This is all so wild. You’d think these “career” evangelicals would be happy to hear an academic as well-read and intellectually as consistent as Dr. Wolfe represent Christianity against the enemies of our Lord, but they are extremely afraid of this man, a man whose family he refers to as “the Wolfe pack?” If they could just take a step back they might see how ridiculous these attacks are, I get second-hand embarrassment from these weirdos. I makes young ppl like us think they have a compromised browser history? You know who we know does not? Dusty Devers. You can’t be brave unless you know the weapons of our enemies. But I’m just a kid.
The piety of “not caring about politics” is almost always disingenuous. and in fact those people are definitely political and are only adopting “not caring about politics” BECAUSE of their politics. Their political opinions are weakening and driving their Christianityz
How would you substantiate that to prove that you didn't just make a baseless assertion about an (apparently) large group of (assumedly) your siblings? I'm not saying it never happens, but making sweeping baseless assertions about an unnamed group of people that you assumedly share one faith and Spirit with (atleast some-Lord knows) is probably the second of '2 wrongs not making a right', at best
@@BrianMcLaughlin-ds2hcjust look at people like tim keller, david platt or matt chandler. Most times their “gospel centered” rhetoric just whitewashes their lefty political preferences as “biblical”. Just look at how chandler talks about race. This isnt hard to find
At first I thought they were just confused. Now I realize that they are not, but are actively misrepresenting, and I wish that were not so. Lord have mercy.
Before I listened to the video, I thought your comment was a little much, and then only briefly into DeYoung's talk, I realized you're completely right, and it's hilarious.
Congratulations on the channel, Stephen! You're on track to grow it quickly. I see so much interest in the CN movement, and increasing displeasure with the old guard of the big eva. group.
These pastors are very isolated-thinking in their positions in failing to see what their congregants do outside of building and either not equipping /disciplining them and what their people’s impact on those around them in their environment/ circle. Covid isolation and those looking for leadership during that tyrannical period is an example of the importance of looking outside the building/local church that caved. I for one looked online for leadership in the Christian sense bc it wasn’t evident locally and yet what are we seeing now??!!
Anyone from England or Uk in general, who largely agrees with Stephen, leave a comment. We need to start building communities over here like they are over there.
Please let me know if i'm summarizing this fairly: The Church is where Christians learn about God's Laws, ways the Gospel etc. and this is the first and highest good. Christians are to then take what they have learned and seek political power to implement laws that do not hinder them from living out those teachings. The goal isn't to force people to be Christians but rather to implement laws that don't hinder people from becoming Christian. The pastors job is to focus on reminding Christians to always seek the highest things first and keep the lesser goods in perspective. Pastor aren't responsible for political actions as this is the primary role of the congregation. The Church is the conscience of the State not the Crown to rule over it or it's slave to obey it. His critique of existing approaches is that they do not positively encourage Christians to seek out political power to overthrow unjust laws and implement just laws. They rely only on the witness of the Christian life on an individual level and have no unified, larger vision of a State that is just and rightly ordered toward the natural and spiritual good of it's citizens. I'm new to this discussion so I would like to ensure I'm understanding what he is saying clearly.
One would think that DeYoung, having once been accused (by Greg Thompson and Duke Kwon) of sharing white supremacy's "impulse" would be much more judicious in describing a movement, and its adherents, in terms of their impulses.
I completely agree with DeYoung. The means to fulfil God’s will on earth is ONLY through the church. The man in the cell, put there by tyrants for his faith, is more free than the man who is experiencing what you call “the complete good” whatever that is, because he is not suffering but basking in God’s common graces. If you think that the government is your brother in arms because it allows you to open your church or Christian school, you are sorely mistaken. The state is as corrupt as any other man- made edifice. Kevin DeYoung is putting it in its proper context in the life of a Christian. So-called Christians want to build the state because it helps them avoid being the hands and feet of Christ to people they want to avoid. It’s not the job of the state to help the church do anything and thinking that way is not only obfuscatory but dangerous. Kevin is making this clear and I agree. And mocking his voice is incredibly insolent and immature.
You are correct: mocking DeYoung is insolent and immature. It is also sinful; but so is attributing sinful motives to people, like you did: "So-called Christians want to build the state because it helps them avoid being the hands and feet of Christ to people they want to avoid." You have no idea .They would deny that. More importantly "being Christ's hands and feet" is a virtually meaningless concept, which you seem to be employing as a means of claiming the moral high ground. You should stop that.
@ I’m making no direct claims about anyone or myself. I do not know any of you people well enough to assume any motives. I wouldn’t say that I am morally superior in any way. Notice that I only directly addressed the mocking.
@@Claire5020GEN Yes, you did assume motives. Only by doing so could you have said this: "So-called Christians want to build the state because it helps them avoid being the hands and feet of Christ to people they want to avoid." That sort of claim is a claim about motives.
Kevin DeYoung could do a solid Kermit impression. Great video, I think the point about the church is the point. It is the conflation of church and kingdom which confuses the discussion. There must be a half dozen views on what is church and what is kingdom and in the pan-protestant/orthodox/catholic arena of X it's anybody's guess what the term "church" or "kingdom" entails. Or, "chosen people", but that's just funny.
This same thing is done by Jason DeRouchie in his recent book on the Old Testament. He criticizes theonomy and then throws Christian Nationalism in as basically the same thing and only cites Shenvi's review of TCCN to support his position, never interacting with Wolfe's natural law basis for his claims.
You nailed a major problem when discussing ambiguous use of the word "church". It's a way ministers intentionally or not add onto the consciences of laity things specific to themselves and their offices, whereas in truth the laity are free of these pre/proscriptions.
You know the excerpts I've seen in this video better to define a Christian duty to their Nation then all the other bloviating I've heard about Christian nationalism for the last 10 years. And I am deeply bothered that most of the people I've seen talking about your book and you seem to be misrepresenting it.
I don't even know if I will get a response, but this is posed to Dr. Wolfe and/or anyone who has any insight on what his position might be. What is your position on churches that elect to be tax exempt/non-profit tax status? If we know that the politics and popular culture are currently anti-Christian...anti-Christ in spirit, then should church's think twice about receiving the non-profit/religious exemption from the IRS?
I don’t know what Wolfe’s position is. But, it would not be financially feasible for the average church in America to keep operating legally if they had to pay taxes like other businesses. The vast majority would be forced to close. Philosophically / strategically, I don’t think taking advantage of the above benefits puts us in debt to the state. It seems like a wisdom issue to me. Be wise as serpents and use what tools and allowances are at your disposal.
"You say you agree that the gospel is about saving individual souls, and yet your orient your whole family towards the spiritual by bringing your children to church? Kind of hypocritical, isn't it?" -some mainline "evangelical," probably
Mr. Wolf's quibble with DeYoung reference to "the church" is disingenuous. Look up Rom 12:4-5, Col 1:17-20. The Bible is not ambiguous. DeYoung is obviously using biblical categories. DeYoung referring to those who advocate for a Christian Nation: “Many are less about saving sinners and more about building Christian Nations”. Stephen Wolf: “THE people of God should want a Christian Nation and should advocate for a Christian Nation (I don’t use the word transformation) precisely because a Christian Nation is one that supports the ministry of the church (what about the church in China). The central focus of a Christian Nation (Bible references please) is the good of the church, where people receive the things of eternal life.” Looks to me like DeYoung is cautioning exactly against what Mr. Wolf is advocating, a nation focus rather than a saving sinners focus.
I find it hilarious that all these CNers prop up KDY (with respects to him) as epitomizing the alternative perspective in the Reformed world. Be serious and interact with the prominent theologians (not just social media personalities).
Like whom? I can't really think of any serious theologians this day and age besides perhaps Joel Beeke, and he's natural law, Puritan expert and probably largely agrees with Wolfe since Wolfe's political theory is just based off the reformers and puritans.
Randomly stumbled on this video. Listened to the first 10min now. Can’t help but feel this was a waste of a few of your hours of life. Just go pour into someone instead of getting in silly quibbles on YT.
Why not do both if you have the time? Stephen isn't a pastor. You should watch the whole video bro, he actually answers your question. Kevin Deyoung is lying through his teeth about Stephen so it's a very helpful video. But guys like you will take everything these celebrity pastors say as gospel.
Sunday is not the sabbath day , the real sabbath day is on seventh day,Constantine changed sabbath day to Sunday,Sunday used to be Monday,and now a lot people believe that Sunday is the sabbath day but it’s wrong, my people please do the research by your self, exodus 20:8 says remember the sabbath day and keep it holy, so we know what that day is,if you want the nation to be Cristian do it in right way also remember God gave us free will he never force us
@@sammyt4549I watched your video but the things you are saying is bunch of lies, in John 14:15 Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments, but you are saying seventy day Adventist they don’t have to put their faith on sabbath,that’s like trying to say the sabbath day is what we worship, before you get to God you must obey his teaching that’s where the faith starts,one question I have for you and it’s simple don’t send me to your videos because I know people like you when they don’t have answer all they say is oh you didn’t listen to what I was saying, just tell me where in the Bible says you have to keep Sunday ?you can’t even find all you guys are doing is leading people to hell and making lies,you need to repent and accept the truth not just arguing every time.
@ryanfishel9394exodus 20:8 it’s says remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, my friend don’t even think about sun-day that’s the beast day who wants to force people to worship him on this day
The primary role of a pastor is not to grow the kingdom but to be an overseer and minister to it. The role of growing the kingdom is a responsibility shared by ALL Christians. Celebrity pastorism and megachurchianity are serious problems that make it seem as though the church is propelled by only great preachers and how many people they can bring into the church through their preaching and that's caused worship itself in its substance and form to deteriorate.
These celebrity pastors (Gospel Coalition fanboys) seem to believe pastors do all the work, while the flock just sits and listens to them, doing absolutely nothing physical for the kingdom, except maybe speaking the gospel. If they speak the gospel from the gulag, then the gospel will thrive even more (from their view). I have literally had many conversations like this, and these pastors are literally apathetic to our neighbors being oppressed by Marxists.
This is all so wild. You’d think these “career” evangelicals would be happy to hear an academic as well-read and intellectually as consistent as Dr. Wolfe represent Christianity against the enemies of our Lord, but they are extremely afraid of this man, a man whose family he refers to as “the Wolfe pack?” If they could just take a step back they might see how ridiculous these attacks are, I get second-hand embarrassment from these weirdos. I makes young ppl like us think they have a compromised browser history?
You know who we know does not? Dusty Devers. You can’t be brave unless you know the weapons of our enemies. But I’m just a kid.
Are you serious?
The piety of “not caring about politics” is almost always disingenuous. and in fact those people are definitely political and are only adopting “not caring about politics” BECAUSE of their politics.
Their political opinions are weakening and driving their Christianityz
How would you substantiate that to prove that you didn't just make a baseless assertion about an (apparently) large group of (assumedly) your siblings?
I'm not saying it never happens, but making sweeping baseless assertions about an unnamed group of people that you assumedly share one faith and Spirit with (atleast some-Lord knows) is probably the second of '2 wrongs not making a right', at best
@@BrianMcLaughlin-ds2hcjust look at people like tim keller, david platt or matt chandler. Most times their “gospel centered” rhetoric just whitewashes their lefty political preferences as “biblical”. Just look at how chandler talks about race. This isnt hard to find
At first I thought they were just confused. Now I realize that they are not, but are actively misrepresenting, and I wish that were not so. Lord have mercy.
Hmm, I think Mr. Kermit DeFrog missed the point.
First time I've ever heard DeYoung's voice. He literally sounds like a stereotypical cartoon nerd.
😂
DeYoung failed the physiognomy check ❌
@@jeffdowns1038
*adjusts glasses
"Umm, that's real mature, guys."
Before I listened to the video, I thought your comment was a little much, and then only briefly into DeYoung's talk, I realized you're completely right, and it's hilarious.
I thought that was the Apple CEO
Congratulations on the channel, Stephen! You're on track to grow it quickly. I see so much interest in the CN movement, and increasing displeasure with the old guard of the big eva. group.
These pastors are very isolated-thinking in their positions in failing to see what their congregants do outside of building and either not equipping /disciplining them and what their people’s impact on those around them in their environment/ circle. Covid isolation and those looking for leadership during that tyrannical period is an example of the importance of looking outside the building/local church that caved.
I for one looked online for leadership in the Christian sense bc it wasn’t evident locally and yet what are we seeing now??!!
Who is assigning topics to DeYoung? He’s so deep in the Big Eva quagmire that he actually sounds like a ventriloquist doll being run by TGC. 😮
God bless you, Stephen!
Anyone from England or Uk in general, who largely agrees with Stephen, leave a comment.
We need to start building communities over here like they are over there.
Please let me know if i'm summarizing this fairly:
The Church is where Christians learn about God's Laws, ways the Gospel etc. and this is the first and highest good. Christians are to then take what they have learned and seek political power to implement laws that do not hinder them from living out those teachings. The goal isn't to force people to be Christians but rather to implement laws that don't hinder people from becoming Christian. The pastors job is to focus on reminding Christians to always seek the highest things first and keep the lesser goods in perspective. Pastor aren't responsible for political actions as this is the primary role of the congregation. The Church is the conscience of the State not the Crown to rule over it or it's slave to obey it. His critique of existing approaches is that they do not positively encourage Christians to seek out political power to overthrow unjust laws and implement just laws. They rely only on the witness of the Christian life on an individual level and have no unified, larger vision of a State that is just and rightly ordered toward the natural and spiritual good of it's citizens.
I'm new to this discussion so I would like to ensure I'm understanding what he is saying clearly.
Love this channel
One would think that DeYoung, having once been accused (by Greg Thompson and Duke Kwon) of sharing white supremacy's "impulse" would be much more judicious in describing a movement, and its adherents, in terms of their impulses.
I completely agree with DeYoung. The means to fulfil God’s will on earth is ONLY through the church. The man in the cell, put there by tyrants for his faith, is more free than the man who is experiencing what you call “the complete good” whatever that is, because he is not suffering but basking in God’s common graces. If you think that the government is your brother in arms because it allows you to open your church or Christian school, you are sorely mistaken. The state is as corrupt as any other man- made edifice. Kevin DeYoung is putting it in its proper context in the life of a Christian. So-called Christians want to build the state because it helps them avoid being the hands and feet
of Christ to people they want to avoid. It’s not the job of the state to help the church do anything and thinking that way is not only obfuscatory but dangerous. Kevin is making this clear and I agree.
And mocking his voice is incredibly insolent and immature.
You are correct: mocking DeYoung is insolent and immature. It is also sinful; but so is attributing sinful motives to people, like you did:
"So-called Christians want to build the state because it helps them avoid being the hands and feet of Christ to people they want to avoid."
You have no idea .They would deny that. More importantly "being Christ's hands and feet" is a virtually meaningless concept, which you seem to be employing as a means of claiming the moral high ground. You should stop that.
@ I’m making no direct claims about anyone or myself. I do not know any of you people well enough to assume any motives. I wouldn’t say that I am morally superior in any way. Notice that I only directly addressed the mocking.
@@Claire5020GEN
Yes, you did assume motives. Only by doing so could you have said this:
"So-called Christians want to build the state because it helps them avoid being the hands and feet
of Christ to people they want to avoid."
That sort of claim is a claim about motives.
Kevin DeYoung could do a solid Kermit impression.
Great video, I think the point about the church is the point. It is the conflation of church and kingdom which confuses the discussion. There must be a half dozen views on what is church and what is kingdom and in the pan-protestant/orthodox/catholic arena of X it's anybody's guess what the term "church" or "kingdom" entails. Or, "chosen people", but that's just funny.
Another fire Steven Wolf video.
This movement is evenescent
@NotCalvinist777 it's not. :)
This same thing is done by Jason DeRouchie in his recent book on the Old Testament. He criticizes theonomy and then throws Christian Nationalism in as basically the same thing and only cites Shenvi's review of TCCN to support his position, never interacting with Wolfe's natural law basis for his claims.
You nailed a major problem when discussing ambiguous use of the word "church". It's a way ministers intentionally or not add onto the consciences of laity things specific to themselves and their offices, whereas in truth the laity are free of these pre/proscriptions.
Re-upload?
You know the excerpts I've seen in this video better to define a Christian duty to their Nation then all the other bloviating I've heard about Christian nationalism for the last 10 years. And I am deeply bothered that most of the people I've seen talking about your book and you seem to be misrepresenting it.
If you’re talking about DeYoung, his definitions of Christian duty to nations is terrible.
How about a simple phone call to Kevin?
Great discussion.
Stephen what you seem to be advocating for is what Id call sphere sovereignty? How is it different?
24:24 so what in the world is he wasting all of our time for?!
Kevin be loving him some Kevin 🤦🏼♂️
Maybe Joel Webbon is more the kind of person he's talking about.
I don't even know if I will get a response, but this is posed to Dr. Wolfe and/or anyone who has any insight on what his position might be. What is your position on churches that elect to be tax exempt/non-profit tax status? If we know that the politics and popular culture are currently anti-Christian...anti-Christ in spirit, then should church's think twice about receiving the non-profit/religious exemption from the IRS?
I don’t know what Wolfe’s position is. But, it would not be financially feasible for the average church in America to keep operating legally if they had to pay taxes like other businesses. The vast majority would be forced to close.
Philosophically / strategically, I don’t think taking advantage of the above benefits puts us in debt to the state. It seems like a wisdom issue to me. Be wise as serpents and use what tools and allowances are at your disposal.
@@tjkhan4541 I appreciate your perspective on this.
Unrelated but I think he’s wearing a Banner of Truth tie. I have the same one.
"You say you agree that the gospel is about saving individual souls, and yet your orient your whole family towards the spiritual by bringing your children to church? Kind of hypocritical, isn't it?"
-some mainline "evangelical," probably
DeYoung looks like a liberal leftist media personality!
Mr. Wolf's quibble with DeYoung reference to "the church" is disingenuous. Look up Rom 12:4-5, Col 1:17-20. The Bible is not ambiguous. DeYoung is obviously using biblical categories.
DeYoung referring to those who advocate for a Christian Nation: “Many are less about saving sinners and more about building Christian Nations”.
Stephen Wolf: “THE people of God should want a Christian Nation and should advocate for a Christian Nation (I don’t use the word transformation) precisely because a Christian Nation is one that supports the ministry of the church (what about the church in China). The central focus of a Christian Nation (Bible references please) is the good of the church, where people receive the things of eternal life.”
Looks to me like DeYoung is cautioning exactly against what Mr. Wolf is advocating, a nation focus rather than a saving sinners focus.
Univocal and analogous! I was able to apply my logic lesson.
Revenge of the Nerds
I am Nigerian and I am offended by you Nigerian example 😂
I find it hilarious that all these CNers prop up KDY (with respects to him) as epitomizing the alternative perspective in the Reformed world. Be serious and interact with the prominent theologians (not just social media personalities).
Like whom? I can't really think of any serious theologians this day and age besides perhaps Joel Beeke, and he's natural law, Puritan expert and probably largely agrees with Wolfe since Wolfe's political theory is just based off the reformers and puritans.
Randomly stumbled on this video. Listened to the first 10min now. Can’t help but feel this was a waste of a few of your hours of life. Just go pour into someone instead of getting in silly quibbles on YT.
Okay bro
Why not do both if you have the time? Stephen isn't a pastor. You should watch the whole video bro, he actually answers your question. Kevin Deyoung is lying through his teeth about Stephen so it's a very helpful video. But guys like you will take everything these celebrity pastors say as gospel.
Randomly stumbled on this comment. Read the first 10 words. Stopped: waste of time.
Doug Wilson was right, revilers will be reviling.
Sunday is not the sabbath day , the real sabbath day is on seventh day,Constantine changed sabbath day to Sunday,Sunday used to be Monday,and now a lot people believe that Sunday is the sabbath day but it’s wrong, my people please do the research by your self, exodus 20:8 says remember the sabbath day and keep it holy, so we know what that day is,if you want the nation to be Cristian do it in right way also remember God gave us free will he never force us
This debate is actually why we have a two day weekend, Saturday and Sunday. Seems those in the past left room for conscience on the matter.
I used to think this but its not true. This has been thoroughly refuted many times.
ua-cam.com/video/DAccEVxdKrU/v-deo.htmlsi=OTCeamKidKqzjNnk
@ryanfishel9394 Even if you think Sunday is when Christians should worship, it is not the Sabbath of the Bible
@@sammyt4549I watched your video but the things you are saying is bunch of lies, in John 14:15 Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments, but you are saying seventy day Adventist they don’t have to put their faith on sabbath,that’s like trying to say the sabbath day is what we worship, before you get to God you must obey his teaching that’s where the faith starts,one question I have for you and it’s simple don’t send me to your videos because I know people like you when they don’t have answer all they say is oh you didn’t listen to what I was saying, just tell me where in the Bible says you have to keep Sunday ?you can’t even find all you guys are doing is leading people to hell and making lies,you need to repent and accept the truth not just arguing every time.
@ryanfishel9394exodus 20:8 it’s says remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, my friend don’t even think about sun-day that’s the beast day who wants to force people to worship him on this day
FYI Kevin is a Pastor Stephen is youtuve influencer, only one builds the kingdom of God.
You might be better suited listening to the gospel coalition rather than this channel
What a moronic take.
No, all members of the body are kingdom builders. Check out 1 Peter for proof.
The primary role of a pastor is not to grow the kingdom but to be an overseer and minister to it. The role of growing the kingdom is a responsibility shared by ALL Christians. Celebrity pastorism and megachurchianity are serious problems that make it seem as though the church is propelled by only great preachers and how many people they can bring into the church through their preaching and that's caused worship itself in its substance and form to deteriorate.
These celebrity pastors (Gospel Coalition fanboys) seem to believe pastors do all the work, while the flock just sits and listens to them, doing absolutely nothing physical for the kingdom, except maybe speaking the gospel. If they speak the gospel from the gulag, then the gospel will thrive even more (from their view). I have literally had many conversations like this, and these pastors are literally apathetic to our neighbors being oppressed by Marxists.