Your video here and others on Payoff Pitch you've done convinced me I needed this game and impulse bought it and the 1984 set. I'm very excited to get these cards in my hand. Really enjoy your channel, thanks for your insights on the game/hobby.
Been playing for a few months now and have never heard anything about the quick play system. I’m going to have to research it. I don’t recall seeing it in the rules. Where can I get the details?
I'll be starting back up again with my next Playoff Pitch project soon. I do also have a few play videos - my All-star game and World Series games from my league.
I’m much older than you. The only game available when I was a kid was the game with the spinner-very unscientific. I think it was called Ethan ALlens All Star Baseball.
Do you know why some batters have a "0" for HR in the Wheelhouse section? If you roll a "00" for the batter card Wheelhouse outcome, is there a special HR outcome or procedure to follow, or do the rare play charts kick in?
Here is the rule: 0 in HR range on batter’s WHEELHOUSE section. [Optional rule] When a 00 is the percentile dice result and the batter has either a blank or 0 next to his HR result, re-roll the percentile dice (00-99). If the result is doubles (00, 11, 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99), the batter hits a HR. All other results, check the appropriate Rare Play chart using the 2d6 dice total currently on the table or on the previous FAC if using FAC cards. This is an optional rule and may be ignored if desired.
Basically, Payoff Pitch is a 50/50 game in this regard. The Payoff Pitcher card denotes the column used on the Batter's card. IOW, the Pitcher Card is basically a representation of the 1 through 6 column selection in SOM. Instead of drawing 1 though 6 the columns are represented by names tough, patient, and etc., on the pitcher card. Each of those categories are formulated on the batter's card, but the pitcher performance is controlled by the arrangement of those chances on his card. For example, a bad pitcher may have more frequency of the wheelhouse result. I would like to see this game in pc form for testing the accuracy over 20 to 30 seasonal replays. In Payoff Pitch as in SOM, there will be variance in the results. Just me, but a 50/50 model like SOM getting more rolls on the batter card could be no different than the variance of the Payoff Pitcher card getting more bad column rolls on his card. The only way to control any mathematical variance is random sampling without replacement.
Major issue with the game is once you get past the the interesting pitcher-batter interaction. It all feels convoluted and awkward. Then when you read the instructions it’s clear that it’s a patch job and not well written. Beautiful Cards but the underpriced and when you go to sell it it has little to no value.
I'm a SOM pc game player and SOM has it's share of flaws. It gets the number of errors right, but they aren't distributed properly by the bathand or by the base situation. Next, pitchers get 55% of their errors off bunts and pickoffs. SOM needs to visibly game engine fix this problem. But, it's a great game for what it gets right. Sidenote; the amount of research that goes into any of these games is questionable if things like pitcher errors or bunt and pickoff errors aren't addressed or who makes the given error off which bathand at the plate.
Yes, I'm picking nits a bit, but errors on pickoffs and bunts is statistically correlated to those events. For example, if they aren't occurring in their rightful place then they're occurring in an incorrect place.
I’m looking forward to analyzing the assist/putout distribution on ground balls. How often is the lead runner forced, etc. My guess is that this is another area that isn’t modeled well in many games.
@@johnnysmoke612 When I was younger I never really paid attention to it, but as I’ve gotten older some of this stuff bothers me more. SOM did always feel like real baseball though. :)
Ive been playing Table Top Sports games for over 45yrs and my first impression like yours was that I liked the Card quality, Its obviously the best out there. Unfortunately, That’s really the only thing that I liked about this game. The largest turnoff for me was the Pitchers card layout. In my opinion using the two six-sided dice with only one column is a recipe for repetitive results which I experienced especially with the Ballpark and Wheelhouse results when they were located as a five or a nine they came up quite often which for me was disappointing. Thats why Strat works so good they use 3 columns for the Pitcher and the Batters Card for much more variety per roll. I would change the way you read the two 6-sided dice to 11-66 it would allow for more variety with the result. Also, The pitchers need split ratings, If you can include them with the Batters you need to include them on the pitchers card, Its incomplete without them. Thank for the review.
Thanks for watching! I appreciate your thoughts. I can see where you’re coming from on that stuff. I’m interested to see how things go over more games for me.
This is the second negative review I have seen you post .. I get it, you dont like the game..Good for you..Others, MANY actually, do.. Joe Bryan the creator of the game has REPEATEDLY explained why the pitcher cards are created like they are.There's NOTHING wrong with the design Keep playing archaic Strat.That seems to be your game of choice..Nobody will stop you.
@@donaldcummings8407 Calm down, Everyone has an opinion, That’s why there are plenty of games to choose from. Im not the only individual that has shared their opinion about a game more than once. If I commented on every negative comment out there that I don’t agree with, I would be busy most of the day doing it.
@@donaldcummings8407 People look at things differently, Ive had a lot of guys tell me my comments made a lot of sense, After they played the game. So to each their own. I didn’t say anything about your negative comment about Strat, Because your entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Evidently, I don’t get the same respect of having mine, No matter how many times I mention it. At the end of the day who really cares about anyone’s opinions anyway, I don’t.
Very nice review. One weakness (nit pick) that many find in Payoff Pitch is the lack of L/R Splits on the pitcher's card. This was a big deal to me at first but since all batters have those splits on their card, I have learned to accept it. This game is great for season replays as every player is carded unlike SOM.
Yes! I meant to mention that. I know Joe has said that splits are factored into the pitcher’s card, even if not explicitly. Like you, I’ve accepted it too.
Very nice job. I tried to like this game, but there are too many issues for me. Not enough Defense, be it range/error checks, OF assist, or double plays. Defense is in the back seat. Also, it's next to impossible to hit an L5 or L3 as they are not on the cards and have to come from a very rare fielding check that turns into a liner at one of those fielders. It doesnt seem like batters are rated for where they hit the ball in general.
Thanks for watching! I’ve seen defense pop up a fair amount over 100+ games. You’re right about the lack of some plays and distribution of outs. I’ve been looking at the 2022 PBP data (you can see those videos on my channel). Now I wonder about other games and play distribution.
I haven't played enough games yet but just had one where a guy was thrown out at the plate in the eighth inning to preserve a 2-1 victory. Not contradicting you but just making an observation.
Like you, I started when I was young - with Strat-O-Matic. Now, I play that AND Payoff Pitch. I think I actually like Payoff Pitch better than Strat-O-Matic (as far as the board game versions go).
I have finally cut the cards out to play some Payoff Pitch but have yet to roll a game. Having watched it played though I love how it is not just numbers / stats on a card but a description word giving you an idea of what is coming. As for these baseball games in general sometimes I think people forget these are to be games and not just statistical reproducing machines and so the developer trying a new way to present the game or maybe leaving certain things out may be them trying to make the game more user friendly or user fun. I support this as I would like to see more of the general public experience these games and help the hobby grow. Anyway great video like another I watched of your's. Will have to watch this one again when I am more alert. Also will come back to it after I finally play some games and compare it to my experiences. Peace.
It's funny you should mention Strat, Statis-Pro and Payoff Pitch because those are the three games I have used extensively. I like Payoff Pitch ("PP") a lot; I completed a 162-game (single team) replay. I don't really love any of PP's stolen base systems, I think Strat is superior for stolen bases. I struggled with finding a stolen base base option within the PP rules that I liked - either it is too easy to seal or too tough to steal. And I am somewhat baffled by batters who either have a "1" or no rating for getting a jump but do have real life stolen bases. Perhaps PP means to leave those batters to the hit-and-run rule (which I'm not thrilled with either). The fatigue rules of Statis-Pro are probably better than either Strat of Payoff Pitch; Statis-Pro is basically a BFP system. That all being said I liked Payoff Pitch immensely. I'm not sure that I could name Strat, Statis-Pro or Payoff Pitch as the "best" one, but Payoff Pitch is extremely fun to play and my team replay of 162 games showed very comparable stats to real life when it was done. Payoff Pitch will not be gathering dust on my shelf.
@@baseballmaelstrom Me also, and the games he mentioned are fabulous games, but no individual splits really, Fall Classic gives an across the board advantage for opposite handedness with the occasional minor tweak and Deep Drive lets you go up or down 50 if the players splits hit a threshold.....none of it really works on an individual basis properly (as a macro it works as a micro it doesn't).....and if a player hits better against its own handedness (a lefty hits better against lefties or a lefthanded pitcher pitches better against righties), forget it. Again great games but sadly these things aren't in the game for realism purposes
Your video here and others on Payoff Pitch you've done convinced me I needed this game and impulse bought it and the 1984 set. I'm very excited to get these cards in my hand. Really enjoy your channel, thanks for your insights on the game/hobby.
Hope you enjoy it!
Been playing for a few months now and have never heard anything about the quick play system. I’m going to have to research it. I don’t recall seeing it in the rules. Where can I get the details?
sidelinestrategy.com/games/payoff-pitch-baseball/ppb-resources It’s here in the PPB Resources page.
@@baseballmaelstromthanks. Been there several times and must’ve always overlooked it.
I’m getting back into this game. Watching your review a 2nd time.
I'll be starting back up again with my next Playoff Pitch project soon. I do also have a few play videos - my All-star game and World Series games from my league.
Quick question have you ever seen Inside Pitch? It has everything, give it a try ⚾️
Yes! I have it and have looked at it a little to get some project ideas. It’s on my list to dig deeper into.
I’m much older than you.
The only game available when I was a kid was the game with the spinner-very unscientific. I think it was called Ethan ALlens All Star Baseball.
Do you know why some batters have a "0" for HR in the Wheelhouse section? If you roll a "00" for the batter card Wheelhouse outcome, is there a special HR outcome or procedure to follow, or do the rare play charts kick in?
Here is the rule: 0 in HR range on batter’s WHEELHOUSE section. [Optional rule] When a 00 is the percentile dice result and the batter has either a blank or 0 next to his HR result, re-roll the percentile dice (00-99). If the result is doubles (00, 11, 22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99), the batter hits a HR. All other results, check the appropriate Rare Play chart using the 2d6 dice total currently on the table or on the previous FAC if using FAC cards. This is an optional rule and may be ignored if desired.
it's a fun game, though I need a cheat sheet to help out with some of the little things you need to keep track of on some hits.
I still use a chart too :)
Basically, Payoff Pitch is a 50/50 game in this regard. The Payoff Pitcher card denotes the column used on the Batter's card. IOW, the Pitcher Card is basically a representation of the 1 through 6 column selection in SOM. Instead of drawing 1 though 6 the columns are represented by names tough, patient, and etc., on the pitcher card. Each of those categories are formulated on the batter's card, but the pitcher performance is controlled by the arrangement of those chances on his card. For example, a bad pitcher may have more frequency of the wheelhouse result. I would like to see this game in pc form for testing the accuracy over 20 to 30 seasonal replays. In Payoff Pitch as in SOM, there will be variance in the results. Just me, but a 50/50 model like SOM getting more rolls on the batter card could be no different than the variance of the Payoff Pitcher card getting more bad column rolls on his card. The only way to control any mathematical variance is random sampling without replacement.
Interesting idea. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Major issue with the game is once you get past the the interesting pitcher-batter interaction. It all feels convoluted and awkward. Then when you read the instructions it’s clear that it’s a patch job and not well written. Beautiful Cards but the underpriced and when you go to sell it it has little to no value.
I'm a SOM pc game player and SOM has it's share of flaws. It gets the number of errors right, but they aren't distributed properly by the bathand or by the base situation. Next, pitchers get 55% of their errors off bunts and pickoffs. SOM needs to visibly game engine fix this problem. But, it's a great game for what it gets right. Sidenote; the amount of research that goes into any of these games is questionable if things like pitcher errors or bunt and pickoff errors aren't addressed or who makes the given error off which bathand at the plate.
Yeah, it's so hard to find a game that handles some of the more noodly stuff right.
Yes, I'm picking nits a bit, but errors on pickoffs and bunts is statistically correlated to those events. For example, if they aren't occurring in their rightful place then they're occurring in an incorrect place.
I’m looking forward to analyzing the assist/putout distribution on ground balls. How often is the lead runner forced, etc. My guess is that this is another area that isn’t modeled well in many games.
@Baseball Maelstrom True, but in SOM in the overall it all comes out in the wash some how. Even if the exact distribution is off or wrong a bit.
@@johnnysmoke612 When I was younger I never really paid attention to it, but as I’ve gotten older some of this stuff bothers me more. SOM did always feel like real baseball though. :)
Ive been playing Table Top Sports games for over 45yrs and my first impression like yours was that I liked the Card quality, Its obviously the best out there. Unfortunately, That’s really the only thing that I liked about this game. The largest turnoff for me was the Pitchers card layout. In my opinion using the two six-sided dice with only one column is a recipe for repetitive results which I experienced especially with the Ballpark and Wheelhouse results when they were located as a five or a nine they came up quite often which for me was disappointing. Thats why Strat works so good they use 3 columns for the Pitcher and the Batters Card for much more variety per roll. I would change the way you read the two 6-sided dice to 11-66 it would allow for more variety with the result. Also, The pitchers need split ratings, If you can include them with the Batters you need to include them on the pitchers card, Its incomplete without them. Thank for the review.
Thanks for watching! I appreciate your thoughts. I can see where you’re coming from on that stuff. I’m interested to see how things go over more games for me.
This is the second negative review I have seen you post .. I get it, you dont like the game..Good for you..Others, MANY actually, do..
Joe Bryan the creator of the game has REPEATEDLY explained why the pitcher cards are created like they are.There's NOTHING wrong with the design
Keep playing archaic Strat.That seems to be your game of choice..Nobody will stop you.
@@donaldcummings8407 Calm down, Everyone has an opinion, That’s why there are plenty of games to choose from. Im not the only individual that has shared their opinion about a game more than once. If I commented on every negative comment out there that I don’t agree with, I would be busy most of the day doing it.
@@bruinsfan9645 Once should have been enough....You made your point no need to pile on to it,which you went out of your way to do
That's MY opinion.
@@donaldcummings8407 People look at things differently, Ive had a lot of guys tell me my comments made a lot of sense, After they played the game. So to each their own. I didn’t say anything about your negative comment about Strat, Because your entitled to your opinion and I respect that. Evidently, I don’t get the same respect of having mine, No matter how many times I mention it. At the end of the day who really cares about anyone’s opinions anyway, I don’t.
Very nice review. One weakness (nit pick) that many find in Payoff Pitch is the lack of L/R Splits on the pitcher's card. This was a big deal to me at first but since all batters have those splits on their card, I have learned to accept it. This game is great for season replays as every player is carded unlike SOM.
Yes! I meant to mention that. I know Joe has said that splits are factored into the pitcher’s card, even if not explicitly. Like you, I’ve accepted it too.
Very nice job. I tried to like this game, but there are too many issues for me. Not enough Defense, be it range/error checks, OF assist, or double plays. Defense is in the back seat. Also, it's next to impossible to hit an L5 or L3 as they are not on the cards and have to come from a very rare fielding check that turns into a liner at one of those fielders. It doesnt seem like batters are rated for where they hit the ball in general.
Thanks for watching! I’ve seen defense pop up a fair amount over 100+ games. You’re right about the lack of some plays and distribution of outs. I’ve been looking at the 2022 PBP data (you can see those videos on my channel). Now I wonder about other games and play distribution.
@@baseballmaelstrom Same. I will check out your other videos, especially on that subject.
I haven't played enough games yet but just had one where a guy was thrown out at the plate in the eighth inning to preserve a 2-1 victory. Not contradicting you but just making an observation.
Ethan Allen's All-Star Baseball by Cadaco
Yes! Thank you!
Really is a fantastic game
Thanks for watching!
Like you, I started when I was young - with Strat-O-Matic. Now, I play that AND Payoff Pitch. I think I actually like Payoff Pitch better than Strat-O-Matic (as far as the board game versions go).
Good stuff! Thanks for watching!
I have finally cut the cards out to play some Payoff Pitch but have yet to roll a game. Having watched it played though I love how it is not just numbers / stats on a card but a description word giving you an idea of what is coming. As for these baseball games in general sometimes I think people forget these are to be games and not just statistical reproducing machines and so the developer trying a new way to present the game or maybe leaving certain things out may be them trying to make the game more user friendly or user fun. I support this as I would like to see more of the general public experience these games and help the hobby grow. Anyway great video like another I watched of your's. Will have to watch this one again when I am more alert. Also will come back to it after I finally play some games and compare it to my experiences. Peace.
That’s awesome! Would love to hear what you think after you get some games in.
I really like the fictional seasons. I can play without being obsessed with statistical accuracy to the nth degree.
It's funny you should mention Strat, Statis-Pro and Payoff Pitch because those are the three games I have used extensively. I like Payoff Pitch ("PP") a lot; I completed a 162-game (single team) replay. I don't really love any of PP's stolen base systems, I think Strat is superior for stolen bases. I struggled with finding a stolen base base option within the PP rules that I liked - either it is too easy to seal or too tough to steal. And I am somewhat baffled by batters who either have a "1" or no rating for getting a jump but do have real life stolen bases. Perhaps PP means to leave those batters to the hit-and-run rule (which I'm not thrilled with either). The fatigue rules of Statis-Pro are probably better than either Strat of Payoff Pitch; Statis-Pro is basically a BFP system. That all being said I liked Payoff Pitch immensely. I'm not sure that I could name Strat, Statis-Pro or Payoff Pitch as the "best" one, but Payoff Pitch is extremely fun to play and my team replay of 162 games showed very comparable stats to real life when it was done. Payoff Pitch will not be gathering dust on my shelf.
Thanks for the perspective! Even though I’m on the Payoff Pitch train right now, I don’t think the others are bad at all either.
Still nothing is better than Strat or APBA
Also good choices!
Check out Deep Drive and Fall Classic for games that are well throughout-out and planned.
Thanks for the recommendations and your thoughts!
Hopefully those two games can have lefty/righty splits one day.....sadly without them, they are just not up to par
Splits are definitely one of my must-haves.
@@baseballmaelstrom Me also, and the games he mentioned are fabulous games, but no individual splits really, Fall Classic gives an across the board advantage for opposite handedness with the occasional minor tweak and Deep Drive lets you go up or down 50 if the players splits hit a threshold.....none of it really works on an individual basis properly (as a macro it works as a micro it doesn't).....and if a player hits better against its own handedness (a lefty hits better against lefties or a lefthanded pitcher pitches better against righties), forget it. Again great games but sadly these things aren't in the game for realism purposes