There are comparisons to be drawn between superheroes and pagan polytheism, especially when it comes to the retelling of their mythology and reenterpretation.
Well actually i was talking about the structure and what is concidered canon, how the many versions of the characters stories are concidered valid despite telling very diferent versions. Superheroes are American Mythology no dought, though i whould compare them to a western version of Taoism rather than say ancient hellenic religion.
polytheism is just monotheism spread out over multiple characters. every story, no matter what form it takes, is revealing different aspects of the same one 'character' and the part(s) humanity plays in relation to this character we call god.
hermeticism is more to do with transmutation of lowest nature in order to attune one's own will with god's will, i.e. getting the (false) self out of the way.
I remember when I was in Bible College my roommate and I had just gotten out of a class about the early church councils, and we were talking about how cool these councils were. We thought they were so cool, we should have a Council of Lancaster. We spent hours thinking up what the Council of Lancaster could be about. Our minds wandered somehow from theology to Star Wars. Long story short, we decided the Council of Lancaster would be deciding what Star Wars Clone Wars TV show would be canon. Good times.
I really like this analogy. I remember thinking something similar when comic books & Marvel films would constantly retcon origin stories of certain Heroes & Villains to keep them fresh & relevent.
Spot on. You could take the metaphor even further and use it to clarify the usual problems students might have when the concepts of (biblical) text history and editorial history are introduced - The scenes of Star Wars movies were shot multiple times, compiled by Lucas - and fans cut them again, put them in new order...Special Editions, DVD releases etc. pp. Found your channel some days ago, really like it so far (my own background is Catholic Theology though).
This is an interesting comparison. To take it even further, some people on the fringe of Christianity might wonder why something like the Gospel of Judas is so widely rejected as canonical, even though it fits within roughly the same time period as other canonical books. It's not just that it reverses a widely accepted view of a central character, but it's that the canonical 27 books of the NT have been accepted as the only canon for so long, it's too big of a change to suddenly rewrite all those bibles to accept this "new" information. It's like if 100 years from now, there's some newly discovered Star Wars work-- say a script written by George Lucas himself or even someone like Lawrence Kasden. It may fit into the timeline correctly, it may be a good story, but at that point in history, the main Skywalker 9-movie series plus the TV shows plus canonized novels have been used and accepted as the only canon for so long, Disney as well as most Star Wars fans would not accept it as canon, no matter what it was...especially, if it were something like the Gospel of Judas that suddenly painted Darth Vader in a completely different light
One note: from what I understand, the issue with the GoJ is a little more than just its portrayal of Judas, but rather that its a thoroughly Gnostic work and relies on completely different worldview. So itd be more like if that newly discovered Star Wars script denied that the force existed and claimed Tatooine was a lush jungle planet during the original movies. Such a script isn't coherent with the rest of the canon, regardless of how it portrays Vader
I want to know these: Did the Old Testament also underwent a canonization? If the New Testament underwent a canonization, how we can be sure New Testament now were not manipulated, and accurate? Is it true that men found thousands manuscript of Book of John, as well as the other books in Bible, and none of these manuscripts are alike? Hope you'd notice this. I would love to watch more of your posted videos to know the reality about Bible and Jesus. Thank you.
Yes the Old Testament’s canonization was just as messy a process as the New Testament’s canonization. This can be seen in how the Hebrew Bible used by modern Jews differs from the Old Testaments of different Christian sects. The modern Jewish Hebrew Bible and the Protestant Old Testament are roughly the same as both based on the 9th century Masoretic text. The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Ethiopian Orthodox contain several books not part of the Jewish and Protestant Old Testaments as they are at least partially based on the Septuagint.
Another thing people fight against and for is the Canonization of the Grey Jedi. To make such a long, tedious topic short for those who don't know what I am talking about, The Grey Jedi are a fan creation made by people, who did like the whole Jeid vs Sith dichotomy and wanted to create a middle ground between the two in order to make it more grey. The difference between a grey jedi and a normal jedi are that the latter doesn't use emotions such as the fear,hatred and anger(Dark side emotions) to channel the force, whereas a Grey Jedi would use dark side powers to gain power. The problem however with grey jedi is that a medium between light and dark cannot exist because the dark side is NOT a natural part of the force, but a corruption of it like a cancer or nuclear waste and using it WILL corrupt you. To know more about this topic, watch the failure of the grey jedi or the official answer if they are Canon, please thanks and like this comment.
I'm a seminarian and my professor who taught Early Christianites taught the formation of the canon this exact way. One of the most entertaining and lively classes of the semester
This was a great comparison! I think I actually have a better understanding of canonization (of holy texts). It all seemed so vague and cloudy before. 😌👍
I think the Disney movies are about as canon as The Gospel of Judas. Lol When you think about it, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas would be like the prequels, in describing the youth of the prophetic savior.
@@p.bamygdala2139 the Disney movies are the gospel of judas. The expanded universe (atleast the part that takes place after the og trilogy) are the acts of the apostles.
Thanks for this channel, it's both informative and affirms my agnosticism regarding the divinity of the bible. The Christians in my life make me explain that even if it was written down by god himself in front of 100 unimpeachable witnesses, 2000 years of translation in the hands of powerful humans renders it unreliable at best.
I don't think most mainstream Christian denominations regard the Bible as divine. I think only Muslims think that Qur'an is divine. Mainstream Christians just claim that the Bible is divinely inspired, but still written by human.
Personally, as a Catholic, I never in my recent life believed that it was by God himself. Rather, I believed that it (at least the Old Testament and some parts of the New Testament) was simply God talking to certain people which inspired them to pass it on until it was written and then translated. Nowadays, I believe that some of it is God telling people what happened, but embellished and yet "simplified" for the ancient people, some of it is symbolic or semi-symbolic visions from God (like Revelation), and other parts are historical but from the point of view of certain people. Of course, I also still believe that it took ages before they were written down and they've gone through ages of rewriting and translation. What's nice about there being four Gospels is you can deduce what happened (sorta accurately) from the four different perspectives (or in the case of some stories, two perspectives)...
Okay Catholic tradition (and most Christian dominations traditions) have it that it is written by God inspiring Holy men. And the 2000 years of translation argument is mute. The same argument can be more accurately applied to every other historical document. The Gallic Wars are considered relatively reliable historical sources but they are copies of copies of what Ceasar wrote because Paper/Parchment/Papyrus typically don't last that long. And also we have fragments from the first Century that without fail are typically over 99% exact. The only common difference being different spellings of names and updated place names.
@@ikengaspirit3063 here's the essence of ny translation argument: any translation reflects the bias of the translator. Compare passages in the NKD vs. the KJ, the interpretation is chosen for you. Also, check out Religion for Breakfast's excellent video on how daimons became demons. Then convince me that the council of Nicea didn't modify or rearrange the scriptures in a way most inducive to servitude and submission. Maybe you could translate it from Greek for me, but there'd still be your motives to question.
I actually see the same thing going on among the Harry Potter Fandom, especially with the cursed child. I outright reject it, despite Rowling's claim of canonical status, as it has many contradictions with the 7 Books (The A-Canon- the "Gospels"). However, if an interviewer (or a group of interviewers) would ask about the plot holes and Rowling gave logical answers, I would accept it as Canon. I also accept the Careers of the Main Characters in the play as Canon, as IIRC, Rowling already stated them before the play. The B-Canon are the new edition of Fantastic Beasts, Quidditch Through the Ages, Tales of Beadle the Bard, and the Fantastic Beast Movies. The C-Canon is Pottermore and all statements by Rowling about the Canon that do not relate to the cursed child. That play and and the original Fantastic Beasts book are Apocrypha, though on different levels: The Former is a Heresy, the Latter is an incomplete and corrupted version of a Canonical Text.
Eh, I believe in the canon Fan With Too Much Time set up for his Fanfiction crossover. It makes sense, it uses both old and new very well, and it is extremely well written. Pls check out his channel he is an amazing writer and narrator
Never thought I’d see Dave Filoni referred to as a George Lucas disciple, or the Legends canon as the Apocrypha in Protestant tradition, but I’m glad I have now 😂
I personally belong to a small sect of Starwarsism that has excepted the EU as non canonical. We do however believe all that was created by the hand of the Demiurge Lucas, the evil creator god, is cannon. This means we believe the Holiday Special is indeed canon. In fact it is one of the oldest extent reels of Starwarsian teachings and explains much, even in the more recent revelation like the Dis-Ney Scrolls from the J.J. Abramic texts. The apparent virgin birth of Anakin could be explained by Harvey Corman's character in the Tatooine Bar scene, being a wandering powerful force user, met up years before with a young Shmi Skywalker. His prodigious love of pouring alcohol directly on his brain could have lead to a night of drunken debauchery and Shmi herself forgetting the encounter. Look at young Anakin's haircut. That same bowl chop that reminded Shmi of that nice man she met that sand-stormy night. This also leads to Rey being a descendant of the same character and Bea Arthur from that fateful night. Explains her force ability and the fact she has the strength of 3 whole Golden Girls. Indeed it is in line with Kylo thinking her parents were "nobodies from a desert planet". Snoke is obviously Saundan, played by Art Carney. Who is so evil he encourages elderly wookiees to engage in entirely inappropriate behavior right in their own living room. Benicio Del Toro's weird stuttering....Amorphian Being. Call me a Heretic! It all fits.
Great channel! Have you heard of a theory called Domains of belief, formulated by a Prof Kaikhosrov Irani ? He was at city college NY. There is an excellent four part interview with him on you tube. He suggested that humans have an intrinsic need to fulfil four different belief systems; the need to explain things, the need to control our environment, the need to justify actions and the need to seek significance in our existence. Historically, religious mythology was used to explain all these areas (e.g. the earthquake was cause by an angry god, we should follow the gods for ethical guidance etc) Gradually, the four domains have separated into science, technology, ethics and religion. Very relevant in today's world of religious and secular conflict.
So what you're saying is Disney's horrible entries into the Star Wars canon will be come to be like Marcian's entries into Christianity... An argument against this would be that Constantine's power was thrown behind x which gave them authority despite popularity, but that defeats your idea that Christianity was not influenced like this...
Interesting observation and something I've noticed independently. However, New Testament canon and theology is in much better shape that Star Wars canon and "theology," if you will. From the Lucas years to the Disney / Kathleen Kennedy years Star Wars canon and theology has drifted all over the place and currently has really no consistency anymore. And only 45 years have transpired. I think a lot of it has to do with having a priesthood who's full time job is to be a guardian to official canon and theology. Star Wars doesn't have that. Star Wars actually has a for-profit entity that controls its intellectual property and can do what it wants to do with it since it's motivated by market dynamics. New Testament canon and theology is not primarily profit driven so its canon and theology, to its core, has stayed fairly intact even after 2,000 years. But after just 45 years? Star Wars canon is all over the place and is as amorphous as amoeba.
I was in the middle of the New Jedi Order series when I found out it's not canon anymore...WTF!! If I keep reading them doesn't that make me a Heretic? Lol
The shaggy hair and the beard are an interesting look; however, if you want the full 1970's effect, you'll need to unbutton your shirt at least two more buttons.
If Star Wars is early Christianity I suppose that would make warhammer 40k akin to many polytheistic religions. There is a large cast of characters that everyone agrees are important and powerful although some disagreement may exist over exact natures of the characters or their backstories. Meanwhile there are thousands of stories revolving around the main cast or wider setting they exist in written by a sort of minor priestly class some of whom are more popular than others. Not all followers agree, believe or even know about all of the various tales but because things are so decentralized and individualized it normally doesn’t devolve into the canonization disputes you see in Christianity or Star Wars. I mean, I think that there are many intentional parallels between the emperor of man kind and his sons on one side and say, Zeus and his family on the other but the more meta aspect of fan fiction being encouraged and semi-supported which creating parallels to polytheistic folk beliefs and traditions might not have been something they set out to mimic.
Oh my! Excellent topic and comparisons you’ve made throughout this video. I had no idea of all the information presented here regarding the SW franchise that I wasn’t aware of and I find interesting. Catholicism says their following has dropped of in numbers, so I suggest they reinstitute universalism and absorb other cultures belief system and morph them into Catholicism, which in tribal and tech cultures it’s called cannibalism. Taking only what you need from something else. They should just absorb the SW fan base into becoming Catholicism. They are zealots like the Christians of old, but I’m sure Disney won’t have it. The main difference in comparison between these two entities is Christianity wasn’t far away and actually happened. Where as Star Wars only happened initially in the mind of one man, and has been experienced in a theater near you. The word Canon has never had the type of impact on me as to when it’s current usage for Star Wars, which is all negative. Now whether the story of Luke’s wife is explored or not, I would prefer a clear and indisputable true story of Mary Magdalene history.
simplicity is always the best, canons should always be exclusive should always be disposed to exclude rather than include. that said it does not mean that other books cannot be written, they just would not be included in the canon and can never supersede canon. God is always speaking and men will continue to be inspired and more books will be written. The main problem I have most extra canon books is that they are too detail they tend not to leave much to the reader and want to answer too many questions books in the canon should leave space for God to speak to the reader
Kind of disappointed that you didn't mention that the foundational influence for George Lukas' Star Wars was Joseph Campbell, which is the actual connection of Star Wars to religion, myth, and meaning...
I have some criticism towards this comparison, and I think there are some missed opportunities: 1. the George Lucas of NT is Paul, not Jesus or the apostles. However, Paul and the rest of the NT is not in perfect harmony -- there was the struggle of ideological differences since the beginning. 2. Overall the process of NT formation is more organic and drawn out -- it took hundreds of years for people to mostly agree on a canon list after the last book has been written. 3. Everybody knows star wars is fiction and newer stories are not written by Lucas, whereas if you want your own gospel/acts/epistle/revelation to be read, you better have to claim they are from Paul/Apostles. Essentially you are creating a forgery.
One thing I don't understand is why refer to the years in the gregorian calendar as "CE" I know that "AD" sounds a bit religious but the calendar is religious in nature!
And now with the rise of of the third installment of Disney Canon and the growing disillusionment of many old fans, we see parallels to Luther and the Reformation.
I have a question or doubt about early christianity. So those who refer Nietszche in The Antichrist that altered Judaism and the philosophy of Jesus were not just the apostols, so all of those important figures who lead the way out of Judaism?
star wars, star trek, e.t., superman, flash gordon, six million dollar man, incredible hulk, etc. were big movies / tv shows in the 70s and 80s now, scifi films were like cookie-cutter thing (mass-produced), nothing "magnetic" or "appetizing" (except avatar, probably) people watched them simply to kill time for a lazy weekend. in fact, many of my family & friends were no longer fond of scifi. they've probably grown weary there are endless array of scifi films since the '50s/'60s (the golden age of american films). however, as time passed, scifi films were no longer as exciting and interesting as they used to be. they're only appealing after major events like world war 2 also, most scifi films were loaded with mumbo jumbos (lexicon of scientific jargons) that would take you 100,000 lightyears to decipher and absorb its complexity. in addition, most are rehashed stories (lacking originality) the visual effects & cinematography were the only consolation and "saving grace"
The Gospel according to (St.) Luke Skywalker would probably be worth a read. But even the G Canon is inconsistent within itself. I mean, who shot first? Did Greedo even shoot at all? Yeah, it's not easy writing canon. Like if you're about to make me Internet canon fodder.
I've never did like when Star Wars fans mixed up with similarities to religious/religion- history. Never understood it besides Disney still needs to add up The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Another edition to Christianity and restore Star Wars to it's former glory. Besides that would be another religious fiction we all have grasp our minds around and it's history too.
I’ve been binge watching Dr. Brakke’s lectures on Gnosticism on the Great Courses app. He is a very good speaker. I just thought it was interesting that you mentioned him. Hmmmm. Putting it into the theme of this video, would the Gnostics= people who seriously call themselves Jedi? Lol.
Sorta? Except, most people just don't care about them. I don't know of anyone actively hating on people who call themselves Jedi, let alone to the extent that the Gnostics were. But in terms of belief tho, yes? I can't tell if the comparison is accurate...
Don't forget the US Constitution! A lot of American fundamentalists seem to think King James brought the document (or at least its second amendment) down on tablets of stone from the mountain.
ReligionForBreakfast, I think this comparison is somewhat problematic, only because religious people, tend to take their cannon much more seriously than people take the Star Wars cannon, and that includes Christians. You might get into a heated debate with a rabid Star Wars fanboy over what is, and what isn't cannon, but pretty much no one is going to say that you're going to Hell or accuse you of being a bad person for simply rejecting the new Star Wars trilogy. Also I don't think that anyone out there thinks that the stories about "a galaxy long ago and far far away," are literally true in the way that some Christians view the Bible.
There are comparisons to be drawn between superheroes and pagan polytheism, especially when it comes to the retelling of their mythology and reenterpretation.
Definitely. The recent Black Panther movie had a lot of shamanism in it too.
Well actually i was talking about the structure and what is concidered canon, how the many versions of the characters stories are concidered valid despite telling very diferent versions. Superheroes are American Mythology no dought, though i whould compare them to a western version of Taoism rather than say ancient hellenic religion.
No, it's occult stuff like hermeticism. Imposing one's will over the universe and manifesting it.
polytheism is just monotheism spread out over multiple characters. every story, no matter what form it takes, is revealing different aspects of the same one 'character' and the part(s) humanity plays in relation to this character we call god.
hermeticism is more to do with transmutation of lowest nature in order to attune one's own will with god's will, i.e. getting the (false) self out of the way.
2:59 You have a couple of Star Trek novels.
Is that syncreticism?
I remember when I was in Bible College my roommate and I had just gotten out of a class about the early church councils, and we were talking about how cool these councils were. We thought they were so cool, we should have a Council of Lancaster. We spent hours thinking up what the Council of Lancaster could be about. Our minds wandered somehow from theology to Star Wars. Long story short, we decided the Council of Lancaster would be deciding what Star Wars Clone Wars TV show would be canon. Good times.
I must say, it's an interesting metaphor. I also love the nerdiness here, Andrew :)
Labelling it as G, T, and C canon reminds me of the scholarly debates regarding documentary hypothesis
The documentary hypothesis has largely been refuted in Europe whereas it's still popular in academic circles in the Anglosphere.
I was just thinking yesterday about the similarities between religions and fandoms...
Jonathan Geisert Star wars is a religion, not a fanbase.
Duly noted.
@Antonio Sosa fiction in this world you mean? Do you know what goes beyond this plain of existence?
The new Disney Star Wars 7 & 8 are like the Gospel of Judas and Peter, they should be classified as heresies.
hahaha love it.
RRK93 HaloHa absolutely true!
apocryphas
so u are an old believer ;-)
@@MrTerapak they are the better movies though
I really like this analogy. I remember thinking something similar when comic books & Marvel films would constantly retcon origin stories of certain Heroes & Villains to keep them fresh & relevent.
Love this concept. It's a great way to help this generation understand an ancient process.
Spot on. You could take the metaphor even further and use it to clarify the usual problems students might have when the concepts of (biblical) text history and editorial history are introduced - The scenes of Star Wars movies were shot multiple times, compiled by Lucas - and fans cut them again, put them in new order...Special Editions, DVD releases etc. pp.
Found your channel some days ago, really like it so far (my own background is Catholic Theology though).
Wow, you're totally right. And that's not even stretching the metaphor, I think it helps.
4 gospels, plus peter and thomas. That's all I need and want. The tone shift to paul with acts and on just killed it for me...
I find it so fascinating that, no matter how long human society lasts, we still find ourselves writing stories about angels with flaming swords.
This is an interesting comparison. To take it even further, some people on the fringe of Christianity might wonder why something like the Gospel of Judas is so widely rejected as canonical, even though it fits within roughly the same time period as other canonical books. It's not just that it reverses a widely accepted view of a central character, but it's that the canonical 27 books of the NT have been accepted as the only canon for so long, it's too big of a change to suddenly rewrite all those bibles to accept this "new" information. It's like if 100 years from now, there's some newly discovered Star Wars work-- say a script written by George Lucas himself or even someone like Lawrence Kasden. It may fit into the timeline correctly, it may be a good story, but at that point in history, the main Skywalker 9-movie series plus the TV shows plus canonized novels have been used and accepted as the only canon for so long, Disney as well as most Star Wars fans would not accept it as canon, no matter what it was...especially, if it were something like the Gospel of Judas that suddenly painted Darth Vader in a completely different light
One note: from what I understand, the issue with the GoJ is a little more than just its portrayal of Judas, but rather that its a thoroughly Gnostic work and relies on completely different worldview. So itd be more like if that newly discovered Star Wars script denied that the force existed and claimed Tatooine was a lush jungle planet during the original movies. Such a script isn't coherent with the rest of the canon, regardless of how it portrays Vader
Wow, this might be my favorite video you've done. I'm glad to learn you are a fellow huge star wars nerd
I want to know these:
Did the Old Testament also underwent a canonization?
If the New Testament underwent a canonization, how we can be sure New Testament now were not manipulated, and accurate?
Is it true that men found thousands manuscript of Book of John, as well as the other books in Bible, and none of these manuscripts are alike?
Hope you'd notice this. I would love to watch more of your posted videos to know the reality about Bible and Jesus. Thank you.
Yes the Old Testament’s canonization was just as messy a process as the New Testament’s canonization. This can be seen in how the Hebrew Bible used by modern Jews differs from the Old Testaments of different Christian sects. The modern Jewish Hebrew Bible and the Protestant Old Testament are roughly the same as both based on the 9th century Masoretic text. The Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Ethiopian Orthodox contain several books not part of the Jewish and Protestant Old Testaments as they are at least partially based on the Septuagint.
Love this video!!!! As a fan of Star Wars and Religious Studies, it was perfect.
There's a life sized porg in the background.
“The historical documents”. Galaxy Quest
Lol just saw Galaxy Quest for the first time 2 weeks ago
Joseph Campbell was the Religious/Myth adviser for the start of the series
Absolutely beautiful. A truly perfect blending of the scholastic, the spiritual, and of the . . . um . . . well of Star Wars. :)
Another thing people fight against and for is the Canonization of the Grey Jedi. To make such a long, tedious topic short for those who don't know what I am talking about, The Grey Jedi are a fan creation made by people, who did like the whole Jeid vs Sith dichotomy and wanted to create a middle ground between the two in order to make it more grey. The difference between a grey jedi and a normal jedi are that the latter doesn't use emotions such as the fear,hatred and anger(Dark side emotions) to channel the force, whereas a Grey Jedi would use dark side powers to gain power. The problem however with grey jedi is that a medium between light and dark cannot exist because the dark side is NOT a natural part of the force, but a corruption of it like a cancer or nuclear waste and using it WILL corrupt you. To know more about this topic, watch the failure of the grey jedi or the official answer if they are Canon, please thanks and like this comment.
The KOTOR games are heretical in a Gnostic sort of way, as they present the Force as a bad thing humans would be better off without.
Now I find myself wondering if there is "Bible Fan Fanction"... maybe some Jesus X Buddha slash fics?
Well, there is a Buddha and Jesus manga / anime.
ReligionForBreakfast
How about Vishnu and Cthulhu : The Series?
Can I create that without seeming too derivative?
I think that'd be a hilarious mash-up.
I've actually got a manga about Jesus, it's called the Manga Messias :')
Dave Marx,
Well given rule 34 I think its safe to say that there's some kind Jesus Buddha porn out there.
I'm a seminarian and my professor who taught Early Christianites taught the formation of the canon this exact way. One of the most entertaining and lively classes of the semester
Awesome. We apparently are all nerds. I’ve seen Harry Potter used as an analogy too.
ReligionForBreakfast I'd be interested to see how Harry Potter was used.
This was a great comparison! I think I actually have a better understanding of canonization (of holy texts). It all seemed so vague and cloudy before. 😌👍
Great video! I'm so glad I found your channel. I'm learning so much. Thank you!
I think the Disney movies are about as canon as The Gospel of Judas. Lol When you think about it, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas would be like the prequels, in describing the youth of the prophetic savior.
So the Disney films are the Acts of the Apolstles: tack-on stories about the later years of the supporting cast, and how they die off one by one.
@@p.bamygdala2139 the Disney movies are the gospel of judas. The expanded universe (atleast the part that takes place after the og trilogy) are the acts of the apostles.
Thanks for this channel, it's both informative and affirms my agnosticism regarding the divinity of the bible. The Christians in my life make me explain that even if it was written down by god himself in front of 100 unimpeachable witnesses, 2000 years of translation in the hands of powerful humans renders it unreliable at best.
I don't think most mainstream Christian denominations regard the Bible as divine. I think only Muslims think that Qur'an is divine. Mainstream Christians just claim that the Bible is divinely inspired, but still written by human.
Personally, as a Catholic, I never in my recent life believed that it was by God himself. Rather, I believed that it (at least the Old Testament and some parts of the New Testament) was simply God talking to certain people which inspired them to pass it on until it was written and then translated. Nowadays, I believe that some of it is God telling people what happened, but embellished and yet "simplified" for the ancient people, some of it is symbolic or semi-symbolic visions from God (like Revelation), and other parts are historical but from the point of view of certain people. Of course, I also still believe that it took ages before they were written down and they've gone through ages of rewriting and translation. What's nice about there being four Gospels is you can deduce what happened (sorta accurately) from the four different perspectives (or in the case of some stories, two perspectives)...
Okay Catholic tradition (and most Christian dominations traditions) have it that it is written by God inspiring Holy men.
And the 2000 years of translation argument is mute. The same argument can be more accurately applied to every other historical document. The Gallic Wars are considered relatively reliable historical sources but they are copies of copies of what Ceasar wrote because Paper/Parchment/Papyrus typically don't last that long.
And also we have fragments from the first Century that without fail are typically over 99% exact. The only common difference being different spellings of names and updated place names.
@@ikengaspirit3063 here's the essence of ny translation argument: any translation reflects the bias of the translator. Compare passages in the NKD vs. the KJ, the interpretation is chosen for you. Also, check out Religion for Breakfast's excellent video on how daimons became demons. Then convince me that the council of Nicea didn't modify or rearrange the scriptures in a way most inducive to servitude and submission. Maybe you could translate it from Greek for me, but there'd still be your motives to question.
Nice vid and beard.
Mostly the beard.
hair looks good too.
I didn't know you had a video on this, but I've made this comparison at so many dinner parties.
Usually laughed off by its attendees.
I actually see the same thing going on among the Harry Potter Fandom, especially with the cursed child. I outright reject it, despite Rowling's claim of canonical status, as it has many contradictions with the 7 Books (The A-Canon- the "Gospels"). However, if an interviewer (or a group of interviewers) would ask about the plot holes and Rowling gave logical answers, I would accept it as Canon. I also accept the Careers of the Main Characters in the play as Canon, as IIRC, Rowling already stated them before the play. The B-Canon are the new edition of Fantastic Beasts, Quidditch Through the Ages, Tales of Beadle the Bard, and the Fantastic Beast Movies. The C-Canon is Pottermore and all statements by Rowling about the Canon that do not relate to the cursed child. That play and and the original Fantastic Beasts book are Apocrypha, though on different levels: The Former is a Heresy, the Latter is an incomplete and corrupted version of a Canonical Text.
Eh, I believe in the canon Fan With Too Much Time set up for his Fanfiction crossover. It makes sense, it uses both old and new very well, and it is extremely well written. Pls check out his channel he is an amazing writer and narrator
Never thought I’d see Dave Filoni referred to as a George Lucas disciple, or the Legends canon as the Apocrypha in Protestant tradition, but I’m glad I have now 😂
I personally belong to a small sect of Starwarsism that has excepted the EU as non canonical. We do however believe all that was created by the hand of the Demiurge Lucas, the evil creator god, is cannon. This means we believe the Holiday Special is indeed canon. In fact it is one of the oldest extent reels of Starwarsian teachings and explains much, even in the more recent revelation like the Dis-Ney Scrolls from the J.J. Abramic texts. The apparent virgin birth of Anakin could be explained by Harvey Corman's character in the Tatooine Bar scene, being a wandering powerful force user, met up years before with a young Shmi Skywalker. His prodigious love of pouring alcohol directly on his brain could have lead to a night of drunken debauchery and Shmi herself forgetting the encounter. Look at young Anakin's haircut. That same bowl chop that reminded Shmi of that nice man she met that sand-stormy night. This also leads to Rey being a descendant of the same character and Bea Arthur from that fateful night. Explains her force ability and the fact she has the strength of 3 whole Golden Girls. Indeed it is in line with Kylo thinking her parents were "nobodies from a desert planet". Snoke is obviously Saundan, played by Art Carney. Who is so evil he encourages elderly wookiees to engage in entirely inappropriate behavior right in their own living room. Benicio Del Toro's weird stuttering....Amorphian Being. Call me a Heretic! It all fits.
Great channel! Have you heard of a theory called Domains of belief, formulated by a Prof Kaikhosrov Irani ? He was at city college NY. There is an excellent four part interview with him on you tube. He suggested that humans have an intrinsic need to fulfil four different belief systems; the need to explain things, the need to control our environment, the need to justify actions and the need to seek significance in our existence. Historically, religious mythology was used to explain all these areas (e.g. the earthquake was cause by an angry god, we should follow the gods for ethical guidance etc) Gradually, the four domains have separated into science, technology, ethics and religion. Very relevant in today's world of religious and secular conflict.
So what you're saying is Disney's horrible entries into the Star Wars canon will be come to be like Marcian's entries into Christianity... An argument against this would be that Constantine's power was thrown behind x which gave them authority despite popularity, but that defeats your idea that Christianity was not influenced like this...
What an excellent description of quarrels concerning dogma. Thanks very much.
All praise the holy holiday special
Blasphemy
Interesting observation and something I've noticed independently. However, New Testament canon and theology is in much better shape that Star Wars canon and "theology," if you will. From the Lucas years to the Disney / Kathleen Kennedy years Star Wars canon and theology has drifted all over the place and currently has really no consistency anymore. And only 45 years have transpired. I think a lot of it has to do with having a priesthood who's full time job is to be a guardian to official canon and theology. Star Wars doesn't have that. Star Wars actually has a for-profit entity that controls its intellectual property and can do what it wants to do with it since it's motivated by market dynamics. New Testament canon and theology is not primarily profit driven so its canon and theology, to its core, has stayed fairly intact even after 2,000 years. But after just 45 years? Star Wars canon is all over the place and is as amorphous as amoeba.
You are great! I can't get enough of your shows!
Nice study in correlation of these two stories.
G, B, and C canon? Sounds to me an awful lot like Documentary Hypothesis.
I love your channel. I love receiving unbiased and objective knowledge in this regard.
Totally unrelated, I wish I had that haircut.
Can you do a video comparing the arguments of canonization for Star Wars compared to that of "CE"?
Jeez, even Pop Culture could have it's own Mythology and Problem of Believe
Glad you use modern culture to extrapolate ancient ideas, thus making it easy for the new generations to relate.
Jah approves background music in this video
Such a smart way to teach!! 🎉well done 🎉
I grew up a Catholic and a Star Wars fan and the more I grew up the more I realized how they’re both part of a long human pattern
I wonder how everyone who scorned the novels and.comics feels now? (Excellent vid as always)
Very interesting :) I hope you expand on these thoughts in the future. I wonder if this could also be applied to Doctor Who.
My personal Star Wars canon:
- Episodes I to VI and Rogue One (G Canon)
- The Clone Wars and The Mandalorian (T Canon)
- Jedi Fallen Order (C Canon)
Star Wars needs its own Protestant reformation
I don't know about the rest of the questions, but "headcanon" has a pretty simple answer, it is nothing more than a synonym for 'not canon'.
I was in the middle of the New Jedi Order series when I found out it's not canon anymore...WTF!!
If I keep reading them doesn't that make me a Heretic? Lol
The shaggy hair and the beard are an interesting look; however, if you want the full 1970's effect, you'll need to unbutton your shirt at least two more buttons.
Another good comparison is the fallout game series. The arguments about canon are legendary.
HEY you tricked me into learning
If Star Wars is early Christianity I suppose that would make warhammer 40k akin to many polytheistic religions. There is a large cast of characters that everyone agrees are important and powerful although some disagreement may exist over exact natures of the characters or their backstories. Meanwhile there are thousands of stories revolving around the main cast or wider setting they exist in written by a sort of minor priestly class some of whom are more popular than others. Not all followers agree, believe or even know about all of the various tales but because things are so decentralized and individualized it normally doesn’t devolve into the canonization disputes you see in Christianity or Star Wars.
I mean, I think that there are many intentional parallels between the emperor of man kind and his sons on one side and say, Zeus and his family on the other but the more meta aspect of fan fiction being encouraged and semi-supported which creating parallels to polytheistic folk beliefs and traditions might not have been something they set out to mimic.
This is a really cool perspective.
Truely excellent point, well explained. Same process, Star Wars just underwent photon canonization
This is basically the opposite of the "religious people are nerds" CollegeHumor sketch
Not mentioning Lawrence Kazdan is like leaving out G.Matthew!
The difference is that in religions is all fan fiction, some canonized, other heretics.
Oh my! Excellent topic and comparisons you’ve made throughout this video. I had no idea of all the information presented here regarding the SW franchise that I wasn’t aware of and I find interesting. Catholicism says their following has dropped of in numbers, so I suggest they reinstitute universalism and absorb other cultures belief system and morph them into Catholicism, which in tribal and tech cultures it’s called cannibalism. Taking only what you need from something else. They should just absorb the SW fan base into becoming Catholicism. They are zealots like the Christians of old, but I’m sure Disney won’t have it. The main difference in comparison between these two entities is Christianity wasn’t far away and actually happened. Where as Star Wars only happened initially in the mind of one man, and has been experienced in a theater near you. The word Canon has never had the type of impact on me as to when it’s current usage for Star Wars, which is all negative.
Now whether the story of Luke’s wife is explored or not, I would prefer a clear and indisputable true story of Mary Magdalene history.
simplicity is always the best, canons should always be exclusive should always be disposed to exclude rather than include. that said it does not mean that other books cannot be written, they just would not be included in the canon and can never supersede canon. God is always speaking and men will continue to be inspired and more books will be written. The main problem I have most extra canon books is that they are too detail they tend not to leave much to the reader and want to answer too many questions books in the canon should leave space for God to speak to the reader
"In Filoni we trust"
Kind of disappointed that you didn't mention that the foundational influence for George Lukas' Star Wars was Joseph Campbell, which is the actual connection of Star Wars to religion, myth, and meaning...
Really interesting video!!
Disney is canon? Heresy! Only the three original movies were historically correct. Starting with Jar-Jar, it is nonsense.
I have some criticism towards this comparison, and I think there are some missed opportunities:
1. the George Lucas of NT is Paul, not Jesus or the apostles. However, Paul and the rest of the NT is not in perfect harmony -- there was the struggle of ideological differences since the beginning.
2. Overall the process of NT formation is more organic and drawn out -- it took hundreds of years for people to mostly agree on a canon list after the last book has been written.
3. Everybody knows star wars is fiction and newer stories are not written by Lucas, whereas if you want your own gospel/acts/epistle/revelation to be read, you better have to claim they are from Paul/Apostles. Essentially you are creating a forgery.
So George Lucas is Paul and Luke Skywalker is Jesus?
This was chefs kiss
One thing I don't understand is why refer to the years in the gregorian calendar as "CE" I know that "AD" sounds a bit religious but the calendar is religious in nature!
How does canon formation work in the movie "the book of Eli"?
Please dump the loud background music.
And now with the rise of of the third installment of Disney Canon and the growing disillusionment of many old fans, we see parallels to Luther and the Reformation.
Yeah, there are people who spend their lives trying to make both canons consistent. Which they can never be.
Only the EU matters.
Carl Sagan Had a Really nice statement on STar wars: Why did the Wooki not get a Medal ? lol :)) lol
He fought as much ... didn't he ?
No, Pablo Hidalgo does not have final authority, not as far as I am concerned. In my mind, the SW canon consists of six movies and that’s it.
I have a question or doubt about early christianity. So those who refer Nietszche in The Antichrist that altered Judaism and the philosophy of Jesus were not just the apostols, so all of those important figures who lead the way out of Judaism?
And God said "Han shot first"
Andrew really seems to like Mara Jade
Who doesn't
(Except maybe George Lucas)
Interesting information.
This video was neat even though I've never seen any of the Star Wars. Did not know it was such a complex story.
Yeah, this had a lot of dense Star Wars lore...shows how many of those novels I read as a kid.
When people love a story enough, it take a life of its own. That is... until Disney buys it out. ;)
star wars, star trek, e.t., superman, flash gordon, six million dollar man, incredible hulk, etc. were big movies / tv shows in the 70s and 80s
now, scifi films were like cookie-cutter thing (mass-produced), nothing "magnetic" or "appetizing" (except avatar, probably)
people watched them simply to kill time for a lazy weekend. in fact, many of my family & friends were no longer fond of scifi. they've probably grown weary
there are endless array of scifi films since the '50s/'60s (the golden age of american films). however, as time passed, scifi films were no longer as exciting and interesting as they used to be. they're only appealing after major events like world war 2
also, most scifi films were loaded with mumbo jumbos (lexicon of scientific jargons) that would take you 100,000 lightyears to decipher and absorb its complexity. in addition, most are rehashed stories (lacking originality)
the visual effects & cinematography were the only consolation and "saving grace"
Does that mean the Disney buyout is essentially the Council of Nicea?
I have used this comparison in the past to explain how the new testament canon came about, though I take a much more conservative perspective
The Gospel according to (St.) Luke Skywalker would probably be worth a read. But even the G Canon is inconsistent within itself. I mean, who shot first? Did Greedo even shoot at all? Yeah, it's not easy writing canon.
Like if you're about to make me Internet canon fodder.
I've never did like when Star Wars fans mixed up with similarities to religious/religion- history. Never understood it besides Disney still needs to add up The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Another edition to Christianity and restore Star Wars to it's former glory. Besides that would be another religious fiction we all have grasp our minds around and it's history too.
I’ve been binge watching Dr. Brakke’s lectures on Gnosticism on the Great Courses app. He is a very good speaker. I just thought it was interesting that you mentioned him. Hmmmm. Putting it into the theme of this video, would the Gnostics= people who seriously call themselves Jedi? Lol.
Sorta? Except, most people just don't care about them. I don't know of anyone actively hating on people who call themselves Jedi, let alone to the extent that the Gnostics were. But in terms of belief tho, yes? I can't tell if the comparison is accurate...
In this analogy, Christianity itself is a fan fiction of Judaism
Don't forget the US Constitution! A lot of American fundamentalists seem to think King James brought the document (or at least its second amendment) down on tablets of stone from the mountain.
"The Courtship of Princess Leia" is cannon, no matter what Disney says!
ReligionForBreakfast,
I think this comparison is somewhat problematic, only because religious people, tend to take their cannon much more seriously than people take the Star Wars cannon, and that includes Christians. You might get into a heated debate with a rabid Star Wars fanboy over what is, and what isn't cannon, but pretty much no one is going to say that you're going to Hell or accuse you of being a bad person for simply rejecting the new Star Wars trilogy. Also I don't think that anyone out there thinks that the stories about "a galaxy long ago and far far away," are literally true in the way that some Christians view the Bible.
Does a game being made by LucasArts count as being “inspired” such as the apostles and prophets?
PEOPLE NEVER REALIZE THIS BUT STAR WARS IS A SOCIAL CRITICISM PIECE
EU forever will be Canon to me
Could you do a series on animal rights?
Can you do one on jedi and dudeism... Since they are recognised as religions.
They Changed interdictor cruisers, after this i watched star wars (New Saga) episode 3... and well i did hate the film way lesser than i thought...
Jedi's are Knights Templars.