Why Jason Todd (ROBIN) Had To Die
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Jason Todd, the second Robin, is famous for having died at the hands of Batman's arch nemesis The Joker. DC Comics held a now infamous vote to see whether this new Robin would live or die. Fans voted for Jason to die and he would end up resurrected decades later as the villain and later anti- hero Red Hood. 35 years after the story line Death In The Family, wherein Todd was brutally beaten with a crowbar, the version wherein he survived has been released. Robin Lives now sees the light of day. Learn the story behind how Jason was killed and what his survival would have looked like. It's a journey into the minds of Jim Starlin, Dennis O'Neil, comic fandom of the late 80s and more here on Casually Comics! Don't forget to subscribe for more thrilling comic book tales!
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Which version do you prefer?
The OG 🖖🏾
I prefer the original.
Published version 💯%
While I feel dc has 100% ruined things with these family's as well as Batman getting more and more child soldiers
Bringing Jason back
Undoes batman's guilt I feel in the face of more and more children are being signed up
Like he even goes after Lucius Fox kid.
Batman is a straight menace at this point
the published version. I was reading Batman at the time this came out, and I absolutely hated Jason. (I only knew him post-crisis).
He was constantly obnoxious, bull-headed, and running into danger. In short, he was a dangerous jerk. I didn't get to vote (my parents wouldn't let me). At the time it happened, I was actually sort-of happy. I thought it was something the comics needed.
When he came back I was honestly upset. I thought it was stupid and that it was important that he stay dead (because death has always been too much of a revolving door at DC). But in the years since, I've grown to like adult Jason. It just wouldn't have been the same if he lived.
I can't help but feel if this was done today Jason would still end up dying as the result of a poorly conceived internet poll
He would be beaten to death by Boaty McBoatface.
Most people voting wouldn't have even read the comics
Or Boaty McBoatface would have killed him and assumed his identity for a big reveal two issues later.
lol also people are ass holes
@@avace917they’d still know Jason from movies and tv
What gets me about Jason Todd's death is that everyone focuses on the Joker and the crowbar. That crowbar gets so many cameos in Red Hood comics. I thought the most poignant part of that story was Jason's mother, a woman who betrayed her own son for her own sake. When I read it this betrayal hit me so hard and kept me up at night. It got pretty existential: What would I do with my own child? Does my life matter more than my offspring? Why does it matter more? If I abandoned them once would I do that again?
I read Red Hood books to see if they come back to this story, how Jason feels about his own family's betrayal.... yet nothing. No writer has explored this and I really feel like this is a huge hole in Jason Todd's story. If he can make peace with Batman, the Joker and that crowbar, where is his mother in all of this?
Makes sense. He is pushing the thoughts aside, some people take decades to figure out the ACTUAL reason for their trauma.
Yeah I wished they would bring this reason, his actual reason for being in close proximity to the Joker (Because he wasn’t really going after him) into the mainstream. I feel the betrayal of his mother as well as Jason’s conflicted feelings for her after the fact makes the story sadder and hit harder.
I wonder if the fact that the Under the Red Hood movie not including Jason’s mother has something to do with it since that movie has been really popular with everyone
Cause bringing up Jason's mom place in the ordeal runs counter to the whole "Jason got his own self killed" argument which lets be blunt is 100% victim blaming
Yeah I've thought the same thing. The entire reason he was even in a position to die is because he was looking for his mother and was betrayed by that same mother. He literally spent his last moments attempting to save her despite that betrayal, It would be interesting to explore that.
Jason is one of the very few times where a character revival was solely to a story's benefit, because the legacy his death left to the story and character growth are so interesting and create an interesting twist on Batman's mentees.
I'd say Winter Soldier too, and it even toys with similar ideas.
It is kinda crazy to think that Jason was re-used by the writers as a tool essentially to "destroy" the classical concept of a sidekick in their attempt to make comics more "mature" by changing him into a villain, only for them to not realize that, when Jason returned, he'd become a very sympathetic character to many. Not everyone sadly has the luck to have a healthy relationship with their father/-figures, it is more common for many to clash with them, so Jason became an easily selfinsert character for a big portion of the people. Add to this the massive amount of self-doubt many also have and compare this to how Bruce described Jason: "His (Batmans) biggest failure". So, many people can see themselves in Jasons place, including, in concept of course, the tragedy that befal him. While nobody ever came back from the dead there are still many who lived through events that massively hurt and damaged them just like him, so, again, it is another point that made people latch onto Red-Hood.
I imagine the "Jason in a coma" result was a way to get him out of the way since they likely had to start working on the following issues before knowing if he was meant to live or die so that way they'd only have to change a word balloon or two rather than draw completely separate issues with him alive. I imagine he would've woken up once real life caught up to the artists.
In the death in the family animated movie where you can pick multiple choices and there's one where Jason does survive the explosion and grows a resentment towards Bruce for not killing the joker ends up becoming a version of hush
As a teen, I identified with Red Hood. I grew up in the gettho, and my brother was part of a gang. Looking back, I was just full of anger, but Jason is a real representation of teens living in the hood.
One of the things I thought influenced the vote was the fact Jason was dead in The Dark Knight Returns.
The Death story is more impactful, as you so rightly pointed out the coma would have been to Soap Opera…I think they did a epic job initially on his resurrection ( pre future writers adding things like Talia going cougar on him) … because of The Killing Joke Red Hood was brilliant (I wish they had been as brilliant & given Tim a non Robin hero name when they introduced Damian ) …Keep Up The Outstanding Work Sasha 🖖🏾
Pour one out for Tim Drake's popularity. We miss you
Would be fascinating to see a series set in this "robin lives" universe. Infinite Frontier claims that "Everything is canon," so I'd really like to see how things would play out. Even just 6-12 issues would be reasonable. Not enough, but reasonable. Great vid!
Personally I consider Jason Todd an underrated Robin because to me he was the right Robin to fit the more dark modern take in the Batman comics during the Post-Crisis era. Dick Grayson's time as Robin made sense in the Golden Age and Silver Age, but by the time Bronze Age kicked his time as the Boy Wonder would be over. Because by the time we got into the Bronze Age, the world in the DC Universe started to become darker. The creators altering Jason's origin in the Post-Crisis was the right call because I think is Pre-Crisis origin would've worked if DC rebooted the Robin character during the Silver Age, like they did with the Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, or the Atom for example. Though i won't deny some of the good elements from Jason's Pre-Crisis history, such as Nocturna being his adoptive mother and a love interest for Bruce. Had Crisis On Infinite Earths hadn't happened, I could see the three of them grow into a family. Lastly I really wish DC had kept Jason's being a redhead because it helps identify him as his own character and not another copy of Dick Grayson.
For Batman 428 Robin Lives, it’s interesting that Bruce Wayne Batman was overjoyed that Jason Todd Robin is alive and that Dick Grayson Nightwing arrived at the hospital (after going into space with the Titans) to see if Bruce and Jason are okay, resulting in Bruce telling Dick that he’s okay and Jason’s in a coma and for Bruce to face the Joker alone (although he’s thankful for Dick to arrive at the hospital to keep him company and to see if Jason is okay). Also, Clark Kent Superman telling Bruce not to do what’s next after learning that Joker gained diplomatic immunity.
Without Jason Todd's Death we wouldn't have gotten to Tim Drake one of my favorite characters.
My favorite Robin as well, Dick is much more interesting as Nightwing than he was as Robin. I neither like Jason nor Damien
i’m pretty sure he would’ve been introduced regardless, considering the soap opera coma
I first started reading and collecting comics a few months before this “Death in the Family” storyline. As far as I knew, DC was where serious stories had life and death consequences, while Marvel was less serious. That was probably not an accurate impression, but stuck with me for years. I enjoyed the Detective stories with just Batman. Because of when I started, i have never really liked the dynamic duo and have always viewed the Boy Wonder as juvenile and unnecessary.
It's really interesting to me that you say that Jason becoming Red Hood felt in line with his trajectory. Because I've kind of felt a lot of dissonance between the Jason that came back and the Jason that died.
Now, I will admit that I haven't actually read a lot of comics, so most of it is from second hand accounts. And I would guess that it is also influenced greatly by fanon perspectives.
But I've just felt for some time that Jason's character was changed a lot postmortem.
Regarding the debate as to whether Jason should have ever been resurrected or not, I can see the arguement for both sides but for me keeping him deceased, while it did certainly have an important impact on Batman, having a character's existence that has already been portrayed as a type of either protagonist or co-protagonist in this case with him as Robin, for them to be defined by simply what they did for another character just feels like the equivalent of "fridging" a character albeit with some differences.
Since his resurrection (as nonsensical as the way it came about was) the interest in the character has never been stronger and the message of failure Batman felt from Death in the Family still remain which is why I like when in the end of the original Under the Hood story when asked if he would want to remove Jason's memorial in the Batcave, he refuses and says that it doesn't change anything at all.
However, since his resurrection I think it's fair to say that the way he has been written has been pretty all over the place and for the most part I have not cared for everything that they have done with his character. And to be clear, as a character, his concept as Red Hood where he killed people and Batman was a failure for never killing the Joker is something I never agreed with and always found edgy for the sake of being edgy, which is why I loved what Chip Zdarsky did with him (as short lived as it was).
Like I said, I think bringing him back was the right move, it's just what they have done with him since could have been better.
The idea of the writer wanting to kill off the hero's sidekick, finally doing it, and then having the partner brought back, is somewhat similar to Tarzan creator Edgar Rice Burroughs wanting to kill off Jane. Like Starlin, he suggested to his publisher many ways to do it. When he finally did give her a fiery death in "Tarzan the Untamed" (1920) he was pressured to immediately bring her back in the next novel "Tarzan the Terrible" (1921).
He also tried to phase her out by keeping her far away from the action, but she was too popular and he had to keep using her, despite not liking his own character.
I was reading comics at the time, but not DC comics, so I only remember the events and didn't have a dog in the fight, so to speak.
What I *do* remember, and I've never actually heard anyone talk about it, was that it was a 900 number that you had to call in to vote. 900 numbers (which were all the rage at the time,) are not toll free, they were ones you actually got charged to use. I don't remember the fee to call, I think it was a dollar or two, but this makes the story about someone who set it to speed dial *insane,* regardless of whether or not it was true. It would have cost a substantial amount of money to do it more than a few times.
So I was around at the time (started collecting comics in 81). At the time, I didn't know ANYONE who liked Jason Todd. Why? 1. His original version was just a copy of Dick, which seemed lazy and pointless. 2. His post-Crisis origin was not credible. Who would try to steal the tires off the Batmobile? How would that even be possible with Batman's tech? Why would Batman reward such behavior? And stealing tires/hubcaps off cars was *such* a cliched representation of inner city crime by this point it just seemed ridiculous. 3. But the most important reason was we were already well into the "darker, gritter, serious" Batman era. The Dark Knight Returns had already come out. Batman was a brooding loner; vengeance lurking in the shadows. He was doing SERIOUS STUFF. It made NO SENSE to have him hanging around with a brightly colored child while he dispensed justice. The very "idea" of Robin had graduated into Nightwing. Fans just didn't see a new Robin as either necessary nor desirable. So I voted to kill him, and frankly I was surprised the vote was as close as it was. "Daring DC to follow through" was certainly a factor as well. But I also don't remember DC announcing in advance that a vote to save Jason Todd would mean he'd live but they'd still get rid of Robin. If that was an option, the vote might have been different. We did hate Jason Todd, but mostly we hated the idea of Batman still having a Robin, and one with a lazy/ridiculous backstory to boot. And killing him gave the Joker more gravitas, which played into the whole dark, serious, gritty vibe of the time.
Not only (10:10) Batman left KG Beast to die at the start of Starlin's run, but in the same storyline Jason (probably) killed the diplomat's son, Batman let some criminals die as collateral damage in their fight (he feels bad for it, tho, reflecting on how bad the situation involving that case got) - not to mention his attitudes in The Cult, both under mind control and without it. Jim Starlin's Batman and Robin run is very different, the characters are much more human and we are far away from Batgod - Batman as an 100% efficiency machine - territory. Death in the Family, in a way, overshadowed all the other weird and interesting things of the run. I'm not sure I like it, but it is fascinating.
I think the coma angle would have worked and introduce Tim. Maybe Tim could have been revealed to be his half sibling. Jason woke up angry that Bruce gave Tim Robin after what happened to him, leaves Bruce but protect Tim on the outside.
I'm in the Jason was a good Robin camp and annoyed they killed him.
I think thatn would've been too complicated.
If Tim would still be created as Robin-3 I think they would've just used the comatose Jason as Tims biggest clue to finding out Batmans secret identity. After all, Bruce adopts a new boy, suddenly Batman has a younger Robin. Then Bruce Waynes new son gets critically injured in some weird "accident", and suddenly Batman no longer runs around with Robin. Easy then to figure out what would be going on.
Jason should've stayed dead. Bucky too. Resurrecting them just invalidates the weight of the previous stories. And if they *had* to resurrect Jason, they needed a much better excuse than "Superboy Prime punched reality". I mean, come on, the Bat-universe has Lazarus Pits but it took a Superboy Prime punch to resurrect Jason? Maybe someday, Superboy Prime will punch reality again and Jason can go back to his coffin. And, like, how does a normal human with normal human strength break out of a coffin that's been buried and dig his way back out? That can't happen.
I hate that they brought him back to life and fixed Barbs crippled spine. Joker never feels a threat at all now as anything he does will just be undone.
I was only a little kid when all of this went down (Born 1980). I was a HUGE super hero fan with Spider-Man, Hulk, and Batman being my favorite due to their various cartoons and tv shows. I'd been mainly exposed to Batman and Robin through reruns of the Adam West tv series. I realize now that those shows were a huge campy corny joke, but as a little kid, I thought they were awesome and deadly serious. While my brothers all had old comics laying around, for the most part, comic books for me were really hard to come by, so I had no clue Dick Grayson was no longer Robin or that Jason had replaced him. My cousin had gotten Death In The Family and thought it was awesome and showed it to me. I only had time to flip through a few pages and look at the pictures, and was absolutely horrified to see "Dick Grayson" getting beaten to near death by the Joker and then killed in an explosion! I think when I went home after visiting, I went to my room and cried, LOL. Remember, I was only 6 or 7 years old. When it was finally revealed to me that is was Jason Todd who died and not Dick, I was really relieved and kinda forgot about the whole thing until I was able to read the whole thing later in life.
Starlin doesn't really like many of his characters, just based on how many he's offed. However, I was travelling cross-country a lot in this time and had to hit numerous local comic book stores as a result to keep up my reading, and there was a contemporary fan theory that was pretty national-Dennis O'Neil supposedly had DC staffers working in the offices calling the kill number to weight the vote because the death of Robin was worth it in free advertising since every news outlet could be expected to cover the story. Story only had legs because O'Neil had a rep that fit and was still struggling over his handling of Wonder Woman turning the Feminist Movement against her (that stigma still sits for his haters who can be expected to drag it out of the dustheap along with the theory he weighted the Robin death vote using office staff, but some people just don't like O'Neil)
Jason Todd was in a no-win situation.
What do you mean "how powerful Tim was?" I'd argue he still is a powerhouse
I remember being really pissed off that I got my copy of the issue with the 900 numbers to call and vote after the time to call and vote had expired. I don't remember why I got it late, just that I did.
The original version of Jason (Earth-One, red hair, version 1.0, "pre-Crisis" [even though he appeared after Crisis]) was a great character. Everyone forgets that he is the one to defeat Mongal in Alan Moore's "FOR THE MAN WHO HAS EVERYTHING". Not Superman, not Batman, not Wonder Woman, but redhead Janon Todd.
I would love a Bronze Age Jason Todd Omnibus.
Facts !!! 🎉🎉 I can’t believe the public voted Robin - Jason Todd to be “
Offed “
It’s funny, after I read the alternative ending, I thought “they were going to take him off the table regardless!!”
I do find it funny that one of the biggest and most character defining moments in Batman’s history was decided by a call-in number… That would be like if today Catwoman and Batman’s relationship got decided by a tick-tock challenge lol
Was wondering if you was going to do a video on it. Interesting.
This was literally the first comic I read. The second comic I ever read was a later story that had a flashback caused by Batman seeing somebody beating another person with a crowbar...
0:08 "... but that just doesn't _hit_ the same!" 😂
Yeah. Gen Z might say that the popular version of the story really slaps!
in many comics except for a notable role in a Superman Annual, Jason was made to be a rebel and a difficult partner for Batman. He had a few good comics here and there and I liked it when he helped out the New Teen Titans vs Cheshire.
The coma ending reeks of the writers finding a way to permanently retire the character without having the conviction as storytellers to end him outright. It just feels like they would have kept him in the coma indefinitely had they gone that route and decades later, instead of debating whether killing him was the right choice, people would be insisting he should have been killed. Big "sending him to another dimension" energy.
Yeah, the fact that they didn’t see what potential Jason had makes me glad we got what we did. Like Highlander taught us: it’s better to burn out than fade away.
Yeah, I’m definitely one of those die hard Jason post-Crisis/Red Hood fans. I consider Under the Red Hood to be a better story than both The Court of Owls and Hush. Jason just seems to bring out the most interesting aspects of the Batman characters, whether it’s Bruce, Dick, Tim, or even Alfred. He honestly has more of a father-son relationship with Bruce than even Dick has. The expectations and disappointments each has in the other is some of the most compelling material in the Batman canon.
imagine an elseworld story based around the one where jason lives and he just slowly starts detaching himself from bruce and hell maybe working with dick for a bit before ultimately becoming some variant of red hood or something
Back in the 80s there was "outrage" mostly from the non-comic readers who thought of Batman and Robin like in the Adam West Camp TV series or Super Friends. They didn't know there was an other Robin, or even that Batman was a Darker Hero. So that got some angry parents, who got mad at basically nothing.
I was there. I called in five votes for him to die. I don't think there was a limit to how many times you could vote, but since you had to pay per vote that kind of tempered the urge to redial.
In retrospect it was weird. First, people didn't like him because he was too similar to Dick. Then, they didn't like him because he was too different. If they had started pre-Crisis with a backstory for Jason that didn't copy Dick's, I wonder what the reception would have been.
I was there when these issues came out. As soon as I heard about the vote, I knew Jason was a goner. If for no other reason than readers didn't believe they would do it. And there wasn't much praise for Jason in the letters pages.
(Weird. All my typing turned red. Then when I posted, the red text disappeared.)
Interesting doesn't always means a good thing. As the things that make a character can limit them greatly, especially in fan circles. Characters Batman and Jason can feel stuck in the most popular versions that can make them feel stagnate or worse Edgy.
I definitely think he should've stayed dead. Red Hood is a good comics character, but the old cliche of "nobody ever stays dead" would be good to avoid for this one.
with Robins, it’s best to look at the hair…each had different hairstyles:cow lick, double curls, floppy semi-spoked, blonde, and short spiked
and i do count Stephany as a Robin even though she was short-lived
The coma version to me wouldn't work as well as for the story arc of Red Hood and definitely not be as memorable. I feel like the coma version like when something is edited by another person than the creator for videos and loses the meaning of the message because of the ways it has to alter minor parts, while many skilled artists adapt their own work can work when it's a done by others misses the message often.
Seeing Adrienne was an emotional gut punch cause I knew ahem very well and thursday was the anniversary of her death
I was one of the 10K fans who voted. But I only called that number once, I swear 😂
I voted for Jason to die because I wanted to see a major shake-up. Batman & Robin was such an institution so killing a Robin was inconceivable
Also, I thought the stories were setting-up Jason for a major comeuppance. I got an impression that DC was going to remove Jason anyway and just wanted to do it in a spectacular fashion
I could go on and on your getting it right though.
I think if we did get the Jason lives story we would have gotten a villain arch for sooner than under the red hood story and Jason would have been a villain for longer
I was around to vote (thumbs down!); my reasoning was that, narratively, Robin's function was to keep Batman grounded, which Todd failed to accomplish in a BIG way.
Not going to lie, when you said "Never forget how popular Tim was for a time" it did break my heart a little bit considering that he is my favourite Robin and the one I grew up with to see what has become of his reputation amongst more modern readers has been pretty frustrating over the years.
Even though I grew up with Dick, I always liked how Tim was different from the first two, right up until he wasn't. Killing Tim's father took away some of what made him special.
DC has tried so hard to make people forget Tim so Damian can be the Robin.. and they just don't have any idea what to do with Tim.. all because they needed to give Morrison carte blanch to do whatever they wanted to do.
Tim is still my fav Robin and probably always will be. Honestly my fav comic character, full stop.
+1 for team "Tim will always be our Robin!"
Tim was a lot more fleshed-out than any of the others, he was relatable and likable and not afraid of telling Bruce to stop being an idiot when he needed it most…he deserved more time as Robin but of course that wasn’t happening
Shocked to hear about Jason's mother.
I'm surprised this element of the story is never brought up.
You'd think some writer would deal with the fallout of that.
Gotta say the storyline where Jason may have killed the diplomats son is one of the best Robin stories, and was in it's own way very humanizing. Maintaining control and emotional balance when you witness horrific crimes is not possible for most people and Jason was very human.
"But that just doesn't hit the same"
No, I don't imagine it does. An explosion does a lot more damage than just blunt force trauma like a crowbar.
This just made my day better
Jason is basically the first step in a long line of decisions of DC struggling to deal with the whole Kid Sidekick idea, Essentially Half the Bathouse felt Bruce needed to outgrow the Robin concept while others felt it was too popular a concept to abandon 'IE Dick for a time was a Titan's character not a Batman character' Jason's death was the Height of the anti-Robin fervor among creative
i don’t buy that Teen Titans character claim, he was being coddled then due to the cartoon shows so wasn’t used as much or in depth with either the Batman books or the the Titan books
@@bostonrailfan2427 Death in the Family was 1989. The Titans cartoon was the early 2000s. Try to keep up please.
@@bostonrailfan2427no at tht time period dick popularly in the titans made him ease away from the bat universe decade prior to the cartoon n when the cartoon came out he was a strong character with strong ties to the batverse n titans verse
@@malachibaskette908 even in Teen Titans he wasn’t the main character, he was there but didn’t do anything. it’s more like he was in limbo because the writers wrote him into a corner and couldn’t get out without hurting one or the other before getting a new character to take the Robin name and letting Dick be free of it all.
it’s no shock that once Jason was created they had more fir Dick in the Titans and directly led to the Starfire and Donna Troi arcs
@@bostonrailfan2427 yhus make no sense. If anything dick would still be a sidekick if it wasn’t for the titan series. Tht laid the grownwork for him to be Wht he is today
I agree. Jason’s darker and more violent characterization as Robin makes him far more interesting. They could’ve done more stories showing Jason’s darker edge leading up to his death. Somewhat untapped potential.
I will admit the UNDER THE RED animated movie with Jason Todd voice by Jensen Ackles is good.
Let's be honest Jason Todd's post-Crisis origin story was better than the original origin story
Idk I feel like Jason as a whole could be more interesting if he starts off rather good and whole heartedly believing in Batman’s mission. His death and resurrection changing his views into what they are now. He did everything he was supposed to do and what he get for it? Betrayed by his own mother, murdered by the Joker and unavenged (if that’s a word) by his Father. It would paint his progression to Red hood as a tragedy rather than an inevitability. That being said I haven’t read much of Jason so that might be changing the story too much.
Nope making him darker and more violent was the reason they kept blaming him for his death. It’s also why he’s being so terribly written now
The fuck does darker even mean man? 99% of the time somebody claims a story is dark, it's usually some juvenile horseshit like superficial drug addiction or a woman gets raped in her one and only page
I kind of wonder if some people voted to kill him because they thought there shouldn’t be a Robin at all.
there were…
Batman was in a dark, loner stage...a boy with pixie boots and a neon yellow cape didn't fit. I like Jason as Robin and even I agreed with this.
Death in the Family, the Killing Joke, and the Death of Superman was when I parted ways with DC. It wasn't just that the stories were needlessly dark and brutal, but for the purpose of boosting sales. Such dishonesty in writing, along with the really bad writing of it all, was too much for me.
Their purpose was to boost sales. They could have done that with a fun, cool story, as Marvel was doing with Secret Wars and the Infinity Saga. Instead, the Joker shot and sexually assaulted Barbara Gordon--in front of her father no less--and beat Robin with a crow bar, joking afterward about how messy all the blood was. Then inventing Doomsday out of nothing, and him smashing out of the ground (??), and make his way to Metropolis, because he saw a road sign...!?
It was all so superfluous, so completely unnecessary, and cynical of the writers and fans who voted to kill Jason. Worse yet, it was dumb. I'm not talking corny or cheesy or absurd, but without any engaging, intelligent writing, except for how "messy" it was.
I pretty much agree. I’d say Death in the Family was the only one that holds up at all. The only thing I’ll give credit to Killing Joke for is that Barbara is way more compelling as Oracle than Batgirl. But since that doesn’t happen until basically the last panel, I’m not giving Moore a pass for his shit taste in storytelling.
I remember that, lots of fans wanted the Dark Knight Batman, more angry and brutal, and that part of their thinking was Jason needed to die to reach that point. Instead, we saw a Batman in mourning, and THAT ticked them off! I was one of the votes to keep Jason alive, and I read an editorial crushed by this being what the fans wanted. Divided fandoms go way back, lol!!!
I think that Jason dying was the best decision. Him eventually coming back makes more of an impact for Bruce than if he was just in a coma. However I feel like Dc has just glossed over the fact that his OWN MOTHER betrayed him...
Death in the Family and Under the Red Hood really cemented my love for Jason. I liked the possibility of exploring how different socioeconomic and individual character status may affect the way adults deal with kids. Dick's origin is tragic, yeah, but his life was so full of love and wonder. He had some rough moments with Bruce, but he practically rose himself as and his parents memory was forever a positive one. There were more positive memories and feelings attached to his childhood than bad ones, whereas the second version of Jason was, for all purposes that matter, an abandoned child in a context of violence and a heavy lack of love, and Bruce doesn't know how to deal with that; Alfred doesn't either, so Jason's trauma and anger goes unresolved and the older (more hormonal and independent) he becomes, the least he's able to manage his righteous fury. Jason needed to be pulled out of the violent setting that was triggering him, he needed a different space to heal, he needed love, affection and a chance to learn how to fight injustice outside of beating people up at night; however, Bruce didn't do that, he simply blamed Jason for his own upbringing and lack of self control, and Jason was killed looking for what he truly needed: love.
And he didn't find it.
I dislike how much of the narrative seems to try to victim blame Jason who, let's remember, was a child under Bruce's ward, and even though Batman himself recognises it was "his greatest mistake", they phrase it in ways that still shift the blame to Jason imo. I wish they acknowledged that Bruce had an upper class bias that he didn't acknowledge while trying to take in a child from the violent streets of Gotham, and that lead to disaster. He also had loving parents that did right by him, the same could be said of Dick and Tim. Batman could've learned about those crucial differences and apply his newfound knowledge to change how he combats crime (I know that Steph "failed" as Robin because the writers used her as a Joke, but we could reframe it as Bruce not getting how having a lower class upbringing with an unloving, violent parent requires a different approach for him when dealing with damaged teenagers. He failed Steph too, not the other way around.)
I wish those differences, were the basis for Jason developing a different moral code, not simply the fact that he died and came back (which, at this point, haven't all the Robins done?).
As of late, Jason's character seems stuck, always coming back to the Joker and the crowbar. His morality and ethics are stuck in a loop of "do whatever Batman says or rebel against Batman's methods" that lack either depth or integrity.
Anyway, I appreciate those stories for what they did and for the ideas that sparked in me. Red Hood will forever have a special place in my heart for this.
I do get the feeling he probably would have come back as a similar character to Red Hood at some point if they had gone with the coma. But like you said we, as the audience, are somewhat biased because that's the world we saw.
I do hope if we get Jason as Robin in movies or a tv series at some point his character as a darker Robin is explored and developed more before they inevitably turn him into Red Hood.
Also the part his mother played in his death definitely doesn't get the attention it deserves. I do love the Under The Red Hood movie, but it's a shame that they cut her out.
Edit: also, I like the idea of Batman doubting himself and starting to believe that Jason isn't cut out to be Robin, while Dick actually has faith in Jason and sees something Bruce doesn't. I think that would be interesting.
I feel like a "robin lives" version would still have him become Red Hood (or some variation of it) but likely skipping some if not all of his villain era (ideally replaced with a lot of self reflection on how he ended up in that situation and what he wants to do going forward, whether he should be Robin, etc etc). I think with a good writer it could have worked, but would not have been as dramatic as the version we got instead and much more prone to mishandling (imo).
he’s more like their Vigilante character, so maybe he takes that mantel up instead of Red Hood
Something I don't think is talked about or used much in comics is that Killer Croc also debuted with Jason and if I remember correctly was also the reason Jason's parents originally died pre-crisis
It's probably not talked about as much because most of Jason's origin was a copy of Dick Grayson's origin minor differences and the one most known now of him stealing the tires from the Batmobile just made him stand out more.
@@The_Phantasm you're probably right
I find those first stories with Killer Croc are a straight out proto Bane. Killer Croc was initially portrayed as this absurdly strong criminal mastermind getting control of crime in Gotham that could match Batman with brain and brawl.
Following stories fully abandoned the intellect part to make him more and more of a beast.
Who thought it was a good idea to give Jason such a great modern updated Robin costume only to give him Dick’s old costume?
There should be some serious controversy over the vote. While much of the info has been pulled from the internet, an attorney in California set up an auto-dialer, and admitted to having it make a call every 30 seconds, spending $750 (that is $0.50 every 30 seconds, for 1500 minutes, or 25 hours of the 35 hours of the call in period). There is no question that nearly 1/3rd of the votes to kill Jason Todd were just one angry Lawyer, nearly 15% of all votes came from one person (yes, it is possible other people voted multiple times, but one person seriously slanted the votes... when the margin was a mere 72 votes, that is a huge swing).
I just realized, we probably would have never gotten Tim Drake had they went in a different direction. It's likely we may have gotten a new Robin had he stayed in the coma, but it would have been an entirely new character. Would be curious as to who that would have been
We would have another Robin for certain...even DC finds it difficult to market murdered teenagers.
That's what confuses me. Whether it's Jason or Tim or Damian or Duke...DC WILL HAVE A ROBIN character.
So killing a character does not change this.
Honestly happy with how things turned out. Jason ended up being his own character and not a reskin of Dick
Jason is a character I've always been able to enjoy, he just is a character that is so interesting to. Tim will always be a favorite Robin, but Jason is a close second and the rebirth run of pairing him with Artimus and Bizarro is for an all time favorite series. That team really elevated all of those character for me.
Jason is one of my favorite characters in comics. His history is part of what makes him so interesting. Ever since i first read Death in the Family, I can’t help but feel like the blame Jason gets and continues to get for what happened to him is so cruel. That being said I think part of the tragedy of the story is also how it was determined. I don’t think this kind of vote could ever be had today, and in the culture of comics today where character death rarely sticks, nobody would take it seriously anyway.
I don't think the coma is an indication of Jason being sidelined, it's simply that whichever way they went, the nature of a monthly comic means that the next issue would already be in production and likely the next couple of issues would have already been written, so they needed a reason to not have Jason present if he wasn't dead.
My grandma bought me a copy of Batman 441 off a spinner rack in a mall bookstore when I was 8 years old and it blew me away.
It was my first introduction to Two-Face, which is plenty intense for a child, but I also learned in that issue that Dick Grayson had grown up and was some hero named Nightwing and that Robin was dead.
I was numb with shock from reading that comic. It stayed with me for days and days. When 441 was recollected in the "A Lonely Place of Dying" trade paperback, I begged and begged Grandma to buy it for me, but collected paperbacks (even cheap ones on newsprint) were more than she wanted to pay.
I bought a copy for myself 12 years later. Satisfaction at last!
As someone who's fairly familiar with Jason todd (seen under the red hood, titans, games ect) i never knew that the original comic had his mother betray him because that doesnt happen in most other iterations. Thats sickening. And makes it worse. =/
When Jason had red hair I used to make jokes about Batman’s new? sidekick was Little Archie! Jason wearing that old costume with the pixie boots was mistake number one! Dick Grayson should’ve retired it when he left for college way back in the late sixties! Also Jason got his ass handed to him in the Legends miniseries by an angry mob and also got brutally beaten by the Mad Hatter in Detective Comics so a pattern was starting to form because at least it seemed to me that writers didn’t know what do with him and then what? Bringing Jason back? I dunno?? And in recent years you now have too many Robins in how short of a time? Tim Drake was well established by Chuck Dixon over quite awhile (120-125 issues) Lame editors and even lamer writers who don’t know or care how to develop/renovate characters in an interesting and creative manner except through vapid events and rudderless gimmicks reboot after repeated reboot! And that’s how you drive off readers because characters have way too much baggage and these daze at DC it ALL matters! Nope 👎
Agreed. The pixie boots looked so silly in the 1980s.
I always believe in the three death rules in comic. Jason, Barry, and Gwen. Thought about Hal but he was done wrong....but those three deaths should never change
Jason did nothing wrong
I like my Batman flawed. Not a perfect person. It is weird, given what Bruce has been through, to make him Mr. Perfect.
I love the way Jason is now, with the hair streak. Batman's greatest failure. Him being just like Dick is boring.
FYI: Anybody notice the Sasha hair change? I know I did. We should take a poll of which wig Sasha should wear next! And which ones should never be seen again. Lol.
Favorite quote:"We can only speculate. So let's do that, it's fun."
I voted for him to live, and also much preferred the original version. Before this period Batman was not a total jerk, and the idea of him turning on Dick and firing him is like peanut butter turning against jelly, or Tom telling Jerry he wants to go solo. Batman was always a good guy to the people he knew and he was recast as this guy nobody would even want to be around. He wouldn't take in this obnoxious crook kid who did not have the character to be trusted, Then add in Batgirl getting shot, the whole mistake of trying to paste the DKR 50 yr old failed Batman onto his 30 yr old doing well self, and it was just not the same Batman anymore, and I stopped buying after about 20 yrs of being the biggest Batfan I knew. I was 17 in 83, started reading around 72 at 6 yrs old, this just was not for me anymore; I like to enjoy my comics. For comparison's sake I loved the Gerry Conway interlocked books era a few years before Jason was introduced, and also loved the Neal Adams era, the Haney B&B days, and love to this day Adam West as well as Michael Keaton and Christian Bale.
The coma ending reminds me of what happened to the X-men mid-80s. Half the team was written off, either ambiguously missing or dead in Rachel’s case or crippled or in a coma like Colossus, Nightcrawler and Kitty. They all showed back up several months or a couple years later and I still say that the Fantastic 4 vs X-men limited series that dealt with that fallout was some of the best writing ever in comics, but it was still obvious what was happening editorial-wise.
I like the original version better. Jason is probably a much more interesting character for it. Unless.. Elseworlds time! He survives the explosion but loses the use of his legs. Still wanting to help Batman he becomes Oracle! In this same timeline, Harley Quinn deduces the identity of Batman from her years of interacting with his villains at Arkham Asylum and repeatedly trying to profile the Caped Crusader. She finds the bat cave and eventually becomes Batgirl 😂😂
With the coma he could have woken up having lost everything memory wise from the time Batman found him and he could have gone back to his old life. Eventually getting flashbacks of joker beating him and that along with his already rebellious and criminal nature causing him to become red hood and those visions making him go after joker. A longer way of getting there but could still be done.
If they hadn’t made Jason such a A-hole but simply kept the same design (red hair and circus background) and tweaked things here and there so he was still a good boy but maybe his parents died in the previous year (he got away somehow) and he had been living on the streets stealing just to survive but was not a messed up kid yet. Keep the same he earned the role and Dick was glad to hand the mantle over to him part. He could have been done in a way people could like him and still he wasn’t a clone of Dick Grayson. It also would be. Good transitionary Robin between Dick and Tim. He wouldn’t be 100% same as Dick But wouldn’t be a total 180 from him either. You get the familiar parts of Dick with some differences to make him his own person.
I like Jason Todd as the street kid trying to steal the tires of the batmobile, also he does stand out frome the Robin's because of his attitude and he died and came back!
What Robin has done that...?
Yes! Change is hard, but Jason Todd was a unique character and him dying made his comeback great. Because he was the Robin no one liked, but loved having him back!😂😂🤷♂️👍
Good to know that comics fans were always the worst...
And the most misunderstanding of the characters they’re reading about, especially in the case of Jason.
When is Uncle Ben coming back as a villain? It's on high time it happens.
I mean everyone else seems to get a Carnage symbiote, why not him?
Still remember my cousin egging me on to call in for Jason's death. Even more vividly, I recall the beating my dad gave me when that months phone bill came in.
Hated him at the time, even more so when he came back. Have grown to appreciate his place in the mythos.
At the time, I voted to keep Jason alive, and the results shocked me. I felt sure the voting had been rigged, or that people didn't really think DC would go through with it.
I wasn't heavily into Batman at the time, as TNG had only debuted a year earlier and it was a year before the movie came out.
Looking back, I'm actually certain the vote was rigged by people who wanted the character killed, half of those because they hated Jason and half just wanting the high of deciding someone's fate, even a fictional character. It would be interesting to see the outcome of that vote if they'd had the level if instant fan interaction as we do today.
I was only fourteen in 1988, and not into DC Comics like I was with Marvel X-Men and New Mutants. But I think the post-Crisis Jason Todd was better as he was rewritten to be more than merely a Dick Grayson clone and had not only his own distinct personality and problems, but loads of potential for setting up a future that was clearly already on track to put him at odds with Batman. I think Jason Todd post-Crisis was written to be a potential future criminal or anti-hero. Killing the character off was a mistake, but if he was going to be killed off and then resurrected, the animated version of the resurrection (Under the Red Hood) was the better one as it was nowhere near as silly as Superboy Prime punching through the walls of the universe and having ripple effects on reality within the DC continuity.
I really enjoy Jason Todd as Red Hood and I really admire his journey to get there. I like the hero/antihero thing he has depending on what you read/watch and I find him fascinating. I don't think he would have gotten there if he hadn't of died and been resurrected. That has become such a core part of his character and makes him unique to the other Robins.
What's interesting about Jason's apparent murder of a criminal by tossing him off a building is that the Golden Age Robin murders two criminals by knocking them off steel girders in his first appearance. The difference is that when Earth-2 Dick caused people to fall to their deaths, it was depicted as heroic, whereas with Jason it was depicted as a character flaw.
A fair point, but the Sensational Character Find of 1940 was introduced a scant 11 issues of Detective Comics after The Bat-Man himself let a man fall into a vat of chemicals in HIS first outing ("A fitting end for his kind"). This was all retconned by the same creators who, as they were fleshing out the characters in real time, decided that Batman & Robin not only should not kill, but that it should be a foundational part of their characters.
This is a total tangent, but Bill Finger, who wrote The Case of the Chemical Syndicate in 1939 and the Joker's first appearance in Batman #1 the following year, was the first one who came up with the Joker having fallen into a vat of chemicals as the Red Hood, as first told in Detective #168, in 1951. I do wonder if Finger was consciously making a referendum on his own portrayal of The Bat-Man being so callous about a man falling to his death in a chemical vat in his first appearance, by making the origin of his most deadly enemy being a fall into a chemical vat that he survives, and holds Batman responsible for.
Leadership of the Legion of Super-Heroes was typically decided by reader poll.
All it takes is one crowbar to have a bad day.
I liked the original, Grayson-copy Jason Todd.
I'm an old school fan, so I don't believe anyone should make drastic, permanent changes to the status quo of iconic characters like Superman, Spider-Man, Wonder Woman, Batman, and Robin. Having anyone but Grayson as Robin dilutes the Batman mythos, and makes bringing in new readers a somewhat more difficult task. (You'll notice that in all the TV series, Robin is -- with very few exceptions -- Dick Grayson. The producers are aware that "everyone" -- the "normal," non-fans out there -- don't know who Jason is (or Tim, or Damian, etc.), and this could get in the way of them watching and enjoying their show.) The creation of Jason set the stage for even more alterations to the mythos, and is one of the reasons Batman's lore is becoming more and more impenetrable. Fans can't even agree who Robin is anymore (or Batgirl, or Spider-Man, or...). The simpler, established lore with the smaller Bat-family, (or Super-family, or Spider-Family, or Wonder-family, or...) helps make it easier for new readers to get up to speed. The non-Grayson Robins, and all the other extraneous Bat-fam members need to be retconned out of DC's main timeline to help potential new readers come aboard. If DC insists on Grayson continuing as Nightwing, they can keep the Robin trademark alive by doing a World's Finest-like flashback series starring Bruce and Dick as The Dynamic Duo.
I prefer the death version than the coma version.
The death angle had more impact while the coma angle felt more like an excuse to put Jason on the shelf for a long time because it looks & sounded like they really had no idea what to do with him next.
And Jason coming back to life & becoming a violent vigilante makes sense considering his full of rage personality.
Him taking on the role of Red Hood worked also & he's definitely the most well known version of that role today.
Not the first to make this statement I suppose, but it doesn't change the fact the irony that Jason Todd's death is what gave him a new life in DC history.
To quote beast boy on the fable vigilante ahem ahem " I still think you're Jason Todd!" Let suppose Jason does wake up from his coma. The other branch of this in my opinion is clearly Red X
Dude,Jason's mom set him up to the Joker:DARK! I mean REALLY DARK! Okay,how i see the writers on how Bruce handles Jason,well,how any adult deal with a juvenile adolescent:you take your time.And at this time,Jason wasn't given enough.And he wasn't a bad Robin compared to the others because at that time,his story was different than the others so to me,it's like what do you expect from an abandoned child?So,i think he may not be popular as Grayson but he wasn't meant to be,Jason just needed to be Robin.To me,the death was unfair because eventually Batman did start over and he would again and again.Side Note:The Ivan Drago Meme,Cracks me up!😆LOL!
You mentioned a lot of reactions I had when I went to read the OG Death in the Family comics and post-Crisis Jason. It's weird seeing modern Red Hood comics and the like give the vibe of 'he was always a bad seed and bad- clearly set for villainy, a Bad Robin' versus reading the comics where he's complicated and interesting, also incredibly sympathetic.