The Problem With Kasumi in Persona 5 Royal
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- Опубліковано 15 тра 2021
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I really love Sumire in P5R but I could never shake these concerns when it came to her persona. However even with my issues concerning it, I still think it remains one of the most interesting personas to discuss even if it involves a bit more conflict and careful consideration.
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I offer another interpretation: Cendrillon is meant to be a dark inversion of Cinderella. The allegory for the prince in Sumire's life isn't Joker, but Dr. Maruki. He believes that if he just helps her live in a lie that she's actually Kasumi, then she'll live a happy life much like the folkore figure that inspired her Persona, taking away all her problems and "saving her". What he doesn't countenance though is that his influence only makes her pain worse, causing Cendrillon to go berserk.
After Sumire joins the Phantom Thieves as Violet though, Cendrillon eventually evolves to become Vanadis: not only a trickster deity like the rest of the Phantom Thieves' Tier 2's, but one resembling Arsene: Joker's main Persona. Joker only ever becomes the "Prince" in the story after Sumire asserts her own will and overcomes her mental health issues.
I was going to say a less explained version of this, glad I looked through the comments first.
You could also argue that Joker isn't the Prince, but the fairy godmother.
The prince ? The prince is Kasumi herself (her true awakening, plus her showtime do show things going in that sense, as she helps absolving Sumire of her guilt).
Then Cendrillon isn't anymore about being saved by others, but rather about accepting help in overcoming life's trial, and accepting that guilt is something that will stick with you, but can be empowering to become better instead of letting it drag one down.
Still don't change the fact she was add on for zero reason
@@ooofthedegenerate it kind of does. Remember that this video is still his opinion, he even acknowledges it at the beginning. There is no "fact" about this, because we don't know what went through the creators' minds when creating this persona. As far as we know this comment could be the actual reason, which honestly would make sense and would fit Sumire's arc too.
@@24_JoeJoe_24 her arc it self is pretty great my problem is why was she even added like if you took her out of the Maruki conflict and just have her be an extra confidant where she stays the same person but has the same arc of getting over her survivors guilt then nothing with actual meaning would change you would just not get to see Maruki's palace before the 3rd semester and have the only conflict be the battle of ideologies between The phantom Thieves and Maruki which would've worked much better seeing as they could dedicated even more time to an already great character in Maruki
I definitely feel like a second Persona in her reawakening would have fit really well.
Any ideas what it could have been? maybe have her true persona be Ella, it could show that like cinderella she doesn't have to be someone she's not.
@@dantegrimm6439
Then what would her third-tier Persona be?
@@slimballs9650 honestly I like the third tier personas aesthetically but not conceptionally. It always seemed like a downgrade to go from trickster god back to normal rebel, maybe the thieves should have just had the 1 evolution. Not to mention that with sumire the gap between her 2nd and 3rd evolution is so short you get little to no chance to even use vanadis.
@@dantegrimm6439
Since Golden did that with the P4 cast, Royal would follow suit.
@@slimballs9650 well each to their own. At least with golden the 3rd tier didn't seem like a downgrade. Thou I wonder why neither of the protagonists got a 3rd tier. I know Joker can get Raoul but he's dlc.
Tbh, mightve just been my unga bunga caveman brain, but my thought process was that in the story of cinderella that Kasumi was the princess part of Ella and sumire was the abused girl at home, with the story ending with the fusing of the two. Though i enjoyed the video, and your thought process seems way more fleshed out ngl
That make sense, in the story it says Kasumi was always a step ahead of Sumire
That's what I thought too.
I always saw cendrillon as a subversion of cinderella. The reality where she lives as kasumi is like that of when cinderella was turned into a princess. Its not who she is, but who she wishes to be. I also think that maruki not only plays the role of fairy godmother but also that of the Prince. He is what brought sumire into the role of kasumi and also the one who kept her in this falsehood. When cendrillon became corrupt she kept saying things that were about her trying to deny her previous life and "not wanting it to hit midnight" or something (its been a while since I played so I can't remember exactly). These lines show me that she knows that her life is fake but refuses to go back to how it was to her 'abusive sister'. By that I mean 'kasumi' said that she doesn't want to live as her sisters killer again, being sumire. This fake kasumi sees her sister as her killer and by proxy abusive. Having cendrillon as her persona is basically a symbol of who she wishes to be, but also a symbol of what she isn't supposed to be. I'd like to say more but I'm not that good at explaining what I mean.
I love how nice this guy is. Even when people disagree with him he's heartin' comments.
I love to see everyone's thoughts even if they don't align with my own!
If only more people were that tolerant it would be a better world.
@@3Waifu This sounds extremely like Maruki lol
That's illegal, son.
@@henriqueteixeira2998my man is Maruki at this point
I felt like to Sumire Joker was like the personas in a sense. A projection of her own strength into an external source. She wasn't dependant on him in any way, it's just that through him she could recognize and access her true strength as a person. That's why something as small as Joker cheering for her was so significant.
I think the difficult part of choosing a Persona for Sumire is the fact that it has to apply to her in both realities: The one where she's convinced she's Kasumi and the other where she knows she isn't. Since a Persona encapsulates everything unique about that character, it's really difficult to write one that applies to basically two different characters at the same time. I think Cendrillon was chosen to match the idea of her "new life" effectively just being a fairy tale and, in reality, she comes to understand that, even though she hated herself so harshly, she was worth loving on her own. Effectively, Cendrillon reflects her role in Maruki's reality as a girl living out her fantasy, and once she's accepted her truth, Cendrillon stops representing the *character* of Cinderella and more the *story* of Cinderella. That is to say, Sumire's entire character reflects everything in the story. She's her own Ella, her own evil step-sisters, *and* her own Prince Charming.
I feel that her first persona is more connected with Dr Maruki (a false godmother) giving her a false escape. But Ella (I think that’s the name of her 3rd persona) definitely has a wedding theme, indicating that Cinderella married the prince and has a better life now. Representing Sumire and her triumph over her depression. Sure the “marrying the prince” thing is a little Eh, but I think the use of the wedding motif is just to represent a better life.
I honestly think joker as “the prince” isn’t really an issue because he saved Sumire from a world of delusions, and through her own strength and the support of her friends she finally accepted reality. She needed to be saved in the first place because the circumstances with Dr Maruki were extremely unique. But in terms of her mental health (with support from friends just like in real life) she overcame it herself.
I feel like a broken record, I guess I’m just trying to think of multiple different scenarios to explain the same thing.
Another argument I have is that not everything will be a perfect match, for example the real life captain Kidd absolutely killed people and possible “sexually forced” himself onto other people because he was a pirate. Now of course we don’t know that, I’m just saying there will always be details that don’t match up with the character they represent.
Still a great analysis video as always, cool to see what you think of the story.
I see where you’re coming from. My main thing with Sumire is that I wish when she reawakened her Persona, it was Vanadis instead of Cendrillion. That shows she’s retaking her own identity rather than reclaiming the one Kasumi had. Do you think that would make her arc flow better?
Yes! I can see that! It's more fitting color wise too lol.
@@thelegendaryace1395 Yeah. And then, when the two fuse together into Ella, it could feel like a successful balance between the two sisters. It’s Sumire, but with the traits of Kasumi she wants to keep forever. Give Ella some red highlights to make this balance more obvious though
That also makes more sense with her Metaverse outfit being a gender-flipped version of Joker's (Which I have issues with tbh), since Vanadis is basically Female Arsene in design
@@somasora7 I guess it is? The coat is probably the closest part. The rest feels pretty specific to her
I think the pivot from Cendrillon onto Vanadis was an excellent move for her arc! I think that takes away some of the concerns I have with Cendrillon, but then they double down and give her Ella as a third tier, which unfortunately brings back some concerns lol
I definitely agree with you, although there's one consideration which isn't really canon which I use to make it feel a bit less awkward.
I don't see Cendrillon as *Sumire*'s Persona. Yes, she uses it, but I don't like considering it hers. The way her story works, during third semester Sumire is more or less a different person to "Kasumi" during the vanilla era, in a similar way to how someone with a multiple personality disorder would be considered a different "person", and I believe would have a different Persona to match that fact.
To me, Cendrillon is either Kasumi or "Kasumi"'s Persona, it's just a question of whether it's technically a creation of Maruki, or her sister being channeled through Sumire. But either way, Cendrillon, to me, doesn't reflect who Sumire is, that's the goal of her second awakening, Vanadis. I'm not sure on the lore behind that Persona personally, the Compendium series is really my first time looking into Personas in this way (and I'm super enjoying it), but to me *that* is Sumire's Arsene, and Ella is formed by Sumire finding the balance of who she was, who she wants to be, and coming out of her sister's shadow she put herself in (another part of why I see Cendrillon as Kasumi's Persona, rather than Sumire's).
It's just how I see it, but it feels like it just adds up that bit more as to why the Cinderella story doesn't fit in the ways it needs to to fully connect, while still having those connections elsewhere (such as Fairy Godtherapist Maruki)
Edit: looking through the few comments already here, a couple people mentioned if she had awoken to Vanadis directly or an altered version of Cendrillon when getting her Persona back when the team comes together, rather than returning to base Cendrillon, there's a chance her arc would've flowed better. I agree with that, and just wanted to add it in here
You make the point better than I did, man. Good job! I still really like Sumire, but it’s things like this that make me wish a few small things were done differently
This is my interpretation as well. Like I consider Vanadis (and obviously Ella) to be Sumi's proper persona. And yeah, she should've awakened to Vanadis upon returning to Maruki's palace after the Cendrillon boss fight.
I always thought that Sumire's arc is similar to Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy 7.
Now that I think about it... they really are similar ! Thanks for pointing it out
Other random things that P5R and Ffvii, specifically the ff7 remake, have in common.
A boss where you have to take out tentacles in order to hit the main body. Remake has Jenova Dreamweaver while Royal has Azathoth.
The last battle takes place in the highway where the heroes try to stop fate itself in order to carve their own path. Remake has the Whispers while Royal has Adam Kadmon.
I've got the Persona 5 Royal Art Book and it actually has a small interview with Shigenori Soejima, the character designer of (among others) Yoshizawa and here persona. Regarding her persona it says this:
"Kasumi's first persona, Cendrillon, features a glass slippers and clock motif. The main cast's Personas were all designed around famous fictional characters, and each has an underlying feeling of "incompleteness" to them-as the characters grow, their Personas "evolve". The intent with Cendrillon was, while she gains her magical powers from someone else and only pretends to be a princess, she evolves to become a strong woman who can stand on her own. However, Kasumi is still developing as a person when players first meet het, so her initial Persona ereflects this aspect of her character"
I have to say personally that I think this is kinda flawed. I don't think I've ever heard or read a version of Cinderella where she "evolves to become a strong woman who can stand on her own". But yeah, I thought it might be nice to add to the discussion.
Her evolution in becoming a strong woman is represented by Vanadis followed by the fruit of her development of becoming who she truly wanted to be outside of reliance of Maruki’s reality on her own being represented with Ella
He wasn't talking about Cendrillon evolving, he was talking about Sumire. Anyway, thank you for quoting this.
Ok I know I'm seeing this a year late, but the movie is "Ever After" (although she's portrayed as mostly standing on her own from the start)
Amazing Video I never viewed Cendrillon as strictly Sumire's persona.
I always saw her as a combination of Kasumi and Sumire hence Kasumi reappearing in Sumire's re awakening and the fact Cendrillon shares the grace of Sumire and the power that Kasumi were known for in their performances which can be seen in their attack animation and moveset
That what I thought as well because her first awakening was Kasumi not Sumire, who her actual persona is her second awakening form.
Its canon that the dead can become personas so theres that.
love the content!
I always love looking at things with a critical eye so it great to see you picking apart P5
Honestly I'd thought it was fitting enough as a version of the Cinderella story that gives more agency to Ella but you made lots of fantastic points here. To me the parallels made Sumire's own efforts feel a lot more impactful (not that her story needed that). I never picked up on Joker being an allegory for the prince and the implications that has on her arc but I also saw his role in her arc as helping her along her own path rather than magically fixing her problems. The whole reason it took her so long to move on is because Maruki tried to solve her problems with his Persona, but yeah I can easily see the unfortunate implications
Discovered your channel yesterday, and I'm binging it. Keep up with the good work!
I'd love to hear you talk about Futaba, she's one of my favorite persona characters in general with so many details from her entire palace to character quirks that make her very fleshed out, relatable and interesting.
Definitely have plans for Futaba, like... very soon!
@@3Waifu That's awesome, I can't wait to see that. Over the years she became one of the most relatable characters to me, losing a parent, feeling guilt from it, the reclusive and escapist lifestyle from trauma and a fear and distrust of the world and its people. There's so much to say about her, she's one of P5s greatest characters
Yep. First video of your channel I have seen. Great video. Thank you.
I think the degree at which you're meant to apply a persona's story to the associated character varies, since some could be unsavoury if applied in their entirety but work fine as broad strokes metaphorical comparisons. They're more interpretations of a character than the character themselves.
A more generous reading of Cendrillon is that she put the work to make her dress and go to the ball despite not being allowed there and to persevere until she was in a position where she could safely deal with her situation. Yeah the fairy godmother gave her a new dress when her old one was destroyed and the prince fitting the slipper was what got her out but none of that would've happened if she hadn't worked so hard to make her dress to go to the ball in the first place and she was the one who left enough of an impression for him to look for her afterwards. Needing help to get out of a bad situation doesn't mean you didn't still put a lot of work into getting out of it, it just means someone helped you get the resources you needed to do so.
The issues I see with her personas in relation to Joker is more in how her metaverse aesthetics are too closely tied to him in a way that pushes shipping them way too hard. Her thief outfit is made to match Joker's to portray him as her main inspiration for her image of rebellion, Vanadis is made to look like Arsène and Ella is literally a bride with Joker as the presumed groom because of the prince metaphor. It comes off like her self-image is too heavily tied to him even without reading into the personas' beyond aesthetics. A lot of what they did with her seems like the tied her too heavily to him for romance reasons at her detriment.
Thank you for the video!
Thank you for the comment!
Really enjoyed this video :)
I actually agree! Maybe she might have fit in terms of Sumire becoming someone else in order to go to the "ball" (like Cinderella kinda did so her step family wouldn't recognize her) but overall after watching this video i get why it doesn't really work.
However, i DID read an excellent post on tumblr comparing both Sumire and Kasumi to the Swan princess story! It was really incredible, and the idea of Sumire's true persona being Odette from that story really intrigued me. I'll link it if you like because it goes waaaay more in depth than i can lmao 🤣 but great video dude!👍🏾👍🏾
my main problem is that i can’t go on dates with her before 3rd semester. cmon atlus, i’m lonely...
Save before valentines and white day dates whenever you want to go through again you can do it I made a third playtrought because of that sole reason
100% agree with your conclusions! When I first saw Cendrillion as Kasumi's/Sumire's persona I could not understand the connections between her and Cinderella's stories. They are Kind of not so obvious as for other teammates.
When i look at candrillon compareing it to sumire would be that the story of cinderella in reverse meaning like how it could be between the fact that a guy came along with her happyish life and made it plummit to the rock bottom to have sumire try climbing up with the help of the friends she makes in the 3d semester being influenced by joker and the phantom thiefs to wave the flag of rebellion not as the prince or the godfather in her story rather like a reverse of the evil step famly that cinderella had to deal with being adopted by the phantom thiefs along with aketchi to help her recover slowly
So perhaps a better idea is, after Cendrillions fight, once she's resummoned, she's got a new name and/or look? Perhaps at least a color change. A bit of a... more tragic Robin Hood/Loki situation. 🤔
It WOULD Foil her with Akechi more, which would he fun.
Who do you think would work better for Sumire do you think?
I brought this up earlier, but have her reawaken to Vanadis. It’s already there, and would signify Sumire’s personality more. And it gives Vanadis more screen time before fusing into Ella
@@janussimonsen24 Definitely would've made the "True Awakening" scene in the 3rd semester make more sense. Always thought is was a bit confusing to have her rip her mask off again when nothing changed as far as her Persona or her PT outfit goes
Okay so, I'll start by saying that I enjoyed the video but I also have an idea about cendrillon's connection to sumire.
Sumire got her persona back when she was still Kasumi or at least her interpretation of what kasumi was like, cendrillon is a manifestation of sumire's idea of kasumi.
Perfect in every way. But as royal continued we got to learn about what sumire really thought about kasumi and how jealous she was of her and how she hated being compared to her. She hated being herself most all to the point that she discarded who she was originally in the hopes as finally being seen as someone special. Maruki was her way of making that happen, allowing her to forget the pain that she felt when kasumi was alive and after she died. But the dream had to end eventually, and sumire was forced to see who she actually was, like when cinderella was forced to leave the ball,
We watch as sumire is forced to confront the nature of her problem but the result is worth it. Sumire breaks from kasumi's shadow and forms her own identity. But why did she keep the persona? I think cendrillon took on a different meaning: everyone has their moment at the ball if only we could recognize it. Sumire just needed to remember that she was her own person and not an imitation of someone else. I think her story makes sense, she pretends to be someone else, and wakes up to the truth. Is the execution perfect? Not really. Am I grasping at straws? Yeah. Did I enjoy the story? Definitely.
Thanks for reading this really long comment.
exactly. she should have gotten a 2nd persona with her re awakening
I never even thought of this but i do agree, honestly my biggest issue with Yoshizawa as a character is how she’s shoehorned into the team. Yoshizawa really doesn’t have any meaningful interactions with any Phantom Thieves besides Joker and Morgana ig so when she’s just added to the Phantom Thieves it just didn’t feel right to me. The bull of Yoshizawa’s whole identity arc happens while the rest of the thieves are absent so that just makes it stand out even more and it’s very off putting.
This might be a bit unpopular, but I honestly felt like it was both the best and least risky way to incorporate her in the story. If they tried to include scenes with her and the rest of the thieves before the third semester, it'd most likely cause her to feel out of place due to her obviously not being in the story beforehand, much like Marie in P4G. It'd be like pretending that someone that you've never met is suddenly this friend you've known for months. But by centering her around her interactions with Joker and her relationship with him, it still gives her ample screentime and development, and come the third semester, where she does join the thieves, it allows her do so far more organically due to it being new story content specifically written for her+Maruki.
@@amirgarcia547 interesting take but i disagree, I feel that the best way to naturally incorporate Yoshizawa into the Phantom Thieves would be pretty simple by doing what they did with Maruki. Maruki got time to talk with each Phantom Thief at a differ time without Joker being involved, this helped establish how he’d understand what they wished for in his world, i think this could’ve also worked for Kasumi by having her interact with the thieves before she joins the team but it also wouldn’t hault the story either. This way she wouldn’t seem like such a stranger among the thieves plus this could’ve fixed her ending by allowing her to just be in the car at the end (Not to mention i’d love to see how she and Futaba would interact with eachother seeing as they’re the youngest Phantom Thieves).
I just think she doesn't need to be in the game at all like what would meaningfully change if she were to just disappear
You guys seem to forget, Sumire is awakened to Cendrillion before the truth is revealed that she isn't Kasumi. Therefore, Joker isn't the prince, but Maruki is. Maruki gave Sumire a "Happily Ever After." It isn't until Joker reminded her that she can write her own story, that she is able to have her second true awakening. At least that's how I always seen it.
mm I disagree. Maruki seems like a parallel to the fairy god mother, and living as kasumi is the dress and stuff. I say this cause snapping out of her kasumi dream (which, btw, happens on 1/2) and having to face the reality of being sumire is pretty obviously portrayed as the clock striking midnight. I mean, Cendrillon literally says "and the clock strikes midnight" when she loses in her boss fight.
@@erachiiii I forgot about that last detail. I just started NG+ after beating it last year. So I might have forgotten a few details.
Actually when you look at Cinderella both the original story and the Disney version which Can easily see the influences i.e. The persona having a blue Dress.
The story of Cinderella isn't just girl gets lucky. It is a story about a girl who lost everything And turned into a servant in her own home stolen by her step family.
who despite this horrible situation and complete lost of loved ones she maintained a hard working And caring soul.
As seen in the Disney version she was a kind soul to help out multiple people and her friends
When the ball finally arrived Cinderella did everything she could to go to the ball.
And it was only Her dress was torn and she was put into a completely devastated devastated state is only when her Fairy godmother arrived to help her out and even then that helping out was very limited to not even a full night just to go to a party.
From there Is Cinderella Especially In the Disney version having Winning over the Prince not by her good looks and beautiful dress but her kind soul underneath.
Unfortunately was forced to leave Early and due to multiple happenstances would do to the Prince trying to find her They traveled all over the kingdom to see who can fit a shoe.
The Disney version adding more drama by having if it wasn't for her friends that she helped out helping her out she would never be able to wear the slipper to prove she was the one.
sumire Has a lot of elements of the Cinderella story in her. She is hard working and a kind soul just like Cinderella.
she had a significant person of her life get killed and trapped in a state In a horrible position.
And let's face she wouldn't have broken out of the kusumai mindset if the Phantom thieves and joker didn't intervene.
But just like Cinderella sumire Has the same fortitude and willpower to better herself.
Really the only difference between is their fair godmother for one was a detriment.
trying to knock down the Cinderella story and saying that it's an insult to sumire just because The Classic literature and the Disney version didn't go into the mental Issues that would come along Cinderella life seems a bit disingenuous.
Good Video I enjoyed it a lot, I understand what you say, but I interpret it differently.
I don't know if you remember but when "Kasumi" wakes up her persona, cendrillon says to her, "so these are the shoes you have decided to take" that sentence makes it clear to me that cendrillon is not Sumire's persona since she believed that it was kasumi that's why cendrillon tells her that because she knows that she's not Sumire, if not Sumire trying to be Kasumi, that's why I think that the Cinderella story fits perfectly with "Kasumi", or Sumire trying to be Kasumi, because if we We go to the alternate ending of Persona 5 Royal where everyone lives in false reality. It could be said that Kasumi (Cinderella) can live a happy life with her prince, thanks to her fairy godmother (Maruki).
I don't know if I explain it well, but I like that there are many interpretations about this. So thank you for reading this and I wish you all a happy day. :)
Great video, very well-made points, and I would offer a different perspective. I think trying to interpret Sumire's arc to be Cinderella's is the main error here.
The usage of several elements from the Cinderella story is actually more of a comment and criticism of the story. It is not to directly make Sumire an analogy for Cinderella, but to actually show how this fairy tale type of story is in some ways incompatible with a deeper, more realistic character.
To explain, I would posit that in a better world where Kasumi didn't die, Sumire simply would not have ever had Cendrillon as a persona. Cendrillon is the manifestation of Sumire's idea of her sister that she performs and tells herself that's who she is. Once we realize this, it's quite clear why Sumire's story and Cinderella's are incompatible: Sumire is not Kasumi.
With this in mind, reading Sumire's story now makes more sense, especially with how it appears to be a corruption of the original folk tale. The narrative of P5R incorporates the story of Cinderella in stark contrast to other inspirations like Arsene Lupin, Captain Kidd, etc, to show how its narrative disgrees with the messaging of Cinderella.
There are two points in the game in which we, the player, actively fight Sumire/Cendrillon (we only ever fight one other party member, and that is Akechi, and I don't need to explain why we fight him), and in one of those fights Cendrillon is making direct references in dialogue to the story of Cinderella. These moments are the narrative actively deconstructing and conveying its critique of the story of Cinderella through gameplay.
In this sense, Joker is not the Prince at all. He can't be, because he does not fit into the story of Cinderella and outright rejects it being imposed on Sumire by Maruki. Maruki is both the Fairy Godmother and the Prince, because in the end they both grant Cinderella's wishes in some way, and she didn't really work or try terribly hard to earn either of these things.
It is this wish-fulfillment of the Cinderella story that Maruki believes is the right way, and that is the main thing P5R and the Phantom Thieves reject.
I'd also like to address the later scene in which Kasumi "reawakens" to Cendrillon, since it seems to reaccept the Cinderella story at face value. I interpret this as Sumire revising her conception of Kasumi (and therefore, Cendrillon) in order to coexist with herself, since she still feels like a part of her sister is with her. In this sense, it's OK to still identify with a story like Cinderella's, but it's important to also acknowledge the flaws it has if you do apply it to your identity (Sumire learns that she can still identify with Kasumi in some ways, but can't be her sister completely, even when that concept of her sister isn't the idealized version she once thought of her as).
I think this part of Sumire's arc is harder to recognize since it's a tad more subtle and complex in its conclusion. Sumire just gets Cendrillon back, not an evolved form or anything. That doesn't mean she doesn't change though, she clearly has. The dialogue as well as the cinematography of that scene tells us that.
I think most people were expecting a distinct change for Sumire's persona in that scene, but it wasn't what we got, which isn't inherently bad. I guess either the writers/directors didn't want to place THAT much emphasis on this moment or simply didn't have the resources to go all out for this scene on top of everything else.
This is why Cendrillon was implemented into Sumire's arc. They are meant to be incompatible. It does reduce her character struggles initially, but that is because she is living the lie that she has no internal struggles (her initial concept of Kasumi was an unrealistically perfect girl, not unlike Cinderella). It WOULD reduce her struggles much more if the game didn't signal that some of the values of the Cinderella story are wrong.
The way I always thought of it is that it was Kasumi’s persona and Sumire still keeps it in remembrance of her twin sister because they had the same dream to compete in gym championships and she wants to fulfill that. If that makes any sense.
I REALLY hated how much agency she lost 😂
Didn't care for her the WHOLE DAMN GAME
Got invested in her when it was just Joker and Akechi laying into her confusion
I guess you could say it's SYMBOLIC
Gonna be another banger 💯
Did you know that jokers persona was originally planned to be mephistopheles
The... Cat?
@@MarioGMan25 mephistopheles is a figure from german folklore with big connections to the faust myth, wich was later used as inspirations for goethes faust tragedy, wich in turn was an inspiration for jung. Mephistopheles is (at least in goethes books) the devil, who made a deal with professor. Mephisto served him in his live and Should faust at any point beg the current moment to stay, he will imideatly die and will have to serve mephisto in hell. Remember how arsene said "though thoull be chained to hell itself" and how hes kinda demonic? Mephisto was meant to be that
I never really considered that Cendrillion was reductive to Sumire as a character, but put in this perspective I agree that it was kind of an offbeat choice fore Sumire. This is genuinely a super interesting video, and I would love to see more like it in the video. (I made a comment on the Cendrillon video that came to the back of my mind while I watched this one, and I noticed many of the parts you said were rather frustrating were things that I kind of praised in that comment. I'm assuming it's coincidence, obviously. I'm not that important, but I'm sorry if that comment came across as airheaded or poorly considered. I partially made it for the sake of making a comment, and I will say I very much agree with your points in the video, though I can't say it wasn't a generally stupid comment to make in retrospect.) Anyways, keep up the awesome work!
I think with Cendrillon there is SO much good baked into the persona and the character! While I do have my concerns with it I still genuinely really like it and I think everyone should feel free to enjoy it however they please! I always enjoy the comments and support from viewers like you and comments like these are always a pleasure to read!
Sumire is one of the best written characters in p5, and as you said it is sad that her persona doesn't fit her Journey. I was actually hoping that her ultimate persona would fix it but it still is about the cinderella tale. Doesn't chge the fact that she is great character tho
Yup. She’s still a really good character
The thumbnail is a bit overdramatic for me. To me it gives the immediate impression " Oh I'm not gonna like this" Even if someone were to agree with some of your points "Persona 5's biggest failure" implies a very dramatic critique.
Anywho if I'm honest I feel like you were reaching quite a bit with this video. And in some cases you seemed to look at Sumire and Cinderella's comparisons/themes in a really literal sense. Saying the story is saying that Sumire needed a man to save her. It just seems really out there. But for the sake of argument let's keep in mind that initially she refused to become Sumire. She left Joker and Akechi and chose Maruki's reality. You can almost see it as Joker and Akechi had to force her to accept reality. She so desperately wanted to be Kasumi that she actually fights you to escape the reality of being Sumire.
And afterwards she does grow, she realizes her faults and weaknesses, then works hard to overcome them and accept who she is in reality.
Now to be clear I'm not saying Sumire is a damsel who needed a man or anything like that, but it is important to note that at least at first she needed Joker to be able to accept her reality. And after that you see in her second awakening she rejects everyone's help when surrounded by shadows. There she overcomes her weakness on her own.
I hope I don't seem too harsh I just think on at least some level you looked at the Cinderella themes in a bit too much of a literal sense. And I'm sure you do a hell of a lot more research than I do when it comes to this stuff, so it's entirely possible you see things that I don't. But with that said, this is how I feel.
On that note, keep up the work, even if I disagree it is an interesting topic and I appreciate the constant Persona discussions. :)
He's gotta get people to click on it somehow, and hyperbole is an effective way to do so unfortunately.
@@Rodrigo-uo9ww Could've been something like "Concerning implications" You can be eye catching without being overdramatic.
@@AgentZ46 you play the UA-cam game better with clickbait, it's just how it is lol
@@Kaibaka It's how it is because that's what people do. There's no unwritten rule that you have to be overdramatic. As I said you can be eyecatching without over dramatization.
Thanks for the detailed comment! I appreciate feedback like this a lot TBH! I think you raise a lot of valid points and a lot of it comes down to a matter of interpretation. I think we all read stories differently which leads to different takes on their subject matter. For this video I really tried to apply the same level of connection between Sumire and Cendrillon as I would Akechi and Robin Hood. For me I felt in that context things fell a bit short, but I don't believe every person has to share this opinion!
(as for the thumbnail I get where you're coming from and I agree it is a bit much but... I gotta play the youtube game and stuff like that works a bit more than you may expect lol)
I think the goal of making that her persona is that like her first awakening its meant to be what she would've have liked herself to be like her sister the perfect girl/lady which is show with how much her sister is show as the persona and joker and her move however i agree the byproduct gave her an unfortunate if we read it that way
You don't pull any punches when you're reviewing personas I like it let's me understand all of them in a very detailed manner it's perfect in a way.
I definitely liked the more serious video style!!
So I think maybe, just maybe, this can be seen as an inversion, or a call to the twist in time disney movie, where Cinderella has to grow to get her prince back.
I think this may have missed the point, because I did not take Cendrillon as a positive thing AT ALL. The point I felt they meant was more along the lines of "Kasumi's" rebellion is to, well, BE Kasumi Yoshizawa, the Persona even awakens when she claims such. She is rebelling, not against injustice like the rest of the Phantom Thieves, but against reality itself. Unlike Akechi, who's alternate Persona of Robin Hood is a face he mastered and learn to utilize to its fullest manifesting into another Persona, Sumire is basically just refusing to be pulled out of her denial. Her actual Persona, Vanadis, only forms when she fully rejects the idea of her being Kasumi and embraces being Sumire. When she finally steps up on her own and solves a personal issue she's been having as Kasumi by being Sumire, she finally sees the beauty in reality and wakes up from her dream and makes a better future for herself. Resulting in the birth of Ella.
TL;DR I think the point is that Cendrillon is wrong, hence why it's a boss fight, and why she can't summon it afterwards.
I always thought that she acted as her own "prince"; she was both cinderalla and prince charming
Oh boy, that title and thumbnail scares me
I felt like the way she was introduced And how her story is paced is more the issue. From playing persona 5 first and then going to royal later the way each person realizes their true selves had depth and purpose that We as the player get to experience thru the MCs eyes. With Kasumi* it feels like she was just thrust upon us without any adherence to the previous relationships of how each person was pushed to their breaking point of making their vows. Ann with being abused for the sake of Shiho, yusuke being lied to his whole adoptive life, futabas depression thru her mother's backstory. We as the player go thru alot to see and feel these hardships they're feeling and with Kasumi it's like where's the rest? The palace alone and how we are naved* in without any names or targets really brought that home to me. There's void with her to me that I think yes there's more they could've done with her.
I never thought of Joker being her 'prince', but I always saw it as Joker was the push that made Sumire evolve by herself. Without Joker and the rest of the thieves, she wouldn't of realized the dangers of Maruki's reality. When she pretended to be kasumi, she was very dependant on people (like Joker), Therefore when Joker came to help her throughout her confidant, she became more of her own person realizing she needed to be her 'own' person, or she wouldn't grow and truly accomplish the dream of herself and Kasumi. It's neither what her sister would of wanted, and what anyone else would want (which kind of plays in japan's expectations of younger siblings respecting the elder sibling's wishes as the older one protect them).
I think a bit of the inspiration might come from the original Grimm fairytale version.
you're not wrong, in fact if you'd like to learn more about it's original inspiration check out this video!
ua-cam.com/video/iH8eisWeuC8/v-deo.html
It's a deep dive into the lore, history and references baked into the persona and takes things in a less negative direction than this video!
Kasumi's persona and her character in general has annoyed me so much since the game came out i've barely been able to replay the Royal section of the game even though i love Akechi and Maruki
I'm late to the part but honestly I feel that them using Cendrillion is specifically because of one version of the tale where the step sisters break the glass shoe and Cendrillion takes it in her own hands to get the matching shoe in her possession which proved her identity thus making taking her future intimate her own hands. If Cendrillion did not take action in that case then she would have remained stuck in her situation. But because she wanted to change she finally stood up for herself and ended up taking herself out of the sit.
Which might be what Cendrllion represents. Relying on others to help you get to the stage but ultimately when the chips are down you have to take your destiny into your own hands. Which makes sense for Sumire she wouldn't have gotten a far as she did without the help from those around her, but she took the final step on her own, just like Cinderella because she genuinely wanted to change.
I feel as if you miss the point. Cendrillon is her first persona where she still commits to the lie that she's Kasumi. Maruki grants her safety which connects to the luck factor Cindarella has in her story. Sumire didn't have to work for this, she had to work to climb out of the Cindarella-like treatment because it wasn't right for her. When her Persona evolves, she steps out of the Cindarella comparison which is fitting. The canon conclusion is that Maruki saving Sumire isn't the right way, which is why she's goes back to being called Kasumi because now she has a hold of her true identity. Cendrillon is much like Robin Hood, both personas are meant to mislead you about their users and serve as what they want others to see. A persona isn't what you want other people to see, it's who you truly are. Cendrillon isn't Sumire which is why as her positive arc progresses, her true self is shown as her persona evolves.
Instead of the crystal slipper there is the hair ribbon when it turns out that Kasumi is Sumire and like when in the story the prince discovers that Cinderella is not a princess ... but he accepts her as she really is
in the last adaptations .. thanks to the spell Cinderella is recognizable only by the prince
I think most people think this. I was like what when I looked in her lore.
I think Cendrillon's connection with Sumire is more along with how Maruki helped the world to perceive her as Kasumi, acting as her fairy godmother. Sure Sumire is able to claw herself out of the darkness, which could connect to her tier-2 evolution of Cendrillon in Freya, but the Persona is an early foreshadow that we don't see until the end that Sumire accepted Maruki's quick fix to run from her problems.
Honestly, of I'm being honest, I saw Cendrillon as Sumire's persona because in Cinderella lore, she relates to Sumire alot by wanting to be a different person, both her and Sumire wore an identity if that makes sense, Cendrillon just watch her grow as a person person when she wasn't truly awakened in the scene of her fake awakening she says "if those are the shoes you've chosen, then we'll dance to the end" indicating that she will stay by her side always.
But that's my take anyways.
I just saw my mans use charge to moring star-
I be stupid mashing lol
Good analysis. I mostly agree with what you say. Which persona would be a better fit for Sumire ? It's like they made a connection to Cendrillon throught the dance. Which wouldn't be a deep connexion indeed. It wouldn't even fit Kasumi because she wasn't a kind of person to wait to be saved. Maybe it would fit more with Fate Grand Order's Ereshkigal. Posing as her sister Ishtar that she admire and hates in the same time. When she pretends to be Ishtar, she starts as very confident about herself and a self centered spoiled brat. But her true self doubting personality and kindess is always showing in the end. She's suppose to be a vilain, the Goddess ruling over the Underworld. Yet, she wants to know more about the outside world and she wants to protect the human souls that are under her care. Thought I don't know how her upgrade Persona would become.
Her second persona fits much more
I couldn't disagree with this video more tbh. You talk about "reading" a situation yet your critiques are about very surface level parts about the Cinderella tale. Cendrillon's connection to Sumire is due to the fact that Cinderella basically "changed herself" to attend the ball kinda like how Sumire wanted to change who she was. Both feel devastated once the spell breaks and their true selves are revealed. Joker and the prince but don't care about the facade and accept who she really is. Ngl it feels pretty powerful. Nothing about it is "reductive".
This, Cinderella is used to represent the double life we see with kasumi/sumire, with the version of Cinderella that we see go to the Ball representing Kasumi, and the maid/servant version of Cinderella representing sumire. That’s not even going into the potential inferences you could draw with how the other characters in P5R relate and represent other Cinderella-like characters for Sumire.
That seems more like an actual stretch especially since sumires really doesn't have connections to Cinderella looking at the context of the story as well as the real world implications of one going through survivors guilt as well as denial of reality and the constant self doubt that she viewed her sister as this perfect person.
Cinderella's story whether the very original version or somewhere along the lines of the Walt Disney version really don't have that sorta connection
Does anyone think at all that some parts of the personas symbolism is ment for Kasumi, and not for Sumire? When Sumire awoke to her persona, she was still thinking she was Kasumi. Do you think Cendrillon represents both?
Or is there something that disproves me suggestion and I just dont realize it?
I think that is absolutely possible! (and perhaps something I wish to look into in the future!)
@@3Waifu OH REALLY‽
AWESOME!!!
It was just a thought I had, but I'm glad that I brought it to your attention
Personally, I don't see Joker as the Prince, I see Maruki as the Prince, one of the games core themes are about breaking through the story determined for you, Maruki offers to send her down her cinderella story by fixing her problems, but in the end she declines, dealing with her problems on her own terms. Or atleast that's my subjective take
Based.
I agree with you here even tho cendrillon is one of my favorite personas along side athena artemesia konohana sakuya
You make some interesting and fair points, though I felt at times that you were strangling the allegory with a standard of comparison that you weren't holding the other Personas to.
You extol Joker's connection to Arsène as fulfilling an archetype, that of a gentleman thief, and state the "general messages... line up with Joker's story arc", and I don't disagree with your reasoning on Sumire's disconnect from the surface-level themes of Cinderella. But faulting the latter while lauding the former feels like complaining that Yusuke is estranged from Goemon because he doesn't have a son and isn't boiled alive, or that Ryuji's "youthful rebellion" is undermined by his lack of government commission as a privateer. (I'm not trying to be reductive about your arguments, but rather illustrate how any allegory breaks down as you impose more literal interpretations.)
Sumire is a girl given a chance to pretend she's someone she's not in order to escape her pain and suffering for a short time. Just as the Fairy Godmother's gift isn't what solves Cinderella's problems, Maruki's gift isn't what helps Sumire truly move on from her circumstances. It's only when the clock strikes midnight and "Kasumi" disappears that we can do that. In both cases, the gift is an inciting incident of their arcs, not the resolution.
I don't fault your premise, I merely disagree with how much the disconnect between character arc and themes of the Persona's underlying lore affect my impressions. All in all? Good video. It's always nice to find more content like yours in this fandom.
You pretty much said what I was going to.
Just because it’s doesn’t hit all 10 marks and only hits 9 of the 10 doesn’t mean that it’s not a good representation if other beats fit the narrative.
If anything it makes Sumire’s story more empowering then Cinderella the one that she was inspired off of.
You know it's how people only really talk about the third semester which is great overall but at the same it doesnt really address any actual issues with how not only do you have some shoehorned in scenes of sumire in the main story campaign then literally do nothing with her for a long while till that story arc. Not to say there wasn't a build up for it but it's not really something I can say was executed or added in a way that felt all the way organic. In a weird way every praise for the third semester feels like royal was intended to be the actual sequel to the original story vs strikers or perhaps a continuation where strikers left off since some of what semester 3 does feels like ideas were taken from strikers storyline
Also don't forget that Cinderella was also turned into "someone better" to meet the prince, and was so ashamed of her true self that she ran away form it (so that nobody can see her that way) before midnight.
small nitpick, I think the thumbnail is a bit hyperbolic and have 2 examples of bigger flaws with P5, albeit one it only in the original. those being the whole arc encompassing Okumura's Palace and just about everything about base game Akechi (I'm so glad they fixed him in Royal)
Don't get me wrong you are definitely correct lol! At the end of the day I gotta play the youtube game and thumbnails like these just perform better than more understated ones. I agree that it's a bit much tho and I try not to do it too often so I hope my audience will understand its just a part of the way youtube promotes content!
@@3Waifu that's fair, I don't really fault you for it. I'd say that if I have to dig that far to find issue with a video, you've done a damn good job
Sumire was like my favorite character personality and was so hyped to do stuff with her in royal. But they do almost nothing with her… oof
Can you tell me what set up you use?
I would love to! I do all my editing/creative stuff on my PC. CPU is a Ryzen 9 5900 GPU is an Nvidia RTX 3060 and for my mic I use a hyper x quadcast. Then I use an elgato hd60s hooked up to my PS4 to record persona 5 royal stuff.
I always thought that Sumire's first persona isn't "her's" since she awakened to it while she still thinks she's Kasumi.
Part of the reason why is that because during her first awakening, she underwent a sailor moon like transformation, and when she ripped off her mask, there wasn't any blood, which was the opposite of how any other member had their awakening.
I think that Sumire's first awakening isn't a "real" awakening, and that's the reason why it looked so different to others. It looks like what she thought it would look like: Elegant and empowering.
It wasn't until she accepted herself that when she ripped off her mask in the second awakening scene, did we see her bleeding.
I think I agree with several of the comments pointing out that this’s a surface-level analysis of Cendrillion, being that, much like them, I believe she’s meant to be “Kasumi’s” Persona. Not Sumire’s.
I actually think the parallel between Cendrillion and Sumire is really interesting due to it almost being a dark deconstruction of the Cinderella story. Since much like Cinderella, Sumire had her life changed by pretending to be someone she’s not: Cinderella a princess, and Sumire her deceased sister. And both had this granted to them via the “magic” of a fairy godmother, which in this case would be Maruki.
But much like Cinderella’s magic ended once the clock struck midnight, so did Sumire’s illusion once she eventually reached the third semester and learned the truth. Hence why Cendrillion says “the bells of midnight are tolling” after being defeated from going berserk, as it’s Sumire’s fabricated reality coming to an end. And the reason she still has Cendrillion in her second awakening is that even after learning the truth, she still doesn’t have a strong enough will to fully break away from her Kasumi persona.
But just as Cinderella eventually gets a happy ending with her prince, son does Sumire by learning to accept her past through the aid of her senpai, Joker, instead of hiding behind an elaborate illusion. Hence why she eventually awakens Vanadis, who I feel is her “true” Persona all along and then later on Ella, who’s meant to be a combination of both Kasumi and Sumire’s strength and prowess.
Great video nonetheless, but I just feel like you failed to dig below the surface in order to see some pretty insightful parallels. Or at least that’s just how I feel lol.
Perhaps Maruki was intended to be Prince Charming all along, since he was forcing Sumire to change her identity into Kasumi, and Cendrillon evolving into Ella in the end is symbolic of Sumire finally coming to her true self. Just an alternate perspective on the connections between Cinderella's and Sumire's stories.
I really like the way Cinderella's story parallels Kasumi. I agree with most that Maruki is the God Mother and when Cinderella transforms it's like Sumire becoming Kasumi. I dont really see a problem with Joker being the Prince either. Sumire only met Joker because of her time as Kasumi, and same goes for the Prince and Cinderella. After the Vall where Cinderella loses her slipper, the Prince goes out to find her, no matter who she is, high class or low, and ends up accepting her knowing she's reduced to maid status at home. I wouldnt say Joker saved her as much as accepted her for who she is. I also think Cinderella was brave to even try on the glass slipper. Before ever being transformed I'm sure she never would have done something like that, but the prior acceptance gave her that confidence, like Joker to Kasumi. I also just tend to read into the Persona's stories in a way that compliments the character rather than try equating every tiny detail. The broader story beats matter more to me than precise points. Your interpretation is totally valid, I just wanted to share mine.
It could me more Rags to Riches symbolism and Cinderella/Cendrillon just happens to be the most fitting, I don't disagree that the fairy-tale Cinderella itself doesn't fit Sumire's story but when you look at it like a girl at her lowest point coming out on top of those pushing her down or holding her back it's does seem to worth a lot better
Aight this might be a hot take but Kasumi really shouldn't be in the game like think about it if she were to just disappear what would change the reason Akechi and Joker first visit Maruki's palace that's about it and that isn't a big change you could have akechi know about it before hand or have a searching thing like the stuff in P5S or P4
Late to the party but a parallel can be drawn between Ella's sisters mistreating her, and Sumire suffering from Yoshizawa's success
This is something I started to think about as well, and given how she initially awoke to Cendrillion under the allusion that she was Kasumi, I think your previous analysis on Cendrillion may fill the wholes as to why she feels inappropriate as Sumire's Persona (Until I explain my reasoning as to why I think she is.)
I've always felt Kasumi's awakening was off compared to the rest of the Phantom Thieves, and after the reveal that Kasumi was Sumire, it made much more sense why. Cendrillion isn't meant to be Sumire's will of rebellion, not as far as how i read it. She (at this moment) is more of a manifestation of the diluted Sumire's mental state, and she needed the support of not just Joker, but the rest of the Phantom Thieves to come to terms with her reality. Then after reawakwning to Cendrillion, realizing her new reality after her "prince" (The Phantom Thieves, and yes, Joker in particular) saved her, not by literally saving her from Maruki, but by giving her the push and support to face reality head-on.
In a way, I think Cendrillion fits in both ways, How before the encounter with Maruki, she feigned being a princess to escape her life in cinders, and after how she truly elevated herself to a greater status with the support of her prince.
I think your analysis here is giving more credit to Sumire's support group than what was intended with the mire direct comparison to the story of Cinderella.
You didn't saw Persona 4 Golden The Animation, now did you?
Honestly,
I disagree. But you do you.
I think sumrie's cendirion is only meant to represent her while she is pretending to be Kasumi. But I can see a wrench in that idea, because of Ella the third tier persona for sumrie. Not only it continues to inforce the idea that Cinderella's arc is comparable to sumrie's, which it isn't, but also makes it feel like sumrie hasn't grown as a character since her first awakening. This is a problem I have with all the third tier personas of the cast, with the exception of Akechi. I think this was just a case of laziness on the part to the persona team.
This video is interesting, so I'm going to throw a sub. But I do have to disagree.
Making Sumire a character who is 'just needing a knight in shining armour to save her' is rather reductive and I don't believe it's quite accurate.
Both Cinderella and Kasumi go through a lot and none of them 'simply have someone save them'. They both have to struggle and require outside assistance. I don't think it's a bad thing to need help.
This complaint HEAVILY however could be applied to Milday, Haru's persona.
I think Cendrillon is meant to be taken as cruel irony in a way. While Ella was lucky to meet a fairy godmother who granted her wish Sumire met Maruki who granted a wish made by her at the deepest moments of her grief. That wish, much like Ella’s allows her to live a life she could never have reached on her own, but it was only temporary. Much like how Ella’s dress turned back to normal rags at midnight Sumire’s cognition that she is Kasumi could never truly last, but because of that wish she made she was able to meet a person who could help her out of her situation. While Ella had the straightforward solution of marrying a prince, Sumire met someone who saw her for who she was and was able to give her the support she needed to stand up on her own
most of the comments got my message but i also think Cendrillon represents the “blind faith” she had and how she lived in a practically fairytale world so far from the true reality of her situation.
Welp I still like Kasumi lol.
While cendrillon is a good persona you're right that it doesn't quite fit sumire's character as well as the others. I still think that cendrillon could have been "Kasumi's" persona and sumire should have gotten a different persona and outfit when she had her true awakening. What are your thoughts on vanadis and ella? Keep up the great work
Now I finally understand why I never liked Cendrillon. I could never connect her themes and story with Sumire which lead me to feel no passion towards the persona. Thank you! Now I can finally explain my feelings towards Cendrillon.
cendrillon mocks sumi for "choosing to live in false glory than to be covered in ashes" in the awakening. cendrillon is her persona because kasumi is the glass slippers to sumire (cendrillon is also wearing glass herself), because "wearing" kasumi helps sumire cope with the cinders that is her sister's death. her second awakening, while in addition to being a deity of beauty, is a figure of bravery and strength, illustrating her own courage in accepting reality (and vanadis is also known to accept the dead, so). ella, her final awakening, is supposedly the character's real name, the one who's free from fragile glamor or tragic cinders, but was also written to be very kind and forgiving in perrault's version (the one that's supposedly referenced by the game). ella wished for the people who wronged her to also have a happy ending and even assisted them in doing so. this evolution, i think, goes with sumire donning kasumi to cope, sumire accepting kasumi's death and live to honor her, sumire wanting everyone, including maruki, to have a happy ending...
is what i think. in addition to being very interesting, your interpretation is also not wrong. i'm absolutely omitting the fairy godmother and the prince from my interpretation because i think the persona should be focusing on the character's strengths and virtues, but i could be wrong. there isn't a need to include the prince in my opinion. it's ella's own strength to survive under constant abuse and neglect, and her bold decisions in the ending that's truly inspiring and is a rightful influence for sumi's persona
Does anyone think it's weird that Mona calls Joker their trump card before he knows he can hold multiple personas?
3Waifu more like 3k Waifu
The only moment i enjoyed Kasumi in P5R was when she turned agains us and the dumbass tried to fight my Metatron with Null Phys with her Persona. I laughed even harder when she apologized for harming me, when i just beat her using just normal attacks
If you love this character so much, then why is your video titled, "Persona 5's biggest failure?" I almost blew up until I found out what you were actually talking about.
for hate clicks lmao a view is a view
@@3Waifu ..........That's a bit uncool, but I'm relieved you don't hate Sumi.
You are looking at it in the wrong direction. Cinderella is her starter based on her arc as her sister while ellia is based on her being herself just like the story of Cinderella the prince fell in love with the mystery wemon but still loved her as her self keep in mind her own step sisters and mother couldn't even recognize her as the mystery wemon in a way its thematically perfect but not in the obvious way.
Я, конечно понимаю, что меня никто не поймёт... Но я хочу высказаться. Цетрион это персона Сумюре в шкуре Касуми. Та чёрная часть в персоне показывает её настоящую(Сумюре- фиолетовый цветок), которая одела яркий наряд. В нем она притворяется Касуми. Люди видят более яркую и жизнерадостную Сумюре, но внутри она пуста, как её персона под нарядом. Цетрмон показывает черты как Касуми, так и Сумюре(но принадлежит она лишь к первой. Это можно понять тк при первом пробуждение на было крови). Например: притворство от второй и удачу в нахождении друга у первой.
Another way to read this is that, in-universe, Sumire's Persona was an ill-fit because she was tampered with to think she was her sister. It may not match because Kasumi was a different person that Sumire admired and was even jealous of, to an extent. Remember that this Persona develops while she thinks she is Kasumi, and that the Persona itself laments being forced to face reality, which is that things are not what they seem.
Now, this may have been handled poorly, and out of all the extra characters in the Persona 5 spinoffs, I prefer Zenkicki and Sophia from P5 Strikers, but consider the following: Persona 5 harkens back to a time where you talk to enemies - creatures with personalities and everything - instead of the way Shadows were mindless in P3 and P4 except for special ones. Persona 1 and both of 2 had this AND independent actions of Personas happening in-game.
But more importantly, they had *Persona compatibility.* It was something you had to explore to find the best matches across your characters. If you got it wrong, then you could CARRY the Persona, but it might not work right, or at all. So, while the arc for Sumire and Cendrillon might be a bad match, you COULD take it as Maruki's interference causing bad compatibility. The only real shame here is that we didn't see her awaken to a True Persona of her own and REALLY change for the better.
i think maruki is the prince here, not joker. he "saved" her from her pain, giving her a "fairy tale" of a life instead. but it's only a superficial happiness, destined to crumble eventually (sumire not being able to achieve the same results as kasumi and forsaking her true self), like cinderella can only stay at the castle until midnight. cendrillion even tells joker that she won't go back to her life in cinders during her boss fight, which is the same thing sumire says earlier, that she can't go back to be her true self and would rather live a fantasy instead.
so i think cendrillion really fits her... until the second awakening, where sumire accepts reality. cendrillion symbolized her "dream" to be kasumi, it was a negative character.
sumire should have gotten another persona with her second awakening.
cendrillion even says that she fits sumire even more after the awakening (but gives no reason to think so), like the devs have to convince you. bish wdym you fit her even more?
edit: wait!!! but even after midnight, cinderella actually stays a princess!!!
and even after awakening to the truth, sumire stays hopeful! and her persona stays the same! no, ok, it actually fits perfectly
So Sumi is my favorite part of P5 but I respect the opinion lmao
Don't get me wrong I love Sumire and her arc in Royal! I think in terms of character writing and story arc she has a really compelling tale that I feel fits in perfectly with the third semester! My criticisms are largely relegated to some of the more symbolic aspects of the character and honestly that doesn't always need to be considered. I do however think it makes for good content to talk about!
@@3Waifu Yea I wrote that comment before I watched the video haha. Sumire is my favorite character in all of media just because of how compelling her arc is but I never really looked into the symbolism in the specific personas. Definitely valid criticism after I watched that like never came to my mind LMAO I had no idea her persona was even based on Cinderella until I watched your video from the week before. This series is great though because its fun to see all the symbolic stuff going into all the designs cause that all usually just goes right over my head.
I thought Cendrillon was Kasumi’s Persona, not Sumira’s.
After all, in a way, in my opinion, Kasumi was actualized in Sumira by Dr Maruki, since Cendrillon herself says at one point “… and for the other girl in you…”.
I think the story of Cinderella is meant for Sumira and Kasumi, and I think from Sumira’s Phantom Thief attire is that she’s meant to be Kasumi’s Prince Charming.
But this is just my perspective on it
My theory is that Cendrillon is both Kasumi and Sumire's persona or she could have belonged to either of them. I say this because if something else happened and Kasumi failed to save Sumire from the car crash, then Kasumi might've ended up just like her sister.
It's even mentioned by their coach in Sumire's confidant that Kasumi felt like Sumire had things she didn't. To her, Sumire's moves were more graceful and elegant and it was something Kasumi wished she had. So if it was the reverse and Sumire was the one who died instead, Kasumi would've also wished to live her life as Sumire after feeling guilty that she couldn't protect her.
All-of-a-sudden sexism, apparently.
You're looking too far into this if that's your conclusion.
Joker was already a male character. I'm doubtful that sexism is even tangentially relative to Sumire's part in Royal.
I'm in agreement with username 'Hawkatana' when it comes to Cendrillon acting as an 'inversion' of Cinderella.
I disagree with the video. I think this reading of the character only happens if you try to take the Personas too literally. None of them fit perfectly. Ann has Carmen, but Ann doesn’t go around seducing men like a femme fatale. Why Carmen fits as Ann’s Persona is because they are both trying to be free spirited and independent.
Sumire doesn’t fit a 1-1 with Cinderella. And I don’t think it was ATLUS’ intention to say that her depression is like the 2 evil step sisters and step mother mistreating her is like having depression. The metaphor is that she feels like she is covered in ashes soot coated garbage.
What’s worse is applying the role of the prince 1-1 to Ren. You even mention that Joker is like a more hands off version of the Prince. He does help Sumire, but I don’t think the game ever says it was him that did all the work. Sumire faces herself on her own when she reawakens. Ren was just there to provide emotional support, he didn’t literally swoop in and save her from her intense self loathing and depression.
All in all I think none of the Personas are supposed to be 1-1. Akechi is the prime example of this because his mask is the most far removed from who he is. Robin Hood is a selfless hero who helps the poor and fights the corrupt rich, Akechi is the inverse as he presents the image of a selfless hero but in reality he’s solving cases he created to take credit for them.
In the same fashion, Sumire is the inverse of Cinderella. It’s a plot twist meant to throw you off. She didn’t need a fairy godmother to come in and save her, she just needed to be herself and deal with her own problems. It’s the opposite of reductive, it’s empowering. The game subverts your expectations. I think applying the Personas as literally as possible doesn’t make sense because not only are they masks, but these (Sumire) characters aren’t adaptations of those (Cendrillion) characters. Sumire wanted to be like Cinderella (Kasumi) but needed to be more like herself which is why her 3rd tier Persona is called Ella because that’s Cinderella’s real name.
You seem extremely knowledgeable on the game and the lore behind it but don’t try to run with things too literally or it will become less enjoyable.