@@TheNightblindnessI do believe that Elspeth is a follower of Morr, and given that every spell she casts involves using her soul as a conduit for the wind of death, this means a her faith in Morr is always involved in her casts, for her faith is a part of her soul. Then we add all the armor the Ironsides are clad in, and the result is: Faith! Steel!! And Gunpowder!!!
I believe the saying goes like this: "What is a gun, but a magic wand, that combines Fire Magic and Metal magic into one?" Or, well, somewhere along these lines.
Who would win? Elf women who have devoted CENTURIES of their life in mastering the way of the bow? A bunch of dudes who have facial hair fashion competitions who have single shot rifles?
@@electrician6410 Yeah. The reason was that you could train a guy to decently shoot a rifle or crossbow in an hour. Whereas a decent or even good archer...
lets not forget that those facial hair dudes are one of the best if not the best trained rifle soldiers in the empire and i believe if a super elite division of archers duel an elite to very good rifle division in a flat field with nothing to disturb the flat missiles of the guns well i dont think years of experience will help you dodge bullets
Bow units have a huge advantage when the path is slightly blocked, the terrain is not completely flat or when friendly troops block the path. On an open field gunpowder units should win in my opinion.
Not just that, Sisters are probably better at killing infantry or monsters. Ironsides are pretty much built for that fight with their ability. Same with long rifles considering the range.
Yea, they aren't flagged as hybrid but the essentially are. I've had sisters take a full unobstructed charge from empire knights and end up winning that fight.
@@Fastwinstondoom yeah that was the exact thing that happened to me yesterday while fighting the Ogres. They were buzzsawing the entire ogre army except for a couple packs of their sabretusks that ran in and a couple units of Hochland Long Rifles evaporated.
For the longest time, prior to this update, it was difficult for me to see how the Empire even managed to survive. It's as if they're just being held together by copious amounts of plot armour. However, with this addition, it gave me the respite I need when I remember that the Empire is vastly more diverse than just archers and handgunners. In lore, they have repeating rifles, long rifles, and grenade launchers. And sure, their armour might be substantially worse than Elven or Dwarfen armour, but the Empire possesses numerous factories to produce good-enough-armour to field massive amounts of units like ironsides- making it even through sheer numbers. Now, it really feels appropriate that the Empire is amongst the foremost defenders of the Warhammer world against Chaos with these additions. They really show the Empire's mastery over trade and industry.
The High Elves desperately need a rework, but CA doesn't care about them. They just gave a better version of Intrigue to the Empire for no reason. The Asur are the Masters of trade
@@QualityGames-ql1jc No Problem. Tbh I would have thought that jezzails are the First comparison that comes to mind :) Akshina Ambushers maybe too, in the Basis of both having snipe but thats more of a far fetch...
"I'm told you may only manage two rounds a minute with your Long Rifles." "Aye, at a pinch, three. Each shot well aimed is an elf dead." "I'm sure you're right."
Still having an arc is so much OP in this kind of games, also SoA has more range than Iron Sides.... Realistically speaking, gunpodwer troops should obliterate archers in plain view like this map.
On the same thought process as you, guns should be better in most if not all cases like this. Guns don't have a big arc so they should be able to win the straight fights
In a way, I think their smaller unit size helped them a bit, since they could absorb more damage while keeping the same damage output, while the sisters had casualties almost immediately.
Over a wide open flat field, the guns are favored, but if there are any terrain irregularities, the firing arc of the Sisters will mean that they can shoot while guns would be obstructed.
@@jeanmuyuela8112 inronsides also cost 150 less but they are more effective as shown, depending on external factors does not justify such a difference in cost. In any case ironsides will probably end up with nerfs.
I ran some tests of my own... But Sisters of Avalorn aren't really meant to be dueling ranged units. They're not built for it and they suffer because of it. Ironsides still beat shielded Seaguard, though. The real trick is Ironsides need a clean line of sight. What is interesting to me is that Ironsides can also beat Celestial Dragon Crossbows, though it can go either way. One trick is to give the attack order to the Ironsides just as the longer ranged units start to shoot. It's more micro intensive, but it negates the range advantage enough to allow the Ironsides to blast away, and they'll do really well if they can just sit there because of Black Powder Discipline. They'll even beat Waywatchers IF the Waywatchers don't kite. But what I found does beat the Ironsides are the blunderbuss and shotgun Dwarfs (if the Ironsides don't kite). Of course, my tests were vs the AI, so... eh. I do like the idea of top tier guns like this, though. I just wish there was a variant with the repeaters and a shorter range, maybe fewer numbers, to be like better Iron Hail Gunners, or something.
@@QualityGames-ql1jc They are rather good, indeed. But your tests are better than mine, so it might be interesting to see what ranged units Ironsides can beat. Also, widest formation might do better against Long Rifles? I dunno. It's funny how much formation shape can actually change things up.
I've always felt that a better test of the range units would be to see how quickly they can kill frontline units both shielded and unshielded. Because I rarely try to kill the enemy's ranged units with my own I'm either using cavalry war dogs or magic. Now before this yes the sisters could pretty much kill every range student in the game because they both outraged most of them and out damaged most of them but still rarely is it actually a good test of the value of a unit to test it against another range unit. If you're going to do that you should at least have them have to fight through a front line to get to that range unit, because in that case the iron sides tend to lose that fight because of their line of sight issues requiring an open gap in the front lines and at least in skirmishes the enemy is going to drive something right through that hole
Can't wait to ally the Asur and have armies of gunpowder units backed by four regiments of sisters for indirect fire. By Sigmar and Isha, Archaon won't know what hit him!
one one side you can see students of the battlefield that dedicated most of there live to the honing of craft and weapon on the other side you could have seen elves a few seconds ago
Looking at their melee stats and entity count, I wonder if the Sisters of Avelorn would fare better by charging in and forcing the elite Empire gunner units into melee. They do have that “Decent Melee Combatant” on their unit card for a reason, after all.
That might actually be reasonable. Though especially the long rifles have quite a long range, so it would be I guess 3 free shots before they can close in :) Thanks for the comment.
Good positioning and a close look on the way the map is formed they can hit the enemy until the are nearly directly infront of the infantry. Having a hill to put them on even allows for fire support while the frontline is engaged.
The new rifles are definitely good at delivering direct damage, and the Ironsides are more resilient against dogs and bats...but they still require more looking after than Sisters, both in terms of terrain and overall formation and they don't have the raw dps and knockdown of the blunderbuss units, so you can't really use them as a frontline either... well, you can with the Amethyst Ironsides ;D
Jezzail type units are real, real good. Early in game 3 my favored cathat doomstack was a couple of jade warriors in the back for harmony, then a front line of ironhail gunners with a second line of crane gunners. *chef's kiss* having that type of unit on empire will be much fun.
They are running in their range straight, without anything to absorb the projectiles. Remember that sisters of Averlorn are an elite hybrid infantry that can both kill at range and in melee. They can take attack from monsters, cavalry and infantry in melee, something Hochland can not. They are fighting here in the field the Hochland Long Rifles AND in a place really made for them to win.
The comments of these videos often feel pretty quick to judgement about the winner being OP, and I don't think it is often justified. I will say, Ironsides winning against sisters, a unit who themselves were the subject of much powercreep discussions. The sisters even got off 2 full volleys before the ironsides were in range. I honestly expected the long rifles to win by more. Jezzail type units usually perform quite well in range duels. All in all those feel like a really well balanced unit.
High elves units underperforming is the routine since the beginning. First we deduct the cost of everything that does not influence the duel 150 points: Flame Ammunition is 50 points (difference between Bretonnian archers with and without flame ammunition), Martial Prowress is another 50 points (the difference in cost between HE and DE spearman, the HE spearman also has a worse base attack and defense but still cost 50 more), and if we add another 50 points for the magic ammunition (this is speculation, but poisoned arrows are also 50 points in the case of Bretonnian archers so is reasonable) we get 150 cost, 1100 - 150: 950 the same cost as the ironsiders, with everything that does not influence their shooting duel removed and the Sisters lose overwhelmingly against their same cost. If their firing capabilities were on par, both units should have destroyed each other, that did not happen. The math is clear, same cost and the Sisters of Averlorn do much worse, at the same level or slightly better than the thunderers that cost much less. That are the numbers. Remove the extra cost, including paying for a racial ability that does not benefit it in any way when shooting, which is what you want the unit to do (another reason why Martial Prowress does not work, CA charge all HE units for it even on units that do not get no real benefit from having that racial ability). I recommend visit Total War Warhammer stats and compare the calibration area, precision and calibration distance values of ironsiders and Sisters of Averlorn (and others units if you want), plus the ironsiders unique ability that improves their performance even more, so can see why they are very superior than Sisters of Averlorn even with the same cost calculate after removing the previously mentioned elements. I will leave the arc shot at 0 because while it can help shooting in some situations it also makes it very difficult for the Averlorn sisters to hit more than one model with a single shot, which the straight shot does much more easily. A benefit and a disadvantage at the same time.
High Elves need to be one of the next reworks. They’re not bottom-tier weak, but they’re definitely out of balance lore-wise now. Balthasar Gelt’s new mechanics make Teclis’ campaign feel like a wet noodle, and he literally founded the human colleges of magic.
@@whocares2634 I don’t think they need any new lords, I just think they haven’t tweaked the HE mechanics since they were first introduced, which was all the way back at the beginning of WH2, practically WH1 days.
Also if you compare hitpoints and divide by units, the sisters have around 800hp per unit, while the riflemen have more than 1000hp, and since every unit lost is also a loss in overall firepower (also added that they move around after losing someone instead of just keep firing) meaning they cascade down way faster.
sisters have the projectile arc to shoot over stuff and also are very "snappy" meaning they fire around a second after giving the fire command where rifles can take 5 seconds sometimes. with micro the sisters won't get in the ironsides range because of this because they can almost fire while moving. the long rifles did better than i expected.
To be fair you gave the Imperial gunners their ideal scenario here putting them on flat terrain with no infantry to block the line of sight. Even then if you don't just let the Sisters sit there, but instead kite with them so Nuln Ironsides can't use black powder discipline they'd win there.
Wow who could have known that the guys with exceeeingly more Range would win on completly open ground. The fwct that These can be recruited in Small settlements makes it crazy while only Alarielle can do it for SoA... Hofh elf need a rework.
They arent exactly the same type of unit. Much of the Sisters' high point cost comes from the fact they are decent fighters. They're melee, defense, and weapon strength are higher than most state troopers of the Empire. They should fire a few volleys and then charge in and cut them to pieces.
One negative that kept happening is that the sisters kept trying to re-shape their formation, dramatically lowering fire rate. either way, the firepower or the ironsides is quite scary
The sisters would've been better off firing volleys until the Rifleman came into range, then charging into melee. That or the sisters can kite because they are faster. Last they have arched shots, they're not as limited by terrain.
Valid points. We will have a vid in near future where both sides have infantry support as well. Let's see if it affects things :) Thanks for the comment.
If you hadn't already considered it, is there a chance to see Hochland Long Rifles vs Skaven Warplock Jezzails? They look pretty similar statwise, but I'm wondering if the little bit of extra range and potentially armor on the jezzails can give them the edge.
Shields are good to have in these ranged duels Edit: woops, I thought ironsides had shields for some reason. They don't. Damn, that blackpowder discipling kicks in HARD if the SoA don't take advantage of their range and kite every couple volleys
For the Ironsides fight - 20 armor and the siginificantly reduced damage of Sisters is what decided this I think. I thought it would be closer because the iron-sides are lower model #'s but I guess not.
This is just normal procedure with CA to be fair. They release a new DLC with new units and intentionally make them a bit overpowered, to get people interested. Then after the sales have started dropping, they nerf them to a more balanced level.
Good to know but most of the time it wont be a simple range duel, the sisters are also more mobile and have magical attacks so while they lose 1v1s I think they deserve their price.
Nothing wrong with dedicated ranged units winning against versatile units like Sisters, so long as it is reflected in the price. Sisters will easily survive being flanked by hounds or light cavalry while all of those gunners will get torn apart in seconds, and in most battles the biggest threat for your ranged units are going to be those quick hounds or light cavalry, its rare when you are going to have a shoot out in my experience. With all of that said, Sisters definitely have an issue with constantly reforming ranks and not firing, and the amount by which some of the gunners are winning just doesn't feel right considering the costs.
I still prefer archer and crossbow to any gunners in this game due to the fact they can almost always fire at enemies and gun units always struggle to find line of sight . In my experience, there is no such flat map and even map looks flat have those bumps and hills all over the place not to mention friendly troops standing before the gun units. I usually have only one or two gunners in my 20 stack army and their job is to shot big size units who clash into my front line.
Hello, cool videos! Will you continue testing legendary lords and heroes on this channel? If so, I think it would be a good idea to test Kholek against Durthu, or Greasus against Tavrox. How do you feel about this, any good ideas? :).
So next patch to nerf them or raise the price? nah, in fact, sisters are much more versatile, better against fire or magic weakness, can fire after a shield line, and much better at close combat. Compare them with other archer unit like the shielded ones.
Thanks for the comment. Valid points :) Other comparison vids already done, e.g. vs. Warplock Jezzails. Link below: ua-cam.com/video/3KFQANRoGRg/v-deo.html
Well, Ironsides are gun units that need better line of sight and have shorter range. Hochland long rifles have long range, but still need better line of sight. Im not sure what the cost difference is, but I still see sisters of avelorn having several advantages and being useful in other ways. I dont think you want more than 2-3 Hochland rifles in your army, while you can basically have a whole army of sisters and be fine in almost all situations. Hochland rifles are still worse than warplock jezzails. I think empire needed their new units, they kinda sucked before. High elves are more than fine, and sisters are still good. Balanced units, as far as I can see.
Well I see the strengh of the sisters in attacking big hordes: lot of enemies standing together in a crowd. You can see most of their arrows miss their targets (not like the lore but whatever).
One on one the Rifles are better. Now the sisters might still be the best support ranged in the game. They can shoot over there line easier. I would not mind seeing a video of a full battle with the ranged unites being sisters on one side and Rifes on the other.
Meh, I would still fully expect the Sisters, or even just standard High Elf archers, to be better in a proper battle situation with other units on the field. Guns are terrible in TWW3 unless they have a perfect line of sight, archers don't need that
Someone at CA : "_Did we really learnt the lesson, will we sincerely try do do better and not milk our clients like cashcows?" _Summon the Empire DLC ! Ironsides taking 3 volleys before counting losses, check. Long rifles with 10 seconds fire rate, check. They'll be happy, they'll buy it."
In this specific match up the sisters lose, because it plays into the advantage of what the gunpowder units are good at and doesn't take into account all the advantages the sisters of averlorn bring, like the fact they can shoot over stuff and are actually good in melee. I would still take the sisters of Avelorn any day of the week, they're a better unit.
At least they can fire over their own units. I’m a TW noob but just got war hammer 3 and thought I’d play the new empire faction and go heavy on the gunpowder. 90% of the time they’re completely obstructed. I even spend time setting up a decent formation with view points but a single hill or rock in their way and they’re suddenly useless. You’re also against vampires with them and they get constantly battered by bats. I really want to like them, but they just seem not worth the hassle. Played a few rounds as elven factions and the archers are 100x easier to use.
The first line of sisters tank basically all the first shots Must also say for what these units are to represent they are not very balanced. However it is more a point of the game engine I think The rifles have a flat shooting arch so basically a line, so the first line of sisters in formation fall first and than the second line. meaning as units die the damage of the overall formation drops off while the damage is spread out over the formation of rifleman so fewer of them die and they continue to do damage. Second somehow sisters miss a good bit when they should not overall the stat block would suggest that those two units deal about the same amount of damage to normal infantry so it would be kinda interesting too see how much damage they do against a formation or two of some unbreakable high HP unit or two.
The age of magic is over.
The time of technology begins
Balthazar gelt be like: bring me low cost high efficiencies spells for all magic users!
Nah, Gelt just took all the magic for his faction.
The age of MAN is here! FOR SIGMAR!
@@suoun6938 yeah but in his faction all magic users became monstrious in battles (it fun to have a beast lore mage with 100 Armor in gelt army xd)
Magic is no match for what makes the Empire great! Faith, Steel and GUNPOWDER!
Well put :) Thanks for the comment.
Gunpower with purple sun > Faith, Steel and GUNPOWDER!
More like GUNPOWDER, GUNPOWER and faith with magic support.
@@TheNightblindnessI do believe that Elspeth is a follower of Morr, and given that every spell she casts involves using her soul as a conduit for the wind of death, this means a her faith in Morr is always involved in her casts, for her faith is a part of her soul. Then we add all the armor the Ironsides are clad in, and the result is:
Faith! Steel!! And Gunpowder!!!
Druchii shades would smoke them
“Your magic is no match for my gun, you idiot!”
>Nuln Ironsides Sargent Stanford
Indeed :) Thanks for the comment.
I believe the saying goes like this: "What is a gun, but a magic wand, that combines Fire Magic and Metal magic into one?" Or, well, somewhere along these lines.
That captures it rather well :) Thanks for the comment.
♫Big iron on his hip♫
:D Thanks for the comment.
Who would win?
Elf women who have devoted CENTURIES of their life in mastering the way of the bow?
A bunch of dudes who have facial hair fashion competitions who have single shot rifles?
Well, there is a reason that bows were mostly replaced with rifles about 200 years ago and before that with crossbows.
@@electrician6410 Yeah. The reason was that you could train a guy to decently shoot a rifle or crossbow in an hour.
Whereas a decent or even good archer...
lets not forget that those facial hair dudes are one of the best if not the best trained rifle soldiers in the empire and i believe if a super elite division of archers duel an elite to very good rifle division in a flat field with nothing to disturb the flat missiles of the guns well i dont think years of experience will help you dodge bullets
Whomever came later in DLC :D
You're fogetting a really important thing... THEY ARE ELF AND WOMEN (what do you really expected)
Bow units have a huge advantage when the path is slightly blocked, the terrain is not completely flat or when friendly troops block the path.
On an open field gunpowder units should win in my opinion.
Not just that, Sisters are probably better at killing infantry or monsters.
Ironsides are pretty much built for that fight with their ability. Same with long rifles considering the range.
Also 38 melee def > 24 melee def
@@IVIRnathanreilly buffed sisters can tank demigryph charges.
They are line infantry
Yea, they aren't flagged as hybrid but the essentially are. I've had sisters take a full unobstructed charge from empire knights and end up winning that fight.
Exactly this. Rest of the comments are on too. Ironsides are a VERY specialized unit, Sisters are the most well-rounded ranged infantry in the game.
A new wind of magic has entered the known world, *Firearm magic*
*Powder* Magic.
"I cast lore of METAL ( *fires guns* ) " - Baltasar Gelt
Florida man magic
Well put :) Thanks for the comment.
There is a book series call the Powder Mage trilogy its really good and some of the magic is literally gunpowder based.
Man those Hochland longrifles are amazing. So happy that they’ve been added.
Yea, that was rather impressive performance from them :) Thanks for the comment.
They are but they are also chew toys for bats and dogs, even more so than most.
A certain mod alrdy add those Hochland rifles years ago in Warhammer 2😂,
@@Fastwinstondoom yeah that was the exact thing that happened to me yesterday while fighting the Ogres. They were buzzsawing the entire ogre army except for a couple packs of their sabretusks that ran in and a couple units of Hochland Long Rifles evaporated.
For the longest time, prior to this update, it was difficult for me to see how the Empire even managed to survive. It's as if they're just being held together by copious amounts of plot armour.
However, with this addition, it gave me the respite I need when I remember that the Empire is vastly more diverse than just archers and handgunners. In lore, they have repeating rifles, long rifles, and grenade launchers. And sure, their armour might be substantially worse than Elven or Dwarfen armour, but the Empire possesses numerous factories to produce good-enough-armour to field massive amounts of units like ironsides- making it even through sheer numbers.
Now, it really feels appropriate that the Empire is amongst the foremost defenders of the Warhammer world against Chaos with these additions. They really show the Empire's mastery over trade and industry.
Thanks for the comment. Yea, agreed. Imo the Empire suffered that it was a starting faction of WH1 and was not really upgraded before this :)
The High Elves desperately need a rework, but CA doesn't care about them. They just gave a better version of Intrigue to the Empire for no reason.
The Asur are the Masters of trade
sisters have a good firing arc, magic and fire attacks, and are much better in melee though - so different strengths
True. :) Thanks for the comment.
In other words, a Bad comparison. Jezzails maybe?
@@martinnolhaf3151 On To-DO list :) Thanks for the comment.
@@QualityGames-ql1jc No Problem. Tbh I would have thought that jezzails are the First comparison that comes to mind :)
Akshina Ambushers maybe too, in the Basis of both having snipe but thats more of a far fetch...
"I'm told you may only manage two rounds a minute with your Long Rifles."
"Aye, at a pinch, three. Each shot well aimed is an elf dead."
"I'm sure you're right."
Well put. Is that a quote from somewhere? :) Thanks for the comment.
@@QualityGames-ql1jc Yup, from Sharpe.
@@0100001101001110 Thanks for the response :)
Still having an arc is so much OP in this kind of games, also SoA has more range than Iron Sides.... Realistically speaking, gunpodwer troops should obliterate archers in plain view like this map.
On the same thought process as you, guns should be better in most if not all cases like this. Guns don't have a big arc so they should be able to win the straight fights
Valid points :) Thanks for the comment.
In a way, I think their smaller unit size helped them a bit, since they could absorb more damage while keeping the same damage output, while the sisters had casualties almost immediately.
True :) Thanks for the comment.
Over a wide open flat field, the guns are favored, but if there are any terrain irregularities, the firing arc of the Sisters will mean that they can shoot while guns would be obstructed.
As a High Elf main, this, this is painful heresy to witness.
Quiet Elgi! When we want you to make doilies we will ask!
Jk I was just as suprised
High elves units underperforming is the routine from the beginning.
Ironside shots doesn't arc and has shorter range. In actual battle mixed with other units, magic arrow can do more
@@jeanmuyuela8112 inronsides also cost 150 less but they are more effective as shown, depending on external factors does not justify such a difference in cost. In any case ironsides will probably end up with nerfs.
I also main HE but then again I also play Empire. Old factions really need update to stand toe to toe with the newer ones.
Now we know how longbow men felt
True :) Thanks for the comment.
I did not expect them to mop the floor so strong with the SoA like DAMN
Yea, rather strong performance from them :) Thanks for the comment.
I ran some tests of my own...
But Sisters of Avalorn aren't really meant to be dueling ranged units. They're not built for it and they suffer because of it. Ironsides still beat shielded Seaguard, though. The real trick is Ironsides need a clean line of sight.
What is interesting to me is that Ironsides can also beat Celestial Dragon Crossbows, though it can go either way. One trick is to give the attack order to the Ironsides just as the longer ranged units start to shoot. It's more micro intensive, but it negates the range advantage enough to allow the Ironsides to blast away, and they'll do really well if they can just sit there because of Black Powder Discipline. They'll even beat Waywatchers IF the Waywatchers don't kite. But what I found does beat the Ironsides are the blunderbuss and shotgun Dwarfs (if the Ironsides don't kite). Of course, my tests were vs the AI, so... eh.
I do like the idea of top tier guns like this, though. I just wish there was a variant with the repeaters and a shorter range, maybe fewer numbers, to be like better Iron Hail Gunners, or something.
Thank You for sharing the test results. It seems these additions are rather good :)
@@QualityGames-ql1jc They are rather good, indeed. But your tests are better than mine, so it might be interesting to see what ranged units Ironsides can beat.
Also, widest formation might do better against Long Rifles? I dunno. It's funny how much formation shape can actually change things up.
Waywatchers always kite, according to Warhammer lore
@@superfoxwu Yes, and they should in a battle too
I've always felt that a better test of the range units would be to see how quickly they can kill frontline units both shielded and unshielded. Because I rarely try to kill the enemy's ranged units with my own I'm either using cavalry war dogs or magic. Now before this yes the sisters could pretty much kill every range student in the game because they both outraged most of them and out damaged most of them but still rarely is it actually a good test of the value of a unit to test it against another range unit. If you're going to do that you should at least have them have to fight through a front line to get to that range unit, because in that case the iron sides tend to lose that fight because of their line of sight issues requiring an open gap in the front lines and at least in skirmishes the enemy is going to drive something right through that hole
Can't wait to ally the Asur and have armies of gunpowder units backed by four regiments of sisters for indirect fire.
By Sigmar and Isha, Archaon won't know what hit him!
Yea, seems to be the case :) Thanks for the comment.
Or vice versa, an army led by Imrik full of dragons, sisters, and irondrakes/hellstorm batteries. Everything must burn!
Empire with the new tech that can rival the skaven one in some ways is the definition of
The future is now old man
one one side you can see students of the battlefield that dedicated most of there live to the honing of craft and weapon
on the other side you could have seen elves a few seconds ago
Doom music starts playing then the Gunpowder Discipline kicks in
:D Thanks for the comment.
Looking at their melee stats and entity count, I wonder if the Sisters of Avelorn would fare better by charging in and forcing the elite Empire gunner units into melee. They do have that “Decent Melee Combatant” on their unit card for a reason, after all.
That might actually be reasonable. Though especially the long rifles have quite a long range, so it would be I guess 3 free shots before they can close in :) Thanks for the comment.
the real issue here is that the sisters can shoot over front line troops. gunners can't
Stupid man-thing just shoot through-through!
Good positioning and a close look on the way the map is formed they can hit the enemy until the are nearly directly infront of the infantry. Having a hill to put them on even allows for fire support while the frontline is engaged.
Holy... the range of the Long Rifles. That's insane
Yea, impressive :) Thanks for the comment.
hold my beer >:)
man that first volley from the hochland long rifles was brutal
Fully agreed on that :) Thanks for the comment.
"You may have magic... BUT I HAVE A GUN!!!"
Minnie Mouse - 2522 I.C.
In this land of blood and wishes, steel is the only magic I need.
jeez that one unit almost fought to the last elf
The new rifles are definitely good at delivering direct damage, and the Ironsides are more resilient against dogs and bats...but they still require more looking after than Sisters, both in terms of terrain and overall formation and they don't have the raw dps and knockdown of the blunderbuss units, so you can't really use them as a frontline either... well, you can with the Amethyst Ironsides ;D
Full upgraded Amethyst IS are incredible scary. Iron resolve is an insane buff.
The true lore of metal
Whoa those long rifles!
Jezzail type units are real, real good. Early in game 3 my favored cathat doomstack was a couple of jade warriors in the back for harmony, then a front line of ironhail gunners with a second line of crane gunners. *chef's kiss* having that type of unit on empire will be much fun.
Yea, that was rather impressive :) Thanks for the comment.
"A weapon that kills without honor, without skill, but even so, it gives power and victory and Victory wipes away dishonor." - Elspeth Von Draken
:D Thanks for the comment
They are running in their range straight, without anything to absorb the projectiles.
Remember that sisters of Averlorn are an elite hybrid infantry that can both kill at range and in melee. They can take attack from monsters, cavalry and infantry in melee, something Hochland can not. They are fighting here in the field the Hochland Long Rifles AND in a place really made for them to win.
Valid points :) Thanks for the comment.
The comments of these videos often feel pretty quick to judgement about the winner being OP, and I don't think it is often justified. I will say, Ironsides winning against sisters, a unit who themselves were the subject of much powercreep discussions. The sisters even got off 2 full volleys before the ironsides were in range.
I honestly expected the long rifles to win by more. Jezzail type units usually perform quite well in range duels. All in all those feel like a really well balanced unit.
High elves units underperforming is the routine since the beginning.
First we deduct the cost of everything that does not influence the duel 150 points: Flame Ammunition is 50 points (difference between Bretonnian archers with and without flame ammunition), Martial Prowress is another 50 points (the difference in cost between HE and DE spearman, the HE spearman also has a worse base attack and defense but still cost 50 more), and if we add another 50 points for the magic ammunition (this is speculation, but poisoned arrows are also 50 points in the case of Bretonnian archers so is reasonable) we get 150 cost, 1100 - 150: 950 the same cost as the ironsiders, with everything that does not influence their shooting duel removed and the Sisters lose overwhelmingly against their same cost. If their firing capabilities were on par, both units should have destroyed each other, that did not happen.
The math is clear, same cost and the Sisters of Averlorn do much worse, at the same level or slightly better than the thunderers that cost much less. That are the numbers. Remove the extra cost, including paying for a racial ability that does not benefit it in any way when shooting, which is what you want the unit to do (another reason why Martial Prowress does not work, CA charge all HE units for it even on units that do not get no real benefit from having that racial ability).
I recommend visit Total War Warhammer stats and compare the calibration area, precision and calibration distance values of ironsiders and Sisters of Averlorn (and others units if you want), plus the ironsiders unique ability that improves their performance even more, so can see why they are very superior than Sisters of Averlorn even with the same cost calculate after removing the previously mentioned elements.
I will leave the arc shot at 0 because while it can help shooting in some situations it also makes it very difficult for the Averlorn sisters to hit more than one model with a single shot, which the straight shot does much more easily. A benefit and a disadvantage at the same time.
Of course the sisters can survive in close combat with goblins. The riflemen...
A valid point :) Thanks for the comment.
High Elves need to be one of the next reworks. They’re not bottom-tier weak, but they’re definitely out of balance lore-wise now. Balthasar Gelt’s new mechanics make Teclis’ campaign feel like a wet noodle, and he literally founded the human colleges of magic.
another HE legendary lord? Give me a break.
@@whocares2634 I don’t think they need any new lords, I just think they haven’t tweaked the HE mechanics since they were first introduced, which was all the way back at the beginning of WH2, practically WH1 days.
Buf the martial, and surp nerf relaod time for all elf
The Ironsides have a good advantage with armour, hence why they were able to survive long enough to win
Also if you compare hitpoints and divide by units, the sisters have around 800hp per unit, while the riflemen have more than 1000hp, and since every unit lost is also a loss in overall firepower (also added that they move around after losing someone instead of just keep firing) meaning they cascade down way faster.
We shall bless this field with the gift of slain Elgi
I would like to see crane gunners/jezzails vs the longrifles
Thanks for the suggestion. I will add those to To-Do list :)
The fact that we got so many new gunpowder units but no reload animations makes me seethe though
Perhaps that is part of the Black Powder Magic :) Thanks for the comment
Honestly did not expect that the ironsides would win this matchup
Yea, that was quite impressive :) Thanks for the comment.
sisters have the projectile arc to shoot over stuff and also are very "snappy" meaning they fire around a second after giving the fire command where rifles can take 5 seconds sometimes. with micro the sisters won't get in the ironsides range because of this because they can almost fire while moving. the long rifles did better than i expected.
Valid points :) Thanks for the comment.
The age of magic is over. The time of gun powder has come!
Indeed :) Thanks for the comment.
will need to put in consideration the arrows can arc and be shot behind the lines, but the new handgunners are fun to use
That is a valid point. A new test with infantry support coming :) Thanks for the comment.
Looks like the elves are back in the menu boys 😂
:D indeed. Thanks for the comment.
Genuinely surprised by the results.
Three volleys before they even got in range of the long rifles and 75% dead by the time they were. Good to finally our Empire sniper unit.
The ironsides seem to interrupt the sisters' loading animation, reducing their effectiveness
A valid point :) Thanks for the comment.
To be fair you gave the Imperial gunners their ideal scenario here putting them on flat terrain with no infantry to block the line of sight. Even then if you don't just let the Sisters sit there, but instead kite with them so Nuln Ironsides can't use black powder discipline they'd win there.
Thanks for the comment. Yea, that might very well be the case :)
Wow who could have known that the guys with exceeeingly more Range would win on completly open ground.
The fwct that These can be recruited in Small settlements makes it crazy while only Alarielle can do it for SoA... Hofh elf need a rework.
They arent exactly the same type of unit. Much of the Sisters' high point cost comes from the fact they are decent fighters. They're melee, defense, and weapon strength are higher than most state troopers of the Empire. They should fire a few volleys and then charge in and cut them to pieces.
One negative that kept happening is that the sisters kept trying to re-shape their formation, dramatically lowering fire rate. either way, the firepower or the ironsides is quite scary
The sisters would've been better off firing volleys until the Rifleman came into range, then charging into melee. That or the sisters can kite because they are faster. Last they have arched shots, they're not as limited by terrain.
Valid points. We will have a vid in near future where both sides have infantry support as well. Let's see if it affects things :) Thanks for the comment.
Irondrake Trollhammer torpedoes got quite the overhaul.
Remember the tears that where shed over how OP sisters were..
If you hadn't already considered it, is there a chance to see Hochland Long Rifles vs Skaven Warplock Jezzails? They look pretty similar statwise, but I'm wondering if the little bit of extra range and potentially armor on the jezzails can give them the edge.
Jezzails also have shields
Thanks for the comment. I will add that to To-Do list :)
Looks like elf meat is back on the menu gents!
Shields are good to have in these ranged duels
Edit: woops, I thought ironsides had shields for some reason. They don't. Damn, that blackpowder discipling kicks in HARD if the SoA don't take advantage of their range and kite every couple volleys
For the Ironsides fight - 20 armor and the siginificantly reduced damage of Sisters is what decided this I think. I thought it would be closer because the iron-sides are lower model #'s but I guess not.
This is just normal procedure with CA to be fair. They release a new DLC with new units and intentionally make them a bit overpowered, to get people interested.
Then after the sales have started dropping, they nerf them to a more balanced level.
Yea, that seems likely :) Thanks for the comment.
Hochland Gun-jutsu goes hard
Well put :D Thanks for the comment.
Just wow, and ironsides have 20 units less than Sisters of Avelorn too...
Good to know but most of the time it wont be a simple range duel, the sisters are also more mobile and have magical attacks so while they lose 1v1s I think they deserve their price.
True, these tests are always a simplification :) Thanks for the comment.
How bows have longer range than a firearm?
Yeah I tried mp, archer units are way versatile compare to guns. Gun units literally relies on a flat field to be really effective
Nothing wrong with dedicated ranged units winning against versatile units like Sisters, so long as it is reflected in the price. Sisters will easily survive being flanked by hounds or light cavalry while all of those gunners will get torn apart in seconds, and in most battles the biggest threat for your ranged units are going to be those quick hounds or light cavalry, its rare when you are going to have a shoot out in my experience. With all of that said, Sisters definitely have an issue with constantly reforming ranks and not firing, and the amount by which some of the gunners are winning just doesn't feel right considering the costs.
Well put :) Thanks for the comment.
Hmm should ranged infantry have range as long as artillery though?
Age of Gun Power magic is come
Indeed :) Thanks for the comment.
the ironside accuracy really shine here
well the advantage of the elves is that they can volley which is easier to maintain and defend in battle
Agreed on that :) Thanks for the comment.
I still prefer archer and crossbow to any gunners in this game due to the fact they can almost always fire at enemies and gun units always struggle to find line of sight . In my experience, there is no such flat map and even map looks flat have those bumps and hills all over the place not to mention friendly troops standing before the gun units. I usually have only one or two gunners in my 20 stack army and their job is to shot big size units who clash into my front line.
What if after one volley, the Sister just drop range and run at the gunmen?
They will win in melee fight
They would win in melee, but the Longrifles wiuld just obliterate them on the way
The power to levitate is insignificant next rot the power of shot posting online
Elspeth with long rifles and helstorm rocket batteries is my favorite doomstack
Sounds rather explosive :D Thanks for the comment.
Oooof the sisters got violated!!!
I kinda wanna see this with campaign and tech buffs
Hello, cool videos! Will you continue testing legendary lords and heroes on this channel? If so, I think it would be a good idea to test Kholek against Durthu, or Greasus against Tavrox. How do you feel about this, any good ideas? :).
Thanks for the suggestions. I will add them to To-Do list :)
Thank you very much in advance!
If I had the choice, I would always choose the sisters. Simply because I can place them directly behind my melee fighters.
So next patch to nerf them or raise the price? nah, in fact, sisters are much more versatile, better against fire or magic weakness, can fire after a shield line, and much better at close combat. Compare them with other archer unit like the shielded ones.
Thanks for the comment. Valid points :) Other comparison vids already done, e.g. vs. Warplock Jezzails. Link below:
ua-cam.com/video/3KFQANRoGRg/v-deo.html
Well, Ironsides are gun units that need better line of sight and have shorter range. Hochland long rifles have long range, but still need better line of sight. Im not sure what the cost difference is, but I still see sisters of avelorn having several advantages and being useful in other ways. I dont think you want more than 2-3 Hochland rifles in your army, while you can basically have a whole army of sisters and be fine in almost all situations. Hochland rifles are still worse than warplock jezzails. I think empire needed their new units, they kinda sucked before. High elves are more than fine, and sisters are still good. Balanced units, as far as I can see.
SOA are more elite but the empire 2 are more basically useful. Why they were useful against vampire counts.
Well I see the strengh of the sisters in attacking big hordes: lot of enemies standing together in a crowd. You can see most of their arrows miss their targets (not like the lore but whatever).
Elves will train for 600 years with a bow just to get obliterated by an artillery shell.
toggle melee attack, right click, no more empire dudes
Would they be fast enough? :) Thanks for the comment.
One on one the Rifles are better. Now the sisters might still be the best support ranged in the game. They can shoot over there line easier. I would not mind seeing a video of a full battle with the ranged unites being sisters on one side and Rifes on the other.
Thanks for the suggestion. A battle a bit like that will be released on Monday :) I.e. 3 ranged units with 3 infantry units.
Meh, I would still fully expect the Sisters, or even just standard High Elf archers, to be better in a proper battle situation with other units on the field. Guns are terrible in TWW3 unless they have a perfect line of sight, archers don't need that
True, these tests are always a simplification :) Thanks for the comment.
Someone at CA : "_Did we really learnt the lesson, will we sincerely try do do better and not milk our clients like cashcows?"
_Summon the Empire DLC !
Ironsides taking 3 volleys before counting losses, check.
Long rifles with 10 seconds fire rate, check.
They'll be happy, they'll buy it."
In this specific match up the sisters lose, because it plays into the advantage of what the gunpowder units are good at and doesn't take into account all the advantages the sisters of averlorn bring, like the fact they can shoot over stuff and are actually good in melee. I would still take the sisters of Avelorn any day of the week, they're a better unit.
Thanks for the comment. Tomorrow, we are having a test where the Sisters face Amethys Ironsides in melee. Let's see what will happen :)
The sisters' problem is that they miss with half their arrows.
Agreed on that :) Thanks for the comment.
Do wood elf archers vs the new gunpowder units. I imagine waystalkers whould shred those long rifles.
Let's find out. Thanks for the suggestion :)
Nice bro, but its kinda predictable with that Nuln ironslide buff while firing...
Maybe pit them against thunderer next😂
Yea, they definitely need some new challenges :) Thanks for the comment.
To quote my 40k brothers: Friendship is magic but magic is heresy.
Sisters being pushed back by bullets and filling ranks decreased thier firing rate
…Time to colonize the elves.
At least they can fire over their own units. I’m a TW noob but just got war hammer 3 and thought I’d play the new empire faction and go heavy on the gunpowder. 90% of the time they’re completely obstructed. I even spend time setting up a decent formation with view points but a single hill or rock in their way and they’re suddenly useless.
You’re also against vampires with them and they get constantly battered by bats. I really want to like them, but they just seem not worth the hassle.
Played a few rounds as elven factions and the archers are 100x easier to use.
Thanks for the comment. Yea, the positioning and protection are crucial for these buys. But when they hit, they tend to hit like a truck :)
My green tide can beat this. The goblin tide will stretch the plains and mountains, wahhhhgggggg
The first line of sisters tank basically all the first shots
Must also say for what these units are to represent they are not very balanced. However it is more a point of the game engine I think The rifles have a flat shooting arch so basically a line, so the first line of sisters in formation fall first and than the second line. meaning as units die the damage of the overall formation drops off while the damage is spread out over the formation of rifleman so fewer of them die and they continue to do damage.
Second somehow sisters miss a good bit when they should not overall the stat block would suggest that those two units deal about the same amount of damage to normal infantry so it would be kinda interesting too see how much damage they do against a formation or two of some unbreakable high HP unit or two.
Thanks for the comment. I have already on To-Do list to test the units with some infantry support :)