Cold Climate Heat Pumps for Radiant Floor Heating. No gas, no boiler!
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- Опубліковано 13 гру 2022
- Thanks to Warmboard for sponsoring this video! www.warmboard.com/
The rules are changing, inefficient energy applications are out, and energy efficiency is in. And with changing regulations, gas as a fuel source is being replaced throughout the US with electric. Heat Pumps are increasingly popular. But never have you been able to combine the efficiency of a heat pump, with the efficiency and comfort of a radiant floor heating system. Warmboard has brought a wholly new approach to radiant floor heating. Innovating with new controls, better technology, and improved performance to create an offering that can bring an unrivaled leveled of efficiency and comfort to even the coldest climates.
What You'll Learn:
SpacePak Heat Pump + Warmboard radiant is a one-of-a-kind offering. The best comfort and efficiency.
Gas is dying. Electric is the future. Time to prepare and adapt.
Flexible solutions depending on the needs of your project (size, geography, fuel source).
Panelists:
Matt Risinger, CEO Risinger Build
Terry Alsberg, Warmboard
Jim Bashford, SpacePak
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I got prices for warmboard. It was off the charts high. This is why Terry will not speak of price. I built my own with strips of plywood and aluminum fins over my subfloor and it works great.
Heat pumps are not silent. When the temp gets low and the outdoor unit ramps up for extended periods of time you will hear that unit.
Matt Resigner has great content but keep in mind it is sponsored and like most salesman they only give you the pros not the cons.
what $400 a panel isnt cheap? haha
I felt like the warm board guy was about to sell me a timeshare.
I'd like to see a picture of your version of warmboard.
I imagine it would be substantially cheaper for a diy version. Maybe time consuming to route the plywood, shape and insert aluminum fins but probably cheaper overall.
@@StringBanger 82k 😲😳. They must have a amazing margin of profit on their system.
I am fully impressed! It’s just a complete ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxGqOCINHE0Z0E5gxzSdNi9NWGugRY5Hm2 plan with the best resources and step by step instructions . These shed plans are so satisfying as if the sheds build themselves on their own. Worthy work Ryan!
We considered warmboard for our home, along with 3 of their competitors, received samples from all of them. From this mechanical engineers perspective, warmboard is in a league of its own and I have no doubt it is mechanically the most sound system and the most efficient system in terms of operating cost. The problem is the price kills the value proposition. We decided on a pex/gypcrete system because for us the brake even period for the difference in cost between the two systems was 50 years! That's $30k better spent elsewhere on the project, just please don't tell my wife ;)
As an engineer : Thank you for the analysis... (except the "telling the wife" bit 😂)
100% agreed. Great post!
Do you have any advice for the gypcrete/pex system? I'm looking to do this and the plumbers I've talked to have never heard of in floor heat being done this way
@@riddled_hugs Mike Day has a tube channel with a very good video on the radiant pex heat in concrete option.
@@riddled_hugs from the research I’ve done it seems to be common practice in England/Europe, there’s also a few guys in CT that do it, and I’ve found plenty of UA-cam videos on the subject. I found a local gypcrete supplier who made recommendations on the process like what for them is an average thickness for a pour, etc. For me it was also important to check with a structural engineer regarding wether or not our house, mainly the 2nd floor, could bare the load. I had an engineer design the layout but I’ll be installing the loops and manifolds myself but it’s nothing a plumber you trust shouldn’t be able to install
Fascinating description of warmboard aluminum and pex tube radiant heating with cold weather air to water heat pump. Pretty amazing technology... quiet, dust free, comforting. Thank you, Matt, Terry, Jim. God bless you.
We built a SIP house 4 years ago in Ontario Canada (46°N latitude) using a horizontal geothermal heatpump and radiant heat on both floors. The heat pump rary goes to second stage in the winter and has never gone to the electric backup. In the summer we use the floor as a heat sink (with some custom programming to prevent moisture on the floor) and it has been amazing!
Can you elaborate more on the heat sink part? Do you just keep the temp is the low 60's to prevent moisture build up? Or do you go lower than that?
I researched Warmboard a few years ago. Excited to know they now sell the entire system. Definitely going to add this in my new house build.
I just installed (with the help of my neighbor) warmboard in our pre civil warm home while it was up on cribbing and steel because of rotten sill beams. A 2" thick concrete topper was poured to relevel. The new deck with warmboard was installed and the house set back down. Its a 24'x26' two story farmhouse and the type S warmboard with the manifold, fittings, pex, design work and delivery was 9k. Its not completed yet but I think it was totally worth it. Great video even though we are going with propane fired since I just buried the tank.
So excited for this video. I posted about this exact same topic in a builders forum not so long ago. I love seeing the tech catch up.
As a Mech Eng this is by far the best explanation of heat pump co-efficient-of-performance
Great timing! I have been researching this exact thing lately.
heres all you need and its affordable. ua-cam.com/video/i2Ve_AYuplc/v-deo.html
Fantastic work, Matt! It's great what you've done in the last few years.
This was incredibly informative.
We used Warmboard in our custom home in 2014 and all the superlatives about the quiet and comfortable heat are absolutely true. It was the first time that I've lived in a radiant heated home and as mentioned, I'd never want anything else. We use a gas dual-combi boiler for domestic hot water and for the radiant heat. I was curious if that system could be replaced with the SpacePak. Due to cost, we probably wouldn't want to do it any time soon. But if we ever needed to replace the unit, we'd certainly like to consider this as an option.
We had a radiant floor, concrete slab with copper pipes (it was old school). Radiant is very finicky, depending on what's going on outside. As the day warms the inside floor continues to throw off heat and soon becomes unbearably warm. Concrete has this problem. I imagine wood (warmboard) is much less problematic in this way.
Warm board would work great with solar thermal.
@Hoot Owl I have radaint heat floors with pex tubing slab on grade and 2 layers of 2lnch foam one layer going one direction and the next layer going the other so the seams get cover by each other I leave my heat at 72 degrees and it stays there no hot or cold swings like yours just wonding if your floor was insulated. Best Regards Arthur
@@hootowl6354 - Like the post from Arthur Perrea here, we have a daylight basement with concrete slab on grade and foam insulation below the concrete. The embedded PEX tubing in the concrete does an excellent job at regulating temperature - the concrete slab is slow to respond to changes in the thermostat naturally, so when entertaining guests for rousing ping-pong games, it gets over-warm sometimes, but we then just crack open a window or two.
Sunny days do not cause over-warm conditions. Sunny days just mean that the thermostat is satisfied in part by the solar-heated air temperature, and the radiant heat doesn't kick on as often.
I agree with Terry’s dad. They say necessity is the mother of invention but I’ve always said laziness is the mother of invention. I get my best ideas after busting my hump at a task then finally thinking, there’s got to be a better way. 😆
As someone who has lived in homes with central forced-air heat/cool, others with minisplits, and yet others with ducted minisplits, hot water "radiators" etc.... I would go for minisplits or ducted minisplits any day. They let you zone your temperature settings easily, and the load can be shared by multiple outdoor units, which means you can have several smaller capacity outdoor units running more efficiently, rather than one giant one running at inefficient part load. But you need fresh air ventilation, otherwise indoor air quality literally stinks pretty quickly, especially in a modern, tightly sealed house with guests in the room. The advantage of per-room fresh air vents is that you can route more fresh air to the occupied rooms (using cheap air quality sensors) without having to overloadi the whole house with cold outside air just because one room is packed with guests. Works well with those tiny single-room HRVs if,you want too.
You can also instead use fancoil units in each room, which look like minisplits but use chilled/heated water (as was shown in this webinar in two variants: the high wall and the thin wall types). They work just as well as R11 based minisplits, but again you need fresh air ventilation.
And as someone noted above: radiant floor systems can't do cooling, so if you need heating AND cooling, you're duplicating capacity for your cooling sysytem, which makes zero financial and environmental sense.
I respectfully disagree. I've lived in the variety of houses you list too.... but I now live in a Tennessee house with what for me is the best HVAC configuration. We use Warmboard/Lochinvar/Tekmar and solar (roof mounted water circulation goes into the Lochinvar Squire which serves as a hot water buffer tank) for our main heating system. I have 29 different loops, so I can customize the heat performance throughout the house (i.e. bathrooms are warm, bedrooms are cool, closets are cool, living areas are moderate, kitchens are mostly moderate, garage floor is comfortable, and offices are cooler). The proper heating temperature controls work fine during fall, winter, and spring. However, cooling in the summer is achieved with a mini-split for cooling. This system too allows a variety of temperatures to be achieved in different rooms, since each room has its own cassette and control. This combination means that there is very little ducting and accompanying dust issues in the house. I said "very little" because there is some ducting associated with the ventilation system in the house. An airtight house has a problem when bathroom or kitchen vents are active. The bath/kitchen vents cause negative air pressure inside the house and make-up air has to come from someplace, so rather than allow outside air to enter the house via furnace vents or fireplace chimneys, we have a few ducts connected to a baffle/damper. These dampers are activated (via insteon smart home connections) whenever a bath/kitchen vent is activated. Hence make-up air is well managed. As to your point about "zero financial and environmental sense" I think having a split system heat pump as a backup for heating the house provides peace of mind (and cost avoidance of a catastrophy) if one is on vacation during the winter months. The heat pump can be set at a low temperature (50 degrees?) such that if there were to be a problem with the radiant boiler/circulator/gas supply, the house will not freeze and suffer water damage. The resulting combination setup allows us to take advantage of the high efficiency/effectiveness of radiant heat for 3/4 of the year, while enjoying our separate mini-split system for appropriate cooling in the separated cooling zones of the house. The initial costs were higher, but the overall cost per year for operation is lower. And, most importantly, the house is extremely comfortable. When we lived in a house with just mini-splits we were not able to enjoy the pleasures of walking barefoot throughout the house (especially warm tiles in the middle of the night). While I really liked our mini-split equipped house, the combination system in our current house is both more efficient and more comfortable. Just a sidenote: I found that adding a simple de-humidifier in my garage/shop area achieved an adequate cooling effect during the summer time.... no need for air conditioning there.
look how its done in europe, much better then in USA.
@@skipsaunders5974So how much did all this cost? Do tell.
@@JohnLee-db9zt Your "do tell" comment makes me believe you really don't care, you simply want to troll my comment. However, there may be people who are honestly curious. For them I would suggest doing a true cost comparison based on what they estimate standard construction practice costs would be vs what a well engineereed (and well installed) system would cost. In my case, the cost differential was about 15%. My builder had his preferred subcontractors and we had firm quotations for what they would charge. My builder allowed me to go find my own subcontractors/supply houses for whatever part of the construction I wished and he did not charge his "builder's mark-up" on anything I did .... including anything I personally performed labor on. Were that arrangement not true, I believe my cost differential might have been about 25%. Nevertheless the outcome (after living in the house over 10 years) has been a net cost savings of around 3% and climbing. (The longer I live in the house, the more I save ...)
-22F is -30C for us in Canada. Impressive. That could work for us in Edmonton for all but the coldest snaps that we get. -40f/c regularly once a winter, down to -58f/50c every once every few years. I have geothermal, would make a great addition.
Thank you all for the in-depth discussion about the product as a whole and its components. I had seen it mentioned on some previous Build videos but didn't grasp that it's a whole-house solution for climate control. I'm not the target audience for this product; hopefully someday!
Concrete is not bad for radiant heat but it's a thermal mass so it's slow to react. (The thermnal mass is also a good thing to keep things consistent and temp is not affected when a door or window is left open for a few minutes) The cement floor will absorb the heat and slowly release it so it's slow to feel the effect in the room. Also if you build with ICF and LiteDeck with radiant heat you keep the temp at the same. For instance, if you change the heat it will take time to heat the cement floor which will then heat the air above but then the ceiling and walls with concrete will absorb the heat until ALL are the same temp: floor, ceiling, walls and the air. So, you just keep the temp at a comfortable consistent temp.
Also, this also means that you need to have a tight envelope otherwise you will have more headaches keeping consistent temps and keeping people comfortable since its about moisture in the air. If the air is dry you will feel colder. So the tighter envelope will keep the moisture in while its cold and dry outside so people in the house will not likely touch the thermostat.
I think this wood panel with pex in it is vulnerable to damage where as concrete is very resilient to damage over its lifetime.
I think he's arguing for aluminum because the heat transfer is going to occur much quicker through aluminum than concrete at the same temperature. This will heat rooms faster which means your system can be much more efficient than with concrete
Wow that guy was very intelligent and impressive. Bonus how he knew his manufacturing location and just impressed.
I was just thinking if there a was a video available about using heat pumps for radiant that was current and this showed up !! Great and educational .
The problem with utilizing the air as your heat source (aka water-to-air heat pump) is when you need the heat the most, there’s not a lot of heat in it and COPs suffer. Consider utilizing a geothermal heat pump (water-to-water) where the COP‘s can stay high (4+) even in the dead of winter. Also, if you control the dewpoint in the room, you can do radiant cooling with the same “radiator”(warm board become a cool board).
Radiant ceilings are a more popular method of cooling than floors, and likely a more comfortable one.
Controlling dewpoint can be done, but is risky in a residential setting and requires some diligence from the homeowner. No leaving windows or doors open while the cooling is on, for example. That is common sense, but with regular AC the risk is less.
COP?
@@InexplicableBill Coefficient of Performance. Basically how much energy a heat pump can transfer for every unit of electricity it consumes.
@@superspeeder when you need heat, its the coldest outside, so the most bad time to use a heatpump........ when its warm outside its the best time to use heatpump...........but then its warm inside so u don't need one.
I've been wondering about this sort of combination myself. We have plenty of land for an in-ground water-to-water loop. Where do you suggest we look for more information?
Great video..totally will look into this system for rehab project here in Boston, MA
So essentially a monoblock heat pump, popular in Europe for quite a few years. I myself have daikin altherma 3, 6kw power (for 1550sq f house), which is using refrigerant and circulates it to outside unit, installed it costs 12k USD here (Poland) - has inbuilt 180L water tank and does hot water. Most new houses built here have under floor heating but it is essentially few cm of styrofoam, pex on top of it and then concrete like floor mix poured on top of it. Some commenters here said something to the tune "fan can freeze at low temperature" - nope, it won't, pumps have additional resistance heaters to prevent that from happening, good to minus 25'C/13 F
Warmboard is extremely expensive. That additional cost is far better spent on better windows and a better sealed/insulated exterior envelope, which will actually increase the efficiency of the home and reduce dependence on large high-cost HVAC systems. Warmboard may have small advantages, but they pale in comparison to actually making a more efficient house.
good post. but don't toss the baby out with the hydronic bathwater. there's other vendors out there a lot cheaper.
@@stevecrawford6958 very true, but generally speaking they are all far more expensive than forced air, especially since heated floors don’t do AC. You need a whole separate system for cooling, a huge additional cost ON TOP of the cost of heated floors.
@@superspeeder What about mini splits for AC?
@@timothykeith1367 sure, minisplits work great for AC, just be sure to include a dedicated whole-home dehumidifier as well if using them in a humid climate (mini splits don’t dehumidify well).
Mini splits also heat, and are also air-source heat pumps, so once installed you would no longer need the expensive heated floors.😉
But toasty feet in the morning are so cozy!
Excellent timing ! Im currently working with Peter at Warmboard… getting a design and estimate for my Truckee house remodel … also want to use air heat pump solution … my 1978 Marlette cabin is 100% electric baseboard. Switching to hydronic heating under large format ceramic tile is expected to be a huge upgrade … along with replacing roof while adding proper insulation
Give us the cost so we know what to expect. My costs at my age didnt justify to even consider the upgrade
This guy Matt is great. I used it in high end projects in Princeton and bernardsville. It works well with quartersaw wood. I was the pm and worked to frame the house
The missing slide... What was missing in the presentation, though alluded to, is that as the temperature goes down, the BTU output of the HP goes down with it. You will have the least amount of capacity when you need it the most. The most important takeaway is not how low a temperature the HP will function but to increase the efficiency of the envelope.
The Warmboard is a luxury product and the presenter made no excuses that it wasn't. It is a luxury product that will make very difficult envelopes (think walls of glass) comfortable. Well built envelopes with low BTU heating or cooling requirements will be in a position to achieve the "comfort" adjective much easier than poorly insulated, leaky ones. We have been choosing to throw technology and brute mechanical force into our homes to overcome the upfront cost cutting for too long.
I'd agree. The brute force ways of doing things are no longer cheap, so we need to get more intelligent about how we build and heat our home. If the choice is spending $30,000 dollars more to insulate, airseal and then ventilate home, but this saves an extra $1000 dollars a year in fuel, then its a no brainer when houses last 70 years plus and inflation means that fuel is only going to get more expensive.
@@tlangdon12 Why would fuel get more expensive? Consider that it has been getting less expensive, relative to inflation, for a few decades. Fuel will only increase in cost via legislation. However, a much more efficient means of comfort control is obviously necessary.
I think we should turn our attention to retrofit air sealing and radiant barrier solutions. If that is low cost and quick, much less cooling and heating sources.
@@CycleWerkz It’s the legislative route that I expect to be the source of increases.
@@tlangdon12 agreed
@@CycleWerkz fossil fuel will certainly get more expensive. The capital costs of fracking and labor costs will increase with inflation, especially considering the fracked wells have a shorter productive life span. It may continue to cheaper in specific places where it is a byproduct and doesnt have to be transported. That is not universally true for places outside the main regions of shale gas/oil. Especially now that fossil fuels are being exported, even though the USA is a net importer of oil. Are prices are going to rise to normalize with the global market all for private fossil fuel companies rent seeking profits. Only competition from especially renewable sources of electricity will reign in the prices. Additionally these are cheaper and have a longer life span then fossil fuel infrastructure at this point, again regionally dependent. Agreed, we do need to build better quality, long lasting, and well insulated buildings.
This is the most interesting video on this topic I've seen. I too have considered Warmboard which, without doubt is the most complete radiant heating product on the market. Spacpak adds a couple key features to the hvac equation. 1. Heating efficiently using electricity while 2. providing the air conditioning which of course, Warmboard isn't designed....they're comfortable heat only. Recognize, an air conditioner or heat must be purchased and ducted in addition to the warmbaord for a complete HVAC system.. The gypcrete/concrete w/pex option mentioned below by Michael Taros, I've reasoned for years may be the best "value" when matched with a Spacepak type product. The reason is, Spacepak provides the quick ramp up for heating as the gypecrete/concrete option takes time to get to a comfortable room temperature. IMO, if Warmboard can deliver on the $6.00 per square foot along with the surcharge for the Spacepak equipment, they've moved closer to being not just the leader in radiant floor technology, they always now a better value for the best heating/hvac system in the market. This is the future. Thank you Matt and cast for pulling this all together.
I'll need to see if this heat pump system will work with my hydronic baseboard heat. Finding a replacement has been such a pain.
I worked at McMurdo station in Antarctica when that warmboard was being installed!
I use an air to water heat pump and it is fantastic. My entire energy use - including my car - is electricity. I've already offset a third with solar PV. Hopefully over the next few years I'll remove more.
Hey Matt, I have followed you for years and really appreciate the perspective and new info you bring to the game. I watched this episode with eagerness, as I have been studying up on air source heat pumps for the last year. I was looking forward to hearing what the ambient temperature operating capacity for this particular unit is, as I have not found anything yet that is a viable option for Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. To see and ambient rating of -22 F or -30 C is an amazing improvement in heat pump technology. I live just outside of Calgary Alberta, and the only problem is, tonight is supposed to go down to -40 F or -40 C and the temps are supposed to stay below -30 C for the next 5 days and it is not even January yet! Now, granted this is highly unusual weather we are getting right now, but we normally get below -30 in late January for a few days, but we shouldn't design our systems on normals but on the extremes, just like your build with hurricanes in mind. Until this technology can handle -45 C to -50 C it would be foolish to invest in it here on the prairies in Canada. There has to be some way to create an ambient air chamber that can be preheated to increase the ambient that is entering the unit and maintain the efficiency benefits of heat pumps.
You wouldn’t pre-heat the ambient environment with the goal of increasing heat pump efficiency, you install backup heat in the home for those extremely low but infrequent temperatures. Resistance electric is the most popular, though a gas or propane backup would be less expensive to run.
> Until this technology can handle -45 C to -50 C it would be foolish to invest in it here on the prairies in Canada.
It isn't foolish--you let the heat pump handle everything down to -30 C (including very efficient air conditioning for those hot summers) and let electrical resistance backup elements in the buffer tank handle temperatures below that.0
@@hailexiao2770 yes. We’ll be waiting a long time for heat pumps to work effectively and efficiently at -50C, lol. I don’t think we have refrigerants on the horizon, or anywhere, that would fit that bill. Not to mention the market for heat pumps gets smaller and smaller the colder you go. For now it’s expensive electric resistance or cheaper fossil fuels for heating at those extremely low temps.
@@superspeeder There's always ground source heat pumps. If you consistently see -50C but are lucky enough not to have permafrost, that's one of the few situations where GSHPs make financial sense.
@@hailexiao2770 very true, good point.
My house has warmboard on the main level and infloor hydronic in the basement concrete floor. We've attached it go a 3-in-1 geothermal system. We're up in New Brunswick (to the east of Maine for you geography challenged folk). We're actually so well insulated we don't need much heat but it's definitely a nice system.
How did you insulate your concrete floor?
We did 2” R10 of rigid foam. Then our radon barrier. Then 2.5” of the honey comb shaped rigid foam where you can snake the hydronic pipes through it. Then 4” of concrete. So subslab it’s R20.
Outstanding! Thanks.
If you don’t mind me asking, how much was the geothermal system? We’re getting quotes that are insanely expensive compared to what the internet says it should cost 🤷♂️
I had one insane quote at like 60k plus a bunch of stuff (site work etc).
Best quote I got was 28k plus tax. This was 2020 before rampant inflation.
I’ve had in slab radiant heat before. It took 2 days to get up to temp but it didn’t vary even 1 degree after that. It’s the most consistent and economical heat I’ve ever had in a house. However, if I wanted to vary temps between nighttime sleeping and daytime heat then warmboard would have the advantage.
Brilliant! Thank you!
interesting information thanks
I have about 350 gallon tank of hot water ,heated up by wood .With a hot water propane tank also tied into the loop in the floor. The hot water wood tank water is not part of the floor water running in the floor tubes. The floor water is in copper pipes in the large tank. The large tank is insulated ,but is not under pressure. It's a simple system and propane hot water tank only comes on when house is below 50. Pump ,expansion tank and propane hot water tank all simple . My floor tubes is ,some kind of plastic made for that use. I covered the tubes with a 11/2 of concrete. Tile on top but did have some tiles crack from heat . Floor heat is the best in a cold climate and dogs and cats just love it. My system been working 40 years with no problems. I change out the propane hot water tank this year because the thermostat gave out and was to old to find a replacement. What I like about the wood hot water I burn the wood hot and heat the big water tank up and forget about it for 24 hrs. I like your floor panels and going to check it out for a little cabin.
Great content. Nicely done.
Excellent educational video
Best video you’ve ever done. Very informative and the guests are obviously very intelligent and well spoken. Thanks Matt!
I was impressed that a structural flooring guy was so knowledgeable about heat pumps!
Thanks for sharing this awesome product. I always hated the non-in-slab solutions because of a lack of good thermal conduction. Ideally, going from metal tubing directly to a metal thermal dissipater offers better conductance, but the Warmboard design is an excellent solution to me for this application. I've been researching split systems for AC and radiant heat components for my final home and had dismissed heat pump technology for my cold (-20 F) location. Warmboard would be perfect for me but I'm certain that the cost is going to be a huge part of the decision.
The concretes advantage is it will hold more heat. The warmboard might get the heat out quicker but the concrete will keep heating for longer.
Good point I didn’t think about that! So don’t use this on a new concrete slab?
@@golfaddict75 absolutely on a slab! The inventor is comparing use in a joist type floor....in that situation concrete may not be ideal bc of the weight. 2-4" of insulation under the concrete.
We have radiant floor heat in suspended concrete six inch spacing with a ground source heat pump. Buffer tank is 95 degrees tops. Condition crawl space . I love it. So glad to see it
@@golfaddict75 The standard in Europe is 8 inches of insulation under the slab and radiant water pipes set into the slab about 2 inches below the surface. But lots of thermal mass means very slow response times. The people building using Passivhaus concepts sometimes tweak the thickness of the slab so that the slab reaches its warmest around 9pm, and then the heat pump is turned off until 9am the next day. The slab releases heat that has been gathered during the warmest part of the day overnight when temperatures tend to drop. This way of working also allows more of the electricity that is operating the heat pump to be produced from solar.
for the price warmboard costs could just go with solar panels and electric radiant heat
Superb video, your content is awesome!
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One advantage not mentioned is that the house can still be considered "light" with warm board instead of a concrete topping. This allows more leeway when designing seismic system for the house. When using concrete topping or a tiled roof, you have to consider the house as "heavy".
Great discussion thanks! I live in Colorado mountains at 9600 ft, same climate zone (7) as Alaska, but much dryer due to altitude. I converted my 2,000 sf house from central propane furnace to radiant floor, but as I came in from the subfloor in crawl space, I have to run at about 140F on design day (-14F) home heat load on design day is 43 kbtu via the model J calcs. I put in four Veissmann solar hot water panels and have 240 gal of HW storage. This is connected to a conditioning tank on the bottom of a propane HTC unit which allows me to transfer some of my stored heat. I'm using about 1/3 the propane as before but in winter here propane is expensive. Also, I want to go all electric. Do you work with water - water heat pumps? I know from commercial buildings these usually work in the 60-80F source heat range to provide the up to 140F I need. Mid-winter my panels still make 140-150F water for my storage tanks. I think using this storage, a heat exchanger to provide the right temps to the heat pump, and water to water heat pump would be super efficient and allows for heating through those snowy/cloudy days from stored energy in tanks. I also think the heat pump could be maximized for efficiency with the narrow source temp band. Do you work with any suppliers like this? I plan to use Warmboard S for an upcoming project to enclose and heat our deck. Is there a simple way to reduce radiant supply temp for this space, although it will be one spare circuit on my home's max 140F supply?
They were $225 for the structural, then $350 for the remodel panel, now I don’t want to know either. Just the floor could cost you $30,000 in a normal size house. It’s just to much. 😢
This assumes the $225/panel mentioned above. Advantech is over $100 a panel so for a 3200 sq ft home (100 sheets), you're talking an upcharge of about 12.5k... considering the cost of ductwork, framing considerations for ductwork and labor alone I feel it's already cheaper to go with warm Board.
@@bjcombs1989 you are correct, if the 1 1/8 warmboard is $400 and the LP 1 1/8 is $100 you need to deducted $100 from $400. The $225 is years and years old. So you’re paying $30,000 for your heating just for the floors!!!! Warm board also up charges for the boilers, pipe, fittings, pumps, blue prints etc etc that you can build in the stores for about $2,000. Im sorry but $50k for some heat is a rip off!!! You can install the pipes under the LP flooring and still have radiant heat.
@@bjcombs1989 you are correct, if the 1 1/8 warmboard is $400 and the LP 1 1/8 is $100 you need to deducted $100 from $400. The $225 is years and years old. So you’re paying $30,000 for your heating just for the floors!!!! Warm board also up charges for the boilers, pipe, fittings, pumps, blue prints etc etc that you can build in the stores for about $2,000. Im sorry but $50k for some heat is a rip off!!! You can install the pipes under the LP flooring and still have radiant heat and everything minus your subfloor shouldn’t be over $3k which it all depends on your boiler. A $500 hot water tank works just as well.
@@neckofthewoods24 I haven't researched the price myself to know the $225 is old. It still has advantages and just comes down to what each individual job requires.
The fact that the company charges a non-refundable design fee just to get a price makes me not want to do business with them. Tell me what sheets are available and what I can buy them at and I'll consider it, but make me pay to find out your price feels like price fixing to me.
@@bjcombs1989 they always told me the two times I asked. Once for the S and once for the R’s. That was about 2 years ago for the R’s. Even at the old pricing I couldn’t see paying that much more for a subfloor. Thats when the S’s were $225 and LP was $50. That’s $17,500 more just for a floor. Since we all know Matt’s said it a million times, wood has a horrible R value, stapling the plates under the subfloor will still work! It’s only 3/4” of wood.
I love my warmboard... I installed this in my house in 2013. The only thing that I did that was "special" was I used a grinder to ensure all the custom cuts were "soft" and prevented from damaging the PEX as it expands/contracts. So far, no problems at all.... My system was designed by NRT (no longer in business) but they provided the loop layout, the Tekmar control information, and my Lochinvar Knight/Squire system design. Interesting that I live in Tennessee where most of this stuff originates, but there are NO service personnel near Knoxville for Lochinvar, Tekmar, nor radiant heat installations --- so I did all the installation my self (except for the gas where I contracted with a properly licensed gas plumber.) One thing not mentioned is that Warmboard provides a router bit that is suitable for making specialized custom routing of the Pex..... very well engineered product.
So how much did it cost?
@@captainamerica9353 Just a side-note. I used warmboard over joists on the main floor. For the basement, we used a vapor barrior, rock, 2" rigid foam insulation, Number 10 wire mesh, pex wired to the mesh, and an isolated concrete pour over everything. This way there was a floating concrete slab heated with the pex that was thermo-isolated from the surrounding foundation walls and below grade dirt.....this was cheaper than the warmboard (but I must admit the end solution isn't quite as thermally responsive as our main floor).
@@skipsaunders5974 , so how much did it cost?
@@captainamerica9353 I believe the Warmboard costs were about 10% over what might have been the standard building practice costs. I can't be sure because I parsed the costs over a total HVAC, buliding construction system perspective and not an "individual component" perspective. In my case, I viewed the everything as a whole system which included my split heat-pump cooling design, my gas boiler selection, my radiant roofing, my insulation, my dehumidification, my window/wall insulation approach, etc. I estimate my costs were about 15% over what might have been, but the comfort enhancement is priceless, the long term cost benefits continue as my hvac efficiencies exceed those of my neighbors. Anyone truly interested in construction costs practices needs to view the interplay of all the components as part of a system.
the space pac is a mini split unit !! cool
I've been looking at this all month. I want a system for the house and the driveway/sidewalk. No more shoveling snow
cheap and easy if done right! just dont use water!! ua-cam.com/video/i2Ve_AYuplc/v-deo.html
There's a UA-camr who DIYed a radiant heat system for his driveway in the Midwest. You may want to take a look at some of his videos for breakdowns on costs and the realities of running such a system. I believe he was spending a few dollars/hr on days that he used it to melt snow.
Excellent
Great video😊
I live (since 2001) in a house with radiant floor in concrete. When it's cold for days it's ok, however when one day is cold and the next day is sunny and the temperature is high, then the radiant on the slab is not the best due to high inertia. Choosing radiant on concrete or the Warmfloor system depends on the climate area where you live.
such a great content.
I installed the structural panel about 15 years ago. It was a loft on 17th street in NYC. It was over 2000 sf. 7th floor . The panels are very heavy. Two guys per panel all day long bringing them up on the elevator. Its a very nice product but its way too expensive. If my client wasn't so insistent on it i would have been happy. The owner of warmboard sounds like a car salesman. Hes very good at what he does.
Great video Matt. Thank you for putting in all the work and keep it very informative.
I'm planning on building a custom home out in the country. In the summer the temperatures can easily hit 110F and in the winter they can dip below freezing point. I literally hate how much noise and inconvenience the forced air system produces. So my plan is geothermal heat pump with radiant cooling/heating.
Since you covered those topics on your channel before, I wonder what are your thoughts on that and if you know of any company that specializes in those systems. Much appreciated.
Any recommended ground source heat pumps to pair with Warmboard?
It's interesting to watch this discussion, because one of these guys is a genius; he mostly sits there contemplating levels of design and implementation that far exceeds what the customer wants to hear, but then when he does speak, he puts every single thing into terms anyone can understand. When the other two are talking and explaining things, you can see his mind working to make sure everything coalesces into a message that will resonate well with consumers. It is one thing to design a single, effective product, and determine how that product can be utilized. It is something else, entirely, to understand how everything ties into the successful utilization of that product, improving upon its design, and then "selling" that product and design to a largely ignorant market.
I found the conversation laden with unnecessary sales talk, and unending references to Warmboard and Spacepack. I wanted to hear the words "ground source heat pump" but never did. I found this largely useless.
Would love to see a video about a water to water heat pump for using geothermal heat to radiant heat
I second that!
You may be disappointed with the price of geothermal vs the price of air to water.
@@paulmcgown7504 unfortunately where I'm at air to water isn't a great option for me as it's regularly Below zero.
I built my home in the early 90 with all radiant floors using an oil boiler. Later switched to a water to water geothermal pump and dump system. Continuous 55 degree water right from the well on an inverter constant pressure pump. Very cost effective to operate but The 3 ton compressor didnt get quieter with age and soon became a huge nuisance as my mechanical room is adjacent to my living room. I have no basement as I built next to a creek, hence my unlimited supply of water. Its just a heat pump with a buffer tank. It had a desuper heater on the unit but it was never used as I only used the unit for heat. My cooling system is separate ductless units and chilled water is a pain to insulate anyway. Now I use a small gas condensing boiler, super quiet, easy to repair and very small. A small 1400 watt generator running on propane keeps the entire system running during power outages.
I wonder how this heat pump would compare to using a heat pump water heater that would also cool a pantry? Also wish you had touched on floor cooling
Does any radiant system have a thermal paste that would aid in conduction between the PEX line and the aluminum top panel? I'm thinking something that you would lay down a bead of paste in each grove before inserting the PEX line to create a better mating surface between them.
Great, now we need a similar cooling system.
Very cool stuff.
Can you put tiles on top warmboard applications or only laminate or hardwood only
Oh my goodness this is the best
HVAC heat pumps are getting better. 2015 at Colorado School of Mines, geothermal heat pumps installed in many federal and state gov buildings. We call them heat dump and cost more on energy and 8 times on labor and materials. Now, as for SpacePak, air to water for any project is still not worth the cost investment. Heating and cooling using all today's technology isn't good enough to brag about! I'm inventing designing creating away to have HVAC interlinking with solar drain back system that takes 15 amps only to heat up domestic hot water and also heats the building that's #1 renewable energy known. Solar drain back systems in summer can create cooling HVAC systems electrical power consumption by 1/2 or more depending on sunny days per year. After I patent protecting this new way, devices. I'll be happy to show. Thank you!
Neillium Plumbing LLC. Colorado
I typically use free standing wood stove. How would this be incorporated into this system as a retrofit to a 1904 home in Utah? I'm getting ready to install an isolated hot water tank~200ga heated by the stove with pump .
I'm sitting in my $1.5m house that is always too hot or too cold. It's impossible to have it warm on the ground floor and not overtemp the top floor rooms. This system reminds me of all the European homes I've been and never was it too cold or too hot. Radiant heating is the way to go.
Great interview. I served on a nuclear submarine and spent many a hour tracing and working on "boiler room" systems. Your right, because of the number of systems that are placed in a small amount of space it gets difficult. I'm now working on my own DIY HVAC installation and simplicity, energy efficiency, and cost are primary concerns. I didn't hear about cooling. I assume that Warm Board is only used for heating, while Space Pak does both heating and cooling. It would have been nice to get more information about the cooling options.
@James Karrie the Spacepak can do cooling as well, but separate fan coil units need to be installed, ducted etc. Once that’s done and you realize the fan coils can also heat the house, the huge expense of the heated floor becomes unnecessary.
@James Karrie it might, but as soon as your Dewpoint exceeds 50 degrees you’ll be condensing water on (and in) your floor. Dewpoint tracking and compensation is important with radiant cooling, as is dedicated dehumidification.
Warmboard can be used for cooling as well. I'm currently building an infloor radiant heating and cooling home using the warmboard panels.
@@moreycarpentry is the cooling function Engineered and supported by Warmboard? I.E. is it part of their guaranteed design and supported with load calculations?
What are you using for control of water temperature, humidity and dewpoint tracking? Where is the house located? Is it a very dry climate?
@@superspeeder I'm just using them for their panels but they did design the heating portion for me. I've contracted Arctic Heat Pumps to take care of my cooling side. They are doing the design and supplying the equipment. Warmboard referred me to them. They are a Canadian company and I'm in Ontario. It isn't dry here, actually quite humid. I'll be using a whole house dehumidifier with an ERV. Or at least start with just an ERV and go from there. Artic Heat Pumps also manage the dew point with a sensor, if my dehumidifier stops working for example, their system will introduce warmed water into the floor to never allow it to reach the dew point.
Can you put tile over the warm board?
Wondering if it works ok with ceramic tile flooring?
Any solar thermal component to these warm board system ???
Thanks for awesome videos.
Very nice
WOW! this guy is good!! U should have him on just to pick his brain and comment on your builds.
Do you let the temp go down at night? Or do you have to keep the temp constant?
Can the air to water heatpump system be married up to existing hot water radiator systems in older homes and have the gas boiler used as a backup?
Cool system. When money is not a problem, this is the way I'm going, maybe combined with a CERV2. Fresh warm air, cozy floors, sounds great to me. :+ )
Could you use Steller Innovations flooring over Warmboard. No worries with nail penetration or glueing.
I’m n the Summer can you run cold water through the floor? Would it cool the house at all?
My greatest concern is the lack of air circulation. How do you eliminate alergens in a house that has a minimum of supply air - more specifically no HEPA filter on a central air handling unit.
As for Matt's new home, have you checked the power consumption on your various appliances? Given how tight and well insulated the new house is, one should have seen a reduction in the power consumption. Regards.
I wonder if I would be able to have this system installed in a modular home when they are building it in the warehouse?
Does Spacpak have a soft start for solar system?
When you combine passive solar heating in a radiant floor heated room
Thermal Mass is key
Plywood with a thin aluminum veneer is not a thermal mass. Masonry, concrete, cement board thick tile. Terrazzo. All have mass to Absorb and retain Way more efficient. Also the best conductivity happens when the tubing is copper not plastic.
Great video! Can you do a follow up video on *cooling* systems (e.g., air conditioning) that you might couple with radiant heating? IMHO having two systems is difficult to justify from a cost standpoint. Several years ago you made a video on radiant *cooling* systems that was really interesting but I've not seen much since.
Agreed! Some of live in areas that get below freezing in the winters, but also reach triple digits in the summers. 😁
I have a friend with an off-grid solar house with in-floor heating and cooling. One issue was that they’d get condensation on the floor when running the cool water. A regular a/c has a place for condensate- in this case you don’t. So just a complication that needs to be addressed with dehumidifiers.
Mini splits are perfect for climates that need both heating and cooling. Some Japanese made units easily output 18,000 btu while having heating SCOPs of over 5! And some new ones can get DC connection to Solar Panels with no need of inverter or connection to the grid. This is big with prices of solar panels @ $0.3-0.5 per watt.
@@TimGGleason Running cold water through the floor is a bad idea. The correct way to cool with a heat pump is to have fan-coil units mounted high on the room walls (like a regular AC split system) so that the cold air they produce can be directed across the whole of the room and then descend. (Hot air rises, cold air wants to do the opposite!)
@@tlangdon12 the panel the original comment was talking about is a cooling panel system mounted to the ceiling
Need this product for next project
you know the cost?
@@neckofthewoods24 nope.
can this be used with a floating floor?
Sounds awesome for quality, but what other systems are comparable as far as quality goes and easy to install that stack up to warmboard. My wife and I were blown away by the price for a system for our home. Really like what they offer but trying to figure out why they need such a HUGE DELTA on their pricing vs any competitor. We are starting construction this Spring and are building a ICF house with slab on grade construction all on one level.
What if you get a leak in either water or refrigerant? How do you detect it and fix it?
Doesn't the slab work kinda like a heat battery? Once heated stays warm for a long time while taking less effort to maintain heat?
I wonder if the water can be preheated and the heat pump would then not need to heat as much. I am thinking hot water solar tubes or even a wood boiler for certain locations.
Ever do a test where you install this in a mini sunroom for winter, and summer you use it for shade?
smart designs
Love these deep dives! Eyeing a new system next year once those tax credits really kick in so this video is super timely.
This is unfortunately more of an infomercial than a deep dive.
@@nieldcreek2098 Wow! I respectfully disagree. He presented and explained the physics to show exactly how and why their system works better than other systems. It's a very simple idea but the details to implement are necessary to optimize for low temperature water and even distribution.
@@CycleWerkz I understand your point, but I just can’t help but think that there are other manufacturers, distributors, contractors and installers out there that if given the opportunity to discuss at their table would also offer equivalent and/or superior options at a similar if not even a better price point than these gentlemen. I’m not suggesting that the info wasn’t informative, simply that it was conveyed in a way that really tends to suggest to the audience that what they have to offer is the only viable option. Meaning “buy our equipment”, more than hey here’s some info for our viewers so that they can be better informed of all options. That is the trouble with many sponsored videos. Is sponsorship bad? no. but can it be abused in the way it is presented? Absolutely. In general I have liked Matts’ videos for several years, but in the last year I have seen a real shift to the sponsorship being number one priority. It may be good for his pocket book but it’s not as good as it used to be for his subscribers.
@@nieldcreek2098 Agreed. I inferred a bit differently.
I don't want to dismiss too quickly just because it's sponsored. But it would normally shift my bias. He explained the physics, material selection, and design considerations which helped me understand the product.
He did show exactly why he believes his system is best with good explanations. I think the delta T required to maintain temp in a sealed room would be a good objective measure. There are many other issues to consider but this one measure would reveal relative efficiency and subsequent heat pump performance requirements.
The benefits I caught;
Labor time/cost reduction where applicable.
Lower hot water input temperature.
Aluminum alloy heat distribution plate and pipe coupling design.
Decades of product evolution.
I agree there are likely other competitive systems out there. He gave us all this information to fully vet those systems against his.
@@CycleWerkz thanks for the cordial comments. UA-cam, for me, can be a love/hate experience but in the end It’s definitely nice to learn and expand my understanding of different subjects through UA-cam. … now if there was only a simple way to weed out all the garbage in between.
Ever put the warm board & heatpump system on walls, instead of floors? (Low ceiling tract houses can’t lose more floor height from the warm board)
Or, on ceilings as well as floors, for cooling in summer?
I have lived in a home in europe with radiant flooring. It was nice and the lack of sound was noticeable when I moved back to the states. Every time I see something new on radiant flooring I get excited and then reality kicks in. When I build my ICF toe-tag house, I am not going to pay for two different systems for heating and cooling. I am not dropping 30K on a hydronic heating system to turn around and drop another 15K on a cooling system.
My body temp needs fluctuates. Some days I feel the need to be warmer and some days cooler. Plus the spouse's hot flashes makes the set and forget house temperature null and void. The ever changing demands on "personal" comfort doesn't work with a slow changing floor system. Need that instant gratification from a forced air system / fireplace.
Is the warm board available in canada?
Probably not, they usually 100 years behind
It is, I called them, they are in BC. Unless you want to completely renovate your place, the cost of this and payback of any savings would take decades. And then of course their install isnt the cost of replacing all of your flooring, etc. Its supposed to replace your current HVAC, but how does it replace your AC? Since most homes with AC now have the usual HVAC ducts and the furnace fan blows it around. If you get rid of your furnace, whats blowing the air around? I mean if someone wants to explain that to me Id love to hear the answer
Good to see these heat pumps are reversible - nothing else really makes sense in the modern world - different markets may "choose" - or enforce - no reverse cycle for heating subsidies. (heating in cold climates really should have an option of ground source.)
2:50 the original source of that quote / what it's based on is from Frank B. Gilbreth Sr in 1920.
What happens when the power goes out for hours will the system freeze?
Ive radiant infloor throughout my house and I love it. No regrets. But - yes I needed mechanical ventilation both to meet building code and for AC. It is nice / critical to circulate air depending on the tightness of your house. Point #1. With infloor the challenge is winter humidification which isn't particular effective without using warm air from a furnace which then competes with the infloor. Solutions like steam infection present their own problems. Perhaps there is another solution..... Point #2. I have a Spacepak system and I simply would not recommend it unless your building requires it due to space constraints (my house is 100 yrs old).. The high velocity pipes are very noisy and the airflow projects like a fan into the room. Terry (the WB CEO) emphasizes the luxurious silence of the infloor but Spacepak is anything but. In my view, Warmboard is at its best in new construction and they have joined forces with Spacepak which is best used in retrofits. I presume Spacepak has a great heat pump system which drove WB's choice but I would be very cautious about installing in a high end build with its SDHV air handling.
you are right about the need for humidification in the winter. We use Warmboard/Lochinvar/Tekmar for our primary household heating in the winter. The air can be dry if it is cold outside, so I installed an indoor decorative waterfall. The one I use is by Humidifall but they are no longer in business. It runs 24/7 with a recirculating pump and a water filter/sanitizing/heating system that replaces the water daily (equivalent to one toilet flush per day). People visiting the house think we have an interesting artistic alcove, but little do they know that it is actually a household humidifier system that has the added benefit of dust/pollen removal (moving water extracts dust/pollen from the air and the filter/flush components of the Humidifall get that stuff out of the house.) Too bad Humidifall went out of business....
Can you lay counterflow pipe pattern??
Hardwood application makes sense... how do you put carpet over those tubes so you don't feel it? I'm guessing you need to add sheet goods over it and now the tubes are hidden.