@@CitizenScott you completely missed his analogy, and yes, SC was supposed to have player interaction, but all the sadistic pvpers see is murder and nothing else. His analogy is spot on, there are pvpers, and then there are those who just take delight in ruining other peoples play. and you can say thats not true but we all see the chat where the state outright that they love to upset others and its what makes the game fun for them
They should have it so that wearing Xenothreat armor in other areas makes you hostile/enemy, so it is more than just reputation, but how you dress that matters to the other gangs.
CIG needs to hire Ray as a consultant. Love all the ideas presented, would be nice if wearing Xeno threat armor would lower the Xeno threat npcs detection threshold regardless of rep to allow for sneaky stealth heists
ive always said that games should have that, if you are in a pirate outfit, you should agro law, if you are in an enemy outfit, you should agro other gangs, and as you said, if you wear certain outfits, you should blend in a little
Excellent suggestions, and funnily enough I was rewatching some old SCL videos because some people on spectrum/reddit are convinced CIG have no plans to address PvPvE rep, and years ago CIG actually did address this. Only, Dave Haddick used the Overlords gang as an example, noting that getting your rep too high with them will result in almost every other gang in Pyro having max hostility towards you, so that will be interesting. But I like the added minutiae that you mentioned about the VIP status via max rep. I think that would make for a great counter-balance, as it would definitely make people think twice about shooting first.
Great video! Love the Rough and Ready reputation idea. My sadistic PvP analogy was old men in a park playing chess on a park bench getting tackled by teenagers playing football nearby and told to train in the basics of football to learn how to avoid being tackled. Your darts analogy is much simpler and easier to see the issue of forcing others to play your game style.
@@CitizenScott Spoken like a true narcissistic sadist. I specifically said park bench, not the 50 yard line. Difference is I freely concede that playing in bounds of the football field means you accept the possibility of getting hit. Your "accurate analogy" conveys that you think nothing is out of bounds and that it is always appropriate to force someone else to play with you in your preferred game-style because the entire game is an open PvP free-for-all for your enjoyment above any other's. When you choose to gank someone who is otherwise minding their own bushiness and has little of value to pirate - instead of finding someone else who legitimately likes to fight or has squired valuable material - then you are a sadist.
@@tlprescott1 "Nothing is out of bounds," is exactly right. Not according to me though. According to CIG... "Open PvP without artificial limitations." "Danger everywhere... with consequences." "So you can turn [the PvP chance] down, but you can never turn it all the way off." "There will be factions that really like it when you go around killing players..." "We'll never 100% guarantee you're 100% safe, and frankly we don't want to do that." CIGs words, not mine. Guess the devs are "true sadistic narcissists" huh? Not only do they make the game, but they openly engage in exactly the gameplay you think gives you the moral superiority to judge total strangers from a position of objective ignorance. Either way, sounds like you didn't know what game you backed.
@@CitizenScott Cherry picking only the select quotes that seem to support your view is not "proof" and makes you look foolish. I support your choice to act like an IRL criminal. We just need the law and order system to allow a jury of your peers to permanently ban your account like an IRL death sentence. In spite of what CIG marketing says, they know where their funding comes from. Faced with losing funding from all those who want to be left alone, they will throw gankers under the bus in a heartbeat. Be careful what you advocate for ("sounds like you didn't know what game you backed") because gankers can not fund the game alone and I have no doubt that CIG will follow the money.
There's a ton they could be doing with Xenothreat, or other similar "bad factions". But you're right, griefing is sadistic. There's reasons other MMOs made early level zones PVP free, so people just casually playing don't get the experience ruined.
I think your darts analogy is on point. PvP may be part of the game but that does not mean that it is no consequence. Xenothreat would be good to have somewhere in Pyro.
Can't wait to actually choose sides on Xeno Threat missions. Can't say I completely agree with your thoughts on the law system but would be very interesting and it could work. Thanks for the video
I always enjoyed the XenoThreat mission - when it worked. Now with server meshing online and XenoThreat's main base in the now-accessible Pyro system, CIG has a real opportunity to run the XT mission again with improved performance and also to expand the story to include a raid into Pyro.
I often say that you put into words what i was already thinking (in a good way - its like having a half-formed opinion that is sitting in my mind presented to me in a more fully formed manner). But i have to say this video is about the best set of opinions on how the game could/should be developed. In this case, those half-baked ideas in my head weren't even out of some larval form before you came in and massaged my brainwaves with such wisdom. seriously impressed and feeling very hopeful that CIG could do amazing things if they just copy everything you said, or maybe even something truly phenomenal if they take the ideas and add their own
I really like the reputation idea for helping take care of griefing! I'm a bunker enthusiast so getting a Xenothreat base to raid would be ideal for my play style. Keep the ideas coming!
I'm wouldn't be surprised if they reveal a huge Xenothreat base or isolated space station during a community event. I think hVing it ve an isolated space station base sinilar to what could ve build with base building would be s great test for those systems on calibrating how hard it is to lsy siege to a soace station and taking it over. Plus it would explain how Xenothreat can maintain a fleet containnng Idris.
5:36 Jumptown Yes Yes Yes In addition to bringing raw materials to location for conversion with this suggestion Also add some kind of power plant or maybe something that needs the fuse/relay items to healthy and operable for the facility to be operational. If an A2 comes in and blasts the place, these things would need replacement. Maybe a turret or two in the surrounding area with the same fuse/relay component stuff that allows for them to be operated by players. This is just a half baked idea, without the balance details, but this would be fun
I don't know where you have been in Pyro, but I dealt with the Torp Gank at the gate and on bloom for days. Now Pyro is nearly empty because of it. So while you may not be having problems, many have and we are sick of it.
That's completely false. Lots of people have been going through the gate just fine; and there are turrets guarding the areas surrounding the station and the gate. Also, exiting the gate is random, so it's impossible to gank at the gate. This kind of troll only works for people who don't play the game.
I'd like to see Xenothreat be a significant presence with high level mission sets based around their activities. It's the perfect Org target with high payoff missions and loot.
I know most of what you are suggesting is coming in some form or other eventually, but I definitely agree that Xenothreat should have either a moon or a special space station they constructed themselves that’s not on any maps (you get the coordinates or something from high rep with a Pyro faction and finishing a big mission chain for example) and the more they are able to build up the more they start raiding other factions and you start having random encounters with them and stuff. As for the combined arms PvP areas, that is what the asteroid bases are for. Ideally you enter one of those with a couple squads of people and you have a small wing of fighters stationed outside to fend off anyone from making station ingress. The people already there are expecting PvP and are prepared for it and anyone going there should be expecting PvP, so there is t really the “issue” of forcing PvP on anyone who doesn’t want it.
I have had a blast picking on Xenothreat with my org mates, working on CFP rep all while sending zealots to the compost bin has been exhilarating. But yes, they most certainly should have a VERY well protected military stronghold on terminus, in orbit or on a lunar body. People with my rep standing with them wouldn’t be able to get close without a small fleet for lateral support.
@@RaysGuide this right here, and they even say as much in the forums and the chat. They believe that if you dont train as much as them and "git gud" you deserve to be killed
Those suggestions sound great. We definitely need actual consequences for more deviant gameplay especially for the griefers that crash those big PvE events like phase 3 of Save Stanton, or the Security Post Kareah and Idris missions in Overdrive.
The whole part about "they'll ignore me because i'm naked" and the "hangar spawns prevent hab camping" is null and void, because the stations are armistice zones outside of the contested zones. In the Pyro tech preview, it was one station and it was a bug with armistice that caused the hab camping/fights in the station.
Just goes to show he has no idea what he's talking about since neither of those mechanics are a thing the way he implies they are. Hangar spawning was disabled about a day after launch of 4.0 and like you said there's been full-on armistice zones on stations in 4.0 since evocati ptu. Not even the darts analogy makes any sense because Pyro has been tagged as a very dangerous place to be in since its concept. Just being in Pyro is taking an informed risk, not like sitting in a bar where generally you can expect to be safe and left alone lmfao.
As always well presented, I think a lot of gankers gave up after while. Pyro is a lot bigger than Stanton and you avoid them if you can get clear of the stations and have a bed log out ship
Nodding along in agreement with everything you said. It's "lawless", not "anarchy". No doubt some people want a free for all without consequences and say that "carebears" should go back to Stanton, but I like that reputation system idea a lot. It's needed, and it creates more gameplay. Not to mention consequences.
Don't forget that players are no less targets for pirates than AI. As long as the pirate is looting the ship or stealing the cargo, assuming they surrender and don't get completely destroyed, that is not ganking it is legitimate piracy.
no one has a problem with legfitimate piracy , its the murder hobo. and psychopathic killing for the sake of it that just destroys everyones fun in the game
Great video, I agree on everything but one thing, I've encountered nothing but the sadistic players (I'm not afraid to call them that) in Pyro at every POI or mission destination. Making it impossible to even build rep with the local gangs, the whole notion that Pyro is going to be nothing but a griefers hellhole is very much true
Xeno Threat feel familiar from the Xenos in Freelancer, that made me wonder if the ‘prosperity mob’ are Zoner analogues, guess I’d better get to Pyro and find out :)
I really like how succinct you are in your explanation of things, I still wont be going to pyro, as I am sure many others wont as well, and eventually it will be just a few daring industrial players and lonely pvpers, the sadistic players will have made it just not worth it to be there even though from the videos it looks like a very pretty place to explore. I do agree with your take on the rep though and they definitely need to make that a priority, but it should include rep from stanton as well. the big thing I want to see is that people with CS all the time, that the rep stay with them like the stain it would be in real life, they might be cool in pyro, but they wouldnt be welcome in stanton. they always talk about high risk high reward, hows that for real risk, it shouldnt just be the lawful players who have risk. Xenothreat bases? its either or to me, but it makes sense if they are such a threat that they would need some place to gather.
Xenothreat should have a quite substantial force in Pyro. But the majority of it should be a system outside of Pyro. Maybe one yet to be discovered by uncharted jumppoints.
I love the lore-building that has gone into Pyro. I'll be supporting the Citizens for Prosperity... with reservations... since their headquarters are in Lorville and I don't trust anyone based there. Even Eckhart will try and get you to murder law-abiding competitors. The lore that went into Rough & Ready as the gang controlling most of the stations is a good way to encourage a certain amount of civility. I'm really curious to see how XenoThreat controlling their own station is going to work out and how much of the planet below they'll eventually control. It's got to be significant if they can keep sending in capital ships to assault Stanton. The armour discussion on SCL recently reminded me of the Overlords. They're established enough in the lore to have their own dedicated Subscriber Flair. Are they going to be a fully independent gang with their own base? Will they be allies with another gang? Frontier Fighters? XenoThreat?
I am really starting to wonder if CIG has what it takes to put these tech systems together in a fun way. A bunch o devs can make tech, but it takes a true artist to make a game fun.
state of pyro is you sit an hour in the loading screen getting 30ks after a queue of 290, try to farm money in stanton but the hangars on NB don't open and you have to queue on stations when there isn't even anyone around, but when there is they will block you from flying into your hangar, but even if not the doors will close after a few seconds while you're still on your way to it. only to then eventually arrive prepared in pyro to fly around a planet and get a black screen.
For me I would love for VOIP to work correctly then I can feel like when I decide to pirate (which I don't do often) I can at least interact and give people a chance and not shoot them. Did one yesterday and took a ship with cargo which was carbon about 30-50 SCU worth so though ah that might give a decent pay out. Got 91 UEC...
the problem with pvp is that its the only game loop that can be forced on other players. I cant make you mine, I cant make you salvage, I cant make you haul cargo or any other game loop, only pvpers can force people to play their game loop. PvPers say they want to challenge themselves, then they go in big groups and look for solo players in industrial ships. oooh big challenge. Rays points were spot on, CiG needs to make sure the players who are only interested in murdering others have some place to keep them busy out of the way of players who actually are interested in other content
@XxTavoRxX but I wouldn't want it to be as absolute as a separate server. Having to keep my eye out and having to maybe have to make a run for it or maybe having a run end in tragedy adds a little spice to things.
@@RaysGuide fair enough, I use the separate server analogy to make a point, you never proposed it, I just say that many other MMOs came to the conclusion that it was necessary. I am not opposed to PvP, hell, I play CoD and many others, I just think that there needs to be consequences for it in an open world sim, if there are severe consequences for industrial players in pyro, there should be severe consequences for unlawful players in Stanton, and that rep should follow them
Sadly with the latest 4.0 hotfix, CIG disabled spawning in your hangar and put you back in the HABs again. I suspect its because to many people coming in at one time and the game runs out of starport doors to map to instanced hangars. And I agree that XenoThreat is missing from Pyro. They were supposed to be launching attacks from Pyro, so why arent we seeing them here?
"It was discovered that the very recent change to allow players to spawn directly in the Hangar has had some unintended reduction in overall performance of the backend infrastructure. Spawning directly in the Hangar has been temporarily disabled so we can monitor the environment without this added load and ensure that this is the only cause of this issue."
@@LucidStrike Yeah, i saw that but its really a non-statement. But when you look at places like Area 18 that only has 20 hangars and many players have large or XL hangars from ships, if even 10 such people all log in and are at their hangar getting setup to play at the same time, there wont be enough starport locations of that size to map them all too. The system has to pre-allocate those resources up front as you log in instead of piecemeal as people get to the star ports...
I haven't been to Pryo yet. But it feels like there is a lot more players hunting players in Stanton. I kinda assuming they are just trying to hunt the new/easy players to kill with no long term rep consequences this will keep happening.
Would XenoThreat really hold a plot of land though? This idea runs parallel to thoughts I've had about GrimHEX effectively being a pirate base inside the jurisdiction of Crusader - when something is annoying and accessible, _and_ is overpowered by those who find it annoying and accessible, then it's going to get cleared out. XenoThreat might be hiding outside of UEE jurisdiction, but if the UEE knows exactly where they are they should by rights be on the losing side of a war. I love the darts analogy. 😂
Well, you have two questions. First, whether Xeno would hold a plot of land. Not out of desire but out of necessity Ships need places to be resupplied and maintained. Troops need places to train and muster, etc. The second question is if so why hasn't the fleet just come in and cleared them out? First, that was one reason why I thought the base would be underground. The second is that Xeno undoubtedly has observers at the jump point and would see any fleet coming through, giving Xeno time enough to execute their undoubtedly well rehearsed drill to evacuate and disperse.
@@RaysGuideTo build on both ideas, you could have Xenothreat cycle through several abandoned docks on Terminus as kind of a larger "combat" Jumptown, and in line with your combined arms for PvPvE. Make it so the other factions are going in to not only disrupt Xenothreat, but also steal components and supplies Xenothreat is stockpiling (Think military grade components, weapons, etc). "Pyro Amalgamated left behind several drydocks in the outer system, which were originally used to repair and refit their mining fleet. These abandoned docks are nominally controlled by Xenothreat, however in order to keep rival gangs (and UEE Intelligence) guessing, they rarely spend considerable time at any one dock, as this presents a target too hard to ignore."
@@RaysGuide I feel like they would just maintain a mobile existence. A fleet in the middle of nowhere. Any time they have a need to set up camp, detachments could occupy whatever stations they feel are convenient in the moment - they'd have the manpower - and after a short stay they'd leave again to rejoin the fleet. If they have no identifiable base, but plenty of sympathisers (or temporarily forced labour) then the UEE would be chasing ghosts. I'm thinking Star Wars Rebel Alliance type thoughts here - Hoth didn't work out too well, but a fleet in deep space remained elusive. 🤔 Always on the move and never hanging around for long.
Weren't distribution centres also supposed to be the group PvP challenge areas but they got pulled from 4.0 because of the terrible performance in testing? Xenothreat distribution centres with air defenses could work (I wonder if it would be possible to earn reputation with XT by defending them?). Giving PvP'ers genuine opportunities to face off against each other will work for the majority, but there are always those who are not really looking for a 'fair' fight... the sociopathic bullies who want to ruin your day just for the lulz.
@@nixlad sure it is, as much as your " go play something that wont hurt your feelings" considering the whole concept of "possibility of PVP" doesnt mean murder everyone with no consequence hurt your feelings. CiG always said there would be consequence, thats why the rep.
I like the darts analogy, but I think the fight club movie summarises it in a grittier way. The "get in a fight with someone" task is what it feels like in the game at the moment.
You can rationalize “non-consensual pvp” being bad, whichever way you want. CIG is never going to bend the knee to you lot who want chivalrous, voluntary PVP as every PVP encounter. It’s a ridiculous idea anyway, as there’d be no danger anywhere. Call it sadistic or evil all you want, but it’s never going to stop. You can complain and ruminate on “what CIG should do” to combat you being styled on all day and night, it’a not gonna make the “sadists” go away. You are literally just salty and want even more consequences so Pyro becomes more peaceful and space trucker dad friendly, when it was always intended for it to be a dangerous, lawless system of crime and risk.
personally I dont care what happens, I dont intend on ever going to Pyro. But every other major MMO has realized, ignoring the larger demagraphic doesnt work and they have created PvP and Coop PVE modes for that reason. O, and he never said eliminate PVP, he gave good solutions to ensure PVPers have the content they enjoy thereby allowing others to have the playstyle they enjoy. Do you personally look for easy targets not in combat ships so that you can mess their gameplay?
@@XxTavoRxX Anti-PVPers are definitely not the "majority" demographic. The solutions he provided are turning Pyro into a high security system, contradicting the entire point of Pyro. As for my playstyle? If I'm in Pyro, and see an opportunity to gain cargo or money from a player, I will give them an ultimatum to give me their cargo or I will take it from them. This is intended gameplay. In Stanton I'm pretty peaceful unless attacked. If this is somehow offensive to you, or you consider people who play like this to be "psychopaths" like the rest of this comment section, I think that is a ridiculous assessment.
@@nixladfirst, I am not anti PvP and I certainly didn't see that Ray is either, he seems to want to find ways to incorporate all forms of playstyle. Second, Pyro is Pyro, I am not ever going there so, if people play, as you say, in the intended way will have no effect on me. As I have stated, I don't like the toxic players who want to drag non PvP players into combat and then say it's because they want a challenge when that's clearly BS. I have stated in other parts of this comment section my opinion of laws and limitations and the necessity therein for the greater player base to be able to play all the game loops. Yes, I believe that polls Show that non PvP, not anti, but players who want to play non PvP loops are a greater portion of the player base. Lastly, I don't care if a game allows it, if a player takes joy in ruining other people's gameplay they are sadistic, by definition. Players that only want to PvP are not, those that play a sadistic gameplay style are, even if that style is allowed. Ergo why entities are despised by society at large, even in game, groups like xenothreat.
Your personal experience of not being found in game and shot is made possible by the lack of the long range scanning feature not being in the game yet. My fleet is made to do that on day 1 of that features release. I will expect payment to divert my eye's. The rep system is a content generation reward system. It's not a locked game play rule enforcement system like a PvP game's matchmaker with game mode selection. Players are allowed to do whatever they want with who ever they want at any others disadvantage whether their new or not in any system not just Pyro. SC's prison system is also content meant to provide breathing room from forced PvP situations that with the escape feature allows circumventing the process for a faster return to what the player was doing. I'll shoot naked players because that means they can't pick up loot or scout for another team. It will also count towards killing that players character for death of a space man in the future. What SC needs in the future is a telegraphed role play system that locks gameplay rules by player choices into how they'll deal with each other like in a single players three choice dialogue system and a customizable mission/quest system that mirrors the benefits of matchmade game modes in a pvp arena shooter game capable of keeping team sizes the same vs each other. Fair gameplay loops can be fostered this way in a MMO environment void of most seal clubbing by zergging and it allows anyone to join in without the mistrust barrier for entry into groups that drives people away from playing a game.
"What SC needs in the future is a telegraphed role play system that locks gameplay rules by player choices into how they'll deal with each other like in a single players three choice dialogue system and a customizable mission/quest system that mirrors the benefits of matchmade game modes in a pvp arena shooter game capable of keeping team sizes the same vs each other. Fair gameplay loops can be fostered this way in a MMO environment void of most seal clubbing by zergging and it allows anyone to join in without the mistrust barrier for entry into groups that drives people away from playing a game." Can you give an example of this? I am not familiar with what you mean and I am curious to understand
If they create a space and combined area would they shove some sort of resource that Crafters / industrialists and therefore traders need to make high level stuff? I’m fine with PVP and get involved in it but I don’t really want it to control my industrial gameplay to a point that I have no choice but to PVP. In other words, back in that darts game, the sadist gets to throw darts wherever they feel they hurt the mostwith no consequence and the targets have to stand still with the guy controlling the game holding them still for an easier dart throw.
I think we've got some Xenothreat members in the chat objecting to being called sadists =D It's not that difficult to see the difference between consensual PvP and just messing up people's day because you can.
Lol you will never see the day where CIG makes the game “consensual pvp only”. That is a ridiculous notion that would make the game zero-risk. You’re just salty about being worse at the game than other people, or from past experiences of being outplayed. If you don’t like risky player interactions, you literally just don’t like the multiplayer element, you want a coop game. If that’s the case, go play NMS or ED and stop making ridiculous proposals for CIG to water their sim down to the lowest common denominator so that it’s a safe, risk-free sandbox.
Rough and Ready reputation hits might be too punitive since they are the only station guys. Unless there are other stations to use, and some way to work off the negative reputation. Having Distribution Center sized bases for all of the factions to loot would be fun. Citizens for Prosperity, Head Hunters, and Xenothreat should all have such a presence... something that is well defended that you can't just wipe clean with a bomb or a strafing run.
I disagree that it's too punitive. Not only does Xenothreat technically own Ruin Station, but people with Citizens for Prosperity would be welcome with open arms at the jump point station. You could also balance it by providing advantages in other regards. For example, Headhunters may have no space stations to their name, but their faction vendors sell exceptionally good gear you can't find elsewhere. Xenothreat might have the fewest outposts on planets and only have Ruin Station, but all of their outposts are very heavily fortified providing true safety and Ruin Station offers an unrivaled selection of weapons, armor, consumables, and cargo. Citizens for Prosperity may only be welcome at the jump point station and don't have a lot of presence in the system but they offer the highest cash rewards for their contracts by far. Etc, Etc.
Ray, wow, first time ever I must disagree with your assessment. You spoke like a true miner "CIG give them arenas to fight and protect me, I want that money!" Two big misjudgements: 1. You must have been hiding well if you have been attracted just once. Pyro is all about "shoot first ask questions later" . If you don't like it, go back to Stanton. 2. Rough & Ready are focused on providing services that's how they make money! They are not lawful, they don't care what you do outside of their facilities, as long you keep good within it. Why would they jeopardize their sweet spot by siding with one fraction? Not to mention that they're providing spawning locations, so what's your desire? If I dare to kill players I spawn in someone's little cell? Totally illogical.
The downfall of Star Citizen will be the aggressive Cocomelon of Duty PvPers who have no brain capacity beyond shooting guys in games to see if they can stroke their invisible ego. Nobody knows or cares about them in reality but they've built this fantasy that their skills in PvP are what's providing them gratification in life when all they're doing is playing in the mud. It's an ego game and a psychological one that exists in every game but the bottom line is, once they run out of PvP with each other, they'll aggressively target the PvEers to kill their sense of joy which'll in turn hurt the playerbase as a whole. These guys destroy games and their communities, then they pretend they're not the cause. Without punishment for PvP, the game will suffer, period. It needs to be more aggressively punished but there needs to equally be more reward for partaking in the PvP than just killing some random shmo. Higher risk, higher reward gameplay that incentivizes the PvPer to think about their actions the same way PvEers have to decide on their own approaches to Pyro.
For those miners so inclined, be receptive to hiring a scout. The scout looks for good rock clusters, delivers sustenance, acts as a beacon if you need to return, and acts as security if an unfriendly arrives to check you out. The scout can engage while you make a safe exit.
There really is no such thing as an anarchic location. If there's a space with people, there are those that will use the power they can impose to set rules. The only thing you really have, is the amount and ability to use power to enforce those rules. I can see one of the systems in the future being used to have a "low power structure" environment that satisfies those that want the opportunity for open ganking. But let CIG figure out how to get a lawless system working well first (which would include mafia style enforcement) and then implement the low power structure star system later. That final system type will ultimately be where the powerful organizations duke it out for being in control and being the power that enforces their rules...
What you are looking for is EVE.. even down to the very description you're using. However SC is not solely player run and controlled. It is NPC governed with player participation. SC is not EvE. NPC's are the final level law enforcement mechanism in SC with varying degrees even with players ignore them. Pyro is just devoid of the UEE government law structure. Just like you see in reality when you don't have a government funded policing system. It's an area comprised of outlaws.. That does not mean there will be 'zero' consequences for heinous acts. The inhabitants of Pyro are not to tolerate serial killing or wanton pirating (even pirates develop loose laws) with no rules, because its a danger to their overall well being and livelihoods'. You're never going to have just player law or no law because NPC's are in this game and even if the players don't want to act civil and understand consequence, they do. Ironic isn't it?
pyro stations social areas are armistace zones so its a safezone so theres never gonna be hab camping or firefights at the shops. the towns on planets and asteroid bases are freefire areas. so its mostly like stanton without the safezones at certain planetside outposts. also rough and ready negative rep would be able to be paid away, so seal clubbing that gave them a rep hit would essentially be a fine, like in stanton. also prisons make less sense. pyro is supposed to be like the mess el salvador was during its civil war or liberia during its civil war. you can always pay your way out of any bad rep. the sadism/masochism analogy is intentionally inflammatory and presupposeses a moral judgemnt on how one plays the game with the mechanics and incentives provided by the game. you're also imply all pve grinding and non-pvp is masochism. pvp/pve is just fun vs. boredom. when the pve doesnt provide the fun player interaction does. some of that is pvp but pvp also requires player social interaction and cooperation. even for solo players, that social interaction is necessary. if youre not engaging with other players; cooperatively or antagonistically in an online game you're role-playing an npc. or just a masochist using your parlance though cig has zero useful ingame social tools.
Xenothreat not having a base in Pyro is a big lore breaking mistake. CIG sucks at lore. Is anyone seriously invested in the "lore" of this game? - Lore is changed on a whim after existing for years. Example: Pyro suddenly being what it is instead of the advertised barren\depleted system. - Lore must account for gameplay logic despite nonsense. Example: how to explain players (private citizens) DIY "crafting" better ships than the ingame dedicated manufacturers.
the problem with PvP in SC is there are no reproductions for indiscriminate killing.... even in the Wild West there was honor and sone kind of unsaid rule of law..
Its all about reputation. If you are in a gangs outpost or space station, causing trouble there should make you lose reputation with them and gain reputation with their enemies. For example, if I'm in a Citizens for Prosperity colony and I am friendly with Citizens for Prosperity, I shouldn't be able to shoot another player (or NPC for that matter) who is friendly with Citizens for Prosperity inside the area of the outpost without losing a lot of reputation and making CfP hostile for a while. This would strongly discourage people from killing everything that moves on sight. People should feel safe(r) when in an outpost or space station owned by the gang of their choice. If you attack EVERYONE EVERYWHERE, than you'll lose reputation with EVERYONE EVERYWHERE to the point where there is pretty much no outpost or space station you can go that wont shoot you on sight.
The game is the dartboard my man, we're not throwing darts at anyone. Beating you at a game of darts is the same as beating you in combat in SC. in order for your darts analogy to work players of the game would have to be harming each other outside of the gamerules/game world. Merry Christmas.
@@nixlad I take it youre one of the toxic sadistic players? the analogy is spot on, CiG never meant SC to be a murderfest and they have said that is why they want reputation. People who only see SC one dimensionally, Must kill, Must kill, show a lack of depth that this game is built for.
@@XxTavoRxX To clarify my position, I think Pyro should be a murderfest. I do not think stanton should be. To suggest Pyro be something else, would be to make Pyro High Security, which is preposterous.
trying to be responsible for our fun, but others get off on making others gameplay less enjoyable. How big and tough are you to play in a group looking for solo players in non combat ships to murder for fun? you want pvp or do you just want easy kills to get off on? sadistic is a very apt word for those kind of players
you entirely missed his point. PvPers say they want to compete against other players because AI is too easy and boring, but then they lose interest in other equal players, so now they look for easier targets to satisfy their urges. his point is that people who arent interested in pvp are not a challenge, are not interested, and want to play other loops and those pvpers are sadistically getting enjoyment out of ruining the other players gameplay. and I am sure you will now say, "well dont play it then, its supposed to be all PVP" Frankly that would be wrong, and a far larger percentage of players are looking at SC as something other than Call of Duty 2954. CiG says "play the game your way" and pvpers say" NO, you have to play our way"
@@XxTavoRxX "you can only attack me if i agree to it" classic carebear narcissism. yall have ruined almost every game when the devs listen to you people. you people are freaks and cry bullies
The darts analogy is masterclass.
Is it? Seems wildly off-base to me. SC has always been openly advertised as having open PvP.
@@CitizenScott and it should stay that way.
In being totally wrong.
@@1aatlasNah, it's quite accurate.
@@CitizenScott you completely missed his analogy, and yes, SC was supposed to have player interaction, but all the sadistic pvpers see is murder and nothing else. His analogy is spot on, there are pvpers, and then there are those who just take delight in ruining other peoples play. and you can say thats not true but we all see the chat where the state outright that they love to upset others and its what makes the game fun for them
A huge Xenothreat base, something that you could attack in a combined arms mission, would be a *_*lot*_* of fun
Not to mention a fantastic test bed for base attack gameplay tuning.
They should have it so that wearing Xenothreat armor in other areas makes you hostile/enemy, so it is more than just reputation, but how you dress that matters to the other gangs.
CIG needs to hire Ray as a consultant. Love all the ideas presented, would be nice if wearing Xeno threat armor would lower the Xeno threat npcs detection threshold regardless of rep to allow for sneaky stealth heists
ive always said that games should have that, if you are in a pirate outfit, you should agro law, if you are in an enemy outfit, you should agro other gangs, and as you said, if you wear certain outfits, you should blend in a little
I like the Xenothreat idea. Also agree 100% with your definitions of PvE, PvP, and the other form of "playing" the game.
Excellent suggestions, and funnily enough I was rewatching some old SCL videos because some people on spectrum/reddit are convinced CIG have no plans to address PvPvE rep, and years ago CIG actually did address this. Only, Dave Haddick used the Overlords gang as an example, noting that getting your rep too high with them will result in almost every other gang in Pyro having max hostility towards you, so that will be interesting. But I like the added minutiae that you mentioned about the VIP status via max rep. I think that would make for a great counter-balance, as it would definitely make people think twice about shooting first.
Some old SCL video 😂 = worthless
@@heru_ur6017 Nah, they reiterated their plans for the exact same rep system at CitizenCon this year.
Great video! Love the Rough and Ready reputation idea. My sadistic PvP analogy was old men in a park playing chess on a park bench getting tackled by teenagers playing football nearby and told to train in the basics of football to learn how to avoid being tackled. Your darts analogy is much simpler and easier to see the issue of forcing others to play your game style.
Accurate analogy would be old men knowingly setting up their board in the middle of a football game then complaining about getting bumped into.
@@CitizenScott Spoken like a true narcissistic sadist. I specifically said park bench, not the 50 yard line. Difference is I freely concede that playing in bounds of the football field means you accept the possibility of getting hit. Your "accurate analogy" conveys that you think nothing is out of bounds and that it is always appropriate to force someone else to play with you in your preferred game-style because the entire game is an open PvP free-for-all for your enjoyment above any other's. When you choose to gank someone who is otherwise minding their own bushiness and has little of value to pirate - instead of finding someone else who legitimately likes to fight or has squired valuable material - then you are a sadist.
@@tlprescott1 "Nothing is out of bounds," is exactly right. Not according to me though. According to CIG...
"Open PvP without artificial limitations."
"Danger everywhere... with consequences."
"So you can turn [the PvP chance] down, but you can never turn it all the way off."
"There will be factions that really like it when you go around killing players..."
"We'll never 100% guarantee you're 100% safe, and frankly we don't want to do that."
CIGs words, not mine. Guess the devs are "true sadistic narcissists" huh? Not only do they make the game, but they openly engage in exactly the gameplay you think gives you the moral superiority to judge total strangers from a position of objective ignorance. Either way, sounds like you didn't know what game you backed.
@@CitizenScott Cherry picking only the select quotes that seem to support your view is not "proof" and makes you look foolish. I support your choice to act like an IRL criminal. We just need the law and order system to allow a jury of your peers to permanently ban your account like an IRL death sentence. In spite of what CIG marketing says, they know where their funding comes from. Faced with losing funding from all those who want to be left alone, they will throw gankers under the bus in a heartbeat. Be careful what you advocate for ("sounds like you didn't know what game you backed") because gankers can not fund the game alone and I have no doubt that CIG will follow the money.
I love this channel - Love the bar story :)
All excellent points of view about the gangs (including Xenothreat).
There's a ton they could be doing with Xenothreat, or other similar "bad factions". But you're right, griefing is sadistic. There's reasons other MMOs made early level zones PVP free, so people just casually playing don't get the experience ruined.
I think your darts analogy is on point. PvP may be part of the game but that does not mean that it is no consequence. Xenothreat would be good to have somewhere in Pyro.
I like this PvP rationale. Well done
Can't wait to actually choose sides on Xeno Threat missions.
Can't say I completely agree with your thoughts on the law system but would be very interesting and it could work.
Thanks for the video
I always enjoyed the XenoThreat mission - when it worked. Now with server meshing online and XenoThreat's main base in the now-accessible Pyro system, CIG has a real opportunity to run the XT mission again with improved performance and also to expand the story to include a raid into Pyro.
Good ideas, I like the faction ideas for high reputation in one faction, and include xenothreat too.
I agree with 100% of these ideas. It seems this is the direction cig is going.. lets hope they can get there.
The "Darts analogy" - brilliant and TRUE...
That xenothread base idea sounds really good tbh!
I often say that you put into words what i was already thinking (in a good way - its like having a half-formed opinion that is sitting in my mind presented to me in a more fully formed manner). But i have to say this video is about the best set of opinions on how the game could/should be developed. In this case, those half-baked ideas in my head weren't even out of some larval form before you came in and massaged my brainwaves with such wisdom. seriously impressed and feeling very hopeful that CIG could do amazing things if they just copy everything you said, or maybe even something truly phenomenal if they take the ideas and add their own
I really like the reputation idea for helping take care of griefing! I'm a bunker enthusiast so getting a Xenothreat base to raid would be ideal for my play style. Keep the ideas coming!
New things to do with Xenothreat in Pyro makes sense and sounds fun
Great video! A Xenothreat base would be a handy location for fun gameplay.
Interesting idea for Xenothreat, could put a lot of content in a 'base' like that.
I'm wouldn't be surprised if they reveal a huge Xenothreat base or isolated space station during a community event. I think hVing it ve an isolated space station base sinilar to what could ve build with base building would be s great test for those systems on calibrating how hard it is to lsy siege to a soace station and taking it over. Plus it would explain how Xenothreat can maintain a fleet containnng Idris.
5:36 Jumptown
Yes Yes Yes
In addition to bringing raw materials to location for conversion with this suggestion
Also add some kind of power plant or maybe something that needs the fuse/relay items to healthy and operable for the facility to be operational. If an A2 comes in and blasts the place, these things would need replacement. Maybe a turret or two in the surrounding area with the same fuse/relay component stuff that allows for them to be operated by players. This is just a half baked idea, without the balance details, but this would be fun
I don't know where you have been in Pyro, but I dealt with the Torp Gank at the gate and on bloom for days. Now Pyro is nearly empty because of it. So while you may not be having problems, many have and we are sick of it.
Add me man I am an anti ganker, I wreck em. CrimeStat007
Frankly, I've been at obituary and Bloom mostly. Maybe I've been lucky or maybe wasting a torpedo on a Prosprctor is just...lame.
That's completely false. Lots of people have been going through the gate just fine; and there are turrets guarding the areas surrounding the station and the gate. Also, exiting the gate is random, so it's impossible to gank at the gate. This kind of troll only works for people who don't play the game.
@@Billy-bc8pk agree. gate camping is hard. Bloom POIS can be horrific like Shepards Rest but otherwise, had very few deaths in pyro to ganks.
Shepherd's rest is the new Brio's. lol
I'd like to see Xenothreat be a significant presence with high level mission sets based around their activities. It's the perfect Org target with high payoff missions and loot.
They definitely should have a Xenothreat area for missions and such. We’ll see what the future brings.
Xenothreat, and I like the idea for XT bases and space assets to battle more regularly.
I know most of what you are suggesting is coming in some form or other eventually, but I definitely agree that Xenothreat should have either a moon or a special space station they constructed themselves that’s not on any maps (you get the coordinates or something from high rep with a Pyro faction and finishing a big mission chain for example) and the more they are able to build up the more they start raiding other factions and you start having random encounters with them and stuff.
As for the combined arms PvP areas, that is what the asteroid bases are for. Ideally you enter one of those with a couple squads of people and you have a small wing of fighters stationed outside to fend off anyone from making station ingress. The people already there are expecting PvP and are prepared for it and anyone going there should be expecting PvP, so there is t really the “issue” of forcing PvP on anyone who doesn’t want it.
I gotta say. These ideas are good. I even like the Xenothreat idea.
It could be a big raid style planet with xenothreat, like CZ where you have to do objective on different locations to make the main base vulnerable
I have had a blast picking on Xenothreat with my org mates, working on CFP rep all while sending zealots to the compost bin has been exhilarating. But yes, they most certainly should have a VERY well protected military stronghold on terminus, in orbit or on a lunar body. People with my rep standing with them wouldn’t be able to get close without a small fleet for lateral support.
Merry Christmas Ray! 🎄🎁🎅
🎯
These kinds of players dont want PvP they want Player v Victim
Or more accurately Predator v Prey.
Get ganked scrub
There’s always winners and losers.
@@RaysGuide this right here, and they even say as much in the forums and the chat. They believe that if you dont train as much as them and "git gud" you deserve to be killed
I’d love to see more Xenothreat content in Pyro. Including smuggling out data on their plans, etc.
Tangling with a Xenothreat Idris sounds like fun.
Those suggestions sound great. We definitely need actual consequences for more deviant gameplay especially for the griefers that crash those big PvE events like phase 3 of Save Stanton, or the Security Post Kareah and Idris missions in Overdrive.
The whole part about "they'll ignore me because i'm naked" and the "hangar spawns prevent hab camping" is null and void, because the stations are armistice zones outside of the contested zones. In the Pyro tech preview, it was one station and it was a bug with armistice that caused the hab camping/fights in the station.
Just goes to show he has no idea what he's talking about since neither of those mechanics are a thing the way he implies they are. Hangar spawning was disabled about a day after launch of 4.0 and like you said there's been full-on armistice zones on stations in 4.0 since evocati ptu.
Not even the darts analogy makes any sense because Pyro has been tagged as a very dangerous place to be in since its concept. Just being in Pyro is taking an informed risk, not like sitting in a bar where generally you can expect to be safe and left alone lmfao.
As always well presented, I think a lot of gankers gave up after while. Pyro is a lot bigger than Stanton and you avoid them if you can get clear of the stations and have a bed log out ship
Nodding along in agreement with everything you said. It's "lawless", not "anarchy". No doubt some people want a free for all without consequences and say that "carebears" should go back to Stanton, but I like that reputation system idea a lot. It's needed, and it creates more gameplay. Not to mention consequences.
Free for all without consequences is what the contested zones are and clearly I am all for more of them.
You literally are a carebear though
I'm curious what CIG will be doing with Xenothreat in the future, there's a good amount of potential there.
Don't forget that players are no less targets for pirates than AI. As long as the pirate is looting the ship or stealing the cargo, assuming they surrender and don't get completely destroyed, that is not ganking it is legitimate piracy.
Responding to someone active seeking to harm you is self-defense. Responding to someone breaking the law is enforcement.
no one has a problem with legfitimate piracy , its the murder hobo. and psychopathic killing for the sake of it that just destroys everyones fun in the game
Great video, I agree on everything but one thing, I've encountered nothing but the sadistic players (I'm not afraid to call them that) in Pyro at every POI or mission destination. Making it impossible to even build rep with the local gangs, the whole notion that Pyro is going to be nothing but a griefers hellhole is very much true
I think the mission destinations are the worst since the missions often fail so you have a bunch of bored frustrated players with nothing to do.
Xeno Threat feel familiar from the Xenos in Freelancer, that made me wonder if the ‘prosperity mob’ are Zoner analogues, guess I’d better get to Pyro and find out :)
XenoThreat having a huge physical area would allow for an event like the Xenothreat events that happen periodically - Always be on, in some fashion.
I really like how succinct you are in your explanation of things, I still wont be going to pyro, as I am sure many others wont as well, and eventually it will be just a few daring industrial players and lonely pvpers, the sadistic players will have made it just not worth it to be there even though from the videos it looks like a very pretty place to explore. I do agree with your take on the rep though and they definitely need to make that a priority, but it should include rep from stanton as well. the big thing I want to see is that people with CS all the time, that the rep stay with them like the stain it would be in real life, they might be cool in pyro, but they wouldnt be welcome in stanton. they always talk about high risk high reward, hows that for real risk, it shouldnt just be the lawful players who have risk. Xenothreat bases? its either or to me, but it makes sense if they are such a threat that they would need some place to gather.
Secret Xenothreat base is secret! If the Empire could hide a deathstar, so can xenothreat.
Xenothreat should have a quite substantial force in Pyro. But the majority of it should be a system outside of Pyro. Maybe one yet to be discovered by uncharted jumppoints.
I love the lore-building that has gone into Pyro. I'll be supporting the Citizens for Prosperity... with reservations... since their headquarters are in Lorville and I don't trust anyone based there. Even Eckhart will try and get you to murder law-abiding competitors.
The lore that went into Rough & Ready as the gang controlling most of the stations is a good way to encourage a certain amount of civility.
I'm really curious to see how XenoThreat controlling their own station is going to work out and how much of the planet below they'll eventually control. It's got to be significant if they can keep sending in capital ships to assault Stanton.
The armour discussion on SCL recently reminded me of the Overlords. They're established enough in the lore to have their own dedicated Subscriber Flair. Are they going to be a fully independent gang with their own base? Will they be allies with another gang? Frontier Fighters? XenoThreat?
I am really starting to wonder if CIG has what it takes to put these tech systems together in a fun way. A bunch o devs can make tech, but it takes a true artist to make a game fun.
Pyro is awesome, and there are PVE missions there too.
Xenothreat. I'm looking forward to smackign them around, but I want to build up some cash first.
state of pyro is you sit an hour in the loading screen getting 30ks after a queue of 290, try to farm money in stanton but the hangars on NB don't open and you have to queue on stations when there isn't even anyone around, but when there is they will block you from flying into your hangar, but even if not the doors will close after a few seconds while you're still on your way to it.
only to then eventually arrive prepared in pyro to fly around a planet and get a black screen.
I agree. Nine tails should have something similar to Xenothreat. Maybe taking over Grim hex. And then u wound need good rep with them to land there
For me I would love for VOIP to work correctly then I can feel like when I decide to pirate (which I don't do often) I can at least interact and give people a chance and not shoot them. Did one yesterday and took a ship with cargo which was carbon about 30-50 SCU worth so though ah that might give a decent pay out. Got 91 UEC...
Your darts analogy implies that people getting pulled into PvP unwillingly are not playing Star Citizen (ie. darts)
Not really my point was that just because some PvP works anything cruel that you can dream up must be OK too.
the problem with pvp is that its the only game loop that can be forced on other players. I cant make you mine, I cant make you salvage, I cant make you haul cargo or any other game loop, only pvpers can force people to play their game loop. PvPers say they want to challenge themselves, then they go in big groups and look for solo players in industrial ships. oooh big challenge. Rays points were spot on, CiG needs to make sure the players who are only interested in murdering others have some place to keep them busy out of the way of players who actually are interested in other content
@XxTavoRxX but I wouldn't want it to be as absolute as a separate server. Having to keep my eye out and having to maybe have to make a run for it or maybe having a run end in tragedy adds a little spice to things.
@@RaysGuide fair enough, I use the separate server analogy to make a point, you never proposed it, I just say that many other MMOs came to the conclusion that it was necessary. I am not opposed to PvP, hell, I play CoD and many others, I just think that there needs to be consequences for it in an open world sim, if there are severe consequences for industrial players in pyro, there should be severe consequences for unlawful players in Stanton, and that rep should follow them
@@RaysGuide cruel? dog you need to grow up or go play euro truck simulator or summin
Yeah, I was really surprised that they made Xenothreat be such a big deal coming from Pyro, but they don't have a base or any other real presence.
I'm looking forward to playing darts against Xenothreat.
You are right about XenoThreat
Sometimes it’s dogfighting - sometimes it’s sadism - watching cutters get wasted by mark ii hornet - it isn’t really that hard to define
Sadly with the latest 4.0 hotfix, CIG disabled spawning in your hangar and put you back in the HABs again. I suspect its because to many people coming in at one time and the game runs out of starport doors to map to instanced hangars. And I agree that XenoThreat is missing from Pyro. They were supposed to be launching attacks from Pyro, so why arent we seeing them here?
"It was discovered that the very recent change to allow players to spawn directly in the Hangar has had some unintended reduction in overall performance of the backend infrastructure. Spawning directly in the Hangar has been temporarily disabled so we can monitor the environment without this added load and ensure that this is the only cause of this issue."
@@LucidStrike Yeah, i saw that but its really a non-statement. But when you look at places like Area 18 that only has 20 hangars and many players have large or XL hangars from ships, if even 10 such people all log in and are at their hangar getting setup to play at the same time, there wont be enough starport locations of that size to map them all too. The system has to pre-allocate those resources up front as you log in instead of piecemeal as people get to the star ports...
You make a good point; whatever happened to Xenothreat?
We should also be able to see other players in ours and opposing factions. It would be Incentive not to fire on everyone you see.
True, that is a feature of the social improvements that I very much anticipate
I haven't been to Pryo yet. But it feels like there is a lot more players hunting players in Stanton. I kinda assuming they are just trying to hunt the new/easy players to kill with no long term rep consequences this will keep happening.
Would XenoThreat really hold a plot of land though? This idea runs parallel to thoughts I've had about GrimHEX effectively being a pirate base inside the jurisdiction of Crusader - when something is annoying and accessible, _and_ is overpowered by those who find it annoying and accessible, then it's going to get cleared out. XenoThreat might be hiding outside of UEE jurisdiction, but if the UEE knows exactly where they are they should by rights be on the losing side of a war.
I love the darts analogy. 😂
Well, you have two questions. First, whether Xeno would hold a plot of land. Not out of desire but out of necessity Ships need places to be resupplied and maintained. Troops need places to train and muster, etc. The second question is if so why hasn't the fleet just come in and cleared them out? First, that was one reason why I thought the base would be underground. The second is that Xeno undoubtedly has observers at the jump point and would see any fleet coming through, giving Xeno time enough to execute their undoubtedly well rehearsed drill to evacuate and disperse.
@@RaysGuideTo build on both ideas, you could have Xenothreat cycle through several abandoned docks on Terminus as kind of a larger "combat" Jumptown, and in line with your combined arms for PvPvE. Make it so the other factions are going in to not only disrupt Xenothreat, but also steal components and supplies Xenothreat is stockpiling (Think military grade components, weapons, etc).
"Pyro Amalgamated left behind several drydocks in the outer system, which were originally used to repair and refit their mining fleet. These abandoned docks are nominally controlled by Xenothreat, however in order to keep rival gangs (and UEE Intelligence) guessing, they rarely spend considerable time at any one dock, as this presents a target too hard to ignore."
@@RaysGuide I feel like they would just maintain a mobile existence. A fleet in the middle of nowhere. Any time they have a need to set up camp, detachments could occupy whatever stations they feel are convenient in the moment - they'd have the manpower - and after a short stay they'd leave again to rejoin the fleet. If they have no identifiable base, but plenty of sympathisers (or temporarily forced labour) then the UEE would be chasing ghosts.
I'm thinking Star Wars Rebel Alliance type thoughts here - Hoth didn't work out too well, but a fleet in deep space remained elusive. 🤔 Always on the move and never hanging around for long.
Xenothreat really should have a standing in Pyro, how else could you go toe and toe in Stanton with the UEE?
Excellent example with the darts....lol
Ray you are 100 % right. Darts and all. I hope someone listen.
Wonder whether we will be able to ally with or join Xenothreat?
When did CIG remove the AZ in the Pyro stations shops?
Weren't distribution centres also supposed to be the group PvP challenge areas but they got pulled from 4.0 because of the terrible performance in testing? Xenothreat distribution centres with air defenses could work (I wonder if it would be possible to earn reputation with XT by defending them?). Giving PvP'ers genuine opportunities to face off against each other will work for the majority, but there are always those who are not really looking for a 'fair' fight... the sociopathic bullies who want to ruin your day just for the lulz.
KOS players hiding behind the PVP moniker is my issue, KOS = toxicity.
If thats toxicity to you, maybe you should play something that won’t hurt your feelings with intended gameplay in a lawless system.
@@nixlad My statement seems to have hurt your feelings. No need to be toxic fren.
@@truth3r Not an argument :^)
@@nixlad sure it is, as much as your " go play something that wont hurt your feelings" considering the whole concept of "possibility of PVP" doesnt mean murder everyone with no consequence hurt your feelings. CiG always said there would be consequence, thats why the rep.
@@XxTavoRxX CIG said there would always be consequence, not an opt-in "voluntary" pvp system like Fallout 76 that you all seem to want.
Xenothreat!
I like the darts analogy, but I think the fight club movie summarises it in a grittier way. The "get in a fight with someone" task is what it feels like in the game at the moment.
Combined arms has been dead since the ballista nerf. Until we get proper aa back, there is little incentive to use fps when ships do the job
Kicking xenothreat would be fun.
You can rationalize “non-consensual pvp” being bad, whichever way you want. CIG is never going to bend the knee to you lot who want chivalrous, voluntary PVP as every PVP encounter. It’s a ridiculous idea anyway, as there’d be no danger anywhere. Call it sadistic or evil all you want, but it’s never going to stop. You can complain and ruminate on “what CIG should do” to combat you being styled on all day and night, it’a not gonna make the “sadists” go away. You are literally just salty and want even more consequences so Pyro becomes more peaceful and space trucker dad friendly, when it was always intended for it to be a dangerous, lawless system of crime and risk.
personally I dont care what happens, I dont intend on ever going to Pyro. But every other major MMO has realized, ignoring the larger demagraphic doesnt work and they have created PvP and Coop PVE modes for that reason. O, and he never said eliminate PVP, he gave good solutions to ensure PVPers have the content they enjoy thereby allowing others to have the playstyle they enjoy. Do you personally look for easy targets not in combat ships so that you can mess their gameplay?
@@XxTavoRxX Anti-PVPers are definitely not the "majority" demographic. The solutions he provided are turning Pyro into a high security system, contradicting the entire point of Pyro.
As for my playstyle? If I'm in Pyro, and see an opportunity to gain cargo or money from a player, I will give them an ultimatum to give me their cargo or I will take it from them. This is intended gameplay. In Stanton I'm pretty peaceful unless attacked. If this is somehow offensive to you, or you consider people who play like this to be "psychopaths" like the rest of this comment section, I think that is a ridiculous assessment.
@@nixladfirst, I am not anti PvP and I certainly didn't see that Ray is either, he seems to want to find ways to incorporate all forms of playstyle.
Second, Pyro is Pyro, I am not ever going there so, if people play, as you say, in the intended way will have no effect on me. As I have stated, I don't like the toxic players who want to drag non PvP players into combat and then say it's because they want a challenge when that's clearly BS.
I have stated in other parts of this comment section my opinion of laws and limitations and the necessity therein for the greater player base to be able to play all the game loops.
Yes, I believe that polls Show that non PvP, not anti, but players who want to play non PvP loops are a greater portion of the player base.
Lastly, I don't care if a game allows it, if a player takes joy in ruining other people's gameplay they are sadistic, by definition. Players that only want to PvP are not, those that play a sadistic gameplay style are, even if that style is allowed. Ergo why entities are despised by society at large, even in game, groups like xenothreat.
Your personal experience of not being found in game and shot is made possible by the lack of the long range scanning feature not being in the game yet. My fleet is made to do that on day 1 of that features release. I will expect payment to divert my eye's. The rep system is a content generation reward system. It's not a locked game play rule enforcement system like a PvP game's matchmaker with game mode selection. Players are allowed to do whatever they want with who ever they want at any others disadvantage whether their new or not in any system not just Pyro. SC's prison system is also content meant to provide breathing room from forced PvP situations that with the escape feature allows circumventing the process for a faster return to what the player was doing. I'll shoot naked players because that means they can't pick up loot or scout for another team. It will also count towards killing that players character for death of a space man in the future.
What SC needs in the future is a telegraphed role play system that locks gameplay rules by player choices into how they'll deal with each other like in a single players three choice dialogue system and a customizable mission/quest system that mirrors the benefits of matchmade game modes in a pvp arena shooter game capable of keeping team sizes the same vs each other. Fair gameplay loops can be fostered this way in a MMO environment void of most seal clubbing by zergging and it allows anyone to join in without the mistrust barrier for entry into groups that drives people away from playing a game.
"What SC needs in the future is a telegraphed role play system that locks gameplay rules by player choices into how they'll deal with each other like in a single players three choice dialogue system and a customizable mission/quest system that mirrors the benefits of matchmade game modes in a pvp arena shooter game capable of keeping team sizes the same vs each other. Fair gameplay loops can be fostered this way in a MMO environment void of most seal clubbing by zergging and it allows anyone to join in without the mistrust barrier for entry into groups that drives people away from playing a game."
Can you give an example of this? I am not familiar with what you mean and I am curious to understand
If they create a space and combined area would they shove some sort of resource that Crafters / industrialists and therefore traders need to make high level stuff? I’m fine with PVP and get involved in it but I don’t really want it to control my industrial gameplay to a point that I have no choice but to PVP. In other words, back in that darts game, the sadist gets to throw darts wherever they feel they hurt the mostwith no consequence and the targets have to stand still with the guy controlling the game holding them still for an easier dart throw.
I think we've got some Xenothreat members in the chat objecting to being called sadists =D
It's not that difficult to see the difference between consensual PvP and just messing up people's day because you can.
Lol you will never see the day where CIG makes the game “consensual pvp only”. That is a ridiculous notion that would make the game zero-risk. You’re just salty about being worse at the game than other people, or from past experiences of being outplayed. If you don’t like risky player interactions, you literally just don’t like the multiplayer element, you want a coop game. If that’s the case, go play NMS or ED and stop making ridiculous proposals for CIG to water their sim down to the lowest common denominator so that it’s a safe, risk-free sandbox.
I've learned my lesson, CIG Can't be trusted. I refuse to log in until 4.20.
Well they said up front that the 4.0 Preview was lacking so why should that be a cause for lack of trust. The half baked release was half baked 😋
Rough and Ready reputation hits might be too punitive since they are the only station guys. Unless there are other stations to use, and some way to work off the negative reputation.
Having Distribution Center sized bases for all of the factions to loot would be fun. Citizens for Prosperity, Head Hunters, and Xenothreat should all have such a presence... something that is well defended that you can't just wipe clean with a bomb or a strafing run.
I disagree that it's too punitive. Not only does Xenothreat technically own Ruin Station, but people with Citizens for Prosperity would be welcome with open arms at the jump point station.
You could also balance it by providing advantages in other regards. For example, Headhunters may have no space stations to their name, but their faction vendors sell exceptionally good gear you can't find elsewhere. Xenothreat might have the fewest outposts on planets and only have Ruin Station, but all of their outposts are very heavily fortified providing true safety and Ruin Station offers an unrivaled selection of weapons, armor, consumables, and cargo. Citizens for Prosperity may only be welcome at the jump point station and don't have a lot of presence in the system but they offer the highest cash rewards for their contracts by far. Etc, Etc.
That was always the intent you could end up with nowhere to re-supply, your actions are supposed to have consequences, up to really bad ones
Sing it, Ray! Good ideas.
if they just fix that people cant Camp Pyro gate way in an out we are fine
Ray, wow, first time ever I must disagree with your assessment. You spoke like a true miner "CIG give them arenas to fight and protect me, I want that money!"
Two big misjudgements:
1. You must have been hiding well if you have been attracted just once. Pyro is all about "shoot first ask questions later" . If you don't like it, go back to Stanton.
2. Rough & Ready are focused on providing services that's how they make money! They are not lawful, they don't care what you do outside of their facilities, as long you keep good within it. Why would they jeopardize their sweet spot by siding with one fraction?
Not to mention that they're providing spawning locations, so what's your desire? If I dare to kill players I spawn in someone's little cell?
Totally illogical.
The downfall of Star Citizen will be the aggressive Cocomelon of Duty PvPers who have no brain capacity beyond shooting guys in games to see if they can stroke their invisible ego. Nobody knows or cares about them in reality but they've built this fantasy that their skills in PvP are what's providing them gratification in life when all they're doing is playing in the mud. It's an ego game and a psychological one that exists in every game but the bottom line is, once they run out of PvP with each other, they'll aggressively target the PvEers to kill their sense of joy which'll in turn hurt the playerbase as a whole.
These guys destroy games and their communities, then they pretend they're not the cause. Without punishment for PvP, the game will suffer, period. It needs to be more aggressively punished but there needs to equally be more reward for partaking in the PvP than just killing some random shmo. Higher risk, higher reward gameplay that incentivizes the PvPer to think about their actions the same way PvEers have to decide on their own approaches to Pyro.
For those miners so inclined, be receptive to hiring a scout. The scout looks for good rock clusters, delivers sustenance, acts as a beacon if you need to return, and acts as security if an unfriendly arrives to check you out. The scout can engage while you make a safe exit.
Rough and ready vips are a terrible idea. Since there's no alternative stations to use.
I disagree with your solution at the end. You're basically making Pyro High sec with a different name.
There really is no such thing as an anarchic location. If there's a space with people, there are those that will use the power they can impose to set rules. The only thing you really have, is the amount and ability to use power to enforce those rules. I can see one of the systems in the future being used to have a "low power structure" environment that satisfies those that want the opportunity for open ganking. But let CIG figure out how to get a lawless system working well first (which would include mafia style enforcement) and then implement the low power structure star system later. That final system type will ultimately be where the powerful organizations duke it out for being in control and being the power that enforces their rules...
What you are looking for is EVE.. even down to the very description you're using. However SC is not solely player run and controlled. It is NPC governed with player participation. SC is not EvE. NPC's are the final level law enforcement mechanism in SC with varying degrees even with players ignore them. Pyro is just devoid of the UEE government law structure. Just like you see in reality when you don't have a government funded policing system. It's an area comprised of outlaws..
That does not mean there will be 'zero' consequences for heinous acts. The inhabitants of Pyro are not to tolerate serial killing or wanton pirating (even pirates develop loose laws) with no rules, because its a danger to their overall well being and livelihoods'. You're never going to have just player law or no law because NPC's are in this game and even if the players don't want to act civil and understand consequence, they do. Ironic isn't it?
pyro stations social areas are armistace zones so its a safezone so theres never gonna be hab camping or firefights at the shops. the towns on planets and asteroid bases are freefire areas. so its mostly like stanton without the safezones at certain planetside outposts.
also rough and ready negative rep would be able to be paid away, so seal clubbing that gave them a rep hit would essentially be a fine, like in stanton. also prisons make less sense. pyro is supposed to be like the mess el salvador was during its civil war or liberia during its civil war. you can always pay your way out of any bad rep.
the sadism/masochism analogy is intentionally inflammatory and presupposeses a moral judgemnt on how one plays the game with the mechanics and incentives provided by the game. you're also imply all pve grinding and non-pvp is masochism.
pvp/pve is just fun vs. boredom. when the pve doesnt provide the fun player interaction does. some of that is pvp but pvp also requires player social interaction and cooperation. even for solo players, that social interaction is necessary. if youre not engaging with other players; cooperatively or antagonistically in an online game you're role-playing an npc. or just a masochist using your parlance
though cig has zero useful ingame social tools.
I thought allying with Xenothreat would be an option. Is CIG going to keep them as antagonist only?
Xenothreat
Xenothreat not having a base in Pyro is a big lore breaking mistake. CIG sucks at lore. Is anyone seriously invested in the "lore" of this game?
- Lore is changed on a whim after existing for years. Example: Pyro suddenly being what it is instead of the advertised barren\depleted system.
- Lore must account for gameplay logic despite nonsense. Example: how to explain players (private citizens) DIY "crafting" better ships than the ingame dedicated manufacturers.
the problem with PvP in SC is there are no reproductions for indiscriminate killing.... even in the Wild West there was honor and sone kind of unsaid rule of law..
Its all about reputation.
If you are in a gangs outpost or space station, causing trouble there should make you lose reputation with them and gain reputation with their enemies. For example, if I'm in a Citizens for Prosperity colony and I am friendly with Citizens for Prosperity, I shouldn't be able to shoot another player (or NPC for that matter) who is friendly with Citizens for Prosperity inside the area of the outpost without losing a lot of reputation and making CfP hostile for a while.
This would strongly discourage people from killing everything that moves on sight. People should feel safe(r) when in an outpost or space station owned by the gang of their choice. If you attack EVERYONE EVERYWHERE, than you'll lose reputation with EVERYONE EVERYWHERE to the point where there is pretty much no outpost or space station you can go that wont shoot you on sight.
💯
The game is the dartboard my man, we're not throwing darts at anyone. Beating you at a game of darts is the same as beating you in combat in SC.
in order for your darts analogy to work players of the game would have to be harming each other outside of the gamerules/game world.
Merry Christmas.
All analogies are imperfect by definition.
@@RaysGuideYours especially.
@@nixlad I take it youre one of the toxic sadistic players? the analogy is spot on, CiG never meant SC to be a murderfest and they have said that is why they want reputation. People who only see SC one dimensionally, Must kill, Must kill, show a lack of depth that this game is built for.
@@XxTavoRxX To clarify my position, I think Pyro should be a murderfest. I do not think stanton should be. To suggest Pyro be something else, would be to make Pyro High Security, which is preposterous.
First.
This community is too soft and prescious. It needs to harden up. You are responsible for both your own safety and fun.
trying to be responsible for our fun, but others get off on making others gameplay less enjoyable. How big and tough are you to play in a group looking for solo players in non combat ships to murder for fun? you want pvp or do you just want easy kills to get off on? sadistic is a very apt word for those kind of players
darts analogy is stupid as hell. losing a pvp engagement in a video game that currently has close to zero consequences for dying?
you entirely missed his point. PvPers say they want to compete against other players because AI is too easy and boring, but then they lose interest in other equal players, so now they look for easier targets to satisfy their urges. his point is that people who arent interested in pvp are not a challenge, are not interested, and want to play other loops and those pvpers are sadistically getting enjoyment out of ruining the other players gameplay. and I am sure you will now say, "well dont play it then, its supposed to be all PVP"
Frankly that would be wrong, and a far larger percentage of players are looking at SC as something other than Call of Duty 2954.
CiG says "play the game your way" and pvpers say" NO, you have to play our way"
@@XxTavoRxX "you can only attack me if i agree to it" classic carebear narcissism. yall have ruined almost every game when the devs listen to you people. you people are freaks and cry bullies
Rays Guid