Old Winco Dyna Generator (Part 1) - Will it Run?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- I picked up this old Winco Dyna Generator on the cheap. Thought it would be a good project to work on something older and see if I can make it run again.
Part 2: • Old Winco Dyna Generat...
Engine Model# 195432-4070-01
Generator Model# Winco LC4500I/L
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I love the old generators. No cheap plastic parts on that generator.
I love these older open style generators. No covers or fancy electrics. Motor, generator, that's it.
I think this generator needs to go into your own personal museum of genies.
You just gotta love this older equipment.They were built like tanks. Given the proper care, they will work forever and if there was a problem, they were built to be repaired. I have some small engine powered equipment that are at least 50 years old and still perform quite well. So glad you saved this one from the scrap yard.
Great video! Briggs & Stratton made that engine for many years. As a kid in the late '50's early '60's my family had an old Toro "Park Special" reel cut lawn mower with that very engine. 8 horse power with an oil bath air cleaner. You sat on a sulky behind the unit. It was a beast! Thanks for the very informative, diagnostic videos. A joy to watch!
This is not meant to be disrespectful in any manner. You do a much better job than I am capable of. This comment won't solve the problem, I simply believe you induce numerous variables sometimes. Such as lapping the intake valve then also changing back to the old carb. Then return to the clone carb but also adding fuel, returning to the original spark plug, and also removing the air filter. This is just my opinion, but I would do those one at a time, testing each one individually. Thank you for all the informative videos.
Thanks. I ended up cutting a lot of footage to make this a little shorter. But agree, do not want to change many things in between tests. There is another video on this generator where I finally figured out the issue.
When I was working in the sixty’s we had a similar type generator it to only put out five or six amps that was enough for a drill we were using to bore holes in wood beams ! We left it alone ! Good enough for our purpose !
I had an old altenator design power unit given to me once. A 7hp briggs of the same design as yours. It had set in a barn for several years, carb, tank were in bad shape. I cleaned tge crud from in&out the carb with a soft bristle mini brush and some sandpaper, use all the old parts. Put bb's in the tank with some water and shook it clean, several rinses and one with gas. I had a newer coil from a junk rider, converted to electronic ign. Stole a sparkplug out of an old weed eater. The machine starts on the first pull every time. Its a 3000 Watt unit. I gave it to my pa-in-law, he used it when Hurricane Katrina hit us. He had 3 freexmzers, told him run 1 freezer and freeze it down, then run another, do the same same. Just rotate the units and don't open the doir unless nessecery. He ran some lighting with it also. He's been gone now about 7 yrs, I don't know whar happened to the old machine, it had an 81 yr model motor. Guess when the family started cleaning out his stuff the generator got sold. He was a great guy. Used to sit outside at night and talk for hours, best friend I ever had....
I like that you will put your time and energy into an old engine that is simply not economical but for the sake of eve👌👍ryone.
The one thing that seems to stand out is that the engine sounds like it's labouring hard, right from the very first start - That hard "thrappy" sound tells me that the engine isn't happy about something and I'm wondering if that's what the previous owner picked up on, and thought perhaps the spark arrestor was clogged, and removed it on that basis. The nearest I can relate it to is an old Briggs powered bale elevator that we had on the farm which sounded just the same.
Now, there were two possibilities suggested to us, one being that there would be a flattened cam lobe, limiting valve lift, and the other being that the flywheel key would be partially sheared, thus shifting the firing point. In our case, it was the latter, and a new key fixed the problem.
The glow in the exhaust is indicative of the exhaust valve opening early, thus releasing the flame too soon, and whilst the combustion is still in progress - Thuswise, the energy from combustion is not being maximised in the cylinder, but is still burning at the moment it is being released into the exhaust muffler, and causing it to overheat and glow. That would also indicate that the cylinder block at that point is also overheating, and liable to be lacking lubrication, and greatly accelerated wear - which could also be a cause of glittering in the oil.
I'll be interested to see part two, and see what you find, and what the real causes are.
check the ignition timing with the head off check the valve timing, valves on the rock as piston passes TDC. set the carb at full load wear you want full power not off load
Yes, I did another video on this and took it apart. The cam timing was off by a tooth.
They used to add those springs to take up the slack in the governor. Makes it just a tad smoother.
I have one similar to this one, bought it cheap, had to clean the carb replace a outlet. Need to fire mine up as I haven't ran it in years.
That thing sounds so freaking loud! Def one benefit of new gensets, regardless of inverter.
I had one of these long ago but it was a 12 HP. It had a very poor governor as I remember. But it worked for many many years with nothing but fuel and, and the occasional oil changes. I loaded it up heavily with a welder and it had plenty of power, but the power occurred down at about 50 Hz. The engine had a painful sounding knock at about 62 Hz so I was afraid to adjust it to have higher speeds unloaded. Once I started working "in the road" I lost track of it.
The exhaust note during your testing at the beginning of the video sounds like it has ignition timing problems. (I say this at the time you just tested the new carb.) The glowing red exhaust also supports this theory.
They had plenty of power when new. The acceleration when started up would bring the engine up to speed a lot quicker than yours is ramping up.
Looking forward to seeing your next video on it.
That thing sounds amazing!
It sounds even better after the work I did in part 2.
Great attention to detail….on the exhaust bolts reassembly I’d use some copper grease.
somehow I remember the early 90's being a bit more advanced than this thing shows.
Yes. This one could have been made in the 50s if it was not for the electronic ignition.
Start of though still have 80s hairstyles
You might find investing in a Colourtune to be worthwhile for diagnosing and especially tuning. It's a spark plug with a clear top that lets you see how the fuel is burning, and by that can tell you if it's lean, rich, right, burning oil or other contaminants in small amounts and so on.
I was given a very old one many years ago and though I use it rarely, it has helped me considerably with those times I've pulled it out.
Without having seen P2, one thing I would be suspicious of are the bearings around the power head. Perhaps when it's under load the pressure on the bearings is increasing, and something is binding up? Perhaps end play is letting the armature shift towards one end or the other, and again binding or causing pressure on engine components?
Off to part 2... :)
(Thanks again for posting BTW, interesting material and very well presented without annoying music or other background nuisances!)
You're dusting off my memory of using a color-tune on the dual side draft carbs on old British MG's
I like the check the armature bearings under load if there going that would drag motor down
There is a part 2 on this. Figured out the issue.
Nice video on the genset. Try adjusting your main jet with your 3000 watt load applied. That may help.
Another great video James. I'm a long time lurker and recent subscriber. I have watched lots of other video from various sources and I really prefer yours. First, you have a voice for radio which makes it easier to listen to and the way you structure the progression of the teardown and reassembly. Your camera work is very good, thank you for using a tripod, I get seasick on some of the videos out there, dude pick something to focus on already! I appreciate your attention to detail and the data you provide as you go along. Every time you include stuff like the B&S check sheet I run out to the web an get it. Just can't have to much documentation!
Really like the style of carb used on these older engines. Updraft is ancient technology but, fuel cannot pool in the intake. BTW, did you clean out the tank on this one? Did I look away for that step? I saw you replaced the fuel line. The crap in the bottom of the bowl had to come from somewhere. Maybe past that damaged bowl gasket? Thanks again.
Thanks for the great feedback. Been working to improve as I go. My earlier videos were a bit rough. Do not remember taking the intake off. After my luck with the exhaust, probably did not want to risk it. Just picked up another red generator with the same carb from 1987.
There’s gold in that pan! Also looked like you was starting a friction fire while lapping that valve. Just observations.
The old flat head motors were so darn hard to kill........ if you didn't run them out of oil, they just kept on ticking.
great job James!
Thanks
Very satisfying nosie when ya heat the jet brake free lol
Throttle control and spring from governor arm to carburettor, remove the spring from the carburettor and start it
Since you already know you have sparkles in the oil I would mike the cam journals and check the bearings. I am a bit surprised that that unit is rated for that kind of wattage. I have a Montgomery Ward one from the mid to late fifties which is rated for 1200 watts as I recall. The engine is similar in size and looks to yours. Can't walk away with the question mark hanging. While you are down there I would pull the piston and mike the cylinder bore for 'hour glass wear'. This would explain your rising friction midstroke perhaps.
I've got that exact same generator except it has electric start and its badged by pincor
Couldn't hurt to crack open the Dyna and see if the bearings need to be replaced as they might be dragging under heavy load?
I have a feeling part 2 might involve that. I just ordered a leak down tester. Thought I would start there and see where it leads me. I am very suspicious of the piston drag and am thinking maybe a ring problem? 80psi still seems low to me. L-head Briggs lawn mower engines higher compression numbers.
I give you a lot of respect, I like the way you work. I am a retired gen guy. The electrical end and governors and parallel switchgear for a Cat dealer for 42 years.
@@PabloDiablo682 there is a part two on this. I ended up installing new rings and a piston. But the real issue was the timing.
@@jcondon1 That's what I was thinking when I saw the plug, and the glowing exhaust.
@@jcondon1 I am not sure what you are using in your ultrasonic cleaner. Have you heard of simple green crystal? I used to use it for cleaning scuba regulators. It is unseated and dye free. I also sacrificed a couple of battery operated tooth brushes to help scrub away crusted on debris. You can get different brushes of hardness depending on the fragility of the surface you are trying to clean. Someone in another video suggested dental picks, but we banded them from working on regulators as you risk scraping or scratching the mating surfaces. Check out a scuba tool parts distributor for brass picks. You can get pointed ones and also flat surfaces. They are ideal for removing o rings.
Great videos.
James keep the videos coming. I’ve been waiting for new ones.
Working on a few more. Unfortunately the generator market has not been too good since the virus hit. Hopefully things pick up.
Robert Boulware there is a part 2 coming on this one. Also picked a few more things so will have plenty more to come.
@@jcondon1 has part 2 came out yet? I haven't seen it
Yes
hi james you are working hard on this old girl ,cant be a lot of money in it for you
,i think a rebuild if you have got the time and keep the spending down if you can mate
Not always about making money. Never rebuilt a flat head, wanted to give it a go.
If that’s a points condenser ignition, change both especially condenser if points are ok.
That used to be a generator on a fire engine, probably engine #4 from what Insaw on the generator. That’s why it is painted red.
To test fuel we do the screwdriver test dunk it in get out your lighter and safely light it if it burns bright and fast it’s ok if smoky or dim flame probably has water in it,works for us eliminates wasting time on rest system if just fuel.we have fresh fuel but we still like to test it that way it’s the kid in us lol
What is the flash at 50:10? Spray a little carb cleaner in the intake while under load to see if it needs more fuel.
I have found that if the bottom fuel adjustment screw is adjusted to far in it can and will damage the seat and needle. (at video point 1435)
Wonder if that sludge was stabil? Think I’ve heard mustie1 say that can happen.
It could definitely be! I've seen it gum up injectors.
I saw a lot of torsion when you ran it under load... Maybe crank bearings worn and crank twisting a bit on load up
Sounded like a helicopter in my AirPods. Lol
What if the copper windings has one or couple of turn short circuited? Can we compare this with another power head ?
them gen set's we ues on road work's in the UK manly ruing traffic light's i often sore them doing that but never sore then driving big loads often i would boil an electric kettle on one their were never meant to drive. heavy loads, good gens reliable kit . les England
How about trying a different muffler? If intake and compression are good, it would be a simple test to try.
Made a part 2 on this one
I like your diagnostic trail. Had a shop myself in the 80s. STILL learning after watching you fix some of these engines. I also have a valve removal tool(didthe last time I checked) that I wouldnt mind getting rid of. Have you tried adjusting the carb under load?
I think you need more carburetor. Can you get an aftermarket antique manifold and a gx 390 Carburetor?
More carburetor? You mean "A new carburetor?"
That engine you need to spin it backwards to check compression
Is our overloading the generator
Looks like you changed the carb at some point? Before 47:30 its red, after 47:30 its metallic? Love your vids. I learn so much. Thanks. I have one of these carbs on an old Briggs Model 14 with an insane magneto system.
I did. The red was OEM and the metallic was a clone. I made a part 2 on this Winco and ended up solving the problem.
I wonder what would happen if you use premium fuel
I don't think it would change anything but I could be wrong.
When the exhaust starts to glow you know something is off
Yup. Found the issue in part two.
Yeah, too rich or too retarded spark timing, probably the last
How is the crank caseventilation. If its obstructed it can cause back pressure in the crank case under the piston causing to run slow know it's a stretch but it has to be on the air side of things or mechanical but realistically sound like you may have a bad main bearing
There is a part 2 on this generator. Ended up solving the issue.
I think it has a egg shaped cylinder, That was the dragging you felt and the source of all that aluminum you saw in the oil. My guess it was run at wide open for most of its life and never maintained properly.
I would have to agree. Did not have a bore gauge at the time, but have since worked on other 8hp Briggs and they did not have the same drag.
@@jcondon1 just stick a ring in the cylinder and push it down and measure the end gap. It will be bigger at spots that it is bigger. I am sure you have an old ring, somewhere, that will fit in that bore but that would require tearing it down to some degree. Just looks like a worn out money pit to me.
Right from the outset I felt the Engine was labouring quite hard felt top end issues poor oil circulation as well I bet theirs a blockage in the oil channels, or failed oil pump stopping oil flow, the metal in the oil is a big red flag something is binding very bad I doubt it will last long in that situation. those older engines were also designed for leaded fuel which was lead lubricant the cylinder did seem very dry on the bore just some observations.
Did you remove the spring on the carb linkage? The one you said was unnecessary.
I did, but out it back
We had a green coleman generator. 3000 kw bought in 1985. 8 hp briggs. It was soooo loud and would hunt all over the place no matter how clean the carb was
Good to know, thanks
And don't forget that generator good have a problem dropping voltage in itself pre-loading giving false indication causing a bigger load than what really is there for a generator
Could the muffler being close to your intake manifold be evaporating your fuel mixt ut re. Vapir lock?
There is a part 2 on this.ua-cam.com/video/SR8tQJ9NFvo/v-deo.html
I've had great luck with clone carbs: but not the flo-jet clone carb. Why on earth would there be fitment issues on a carb that's supposed to be a replacement? I'm reordering (yet again) a rebuild kit for the original carb and giving it another shot (same engine on a Troy Bilt tiller).
You asked for ideas why it goes to full-throttle and cannot handle load. There are two things you did not check 1) Setting fuel-mixture UNDER LOAD. (those old carbs are not good at maintaining air/fuel mix as the throttle plate moves) 2) Ignition timing... points, dwell, keyway....etc
Oh that was gas?! I thought you were parched and had a few bottles of apple juice to share! 🤣
Rpm sounds low and it seems timing is soft, jmho.
What are you talking about, the compression release valve ? If you are talking about the valves being a little bit open when the piston is at the top of the cylinder , well , that piston is in the EXHAUST/INTAKE MODE, Of course you are not going to get any reading on THAT cycle. Neither valve is open during the compression/power mode. So , what is being open to keep you from using a compression tester? ALL due respect. Keep in mind, for every 2 revolutions of the crankshaft, there's only 1 revolution of the camshaft. This means the magnet is passing the pickup twice.
Sorry, been a while since I watched this one. What is the timestamp related to the comment? Also there is another video on this. Had to open the engine to find the issue.
@@jcondon1 Thanks James for both great videos on this machine. Great work! New subscriber and long time tinkerer. Where do you find shop / repair manual for specs on valves and torque settings? I found a similar 1986 WinCo PM2500 /A Generator with a 5 HP Briggs engine. It is near 100% complete and runs good with power on first start up. I want to maintain it and make it last and not afraid to give the time to dig into more complex repair tasks ~
Please share any helpful websites or tips or phone numbers that you use as resources for repair specs. What type torque wrench do you use? Thanks again and looking forward to new videos from you ~ Best, D
What was your final outcome on this generator? Trash or sitting in the corner of the garage awaiting divine inspiration?
I made another video on this and figured out the problem. Just search my channel for Winco to find part 2.
capacitor in the generator placing the engine under too much load. Possible bearing in the generator sticking and bad.
Maybe someone switched the powerhead and frame a long time ago?
What is the size of the carb bolts.. i lost one.. intake manifold pipe. I have the same exact carb on our 20T log splitter. How about tight bearings on the generator head or its needs lube. Try some synthetic oil
Or some Marvel mystery oil mixed in.
Sorry, don't remember the bolt size. There was a part 2 on this video. Had to open the engine to solve the issue.
It could be a spon rod bearing binding?
No rod bearings in this engine.
It sounds like the engine is to weak. I know you said the compression was at 80 but that engine should not have any trouble holding 3600 RPM at FULL LOAD 4KW. Maybe someone replaced the engine on that unit with a smaller engine. I would go and buy a new Briggs engine or a Harbor Freight one install it and I bet that will fix the problem.
I did another video on this. The timing ended up being off.
coil
Subbed👍👍✌️
Do you know the h p of the engine? I wonder if the generator end was replace with a higher rated end. I have one that looks just like that and is oy 1,000 watts at 1800 rpm
This was 8hp
What if the generator itself has a problem with bearings putting too much strain on the motor more than what is 3000 watts in other words you're gaining torque before you gain amperage yes I would take that generator apart your gaming strain on the generator before you're getting the voltage if that motor was able to spend that generator up easier and the generator was free from defect it would not be so quick to stall might be better off with your 3000
There is a part two! Timing....
Hi James, could you send me the name and address of the tecnician,who repairs your electronic boards.thank you James. Manuel.
On a desktop or laptop computer go to this page and click the button to see his email address www.youtube.com/@Bassguitarist1985/about
Please buy a welder, so easy to weld that bolt out an aluminum head.
Timmay!
any1 care for a drink? YUP I like those old briggs. I think the foam over pleated paper is
known as a stage 2 filter?
nope its called a prefilter.
@@johnweakland3151 o.k. I just thought it was for very dusty areas.
overfull oil, also known as oh shit my float needle leaked and filled the engine with gas, or I'm just an engine that loves the rain
check your valve timing.
There is a part 2 on this. Don't want to spoil it, but think you are on to something.
Briggs IC engines do not have compression release, needs valve lash set.
When we used one of those generators for construction we were lucky to run a compressor and a skill saw off of it
Weird, I have the same unit and it runs a 1500watts heater and simultaneously start up my 20 gallon compressor effortlessly, the engine pitch barely changes.
The guy that I was helping had it sitting in back of his truck with no protection from the weather when we was setting up affordable homes he did not like keeping up with his tools
@@markmullins4222 Gotcha lol
This was a great video to watch. Lots of helpful troubleshooting techniques. When you do torquing of some of the bolts, could you mention what torque spec you are setting them to? About to watch part 2!
As much as I like James work and as much as I respect his skill. This always has been the one aspect, that I didnt like: He seems to guess torque values a lot and then uses a torque wrench to tighten bolts to "his spec". Imho this doesnt make a lot of sense. If you dont have any torque values from the manufacturer, then youre better off doing it by feel.
Great systematic diagnostic. It will be interesting to see any final outcome of you decide to that follow further. Thanks for sharing!!
I have been binge watching all your videos. This video gave me not so fond memories of screw/bolt extraction while I was a Machinist in the Navy. You would not believe how many dim-witted sailors are allowed to perform maintenance on the fighter jets.
I don’t know what it is but I can’t stop watching your shows over and over love it ! Keep them going !
I have a 16hp Briggs generator just like that and i can't seem to find any parts for the generator part. Actually this is one of the only videos i can find on fixing one
I am not a mechanic, but maybe the even though you are getting spark when you hand crank and at no load the spark plug wire looks good. Maybe even the 110 v outlets? I really thought you had it on the last attempt. Good luck.
Man O Man James, this is a real head thinker, but i know you will get it on part 2. see you there.
All that sediments from the carb, I guess thats what damaged the inlet valve seat.
Thay do not make or sell 1/4"x22 taps or bolts, If you seid 1/4"x20nc or 1/4 x28nf are more believable end message.
Great video, this is really enjoyable to watch. No annoying "action" or clueless operation, un- or overmotivated talking or anything of that kind. One rarely finds that! The valves immediately came to my mind when I saw flames coming out of the exhaust at the first carb adjustment, and then again when the muffler started glowing. I would have suspected the exhaust valve though which might start beeing to tight when the engine is warm. Excellent job of testing the valves with liquid, because often you lap them and the seats look perfect but they till leak. Had that multiple times and learned my lesson to always do a leak test with brakecleaner or an equivalent. I was very much surprised that the repaired valves didn´t seem to improve the problem.
re: "I saw flames coming out of the exhaust at the first carb adjustment,"
As John found out, it was apparently the timing that was off.
@@uploadJ I honestly don´t see a connection between your comment and mine...
@@v-g-z3689 re: "I honestly don´t see a connection between your comment and mine..."
Unexpected ... MAYBE the others reading this comment stream will?
@@uploadJ Possibly they do, yes.
Very good! I’m fairly experienced with repairing generators, both mechanical and the electrical end as well. I had never seen this “leak down” testing method done before. This is why I really like UA-cam...for the learning aspect. Well done. Thank you.
Thanks. I actually broke down and ordered a real leak down tester today. Going to hook it up to that engine and see what it says. Compression still seems a little low to me. Usually just pressurizing the cylinder like i did with ~60 psi lets you find the obvious leaks.
I do actually believe that is the max cause i have a old generator like that ! And if im not mistaken u took out little over the max power on that generator so that is impressive
By the way if u ever want to sale that old generator? I would love to buy it from u
Spark arrester missing, not a bad thing. Engine will run better with a little more power
try taking out the fuel filter? maybe restricting the flow?
Just a side note on the leak down test. The breather cover must be in place and the hose plugged when checking for crankcase pressure. Nothing will show on the dipstick tube as all the pressure will blow out the breather area.
A lot of people would have just given up at the point where the new carb didn’t work. Thank you for going all the way, made a great video.
Thanks. There is also a part 2 on this one where I find and fix the issue.
I watched it after this one, it was great. A rare channel, keep it up. Subscribed till the end.
I would run it without the muffler on as a first test, as it is easy to do and causes no harm.
If no improvement, I would check the spark timing, take the head off and check the valve timing too, tho I dont know the opening closing angles. These could all be out of whack, so low power even tho the compression is good. Maybe someone opened the motor and put the cam shaft in one or two teeth out. I would also remove the decompression lobe off the cam shaft and learn to start it full compression. I have a Tecumseh lawn mower engine I did that to and it ran much better
Lets see what Part 2 brings.....
I find your videos very informative, appreciate you making them. I'm fighting with my Winco SS 4000 slow speed which always run @ 63 HZ...carb adjustments make no change...thoughts??
Did you verify the valve lift? Glitter could be a damaged cam. That could explain the additional force to turn the flywheel in mid stroke.
In part 2 I took the engine apart and found the glitter was coming from the piston. Installed new piston and rings, honed the cylinder. Runs well now, but still more resistance then normal when the piston is traveling up or down regardless of the cycle.
What do you use in your ultrasonic cleaner for the cleaning liquid ?
I have a post on the solution I use ua-cam.com/users/postUgybGXqT5ugMPg8eN7l4AaABCQ