The background singers on Hey Joe by Jimi absolutely blew my mind. Probably the most haunting background singers in rock history. When set up properly they come from places unknown.
Only just learned about this and realised I experienced it a short while ago with what would be described as an entry level hi-fi system, and the sound was right there in front of me, not from either speaker - it was amazing 😀
Yes, that's right. It takes a badly designed AVR to mess up the soundstage. Of course what matters for soundstage in a system is all about speakers, placement and room acoustics.
Kind of disappointed you missed this: its usually vital to close your eyes for any of this to work because our vision has the dominant path to the brain, remember we are trying to fool the brain that what it is seeing should be discarded in favor of what it is hearing. I suggest Robert Plants "ship of fools" from Now and Zen. The techs did a great job of separation of the instruments, you can clearly hear them far outside the confines of the listening space. Also consider not just equidistance to your ears of each speaker but if they aim just behind or in front of your ears. Theres a saying by audiophiles when you achieve the phantom channel. "At that moment, the system became transparant." Its usually after speaker placement is perfect, eyes are closed, and you take a brief moment to breathe slowly, bring your heart rate down, and relax. Youre entering a state resembling meditation.
Thank you so much Paul and psaudio for the FR30, i was the first buyer here in germany and i have now 525hrs breakin time on them, almost done with the 600 hrs recommendation. Loved every minute of it, music and movies on a level i never thought i would listen in my homecinema/livingroom
I wish everyone could hear music in a properly set up system. Width and more importantly depth of the soundstage is a truly “goose bump” experience that just want you to listen more. It took many years but I’m lucky enough to be one the few that I can truly appreciate this video. One of your best yet Paul. Thank you!
Great Q&A. I had forgotten that I spent most of my life not knowing what a sound stage is. 20 years ago, when we moved into this house, our decorator suggested a spot that could be set up as a library and or listening area. My wife agreed that I should get a decent little stereo, so I purchased a bookshelf system of Denon electronics with Totem speakers. Reading about Totem they expounded on their ability to set a sound stage. But I did not hear it. I made some DIY speaker cables, and DIY interconnects, and bingo. I heard my first sound stage. Just barely. Then DIY took fire and along the way building DACs and amps for a now dedicated listening room, the commercial speakers from Boston Acoustics I had owned since the 80's disappeared and a wall of sound appeared just as Paul describes it. WOW. I have concluded everything matters. But it is all about transparency and phase. So, given your speakers are out from the walls, it starts with the recording and then the source is the key thing. In digital, that means a low jitter clock and a great power supply. After that, everything can subtract. Electronics and cables must be able to pass a signal without altering phase or smearing it.
THANKS FOR SHARING THIS,I HAVE LOVED ❤️ PHANTOM SOUNDSTAGE …since I discovered it many years ago 🤗 Setup, and now GREAT RECORDINGS 🤗 I bought both and now I can see the difference between them 👍😎💚💚💚
Couldn't stop laughing when you mentioned people's reaction to the diffusers, they always think they are extra speakers when they come in my room! 😆😆 👍👍
When introducing non-audiophile friends to my system, I often use "Red Headed Stranger" by Willy Nelson. Even if they are not big Country fans (I'm not) but the pressing is incredible and simple. I tell them to close their eyes, this lets their brain take the audible clues to invent the image that SHOULD be there. Then I tell them to point to Willy! You can just see the expression in their face as they realize their brain is convinced he is standing there and they can point to him! Maggies are like that! Then I teach them about "Face Time". Can you actually see his face? Is there enough sonic cues from the face? It's not just a hole with sound coming out in that spot.
Paul, you are absolutely right in that you don't need to spend massive amounts to get impressive soundstage. I have a system made up of many different pieces, a majority of which are Realistic / Optimus branded pieces (yes, the dreaded Radio Shack), most of which were bought on SPIF - the very last price reduction before throw in the bin or return to warehouse. These are mid 80's to mid 90's pieces. Most pieces were under $40 back then, but the most expensive piece was the receiver at $120 (Sansui). The main speakers are Optimus 30's, rebuilt with burnout proof ceramic voice coil former woofers. Everything has to fit in a late Victorian style twin, so against the wall is the only option. The big star of the show is the EQ. With the EQ switched out everything is 2 dimensional. Switched in, there is now a concert hall in front of me, and all the musicians are precisely located in 3d on that soundstage. That goes for the CD's, records, even tapes. So, just work with what you have in the way you can. What ever works best for you is what is right, regardless of others opinions. Please all go forward and enjoy your systems, but most importantly, the music that takes you away.
Yeah, I had high expectations for Paul's book to "properly" set up my gear. I bought one for me and another one for a friend, with the disc. Too bad the 1st half of the book waffles around and when it finally got to the point (speaker setup) I realised I'd need an American size mansion or a Russian oligarch size palace to replicate the steps. It seemed like honest, decent advice if you have that, otherwise, in an European size apartment... not so much.
I tried the techniques in my small room, sized 3x4meters. Most of those still works, only you start from (in equilateral way) 1.2 meter between speakers and front wall. And try start with speakers 60 cm away from side walls. If you are using stand mount speakers it should get good result.
I'm in a smallish American apartment and I found The Stereo book and disc to be a great help. Mostly because I was unaware of coupling. Just that bit of bringing the speakers close together to hear the midbass coupling, and then to move them apart gradually in order to gain depth of soundstage while maintaining that fullness in between the speakers. Once I had that sounding as good as it gets in my room, I began fine-tuning with toe-in. And being married, meaning the speakers don't get to be too far from the front wall most of the day, I put furniture sliders on the bottom of my tower's spiked feet in order to slide them into marked (subtly) position for listening sessions!
Every one's room is different. You need to set up "Place" your speakers for your room, 12mm this way or 12 mm that way can make big the difference. It's more than just centering the phantom speaker, like Paul said it's getting the room to just opens up.
Watched this and decided to experiment. I have my 20 yr old Monitor Audio Gold 20 mains in a surround system. Went into processor settings and turned off the center channel and rear surround speakers, leaving only mains and sub. Then I listened to music videos in stereo mode in UA-cam. Not only was the center sound stage better without the center speaker, but the mains sounded better listening to UA-cam videos in stereo than I can remember hearing them sound. I've just always left my system in DD surround.
Got to remember the vast majority of music is mastered in 2-channel so really one when listening to music one should be listening to 2-channel stereo. Btw you should try giving a hi-fi streaming music platform a go. If you think UA-cam's good, you'll be amazed the difference in sound quality! Especially if you got quality monitor Audio gold speakers .
Yes - center channels should ONLY be used for watching films and even then they're not needed unless you have an audience watching that isn't in the sweet spot and you need to center the dialogue. If it's just you, you don't need a center channel. Also, once you have a really good two channel system, you will never find a center channel that properly blends with the left and right channels acoustically, even if the speaker maker offers one.
@@VideoArchiveGuy I'm not going to say I agree with you about center channels. I think them integral to the surround system and of course audio is definitely subjective. My point was only that I had never thought to listen to UA-cam videos in stereo mode. If I play a CD the system auto-shits to 2 channel. I was surprised how much better UA-cam videos of live recordings and records sounded in 2 channel mode. That's all.
The phantom center is truly an experience. I have B&W so nowhere near the same level as FR30 so can't even begin to image the soundstage of the FR30. I know Paul does not like B&W sound but i love them
The soundstage is a combination of direct and reflected sound. It is balanced by means of speaker positioning, radiation pattern, and the acoustics of the room.
Hi. Dear Mr. Paul, I really like your videos and learn very important facts about audio systems. Since I am from Sri Lanka and unable to make your factory tour; I would like to cordially invite you to come and start one of your factory branch in Sri Lanka so that I may be able to learn more and more while enjoying your precious sound technology. Thank you and be healthy.
I really enjoy soundstage through my open back headphones, but unfortunately it’s really hard to get a proper sound stage with my loudspeakers in my small room, where the only spot for them is against a wall near a corner. Really sucks because I know my JBL 4311s can really get there. Need to wait until I have a bigger house with more freedom in the sitting room.
I think what you find in higher end systems is they give you FLEXIBILITY with a variable of choices and settings. What is a perfect soundstage to one might be crap to others. What do I mean? Some audio gear like to make it where the soundstage is huge but the singer is pushed way back like you are in a concert way far away from the stage. The music becomes hard to be engaged with as so distant. Other gear has more forward sounding stages where you feel like in a dive bar a few rows back and the singer is right there singing to you and the instruments wash over you and you get lost in the music. It's all about what you like and get out of the music. If you love the feeling of being far back in a concert setting then some gear is tuned to that. I have also seen where the instruments were too forward and overpowering the singer where the instruments seemed to be next the singer or in front. Think of soundstage like a tv screen. If you have small gear in a medium size room then the stage could be good but condensed way down or only go up to half the size of the room. When you start getting into larger speakers and higher end gear the walls seem like they almost do not exist and you have a massive stage like being outside with sound and little to no constraints. You have to find what you like and then try to get as much as possible of that within your current budget and build up from there over time or stay with what you have if it's (good enough) to you. The audiophile's journey is different for everyone.
Funny how the two most important factors for soundstage are nothing to do with the equipment quality at all. And I couldn't agree more. I love designing and building speakers and have my Audiolab 6000A and I listen to music all my (at home) woken hours. And I agree with you so much so, that it's not good recordings that make me improve my speakers, it's the bad recordings that do it more. Working with the bad recordings (just to get them more tolerable) makes good recordings sound even better than I thought possible! An example of a good recording would be NOVA "How Insensitive" (the brown sepia thumbnail version on UA-cam).
Paul, I intend coming to Colorado next year to visit my son and his family in Denver. You're on my list for a visi. As an electronics engineer myself from Trinidad & Tobago and an avid audiophiile and musician since teenage years, I'm very excited to visit your facility, if you'll have me.
The one important thing that I see missing from most of these speaker placement videos in regards to staging is how far the speakers are apart. For me it did not matter if I had an equilateral triangle set up. I did not get any "stage imaging" until my speakers were at least six feet apart...at least in my room.
Great explanation by Paul. But I do think the set-up and quality of the recording capture is the most important part of a good soundstage experience, particularly true on live recordings. If the mikes are set up on the bar, etc., it's not going to work.
I was wondering what the sprout sounds like as a monobloc bridged? have you tried it is it worth buying two?? What is the power output when it's bridged?
Paul. You are a great presenter . And surely PS Audio strategic marketer. But if my ears have ever heard '' sound stage'' Then, My DEnon PMA1315R , Hegel HD11 and a pair of Dali 18 MKII speakers are making me feel exotic
Of course, stereo is a no-brainer necessity for soundstage. Phase coherency of a loudspeaker is a primary critical parameter for soundstage. Phase coherency is the capability in loudspeakers emanating its entire frequency range at the exact moment of time. For example, 500 Hz frequency arrives to stimulate the eardrum at the exact time as a 1000 Hz. Which is not electromagnetic mechanical possible at the precise time. Primarily due to motional impedance differences of speakers. The sound process from time differentials is highly critical processing direction and distance of a sound source. Monumental creating a soundstage. This major factor was not mentioned. However, it's technical for most viewers of the podcasts.
Does anyone have the Audiophile's Guide: The Loudspeaker? Just curious how much of it is different? I already have my system perfectly dialed in with the first edition. Just wondering what the second book offers?
I heard my first sound stage from my friends McIntosh system with Bose 901s. Only trouble was the percussionist was 40 feet above the stage on the left, the oboe was floating center/right on the floor, the string sections was stacked on top of each other from floor to ceiling. and the flute was floating 50 feet above the stage on the right :) 😁😁
Surprised you got 901s to image anything. I was trying to reveal the phantom image to a friend with a pair. It only worked when I turned them backwards and covered the rear of each speaker with a towel. Their whole philosophy of direct/reflecting works against the phantom channel.
@@johnlucier5654 Maybe because the room was a cathedral ceiling? All sheet rock, no drapes, and only carpeting. Without the high ceiling maybe, I would never hear the timpani floating 40 feet above the stage. Stage being a very fluid sound vision with the 901/Macintosh combination. OR, maybe the top of the line Macintosh amp and preamp helped the soundstage a little?
Paul is slightly wrong....in a proper setup the sound not all come behind the speakers...it can also com from in front of the speakers. My reference recording is Die Fledermaus on EMI. The whole light opera plays like a circus in front of you. Some singing is far in the back and suddenly moves from the back to the front. Then the sopranos move in front of the right speaker to the middle and you can "see" them singing about one meter apart. I use a hybrid tube power amp(Valve Audio "Black Widow"), Sonic Frontiers SFL1 pre-amp, with Audioquest Midnight 3 to a pair of ESS AMT 1D's and 2 REL subs.
It depends upon the source and components; some have a more forward sound and others place the sound further back, and it's an individual preference as to which you like more.
In the eighties I had a UV meter on top of each speaker that I bought at Radio Shack, I would like to have them again on each 7.1 channel but it seems that they don't make them anymore, if anyone knows where to find them please comment.
Paul, Paul, Paul - but you left one out, and I can't believe it after I just used your newest book The Loudspeaker to set it up. You said, "setup of the speakers, the speakers themselves, the quality of the electronics, and the recording. And then you almost completed the family when you talked about the diffusers - you left out THE ROOM. I have just completed setting up a dedicated listening room and cannot believe what it has done to improve the soundstage. But even before I went to this trouble, just treating any room with some basic changes in absorption, reflection, diffusion led to enormous differences in the soundstage. So not only might those diffusers fool people into believing they're speakers, they are instrumental in helping create the soundstage the speakers are producing.
hey Mr. Paul forget about sound stage and imaging, I am wearing Stinson 6, what you wearing now?...nice shoes men!, by the way I am Pakistani American and into audiophilic systems since was kid, I rushed and went to buy a Philips radio after getting my middle school scholarship RS: 650.00 , my mother fussed but I made her proud after getting A Grade in my 10th Grade( Matric), end up with B.E Civil Eng., I must admire your effort to spread knowledge and experience, I really listen you and learn a lot, Thank you.
Speakers and room, matter. The recording matters. In between, it can be hapiness, or sorrow. It's important to go by a few rules, then you begin to "taste it". I think you can, without spending the big bucks. Some listen to gear, not music anymore. It's a trap laying in front of you, or behind your speakers. Hope you get it..we all here look for it. Cheers
Last year I set up my Adcom equipment with some Klipsch monitors in my garage for the summer. When I rearranged my garage I took all my equipment back inside and there it sat for several months. A few weeks ago I set it all up in the front room because I missed listening....boy was I disappointed. In short it sounded like garbage, so back out in the garage it went. It always sounded amazing in the garage but now It sounds even better with its new location, as if I could reach out and touch the music. My eyes are constantly scanning back and forth as different instruments are heard across the stage. Have you ever heard of a garage being such a good room for acoustics?
Allow me to elaborate my findings about soundstage. Your listening position is at the button of the triangle (lets call it A), and your speakers are each in the corners of the remote corners in the triangle, left and right. Then you imagine you have a laser beam, and you point it from your head through the speaker to the back - and you should imagine a extended triangle as a prolongation of triangle A into a new larger triangle, B. The orchestra is then sounding as standing somewhere in the triangle B! A large symphony orchestra takes much space up, and the farest musician, the drummer or horns typically say 40m in depth, and the distance from the musician from left to him at the right is virtually another 40 m. The width of the front musicians is a little shorter. You hear that the orchestra takes up the space you imagine behind the speakers. A smaller orchester takes less space, but you feel the room width at both the front and the back. You do not hear sound coming straight out of the speaker - they have disappeared.
Some reviewers online describe certain speakers as projecting the sound stage in front of the speaker itself rather than behind. I never experienced that not even in Charles and I’m not really sure how it would happen psychoacoustically
People occasionally report a 3d sound field that even has sounds from behind them. I mostly hear a stage that is deep behind the speakers. Even behind the front wall which is a trip. But I have heard live recordings where there was a stray sound from behind me causing me to jump thinking something moved behind me. So, I think if it's in the recording I might hear it.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w That happens when recorded sound is out of phase for some reason - this is literally the way basic Dolby Surround works. With a good two channel system, you will hear those surround effects "behind" you even though you do not have your surround system turned on!
Speaker placement is everything but but but..... we don't sit in a central chair all day,we move around so your never get that 'sound stage' unless you have a theatre system our you've nodded off after a hard day
In addition, the room itself is very important. Too lively and sound is bouncing off everything, too deadened and all you hear are the speakers. It all has to sync up together.
The perfectionists in me is wanting to clean the carpet and is wondering what happened in front of that magnificent system. Glad for my rule of no food or drinks 🤦
After spending multiple thousands of dollars over many years I've found the Edifier R1280db's to be the best speakers for my TV unit, anything more is a waste of money.
The soundstage and imaging are totally dependent on 1: Clean your EARS and take care of your hearing 2: Speaker to listening position set up. 3: Decent equipment not necessarily expensive. 4: Recording quality old and new music. 5: Have an open mind as to room set up technique as opposed to the equipment chase. 6: Headphones and IEM’s are a great substitute if you can’t even do a near field set up..and you can get fantastic sound without breaking the bank..or having domestic issues.
It seems like soundstage is not a result of of cutting up a pie, ie, 70% speakers, 20% recording, 10% electronics, which might be inferred to mean, say, with good speakers and electronic but a crappy recording, a pretty good sound stage still could be presented. Instead each of these are an element on a chain where upstream lacking cannot be recovered by downstream excellence.
If by professions sound technician you mean one who sets up concerts, you're correct as it's not a concern nor possible in most concert environments. If you talk to a recording studio mixing engineer, sound staging is very much something they are very much conscious of and work to create.
The background singers on Hey Joe by Jimi absolutely blew my mind. Probably the most haunting background singers in rock history. When set up properly they come from places unknown.
I’ve experienced soundstaging with mainstream av receivers - not just high end audio. It came down to proper speaker placement and decent recordings.
Only just learned about this and realised I experienced it a short while ago with what would be described as an entry level hi-fi system, and the sound was right there in front of me, not from either speaker - it was amazing 😀
Absolutely
Yes, that's right. It takes a badly designed AVR to mess up the soundstage. Of course what matters for soundstage in a system is all about speakers, placement and room acoustics.
@Douglas Blake Oh man. I guess I have some tweaking to do.
Kind of disappointed you missed this: its usually vital to close your eyes for any of this to work because our vision has the dominant path to the brain, remember we are trying to fool the brain that what it is seeing should be discarded in favor of what it is hearing.
I suggest Robert Plants "ship of fools" from Now and Zen. The techs did a great job of separation of the instruments, you can clearly hear them far outside the confines of the listening space.
Also consider not just equidistance to your ears of each speaker but if they aim just behind or in front of your ears.
Theres a saying by audiophiles when you achieve the phantom channel. "At that moment, the system became transparant." Its usually after speaker placement is perfect, eyes are closed, and you take a brief moment to breathe slowly, bring your heart rate down, and relax. Youre entering a state resembling meditation.
Thank you so much Paul and psaudio for the FR30, i was the first buyer here in germany and i have now 525hrs breakin time on them, almost done with the 600 hrs recommendation. Loved every minute of it, music and movies on a level i never thought i would listen in my homecinema/livingroom
I wish everyone could hear music in a properly set up system. Width and more importantly depth of the soundstage is a truly “goose bump” experience that just want you to listen more. It took many years but I’m lucky enough to be one the few that I can truly appreciate this video. One of your best yet Paul. Thank you!
Great Q&A.
I had forgotten that I spent most of my life not knowing what a sound stage is.
20 years ago, when we moved into this house, our decorator suggested a spot that could be set up as a library and or listening area. My wife agreed that I should get a decent little stereo, so I purchased a bookshelf system of Denon electronics with Totem speakers. Reading about Totem they expounded on their ability to set a sound stage. But I did not hear it. I made some DIY speaker cables, and DIY interconnects, and bingo. I heard my first sound stage. Just barely.
Then DIY took fire and along the way building DACs and amps for a now dedicated listening room, the commercial speakers from Boston Acoustics I had owned since the 80's disappeared and a wall of sound appeared just as Paul describes it. WOW.
I have concluded everything matters. But it is all about transparency and phase. So, given your speakers are out from the walls, it starts with the recording and then the source is the key thing. In digital, that means a low jitter clock and a great power supply. After that, everything can subtract. Electronics and cables must be able to pass a signal without altering phase or smearing it.
THANKS FOR SHARING THIS,I HAVE LOVED ❤️ PHANTOM SOUNDSTAGE …since I discovered it many years ago 🤗
Setup, and now GREAT RECORDINGS 🤗 I bought both and now I can see the difference between them 👍😎💚💚💚
Couldn't stop laughing when you mentioned people's reaction to the diffusers, they always think they are extra speakers when they come in my room! 😆😆 👍👍
When introducing non-audiophile friends to my system, I often use "Red Headed Stranger" by Willy Nelson. Even if they are not big Country fans (I'm not) but the pressing is incredible and simple. I tell them to close their eyes, this lets their brain take the audible clues to invent the image that SHOULD be there. Then I tell them to point to Willy! You can just see the expression in their face as they realize their brain is convinced he is standing there and they can point to him! Maggies are like that!
Then I teach them about "Face Time". Can you actually see his face? Is there enough sonic cues from the face? It's not just a hole with sound coming out in that spot.
You are by far the coolest owner of any home audio company, actually any company period great work from Buffalo NY!!!!
Hey fellow wny! Mind telling me what you have for a setup? I am brand new to this and have only ever heard my modest little system.
The PS Audio book is outstanding. It is easy to follow and results in great stereo setup.
I love my PSAudio equipment and I have always enjoyed your videos and, I noticed that you are wearing HOKA shoes -- they are the best.
Paul, you are absolutely right in that you don't need to spend massive amounts to get impressive soundstage. I have a system made up of many different pieces, a majority of which are Realistic / Optimus branded pieces (yes, the dreaded Radio Shack), most of which were bought on SPIF - the very last price reduction before throw in the bin or return to warehouse. These are mid 80's to mid 90's pieces. Most pieces were under $40 back then, but the most expensive piece was the receiver at $120 (Sansui). The main speakers are Optimus 30's, rebuilt with burnout proof ceramic voice coil former woofers. Everything has to fit in a late Victorian style twin, so against the wall is the only option. The big star of the show is the EQ. With the EQ switched out everything is 2 dimensional. Switched in, there is now a concert hall in front of me, and all the musicians are precisely located in 3d on that soundstage. That goes for the CD's, records, even tapes.
So, just work with what you have in the way you can. What ever works best for you is what is right, regardless of others opinions. Please all go forward and enjoy your systems, but most importantly, the music that takes you away.
Yeah, I had high expectations for Paul's book to "properly" set up my gear. I bought one for me and another one for a friend, with the disc. Too bad the 1st half of the book waffles around and when it finally got to the point (speaker setup) I realised I'd need an American size mansion or a Russian oligarch size palace to replicate the steps. It seemed like honest, decent advice if you have that, otherwise, in an European size apartment... not so much.
New Record day, has a set up video, "audiophile sounds in small rooms" it worked for me, it's worth trying.
I tried the techniques in my small room, sized 3x4meters. Most of those still works, only you start from (in equilateral way) 1.2 meter between speakers and front wall. And try start with speakers 60 cm away from side walls. If you are using stand mount speakers it should get good result.
I'm in a smallish American apartment and I found The Stereo book and disc to be a great help. Mostly because I was unaware of coupling. Just that bit of bringing the speakers close together to hear the midbass coupling, and then to move them apart gradually in order to gain depth of soundstage while maintaining that fullness in between the speakers. Once I had that sounding as good as it gets in my room, I began fine-tuning with toe-in.
And being married, meaning the speakers don't get to be too far from the front wall most of the day, I put furniture sliders on the bottom of my tower's spiked feet in order to slide them into marked (subtly) position for listening sessions!
Go near field set up…it’s amazing.
Every one's room is different. You need to set up "Place" your speakers for your room, 12mm this way or 12 mm that way can make big the difference. It's more than just centering the phantom speaker, like Paul said it's getting the room to just opens up.
Good video
Watched this and decided to experiment. I have my 20 yr old Monitor Audio Gold 20 mains in a surround system. Went into processor settings and turned off the center channel and rear surround speakers, leaving only mains and sub. Then I listened to music videos in stereo mode in UA-cam. Not only was the center sound stage better without the center speaker, but the mains sounded better listening to UA-cam videos in stereo than I can remember hearing them sound. I've just always left my system in DD surround.
Got to remember the vast majority of music is mastered in 2-channel so really one when listening to music one should be listening to 2-channel stereo. Btw you should try giving a hi-fi streaming music platform a go. If you think UA-cam's good, you'll be amazed the difference in sound quality! Especially if you got quality monitor Audio gold speakers .
Yes - center channels should ONLY be used for watching films and even then they're not needed unless you have an audience watching that isn't in the sweet spot and you need to center the dialogue.
If it's just you, you don't need a center channel.
Also, once you have a really good two channel system, you will never find a center channel that properly blends with the left and right channels acoustically, even if the speaker maker offers one.
@@VideoArchiveGuy I'm not going to say I agree with you about center channels. I think them integral to the surround system and of course audio is definitely subjective. My point was only that I had never thought to listen to UA-cam videos in stereo mode. If I play a CD the system auto-shits to 2 channel. I was surprised how much better UA-cam videos of live recordings and records sounded in 2 channel mode. That's all.
Jeez..the Juke Box in Dad's bar (in the 60's and 70's) had a GREAT soundstage. And so does my "cheap" living room system.
The phantom center is truly an experience. I have B&W so nowhere near the same level as FR30 so can't even begin to image the soundstage of the FR30. I know Paul does not like B&W sound but i love them
The soundstage is a combination of direct and reflected sound. It is balanced by means of speaker positioning, radiation pattern, and the acoustics of the room.
Hi. Dear Mr. Paul, I really like your videos and learn very important facts about audio systems. Since I am from Sri Lanka and unable to make your factory tour; I would like to cordially invite you to come and start one of your factory branch in Sri Lanka so that I may be able to learn more and more while enjoying your precious sound technology. Thank you and be healthy.
I really enjoy soundstage through my open back headphones, but unfortunately it’s really hard to get a proper sound stage with my loudspeakers in my small room, where the only spot for them is against a wall near a corner. Really sucks because I know my JBL 4311s can really get there. Need to wait until I have a bigger house with more freedom in the sitting room.
I’ve had my 4311’s since 78 and they can still put out some awesome sound!!
Read my reply. The extent in reproduction of a soundstage is more complex than most audiophiles would think.
I think what you find in higher end systems is they give you FLEXIBILITY with a variable of choices and settings. What is a perfect soundstage to one might be crap to others. What do I mean? Some audio gear like to make it where the soundstage is huge but the singer is pushed way back like you are in a concert way far away from the stage. The music becomes hard to be engaged with as so distant. Other gear has more forward sounding stages where you feel like in a dive bar a few rows back and the singer is right there singing to you and the instruments wash over you and you get lost in the music. It's all about what you like and get out of the music. If you love the feeling of being far back in a concert setting then some gear is tuned to that. I have also seen where the instruments were too forward and overpowering the singer where the instruments seemed to be next the singer or in front. Think of soundstage like a tv screen. If you have small gear in a medium size room then the stage could be good but condensed way down or only go up to half the size of the room. When you start getting into larger speakers and higher end gear the walls seem like they almost do not exist and you have a massive stage like being outside with sound and little to no constraints. You have to find what you like and then try to get as much as possible of that within your current budget and build up from there over time or stay with what you have if it's (good enough) to you. The audiophile's journey is different for everyone.
....and my singer/songwriter friend who records her on music now....makes me listen to her iPhone speaker...we are worlds apart.
Funny how the two most important factors for soundstage are nothing to do with the equipment quality at all. And I couldn't agree more. I love designing and building speakers and have my Audiolab 6000A and I listen to music all my (at home) woken hours. And I agree with you so much so, that it's not good recordings that make me improve my speakers, it's the bad recordings that do it more. Working with the bad recordings (just to get them more tolerable) makes good recordings sound even better than I thought possible! An example of a good recording would be NOVA "How Insensitive" (the brown sepia thumbnail version on UA-cam).
Paul, I intend coming to Colorado next year to visit my son and his family in Denver. You're on my list for a visi. As an electronics engineer myself from Trinidad & Tobago and an avid audiophiile and musician since teenage years, I'm very excited to visit your facility, if you'll have me.
The one important thing that I see missing from most of these speaker placement videos in regards to staging is how far the speakers are apart. For me it did not matter if I had an equilateral triangle set up. I did not get any "stage imaging" until my speakers were at least six feet apart...at least in my room.
Great explanation by Paul. But I do think the set-up and quality of the recording capture is the most important part of a good soundstage experience, particularly true on live recordings. If the mikes are set up on the bar, etc., it's not going to work.
I was wondering what the sprout sounds like as a monobloc bridged? have you tried it is it worth buying two??
What is the power output when it's bridged?
Paul. You are a great presenter . And surely PS Audio strategic marketer. But if my ears have ever heard '' sound stage'' Then, My DEnon PMA1315R , Hegel HD11 and a pair of Dali 18 MKII speakers are making me feel exotic
Of course, stereo is a no-brainer necessity for soundstage. Phase coherency of a loudspeaker is a primary critical parameter for soundstage. Phase coherency is the capability in loudspeakers emanating its entire frequency range at the exact moment of time. For example, 500 Hz frequency arrives to stimulate the eardrum at the exact time as a 1000 Hz. Which is not electromagnetic mechanical possible at the precise time. Primarily due to motional impedance differences of speakers. The sound process from time differentials is highly critical processing direction and distance of a sound source. Monumental creating a soundstage. This major factor was not mentioned. However, it's technical for most viewers of the podcasts.
yep when you get it right. YOU NEVER GO BACK
Does anyone have the Audiophile's Guide: The Loudspeaker? Just curious how much of it is different? I already have my system perfectly dialed in with the first edition. Just wondering what the second book offers?
You already have it "dialed in perfectly".stop thinking about it and just get back to actual music.
True, but why did he upgrade it. Lol
I heard my first sound stage from my friends McIntosh system with Bose 901s. Only trouble was the percussionist was 40 feet above the stage on the left, the oboe was floating center/right on the floor, the string sections was stacked on top of each other from floor to ceiling. and the flute was floating 50 feet above the stage on the right :) 😁😁
That sounds more interesting than 10 floating female Hologram’s flying around the room singing with the orchestra playing on all the walls.
@@davidfromamerica1871 :) 😊😊
Surprised you got 901s to image anything. I was trying to reveal the phantom image to a friend with a pair. It only worked when I turned them backwards and covered the rear of each speaker with a towel. Their whole philosophy of direct/reflecting works against the phantom channel.
@@johnlucier5654 Maybe because the room was a cathedral ceiling? All sheet rock, no drapes, and only carpeting. Without the high ceiling maybe, I would never hear the timpani floating 40 feet above the stage. Stage being a very fluid sound vision with the 901/Macintosh combination. OR, maybe the top of the line Macintosh amp and preamp helped the soundstage a little?
Paul is slightly wrong....in a proper setup the sound not all come behind the speakers...it can also com from in front of the speakers. My reference recording is Die Fledermaus on EMI. The whole light opera plays like a circus in front of you. Some singing is far in the back and suddenly moves from the back to the front. Then the sopranos move in front of the right speaker to the middle and you can "see" them singing about one meter apart. I use a hybrid tube power amp(Valve Audio "Black Widow"), Sonic Frontiers SFL1 pre-amp, with Audioquest Midnight 3 to a pair of ESS AMT 1D's and 2 REL subs.
It depends upon the source and components; some have a more forward sound and others place the sound further back, and it's an individual preference as to which you like more.
I have found recording makes the most difference.
In the eighties I had a UV meter on top of each speaker that I bought at Radio Shack, I would like to have them again on each 7.1 channel but it seems that they don't make them anymore, if anyone knows where to find them please comment.
How does this work with electrostatic speakers that produce sound in both directions
Paul, Paul, Paul - but you left one out, and I can't believe it after I just used your newest book The Loudspeaker to set it up. You said, "setup of the speakers, the speakers themselves, the quality of the electronics, and the recording. And then you almost completed the family when you talked about the diffusers - you left out THE ROOM. I have just completed setting up a dedicated listening room and cannot believe what it has done to improve the soundstage. But even before I went to this trouble, just treating any room with some basic changes in absorption, reflection, diffusion led to enormous differences in the soundstage. So not only might those diffusers fool people into believing they're speakers, they are instrumental in helping create the soundstage the speakers are producing.
hey Mr. Paul forget about sound stage and imaging, I am wearing Stinson 6, what you wearing now?...nice shoes men!, by the way I am Pakistani American and into audiophilic systems since was kid, I rushed and went to buy a Philips radio after getting my middle school scholarship RS: 650.00 , my mother fussed but I made her proud after getting A Grade in my 10th Grade( Matric), end up with B.E Civil Eng., I must admire your effort to spread knowledge and experience, I really listen you and learn a lot, Thank you.
Speakers and room, matter. The recording matters. In between, it can be hapiness, or sorrow. It's important to go by a few rules, then you begin to "taste it". I think you can, without spending the big bucks. Some listen to gear, not music anymore. It's a trap laying in front of you, or behind your speakers. Hope you get it..we all here look for it. Cheers
Have you ever thought abouy putting the disc for the book on Tidal etc? There are many of us who don't even own a cd-player... Best, Filip from Sweden
Last year I set up my Adcom equipment with some Klipsch monitors in my garage for the summer. When I rearranged my garage I took all my equipment back inside and there it sat for several months. A few weeks ago I set it all up in the front room because I missed listening....boy was I disappointed. In short it sounded like garbage, so back out in the garage it went. It always sounded amazing in the garage but now It sounds even better with its new location, as if I could reach out and touch the music. My eyes are constantly scanning back and forth as different instruments are heard across the stage. Have you ever heard of a garage being such a good room for acoustics?
Allow me to elaborate my findings about soundstage. Your listening position is at the button of the triangle (lets call it A), and your speakers are each in the corners of the remote corners in the triangle, left and right. Then you imagine you have a laser beam, and you point it from your head through the speaker to the back - and you should imagine a extended triangle as a prolongation of triangle A into a new larger triangle, B. The orchestra is then sounding as standing somewhere in the triangle B! A large symphony orchestra takes much space up, and the farest musician, the drummer or horns typically say 40m in depth, and the distance from the musician from left to him at the right is virtually another 40 m. The width of the front musicians is a little shorter. You hear that the orchestra takes up the space you imagine behind the speakers.
A smaller orchester takes less space, but you feel the room width at both the front and the back. You do not hear sound coming straight out of the speaker - they have disappeared.
Good room treatment is important. Half the sound you hear is the room.
Is anything supposed to seem like it's in front of the speakers with a proper soundstage?
Yes. And everywhere else to. Now with atmos.. it can come from anywhere... even with two speakers. . TRICKS
Some reviewers online describe certain speakers as projecting the sound stage in front of the speaker itself rather than behind. I never experienced that not even in Charles and I’m not really sure how it would happen psychoacoustically
People occasionally report a 3d sound field that even has sounds from behind them. I mostly hear a stage that is deep behind the speakers. Even behind the front wall which is a trip.
But I have heard live recordings where there was a stray sound from behind me causing me to jump thinking something moved behind me. So, I think if it's in the recording I might hear it.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w Q sound does that... try amused to death by roger waters
@@user-od9iz9cv1w That happens when recorded sound is out of phase for some reason - this is literally the way basic Dolby Surround works.
With a good two channel system, you will hear those surround effects "behind" you even though you do not have your surround system turned on!
I’ve created soundstage by placing diffusion panels on my computer screen on my desktop system.
Paul! There is a wrinkle in the PS Audio rug!!!
Speaker placement is everything but but but..... we don't sit in a central chair all day,we move around so your never get that 'sound stage' unless you have a theatre system our you've nodded off after a hard day
In addition, the room itself is very important. Too lively and sound is bouncing off everything, too deadened and all you hear are the speakers. It all has to sync up together.
The perfectionists in me is wanting to clean the carpet and is wondering what happened in front of that magnificent system. Glad for my rule of no food or drinks 🤦
The room doesn't matter, Paul...? 😉
After spending multiple thousands of dollars over many years I've found the Edifier R1280db's to be the best speakers for my TV unit, anything more is a waste of money.
I rather think the room is pretty important
With a created phantom center channel why do home theaters need a center speaker?
The soundstage and imaging are totally dependent on
1: Clean your EARS and take care of your hearing
2: Speaker to listening position set up.
3: Decent equipment not necessarily expensive.
4: Recording quality old and new music.
5: Have an open mind as to room set up technique as opposed to the equipment chase.
6: Headphones and IEM’s are a great substitute if you can’t even do a near field set up..and you can get fantastic sound without breaking the bank..or having domestic issues.
It seems like soundstage is not a result of of cutting up a pie, ie, 70% speakers, 20% recording, 10% electronics, which might be inferred to mean, say, with good speakers and electronic but a crappy recording, a pretty good sound stage still could be presented. Instead each of these are an element on a chain where upstream lacking cannot be recovered by downstream excellence.
The more I watch these PS Audio videos, the more I like my $20.00 Bluetooth speaker.
CLOSE YOUR EYES.
Paper.....
It’s pronounced pot-oh-mack
Horrible speaker with pass lab.
Would you care to elaborate on this?
Soundstage is a lie. Ask any professional sound technician.
@Douglas Blake Yes, and so is God.
@Douglas Blake Sure, I meant no disrespect.
@Douglas Blake I talk religion everywhere I want ;)
@Douglas Blake No
If by professions sound technician you mean one who sets up concerts, you're correct as it's not a concern nor possible in most concert environments.
If you talk to a recording studio mixing engineer, sound staging is very much something they are very much conscious of and work to create.
Who wants sound behind the speakers? 😂 That's not soundstage.