I won´t ever advocate for adultery, but I am really moved by Wolf, who was willing to give his life to protect Johanna´s intergrity and die under the charges of rape.
The problem here is that only women's noses were torn off or only women were mutilated for adultery (noses, ears depending on the country..) A law that is not equal to all of people is not a law!!
I would think Mary would be the one in the high seat and not Maximilian, since she is the Duchess Regnant of Burgundy. I do like, however, that Maximilian seemed astonished and sickened that the punishment for adultery was a woman getting her nose cut off. And has time passed by a few months? because Mary’s pregnancy is already showing
Yeah her pregnancy advances quite rapidly here. Honestly I was very surprised how degraded Mary was here. She must have had the higher ground, or at least equal to Max. I don't know why they wrote the show like this, Mary being such independent "feminist" at the beginning and then being so subordinate towards the end. As far as I know, she was rather in between, they were kinda equals with Max in Burgundy. But I am not an expert on her biography, so I am not sure.
Well in that time it would've been scandalous for a woman to appear as superior or even equal to her husband. While officially they were equals - she the Duchess in her own right and he the Duke by right of marriage - Mary still had to act as if Maximilian was her superior and the sole regent for appearances sake. Also France and the Holy Roman Empire (to which most of Burgundy belonged) were vastly different than e.g. England when it camento women on the throne. Most states there forbid female succession alltogether. Noone thought a woman was fit to rule. That's why Mary was so pressured to marry soon when her father died. Because everyone wanted a man as true ruler.
@Roheryn100 True but there are two main differences to consider here. First of all, Spain was culturally different from the Holy Roman Empire in that a female ruler was not unthinkable there like it was in the HRE. The HRE was always very rigid about male only succession. Even centuries later, the monarchies that emerged from the HRE practised strict male primogeniture, usually barring women from succession. A famous example is the end of the personal union between the UK and the Kingdom of Hannover after the death of William IV. of Great Britain, Ireland and Hannover. Queen Victoria inherited the British throne from him but wasn't allowed to also become Queen of Hannover because Hannover barred women from succession and therefore it went to her uncle Ernest Augustus, therefore seperatimg Hannover and the UK after them having had a common ruler for 123 years. Second of all, the power dynamic between Ferdinand and Isabella was very different from the one between Maximilian and Mary. The catholic monatchs were unique in all of European history. Ferdinand of Aragon was not as dependent on Isabella of Castille as Maximilian if Austria was on Mary of Burgundy. Both Ferdinand and Isabella were monarchs of their own respective kingdoms, and none of them regent in the others kindgom. Isabella outranked Ferdinand in Castille, but Ferdinand outranked Isabella in Aragon, but as they ruled both kingdoms together, they had an equal standing without Ferdinand's honour being in question the same way as Maximilian's. Maximilian was nothing without Mary's money and everyone knew that, but Mary was also dependent on having Maximilian there to defend her and control the states general, which he could only do if he was respected and not seen as just a trophy-husband. It was very important to have people see him as the legitimate and respectable duke rather than just the husband of the duchess. This was only possible if Mary played his submissive wife. And the strategy worked. Mary had earlier been a hostage ofnher own people, but Maximilian managed to turn things around and actual reestablish the ducal rule and authority which had been lost after the death of Mary's father.
@@shimanopetermann9068 Thank you for your considered reply. I stumbled across the series only this morning and have watched as much as possible. I am rather embarrassed about my lack of knowledge of this phase of European history, although I am quite familiar with English history of the same era. In particular, I found myself in great sympathy with Margaret of York - living in a foreign land, childless, and losing both her husband Charles and her brother Richard in battle.
Poor Johanna! It seems her character is fictional but in a way she represents all the women who were tried and imprisoned for adultery in western history.At least her lover tries to save her from a gruesome fate.
Yeah, poor her; she made a choice to engage in adultery in an age where it could mean her disfigurement or death, and she did it anyway. Best part with you is that the man, who wasn't under the bounds of marriage, literally committed suicide in order to keep her pretty; but it's the woman who's the poor person. This is the blatant double standard that we have today: a woman being at risk of being made ugly is more important than a man losing his life.
I wish you could live in a non western culture and see how "good" women are treated in the law and everyday life. Alas, that would be racist! Only white heterosexual men can be at fault! Strange that, in predominantly white, Christian cultures women have any voice.....
@@LabTech41 true i think audoltery is way under punished. But both partys should be, theres no punishment for the man so is now damand to correct his actuon and money isnt enough
@@LabTech41 Nope - it is you missing the point - on purpose as it seems. As it stands in the movie - according to law in case of adultery the women is punished and her lover walks free. In this particular situation the man chose to sacrifice himself for her but he had an choice to stand back - she didn't have any choice at all. In medieval Europe reality was that a wife who commited adultery was punished with her lover while a husband who commited adultery walked free. As for adulterers the punishment for men and women was not the same - women were always punished the degree of punishment depended on their status - from sending to monastery to whipping or head shaving, in rare cases mutilation and very rarely (and rather in early Middle Ages) - death. Men adulterers suffered if they were of lesser status than husbands they 'stole' their wives from. There is one thing I find interesting in people who express their dislike / hatred of women on fora - do you feel the same about your mother too ?
I am not supriced Maxmillian was sitting higher as during this time men had presidense even if they were married to a female regant and pepol also forget he was the son of an emparor and future emparor himself
Yeah but I think it was not the case for Mary and Max, they were rather equals. And people rather liked to follow Mary's orders than Max's who was a foreigner to them and never much liked. They even riotted against his rule right after Mary's death.
Lili1127 yeah I think thoe the series creaters wanted to show how things were regarding this at the time,and yes Mary and Maxmillian saw eachother as equal yes but there was also the etikette of that time,regarding the rioting yes they did but severol insidents like that showed Maxmillians diplomatic,politicol as well as restrained and able to lisen to reson carecter(Mary learned him a lot about that) He could have easely handeld thing after Marys death quite harder,also he was savy financial wise to
@@Wenchework Yeah but this scene is not just about etiquette, higher ground or not. It's about justice administration, one of the most important rights of a ruler. The fact that Max immediately does that alone in Burgundy, with Mary just sitting there as a mere consort, is very absurd and inaccurate. It does unjustice to Mary's character (both her character in the series and herhistorical character). If they wanted to show us how things were, they should have just shown us how things were: Mary having struggles as a woman ruling alone, but ruling as equals with Max eventually.
Lili1127 That is only thing I reacted to in seen as Maxmillian did not interfear much in those things when she was alive and he would never done that in RL but from the creaters view it must been their way of showing that type of thing even if it was wrong as the RL would been boring for tv lol Basicly Maxmillian was there as husband to her and milletery sopport
I never understood these laws really, so barbaric. Never ever did Jesus advocate for such horrible things. If someone is an adulterer then God will punish them if he thinks he should, there is no need for earthly punishment for such a small crime. Isnt thats what free will is about?
Lili, for the subtitles, though "peinlich" means shameful, "peinliche Gerichtsbarkeit" aka Blutgerichtsbarkeit translates as "high justice" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High,_middle_and_low_justice).
I think both she and Polheim are fictional characters. I also find it weird that Maximilian, the foreigner, administers justice like this in Burgundy, while the Duchess regnant just sits there as a consort and remains passive. (Especially that Mary said before that he is only duke de juxoris, behind her.) I thought that in real life they were equal rulers in Burgundy.
They were fictional as a couple but Wolf von Pohlheim really existed. He was married to Johanna von Borsselen whose paternal grandmother was called Johanna von Halewyn.
@Anne B Thank you that's actually very interesting. So at least they took real insipration. So Polheim really served Max and he really married a Burgundian lady? Or that Johanna was Austrian?
Yes it is true. Johanna von Borsselen was a burgundian lady. Johanna and Wolf had four children together (two sons and two daughters). Johanna died quite young in her mid thirties and Wolf never remarried. Johanna's father Wolfhart von Borsselen was a burgundian noblesman who married first a daughter of the king of Scotland and second Charlotte de Bourbon (Johanna's mother). Wolfhart's mother was Johanna von Halewyn who already died 1467. Unfortunately there are not many sources with further information about the two Johannas (grandmother and -daughter). But the family was quite prominent and well connected with the burgundian court.
I won´t ever advocate for adultery, but I am really moved by Wolf, who was willing to give his life to protect Johanna´s intergrity and die under the charges of rape.
The problem here is that only women's noses were torn off or only women were mutilated for adultery (noses, ears depending on the country..)
A law that is not equal to all of people is not a law!!
@@eb6719 I agree that the law was unfair. But that doesn´t change de fact tha adultery is wrong, even if ther no law that punishes it.
What a heartbreaking scene, both Maximilian and Mary in tricky ground :( Also poor Wolf and Johanna!
I would think Mary would be the one in the high seat and not Maximilian, since she is the Duchess Regnant of Burgundy.
I do like, however, that Maximilian seemed astonished and sickened that the punishment for adultery was a woman getting her nose cut off.
And has time passed by a few months? because Mary’s pregnancy is already showing
Yeah her pregnancy advances quite rapidly here.
Honestly I was very surprised how degraded Mary was here. She must have had the higher ground, or at least equal to Max. I don't know why they wrote the show like this, Mary being such independent "feminist" at the beginning and then being so subordinate towards the end. As far as I know, she was rather in between, they were kinda equals with Max in Burgundy. But I am not an expert on her biography, so I am not sure.
Well in that time it would've been scandalous for a woman to appear as superior or even equal to her husband. While officially they were equals - she the Duchess in her own right and he the Duke by right of marriage - Mary still had to act as if Maximilian was her superior and the sole regent for appearances sake. Also France and the Holy Roman Empire (to which most of Burgundy belonged) were vastly different than e.g. England when it camento women on the throne. Most states there forbid female succession alltogether. Noone thought a woman was fit to rule. That's why Mary was so pressured to marry soon when her father died. Because everyone wanted a man as true ruler.
@@shimanopetermann9068It happened in Spain. Isabella was co-equal with Ferdinand.
@Roheryn100 True but there are two main differences to consider here.
First of all, Spain was culturally different from the Holy Roman Empire in that a female ruler was not unthinkable there like it was in the HRE. The HRE was always very rigid about male only succession. Even centuries later, the monarchies that emerged from the HRE practised strict male primogeniture, usually barring women from succession. A famous example is the end of the personal union between the UK and the Kingdom of Hannover after the death of William IV. of Great Britain, Ireland and Hannover. Queen Victoria inherited the British throne from him but wasn't allowed to also become Queen of Hannover because Hannover barred women from succession and therefore it went to her uncle Ernest Augustus, therefore seperatimg Hannover and the UK after them having had a common ruler for 123 years.
Second of all, the power dynamic between Ferdinand and Isabella was very different from the one between Maximilian and Mary. The catholic monatchs were unique in all of European history. Ferdinand of Aragon was not as dependent on Isabella of Castille as Maximilian if Austria was on Mary of Burgundy. Both Ferdinand and Isabella were monarchs of their own respective kingdoms, and none of them regent in the others kindgom. Isabella outranked Ferdinand in Castille, but Ferdinand outranked Isabella in Aragon, but as they ruled both kingdoms together, they had an equal standing without Ferdinand's honour being in question the same way as Maximilian's. Maximilian was nothing without Mary's money and everyone knew that, but Mary was also dependent on having Maximilian there to defend her and control the states general, which he could only do if he was respected and not seen as just a trophy-husband. It was very important to have people see him as the legitimate and respectable duke rather than just the husband of the duchess. This was only possible if Mary played his submissive wife. And the strategy worked. Mary had earlier been a hostage ofnher own people, but Maximilian managed to turn things around and actual reestablish the ducal rule and authority which had been lost after the death of Mary's father.
@@shimanopetermann9068 Thank you for your considered reply. I stumbled across the series only this morning and have watched as much as possible. I am rather embarrassed about my lack of knowledge of this phase of European history, although I am quite familiar with English history of the same era.
In particular, I found myself in great sympathy with Margaret of York - living in a foreign land, childless, and losing both her husband Charles and her brother Richard in battle.
1:34 dude I will argue about not cutting a woman’s nose all day.
😢😢😢 but a man adulter nothing happened, some
Serial name pls
Maximilian
What a mess.
Poor Johanna! It seems her character is fictional but in a way she represents all the women who were tried and imprisoned for adultery in western history.At least her lover tries to save her from a gruesome fate.
not just western history.
Yeah, poor her; she made a choice to engage in adultery in an age where it could mean her disfigurement or death, and she did it anyway.
Best part with you is that the man, who wasn't under the bounds of marriage, literally committed suicide in order to keep her pretty; but it's the woman who's the poor person.
This is the blatant double standard that we have today: a woman being at risk of being made ugly is more important than a man losing his life.
I wish you could live in a non western culture and see how "good" women are treated in the law and everyday life. Alas, that would be racist! Only white heterosexual men can be at fault! Strange that, in predominantly white, Christian cultures women have any voice.....
@@LabTech41 true i think audoltery is way under punished. But both partys should be, theres no punishment for the man so is now damand to correct his actuon and money isnt enough
@@LabTech41 Nope - it is you missing the point - on purpose as it seems.
As it stands in the movie - according to law in case of adultery the women is punished and her lover walks free.
In this particular situation the man chose to sacrifice himself for her but he had an choice to stand back - she didn't have any choice at all.
In medieval Europe reality was that a wife who commited adultery was punished with her lover while a husband who commited adultery walked free. As for adulterers the punishment for men and women was not the same - women were always punished the degree of punishment depended on their status - from sending to monastery to whipping or head shaving, in rare cases mutilation and very rarely (and rather in early Middle Ages) - death. Men adulterers suffered if they were of lesser status than husbands they 'stole' their wives from.
There is one thing I find interesting in people who express their dislike / hatred of women on fora - do you feel the same about your mother too ?
I am not supriced Maxmillian was sitting higher as during this time men had presidense even if they were married to a female regant and pepol also forget he was the son of an emparor and future emparor himself
Yeah but I think it was not the case for Mary and Max, they were rather equals. And people rather liked to follow Mary's orders than Max's who was a foreigner to them and never much liked. They even riotted against his rule right after Mary's death.
Lili1127 yeah I think thoe the series creaters wanted to show how things were regarding this at the time,and yes Mary and Maxmillian saw eachother as equal yes but there was also the etikette of that time,regarding the rioting yes they did but severol insidents like that showed Maxmillians diplomatic,politicol as well as restrained and able to lisen to reson carecter(Mary learned him a lot about that)
He could have easely handeld thing after Marys death quite harder,also he was savy financial wise to
@@Wenchework Yeah but this scene is not just about etiquette, higher ground or not. It's about justice administration, one of the most important rights of a ruler. The fact that Max immediately does that alone in Burgundy, with Mary just sitting there as a mere consort, is very absurd and inaccurate. It does unjustice to Mary's character (both her character in the series and herhistorical character).
If they wanted to show us how things were, they should have just shown us how things were: Mary having struggles as a woman ruling alone, but ruling as equals with Max eventually.
Lili1127 That is only thing I reacted to in seen as Maxmillian did not interfear much in those things when she was alive and he would never done that in RL but from the creaters view it must been their way of showing that type of thing even if it was wrong as the RL would been boring for tv lol
Basicly Maxmillian was there as husband to her and milletery sopport
The great trial awaits
I never understood these laws really, so barbaric. Never ever did Jesus advocate for such horrible things. If someone is an adulterer then God will punish them if he thinks he should, there is no need for earthly punishment for such a small crime. Isnt thats what free will is about?
Lili, for the subtitles, though "peinlich" means shameful, "peinliche Gerichtsbarkeit" aka Blutgerichtsbarkeit translates as "high justice" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High,_middle_and_low_justice).
In this context "peinlich" means painful. Schmerz. Torture. This is the original meaning of the word which it has kept in English but lost in German.
Yes
Is this plot with Johanna's trial real or ficticious?
I think both she and Polheim are fictional characters. I also find it weird that Maximilian, the foreigner, administers justice like this in Burgundy, while the Duchess regnant just sits there as a consort and remains passive. (Especially that Mary said before that he is only duke de juxoris, behind her.) I thought that in real life they were equal rulers in Burgundy.
They were fictional as a couple but Wolf von Pohlheim really existed. He was married to Johanna von Borsselen whose paternal grandmother was called Johanna von Halewyn.
@Anne B Thank you that's actually very interesting. So at least they took real insipration. So Polheim really served Max and he really married a Burgundian lady? Or that Johanna was Austrian?
Yes it is true. Johanna von Borsselen was a burgundian lady. Johanna and Wolf had four children together (two sons and two daughters). Johanna died quite young in her mid thirties and Wolf never remarried.
Johanna's father Wolfhart von Borsselen was a burgundian noblesman who married first a daughter of the king of Scotland and second Charlotte de Bourbon (Johanna's mother). Wolfhart's mother was Johanna von Halewyn who already died 1467. Unfortunately there are not many sources with further information about the two Johannas (grandmother and -daughter). But the family was quite prominent and well connected with the burgundian court.
@@anneb4160 de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_von_Polheim
😮😮🎉
Harlot!