The hidden math behind old-school DnD
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- Опубліковано 25 лис 2024
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📚Knave 2e (my GM toolkit for sandbox campaigns) is live on Kickstarter!: bit.ly/Knave2e
Excellent!
It's really amazing how you and Dungeon craft each released a video today that tackles the underling idea that a d20 systems are fundamentally a way to work with 5% increments of chance.
Wow, that's a crazy coincidence
I'm not saying it's aliens, but...
This definitely made me want to play Knave even more, and not just pilfer it for tables! Thanks for this.
This is invaluable. The maths is the backbone of an RPG of this style, so it's really useful to hear it spelled out clearly by someone who has done the crunch, and it is interesting to seed how you have taken its principles and transmuted them into a different but still compatible form. Would love more designer ideas and thoughts from you.
Love to hear design choices even though I am not an OSR guy. Streamlining ttrpgs while retaining uniqueness is always a plus.
Agreed. Also not much of an OSR person but this is the content that keeps me subbed to this channel anyway 😂
Glad to know you are actually looking at the math behind it. It's not glamorous but it is core to making sure a game is designed well and that probability is mapped out to some degree. I think too many game designers, especially in the OSR/NuSR/Indy scenes neglect it because they just want to focus on a gimmick or vibe, but the probability breakdown section of the original DMG is really useful as a tool for running the game and understanding likely outcomes. This video is a great demonstration of how you can use that to create tweaks or even big changes that can be compatible through similar math, where lots of people make what seem like smaller changes that are worse for compatibility because they didn't consider the foundations of the mechanics.
Ben--had to comment due to an eye-opening moment in this video for me. I've been setting up my own campaign for a while now, and I must have read and re-read through the K2E Kickstarter Preview document several times. But it wasn't until watching this video that I caught that the ability scores chosen to increase during level ups must all be different!
I was fully prepared for LVL 2 PCs to be strutting around with (up to) 6 STR (or DEX, WIS, etc.) because I continuously missed that one damn keyword! I know I'm just a random guy on the internet, so big grain of salt, but that word might really benefit from being boldened/italicized/something so that others don't make the mistake I nearly did.
Thanks for your content and all the work you put into the hobby. Cheers
I missed it too.
For anyone interested in converting to roll-under: (d20 + modifier) ≥ 16 is equivalent to d20 ≤ (5 + modifier).
I really like the knave characters are about as tough 2nd or 3rd level bx characters. Level 1 felt like somewhat of a slog to push through before you could make real calculated risks with your character.
And at the same time with slot damage=injury you do still feel like your character is very fragile to begin with, honestly the best of both worlds
I read a comment some time ago saying that among Gygax's houserules, there was one which granted PCs 5000 EXP at char gen, effectively puttng them at 3rd level, which is, from what i know about osr, the moment when your character stops dying from a sneeze. Some people say that it was a thing to not even name characters before level 3. Effectively, seems like at least some treated 1st and 2nd levels as part of character generation with best played and luckiest characters surviving, while characters with poor hp or stats or badly played died off.
Might be a good houserule to guve players option to roll three stat arrays, but keep one and then give 5000 exp to bump characters to a level when it would be more worthwhile to invest in them.
I think max hp on level 1 hit dice is also a houserule some use
Absolutely Awesome 💯😎👌 Can't wait for 2e!!!!
I love this channel and am so pleased to see Knave 2e take off so strongly-very much deserved! Whenever possible, my work day starts with a new Questing Beast video and a cup of coffee as I schedule and organize my tasks. 🙂
I went from feeling like I would forever be stuck playing 5e to combing through the blogosphere for advice, running Knave for the people I love, and building small games and hacks of my own. I wouldn't be doing ANY of it without your channel, your videos, and your games.
Thank you for everything you do!
Thank you for your detailed and succint explanation. I am always fascinated by the math in RPGs and you continue to demonstrate the elegance of a clear and concise system.
I have Knave 1 and Maze Rats, looking forward to Knave 2.
This is a fantastic breakdown and comparison between the rules sets, and a great thing to consider when it comes to balance when shifting between two systems.
An interesting look into your thoughts when designing it, looking forward to getting my hands on Knave 2E 🙂👍
In my homemade game D20 Dungeons, everything is on a 5% scale. The d20 is the only dice used. Bonuses and penalties adjust the roll.
Knave inspired Ability scores, except there are 10 of them.
Your dice roll result depicts the range of success you have in an action. A 1 = 5% all the way to 20 = 100%.
Combat is crazy fast.
Knave continues to be a HUGE inspiration for me, and I can't wait for my new materials.
Love it
Level progression distills down to 5% improvement per level, starting with 25% at level 1 and ending with 75% at level 10. Knave locks this in by setting standard difficulty of roll over d20 at 16 and adding ability score (each point improving success chance by 5%).
This is cool. I have been homebrewing a simple version of DnD that only uses advantage disadvantage as modifiers and using the ability scores to attack and defend. The prpbability math worked out similar.
It all seems to come down to the GM being able to reliably choose an appropriate probability in the moment at the table with 5-10% feeling very hard, 25-30% feeling hard but achieveable and 65-70% feeling reliable.
Players then progressing through how reliably they can attempt an action.
I came in late as a Knave 2 backer. Looking forward to having it in my hands.
Well, I'm sold. Project backed. I was going to get it eventually, but this sparked the hype.
This was a very timely video. I've been working on an OSR game of my own for a little while now, and i'm almost nearing completion on it. You as well as several of my friends who have been making their own games has been an inspiration to me to make my own game, so thank you.
even tho money is a lil tight i still had to support one of my fave ttrpg youtubers as soon as i got the message that the kickstarter was live,
i do love seeing behind the curtains, gamedesign and game theory content like this, thanks Ben
Thanks for the look behind the curtain! Very interesting.
I've put together an indie tabletop event in Austin for next Saturday (6/3). Wish you were closer and could come out.
Just when I thought I was being original too… totally plan on backing. Enjoyed the first Knave, and like everything I’ve seen about the second edition.
Im not even a designer (outside of just houseruling stuff), but i do love design breakdowns like this
Interesting, definitely I need to check this and play it on my table
I am so glad I backed Knave 2. I can't wait to start a game with my friends.
Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing
I backed Knave because 2e because Waking of Willoughby House was so bloody good, and because I enjoyed your approach to games, products, etc on the channel. This explanation here is emblematic of that sort of thinking and supports my decision to back Knave 2e on the strength of its' author. Bravo!
Backed Knave 2E. Honestly I just wanted it for the random charts tables. But the game itself sounds interesting. Excited.
I love hearing about the math behind the abstraction of dice & game play. It's fun to chuck dice & kill monsters. It's an art to create a forum for doing such and allowing for a translation to and from other forums.
Hey ;Ben! Happy spring? Anyway gonna pick up Knave version two I guess, this season. Just let me collect all the shiney stuff...first...then get it to you.
Love dev blogs and game design videos , keep up the videos to support knave 2e
Yer analysis and logic is great.
really looking forward to Knave 2.
This works incredibly well. Knave is a genius tight system.
Great vid again! Congrats on Knave 2E! I'll be grabbing a copy!
Great game. Super pumped to get my hands on it.
Thanks for explaining your thoughts behind Knave 2e!
This is a fascinating video. Thank you for showing your working out.
This 5% rule is amazing. I am working on my own set of rules and this couldn't have come at a better time. Also I am a backer and I can't wait!
I appreciate that breakdown! I've been playing with making a classless and leveless game closer to 4e or pf2. Been tough and I go back to the drawing board a lot but it's been fun. Solidifying core mechanics and math is what I need to do.
Great info. Thank you Ben!
Amazing! I can't wait!
This is some dead sexy nerdy gamer math content right here. Love it!
Very interesting vid! Thanks. And ideas make total sense!
Cool to hear the design insights!
Fantastic ... thank you! I've tried to do similar calculations before when tinkering with simple system designs but my brain just doesn't get there 😂. Can't wait for the pdf to arrive. I'm a professional GM and I feel like I will be using Knave more than any other system in about 3 or 4 months from now.
How can you make NPCs or creatures below average or terrible in Knave? Negative ability scores?
3d6 from the top mostly create a bell curve. Most people will fall toward bog standard 9-12. The extremes are outliers.
I mean, that's what Swords & Wizardry did with the unified 1 save. Simplify!
The Wizard of Wichita strikes again. Loved the deepthink.
I've never really loved Hit Points, so I rather like the equipment-slots-as-wounds approach. It's a bit reminiscent of Stress and Consequences in Fate.
The only thing I worry about is having to drop equipment as the character is wounded. Assuming that includes their shield and armor, that means the closer they are to death, the less defence they have.
There's logic to that, but it also looks a bit like a death spiral.
It's one of those rules that's very easy to tweak on a table by table basis, if you don't want to have to drop stuff
Thanks for sharing!
Great stuff friend 👏 👍
Other than adapting Goodman Games' Keep on the Borderlands, I pretty much wont be touching much of my old 5e stuff. I haven't played 'DnD' in a long while besides.
Ben, would you consider showcasing Knave 2e in a form of an actual game session(s) video, playing with your friends?
I would love to see it in action.
Thank you for consideration!
Design theory is cool and l always wanna hear more about it. 😊
The math is quite different on the defensive side of combat though. In old-school D&D, your armour class barely moves as you level up, whereas monsters' attack bonuses rise steadily with level. In Knave 2e you can end up with a dexterity bonus of +10 on your AC. I'm not saying it's worse - the old D&D system where you got hit more often the more you levelled up was a bit odd - but it's not quite compatible.
In Knave you don't add DEX to your armor
Wow! Online since 20 seconds!
Awesome!
Sounds pretty streamlined-cool! Could you explain how HP, Damage, XP, and Leveling works (Gold for xp, max levels, etc...). Thnx!
Ok, you answered one of these here... thnx
This was very helpful, Ben. It makes me think about what the fundamental underlying mechanical assumptions (i.e., mathematical ranges and probabilities) are in most RPG systems, and how those assumptions compare across systems. I'm wondering if there's a centralized place on the web where coherent discussion of what exactly these systemic assumptions are--or should be--in various RPGs, with the aim of enhancing playability and enjoyment.
For example, I'm attracted to systems like Knave 2, Shadow Dark, and Low Fantasy Gaming for their emphasis on playability and reduction of needless complexity, together with a general preservation of lethality across levels (in order to keep role playing exciting). But I'm also attracted to the systems elegance, flexibility and character customization of RPGs like Against the Darkmaster (a redesign inspired by games like MERP/Rolemaster). Note the gritty realism tone shared by all of these examples--another design feature that I prefer.
I find myself wanting to merge the beauty of each of these RPGs into an 'über-system' compatible with each game's adventures, yet taking the best of each. I wonder who else might be engaged in similar meta-RPG system discussions--who might help me see more clearly the benefits of each RPG's mechanics.
Hey, Ben. Great video as always.
Is it true that you are (or used to be) a Math teacher?
Cheers,
V
Good breakdown - seems based on the fighter (as the progression in AD&D are class based and weird as hell :))
The 5% is close (8 point drop over 10 for saves and attacks)- so 5% is a great underlying rule.
My only concern it won’t feel like the same experience to magic user or maybe thieves, but I get it’s classless.
Backed btw :). Nice job
great haircut.
STR + 2 / CON + 1
How is Knave like school during the Summer?
No class.
How do you playtest a new system like this? Do you create and run adventures using your mechanics, or mostly "whiteroom" it?
Hey, Ben, I'm getting into OSR games, and this video has been a fantastic help to get my head around the OSR maths and hacking. I like the idea of recentering the gameplay around the six ability scores, but I was wondering how you would go about converting the saves on Monster stat blocks, so that spells, breath weapons, etc, don't have to have entirely different resolution mechanics depending on if the spell is applying to a PC or a Monster.
I was all ready to hear an explanation that the 3-18 skills are not useful - these numbers are never used for anything. It all is remapped to bonuses, so why not just reduce the complexity and newbie confusion by having only one ability score, which is also your ability bonus. This is essentially what knave appears to have done, but oddly wasn’t in the designers commentary.
Maybe you could help me with a question? Which addition of d&d are you refering too as old school? D&d, ad&d 1st edition, Blackmoor, grey hawk, chainmail. I can that set of rules that DCC, osr and other claim as their source.
The players' hit die in Knave 1e was originally a d8 right? When you lowered it to a d6 were there other changes that contributed to the math behind the decision or was it just a pretty straightforward nerf to survivability?
Oh, wait. I just remembered that you said the average HP at level 10 hovers around 50 which would still be the case if the math was 10d8.
I'm curious: have you found classlessness to be an asset to creative game play, or do players tend to slip back into class-based tropes? I hope that even if people tend to broadly fit their PCs into class archetypes, the lack of classes lets each PC feel more individualized and unique.
@@bobhill-ol7wp A player committed to an archetype will most always be able to fill it; my question was more about whether a game in which players are not funneled by the game system into archetypes, did they tend toward those archetypes, or did they tend toward characters with either a mix of archetypal characteristics, or no archetypal role at all.
Epic
@QuestingBeast is apparently colluding with @DungeonCraft for video topics, and we are richer for it 🤑
Haha, total coincidence
Cool video. Behind all the complex rules you still end up with a game that's based around players rolling for a percentage chance that goes up or down in 5% increments. And players getting too powerful reduces the fun. Professor DM just released a video revealing how the most important number you can roll in D&D is 8. Great insight that adds to your own insights on game design ua-cam.com/video/Pk4o-VOY8F0/v-deo.html
So just to clarify, of a player character had a 15 Dex in D&D, how much Dex would they have in Knave 2e?
Is there some sort of conversation chart?
If I'm understanding this correctly the Dex scale is 0-10 in knave 2e so the attribute is the modifier, so if you have 7 in Dex it is a +7 to checks involving it.
In D&D 5e a 15 Dex has a +2 to your modifier so in Knave your Dex would be 12 and your modifier will directly be +2. Simple and intuitive.
@@hishamaqtariq in OSE a 15 DEX provides +1. In 3e/4e/5e it provides a +2 bonus. In AD&D (based on Osric and my recollection of 2e), it provides +0.
So what score should be used in knave 2e?
@@FinalSonicX Thanks for sharing that! The answer is in your reply - if in OSE Dex of 15 has a +1 modifier then in Knave it's +1 too (and hence Dex of 11). Similarly for any D&D like system that uses ability scores and modifiers.
Knave just simplifies ability scores to be the modifier + 10 so you don't have to use conversion charts or anything else.
@@hishamaqtariq sorry I thought the scores range from 0 to 10 in knave 2e. Are you saying they actually range from 10 to 20 and the modifier is the score - 10?
Math.
It was always math.
I'm not a math guy but it seems to me you could not get more than one attribute up to 10 when you are distributing 13 points. Still Ben kept saying 2-3 up to 10. Am I missing something?
As I understand it, when you start you get 3 points and each time you level up you get 3 more points to put into the attributes. So, by Level 10, you'll have 33 points in the 6 attributes. If you spread them out you'll have 5 or 6 in each of the attributes, and if you specialize you could easily have 10 in a couple 2 to 4 in each of the others.
Great Video. I enjoy hearing designers talk about their reasoning and math behind their game systems. I have a question. Using Knave as the basis for a post apocalyptic fantasy world (aka a problematic setting...). If you were not just using a dungeon/underworld delving world. What would you do using Knave to simulate and theme such a setting as Dark Sun?
16 is too high
Sounds like a cool system but what should make me buy Knave over OSE or any other OSR system? Just asking because I have a stack of games I’ve purchased over the years that never see game play.
It’s not very good, really. It’s one of those hipster games that gamers don’t actually play.
@@shawnfisher9976 lmao bullshit
It's great for introducing younger players to roleplaying games. I've used it with kids aged 6-10 and it's quick and easy.
Knave's main pull for me is its breakneck speed of play and simplicity. OSE is chunky and bloody obtuse for people who arent very familiar with that era and style of play. You could drop Knave in front of most people and they could figure it out. From what I can tell 2e has few/ no system changes but a treasure trove of DM tools and tables.
I think this is one of those "I'm not your mom" situations; it's your choice to buy or not buy Knave 2e, and it's okay if the game isn't pulling you so strongly as to displace the backlog of games you already have. I love Knave but probably won't buy 2e until I've run a good amount of Cairn or Errant for friends and family-still not sure which, though I'm realizing now that I clearly seem to like roll-under systems-as they become more excited about roleplaying games.
I suggest picking up the 1e PDF on itch for $2.99 if you want to take a closer look before tossing down a bunch of money.
I appreciate every designer note but this is no rocket science.
And then in 90% of the time (estimated not calculated) your GM makes an absolutely arbitrary jurisdiction about a thing thats not governed by the rules in any way.
I am sad to cancel my pledge. I really wanted Knave, but being left in the cold as a European means I will have to move on to a different system.
Yes, the United States postal service charges a lot to ship to Europe.
No shit
This system is so classless ;)
So long story short, they aren’t compatible.
Wtf are you talking about? How do you watch this video and come away with that take? They're totally compatible. Almost no conversion is needed and the experience at the table is very similar.
@@chrislefler3554 I've rewatched the video twice and unless I am missing something, this doesn't sound compatible in the way most people understand OSR compatibility. If I have an OSR module or monster Stat block, there's no indication of how to map core stats or their now-defunct secondary statistics such as saves or thac0. We can hand waive and say you can dispense with these details so everything just uses knave math, stats, and assumptions, but that's true of any game whatsoever, even ones outside the classic D&D mechanical framework. D&D 3e uses the same 5% progression for BAB and yet we wouldn't call it OSR compatible.
If I convert an 18/00 Ogre's Strength into Knave, what number should I use? What about a creature with good Thac0 but sub-18 Strength, such as a skilled but non-magical human knight?
@Ben Giles first, you can just roll that monster's provided saves or attack bonus, like you normally would. Ben pointed out in this video that the numbers end up in basically the same place, even if the route to get there is different. Second, I believe Knave 2e will include guidelines with how to deal with monster stats. Earlier versions/drafts of Knave have. If a monster is good at something (say, strength for a troll, use their HD for their strength bonus.) If they're only kind of good at a thing, use half their HD for the bonus. If they're bad at the thing, no bonus to the roll. Easy peasy and really quick. That's what earlier versions of Knave have done.
@@chrislefler3554 I'm not trying to be pedantic here, but giants in 1e have 19-25 strength and 11 hit dice. That's +3-+7 to hit for strength. If I use raw attributes, a level 1 character in knave could already meet the low end of giant strength, so I guess I use HD, but now giants break the scale. If I use giant thac0 from 2e I am looking at 5-7, so +13 or so, again breaking the scale. So the answer is that +11, +3 or +7, or +13 could all be reasonable answers. I could look at any of these numbers, pick one rule to use everywhere, and call it good enough. I could do the same with any game but it doesn't make those games compatible.
+0 to +10 doesn't map to any existing scale in classic D&D except Fighter Thac0, and only from levels 1-10. If I can use HD as a proxy for any roll, and HD is often a proxy for level, are all games with levels "compatible"? What if the level scale from minimum to maximum changes?
@@FinalSonicX Respectfully, I feel like you're trying really hard to make it not work. I've run Knave using B/X (OSE) monsters quite a bit, and I've never had a problem that wasn't easily rectified with half a second of thought.