MONSTER Company Expects ME to Machine Parts on OLD Machines
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- Опубліковано 21 бер 2022
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#CNC #Machining #Machinist - Наука та технологія
That feeling when the thumbnail that's supposed to be an example of an outdated machine is 10× better than the ancient Bridgeport I use daily.
I love the belt driven Bridgeport I use at work but what I wouldn’t give for a ProtoTrak
Be careful you’re liable to offend your Bridgeport.
@@Xanadon222 I bought a proto trak 20 years ago and have made about 800 k on it from 1.5 to 2 days a week
@@majormalfunction5101 I'm offended ; ) because I'm from Bridgeport, but more importantly, I'd love to have one. I regret not grabbing one for $125 at an estate sale a few years ago. It had a DRO and a PILE of tooling. It'll haunt me til the day I perish.
Bringing more than a resume goes for any profession that requires skills rather than a degree. I just recently was hired as a solder technician for a high tech R&D company. They had no idea what they were doing. When they called me in for an interview, I brought with me a full tool set to solder just about anything they could throw at me, along with a few personal projects I had built over the years. The projects I brought were more complex than the soldering test they had setup for me to do. With the job offer, they also offered me a higher salary than they were advertising with the job. Once I was hired on, they gave me a rather large budget to purchase all new tools and equipment. Great company to work for!
That implies that people who do have the skills but can't afford to buy tools don't deserve to work
@@chas1878 Nah, it may be a benefit, but he does not imply that people who don't afford tools don't deserve work. You could bring projects, take a welding test with their tools or show pictures of your work.
@@Simon-ow1lu well said. You can show your skills in many ways. I was just sharing my story.
Be careful judging "old equipment" as being inefficient.
I know of more than a few, very precision, machine shops that use what people would consider "old machines" to produce very close tolerance parts.
If you design efficient work holding solutions, with repeatable, fast turn around part changes, you can bang out some of your parts on much less expensive "old equipment", and save your 5 axis machining center hours for the jobs that require that kind of machine.
There is a place in a well balanced shop for both.
Another good video.
Take care
i saw this and immediately thought of old timers. i sure enjoy when a business leans on them for decades.
This is the biggest benefit of the skills gap for young people. Relatively basic computer skills can really impress some of the old timers and give them a good reason to spend time with you and teach you the tricks of the trade they have developed over a life time. It's a win win for everyone
Nobody should learn CNC, much less CAM, without first learning fundamentals on Manual machines. Afterall, the first CNC Machines were built on knee mills and engine lathes.
@@daveomacron4301 100% agree. In taking night CNC classes, I'm learning backwards. It's obvious to me that the younger people in the class have no real concept of what goes on in the big, magical 5 axis in terms of how youd go about it on a manual. THe foundation and fundamentals are lost. Thankfully, I have some concept because Im 100 years old.
I used old machines all my working life (long retired now) But they got overhauled and slides skimmed every 5 years 3 for the shift machines, old Webster and bennet vertical borer still spot on . cost 10% price of a new machine but worth it .
That's funny I work for a multi billion dollar company and we still have a shop with a 1978 bridgeport knee mill. Fully manual. And a 1947 davenport 12 inch lathe fully manual. We run 40 hours a week sometimes 50 hours a week on those 2 machines and corporate won't get new stuff because "they can't justify the cost"
@@billshiff2060 maybe but we are a low production shop. If I get an order of 10+ parts that is alot of parts. They once gave me a job where they wanted me to face two sides then drill and tap a 1/4- 20 in the center of the part and there were 100 of them and they wanted me to do them on the 1947 lathe. I laughed at them. And told them it would be cheaper to buy them and it was due to the fact the company they had make them were set up to do that kind of work.
I run a prototype shop that makes parts for science experiments of the International Space Station and I use the Trak BPM every day. There is just no replacement, in my view, for a semi manual mill in a prototype shop. If you’re engineers are designing parts that require some crazy 5 axis setups, they could probably be better at their job. I worked at SpaceX in Texas before this and their machine shop is a laser cutter, a waterjet, 2 Haas Vf’s, and some old prototraks. Most of the parts looked like they were designed and built in a competent person’s garage in 1973 for their dune buggy. The key word here is prototype. You make it and give it to the engineers and they come back wanting 1 hole bigger and 50 thou off one side. Easy Peasy in the Trak. How are you even gonna put it back in the 5-axis mill? I make one off parts in the manual lathe all the time. It doesn’t even have a DRO. The engineers will stop by with the material and I can get the part done in the time it takes to walk back to the office. If they want 500 of something, we send it out.
I worked in a machine shop that had all war production machines. The newer machines were not as well built. I ran all the machines at one time or another, but was happiest running the old gisholt lathe.
I’m gonna chime in here again. The rule of anything PROTOTYPE is "make it work, then make it pretty". If my engineers were sending out 5 axis prototype parts cut out of billet that could be 2 water jet parts held together with cap screws, I’d be pissed and looking for new engineers.
I've run outdated and new machines for 13 years, both have their place I think. I did pick up a 3040 cnc router last weekend for 500 bucks. Gonna crash course learn some programming now, thanks for the encouragement!
hopefully less crash, more course and learn
I just sold my CNC router for 500. To a broker. Never used it.
I have been machining since the days of HSS , grinding a tool bit. I love the cnc machines and my shop had a few. The guys that programed them had no idea how to run a manual machine and sruggled on an event program tray mill.
You are spot on. I always tell my guys to take videos and pics of the projects they take to build their resumes.
There's always for and against with modern equipment/ old equipment. A modern shop that does not have at least one Manual Mill/ Lathe will sometimes shy away from once off/small jobs and that can be a mistake. A company can take the view that if you don't want the small jobs why should they give you the big jobs plus setup times can be less on less on manual machines eg a bandsaw.
We only do work on cnc lathes and mills but there's no fucking chance we will ever sell off our manual lathe and manual mill.
We rarely use the mill and the lathe is old and beat up, but we use it quite a lot =)
@@innominatum9906 What do you guys use the manual machines for? actual work? or making fixtures?
@@innominatum9906 Well if you need to make a hole and fast what's better than a lathe?
@@danielreardon6453 For "touch ups", light simple work. We use it to chamfer long bars of steel that's been milled. Sometimes using the manual is easier when facing off the second side of a part, because you can better control the clamping pressure compared to the CNCs.I give the apprentice some easy parts on the lathe as well so he learns the basics before being on his own on the CNCs.
So we do use it, but never really quote any work directly to the manual machines =)
@@MrCoffeypaul Exactly
Bunch of old stuff where I'm at now. I am operating our newest drill because the others retired. New owners next month! Hoping for the best.
I like the older manual machines. They're a part of history. They have their place for one time jobs or parts that doesn't quite fit on a CNC machine.
A machine is a tool that will help you. But it's always the man behind the old/new machine is the most important.
A company worth a billion dollars has been doing something right. There will always be a place for manual machines , get over it .
And new machines often break and are over sensitive ...
New equipment is nice however a one piece order with a simple part screams manual machine. I work in a shop that gets lasered profile material that has to be tapped. The answer is a radial arm drill press that was manufactured in January of 1932!
I worked for a a few companies like that in Ohio through the 90's. One boss told me. "anything I don't understand will not be done in this shop". A few years later he was bankrupt.
In this Hi-Tech world we live in 25 years old technology is like the stone age.
The Idea behind manual and older equipment is that the machinist knows of the machine's capabilities as well as its limitations and idiosyncrasies.
We can lead a horse to water, but we can't make him drink!
I am dealing with the same situation now. I look like a superstar even tho I'm using the most basic approach of using mastercam, which I had to teach myself. I'm a Cimatron guy originally. I get super excited seeing programming tips from you guys but unfortunately the shop I'm currently at dosnt pay maintenance for mastercam. We are using x5 version rn. This shouldn't be an excuse for myself not to learn more but Its difficult to be creative in my approach if I cant following along with this old limited version of mastercam. It would be great to see more tips from you guys that can be utilized by any version on any software. Thanks guys
An inefficient shop buys Mastercam, not because it's good but because they heard it was good. A video is made about this difficult situation by a company that is sponsored by Mastercam.
Anyone see a problem here?
Imagine if there was an efficient CAM with a modern workflow in the picture instead of Mastercam. Might be a better opportunity for everyone involved. Esprit TNG or Edgecam both have what Mastercam doesn't... an efficient workflow.
Sorry Jon, but independent fact checkers have determined that your comment is incorrect. Having used nearly every CAM platform, perhaps you can tell me how “efficient” TNG’s workflow is. Like having a seperate file for every machine and every operation, whereas a single Mastercam file can have 100 machines and 1,000 operations including lathe, mill, edm, millturn, and more. THAT sir is an efficient workflow
@@barrysetzer No independent fact checking has been done. This is a bold faced lie by an obvious Mastercam fanboi.
Then answer my questions
I literally gave you examples of why you are 100% incorrect. Not to ARGUE with you, but to see where youre coming from. I could call you names far more offensive than “fan boy,” but i didnt.
Im still in that situation. Huge multi billion dollar company and only a few years they got a couple vertical Haas machines..This company makes a billion dollars profit in a quarter..The parts can be complex which sometimes would be better suited to 5 axis machines. But we do what we have to do..
A lot of times companies will have you come in just to try to get some information off of you and never freaking hire anybody.
Which is the precision of the sinter machine? What tolerance can arrive after oven?
The old vs new dichotomy is always a fascinating topic.
My industry relies heavily on plaster negative casts & positive molds but we've been transitioning into 3d image capture and cnc produced models for a decade or 2 now.
I personally got to upgrade from a 3-axis lathe to a 7-axis robot with about a weeks worth of vender-provided training between the two over the last 5 years or so.
Figure I'm probably darn close to being a proficient machinist by now; accurate to near 1/16" on a slow day!
Question for the real operators though;
how come my cam software can't lay out multiple bends when processing a bent cylinder operation?
Are computers just that fragile a tool stil?
Is it because of how my workpiece is offset from the rotating axis on its turntable?
Is there just no good reason to make a single operation that complex when you can add secondary instances of the same thing but different?
Bonus question:
What can be done with expanded polyurethane dust?
That's one of the things I build best.
Not many prototype shops left in my area..We design engineer in house and prototype in China.
I ran into the owner of the prototype company we used to hire last fall.He basically retired and now works taking care of a golf course..Cadillacs and expensive suits to Hyundai and Dickies…Nothing wrong with that,but if you’re not moving ahead,you’re falling behind..
@@billshiff2060 the shop is owned by the investors..and that’s how they tell you it’s done.
@@billshiff2060 yup.not my call..I work for a global corp.that answers to a board of directors and investors.The only companies that I’ve worked for that are 100% USA are in the defense industry for obvious reasons.Average working class American understand all to well the outcome of sending work overseas.But the majority voters in the USA have a different opinion.Skilled workers imho are the backbone of the country,but we’re in the minority.
It was a 1-off prototype shop. CNC shops are for production work.
Not anymore...We can get production design quality from our prototype shop.and fast.almost to fast lol..Our advantage is,we can design engineer and send cnc out in less time than ever from in house.CAE is our pre prototype. We have in-house 3D printing as well..The days of single skill employees are done..
We've done prototypes for skunk works. No way you could even dream doing those parts on a maunual
False, we do one offs all day every day, all on CNC's.
@@PlinkingLePew You CAN do prototype work on a the most advanced CNC machines, of course, but that’s not the question.
@Reach41 you literally said "CNC shops are for production work". This statement is false, there are countless CNC shops for 1 off Prototyping.
How strange they managed to build the biggest nukes and went to the moon without much CNC stuff. Perhaps prototyping works faster on manual machine? Or at least NC machines that are close to manual, ie. Makino KE55, Deckel FP-NC, Schaublin CCN....
But you're Chuck Norris and can crank a perfect arc on a manual mill.
We wouldn't have Mazaks or Maquinos without Bridgeports.
I would think that the machine would/could be set up for a particular job.
And you wouldn't have to set up another machine and change specks for a part the old PAID FOR machine has.
Wild guess for me not being a machinist.
Some older machines are tuffer.
So impressive!
Man that's awesome Man always found this stuff interesting, u probably could of name your price an told them exactly what they needed for new equipment an ull take this company too we're they want to be an beyond!!!
Thanks for making me feel outdated. 🤣
LOL same
Admission is the first step.
@@wannabecarguy I fully admit it. Sad thing is I’m learning how much I can push a ProtoTRAK equipped Bridgeport and I’m almost milling as hard as the CNC department at my job…
Thanks all days video upload UA-cam so nice 👍 🌺 good working and your Logo ,🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅
What software do you use for cnc programming?
I am not efficient and I'm perfectly fine with that.
I CAN make the part,it's all that matters to me.
I guess it come down to how the company chooses to spend its money . I look at all this stuff as what they are tools , some companies spend more for these tools then others .
You should have brought that company with you as a customer.
at least it seems like he wanted to change something and knew he wasn't the guy to do it. too many people are stuck in their way of thinking AND don't want to go with the times. too bad you didn't take the job, would've loved to hear a story about how you got them into the 21st century.
In Germany it's very common that big companies use only old outdating machines. I work for on of the biggest construction company's in Germany with 2 billion sales volumen. We make very complex stuff, but have only 1 cnc machin in our whole companies and we are spread in 13 different countries. Our factory is big as 15 soccer fields. And if we get a "new" machine, it's from 1960 and this happenes very often. But I have some mates in other company's like mine and it's the same there. Only the small companies invest in modern cnc machines
how does that make any sense though. Are you making the same parts again and again or is it all different everytime?
@@Mr30friends Very different for sure. Even some spare parts for machines we produce ourselves because its cheaper, than buing it from the machine manufactura. We build from wind turbines to bridges to halls for other companies.
I have correct me a bit, we make many different parts, but also the same parts again. It depends on what we are building. For wind turbines we make mostly the same parts again and again, but for bridges we make special parts, bc every bridge is different
@@LesbianSponge And it still isnt worth it to invest in automated equipment even for the repeat parts? I mean those automated equipment are probably even made a few km away from you if you are in germany.
@@Mr30friends I am only a worker from 6500. They arent interested in us, so long the sales volumen doesnt drop. Its hard to believe but what should I do. But I will leave the company in the past years, to many dump bosses and bad work times
Yup, I don't have any certificate but I can use a laser machine..
Sinker trodes with no flush.
We have a Meuser lathe made in "West" Germany. I keep trying to get it scrapped. Fuck that thing.
Spend $35k on a Trak mill or $699k on a 5axis, I'll take the Trak, and farm the rest out.
Making 10 parts per hour with an automated pallet system 24/7 vs making 1 part per hour for 8 hours a day.
Random numbers of course, but its probably not far from reality. Or else there wouldn't be a market for expensive machines. And there clearly is.
What I do amounts to turd polishing most of the time.
I'm still learning how to polish turds.
College degrees are general purpose and have no real place in highly technical specialties
I'd like a video comparing Autodesk cam vrs mastercam
they are sponsored by mastercam, so unless that sponsorship falls out, I really doubt they will ever do anything like that.
I'm stuck on mastercam forever because all my work for the last 20 years is on mastercam. Sure there are converters but the risk of mistakes is too much. There are plenty of shops in the same situation. It's not the software but how you use it.
@@wannabecarguy I just wanted to see a side by side comparison, because I have to make a choice in the not to distant future for how I plan to go with my shop
@@seancollins9745 I personally can’t stand the user interface of MC. I run a mill-turn and a 5 axis mill with fusion. I produce reasonably complex parts for a optical supply shop. MC is a more powerful software, but I just can’t get past how clumsy it feels. The parametric modeling is very useful for me and my company to design and make our in-house tooling. MC would not allow for this flexibility. Well, not without throwing in a seat of SW.
2:52
If it ever is a situation about what degree you have, rather than what you can do, RUN.
Don't walk. Run.
All a degree is is an official document affirming that a person pleased a bureaucracy.
American manufacturing is stuck in the 40s. "This is the way we've always done it". Yes old Milwaukees and Czech made lathes are very nice machines and they have their place. But these shops are patching together old machines and barely keeping tolerances. Does the company maintain these machines or run them to failure and then kludge it back together every 4 months?
Yea, billion dollar company is really being held back by those machines aren’t they 🙄
CNC Is reason why China got all these jobs from the U.S. be better if was like the old days manual machines, means more union jobs. We were just fine before CNC made things fast but cheap. And caused huge decrease in jobs here , now only service jobs you starve on
ROI - Return On Investiment
Slow machining hurts everyone. Financially, morale, emotional, ... Why pay engineers to sit around while they could get shit done? Money for the machines is just the fuel to make more money. Slow burning slow earning.
WHERE IS MY GIFT ???
They done it years ago with out modern technology quit your whining
You are complaining about old machines and make a video with horrible horrible awful audio.