Very important message. No - a dead CRITICAL message. It's all about the setup and the geometry. Funny - I've got a cheap ass import chuck that I'm checking and fixing right now. 20 thou runout on the POS. I might just bin it like it deserves. The actual machining goes fast when the set up is right and the tooling is true. Knowing these critical aspects is what sets professional machinists apart from most amateurs and hobbyists. I'd say this video is one of the most important machining videos posted on youtube for a long time - it's an absolute FUNDAMENTAL that every machinist needs to see. The amateurs need to put away their sprung loaded parting tools and auto retract threaders and watch this. But WTF do I know anyway? Cheers.
I went to a training school there once. I loved the town, all of the food I ordered for a week, came with gravy. I’m from the north, this doesn’t happen. Loved it.
Man, I don't usually get here this early! I appreciate that you show this part, that you show indicating a part, or at least mention that you already have. I can think of a couple other folks around these parts that do that, but there are some many machining videos on youtube of nothing more than chips flying that I bought my first lathe before I had any indicators or micrometers.
I also follow woodworking channels here and on Facebook and get the giggles every time someone there is obsessing about 1-3 thou deviations. A lot of folks don't understand that there are different definitions of good and "good enough" for metal working machines and woodworking. And also different orders of precision for different applications. I like the way you explained it here.
Imortant info Josh. Thanks. I just got a new Jacobs 18N chuck for my boring mill at work. Surprised to find out that Jacobs has a line of tooling made in China. Not very surprised because i know Starrett has tools manufactured there as well. Among others. Anyway, i did the same indicating as you and and found it to be within .0007". At the chuck with a hardened half inch dowel pin. Good enough for me. It all depends on how much you want to spend. And if you are the only person using that tool. I've had Jacobs chucks for close to 30 years. Nobody else uses them and they are still in great shape. Cheers from Canada.
Josh, we'd love to see you try to straighten out that shaft, it would also be cool to see you cut and grind it into a smaller MT adapter if it isn't salvageable
Time and money. Is it worth it to fix or replace. As a working shop, replacing and moving on is best. But it would make a good project. And, I like overly dumb projects. Lol
Really good video Josh. Looking forward to the machining of your traction engine. To UK eyes the block is quite different to our blocks that sit on top of the barrel. However it sure makes setting up easier for boring with a flat bottom / side. you have no steam jacket to worry about exposing as well.
Good information Josh. I need to check some of my chucks. I have one thats never been right and it's a Jacobs! And I bought it new with a machine. Thanks for sharing. 👍🇺🇸👍
Straighten it and then final turn or grind to true zero run out . That would be the best chuck set up for the machine as it will be the shortest and one piece, less run out that many peaces together and longer as length multiplies the run out if any . Some time's turning the taper 180 degree's in the arbor may improve the run out and also turning the adaptor in the chuck some has helped me with getting the run out to be less . I have even tried boring the chuck jaws on a bad import chuck with only a little improvement . When drills slip in the jaws a few times then that is the start of the problem with the jaw run out. I put flats on most of my drill bits I used the most to stop the the slip but that will cause run out also if done by hand and guess , ( machine cutting with a degree wheel is the best way to make the flats) , but that keeps the rest of the shank from getting torn up and then the drill will still chuck true on the round part , just have to align with the jaws correctly . Ps , if you put your mag base of your indicator on the spindle end or side and then there is no run out issue at all as with a chuck and a co-axle-ual indicator. Getting that cylinder mounted true in both directions is important or the piston rod will not move straight with the cross head slide frame and could cause wear or binding. Have fun with this job now that things have slowed down so you can do some of your own things and good luck. Hopefully with a new President things will get better next year for your business. Keep the chips flying !
I just picked up a 18N at an estate sale for $25 that has the same issue as yours, .0005 at the chuck body, .010 runout at the jaws. Rebuild kits for these chucks are very expensive. Would love to see a video on you checking that chuck out for repair
I'd spend the money on the kit, only after disassembled, cleaned, and inspected to see if that is indeed your problem. A lot of times it's just s tiny chip causing the runout
I try to not cheap out on tools but I do have two Shars 1/8-5/8 keyless ball bearing chucks that are as good as any Jacobs I've ever owned. Each one will hold three tenths or better. My one Jacobs 1/2 in. keyless holds two tenths but cost 6 times more.
I know what I'm doing today! Enough assuming! Thanks, josh, i have a job coming up that needs very accurate holes, drilled at 36.7 degrees, and to the thou.
Greg from northern Michigan. With your SPC background in metal working, I am sure you know about Circular Runout and Axial Position (CRAP) and Transfer Path Measurement Standards (TP). In terms of CRAP, there's Good (< 0.002 inches TIR), and OK (< 0.005 inches TIR). Anything higher should only be used for very rough machine work, or be given away to someone just starting out in this business or hobby. A bent or wornout tool holder is usually better than nothing.
I know the differences, just had a little on my mind that day explaining and missed a few critical points. But the main point was to check your tooling.
CRAP and TP usually go together. That's why precision tooling is so expensive and can not be abused without continual maintenance and careful monitoring.
On the #6 morse arbor I wonder if you bored a piece of stock to match the jacobs tapor and then put it over the jocobs taper and put it in a press and push in the middle to straighten it.
I have never seen a need for one. Precision tools get their own tool holders. Boring heads do the rest. Drilling isn't needed to be super precision, and if it is, you use a collet chuck.
That last adapter, the one with the huge amount of runout, could you just make another one just like it? It doesn't look overly complicated (says the guy who is not a machinist! 😂🤣).
Sometimes the taper in boring mills are not perfect either. We have 4 G&L boring mills and some of them the taper is better than others. We have a bullard also and the spindle taper on it runs out bad.
Thanks Josh, learnt something today. I've had a few arbor/chck assemblies where the chuck hasn't been seated properly on the arbor, off on an angle, wondering it that could be a problem on the bad one?
Maybe you did this and didn't film it: I would have liked to see the runout on the inside of the quill taper, since that's the reference for all your other measurements.
I didn't actually film that, but it was true to the outside of the quill. That's the best part of a boring mill is the quill and spindle taper have to match to do what they do.
Very important message. No - a dead CRITICAL message. It's all about the setup and the geometry. Funny - I've got a cheap ass import chuck that I'm checking and fixing right now. 20 thou runout on the POS. I might just bin it like it deserves. The actual machining goes fast when the set up is right and the tooling is true. Knowing these critical aspects is what sets professional machinists apart from most amateurs and hobbyists. I'd say this video is one of the most important machining videos posted on youtube for a long time - it's an absolute FUNDAMENTAL that every machinist needs to see. The amateurs need to put away their sprung loaded parting tools and auto retract threaders and watch this. But WTF do I know anyway? Cheers.
Glad it was received well.
Well said Stuart
Was by me for sure, even in my crabby morning mood. Heh.
Greetings from the oldest town in Texas, Nacogdoches. Another good educational video.
I went to a training school there once. I loved the town, all of the food I ordered for a week, came with gravy. I’m from the north, this doesn’t happen. Loved it.
@@Wmbhill I ordered a glass of gravy with a straw.
Hello neighbor...Close to Athens here.
Man, I don't usually get here this early!
I appreciate that you show this part, that you show indicating a part, or at least mention that you already have. I can think of a couple other folks around these parts that do that, but there are some many machining videos on youtube of nothing more than chips flying that I bought my first lathe before I had any indicators or micrometers.
I also follow woodworking channels here and on Facebook and get the giggles every time someone there is obsessing about 1-3 thou deviations. A lot of folks don't understand that there are different definitions of good and "good enough" for metal working machines and woodworking. And also different orders of precision for different applications. I like the way you explained it here.
Not everything needs to be to 0.00005 tolerance. 95% of the time +/- 0.005 is good enough.
Imortant info Josh. Thanks.
I just got a new Jacobs 18N chuck for my boring mill at work. Surprised to find out that Jacobs has a line of tooling made in China. Not very surprised because i know Starrett has tools manufactured there as well. Among others. Anyway, i did the same indicating as you and and found it to be within .0007". At the chuck with a hardened half inch dowel pin. Good enough for me. It all depends on how much you want to spend. And if you are the only person using that tool. I've had Jacobs chucks for close to 30 years. Nobody else uses them and they are still in great shape.
Cheers from Canada.
Josh, we'd love to see you try to straighten out that shaft, it would also be cool to see you cut and grind it into a smaller MT adapter if it isn't salvageable
Time and money. Is it worth it to fix or replace. As a working shop, replacing and moving on is best. But it would make a good project. And, I like overly dumb projects. Lol
very good run-out is important in a lot of setups.
Really good video Josh. Looking forward to the machining of your traction engine. To UK eyes the block is quite different to our blocks that sit on top of the barrel. However it sure makes setting up easier for boring with a flat bottom / side. you have no steam jacket to worry about exposing as well.
Our engines are so different. Most of yours are 2 cylinder also, and do 40mph. Ours max out at about 3mph. Lol
@ just stood in front of my traction engine block block now. 1894 McLaren single 2 speed but only 5 / 6 mph. wish UA-cam did photos !
Good information Josh.
I need to check some of my chucks.
I have one thats never been right and it's a Jacobs!
And I bought it new with a machine.
Thanks for sharing. 👍🇺🇸👍
New in the last 20 years or before that? Most all of them now are chinesium
Great Visio 👍🏽 another tool in the tool shed. 😊
Straighten it and then final turn or grind to true zero run out .
That would be the best chuck set up for the machine as it will be the shortest and one piece, less run out that many peaces together and longer as length multiplies the run out if any .
Some time's turning the taper 180 degree's in the arbor may improve the run out and also turning the adaptor in the chuck some has helped me with getting the run out to be less .
I have even tried boring the chuck jaws on a bad import chuck with only a little improvement .
When drills slip in the jaws a few times then that is the start of the problem with the jaw run out.
I put flats on most of my drill bits I used the most to stop the the slip but that will cause run out also if done by hand and guess , ( machine cutting with a degree wheel is the best way to make the flats) , but that keeps the rest of the shank from getting torn up and then the drill will still chuck true on the round part , just have to align with the jaws correctly .
Ps , if you put your mag base of your indicator on the spindle end or side and then there is no run out issue at all as with a chuck and a co-axle-ual indicator.
Getting that cylinder mounted true in both directions is important or the piston rod will not move straight with the cross head slide frame and could cause wear or binding.
Have fun with this job now that things have slowed down so you can do some of your own things and good luck.
Hopefully with a new President things will get better next year for your business.
Keep the chips flying !
Thanks for the tutorial
Extremely informative and helpful. You definitely know your stuff.
Great video Josh! Precision starts with any setup and tools used! Be well!
Ohh, that's a rabbit hole I need to explore!
Yes, indeed.
I just picked up a 18N at an estate sale for $25 that has the same issue as yours, .0005 at the chuck body, .010 runout at the jaws. Rebuild kits for these chucks are very expensive. Would love to see a video on you checking that chuck out for repair
I'd spend the money on the kit, only after disassembled, cleaned, and inspected to see if that is indeed your problem. A lot of times it's just s tiny chip causing the runout
Thanks, enjoyed, and informative.
I try to not cheap out on tools but I do have two Shars 1/8-5/8 keyless ball bearing chucks that are as good as any Jacobs I've ever owned. Each one will hold three tenths or better.
My one Jacobs 1/2 in. keyless holds two tenths but cost 6 times more.
Nice video as always..
i always wanted a broing mill for my workshop. But since I can't have one. I just watch your Videos..
They are nice, but the jobs get heavy.
Thanks this info Jake! Your videos are awesome.
I never knew!!! Thanks for the video.
I know what I'm doing today! Enough assuming! Thanks, josh, i have a job coming up that needs very accurate holes, drilled at 36.7 degrees, and to the thou.
Fun, better check that runout.
Good reminder! T/Y
Good information. How true to "Check it before you start to Get It Right".
Greg from northern Michigan. With your SPC background in metal working, I am sure you know about Circular Runout and Axial Position (CRAP) and Transfer Path Measurement Standards (TP). In terms of CRAP, there's Good (< 0.002 inches TIR), and OK (< 0.005 inches TIR). Anything higher should only be used for very rough machine work, or be given away to someone just starting out in this business or hobby. A bent or wornout tool holder is usually better than nothing.
I know the differences, just had a little on my mind that day explaining and missed a few critical points. But the main point was to check your tooling.
CRAP and TP usually go together. That's why precision tooling is so expensive and can not be abused without continual maintenance and careful monitoring.
On the #6 morse arbor I wonder if you bored a piece of stock to match the jacobs tapor and then put it over the jocobs taper and put it in a press and push in the middle to straighten it.
Doesn't matter how the spindle runs.
The indicator will run in a circle in line with the bearings not allowing for spindle droop
You are correct, but checking and removing runout is best practive all around.
Hi Josh,
Maybe time to machine your own morse 6 arbor for the length you need. That way you will know for sure it will be running true.
I may eventually do just that.
Man that must’ve been one heckuva crash that bent that MT 6 adapter 🥵
I wonder what actually happened. Guessing someone rapid it into the table pr part. That's just a guess.
It would be nice to have a small independent 4 jaw chuck on that spindle, you could dial it in when you need to.
I have never seen a need for one. Precision tools get their own tool holders. Boring heads do the rest. Drilling isn't needed to be super precision, and if it is, you use a collet chuck.
That last adapter, the one with the huge amount of runout, could you just make another one just like it? It doesn't look overly complicated (says the guy who is not a machinist! 😂🤣).
I could, I may someday.
Sometimes the taper in boring mills are not perfect either. We have 4 G&L boring mills and some of them the taper is better than others. We have a bullard also and the spindle taper on it runs out bad.
This Lucas is actually good
Thanks Josh, learnt something today. I've had a few arbor/chck assemblies where the chuck hasn't been seated properly on the arbor, off on an angle, wondering it that could be a problem on the bad one?
Not likely, but I could check it when separated.
Wait...what? Where is your famous Hollywood TV star to open this weeks video?
Lol, I heard about that. I don't think I would ever do such a publicity stunt.
Have you tried spray metal? Build the bent tip up and machine it back to square ❤
I don't have enough work coming in to justify the spray metal system. I could TIG it.
Would it be worthwhile to remove the Jacobs taper stub completely, bore a hole in the Morse taper part and shrink fit a newly made Jacobs taper shaft?
Possibly.
Dont scrap the chucks. It's cheaper to rebuild them than to buy new . If they are jacob chucks
Chinesium gets scrapped, Jacob's get rebuilt.
Maybe you did this and didn't film it: I would have liked to see the runout on the inside of the quill taper, since that's the reference for all your other measurements.
I didn't actually film that, but it was true to the outside of the quill. That's the best part of a boring mill is the quill and spindle taper have to match to do what they do.
Can these adapters be turned true?
Some, yes. In the case of the big one, it would need to go a size smaller.
@@TopperMachineLLC Thanks, Josh.
Oh yeah, another BORING video
You don’t have to watch it there’s nothing forcing you here
Precision boring even worse, torture😂😂
Bring it on!!😊
I have Jacobs 14N and Yukiwa Dream Chuck and they both got 0.004" runout right out of the box. But I have no problem reaming H7 hole with them.