car when introduced in 1975. I drove a new Ambassador once (rented). It was a superb fast motorway/A road car. Very roomy inside. The hatch meant it was very practical. I never lived with one day to day. All they had to do was get the quality right and that awful front end removed. But the marque was tarnished by the time they got many things right.
You cannot blame unions for the front end design, using antiquated B Series engines and the design of the later engines that did not have any space for cooling water between cylinder linings causing a hot spot. Triumph and SAAB (using Triumph engines) used a g'box under the engine, but not using the same oil. BMC (later BL) could not figure this out, with engines and g'boxes burning out fast. All poor management.
I'm from The Netherlands and there was a green Princess in our neighborhood, late '70s/early '80s. I wasn't knowledgeable about cars then (or now) but I knew the car as an Austin Princess, even though it only said Princess on the car.
I remember out in Australia 🇦🇺 they had a Morris Marina that had a larger engine of 2600cc, perhaps they were onto something.
This was a 6 cylinder engine from the smaller capacity P76 Leyland car also from Australia 🇦🇺.
I'm based in New Zealand 🇳🇿, incidentally I was online last night with SRUK and a subscriber looking for a sump plug 🔌 for a 74 Marina.
This made me think of Horopito motors in NZ's "North Island" and I made the distinction between the 4 cylinder ( 🇬🇧 UK & NZ ) & 6 cylinder ( Australia 🇦🇺 ).
To know both watch Hubnut whom did a tour in both Australia ( 4 & 6 cylinder Marina's ) and New Zealand 🇳🇿 ( Horopito Motors ).
The abbreviation SRUK is of course Salvage Rebuilds UK 🇬🇧 ❤
Fantastic. Really liking the more informal delivery in these Extras.
You raise the question of the 2.3 and 2.6 litre six cylinder engines from the SD1. What many don't realise is that the E Series was used in 2.6 litre firm in Oz, though in RWD applications.
Industrial action was a big part and it didn't help the dealership network but the cars were not engineered properly.
Haha - The Ambassador is spoiling you - with Ferrero Roche! :-)
There was a 2.6 litre version of the E6 engine we had here in the P76 that could also have been used. It was pretty torquey and twin carbs could have been bolted up for that bit extra. That would have made the Princess a nice tourer.
Correct, the 2200 6 was based on the 1500 4, and the 2600 based on the 1750. It seems crazy to expect a modern 6 to run will with just a single carb... all the Triumph and Rover 6s had twin carbs. The 2 litre O series engine was enough for the base model Rover 800 of the late 1980s.
Please do the videos about the unions and downfall of BL
I really liked this! As a contrast to the main video I mean this is a bit more relaxed and informal...
Keep this going! It is a succes path I'm sure!
We'll see!
I had a 2200HLS ( used ) it was without doubt the most comfortable car I ever owned. Not fast, cool of trendy but a car I would happily have again
And it wasn't an O-series
I like these extra videos
Such a sad story ....grasping defeat from the jaws of victory comes to mind ....
This car was so right .... but crippled by the problems at BL.
I rememebr reading and article by Ronald "Steady" Barker on the updated princess saying what a well sorted car it was and it was a shame it took this long to get it right. He made reference to teh Land Crab saying how he thought it was under developed and on a test he thought the suspension was so bouncy that he went the same distance vertically as he did horizontally.
An excellent vídeo.
With a few more details and another lay-out, it would become class material for any first-rate Business School .
A Famous Harvard BUSINESS School Professor used to say:
"IF A BUS FALLS OFF A CLIFF,, DON'T BLAIM THE PASSENGERS".
By comparing VW Labour Relations with BL's environment, you touched the Million Dollars Answer.
A Féw exception aside, BL made lousy cars.
And MANAGEMENT was unable to assuage their Workers" grievances.
The chaps who went to South Korea didn't land in a Magic Country.
Strikes there could bcome rather violent -- however, disputes were quickly resolved.
In sum, BL had some First-Rate Managers -- unfortunately, their voices were ignored at the Top Floors .
By the way the same Hara-Kiri took place at the British Motorcycle Industry, driven into the Cold Waters of the Ocean by Japonese and Italian products
And to a very large extent, across the Atlantic Detroit was "Getting High Marks" driving the American Car Industry Into the Ground.
With your smarts and sense of humour , here you have material for a nice bunch of great videos.
Warm Regards and 1.000 Thanks,
A.
How about doing the Perkins Diesel engine story? A British manufacturing success stories
ADO Austin Design Office Harris Mann did the design for the Allegro, TR7 and Princess. Bad management, lack of investment and old fashion factories.
ADO Austin Design Office is actually the Amalgamated Drawing Office: the "amalgamation" referring back to the merger of Austin and Morris to form BMC.
Cars have personalities by their appearance and can give an impression of mood.
For example the Ambassador looks depressed probably resigned its fate.
The upmarket Austin Allegro in beige with the Vanden Plas front grille however could remind one of Boris Johnson both being publicised as being more successful than they were.
The Triumph engines in the SD1 were rear wheel drive so would have needed a new gearbox solution engineering to get them to fit the Ambassador or Princess
I think a lot of the name thing comes comes from the Logbook (V5). On the whole the section with make would be filled in by the dealer on registration and this would appear on the tax disc until 2014 when they stopped being used. The most common was Austin followed by Austin Morris followed by Morris and for a short time BL Cars. Anyone looking at the tax disc would therefore more often than not see the name Austin ( or Austin Morris) next to the Make section on the windscreen.
It was in Petone in Wellington
Ambasador was front wheel drive. How would the SD1's in-line 6's have fitted?
It wouldn't and those engines also had a poor reputation. In the Metropolitan Police they had 3.5 V8 SD1's as traffic patrol cars and SD1 2.6 vehicles as area cars. The cars with the smaller 6 cylinder Triumph derived engines ended up costing a hell of a lot more to operate then the larger V8 cars. Using the smaller engine turned out to be a completely false economy due to their poor reliability and horrendous fuel consumption when thrashed (not helped by the automatic gearbox Met policy insisted upon being fitted). The Rover 2.6 couldn't catch a cold let alone an Astra GTE or Renault 5 turbo.
Improvements were made to Ambassador specifications in the Autumn of 1983 to bring it into line with the rest of the Austin Rover range, including a new dash moulding to accept new, but poorly fitting, wood inserts to the Vanden Plas. In fact Austin Rover spent a lot of money up-speccing and improving the Ambassador for August '83 but by November 1983 production ceased, though they remained in the brochures until April 1984 so if you bought a new Ambassador in Spring '84 it would have been a least 6 months old even if it was heavily discounted.
I would have thought that th eRover SD1 6 cylinder engines were too long to fit transversely into the Princess/Ambassador. Wasn't the Princess gearbox in sump like a Mini?
I used to have a Princess in the late 80s/early 90s.
Quality problems? Check. The boot lid was bulging, causing large gaps. The Hydragas system was leaking causing the car to list. Parts were low-quality and would just fail.
Electric problems? Check. At one stage the engine couldn’t be turned off. A faulty hazard warning light switch turned out to be the cause - I still can’t figure that one out.
But.
Design and management problems? Check.
* The engine was undersized, underpowered, and over-age. Open crankcase ventilation, poor fuel economy, plenty of room in the engine bay for more. And the oil filter shot out like a torpedo underneath the car just waiting to be punctured by something protruding enough from the ground.
* No fifth gear, even when production began two years into the oil crisis? Come on. What were they thinking?
* No hatchback! Honestly, how can you decide not to fit a hatchback to a hatchback-looking car? Who in their right mind would decide to buy a Princess because it had no hatchback? If that’s what they wanted, they’d have bought a three-box. And they did.
In short, the futuristic design was making promises the car’s innards couldn’t keep. And that could easily have been avoided by a management appointed on merit rather than pedigree and performance in classical languages at Oxbridge. BL comes across as a Tower of Babel where people at different levels clearly were incapable of communicating with one another. Or with the outside world.
It could have been a great car. It’s such a shame that it wasn’t.
It looks like a really cool car now... Few weeks ago i saw one advertised for sale in my country. They have always been quite rare here in Holland. Mainly German and French cars were sold here. And Swedisch of course. Sadly it's the "bad quality reputation" of British cars, and the strikes i also remember hearing in my childhood in the seventies/eighties. Indeed a bad reputation is hard to overcome. Our national pride "DAF" (later on Volvo) never managed to get rid of it's reputation of being an 'old folks' car . Looking at the Princess and the Rover SD1 i see the Renault 20 and 30 and the Citroen CX which were far more common here.
I approve of the Ferrero Rocher
wow, the british automotive history and models lineup is moe complex than the Peloponnesian War.!!!
Last minute, spur of the moment thinking. You'd of fitted in at BL really well. Lol
When I saw the thumbnail I thought "a video about the Austin Princess". And I'm not from New Zealand but the Nehterlands.
Funny how Strike action usually consists of the absence of action....
How come the Princess didn’t have a 5-speed gearbox at any point during its production run, even though the E-series engine in the Princess 2200 was capable of being fitted with a 5-speed?
A possible compromise at launch in 1975 would have been to use the 1750 E series twin carb Maxi engine with its 5 speed gearbox and have the 2200 6 cylinder engine as auto only. That 5 speed box wasn't the strongest though and was well known for its awkward gear change.
It was typical of the day it was an attitude on both sides of us and them it was quite obvious that the workers could see the fault could see what could be done to put right but us and then meant we don’t listen
Ferraro Roche - like Perrier water and Matteus Rose - a means for the upwardly mobile to differentiate themselves from the common herd! Lol! How times have changed!
Blue nun! Imperial Leather! (I still like me a bar of Imperial Leather, but the sticker's a pain).
Hi. I think your next Big Car Little Car video should be Hyundai Pony / Excel. Their quality was not great but they started the path of Korean motor industry gradual world dominance.
Yeah, I've been thinking about that. Not for a bit though - after the next video I'm planning to take a month off as I've been going 2½ years on these videos without much of a break.
@@LittleCar Thanks. You deserve your break. Great videos.
Would it be fair to suggest that a restored, properly assembled Princess or, for that matter any BL vehicle would demonstrate that they were basically good cars which, as we all know, could and should have been so?
Please do a video or series of videos on BL, perhaps also on BMC and Leyland cars pre merger which could explain the mess BL became.
It seems obvious now that more (or any) efforts should have been made post merger to sort out the them (Austin) and us (Morris) dealers let alone Wolseley, making them realize there's no longer "them and us" just all us.
I suspect that had the various Marques (Leyland's Triumph and Rover say) still had their own facilities like Jaguar, they may have also been able to have been separated from BL and probably exiist today.
Well done Andy, always great and informative videos.
Thanks John. There would be lots of research to get the BL video right, but it might be interesting. But for now I'll take a break from the British malaise of the 70s. It can get depressing!
@@LittleCar Fair enough Andy, it was depressing enough at the time.
@@LittleCar For a little light relief (comparatively) you could focus on the coal industry! ; )
@@DiscoFang Oh God, that would be a bad one to do!
Fiat 132 also had FO dash/panel lights
Regarding the labor issues: you can only juggle so many chain saws before you get overwhelmed. You highlighted the complicated and varied issues that Britain’s auto industry had to deal with in the 70s that set the conditions for its eventual demise.
The Export or Die guidance was good and should have set them up for success. The initial acceptance of mostly British sports cars could/should have been followed up with more product suited for the targeted market. As the driving conditions between Britain and the US were night and day, just bringing over existing models, even in the pre-NHTSA/EPA era just wasn’t going to work.
So they didn’t have the product design, there were way too many overlapping cars, and then you throw in poor assembly quality and you are doomed.
The Big 3 overcame lackadaisical quality issues primarily because they were big enough to weather the storm and later by emulating Toyota, Honda and Nissan procedures. Eventually too the UAW understood that they had to be partners and not adversaries.
I love my 69 TR6 but when you hop in a one year later Datsun 240Z you realize the gap that has to be filled. Unfortunately the TR7, even though it sold OK, didn’t revitalize the image of British autos in the mainstream.
So now, the remaining British Nameplates, owned by mostly foreign concerns, are high end luxury vehicles and quite good. I’d say the best in the world. You can drive your Jaguar or Range Rover, Bentley, Rolls or Aston Martin to any upscale club in town and the valet parks you in a premium space. You don’t get that with even the full zoom S Class or 7 Series.
Can Britain get back into the car game? One hopes so. But what’s remaining in British hands to build from?
I think perhaps your resume of BL's problems rather misses the point that each of its constituents parts were historically major car manufacturers in their own right. Combining them in what was in reality a shrinking market was bound to be a huge organisational issue. It was never fully addressed until it became a crisis and by then it was too late.
I may be wrong but I thought ADO was a carry over from the original Austin/Morris merger and stood for Austin Design Office.
The union strikes are an interesting subject. I always thought it kind of broke the British Industry. Specially with Margret Thatcher who went straight full on to battle with it. I'm too young and not from the UK to understand it really but I find it very interesting.
My personal opinion is the unions were too big for their boots - unilaterally stopping Britain to get what they wanted (the winter of discontent of 78/79). Thatcher had he faults (especially towards the end of her leadership), but she knocked the unions down to size. From what I've read British industry was too large and inefficient. It had been propped up for years (nationalisation for many of the industries began because they were losing money and needed to be restructured). Once the damns burst in the 80s industry came crashing down with massive unemployment, and Thatcher got blamed for destroying British industry, when really it needed the market to restructure it into what worked and what didn't.
But this is more my opinion, and not based on full research, so I wouldn't put this sort of thing in a video. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise if anyone can point me to trusted sources.
@@LittleCar - With all due respect - and this is something that was deliberately punted down the memory hole by the likes of Thatcher and Murdoch - the industrial troubles that plagued the UK car industry (and BL/AR in particular) in the '70s and early '80s were at least equally a consequence of a top-heavy management structure failing to grasp how times were changing - for one thing, they no longer had a captive market in the Commonwealth - and a reflexive tendency to be penny-wise and pound-foolish. A classic example of the latter was management's insistence that the Allegro re-use the E-Series engine with gearbox in sump and the heating system from the Marina, which necessitated the raising of the bonnet line and fatally compromising Harris Mann's styling. Re-working the power and transmission layout may have incurred more of an initial expense, but the end result would have been a car that at least looked the part while the cable-operated gear linkage bugs were being ironed out.
Thatcher and Reagan conspired to offshore UK and USA industry to the Far East. The fallout, Inner city blight, was an Anglo/American phenomena. The idea was to have basic items made cheaper elsewhere while the UK/USA looked to high tech/finance/consulting services served by highly educated populations. The average car is a basic mass produced item, not worthy of being made in the high labour costs USA/UK.
Swathes of British and US industrial cities were blighted creating untold misery. The blight caused Michael Moore in the USA to make films countering it. Putting all your eggs in one basket, financial services, was dangerous. As we saw in the 2008 crash. Germany survived better as its economy was still largely manufacturing. Irrespective, we still need things to be made.
@@JDMNINJA851
I never had a British car that was bad to start. Keep the plugs and points gapped properly. No problems.
Electronic ignition made it far better in all cars.
What was the kettle for,?
@@turricanedtc3764 I was talking about the overall British economy. I agree with you with regards to BL, as you can see from what I said in my video.
I think BL was biting more than they could chew. When they bought the BMC/BMH in the late 60's, not only they've inherited a boatload of marques (Austin, Morris, Wolseley, MG and Riley; I think Jaguar was also a BMC/BMH owned) on top of their own brands (Leyland, Standard, Triumph and Rover), but also every single BMC/BMH issue that came with it. And the coup de grâce IMO was BL's refusal of Roy Haynes's proposal to use common platform for all their cars as Ford and Vauxhall/Opel were beginning to do the same and would've saved BL some headaches. And the reality is that every new car they churned out was basically eanting up the market share of BL's other cars. TL;DR - British Leyland was one huge mess from start to finish.
Excellente!
That Rover 2300 / 2600 engine was a dog!
I was surprised that the CD value of the Princess was only 0.404 which was not impressive considering the promise of the Wedge design and hiding the wipers. Perhaps they didn't pay attention to the underside of the car.
I'm not a BL hater and so was dissappointed to read this.
To be honest, drag for many 70s cars was bad. But yes, they didn't pay enough attention to improving it. The Citroën SM, released 5 years earlier was way better.
@@LittleCar Indeed, the French have been good on drag for a long time. I noticed how slippery the Renault Dauphine (1964) looks even today and of course early Saabs were impressive too (although looks can be misleading). Both of these cars' engines are in mint condition ....... ua-cam.com/video/8RZgvq2rh0w/v-deo.html
(there's another video on this guy's channel of the Marina starting up with the bonnet up and the engine sounds Mint if a little lumpy)
Sorry I've always had a soft spot for Marinas, especially the 1.8 having grown up with them😁
You must be older than you look to remember power cuts bread shortage's (:
I was pretty young. Born just in the 70s.
Meanwhile at BL's management: Hmm, the public isnt buying our cars, what do we do?
I know! Lets go in strike.
Maybe if BL's management had gone on strike the company might have done better!
Nah it really was mostly the unions. My gran always said that my grandad, who worked on car assembly lines all his life (BL and Peugeot) used to be so frustrated at not being able to work. She said that he and his friends were happy with their jobs, their pay and their conditions but the pressure and intimidation to strike, which often came from people who didn’t even work on the factories, made them genuinely scared for their families if they didn’t go along with the union line. He told her that the unions would one day mean the end of the British car industry - and he lived to see it happen.
Great shop window and adverts, nothing good in the shop. Once the public realised they had been had with bad quality that was it for BL. From 40s and 50s made in England prestige, to 70s BL strikes, game over. Saab solved the problems, BL workers were on strike. Institutional rot and lack of government interest was the nail in the coffin for BL. Great shame, too much self preservation is a bad thing.
Who killed the british motor industry? (Jeremy Clarkson):
ua-cam.com/video/b9ztUlve9jc/v-deo.html
Austin Ambassador, another crap motor!
I think the lack of harmony between management and workers I think is a run on of the entrenched class system. I grew up in England in a working class family, so I was always led to believe management were scum...:.....and that we are in one group, they are in another.... and the chasm cannot be closed.
As I’ve got older I realize and agree with you that it is more nuanced. I think we have reached the same conclusion but started on different sides of the same coin.
When we're young everything is black & white. Age brings the experience that many issues are rarely like this.
@@LittleCar When you've heard both sides of the story you realise there are more than two sides
Tragically those attitudes broke British industry in the 70’s & 80’s. Strikes, attempts to bring down elected governments ( Heath & Thatcher) , abysmal workmanship, sabotage on production lines. Coupled with poor management, lack of investment , often poor education. Generalisations I know,and doubtless honourable exceptions. But that generation, children in the war, elderly now, has little to be proud of. Much has changed since, and I now can own two excellent British-assembled cars. Unfortunately the class divides haven’t resolved - as our politicians demonstrate daily with the likes of Rayner, Rees-Mogg etc etc .
@@wyndhammh6170 ... and it's getting worse, only now because of Thatch and her cronies, everybody is either so far in debt or wants to be (over inflated house prices) that nobody can afford to have any unpaid time off work.
I'm a long time follower of the regular videos, but I have to say that I like this format where you discuss more freely cons & pros regarding the different car models and how they came about and were executed. I remember that my uncle once in the late 70's bought a Rover SD1 3500 Vanden Plas. It was a very elegant car with absolutely all equipment (sunroof, electric windows, automatic transmission, air conditioning, etc.), but it did not take long before serious problems with the car appeared (mainly electrical problems and rust). An acquaintance of the family at the same time had a BMW E9 3.0 CSi from 1974 (ie at that time a 5-6 year old car), but even though it was older than my uncle's Rover, it appeared to be a newer car and with a far better perceived quality. I therefore believe that you are absolutely right that the problems British car industry had at this time actually started with the decisions made by the management. Through the 70s and 80s, the German car manufacturers and especially Mercedes-Benz and BMW took over the part of the market that Jaguar and Rover in particular had previously dominated. Better design and mechanics were certainly an important reason, but most important of all was durability and minimal flaws and shortcomings. Keep up the good work :)
Thanks - I think this one came out well. The next video won't have an Optional Extra, as it features Patrick le Quément, so Little Car will feature the whole interview. But I intend to do more Optional Extras in the new year.
@@LittleCar Thank you for the answer. I look forward to the interview with Patrick le Quément. He is really interesting and thought far out of the box when he was a car designer for Renault in particular, but also Ford with the Sierra model (which was completely groundbreaking in terms of design when it came on the market).
I agree - great video and a good explainer that it wasn't all the fault of the trade unions, even though they got the blame. I've heard stories of BL managers going into their office and sleeping pretty much half the day - it was a cushy number for them, so why change it, even if the company was sinking?!
I worked in the New Zealand meat industry in the 80s. The same dysfunctional attitude of the unions and bloated management resulted in the industry collapsing at the end of the 80's
Voluntary union membership in the early 90's resulted in workers telling the unions to take a hike. We hired employment lawyers on a retainer who actually acted in our interest.
I rejoined the union around 2000 as their attitude had dramatically improved.
The biggest problem of the industrial unrest of the 70's and 80's is that it became normalised. It wasn't cured until the collapse of the industries affected.
I worked in Wakatu..it was crazy wild cat walk outs..
Unions are an incredibly important and sadly necessary thing - if they do their job.
Good to hear NZ unions having gotten their shit together!
I think the Germans kind of did the right thing by requiring that union representatives must be part of the supervisory board and the workers get to elect certain fractions (depending on size, iirc) of the board. Makes it more of a team effort between management and employees rather than the classic antagonistic up vs. down relationship.
I remember our three gaffers having a Wolseley version each back in 1975 (Maroon / White / Dark Green).
I thought the twin round lights on the Morris and Wolseley versions looked a lot better than the trapezoidal lights they eventually went with.
I always get the impression that BL was doomed from day one.
BL’s product line up seemed confusing, had too many vehicles competing against each other for the same market and built on different platforms and engines.
Fiber optic lines were used in all the spaceship models in star wars to give the appearence of windows from outside the spaceships.
looking forward to the Hyundai episode.
I'm eyeing that one up. Maybe about the Pony, as Hyundai working on their own cars at the start is the interesting bit to me.
@@LittleCar just that little video piqued my interest..thank you for your work & to better let me understand the British car industry..& the history of some of my faves..( US based Volvo/ Toyota truck owner)....& maybe a Boxster soon...( there’s one for ya)...or the Cayenne..( the suv that saved Porsche...Cheers!
Yes, make a union video!
I have a Princess my utter dream car, it took so long to find her! I love hearing all the back ground about the company and how she came about! Mine was assembled in Nelson New Zealand :) we drove it there for her 40 th birthday!
The problem with the Unions was that they assumed (wrongly) that the government would always bail out the companies therefore the Union could ask for pretty much whatever it wanted and went on strike when it didn't get its way. It was only later when various industries had effectively ceased to exist that people realised the folly the Unions were pulling and things returned to an even keel.
Body panels made from cheddar cheese ENGINE from tin foil held together with bird shit and string
With these Optional Extras you are spoiling us....
😂
I'd love to see a video on the industrial relations, or rather lack of, of the 1970s. I wasn't just British Leyland, but Rootes/Chrysler also had a pretty torrid time. I too remember many strikes from the 1970s, which resulted in us having huge fires in our front garden (erm?) where the street's rubbish was burned. We also had a coal fire, kerosene lamps and stoves.
Segregation between management and employees is always bad and resentment brews.
Brilliant video - really enjoyable - and touches on some big questions - would absolutely love to hear you talk about the why BL/Rover Group came to an end.
Loved both videos, and I too remember the power cuts, and shortages, and the news - strike after strike. My Grandad bought an Ambassador in 1982, I loved it - we didn't own a car, so any car was great!😆
I had a 1978 British racing green Austin Princess 1800 with a brown vinyl roof in the late 80's. Dreadful car. Front wheel sheared off when driving and went into a ditch, clutch went, fuel pump went, big end went, no power steering. My friends brother sold it to me and felt guilty as it was so awful. It did come in useful for the amount of space in the back ;)
The ambassador looked more dated than the princess was! Would have loved to have and SD1 powered engine in it
I like the relaxed style of your optional extras.
Interesting comparison with the SAAB 900. I think the difference was that unlike the Princess, it was thought of as a quality car. No matter how attractive the Princess was in its day (and it was), it felt cheap and nasty as soon as you got into it.
The Jeremy Clarkson Car Years video about why British Leyland failed is pretty good in my opinion and he interviews people that were directly involved in it all and it gives a lot of insight about all the things that went wrong inside the company. You can find the video on UA-cam.
We had a princess when I was a kid. We must have got lucky and got one of the good ones because it wasn't particularly bad for reliability or rust, that I remember. A camel at longleat kicked the door in and some monkeys ripped the vinyl roof off but the car itself soldiered on for many years.
After having a very early Wolesley 18/22 to try (registration A1!) to try out, my dad had two as his company cars as head of purchasing with Dunlop.
LVP 444P and EOM 692V. Both were 2200HLS automatics. EOM 692V had Denovo tyres. We always knew them as Austin Princesses.
Yes. The "industrial relations" problem at British Leyland required two participants to make things as bad as they were in the 1980s.
But the unions had a long-term strategy in the 1960s, which was extremely shrewd. Management was offered industrial peace (always rather short-term) in exchange for accepting practices which surrendered more and more power to the unions. This was stupid, but it was seen as tolerable because industrial relations was about to become an industry in its own right - with university professors and so on. It was as if the perpetual industrial strife was a kind of sociological phenomenon which needed experts to study it. In fact, it just needed management to stand up to the unions, as we saw later when Mrs Thatcher rebuffed similar ambitions in the miners' unions leader, and management under Michael Edwardes stood strong in the car industry.
This had been going on since the 1950s, when shipbuilding was the battlefield.
We should remember just what trade union aims were. The unions had a wider platform than the minutiae of pay deals and terms of employment. The unions wanted to establish a communist Britain, and if destroying capitalist Britain industry by industry was a step on that road, then so be it.
Britain's shipbuilding industry WAS destroyed, and the socialists had moved on to target the motor industry.
Have no doubt about it, the long drawn out demise of the British car industry was all part of establishing a Soviet-like economy in this country.
The socialists were winning.
I think the unions battles in the 1970s were, as you say, mostly cultural - a move towards the end of such a pronounced class system. I can remember the shocked expression running around in the mid 70s of 'My chauffeur has a Rolex Oyster - I can't believe it', which catches it well. The end of the period in which the lower classes should know their place and keep in it - and the people who said this really meaning it.
Not just BMC but also Ford. In the early 80's I was paid to photograph a conveyor belt that connected a giant press for door panels to the rest of the production line. The day before I arrived with the client the papers were full of the news that workers were striking on the new Escort production line. When we arrived we found out that the width of our conveyor was to small to safely collect the panels from the press and management were asking the workers to manually push the doors onto the conveyor and hold them until they reached the correct sized belt on the rest of the system. This was against work and safety rules and was dam right dangerous and so the workers refused, especially as it was the management's fault as they had supplied the wrong information to my client. Needless to say the news papers didn't see it that way and put all the blame on the unions. The car was the Erica/Escort.
I’m more Motorcycles rather than cars but those the same thing with British Leyland and a British bike industry Umberslade Hall marmalade Hall as the British bike industry used to call it they had North a lot to answer for enjoy your programs
Michael
Saab 900 never had Triumphs 1.7 liter engine, only the Saab 99 had that, intill 1971. The 900 came first 1978 and had Saabs 2.0 liter engine.
The Ambassadors party! You are spoiling us little car. Then there was the yuppy snob appeal in the 80s of everything foreign being better than British even when it wasn't all quite sad really.
Poor reporting in the 1970s did not help.The hole in the wall strike was 20ft square and workers were building cars in snow .
Excellent, I do like your Optional Extra posts, thanks 😁
Just to add, in my 55 years of driving/car ownership the worst car I’ve ever had was a Morris Marina Coupe 1.3. Against that, one of the best was an H reg ‘69 Mini Cooper 998 👍
Management acted like it was still the Victorian era where workers were there to be exploited, and if you do like it then shove off. We'll replace you with someone else. It was the 1970's, not the 1870's.
Save the packaging on the Ferarri Rocher, then wrap brussel sprouts for Hallowe'en.
As an American, and Car guy, I’d like to see a video on British Leland.
📻🙂