I like this format of these videos where you ask a question. It clearly tells me what i am going to see; I can choose to watch for the answer or not; and the videos are short and to the point.
@Sparky Channel. Thanks Bill for remaking this video and clarifying what the NEC code says. So if we find unsupported cables in walls we shouldn't freak out necessarily unless we're sure when the work was done. I'm sure learning alot of good and useful things from you. I really appreciate that you take the feedback from your viewers and make changes for clarity. Hope you and your family stay safe and well. Merry Christmas.
We're all learning from each other. One thing I fully recognize is that I have an extraordinary group of viewers at this channel so I do listen to the comments and sometimes the viewer/s are right and I'm wrong. This isn't the 1st time I've taken a video down and corrected it and I'm sure that it won't be the last time. Merry Christmas to you as well!
Good job Sparky. A lot of unsupported cable in walls for 3 way swithes, switches for ceiling fan / lights, and new microwaves. Also for new switches for seperate switches for bath fan, light heater combos. Enjoy your code references for common everyday wiring modifications. Thanks Sparky.
I would argue that any ceiling that had an accessible attic above it, should also be considered an accessible ceiling. As long as you could get to the wiring mentioned in (2).
If the attic is used for storage of some sort I agree with that point but most unfinished attic spaces I’ve been in are just gross and filled with insulation and the only times it gets visited is either rodents or the once every 10-50 years (if that) that a worker needs to access the space for a very specific purpose in which case I think it’s fine.
I can’t imagine when anyone would nail drywall where there is no wood. This type of install also tends to be in non-insulated interior walls, no? There’s also considerable slack in the cable. Therefore, even if someone nails into the drywall alone, the nail should merely bump the cable. A more likely risk would be if someone eventually sawed into the cavity.
A clarification question - If you add another outlet at the same height as existing outlets (typically near the floor), and run the cable up through the top plate and into the attic, is this is also allowed, because walls are typically 8 feet high and at the exact middle of the wall (measured 4 feet up from the floor or 4 feet down from the ceiling), the cable is both 1) supported by the electrical outlet below and is less than 4 1/2 feet as measured at the middle and 2) supported by the staple where the cable enters the top plate and is also less than 4 1/2 feet as measured at the middle
My instructor in electrical school used to always say if you wanted to see an electrical nightmare re wire a 1970’s mobile home. Never knew what he meant until me and my wife bought our starter home ( ‘74 mobile home). I don’t believe these manufacturers knew what a wire staple was back then cause I have not found one till this day. Wire came out of the panel up into the trusses and was lay out until it was terminated in a brown fiberglass box the was screwed to the wood paneling. The wires entered the box though a 1/2 hole that was drilled into the top. Luckily, we gutted every room and drywall so I was able to wire each room properly.
Call me crazy but I’m remodeling my house and even though I’m not taking down all the drywall in certain part of the house,but when I need to run a new home run or outlet etc. I’ll just cut in to the dry wall around for the outlet to support the new cable and even make a small section on of the wall before the ceiling to support the cable. It’s just a habit.
I actually was thinking about this law a few months ago when I added a fixed light in the laundry room. I fished the wire through an outside wall to the switch than across the rafter joist to the light. Where I could I stapled it every 4 feet to the light
Bill, if I'm extending from an existing plastic 1-gang new work box by adding an old work 1-gang box on the opposite side of the same wall cavity, do I still need to worry about 314.17(B)(2) clamping requirements, even though 334.30(B)(1) allows me to fish cable unsupported? 314.17(B)(2) provides an exception if the NM is secured within 8" of the box without a clamp, so I suppose the added old work box's built-in clamp could meet that exception IF located within 8" of the existing box's knock out -- is that right? What happens if the boxes need to be more than 12" apart though? Does that mean I either need to saw out the existing new work box and replace it with something that has clamps (or cut drywall holes) to meet clamping requirements at the box, even though 334.30(B)(1) lets me fish cables unsupported?
@@SparkyChannel alot of our viewers are still learning and guys and gals were just trying to help you be your best ..wanna be a smart ass become a plumber
Who cares? What a stupid question. With close to 42,000 views and 1,100 thumbs-up, it seems like a lot of people care. A lot of people care to learn code, unlike you who simply doesn't care. Glad I don't work with you.
334.30(B)(1) seems to be subject to interpretation and not specific. Regarding the finished wall, opening the wall for a staple at 8 inches is impracticable according to whom? The owner that doesn't want to pay to refinish the extra hole or the building inspector that isn't going to pay for the wall repair?
You would think code would require the use of a cable to box securing device that keeps the cable from being pulled back out of the box when it can't be stapled near the box (also eliminating the possibility of stress being placed on the connections within the box should the cable be put under some external pull).
Very crisp and to the point -- really helpful! One question -- if there is an attic over a room, is the ceiling considered accessible and therefore the cable needs to be supported beyond 4 1/2 feet? Or is it OK to fish/lay cable without staples?
Check out my video: Is this Cable Stapling Legal? 2020 NEC 334.30: ua-cam.com/video/pPjGcvgy72I/v-deo.html It shows the max the NEC allows but the least they would allow would be pulled tight. I feel that it is more professional to do the proper cable securing but give some slack to help future electricians in case the wires get cut short or something of the sort.
@@Sparkchaser1 14, 12, & 10 sheathed cable(romex) are all derated. The reason he uses 12 is and will always be the best choice! Now in many jurisdictions (city county etc)will not allow 14 on any new, or remodel work so it 12 or larger
It really goes like this: "I don't care what the code says. We are not going to tear open that finished wall to staple a cable down".
LOL!
I like this format of these videos where you ask a question. It clearly tells me what i am going to see; I can choose to watch for the answer or not; and the videos are short and to the point.
Thanks Mark!
Same here
Great video Bill, thanks!!!
Thanks Ted! Were the changes I made to this revised video understandable?
@@SparkyChannel yes, they were spot on!!!
Thank you.
Thanks David!
Great video! Impracticable - impossible in practice to do or carry out.
Exactly!
@Sparky Channel. Thanks Bill for remaking this video and clarifying what the NEC code says. So if we find unsupported cables in walls we shouldn't freak out necessarily unless we're sure when the work was done. I'm sure learning alot of good and useful things from you. I really appreciate that you take the feedback from your viewers and make changes for clarity.
Hope you and your family stay safe and well.
Merry Christmas.
We're all learning from each other. One thing I fully recognize is that I have an extraordinary group of viewers at this channel so I do listen to the comments and sometimes the viewer/s are right and I'm wrong. This isn't the 1st time I've taken a video down and corrected it and I'm sure that it won't be the last time. Merry Christmas to you as well!
Thank you sir keep up the good work
Thanks Ian!
@@SparkyChannel I will have a look at getting a copy of The NEC book in the new year just to see what is going on . Stay safe
@@iandrew6347 Highly recommended! :)
Thank you so much for doing these videos!!
My pleasure, thanks!
IMPRATICABLE. A new, very difficult-to-pull wire that has just been released by Southwire. Introducing................Impracti-Cable!
LOL! I just couldn't pronounce it.
@@SparkyChannel it's not you. It's a typo in the NEC book. Love your channel.
Good job Sparky. A lot of unsupported cable in walls for 3 way swithes, switches for ceiling fan / lights, and new microwaves. Also for new switches for seperate switches for bath fan, light heater combos. Enjoy your code references for common everyday wiring modifications. Thanks Sparky.
Thanks so much Gary!
Great Information
Glad it was helpful!
Now I know.
Thank you.
There you go!
I'm going to call you the "Beatles" because you have posted yet another hit !!!!!...........thanx for your commitment to the craft Bill!!!!
You just made my day, thanks!
Awesome! Thanks so much for the remake. Very clear to understand.
Excellent!
a little clearer
Thanks!
I would argue that any ceiling that had an accessible attic above it, should also be considered an accessible ceiling. As long as you could get to the wiring mentioned in (2).
If the attic is used for storage of some sort I agree with that point but most unfinished attic spaces I’ve been in are just gross and filled with insulation and the only times it gets visited is either rodents or the once every 10-50 years (if that) that a worker needs to access the space for a very specific purpose in which case I think it’s fine.
@@GB-ud6yg doesn't matter what it's used for, it's still accessible
This is of course the minimum standard. If you _can_ support them, you should. I hate when a nail kisses an electrical cable.
Yes, this is minimum standard. Good point.
I can’t imagine when anyone would nail drywall where there is no wood. This type of install also tends to be in non-insulated interior walls, no? There’s also considerable slack in the cable. Therefore, even if someone nails into the drywall alone, the nail should merely bump the cable. A more likely risk would be if someone eventually sawed into the cavity.
A clarification question - If you add another outlet at the same height as existing outlets (typically near the floor), and run the cable up through the top plate and into the attic, is this is also allowed, because walls are typically 8 feet high and at the exact middle of the wall (measured 4 feet up from the floor or 4 feet down from the ceiling), the cable is both 1) supported by the electrical outlet below and is less than 4 1/2 feet as measured at the middle and 2) supported by the staple where the cable enters the top plate and is also less than 4 1/2 feet as measured at the middle
I feel that you would be fine per 334.30 (B) number (1).
yes. if you can't get to it to staple it, you don't have to.
My instructor in electrical school used to always say if you wanted to see an electrical nightmare re wire a 1970’s mobile home. Never knew what he meant until me and my wife bought our starter home ( ‘74 mobile home). I don’t believe these manufacturers knew what a wire staple was back then cause I have not found one till this day. Wire came out of the panel up into the trusses and was lay out until it was terminated in a brown fiberglass box the was screwed to the wood paneling. The wires entered the box though a 1/2 hole that was drilled into the top. Luckily, we gutted every room and drywall so I was able to wire each room properly.
Great job!
Bill I gotta say a inspector told me they dont expect it ,but the tradesman in me says if ya get a staple in and usually you can ..you should do so
Excellent! The answer I was hoping for.
Great video concepts Sparky. Love watching them
Thanks! 👍
Call me crazy but I’m remodeling my house and even though I’m not taking down all the drywall in certain part of the house,but when I need to run a new home run or outlet etc. I’ll just cut in to the dry wall around for the outlet to support the new cable and even make a small section on of the wall before the ceiling to support the cable. It’s just a habit.
Thank you sir. I've been wandering about this for a long time. this clears it up for me. love you're videos. 👍🏼
Glad to hear it!
stop wandering and come back home (wondering)
Thanks for clearing that up!
I actually was thinking about this law a few months ago when I added a fixed light in the laundry room. I fished the wire through an outside wall to the switch than across the rafter joist to the light. Where I could I stapled it every 4 feet to the light
Sounds fine with me.
Thanks for your videos sparky!
Bill, if I'm extending from an existing plastic 1-gang new work box by adding an old work 1-gang box on the opposite side of the same wall cavity, do I still need to worry about 314.17(B)(2) clamping requirements, even though 334.30(B)(1) allows me to fish cable unsupported?
314.17(B)(2) provides an exception if the NM is secured within 8" of the box without a clamp, so I suppose the added old work box's built-in clamp could meet that exception IF located within 8" of the existing box's knock out -- is that right?
What happens if the boxes need to be more than 12" apart though? Does that mean I either need to saw out the existing new work box and replace it with something that has clamps (or cut drywall holes) to meet clamping requirements at the box, even though 334.30(B)(1) lets me fish cables unsupported?
I love how you've studied the applicable codes! You are correct using 334.30(B)(1) allowing to fish cable unsupported IMO.
Who even cares tbh, the inspector ain’t ripping the wall down to check
I could tell you stories.....
@@SparkyChannel alot of our viewers are still learning and guys and gals were just trying to help you be your best ..wanna be a smart ass become a plumber
Who cares? What a stupid question. With close to 42,000 views and 1,100 thumbs-up, it seems like a lot of people care. A lot of people care to learn code, unlike you who simply doesn't care. Glad I don't work with you.
I’m going to tell my wife, “I’m going ‘Fishing’ tomorrow, no reason to pack a lunch for me” .LOL
LOL! Good one!
334.30(B)(1) seems to be subject to interpretation and not specific. Regarding the finished wall, opening the wall for a staple at 8 inches is impracticable according to whom? The owner that doesn't want to pay to refinish the extra hole or the building inspector that isn't going to pay for the wall repair?
So you routinely open holes in finished walls large enough to staple Romex to a stud? I call bs.
Good question - Great explanation! 🤠👍
Can you install romex surface mounted to the wall?
Thanks 😊
Darn all the drywallers have just lost work here lol.
LOL!
It does specify nm cable but what about MC cable?
In the wall I’m saying
@@SparkyChannel article 330 covers MC cable. it has pretty much the same exceptions.
@@kenbrown2808 Cool, thanks! I think that MC would be a better choice for fishing behind a wall.
@@SparkyChannel MC is always a bit more work to strip and secure to the box. it also doesn't slide as easily as NM in an insulated wall.
Great series
You would think code would require the use of a cable to box securing device that keeps the cable from being pulled back out of the box when it can't be stapled near the box (also eliminating the possibility of stress being placed on the connections within the box should the cable be put under some external pull).
Can you go over switch loops ? Specifically relating to ceiling fans with a light fixture operates by a switch?
I used
Excellent!
Very crisp and to the point -- really helpful! One question -- if there is an attic over a room, is the ceiling considered accessible and therefore the cable needs to be supported beyond 4 1/2 feet? Or is it OK to fish/lay cable without staples?
I know it would always be better to staple the cable, but if for some reason it is not easy to do in the attic, would it be a code violation?
Is it accessible?
@@michael931 Yes, accessible through a hatch/opening in a closet into the attic. Not easy (no attic ladder) but can be accessed if needed.
Am I the only one that got a Jurassic Park vibe when we're flying over the Hoover dam.
Like welcome to power generation gorge. LOL
That was fun being in that helicopter!
No!
Correct! :)
Doesn't the cable need to be protected where it passes through the attic floor?
It's not the attic floor, it's a ceiling....LoL
@@blueplasma5589 all about perspective
It is protected, by its sheathing.
Since it isn't a "sharp" edge, like a metal box, additional protection isn't mandated.
Nah
Where I live in Canada you have to have some slack between the last staple and the box, but in Arizona they pull it tight. What does the NEC say?
Sparky channel has a recent video about that
Check out my video: Is this Cable Stapling Legal? 2020 NEC 334.30: ua-cam.com/video/pPjGcvgy72I/v-deo.html It shows the max the NEC allows but the least they would allow would be pulled tight. I feel that it is more professional to do the proper cable securing but give some slack to help future electricians in case the wires get cut short or something of the sort.
What about applications involving MC?
I'm glad you asked! That video is coming up tomorrow. I also went over the differences between fishing NM and MC cables. Tune in tomorrow! :)
Im pract i ca ble
🎄☃️🍻🍺☃️🎄
Same to you brother!
Why do you use 12 AWG in many of your videos instead of 14AWG?
Great videos!
That way, if someone adds onto the circuit you have a better chance of not being overloaded.
@@SparkyChannel Ding ding ding -- correct!!! The cost differential is minimal and you can upgrade without more work.
15 or 20 amp circuit? 14 AWG is already derated....
@@Sparkchaser1 14, 12, & 10 sheathed cable(romex) are all derated. The reason he uses 12 is and will always be the best choice! Now in many jurisdictions (city county etc)will not allow 14 on any new, or remodel work so it 12 or larger
Thank you for your question ......===++each day i learn my home more and more.......
👍😎🤠🇺🇲🇺🇲
Hi Jim! Hope everything is well!
Nope.
Correct!
totally not trying to be a jerk, but just for the hell of it, FYI... impracticable is pronounced like "imm practice a bull"
Thanks, that's a practical comment! :) 👍
No...in both British and American pronounciation, it is Im prak tick a bull. His pronounciation is correct.
Google says sparky is correct
No, he pronounced it correctly.