I watched soldiers repeatedly attempt to load a magazine into their M16/M4 rifles backwards or upside down at the range during quick fire training. I can definitely see your point about loading this improperly under stress.
@@Zapp_Brannag1n well besides MA's and GM's normal squids dont really go hands on with firearms. Maybe if they brought back the blue jacket battalions it would be different. But generally not needed for most rates.
This kind of thing is one of the reasons some older military bolt actions have magazines that will prevent you from closing the bolt when they're empty. The cacophony of battle, when combined with stress, makes it possible for a soldier to potentially work the bolt and "fire" an empty rifle without realizing it for some time.
@@trifidhm for shooting, yeah, but just about every topsider I met (barring those who loaded it backwards) had to carry one for watchstanding. You'd think they'd figure it out lol
It would, unironically, be safer to decock the gun while out of battery, because the out of battery safety would prevent an accidental discharge...but that means you're intentionally pulling the trigger on a cartridge out of battery...
Chinese mystery pistols have always been a thing. It's thought that they were originally made three thousand years ago as purely ceremonial objects and that inventors many centuries later copied their ergonomics for use as firearms.
A lot of the Afghan Khyber Pass guns have markings like that from people that had the stamps, and saw a gun before, but was copying words they didn't understand from memory.
Aesthetics are more important than many people realize. Function over form as a general rule but given the choice between 2 functionally similar objects the more visually appealing choice is the answer for most. Oddball weirdos might choose the ugly but who cares about those freaks, am I right? Jk hug an ugly gun for gun Jesus & stay safe yall
A way to help with the problem with the extractor would be dip the channel where the cartridge went in (so when dropped in the rifle the cartridge will naturally be dipped slightly nose up so when pushed forward it will be gently brought up to lock in with the extractor)
That's exactly what I thought. Just have the cartridge drop in so that the extractor will easily clear the rim and as you push the bolt forward the rim will be forced up and into the extractor. In fact, it's so easy a solution that I'm wondering if they didn't actually do that but Ian didn't notice it because he didn't have a cartridge to test it with. Just the thought of having to manually lever the round in to have the extractor grab the rim seems so utterly terrible that I would expect any halfway clever designer (which this guy kinda seems to be) to come up with a solution for that.
@@beavisbutt-headson3223 That's a good darn solution. I thought of adding a little pin at the base of the lock so when you round it throws the cartridge of for you. Also thought of quiting the cocking trigger, it's unnecessary
The bolt handle tension adjustment is godfather to the Bren-Ten's most-tactical mag drop adjustment screw. "Who's the most tactical? Why I'm the most tactical. What's your bolt handle tension adjusted to? Four pounds? Pffft! Plebian. You gotta get those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers" Proof there's a fine line between innovation and needless overcomplication.
Someone needs to go through his videos noting all the times he says that so he's got a list to go over. It would help ensure continued content even during lockdown.
This sort of thing is still as worthwhile to see as successful examples. Why we do things a certain way is one subject but often missing the context of why we don't do them a different way which helps create a more complete picture. Thanks again.
Nice video. I know that it has some design and safety issues for the modern user but its a beautifully clean and sleek looking firearm; very elegant. By the way that noise it makes when you pull the bolt out at 2.27 is one of those ASMR noises I could listen to all day.
"I wish this bolt was easier/harder to open. Said no one ever." I beg to differ sir. I most certainly have said that I wish the bolt on my Mosin-Nagant was easier to open
In 1870 in the UK they tested a van Choate and a CHASSEPOT (amongst other guns) against a no-doubt pretty useless "portable mantlet" - a steel shield on wheels. The chassepot didn't make a dent, the Van Choate cracked the shield a bit but that was a lucky shot on a thin part of the device (London Evening Standard 30 August 1870). Mr. Van Choate seems to have been reasonably prosperous in the 1870s thanks to income from patents relating to telegraphy, and a job with the American Cable Company.
I think some of the people that declare a want for a 'lighter bolt' actually just want a 'smoother bolt', and are unsure of how to properly vocalize it. A bolt that opens/closes smoothly feels way lighter than a gritty feeling bolt, even when they actually require the same force to open/close.
Idk why this rifle reminds me a bit the french Chassepot 1866. We need a first person shooter on the 1850's to the beggining of the 20th century (until 1914, would be great). I would simply love tonplay with thoose old bolt-action rifles.
@@tomalong99 if that's the case, yeah it does, plus the fact that Forgotten Weapons had deliberately not monetized. My only other thought is that they have monetized during the covid-19 pandemic to help keep themselves afloat, which I can totally understand.
So this was the franklin armory of the 1870’s? At least the second trigger doesn’t activate the high intensity light/laser that’s mounted to the forearm....
I mean the simplest way to make the Loading easier is to have the bottom of the loading well a ramp so the rim is sitting below the extractor and as it is chambered it lines up with the bore and completely eliminates the issue of the extractor in loading
If the bolt and reciever have different alloys or heat treatments then the materials would expand and contract at different rates in hot and cold, so adjusting the tension on the bolt to accomidate for any slop seems like a pretty good idea to me
The person in charge of selecting stock blanks dropped the ball, at least on #36. The next round of 45-70 is highly likely to be the one that takes off the right side of your face. I stared at that crack through the whole video and was really surprised that it didn’t get a witty mention. But it’s a good vid on a bad rifle. 😎👍👏
That fixed extractor.... Could it work with a magazine? if a mag fed in the right direction it would be able to catch the cartrige rim. I wonder if that's been attempted. and likely it has so I wonder just how badly it worked.
Wouldn't that fixed extractor work if the lower part would be a slight ramp, so if you drop a round in the rim would be below the extractor. If you push that into the chamber it would rise up on the bolt face and the extractor could catch that.
I agree the bolt tension thing is goofy but if the rifle had been designed with a proper extractor, it would have been a good idea. It would be faster to operate than the 1873 trapdoor. The hammer cocking trigger would afford the ability to cock and attempt to fire again, after a malfunction from too hard of a primer. I mean these are trial rifles and are built to test a design. The design is sound. It just needed a few things like a proper extractor and a safety. How many design changes occurred to 'rough designs' that resulted in iconic weapons? The 1911, M1 Garand, M1 carbine, etc... Great video! Take Care and be safe, John
Marlin was purchased by Remington..... who then took like 2 years to figure out how to make lever action rifles they would have the barrels canted to the side.... so the front sight wasnt "in-line" with the rear sights.... quality control issues.... EX. having burs on the feed ramp so large you could not chamber a round.... ive got a Marlin 336 from the last year of "actual marlin made" rifles..... and the quality is great accurate, smooth, nice finish, great trigger and then looking at my cousins 336, a 2010 model..... its like a kar98k VS a 91/30....
I have a theory on that bolt handle tension adjustment. Considering that this is from a time when bolt actions were actually quite unusual and uncommon, perhaps some users might have been lacking in trust of their ability to remain fully locked and in battery under things such as combat conditions. Clearly from just the demonstration here, with the hammer cocked, there is not much resistance to being opened in this system, and that might have been a point of concern to the 19th century user. I suspect that it was likely a response to just such a concern that prompted that particular feature's development. Thinking about it more, many rifles of the period tend to have some sort of spring tension or detent to hold them closed and these tend to give a tactile and audible 'snap' that would be very reassuring to someone that was very concerned about a rifle's action remaining in battery. Examples that come to mind are the Remingon rolling block, the various Sharps rifles, and various others. It also seems to me that early versions of the Springfield 'Trapdoor'/Allin conversion action lacked a spring to hold the locking piece closed and it was added to later versions of the design. They wouldn't go adding something like that if it wasn't considered useful, so I'm thinking that my theory about concerns over staying locked in battery might just have something to it.
I stand corrected, but this is the first bolt-action rifle (albeit a single-shot) that I know of that is hammer-fired. All modern bolt-actions today are striker-fired, to my knowledge.
@@stevepirie8130 mine doesn't give me much trouble unless it's very dirty, but I've encountered some which are very, very difficult to operate. My friend has one, and you'll stop shooting because your hand hurts from slapping the bolt long before your shoulder gets sore.
This rifle looks like it has so much potential. If it only had a spring extractor and gotten rid off that cocking trigger. Us would have been leagues ahead of the small arms game.
Could the bottom of the receiver not be angled downward slightly to allow a round to be dropped in front of the bolt and then fed slightly upward underneath the extractor?
I'm wondering now if the adjustable bolt tensioner is a response to problems with the bolt not staying properly in battery on this or some other early bolt action Van Choate had worked with?
Nice rifle. I understand this is a trials gun but I can see that screw on top of the bolt taking a lot of abuse as it repeatedly strikes the receiver over its service life.
A good example of Post War development of new technology but, at the lowest cost possible. We now have a small bore (45) full power (70ish), center fire, cartridge development, what are we going to shoot them in? Not most of the Civil War receivers. Add to that, many of the professional army officers of the time were very much into what the European armies were developing and you want to please them? It would be nice to find more documents to know more.
How deep is the feed tray? I suspect that, for some cartridges, it could be made so that the round being fed falls below the extractor and then slides up into it (kind of like a Mauser) as it's chambered. Even so, I could see that as a system prone to not being operated correctly.
It's kind-of strange that there is a great big honkin' screw in the top of the bolt and it only seems to stop the bolt being pulled out the back of the receiver, rather than also holding a spring (or spring-loaded) extractor in place. I suppose it is easier to criticise some-one else's work (especially 149 years later), but that's what leaps out at me.
I was just wondering if someone has the answer to the following questions : Why put the extractor on top of the bolt assembly? Is there any mechanical advantage to do so? It seems to me (and I'm far from being a specialist) that to have the extractor below would not change much regarding manufacturing -- except that you'd have to cut a groove to accomodate it -- but much regarding handling of the gun, since you would not have to bend your cartridge to make sure it fits into the extractor prior to close the bolt, but could simply drop it onto the extractor, so to say, and then close. It also seems to me that it would make much easier any dealing with a faillure to feed for you would ot have the extractor in the way (though it's quinte small). Thanks to those who took the time to read that, and maybe answer it.
It seems to me that it would have been easier to form the bolt with a separate extractor rather than (and I’m just guessing here) hand finishing the rigid extractor. Also as they have put the bolt retainer screw right there it seems like that would be the obvious retainer for an extractor.
Ian, it looks like the new table cover does not play nicely with UA-cam's compression. There's quite a few compression artefacts, and as a result the image looks less sharp than before...
This is exactly how new technologies are being invented in IT sector nowadays. Some has "great" idea how to "improve" things, and they almost always come up with something similar to this rifle. The only difference is, that these new technologies are being actually adopted in IT, because they are "cool".
I wonder if that's meant to be an inertial firing pin? Could be that it won't come out the bolt face because you can't hit it hard enough without dropping the hammer. That decocking method is no different than a 1911...
I saw one of these in a gun magazine many many years ago, and I wondered *why* for the love of Dog this sort of bolt-action design lost out to the monstrosity that is the 'trapdoor' design. It would seem that turning a receiver like this on a lathe would be *so* much easier than all the complicated cuts needed to make a 'trapdoor', and would be a far stronger result. The 1871 Mauser seems to constitute an existence proof that bolt actions were decent ideas, even in the era of single-shot guns. I do now realize that the trapdoor design has some advantages (keeps the existing hammer location for instance), and without James Paris Lee and the box magazine the bolt action is far from an obvious good idea. Still, with some minor refinements this van Choate rifle looks like it could have had some real potential and would have given the US military a more advanced rifle sooner.
So if it takes a proprietary cartridge, and based on the dearth of info on said proprietary cartridge, could that have some bearing on the seemingly inconvenient loading process which Ian deems makes it a somewhat lousy design? Maybe it had a purposely week rim that would, in theory, collapse under locking pressure and "pop" back up upon firing pressure? Far fetched, but without more specifics on the intended cartridge we really don't know. Because that seems like a glaring negative for a product that somebody felt had enough potential to be fairly heavily invested in and entered into military trials.
Now I wonder if anyone ever considered a fixed extractor afterwards, because not being easily able to drop a cartridge isn't nearly as important an issue in a magazine-fed rifle, it would only need some method to lift the cartridge at the right moment
This rifle is ALMOST feasible, if the extractor was moved to the underside of the bolt, or just given a spring. And if the safety was just a trigger lock this could be really nice?
Greetings from Newburyport! I work a few buildings down from the old factory. It's now offices: 260 Merrimac St, Newburyport, MA. The town was home to many ship captains in the 18th and 19th centuries, Brown being one of them and there is still a square named after him. If the locals ever realized guns were made in town, they would probably move. About the most left leaning group of people you will find.
A slight subject change here, who ever you had working the camera in your early videos was not........... . Is there any chance you would consider remaking those with a little better camera work. As always your commentary and knowledge makes these worth watching. Thanks.
Would it not have been possible to cut a shallow "feed ramp" in the bolt way at a point below the extractor at full bolt retraction? Providing the cut was deep enough, the rim would be below the extractor claw, but not engaged. As the bolt was moved forward the base of the cartridge would ride up the bolt face and under the extractor, as in the Mauser or Lee-Enfield controled feed. Bit late, realyl, I suppose.
The (repaired?) crack in the wrist of the stock points to a flaw in the design. It's impossible to properly align the grain to resist the recoil throughout the huge length of the stock. Isn't hindsight perfect?
If Mr. Van Choate would have scratched his head a little bit more he could have invented the box magazine which would work just fine with that fixed extractor of his. The same goes for an underbarrel tube magazine.
I think that extractor could´ve worked better if he put it on the bottom, or on the side. If you manually have to drop or pull the cartridge out anyway, might as well just have that thing there for the purpose of uncorking your seized up, black powder fouled brass.
I watched soldiers repeatedly attempt to load a magazine into their M16/M4 rifles backwards or upside down at the range during quick fire training. I can definitely see your point about loading this improperly under stress.
i have heard about muzzle loaders that have been found with sometimes even 6 charges and bullets in them.. people do strange things under stress..
To be fair, I've seen sailors put magazines in upside down or backwards normally too lol
@@Zapp_Brannag1n well besides MA's and GM's normal squids dont really go hands on with firearms. Maybe if they brought back the blue jacket battalions it would be different. But generally not needed for most rates.
This kind of thing is one of the reasons some older military bolt actions have magazines that will prevent you from closing the bolt when they're empty. The cacophony of battle, when combined with stress, makes it possible for a soldier to potentially work the bolt and "fire" an empty rifle without realizing it for some time.
@@trifidhm for shooting, yeah, but just about every topsider I met (barring those who loaded it backwards) had to carry one for watchstanding. You'd think they'd figure it out lol
"I've had an idea..."
"A good idea?"
"No, just an idea..."
I've got that merit badge.
But it is a good-looking idea.
Possible first iRifle?
It wasn't a Bad idea.
Idea fairy strikes again
"To make the rifle safe, fire it-but slowly"
It would, unironically, be safer to decock the gun while out of battery, because the out of battery safety would prevent an accidental discharge...but that means you're intentionally pulling the trigger on a cartridge out of battery...
"BBROWNMMECECoNNEWBURYPORT MASS." This rifle had Chinese Mystery Pistol markings before Chinese Mystery Pistols were a thing.
Chinese mystery pistols have always been a thing. It's thought that they were originally made three thousand years ago as purely ceremonial objects and that inventors many centuries later copied their ergonomics for use as firearms.
BREVETBREVETBREVET
A lot of the Afghan Khyber Pass guns have markings like that from people that had the stamps, and saw a gun before, but was copying words they didn't understand from memory.
With a spring loaded extractor and a standard round this gun is a gem!
According to cartridges of the world, vanchotes 45-70 was a standard round, just with a lighter bullet
A good guess might be they figured on making a lot of money selling ammo with the number of rounds inevitably lost/damaged due to that extractor. 😆
I watch Ian's vids partly because of gun aesthetics... got to say this is a smooth uncomplicated pleasant object artistically speaking.
Yeah but it is not as such mechanically.
very European looking to my eyes
Aesthetics are more important than many people realize. Function over form as a general rule but given the choice between 2 functionally similar objects the more visually appealing choice is the answer for most. Oddball weirdos might choose the ugly but who cares about those freaks, am I right? Jk hug an ugly gun for gun Jesus & stay safe yall
A way to help with the problem with the extractor would be dip the channel where the cartridge went in (so when dropped in the rifle the cartridge will naturally be dipped slightly nose up so when pushed forward it will be gently brought up to lock in with the extractor)
That's exactly what I thought. Just have the cartridge drop in so that the extractor will easily clear the rim and as you push the bolt forward the rim will be forced up and into the extractor. In fact, it's so easy a solution that I'm wondering if they didn't actually do that but Ian didn't notice it because he didn't have a cartridge to test it with. Just the thought of having to manually lever the round in to have the extractor grab the rim seems so utterly terrible that I would expect any halfway clever designer (which this guy kinda seems to be) to come up with a solution for that.
@@beavisbutt-headson3223 That's a good darn solution. I thought of adding a little pin at the base of the lock so when you round it throws the cartridge of for you. Also thought of quiting the cocking trigger, it's unnecessary
-What's your name, sir?
-Shot. One Shot.
A guy with a name like this was destined to be a gun-maker
You should meet my cousin Grape
A single-shot gun maker at that :)
The bolt handle tension adjustment is godfather to the Bren-Ten's most-tactical mag drop adjustment screw.
"Who's the most tactical? Why I'm the most tactical. What's your bolt handle tension adjusted to? Four pounds? Pffft! Plebian. You gotta get those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers"
Proof there's a fine line between innovation and needless overcomplication.
Being called Brown/Van Chocolate would make this 1000x more interesting.
I was going to say the same thing. that's what I thought it was called when I first glanced at it lol
All I see is "brown chocolate" when reading the title
Who else hates it when Ian says "but that's a subject for a whole nother video", but he hasn't made the video >:[
Someone needs to go through his videos noting all the times he says that so he's got a list to go over. It would help ensure continued content even during lockdown.
Not me! It just ensures me he is still committed to weaving his craft for us all to observe! Unfortunately, Nothing last forever....
lets be honest its just a convenient cop out, since no one is sponsoring arms history videos only these auction infomercials
"Lighter bolt". Said no one ever... Mosin owners might disagree :P
This sort of thing is still as worthwhile to see as successful examples. Why we do things a certain way is one subject but often missing the context of why we don't do them a different way which helps create a more complete picture. Thanks again.
"This gun was different but ultimately useless... If that sounds like you... "
Ouch.
if he had made it with a sprung extractor that also worked as the bolt stop, it would have been both still simple and better.
or use the bolt stop screw to hold the extractor spring in place, somehow
@@moosemaimer ...a bolt with it's own bolt
@@moosemaimer My thoughts exactly. It wouldn't have even been difficult to convert this. Just mill a slot where the current extractor is.
149 years of hindsight has nothing to do with that, of course. 😉
Nice video. I know that it has some design and safety issues for the modern user but its a beautifully clean and sleek looking firearm; very elegant.
By the way that noise it makes when you pull the bolt out at 2.27 is one of those ASMR noises I could listen to all day.
"I wish my bolt handle was slightly less difficult to open - said nobody ever" except every mosin-nagant owner, ever
That extractor could easily have been modified to be a spring steel one. The bolt retaining screw could have also retained it.
You could have helped this guy out 155 years ago.
It shouldn't have been the only retaining element though. Maybe slide into a dovetail and then secure with the retaining screw?
Awesome! Thanks, Ian. Stay safe!!!
Didn't even know that they even tried an internal hammer that early
Thank You , Ian .
Could the adjustable bolt handle be side effect or manufacture turned feature or possibly tension firing pin for softer or harder primers
If that gun's extractor was a seperate flat spring held in place by the screw, it might have worked.
"I wish this bolt was easier/harder to open. Said no one ever." I beg to differ sir. I most certainly have said that I wish the bolt on my Mosin-Nagant was easier to open
All improvement requires change, not all change produces improvement.
In 1870 in the UK they tested a van Choate and a CHASSEPOT (amongst other guns) against a no-doubt pretty useless "portable mantlet" - a steel shield on wheels. The chassepot didn't make a dent, the Van Choate cracked the shield a bit but that was a lucky shot on a thin part of the device (London Evening Standard 30 August 1870). Mr. Van Choate seems to have been reasonably prosperous in the 1870s thanks to income from patents relating to telegraphy, and a job with the American Cable Company.
A sleek and nice looking rifle for its time.
Ian mentioned that Marlin has been bought by someone else, but didn't say who. Marlin has been bought by Freedom Group in case anyone was wondering.
I think some of the people that declare a want for a 'lighter bolt' actually just want a 'smoother bolt', and are unsure of how to properly vocalize it. A bolt that opens/closes smoothly feels way lighter than a gritty feeling bolt, even when they actually require the same force to open/close.
Thank you for pronouncing Worcester correctly 🤣🤣
i thought it was called van chocolate for some reason, i want a chocolate rifle
nope :p
Imagine if Willy Wonka started doing firearms. Well, he had TVs, so...
Would have to be very low pressure.
Load it with licorice bullets
Brownie van Chocolate
never seen that, but I have seen little ammo cans full of chocolate cartridges
Could have used that screw/bolt stop to hold a simple extracter on no? Don't think it would make things that complicated
Idk why this rifle reminds me a bit the french Chassepot 1866.
We need a first person shooter on the 1850's to the beggining of the 20th century (until 1914, would be great). I would simply love tonplay with thoose old bolt-action rifles.
We there is War of Rights. ua-cam.com/users/WarOfRightsOfficial But it is just 1862.
Hunt: Showdown Kind off
Cheers, great video ian keep it up!
Ian: "To fire this thing first you must..."
Me: Throw it in to a river and find a better gun.
Is forgotten weapons monetized now? I've been getting ads on the videos recently, is anyone else getting them?
I haven't yet
I get adverts as well but I don't think Forgotten Weapons gets any revenue which kind of makes a mockery of UA-cam's argument.
@@tomalong99 if that's the case, yeah it does, plus the fact that Forgotten Weapons had deliberately not monetized. My only other thought is that they have monetized during the covid-19 pandemic to help keep themselves afloat, which I can totally understand.
FW is monetized, always was. InRangeTV is the one that was voluntary demonetized by Karl, short after YT started its tirade against gun channels.
Collin Culberson Forgotten Weapons has always been monetized to my knowledge, it’s InRange that shut it off.
So this was the franklin armory of the 1870’s? At least the second trigger doesn’t activate the high intensity light/laser that’s mounted to the forearm....
That is one beautiful weapon.
I mean the simplest way to make the Loading easier is to have the bottom of the loading well a ramp so the rim is sitting below the extractor and as it is chambered it lines up with the bore and completely eliminates the issue of the extractor in loading
19th century US military trials have such a bottomless pool of weird and obscure rifles to show off that they might collectively qualify as an SCP.
These mid-19th century, single shot breechloaders are so svelte and elegant.
Very interesting Rifle. Thanks for showing this unique Rifle , Gun Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If the bolt and reciever have different alloys or heat treatments then the materials would expand and contract at different rates in hot and cold, so adjusting the tension on the bolt to accomidate for any slop seems like a pretty good idea to me
The person in charge of selecting stock blanks dropped the ball, at least on #36. The next round of 45-70 is highly likely to be the one that takes off the right side of your face. I stared at that crack through the whole video and was really surprised that it didn’t get a witty mention. But it’s a good vid on a bad rifle. 😎👍👏
If this have had a magazine it would have been a slick set up for its day.
Me: Hammer-fired bolt actions are so steampunkishly cool!
Also me: But not this one.
Logically designed or not, that is a beautiful rifle, long lines and appears to be well crafted.
That fixed extractor.... Could it work with a magazine? if a mag fed in the right direction it would be able to catch the cartrige rim.
I wonder if that's been attempted. and likely it has so I wonder just how badly it worked.
Wouldn't that fixed extractor work if the lower part would be a slight ramp, so if you drop a round in the rim would be below the extractor. If you push that into the chamber it would rise up on the bolt face and the extractor could catch that.
I agree the bolt tension thing is goofy but if the rifle had been designed with a proper extractor, it would have been a good idea.
It would be faster to operate than the 1873 trapdoor. The hammer cocking trigger would afford the ability to cock and attempt to fire again, after a malfunction from too hard of a primer.
I mean these are trial rifles and are built to test a design. The design is sound. It just needed a few things like a proper extractor and a safety. How many design changes occurred to 'rough designs' that resulted in iconic weapons? The 1911, M1 Garand, M1 carbine, etc...
Great video! Take Care and be safe, John
Marlin was purchased by Remington..... who then took like 2 years to figure out how to make lever action rifles
they would have the barrels canted to the side.... so the front sight wasnt "in-line" with the rear sights....
quality control issues.... EX. having burs on the feed ramp so large you could not chamber a round....
ive got a Marlin 336 from the last year of "actual marlin made" rifles..... and the quality is great
accurate, smooth, nice finish, great trigger
and then looking at my cousins 336, a 2010 model..... its like a kar98k VS a 91/30....
Oooh I'm early. I come here regularly for the history and engineering of these tools of war/protection
Wow, it's really surprising to see that he didn't just incorporate an extractor spring into the retention screw .
He would have, but the all the springs were being used to make the fixed magazines for that Italian light machine gun.
I have a theory on that bolt handle tension adjustment. Considering that this is from a time when bolt actions were actually quite unusual and uncommon, perhaps some users might have been lacking in trust of their ability to remain fully locked and in battery under things such as combat conditions. Clearly from just the demonstration here, with the hammer cocked, there is not much resistance to being opened in this system, and that might have been a point of concern to the 19th century user. I suspect that it was likely a response to just such a concern that prompted that particular feature's development.
Thinking about it more, many rifles of the period tend to have some sort of spring tension or detent to hold them closed and these tend to give a tactile and audible 'snap' that would be very reassuring to someone that was very concerned about a rifle's action remaining in battery. Examples that come to mind are the Remingon rolling block, the various Sharps rifles, and various others. It also seems to me that early versions of the Springfield 'Trapdoor'/Allin conversion action lacked a spring to hold the locking piece closed and it was added to later versions of the design. They wouldn't go adding something like that if it wasn't considered useful, so I'm thinking that my theory about concerns over staying locked in battery might just have something to it.
Il give it one thing. Its a smooth looking rifle. Just how round and not boxy it is appeals to me.
Wouldn't you also need to manually remove the spent cartridge or would pulling that bolt automatically flip it out?
There seems to be a fixed lug ejector near the internal hammer and a groove in the bolt to ride over it.
Wow this is looking good!
Interesting rifle. Beautiful patina.
I stand corrected, but this is the first bolt-action rifle (albeit a single-shot) that I know of that is hammer-fired. All modern bolt-actions today are striker-fired, to my knowledge.
I would take one of those fancy bolt opening adjustments on every mosin i’ve ever used!
Jason Flanders are they stiff bolts?
@@stevepirie8130 mine doesn't give me much trouble unless it's very dirty, but I've encountered some which are very, very difficult to operate. My friend has one, and you'll stop shooting because your hand hurts from slapping the bolt long before your shoulder gets sore.
@@comando293 You need to polish the striker cam and/or weaken the main spring. Did that and now my Mosin runs like a charm :)
This rifle looks like it has so much potential. If it only had a spring extractor and gotten rid off that cocking trigger. Us would have been leagues ahead of the small arms game.
is it just me, or should Ian start a series called “Thankfully forgotten weapons”?😂
Nice followup to the "Nonsense at ShotShow" video.
I swear I saw the title as "Brown Chocolate Trials Rifle" lol
That double trigger recocking mechanism shows up again on the Spencer 1882, albeit slightly modified.
Could the bottom of the receiver not be angled downward slightly to allow a round to be dropped in front of the bolt and then fed slightly upward underneath the extractor?
I'm wondering now if the adjustable bolt tensioner is a response to problems with the bolt not staying properly in battery on this or some other early bolt action Van Choate had worked with?
At 7:40 I spit my beer out of my nose.
Nice rifle.
I understand this is a trials gun but I can see that screw on top of the bolt taking a lot of abuse as it repeatedly strikes the receiver over its service life.
Yes, but its also very easy to replace with any screw, as long as it's the right thread.
A good example of Post War development of new technology but, at the lowest cost possible. We now have a small bore (45) full power (70ish), center fire, cartridge development, what are we going to shoot them in? Not most of the Civil War receivers. Add to that, many of the professional army officers of the time were very much into what the European armies were developing and you want to please them? It would be nice to find more documents to know more.
How deep is the feed tray? I suspect that, for some cartridges, it could be made so that the round being fed falls below the extractor and then slides up into it (kind of like a Mauser) as it's chambered. Even so, I could see that as a system prone to not being operated correctly.
I would love to see you review the Brown-Merrill bolt action conversion for the Enfield 1853
It's kind-of strange that there is a great big honkin' screw in the top of the bolt and it only seems to stop the bolt being pulled out the back of the receiver, rather than also holding a spring (or spring-loaded) extractor in place. I suppose it is easier to criticise some-one else's work (especially 149 years later), but that's what leaps out at me.
I was just wondering if someone has the answer to the following questions :
Why put the extractor on top of the bolt assembly? Is there any mechanical advantage to do so?
It seems to me (and I'm far from being a specialist) that to have the extractor below would not change much regarding manufacturing -- except that you'd have to cut a groove to accomodate it -- but much regarding handling of the gun, since you would not have to bend your cartridge to make sure it fits into the extractor prior to close the bolt, but could simply drop it onto the extractor, so to say, and then close. It also seems to me that it would make much easier any dealing with a faillure to feed for you would ot have the extractor in the way (though it's quinte small).
Thanks to those who took the time to read that, and maybe answer it.
@@tyrannosaurusimperator Very interesting! I did learn something, thanks!
It seems to me that it would have been easier to form the bolt with a separate extractor rather than (and I’m just guessing here) hand finishing the rigid extractor. Also as they have put the bolt retainer screw right there it seems like that would be the obvious retainer for an extractor.
Is the loading channel under the bolt not recessed enough for the extractor to clear the round as the bolt picks it up and chambers it?
Ian, it looks like the new table cover does not play nicely with UA-cam's compression. There's quite a few compression artefacts, and as a result the image looks less sharp than before...
Spring steel extractor, add a safety notch (at minimum)... seems like it would've been pretty decent for the time!
This is exactly how new technologies are being invented in IT sector nowadays. Some has "great" idea how to "improve" things, and they almost always come up with something similar to this rifle. The only difference is, that these new technologies are being actually adopted in IT, because they are "cool".
Anybody know why there is a hole at the bottom of the bolt screw's threaded hole? 2:26
I wonder if that's meant to be an inertial firing pin? Could be that it won't come out the bolt face because you can't hit it hard enough without dropping the hammer. That decocking method is no different than a 1911...
I saw one of these in a gun magazine many many years ago, and I wondered *why* for the love of Dog this sort of bolt-action design lost out to the monstrosity that is the 'trapdoor' design. It would seem that turning a receiver like this on a lathe would be *so* much easier than all the complicated cuts needed to make a 'trapdoor', and would be a far stronger result. The 1871 Mauser seems to constitute an existence proof that bolt actions were decent ideas, even in the era of single-shot guns.
I do now realize that the trapdoor design has some advantages (keeps the existing hammer location for instance), and without James Paris Lee and the box magazine the bolt action is far from an obvious good idea. Still, with some minor refinements this van Choate rifle looks like it could have had some real potential and would have given the US military a more advanced rifle sooner.
It looks nice
So if it takes a proprietary cartridge, and based on the dearth of info on said proprietary cartridge, could that have some bearing on the seemingly inconvenient loading process which Ian deems makes it a somewhat lousy design? Maybe it had a purposely week rim that would, in theory, collapse under locking pressure and "pop" back up upon firing pressure? Far fetched, but without more specifics on the intended cartridge we really don't know. Because that seems like a glaring negative for a product that somebody felt had enough potential to be fairly heavily invested in and entered into military trials.
Any time I see a single locking lug I wince, no one wants to catch a case of Mauser eye.
Now I wonder if anyone ever considered a fixed extractor afterwards, because not being easily able to drop a cartridge isn't nearly as important an issue in a magazine-fed rifle, it would only need some method to lift the cartridge at the right moment
I thought the name was van 'Chocolate' at first.
Still, a very cool rifle.
Could you do an Anzac Day special?
This rifle is ALMOST feasible, if the extractor was moved to the underside of the bolt, or just given a spring. And if the safety was just a trigger lock this could be really nice?
Greetings from Newburyport! I work a few buildings down from the old factory. It's now offices: 260 Merrimac St, Newburyport, MA. The town was home to many ship captains in the 18th and 19th centuries, Brown being one of them and there is still a square named after him. If the locals ever realized guns were made in town, they would probably move. About the most left leaning group of people you will find.
Its funny about the decocker. The directions for it could be interpreted as pull the trigger. Lol
Ads on content that youtube won't monetize (for the creator, at least), brilliant
A slight subject change here, who ever you had working the camera in your early videos was not........... . Is there any chance you would consider remaking those with a little better camera work. As always your commentary and knowledge makes these worth watching. Thanks.
it's the RTX of rifles... i wonder if they had the slogan "it just works"
Would it not have been possible to cut a shallow "feed ramp" in the bolt way at a point below the extractor at full bolt retraction? Providing the cut was deep enough, the rim would be below the extractor claw, but not engaged. As the bolt was moved forward the base of the cartridge would ride up the bolt face and under the extractor, as in the Mauser or Lee-Enfield controled feed. Bit late, realyl, I suppose.
The (repaired?) crack in the wrist of the stock points to a flaw in the design. It's impossible to properly align the grain to resist the recoil throughout the huge length of the stock. Isn't hindsight perfect?
If Mr. Van Choate would have scratched his head a little bit more he could have invented the box magazine which would work just fine with that fixed extractor of his. The same goes for an underbarrel tube magazine.
I think that extractor could´ve worked better if he put it on the bottom, or on the side. If you manually have to drop or pull the cartridge out anyway, might as well just have that thing there for the purpose of uncorking your seized up, black powder fouled brass.
isn't that kinda like the decock on the 1911, but instead of a secondary trigger, you hold the hammer?
Why would th be a safety issue to decock the hammer? Isn't that basically like any external hammer firearm?