I like the video but you have to c onsider Kirk is older and probably tired. His son was killed by a Klingon and his hatred in my opinion is justified. (I'm a minority btw)
very insightful. i had never noticed that. most who review this movie state the fact that the one to go through a arc was kirk, they never see that the star fleet/federation went through the same arc. the seeds that were planted in star trek six came to fruition in tng.
@@mistermr.6938 yes you're right. It is a "species" bigotry. You could say xenophobic but he wasn't really. He only had a problem with one alien species.
I always thought the let them die scene was really impactful and for once Shatner showed great restraint and played it perfectly. If you watch the movies back to back it doesn't seem racist or anything of the kind it fits the character perfectly. You have to also take into account how much violence, bloodshed and battles he's had and seen with the klingons in his life and career. It's like if you lived in England when the vikings were repeatedly slaughtering, raping, robbing and torturing your fellow countrymen in unprovoked attacks and you had the chance to pass on the bubonic plague to them knowing it wouldn't only kill your enemies but it would probably kill everyone in their country but you'd still do it for the greater good and for the ultimate revenge
peace with cardassia was never worth the cost, not worth alienating federation citizens, and certainly not worth risking one of our fiercest allies for
and i kind it a little suspect the klingon peace comes after the collapse of their moon. then one hundred years later the romulan star explodes. uhn uh, i call shenanigans on that. how did no one see this coming? michael burnham's fam knew a star was going nova in precisely 3 days. how the romulan star going nova sneak up on anyone? then did i hear the klingon star is going to go nova too? and didn't starfleet just, sometime in the past couple decades get the trilithium weapon from søren whatshisface?
I really detest the whole Romulus destruction thing. Because it wasn't even their sun that went supernova, it was Hobus which was a sector or two away. Some nonsense about the shockwave translating through subspace and then hitting Romulus is classic handwavey JJ Abrams BS. And now thanks to STD we have "fan" theories about Section 31 being retconned into causing the Praxis explosion to help bring the Klingons to heel or some nonsense, which sounds like the sort of trash Klutzman would peddle assuming he gets that show greenlit. That guy must have some serious dirt on people at CBS and throughout the industry, because he keeps putting out these straight up lemons that are obviously being propped up by the rest of the Paramount catalog, not vice-versa.
@@The_Lucent_Archangel Ok this is a fanfic idea Praxis blew up because the Klingons was being hunted by an alien that can cloak ans bleed glow in the dark green. So when the warriors finally cornered the creature. It release a self destruct device that destroyed the moon.
Yeah the klingons were overused in the movies I don't understand why. Even in the first next generation movie it was the Klingons again. Maybe they just thought the average person with just a passing knowledge of the show knows klingons.
And originally in ST 2 and ST 3, there were supposed to be Romulans. They ended up making the Klingons have a new honor code that was written for the Romulans previously. For me it's confusing/annoying
@@pqsk wow really smh I wish he had seen more of romulans and cardassians I mean anybody else its like the borg thing like there are worse things than the Borg
Yeah, he seems to be using xenophobia and racism interchangeably. This has been the zeitgeist for the past several years, where all you need the right soundbite and boom, the whole movie is now an allegory for racism.
@@freelancenerd4804 It's interesting that you would ascribe one political value to one species in the Star War cannon. Also Star Fleet is absolutely not a Democracy so I'm not sure what your point here is.
It's great to go between TOS "The Balance of Terror" and ST6 for Kirks character. Because Kirk was virtuous. Held no real bigotry and wouldn't dare allow it anywhere near his command, only for a tragedy to warp his view... on Kligons, which culminated in ST6. Mayer just knew Trek. If only it where someone like him who was running the franchise.
Kirk's initial feelings about the Klingons was important. At this point, Klingons were responsible for the deaths of thousands. Including Kirk's son. A major arc of the film was Kirk learning to change his views on Klingons. I always thought Spock's eyebrow raise when Kirk said "Let them die" said it all. That was as close to an expression of surprise that we'll ever get from Spock.
"It never even occured to me to take Gorkon at his word. Spock was right." Finally, Kirk realizes what Gorkon was trying to say. It was a beautiful arc to watch Kirk make in the film from "Let them die" to "And you've restored my son's." However it wouldn't have mattered if Undiscovered Country wasn't as great a movie as it was.
@@Chris-rp9df he died saving countless lives also before that Kirk saved so many by assuming Command to save Guinan and her people. Also he went to literally heaven for many years and an echoe Kirk lives on in the Nexus. 🤷♂️
@@Chris-rp9df Indeed. But it was the perfect way for Kirk to die. After all his adventures it finally turned out that to be a real hero it meant giving up heaven to die on a dusty rock with a stuffy bald guy and a desperate man trying to get to where Kirk just walked away from to stop him. It may have been a bit dull on screen but I think that was the idea. Kirk died a good an honorable death to save the lives of countless people who will likely never know the sacrifice he made.
I'm so glad that the Federation and the Klingon Empire we're allies otherwise the Dominion War I believe would have been boring. The Klingons, that Warrior Spirit, really made the Dominion War more exciting with them in it.
@moonknight1985 One of my pet peeves is that in the movie, and mentioned in the original Trek, the Klingons were a piss poor nation. When Praxis blew, their main energy source for the empire, the Klingons were on the verge of collapse. How in the world were they strong enough to fight the Federation, or anybody else, even after 50 to 60 years after the movie?
@@alexharper403 A lot can happen to a nation in 60 years. The US in 1880 was still recovering from a civil war and had a smaller navy than Chile. 65 years later the US was a superpower.
“The Undiscovered Country” was a direct allegory of the end of the Cold War. The destruction of Praxis represented the Chernobyl nuclear disaster, which helped lead to the fall of the Soviet Union. Throughout TOS, the Klingons represented the USSR, whilst the Federation/Star Fleet represented the USA. As such, while Undiscovered Country DID deal with bigotry, at the time it was more about geopolitical rivalries than pure racism. It was about the end of a political struggle that had defined the previous couple of generations, and that we were going to have to figure out how to move forward from.
Lore Reloaded: "...Avarices..." Me: "You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means." Seriously, Avarice is a more archaic term for greed and is associated with the desire for wealth. More appropriate terms would be: frailties, flaws, transgressions, indulgences, failings, or errors. Any of those would convey the message you want if you replace the word "avarice" with any of them. It would certainly be more appropriate to use any of those words.
From what I remember of the 1990's Usenet discussions of Star Trek fans about this movie, they were more disturbed by Spock forcing his mind meld on another Vulcan. Spock also did this to Bones to implant him with his Chakkra in the Wrath of Khan without asking him even though Bones is supposed to be his friend.
It wasn’t ONLY the actions of one Klingon. It was every interaction he had ever had with every Klingon he had ever met. It’s not an excuse it’s a reason. He didn’t realize Klingons could ever be any different.
Well in the movie series Kirk had just lost his only son to a Klingon who stabbed him just to increase the pressure from a hostage situation, like a hot minute before "The Undiscovered Country." So maybe his bigotry was the result of what we used to call "character development" back when they used to actually write new content of high quality occasionally. Think about it: In the first film, Kirk was having a mid-life crisis, then in the second film he discovers he has a son, and in the third film his son is murdered by Klingons on a secret military mission. Then he goes to find Spock, they have a very tedious encounter with Spock's half-brother, and then they go to a conference at Khitomer, and who is the antagonist? Another dang Klingon on a secret military mission! No wonder Kirk hates them at that point.
@@alisondenu5317 also look at the amount of innocent people Kirk has seen the Klingons kill in cold blood, how many planets have they conquered and slaughtered the men and raped the women. How many crewmen has kirk lost. In the original series they were essentially at war with the klingons as best as I can remember. Kirks like a Vietnam vet who's survived countless tours of nam and seen unimaginable and unspeakable atrocities committed by the klingons and then they kill his only son (that he knows of anyway) and then after fighting Charlie all his life and career he's thrown into an all you can eat Vietnamese buffet with these people and expected to play nice and be the perfect social justice warrior PC do gooder and treat them as friends? This is what's wrong with modern woke people they don't want good stories or character development or character arcs they just want to push their ideology, in this case it's kirk is a straight white male so he is toxic because he was racist to an alien that's not even real bit in the timeline of the movies his reaction is what any normal person would say or do
If you think bout this whole facts. The Enterprise crew was under constint attacks from Klingons ship's and loss on both sides. Kirk was racist to a fine point but then so were the klingons. The distrust on both sides was clear on this movie. To not understand this from both sides is very toxic to say the least. The screenshot of Kirk and the chancellor have the discussion of how Kirk doesn't trust him and he understood why. A true moment of understanding if there ever was one. Note to gally romulan aile no longer to be served on diplomatic functions. Enjoyed this video. Though provoking. Keep it coming.
I know a woman that was r*ped by a man of a different color. She feels uncomfortable around them now. Suffering trauma awakens the lizard part of our brain that doesn't reason but seeks to protect us.
@@JohnSmith-wx9wj wow sad as this is. This doesn't mean that all of these same color people are the same. Do I think that they are out to steal or do something violent. Not by any means no. Just wish these pregidise wouldn't exist. Though without them then how would we then know what it is. As a white man in southwestern MN. It's difficult to say the least. As a disabled adult male it's rough. Do I hate the position I'm in. To a degree yes I do. The 5 screws and 2 steel plates in my rite foot means I can never be normal again in just walking or anything else just as a disabled male. When I say these things what comes to your mind?
@@rayhatton7683 I didn't mean to say she was justified, only that your instincts can take over to a certain degree. And what was I thinking when you describe your problems? That you're entitled to resenting your problems, but it's ultimately up to you in how you deal with them. Also physiology.
@@JohnSmith-wx9wj the truth here is after the sad event that she has been through her misgivings are understandable. Even as a human being these things are what makes the human experience a tricky one to say the least. Out of empathy and understanding I wish that didn't happen to this woman. As a disabled adult male. This is saddening and puts much veiw of how not be as a human being. From the movie here in the scene I described is still elaqent and defining from both sides. Kirk hears the words but doesn't hear the meaning of these words until later in movie. He then realized later that he was wrong in his hatered and figured to correct this as he went along as did everyone else in crew. A fine example of how to handle this veiw. Sadly this is a movie not real life. When I used myself as example of what comes to mind as a disabled adult male. This was an example of again the veiw of how ones perceptions are seen in a normal veiw. From my veiw clearly I'm not that perception. I'm intelligent and understanding. I wish though hatered didn't exist and cause many perceptions that are not true. I wish many things were figured out and more of a utopia shown in Star trek. Sadly the underlying problems are always going to be there no matter what. We can hope can't we?
Even in the closest approximation of an utopia, you can't take away people's right to be a--holes. In a society that takes away people's right to be a--holes, being a--holes invariably becomes the privilege of the powerful few instead.
I never thought of Kirk as racist. He’s just full of hate at having his son killed. And Admiral Cartwright just wanted to make sure the Federation had the upper hand over their long term adversary. Totally different than being a racist.
@@blockmasterscott that’s a really sensitive response. Do you always think someone is mad when they question you? I’m not mad, you are just Definitionally incorrect.
A literature teacher once toll us that there is a reason why Dante's Divine Comedie has a 90% hell oriented content and a few pages about paradise. Humans can't understand life without suffering. In other words, drama define us. A perfect future is just, boring... 😏
Except that’s not true. Dante’s Commedia is composed by 100 chants of similar length, 34 for Hell (including the First Chant which is an introduction), 33 for Purgatory and 33 for Paradise. Although people mostly focus on Hell and to our modern perspective it seems more interesting it is reasonable to assume that Dante cared a lot about Paradise, to which he devoted a good part of the last years of his life.
Love this movie. Kirk starts out wanting all Klingons dead due to his son and ends the film with a standing ovation and total redemption. Then as the signatures of the starting cast come on screen the audience in the theatre got up (this is 1991) and gave the film itself a standing ovation. I was at the premiere at the Chinese theatre in Hollywood in Dec 1991. Great time.
One of Shatner's best acted movies, imo. The way he looks embarrassed and changes the subject after his "let them die!" line, as if he knows he's gone too far in front of his friend.
His acting was at its best in the Meyer-directed films. Meyer talked about Shatner's acting feeling more natural when they were on the last take rather than the first. He literally wore out Shatner's exuberant energy to get the best performances out of him.
The Klingons were every bit as aggressive and conquering than DS9 Cardassia, if not more so. The reputation was deserved. It may be prejudice, but it’s not racism in this case. Also, the federation let the Klingons keep Cardassia and and the territories they took during the dominion wars. It was the ONLY way to keep peace with them after. I think people somehow have a watered down view of Klingon nature due to peace with them. I suggest going back and truly thinking about things after watching klingon DS9 episodes.
It is racism in this case, whether the bloodthirsty conqueror stereotype was deserved or not. Kirk would have all klingons die because one killed his son, well, for more than that, but that was the easy handhold to grab and allowed the producers to honour Merritt Butrick's passing. Prejudice is not trusting klingons after a career of having to try and outmanouevre politically and martially. Wanting them all to die is a step beyond mere prejudice. Actively seeking to maintain and heat up a war that could lead to the genocide of a species cannot be considered anything less than racist regardless of scale.
Looking at this movie it was my personal favorite because of this reason. The Federation and the Klingons had been at war for so long with losses affecting both sides, Kirks hatred of klingons came not just from the death of his son(of which he JUST learned he had) but from the percived betrayal as he had negotiated with the Klingoms before and with the Genesis Project it was pushed too far, but Kirk puts aside his feelings and goes out of his way to solve the assassignation not just to clear his name but save the Klingons for destruction. That's just my opinion.
It's an allegory for the end of the Cold War (a very contemporary topic for 1991), and a beautifully nuanced one at that Taking the film as a general statement on racism will have you overlooking so much well-written subtlety
This was useful, but not in regards to Star Trek. I find my writing sometimes lacks a little depth when it comes to fantasy races. Chinese novels write about 'face', and honor. The Klingons have honor as a basic creed that shapes their entire being. I forgot to add some different aspects of our own history on Earth. Honor. Honorable Death to go to Valhalla. Gods and devils. Time and Entropy. When writing, nothing is all gray, nor shades of white and black. Differences can make or break everything. Got more to write. Thanks for this.
Another thing to point out in Star Trek 6, the relationship between the Federation and Klingon Empire, eerily reflected the relationship between the United States and Russia near the conclusion of the Cold War.
In the novelization of the movie, Carol Marcus was nearly killed by a Klingon attack on a Federation outpost. So Kirk was really, really pissed off at them.
It's funny that Gene was so against portraying the main Enterprise crew in TOS as anything but paragons of morality yet also had all those Vulcan jokes from McCoy 😂😂 No doubt him and Spock were buds who knew how to flame each other in good spirits, but it's still interesting to observe with the backstory of Roddenberry's original vision! Great video as always!
Though McCoy's animosity to Vulcans goes beyond Spock - in 'Encounter at Farpoint': McCoy: If it weren't for the fact you've got no pointy ears, I'd say you were a Vulcan . Data: I am an android. McCoy: That's almost as bad!
Undiscovered Country has always been my favorite of the classic Trek movies. The way it tackles the issues at hand and how few people need to be in on it to make their agenda happen is brilliant. It truly was something that Star Trek needed.
James, I firmly believe that the removal of Roddenberry as the story runner was vital to the longevity of Trek. We would never had Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country, the Borg, DS9 nor Lower Decks under his control. And for anyone that says “… but Gene’s Vision!” We’ve seen it. TMP and the first two seasons of TNG are, for me, some of THE WORST Trek ever put to screen. Yes, even worse than Final Frontier, because at least you can laugh at it. TMP and TNG1 and 2 were filled with wooden nonhumans with cringeworthy horniness that poisoned one character’s well so badly that only now the writers are willing to not make her a victim. I’m shocked that Marina Sirtis didn’t walk after season 2. It wasn’t until Jellico ORDERED Troi to put on a uniform that the writers FINALLY clicked and remembered she was actually a fully fledged Starfleet officer. So yeah, your premise of allowing the characters showing flaws saved Trek.
Colonel Worf: all Enterprise photon torpedoes accounted for. Kirk: so if We didn't fire on Chancellor Gorkon's ship then who did? Spock: a bird of prey! Klingon: That's impossible a bird of prey cannot use weapons while cloak. Spock: The Enterprise sensors detected a huge neutron surge and as Mr Chekov pointed out...a neutron surge signature that big can only be produced by a ship
I never really saw it as racism but more of a conflict of old ideologies. There’s not really any evidence of racism, Starfleet had been at war with the Klingons for 20 years. I’m pretty sure the symbolism was more meant for falling governments more than anything racist . I mean I get that it’s a great buzz word for media today but can’t fit this scenario.
@@LoreReloaded I just don’t see it sorry…. Iv lived through something similar, when u make war for 2 decades it’s hard not to hate those ppl and yes want them to die, that’s what war is but in today’s therapy culture it’s hard to explain.
@@LoreReloaded lore I love ur commentary on trek, but u don’t know war. Ur a keyboard guy. Ur interpretation of this episode of Trek makes u think it’s racist but opinions don’t equal facts.
@@LoreReloaded and in the movies the Klingons killed his son and crew members. That’s grounded reasoning. Racism isn’t grounded in any kind of facts….. how did u interpret this?
So if a place is an ethnostate you can be racist against them? Does it justify it due to their ethnostate or are they not given the courtesies of others?
I'd still argue the Federation didn't need to help the Klingons. They are under no obligation to help an ethnostate. Denying help doesn't make one a bigot. As it was the Klingons were conspiring to keep the war going too. Still no reason to be bigoted.
@@LoreReloaded I am probably wrong and don't know if I can express it well, but I think it is not a racism. I think its hate, or hate for the enemy. Probably because what I think about racism. I would say it is racism if there was another Klingon empire with different culture and Kirk showed prejudice against them because of the first. On the other hand would you call it racism if the Klingons were the same humans as Starfleet and Kirk hated them the same, for the long years of conflict? Maybe yes, maybe it falls under the same definition. For me it isn't. And maybe I don't get it, I saw the movies realy long time ago.
If your characters are perfect, then they can't improve. They can't change because why would they! I don't like early TNG because the idea of "perfect humans" take away the since of character at all because they are all the same character then with no development and no need get over any flaws.
Now fast forward to Star Trek Discovery where we have a small vocal minority of fans who consider the very existence of pretty much the entire cast (save for Jason Issacs, Anson Mount, and Michelle Yeoh) as not just a flaw, but as an affront to their idea of what Trek is. Amazing how people get to watch a show where they can see characters grow, only to encounter a new show that challenges the audience to grow with them.
It's probably the second best Star Trek movie behind only The Wrath of Khan, I think Undiscovered Country is criminally underrated in the general public.
I think The Undiscovered Country was probably the best of all the Star Trek movies. I am definitely glad that the old cast when out with a great movie like this one rather than one of the sillier ones.
I find your point pretty interesting. Gene Roddenberrys vision was, that humankind learned of their mistakes and thus improved upon themselved. However, infallible humans don't make mistake, so by creating this kind of perfect human, he prevented them from making mistakes and thus learn from those mistakes again. In other words: He constructed a vision of humanity, that is not able to improve upon themselves in the scientif way. Without an error, there is no trial.
The biggest problem I have with Star Trek 6 is that Spock tortures “not-Saavik” with a non-consensual mind meld. Spock himself called the mind-meld “extremely personal” in TOS.
They play that “new evolved human “ when convenient. That one officer gave Spock grief for looking like a romulan, Scotty was a lush, and Kirk had a different girl every week. Even pike had ptsd. Off the top of my head.
not exactly the point, but as far as Alpha canon, there's only 2 or 3 women (depending how you interpret the scene) that Kirk is known to have slept with, and 19 women he's kissed, though a fair number of them were clearly not any sort of actual relationship. Definitely a ladies man, but hardly the horn dog that pop culture makes him out to be.
The problem with the argument here is that it doesn't draw any distinction between "racism" as we understand it, i.e. bigotry toward our fellow humans, and what's probably better described as "xenophobia" in the most literal sense of the word, i.e bigotry toward actual not-of-this-earth alien races. Roddenberry envisaged a post-racism (vs. each other) humanity - and, let's face it, there's nothing more likely to get humanity past in-fighting over skin-tones and sky-fairies than encountering extra-terrestrials. Given a new perspective on what constitutes difference, we'd pretty quickly realize we're all citizens of planet earth. The other kind of racism (vs. aliens) was always there in the original Star Trek. Almost every week, Spock got called a "green-blooded hobgoblin" or mocked about his ears or told he looks like Satan; all of which are deeply "racist" slurs aimed at the only alien on a bridge full of humans. Roddenberry's concept with Star Trek was that it was about humanity "growing up" and becoming part of a wider universe. Racism was present in the show, just no longer aimed at our fellow humans but at alien races instead. Roddenbery's problem with Myer's script was how it changed Kirk's character. He believed that Kirk would not damn a whole alien race for the acts of individuals. Being prejudiced against Klingons was in-character for Kirk, but wishing genocide on them really wasn't. Roddenberry was right about that.
Did you actually watch the original series, or just skim some clips for the purpose of making this? Had you actually watched the original series you'd have seen the inter-species tension between humans and the other various species of the Trek universe throughout. Dr. McCoy is constantly belittling Spock for being different. Other crewmen show him distrust, as in the episode "The Galileo Seven." Maybe you should actually watch something before you try to weave it into your theories.
I dont know if someone said it, but a little fact to the racist-speach of Adm. Cartwright This scene has a strange feeling and it was written that way on purpose. It was the first racist moment on Star Trek and its a BLACK person delivering it, thats haunting. Brock Peters the actor of Cartwright, whom as a kid had lived through the worst days of racism in the USA, was so disgusted by the text, he couldnt read it in one take. Only bit by bit. thats why they cut to the crew all the time.
I think there's too much emphasis placed on the Klingons killing Kirk's son. Even if David was alive, Kirk would still not trust the Klingons. They had been at war with the Klingons for over a generation and Kirk was at the forefront of it. The Enterprise in that incarnation was a battle cruiser and designed for war with the Klingons. Any captain would have had those feelings, whether it was against another race, another species or another nation.
This movie was also very obviously a mirror for what was going on in the US (and in the larger world) at the time. 1991 was the year the Soviet Union collapsed and the end of the first Cold War. A lot of Americans who had been raised to hate the Soviets (and, in the case of the military, had built careers out of fighting them) now had to face the new world where they were expected to work together and the old ways of thinking they were comfortable with no longer applied. I think Chancellor Gorkon said it best: "If there is to be a brave new world, our generation will have the hardest time living in it".
Star Trek VI was also a narrative on the ending of the Cold War which was happening at the time. The Berlin Wall had come down a year prior and the USSR had fallen (Thus Co'nos exploding). It was still very representative of the mistrust between the U.S. and Russia.
A very cool breakdown. This was a movie that for a long time did not have the greatest impact by the fandom at the moment. I think it was mainly do to the fact Roddenberry did not like it and people will follow others without their own opinion. It is a movie as a kid you won't care for because the themes are very adult, racism, hate, fear, change, a journey's end, all of these make up the Undiscovered Country. Myself I have such a greater appreciation for this movie not for what it covers, anytime a war ends you have feelings like this occur. But I also like this movie because it helped lead to thr changing of the guard in Trek that would lead us into the next 10 years.
Missed the point. The Undiscovered Country was about fear of change. Both sides were so frightened of change that ironically Kilngons and Humans worked together to try to sabotage the conference and the possibility of peace. Ironically showing that they could put aside their differences. The point is that Fear brings out the worst in us, while facing Fear brings out our best, and that is is a constant struggle. Not something we transcend permanently and never have to face again. As long as we are mortal we will have to confront change, and fear (of it).
@@LoreReloaded And I’m old enough to have watched the original version of the movie in the theater and see interviews of the TOS creators on what the Klingons represented. The Klingons were a creation of the Cold War. The authoritarian opposition to a Federation that was a Western Alliance projected into Roddenberry’s vision of the future. The Undiscovered Country was filmed as the Berlin Wall was coming down, and the Communist world was crumbling. Like The Federation, the West was confronted with clinging to old fears and hatreds or to try to move past them and create a “New World Order”. One that wasn’t held hostage to the threat of nuclear warfare. There was fear and resentment on both sides. Fear of betrayal in the West. Fear of humiliation and looking weak in the Communist world. Was there an element of racism in the Federation’s view of Klingons? Sure. But that wasn’t the core of the story. The core was fear of change. A fear of change that ironically brought the two sides together in their wish to sabotage the conference and the chance of peace….and showing that the very thing they sought to prevent was actually possible. Which made the movie series relatable again because it spoke to contemporary issues at the time. Also the title of the movie is a reference to Shakespeare and Hamlet’s famous soliloquy where he refers to death as “The undiscovered country from which no one returns”. The soliloquy is about how it is only the fear of death (change) in his mind that ties us to this world and convinces us to endure the struggles of life.” Because his fear is stronger than his hope….and the tragedy of the play is that his fear and uncertainty paralyze him.
After Bones closes Chancellor Gorkon's he beam under heavy guard to sick bay. Meanwhile the Enterprise crew and the Klingons work together to unravel the mystery of what or who fired upon the chancellor's ship and who tried to assassinate him
This reminds me of something Joss Whedon was known for on Buffy. "If you want a character to act OUT of character, you MUST have a reason for it." - like when Willow Rosenberg tried to destroy the whole world at the end of season 6, it was because of a chain of events beginning with the death of her girlfriend, Tara. I believe Kirk's anger at the Klingons and refusal to trust them stems from when his son was murdered by a Klingon in Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock. I also believe that it is completely understandable and believable, even for a 23rd-Century man with Starfleet training and decades of experience, as emotional trauma is known to cloud judgment.
It's not "racism," to evaluate a culture, philosophy or government as being despicable and the Klingons, as depicted, are awful and despicable. Going beyond this as the enlisteds did with their discussion of Klingons as subhuman was racist, also impractical as it might lead us to underestimate just how dangerous an adversary they could be. There has been a lot of effort to rehabilitate the Klingons with Worf and TNG. Unfortunately, they remain despicable. Only at the end of DS9 do we see a glimmer of hope for a better Klingon day.
I know in ST6 the crew of the Enterprise was booked to stand down, but I wonder if by the end of the movie Kirk WANTED to go. Two reasons, 1.He said after the briefing that "We done our bit for King and country" and 2. Reflecting on his captains log "How can history get past people like me" and his talk with Spock in which Spock asks "Have we grown so old that we have outlived our usefulness?" Meaning sure we can change but maybe it is up to the next generation to see that change works and Kirk realises that he would just be getting in the way.
Again, I agree with pretty much everything here. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Roddenberry had an unrealistic ideal about humanity. To have no flaws is to have nothing to compare attributes to. Very much like the great line from ST5 about needing pain, we also need our flaws. You don't achieve a higher consciousness by waving a magic wand and making everything negative disappear. You do it by acknowledging your flaws and rising above them. Also, this crew had been in a war and long cold war with the Klingons, which would breed resentment and hatred. I was in Yugoslavia in its final years, and I can admit that it took many more years, to drop the hatred I developed for some people. It's natural. It's HUMAN
Interesting video. My question/hypothesis is: Wasn't it Roddenberry who didn't want characters to have conflict, humanity had moved past that? Then, wasn't allowing the characters to have personal flaws that created conflict more likely the savior of Star Trek. Conflict, in ST6's case, was represented with an allegory for racism and the cold war.
I'm not a star trek fan. Don't know how I got here. But this does remind me of an episode I saw as a kid where Spock and Kirk go to Earth for some reason and an Earthling sees Spock and is suspicious. Kirk says something like, "forgive my friend, he's obviously Chinese". I laughed for weeks at that scene
This video seems to confuse speciesism for racism. In Start Trek 6 racism is a foreign concept to humanity. Speciesism isn't eradicated because these prejudices are driven mainly by conflict - threat response and fear. And the various species fight each other, or cooperate, etc. It may serve as an allegory to racism on Earth today but you have to evaluate it as what it is intended to be within the show. Racism is gone because there are no longer national states or tribal affiliations connected to heritage fighting each other.
The episode of TNG where O'Brien hates all Cardassians because of his experience in the war came out nearly a year prior and dealt with racism for several Starfleet officers too. But in this case even when O’Brien does the right thing he still isn’t sure that he was right in doing what he had to.
If there's to be a brave New world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.... I've always loved Undiscovered country because it touches on the fears and frailties on both sides of the intergalactic spectrum. It's easier to hate an enemy than it is to try to understand, but not all are like that. Deep Space Nine really explored that with the Bajorian and Cardassians. It's one of the reasons why I enjoy Star Trek so much. Despite conflict and indifference, there's always room for improvement and understanding.
My cousin toys with racist undertones while he played his character in STO. His character is a species wrapped in war. They've a supremacy instilled within them the Altarian Dominion, which preceded the Altarian Triumvirate (Fed) and Altarian Empire (Klingon Empire). A veteran of the later Klingon TOS wars, Tzenketh, Cardassian, Dominion war and the games own conflicts. These conflicts reminded his character of what she use to be. A warrior. His character is racist against Borg and it extends to Automata. She holds hatred to Changings and their Jem'Hadar. Romulans. Even looking at most Alpha and Beta Quadrant species as weak and even lacking in understanding true war until forced into it.
Kirk has his reasons to dislike the Klingons and your analasys of the film is good. Yet - his statement "let them die!" is something many Klingons would agree with under the circumstances.
I think that's a truth that's been lost. That civility between enemies. They want the other entirely destroyed, but treasure their foe otherwise like Richard and Saladin. That's been entirely lost to the almost childish understanding of our era.
It's like when Quark explained to Odo that thousands of years of evolution have taught creatures to be leery of things that are different from them. Prejudices will outlive humanity because they're baked in to our DNA but they can be ignored.
Well I wouldn't call it racism. Racism is based on the hatred of a race because of either colour or traditions or place of birth. Kirk's hatred is not based on any of those it was based on The Hatred of them taking his son. It's like me hating some one Murdering my Sister if he was black would I be racist if a lot of them did and that made me hate them all, because of that would I be racist no I would be in hatred of their actions not their race.
So if someone blames an entire race based on the actions of a few that's not racism. So if a person of color were to hit your son - you blaming all persons of color and saying 'let them die' isn't racist? Just to confirm..
@@LoreReloaded I would say it's out of Anger not racism once it subsides I would blame the one responsible not all. I myself have done such a thing out of anger i caught myself calmed down and redirected to the ONE responsible I never kept the thought it's all their fault racism is keeping it look at Nazies they never think differently they just hate Jews & blacks because they think their better its disgusting really.
@@danielramirez1529 I would say it's out of anger for his sons death and not letting go of it he was not this way before that but after he is so to me it sounds more like grief and anger not racism.
5:12 I mean, absentee parent. He only found out he had a kid and then shortly afterwards lost him. And there’s probably more too, Kirk was putting his seed in any receptacle he could.
Kirk had reasons to hate the Klingons. They killed his son after all and tried to kill him specifically several times. If you were a soldier good at what you do and the enemy keeps trying to kill YOU specifically, you of all the soldiers in your army, wouldn't you start to mistrust them as a whole?
For me the humans are perfect in the future is one of my biggest problems with Gene Roddenberry I can get behind the notion that things have gotten better in the future but you say that humans have magically become completely perfect I find utterly ridiculous and stupid which is why I like this movie it makes complete sense that many Starfleet officers would haveDeveloped prejudices against the Klingons who are enemies for so long not that it was right or that they should have. I have to agree with you lore on your point about how when are heroes realize they have prejudices they immediately work to get rid of such views which if anything that shows a more enlightened people shall we say who are able to realize that they have such feelings and then immediately work to correct it as opposed to believing that they are in capable oh such feelings and therefore wouldn’t have any which I think would be a recipe for disaster.
And honestly, that was never the vision of the original series. Sure, humans in the future had grown beyond the mistakes and delusions of the 20th century, but they were still had obvious flaws. They let themselves get goaded into brawls over insults to their ship, they got into military confrontations that would have led to an unnecessary and incredibly destructive war, they let themselves get led around by their gonads by any pretty girl, the list grows on. They had learned not to make the exact same mistakes of the 20th century, but they were still humans, still had character flaws, and still made the mistakes based on those character flaws. The assertion that humanity had become morally perfect in the 80 years between TOS and TNG was utterly asinine. It's a clear example of why a creator who has made one amazing thing should not be allowed free reign to do whatever he feels like in his future creative endeavors. Everybody needs an editor. George Lucas proved this with the Star Wars prequel series just as Gene Roddenberry proved it in early STTNG.
@@richardkenan2891 From what I understand of TOS, the examples you provide from it were not the original vision. Roddenberry's vision back then was exactly the boring utopia noted. The elements that you make note of originate from the Studio's input. I, for one, am very glad they made Roddenberry include most if those elements. It's actually why the first two seasons of Star Trek TNG are so bad. Because, like George Lucas with Star Wars,¹ Roddenberry was eventually given full credit for *everything* _STAR TREK._ Even though it was because he had to collaborate with others and compromise that _STAR TREK_ TOS was what it was. Not despite it. Once Roddenberry was given full credit, he didn't have to deal with as much pushback when it came time to make TNG. And he could make the show he always wanted. And he did.² And it was terrible. ··•✺•·· ¹ ─ Paralleling Roddenberry, George Lucas was given full credit for all of the things that made Star Wars what it was. So when it came time to do the prequels, it was _all Lucas,_ and very little (if any) input/pushback from others. And as with Roddenberry, it shows. 🤦🏼♂️ ² ─ *Encounter at Farpoint* being the prime example of how bad a _Roddenberry story without collaboration and compromise_ can be.
I love ST 6. Best Trek presentation IMo, period. I love how the heroes were shown to be flawed humans rather than immutable paragon's of pure virtue. Characters like that are not interesting or relatable. Just ask Rey Skywalker.. ST 6 had the best balance of Gene's vision and a relatable set of characters to a 20th century audience.
I don't think it was racism specifically, but that humans were allow to be imperfect. Racism is just easier to write a story about because of how it can resonate with everyone in the real world, and the timing was right with the social issues of the day. Any other time period and racism can still be used, but also economic inequality, gender inequality, etc., can be used to resonate with people depending on the prevailing social issues in society at the time.
A most enlightened exposition about that inner Trek that we always must be in constant voyage of in order to quantum leap ourselves beyond our petty human vices .
One thing that people tend to forget about Starfleet; they're MILITARY, or, at least have a military aspect to their 'mission', hence the command structure based on naval traditions. Part of that 'tale as old as time' is a sort of objectifying of the enemy, even if they're simply an enemy of peace, as the Klingons were often portrayed as a 'race of warriors'. THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY RACISM. It's actually understandable that Kirk had a hatred of Klingons, partially because one killed his son. Also, partially because of spending a good deal of his life in the service of Starfleet, who had a doctrine of knowing who would be a threat to the security of the Federation (some training doesn't just go away). Once again, THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY RACISM.
If you ever watched the series and took the time, the hatred was based on real-world experiences on Kirk's personal level. Section 31 took advantage of that to make sure the peace treaty would fail because they didn't want it.
@@LoreReloaded it was in the context of the Klingons having a darker than average skin tone compared to Humans, plus Kirk being white and all, I just didn't want anyone connecting the wrong dots and thinking Kirk and therefore Shatner was being racist towards the black community. Afterall this video was on a very touchy topic.
You confuse shatner with Kirk. Kirk is a racist, him kissing a black woman (Kirk only did it cause he was under the power of an alien by the by) doesn’t change that
@@LoreReloaded it was not me who will necessarily confuse the two. I often find people will do that, and with how aggressive PC culture has been getting lately, I just didn't want anyone thinking that he was, that's all.
You state at the beginning that the ratings were an issue during season 2 and 3 going down, Neilsen states ratings continued to rise season over season. I'm confused here. Fall 1987 - Spring 1988: 8.55 Million TNG S1 Fall 1988 - Spring 1989: 9.14 Million TNG S2 Fall 1989 - Spring 1990: 9.77 Million TNG S3 Fall 1990 - Spring 1991: 10.58 Million TNG S4 Fall 1991 - Spring 1992: 11.50 Million TNG S5
I'll just mention, I always watch ST6 on sad days. It's one of Trek's better moments and a good movie overall. Still, it's the last time we see the gang all together. When the movie came out, we had no idea this would be the last hurrah. We assumed there would be a 7 then an 8 and a 9 and so on. But this would be it, the last picture show. We would get to see all the characters, except Uhura, a few more times, but never as a group.
Like this comment, to dislike the video.
You're not my supervisor!?
I like the video but you have to c onsider Kirk is older and probably tired. His son was killed by a Klingon and his hatred in my opinion is justified. (I'm a minority btw)
Lol! I'm liking it just for fun LR!
@@clockztickin that's what I did
very insightful. i had never noticed that. most who review this movie state the fact that the one to go through a arc was kirk, they never see that the star fleet/federation went through the same arc. the seeds that were planted in star trek six came to fruition in tng.
Kirk becoming racist against the Klingons is a multi movie endeavor. His own son died to Klingons. So this made sense.
Technically he was a Speciesist.
@@mistermr.6938 yes you're right. It is a "species" bigotry. You could say xenophobic but he wasn't really. He only had a problem with one alien species.
I always thought the let them die scene was really impactful and for once Shatner showed great restraint and played it perfectly. If you watch the movies back to back it doesn't seem racist or anything of the kind it fits the character perfectly. You have to also take into account how much violence, bloodshed and battles he's had and seen with the klingons in his life and career. It's like if you lived in England when the vikings were repeatedly slaughtering, raping, robbing and torturing your fellow countrymen in unprovoked attacks and you had the chance to pass on the bubonic plague to them knowing it wouldn't only kill your enemies but it would probably kill everyone in their country but you'd still do it for the greater good and for the ultimate revenge
Kirk's anger towards the Klingons helped show that even heroes have a inner conflict.
@@darrenskjoelsvold True Generation tech fits more of the description of a xenophobe
It makes the allyship between Klingons and The Federation that more great and heartbreaking when they started to fight during the Dominion Cold War.
peace with cardassia was never worth the cost, not worth alienating federation citizens, and certainly not worth risking one of our fiercest allies for
and i kind it a little suspect the klingon peace comes after the collapse of their moon. then one hundred years later the romulan star explodes. uhn uh, i call shenanigans on that. how did no one see this coming? michael burnham's fam knew a star was going nova in precisely 3 days. how the romulan star going nova sneak up on anyone? then did i hear the klingon star is going to go nova too? and didn't starfleet just, sometime in the past couple decades get the trilithium weapon from søren whatshisface?
I really detest the whole Romulus destruction thing. Because it wasn't even their sun that went supernova, it was Hobus which was a sector or two away. Some nonsense about the shockwave translating through subspace and then hitting Romulus is classic handwavey JJ Abrams BS. And now thanks to STD we have "fan" theories about Section 31 being retconned into causing the Praxis explosion to help bring the Klingons to heel or some nonsense, which sounds like the sort of trash Klutzman would peddle assuming he gets that show greenlit. That guy must have some serious dirt on people at CBS and throughout the industry, because he keeps putting out these straight up lemons that are obviously being propped up by the rest of the Paramount catalog, not vice-versa.
"Allyship" isn't a word. I think the word you are looking for is "alliance".
@@The_Lucent_Archangel
Ok this is a fanfic idea
Praxis blew up because the Klingons was being hunted by an alien that can cloak ans bleed glow in the dark green. So when the warriors finally cornered the creature. It release a self destruct device that destroyed the moon.
I still wish they had done more with the Romulans in the movies. The Klingons ended up getting all the attention.
Even in Nemesis they got sidelined.
Yeah the klingons were overused in the movies I don't understand why. Even in the first next generation movie it was the Klingons again. Maybe they just thought the average person with just a passing knowledge of the show knows klingons.
And originally in ST 2 and ST 3, there were supposed to be Romulans. They ended up making the Klingons have a new honor code that was written for the Romulans previously. For me it's confusing/annoying
@@pqsk wow really smh I wish he had seen more of romulans and cardassians I mean anybody else its like the borg thing like there are worse things than the Borg
@@michael198427 yeah that would be cool to see more of the Cardassians too.
I would liked to have seen Pardek in Star Trek 6. Spock supposedly met him during the Khitomer Conference.
I never saw it as racism
I saw it as Americans vs Russians, Republic Democracy vs French/Japanese Feudalism.
U saw it that way because that’s what the writers had in mind, Lore is just going w the flow. He no more believes it then we do.
Yeah, he seems to be using xenophobia and racism interchangeably. This has been the zeitgeist for the past several years, where all you need the right soundbite and boom, the whole movie is now an allegory for racism.
@@titsbitchmcgee7502 agreed, Lore just doesn’t have a dictionary to help him out with proper definitions. He likes to just say stuff.
DISCOVERY AND PICARD ARE NOT CANON
@@freelancenerd4804 It's interesting that you would ascribe one political value to one species in the Star War cannon. Also Star Fleet is absolutely not a Democracy so I'm not sure what your point here is.
It's great to go between TOS "The Balance of Terror" and ST6 for Kirks character. Because Kirk was virtuous. Held no real bigotry and wouldn't dare allow it anywhere near his command, only for a tragedy to warp his view... on Kligons, which culminated in ST6.
Mayer just knew Trek. If only it where someone like him who was running the franchise.
Kirk's initial feelings about the Klingons was important. At this point, Klingons were responsible for the deaths of thousands. Including Kirk's son. A major arc of the film was Kirk learning to change his views on Klingons. I always thought Spock's eyebrow raise when Kirk said "Let them die" said it all. That was as close to an expression of surprise that we'll ever get from Spock.
you havent met woke spoke yet have you.
"It never even occured to me to take Gorkon at his word. Spock was right." Finally, Kirk realizes what Gorkon was trying to say. It was a beautiful arc to watch Kirk make in the film from "Let them die" to "And you've restored my son's." However it wouldn't have mattered if Undiscovered Country wasn't as great a movie as it was.
I literally just rewatched the movie yesterday, it's such a perfect ending for the original series films especially after The Final Frontier.
I re-watched it yesterday too! O.O
And yet kirk still died on a crappy desert world
@@Chris-rp9df he died saving countless lives also before that Kirk saved so many by assuming Command to save Guinan and her people.
Also he went to literally heaven for many years and an echoe Kirk lives on in the Nexus. 🤷♂️
It was still sad.
@@Chris-rp9df Indeed. But it was the perfect way for Kirk to die. After all his adventures it finally turned out that to be a real hero it meant giving up heaven to die on a dusty rock with a stuffy bald guy and a desperate man trying to get to where Kirk just walked away from to stop him. It may have been a bit dull on screen but I think that was the idea. Kirk died a good an honorable death to save the lives of countless people who will likely never know the sacrifice he made.
I'm so glad that the Federation and the Klingon Empire we're allies otherwise the Dominion War I believe would have been boring. The Klingons, that Warrior Spirit, really made the Dominion War more exciting with them in it.
Obviously you've never watched next generation the episode Yesterday's Enterprise ... The federation where doomed
@@moonknight1985 WAS doomed. Not where or were.
@@USS_Sentinel Picard whispered to Captain Rachel Garrett the federation thinks it has 6-months left
@moonknight1985 One of my pet peeves is that in the movie, and mentioned in the original Trek, the Klingons were a piss poor nation. When Praxis blew, their main energy source for the empire, the Klingons were on the verge of collapse. How in the world were they strong enough to fight the Federation, or anybody else, even after 50 to 60 years after the movie?
@@alexharper403 A lot can happen to a nation in 60 years. The US in 1880 was still recovering from a civil war and had a smaller navy than Chile. 65 years later the US was a superpower.
“The Undiscovered Country” was a direct allegory of the end of the Cold War. The destruction of Praxis represented the Chernobyl nuclear disaster, which helped lead to the fall of the Soviet Union. Throughout TOS, the Klingons represented the USSR, whilst the Federation/Star Fleet represented the USA. As such, while Undiscovered Country DID deal with bigotry, at the time it was more about geopolitical rivalries than pure racism. It was about the end of a political struggle that had defined the previous couple of generations, and that we were going to have to figure out how to move forward from.
Lore Reloaded: "...Avarices..."
Me: "You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means."
Seriously, Avarice is a more archaic term for greed and is associated with the desire for wealth. More appropriate terms would be: frailties, flaws, transgressions, indulgences, failings, or errors. Any of those would convey the message you want if you replace the word "avarice" with any of them. It would certainly be more appropriate to use any of those words.
He loves his projectile word vomit
thank you
@jp lol.. so because i utilize words not in common parlance it’s word vomit? You often so anti-intellectual? That said I did misuse avarice
@@LoreReloaded Being verbose is not a sign of intelligence.
@@jplonsdale7242 LMFAO
If I may attempt to paraphrase: Star Trek embraced its Shadow, used it properly and became stronger for it.
From what I remember of the 1990's Usenet discussions of Star Trek fans about this movie, they were more disturbed by Spock forcing his mind meld on another Vulcan. Spock also did this to Bones to implant him with his Chakkra in the Wrath of Khan without asking him even though Bones is supposed to be his friend.
It wasn’t ONLY the actions of one Klingon. It was every interaction he had ever had with every Klingon he had ever met. It’s not an excuse it’s a reason. He didn’t realize Klingons could ever be any different.
I won't delve in to Kirk's xenophobia, but I'm just here to say that The Undiscovered Country is the best TOS movie.
Well in the movie series Kirk had just lost his only son to a Klingon who stabbed him just to increase the pressure from a hostage situation, like a hot minute before "The Undiscovered Country." So maybe his bigotry was the result of what we used to call "character development" back when they used to actually write new content of high quality occasionally.
Think about it: In the first film, Kirk was having a mid-life crisis, then in the second film he discovers he has a son, and in the third film his son is murdered by Klingons on a secret military mission. Then he goes to find Spock, they have a very tedious encounter with Spock's half-brother, and then they go to a conference at Khitomer, and who is the antagonist? Another dang Klingon on a secret military mission! No wonder Kirk hates them at that point.
II VI IV III V I
@@alisondenu5317 also look at the amount of innocent people Kirk has seen the Klingons kill in cold blood, how many planets have they conquered and slaughtered the men and raped the women. How many crewmen has kirk lost. In the original series they were essentially at war with the klingons as best as I can remember. Kirks like a Vietnam vet who's survived countless tours of nam and seen unimaginable and unspeakable atrocities committed by the klingons and then they kill his only son (that he knows of anyway) and then after fighting Charlie all his life and career he's thrown into an all you can eat Vietnamese buffet with these people and expected to play nice and be the perfect social justice warrior PC do gooder and treat them as friends? This is what's wrong with modern woke people they don't want good stories or character development or character arcs they just want to push their ideology, in this case it's kirk is a straight white male so he is toxic because he was racist to an alien that's not even real bit in the timeline of the movies his reaction is what any normal person would say or do
@@jplonsdale7242 Weird pro Vietnam war, rapey Klingons take but okay. Oh you got the toxic white male angle in there too for complexity.
@@nimrodery im sure if trump decided to be king of russia or something dumb this triggered fellow would demand the whole country be nuked 🤣
If you think bout this whole facts. The Enterprise crew was under constint attacks from Klingons ship's and loss on both sides. Kirk was racist to a fine point but then so were the klingons. The distrust on both sides was clear on this movie. To not understand this from both sides is very toxic to say the least. The screenshot of Kirk and the chancellor have the discussion of how Kirk doesn't trust him and he understood why. A true moment of understanding if there ever was one. Note to gally romulan aile no longer to be served on diplomatic functions. Enjoyed this video. Though provoking. Keep it coming.
I know a woman that was r*ped by a man of a different color. She feels uncomfortable around them now. Suffering trauma awakens the lizard part of our brain that doesn't reason but seeks to protect us.
@@JohnSmith-wx9wj wow sad as this is. This doesn't mean that all of these same color people are the same. Do I think that they are out to steal or do something violent. Not by any means no. Just wish these pregidise wouldn't exist. Though without them then how would we then know what it is. As a white man in southwestern MN. It's difficult to say the least. As a disabled adult male it's rough. Do I hate the position I'm in. To a degree yes I do. The 5 screws and 2 steel plates in my rite foot means I can never be normal again in just walking or anything else just as a disabled male. When I say these things what comes to your mind?
@@rayhatton7683
I didn't mean to say she was justified, only that your instincts can take over to a certain degree. And what was I thinking when you describe your problems? That you're entitled to resenting your problems, but it's ultimately up to you in how you deal with them. Also physiology.
@@JohnSmith-wx9wj the truth here is after the sad event that she has been through her misgivings are understandable. Even as a human being these things are what makes the human experience a tricky one to say the least. Out of empathy and understanding I wish that didn't happen to this woman. As a disabled adult male. This is saddening and puts much veiw of how not be as a human being. From the movie here in the scene I described is still elaqent and defining from both sides. Kirk hears the words but doesn't hear the meaning of these words until later in movie. He then realized later that he was wrong in his hatered and figured to correct this as he went along as did everyone else in crew. A fine example of how to handle this veiw. Sadly this is a movie not real life. When I used myself as example of what comes to mind as a disabled adult male. This was an example of again the veiw of how ones perceptions are seen in a normal veiw. From my veiw clearly I'm not that perception. I'm intelligent and understanding. I wish though hatered didn't exist and cause many perceptions that are not true. I wish many things were figured out and more of a utopia shown in Star trek. Sadly the underlying problems are always going to be there no matter what. We can hope can't we?
.....Xenophobia, the Klingons are not part of our species so we cannot be racist against a different species. You could also just use speciest.
"Cowboys in space"
Me: Starts having Harry Mudd flashbacks.
Even in the closest approximation of an utopia, you can't take away people's right to be a--holes. In a society that takes away people's right to be a--holes, being a--holes invariably becomes the privilege of the powerful few instead.
cant agree more. some people are just pricks, it will not change unless we can control brain functions
Serenity is an example of that being a bad road to go down.
@@WilliamMoses355 Or Demolition Man. When you remove choice, you create robots - not humans.
And the government who then used it as an excuse to enslave or eliminate so called bad actors.
@@zhain0 that is a very scary idea. Do a story on it and see where it leads......
I never thought of Kirk as racist. He’s just full of hate at having his son killed.
And Admiral Cartwright just wanted to make sure the Federation had the upper hand over their long term adversary.
Totally different than being a racist.
Not to mention the loss of crew members friends and ships fs kirk let em off light
…. Do you seriously believe those aren’t racist actions… before I respond..
@@LoreReloaded Man, you always get mad when someone disagrees with you when you throw the race card around.
@@blockmasterscott that’s a really sensitive response. Do you always think someone is mad when they question you? I’m not mad, you are just Definitionally incorrect.
@@LoreReloaded uh ok. You just keep pulling the race card.
A literature teacher once toll us that there is a reason why Dante's Divine Comedie has a 90% hell oriented content and a few pages about paradise. Humans can't understand life without suffering.
In other words, drama define us. A perfect future is just, boring... 😏
Indeed. Something the Matrix also touched upon; the paradise Matrix failed miserably.
Except that’s not true. Dante’s Commedia is composed by 100 chants of similar length, 34 for Hell (including the First Chant which is an introduction), 33 for Purgatory and 33 for Paradise.
Although people mostly focus on Hell and to our modern perspective it seems more interesting it is reasonable to assume that Dante cared a lot about Paradise, to which he devoted a good part of the last years of his life.
Change suffering to struggle. Those who are not tested never find the full extent of themselves.
Love this movie. Kirk starts out wanting all Klingons dead due to his son and ends the film with a standing ovation and total redemption.
Then as the signatures of the starting cast come on screen the audience in the theatre got up (this is 1991) and gave the film itself a standing ovation. I was at the premiere at the Chinese theatre in Hollywood in Dec 1991. Great time.
Vices, not avarices. (Avarice is just one vice of many.) But other than that, 100% magnificent video!
One of Shatner's best acted movies, imo. The way he looks embarrassed and changes the subject after his "let them die!" line, as if he knows he's gone too far in front of his friend.
His acting was at its best in the Meyer-directed films.
Meyer talked about Shatner's acting feeling more natural when they were on the last take rather than the first.
He literally wore out Shatner's exuberant energy to get the best performances out of him.
The Klingons were every bit as aggressive and conquering than DS9 Cardassia, if not more so.
The reputation was deserved. It may be prejudice, but it’s not racism in this case.
Also, the federation let the Klingons keep Cardassia and and the territories they took during the dominion wars. It was the ONLY way to keep peace with them after.
I think people somehow have a watered down view of Klingon nature due to peace with them. I suggest going back and truly thinking about things after watching klingon DS9 episodes.
It is racism in this case, whether the bloodthirsty conqueror stereotype was deserved or not. Kirk would have all klingons die because one killed his son, well, for more than that, but that was the easy handhold to grab and allowed the producers to honour Merritt Butrick's passing. Prejudice is not trusting klingons after a career of having to try and outmanouevre politically and martially. Wanting them all to die is a step beyond mere prejudice. Actively seeking to maintain and heat up a war that could lead to the genocide of a species cannot be considered anything less than racist regardless of scale.
Looking at this movie it was my personal favorite because of this reason.
The Federation and the Klingons had been at war for so long with losses affecting both sides, Kirks hatred of klingons came not just from the death of his son(of which he JUST learned he had) but from the percived betrayal as he had negotiated with the Klingoms before and with the Genesis Project it was pushed too far, but Kirk puts aside his feelings and goes out of his way to solve the assassignation not just to clear his name but save the Klingons for destruction.
That's just my opinion.
"Flawless characters are unrelatable."
You mean just like Michael Burnham?
Lol ouch
It's an allegory for the end of the Cold War (a very contemporary topic for 1991), and a beautifully nuanced one at that
Taking the film as a general statement on racism will have you overlooking so much well-written subtlety
This was useful, but not in regards to Star Trek. I find my writing sometimes lacks a little depth when it comes to fantasy races. Chinese novels write about 'face', and honor. The Klingons have honor as a basic creed that shapes their entire being. I forgot to add some different aspects of our own history on Earth. Honor. Honorable Death to go to Valhalla. Gods and devils. Time and Entropy. When writing, nothing is all gray, nor shades of white and black. Differences can make or break everything. Got more to write. Thanks for this.
Brock Peters (Cartwright) truly showed his acting talent. He was so disgusted with his character's racism in the movie.
especially considering one of his older but very iconic roles.
Another thing to point out in Star Trek 6, the relationship between the Federation and Klingon Empire, eerily reflected the relationship between the United States and Russia near the conclusion of the Cold War.
The Undiscovered Country was obviously about the end of the Cold War, and how we should deal with it.
unfortunately pop culture youtubers are unable to pick up context about anything more than a week old.
@@guillermoelnino To be fair that's 30 years ago. I feel old now.
In the novelization of the movie, Carol Marcus was nearly killed by a Klingon attack on a Federation outpost. So Kirk was really, really pissed off at them.
It's funny that Gene was so against portraying the main Enterprise crew in TOS as anything but paragons of morality yet also had all those Vulcan jokes from McCoy 😂😂 No doubt him and Spock were buds who knew how to flame each other in good spirits, but it's still interesting to observe with the backstory of Roddenberry's original vision! Great video as always!
Part of it was that he had a very limited control in tos , that was probably another executive
Though McCoy's animosity to Vulcans goes beyond Spock - in 'Encounter at Farpoint':
McCoy: If it weren't for the fact you've got no pointy ears, I'd say you were a Vulcan .
Data: I am an android.
McCoy: That's almost as bad!
*HUMANITY FIRST!*
#HumanityFirst
Holy shit, YT is becoming more and more of a garbage website. Had to reload the page just to see the replies.
@@USS_Sentinel you sure it's not a tongue in cheek joke from a video game series?
@@LeoInterVir My complaint wasn't with the comment. It's with YT not LOADING the damn comments.
Undiscovered Country has always been my favorite of the classic Trek movies. The way it tackles the issues at hand and how few people need to be in on it to make their agenda happen is brilliant. It truly was something that Star Trek needed.
James, I firmly believe that the removal of Roddenberry as the story runner was vital to the longevity of Trek. We would never had Wrath of Khan, Undiscovered Country, the Borg, DS9 nor Lower Decks under his control.
And for anyone that says “… but Gene’s Vision!” We’ve seen it. TMP and the first two seasons of TNG are, for me, some of THE WORST Trek ever put to screen. Yes, even worse than Final Frontier, because at least you can laugh at it.
TMP and TNG1 and 2 were filled with wooden nonhumans with cringeworthy horniness that poisoned one character’s well so badly that only now the writers are willing to not make her a victim. I’m shocked that Marina Sirtis didn’t walk after season 2.
It wasn’t until Jellico ORDERED Troi to put on a uniform that the writers FINALLY clicked and remembered she was actually a fully fledged Starfleet officer.
So yeah, your premise of allowing the characters showing flaws saved Trek.
Colonel Worf: all Enterprise photon torpedoes accounted for. Kirk: so if We didn't fire on Chancellor Gorkon's ship then who did? Spock: a bird of prey! Klingon: That's impossible a bird of prey cannot use weapons while cloak. Spock: The Enterprise sensors detected a huge neutron surge and as Mr Chekov pointed out...a neutron surge signature that big can only be produced by a ship
I never really saw it as racism but more of a conflict of old ideologies. There’s not really any evidence of racism, Starfleet had been at war with the Klingons for 20 years. I’m pretty sure the symbolism was more meant for falling governments more than anything racist . I mean I get that it’s a great buzz word for media today but can’t fit this scenario.
So starfleet officers that want them all to die , and others that think they smell and discusses how the newer models can talk .. isn’t.. racist?
If you say a people smell, makes fun of them by saying they can’t talk… and call that racism.. it’s just using a buzz word?
@@LoreReloaded I just don’t see it sorry…. Iv lived through something similar, when u make war for 2 decades it’s hard not to hate those ppl and yes want them to die, that’s what war is but in today’s therapy culture it’s hard to explain.
@@LoreReloaded lore I love ur commentary on trek, but u don’t know war. Ur a keyboard guy. Ur interpretation of this episode of Trek makes u think it’s racist but opinions don’t equal facts.
@@LoreReloaded and in the movies the Klingons killed his son and crew members. That’s grounded reasoning. Racism isn’t grounded in any kind of facts….. how did u interpret this?
I feel like they're (Klingons) an ethnostate so it's a little different.
So if a place is an ethnostate you can be racist against them? Does it justify it due to their ethnostate or are they not given the courtesies of others?
How is it different? Kirk is still expressing a bigoted POV.
I'd still argue the Federation didn't need to help the Klingons.
They are under no obligation to help an ethnostate.
Denying help doesn't make one a bigot.
As it was the Klingons were conspiring to keep the war going too.
Still no reason to be bigoted.
@@LoreReloaded I am probably wrong and don't know if I can express it well, but I think it is not a racism.
I think its hate, or hate for the enemy.
Probably because what I think about racism. I would say it is racism if there was another Klingon empire with different culture and Kirk showed prejudice against them because of the first.
On the other hand would you call it racism if the Klingons were the same humans as Starfleet and Kirk hated them the same, for the long years of conflict? Maybe yes, maybe it falls under the same definition. For me it isn't. And maybe I don't get it, I saw the movies realy long time ago.
If your characters are perfect, then they can't improve. They can't change because why would they! I don't like early TNG because the idea of "perfect humans" take away the since of character at all because they are all the same character then with no development and no need get over any flaws.
Now fast forward to Star Trek Discovery where we have a small vocal minority of fans who consider the very existence of pretty much the entire cast (save for Jason Issacs, Anson Mount, and Michelle Yeoh) as not just a flaw, but as an affront to their idea of what Trek is.
Amazing how people get to watch a show where they can see characters grow, only to encounter a new show that challenges the audience to grow with them.
@@CarbideSix Yep.
@@CarbideSix everyone I’ve spoken to who doesn’t like discovery say it’s because it’s poorly written and plays fast and loose with existing canon.
DISCOVERY AND PICARD ARE NOT CANON
@@CarbideSix well, i'm still in season 2, but discovery is great. i'm hooked
It's probably the second best Star Trek movie behind only The Wrath of Khan, I think Undiscovered Country is criminally underrated in the general public.
I think The Undiscovered Country was probably the best of all the Star Trek movies. I am definitely glad that the old cast when out with a great movie like this one rather than one of the sillier ones.
I find your point pretty interesting.
Gene Roddenberrys vision was, that humankind learned of their mistakes and thus improved upon themselved. However, infallible humans don't make mistake, so by creating this kind of perfect human, he prevented them from making mistakes and thus learn from those mistakes again. In other words: He constructed a vision of humanity, that is not able to improve upon themselves in the scientif way. Without an error, there is no trial.
The biggest problem I have with Star Trek 6 is that Spock tortures “not-Saavik” with a non-consensual mind meld. Spock himself called the mind-meld “extremely personal” in TOS.
They play that “new evolved human “ when convenient. That one officer gave Spock grief for looking like a romulan, Scotty was a lush, and Kirk had a different girl every week. Even pike had ptsd. Off the top of my head.
not exactly the point, but as far as Alpha canon, there's only 2 or 3 women (depending how you interpret the scene) that Kirk is known to have slept with, and 19 women he's kissed, though a fair number of them were clearly not any sort of actual relationship. Definitely a ladies man, but hardly the horn dog that pop culture makes him out to be.
The problem with the argument here is that it doesn't draw any distinction between "racism" as we understand it, i.e. bigotry toward our fellow humans, and what's probably better described as "xenophobia" in the most literal sense of the word, i.e bigotry toward actual not-of-this-earth alien races.
Roddenberry envisaged a post-racism (vs. each other) humanity - and, let's face it, there's nothing more likely to get humanity past in-fighting over skin-tones and sky-fairies than encountering extra-terrestrials. Given a new perspective on what constitutes difference, we'd pretty quickly realize we're all citizens of planet earth.
The other kind of racism (vs. aliens) was always there in the original Star Trek. Almost every week, Spock got called a "green-blooded hobgoblin" or mocked about his ears or told he looks like Satan; all of which are deeply "racist" slurs aimed at the only alien on a bridge full of humans.
Roddenberry's concept with Star Trek was that it was about humanity "growing up" and becoming part of a wider universe. Racism was present in the show, just no longer aimed at our fellow humans but at alien races instead.
Roddenbery's problem with Myer's script was how it changed Kirk's character. He believed that Kirk would not damn a whole alien race for the acts of individuals. Being prejudiced against Klingons was in-character for Kirk, but wishing genocide on them really wasn't. Roddenberry was right about that.
Did you actually watch the original series, or just skim some clips for the purpose of making this? Had you actually watched the original series you'd have seen the inter-species tension between humans and the other various species of the Trek universe throughout. Dr. McCoy is constantly belittling Spock for being different. Other crewmen show him distrust, as in the episode "The Galileo Seven." Maybe you should actually watch something before you try to weave it into your theories.
The irony in saying I didn’t watch something when the person clearly didn’t watch the entirety of the video
I dont know if someone said it, but a little fact to the racist-speach of Adm. Cartwright
This scene has a strange feeling and it was written that way on purpose. It was the first racist moment on Star Trek and its a BLACK person delivering it, thats haunting. Brock Peters the actor of Cartwright, whom as a kid had lived through the worst days of racism in the USA, was so disgusted by the text, he couldnt read it in one take. Only bit by bit. thats why they cut to the crew all the time.
A lot of the actors had issues with the movie curiously
@@LoreReloaded Yes, I understand the "Guess who's coming to dinner" line was originally to have been said by Uhuru but Nichelle refused to say it.
Lore, you are at the Top of your Game, my friend. Excellent Analysis! 👍👍
In Enterprise they use that theme a lot: Humans hating Vulkans, Vulkans hating Andorians, Vulkans seeing Humans as inferiors, ...
A society devoid of bigotry and hatred is a goal we'll never achieve, but one we only fail if we stop striving for it.
It'd be nice if we got there.
I think there's too much emphasis placed on the Klingons killing Kirk's son. Even if David was alive, Kirk would still not trust the Klingons. They had been at war with the Klingons for over a generation and Kirk was at the forefront of it. The Enterprise in that incarnation was a battle cruiser and designed for war with the Klingons. Any captain would have had those feelings, whether it was against another race, another species or another nation.
This movie was also very obviously a mirror for what was going on in the US (and in the larger world) at the time. 1991 was the year the Soviet Union collapsed and the end of the first Cold War. A lot of Americans who had been raised to hate the Soviets (and, in the case of the military, had built careers out of fighting them) now had to face the new world where they were expected to work together and the old ways of thinking they were comfortable with no longer applied. I think Chancellor Gorkon said it best: "If there is to be a brave new world, our generation will have the hardest time living in it".
I'm a firm believer that Star Trek became great in spite of Gene Roddenberry, not because of it.
Superior video essay. Thank you. Subscribed
Star Trek VI was also a narrative on the ending of the Cold War which was happening at the time. The Berlin Wall had come down a year prior and the USSR had fallen (Thus Co'nos exploding). It was still very representative of the mistrust between the U.S. and Russia.
This clip makes me thing may phone is listening to me was taking about this film and scene just yesterday. Great film....
A very cool breakdown. This was a movie that for a long time did not have the greatest impact by the fandom at the moment. I think it was mainly do to the fact Roddenberry did not like it and people will follow others without their own opinion. It is a movie as a kid you won't care for because the themes are very adult, racism, hate, fear, change, a journey's end, all of these make up the Undiscovered Country. Myself I have such a greater appreciation for this movie not for what it covers, anytime a war ends you have feelings like this occur. But I also like this movie because it helped lead to thr changing of the guard in Trek that would lead us into the next 10 years.
I always found this movie to be a reflection of the current events of the time it was released. The end of the Cold War
Missed the point. The Undiscovered Country was about fear of change. Both sides were so frightened of change that ironically Kilngons and Humans worked together to try to sabotage the conference and the possibility of peace. Ironically showing that they could put aside their differences.
The point is that Fear brings out the worst in us, while facing Fear brings out our best, and that is is a constant struggle. Not something we transcend permanently and never have to face again. As long as we are mortal we will have to confront change, and fear (of it).
I didn’t. I even show clips from the original creator discussing the point
@@LoreReloaded And I’m old enough to have watched the original version of the movie in the theater and see interviews of the TOS creators on what the Klingons represented. The Klingons were a creation of the Cold War. The authoritarian opposition to a Federation that was a Western Alliance projected into Roddenberry’s vision of the future.
The Undiscovered Country was filmed as the Berlin Wall was coming down, and the Communist world was crumbling. Like The Federation, the West was confronted with clinging to old fears and hatreds or to try to move past them and create a “New World Order”. One that wasn’t held hostage to the threat of nuclear warfare. There was fear and resentment on both sides. Fear of betrayal in the West. Fear of humiliation and looking weak in the Communist world. Was there an element of racism in the Federation’s view of Klingons? Sure. But that wasn’t the core of the story. The core was fear of change. A fear of change that ironically brought the two sides together in their wish to sabotage the conference and the chance of peace….and showing that the very thing they sought to prevent was actually possible. Which made the movie series relatable again because it spoke to contemporary issues at the time.
Also the title of the movie is a reference to Shakespeare and Hamlet’s famous soliloquy where he refers to death as “The undiscovered country from which no one returns”. The soliloquy is about how it is only the fear of death (change) in his mind that ties us to this world and convinces us to endure the struggles of life.” Because his fear is stronger than his hope….and the tragedy of the play is that his fear and uncertainty paralyze him.
After Bones closes Chancellor Gorkon's he beam under heavy guard to sick bay. Meanwhile the Enterprise crew and the Klingons work together to unravel the mystery of what or who fired upon the chancellor's ship and who tried to assassinate him
DISCOVERY AND PICARD ARE NOT CANON
This reminds me of something Joss Whedon was known for on Buffy. "If you want a character to act OUT of character, you MUST have a reason for it." - like when Willow Rosenberg tried to destroy the whole world at the end of season 6, it was because of a chain of events beginning with the death of her girlfriend, Tara.
I believe Kirk's anger at the Klingons and refusal to trust them stems from when his son was murdered by a Klingon in Star Trek 3: The Search for Spock. I also believe that it is completely understandable and believable, even for a 23rd-Century man with Starfleet training and decades of experience, as emotional trauma is known to cloud judgment.
It's not "racism," to evaluate a culture, philosophy or government as being despicable and the Klingons, as depicted, are awful and despicable. Going beyond this as the enlisteds did with their discussion of Klingons as subhuman was racist, also impractical as it might lead us to underestimate just how dangerous an adversary they could be. There has been a lot of effort to rehabilitate the Klingons with Worf and TNG. Unfortunately, they remain despicable. Only at the end of DS9 do we see a glimmer of hope for a better Klingon day.
I know in ST6 the crew of the Enterprise was booked to stand down, but I wonder if by the end of the movie Kirk WANTED to go. Two reasons, 1.He said after the briefing that "We done our bit for King and country" and 2. Reflecting on his captains log "How can history get past people like me" and his talk with Spock in which Spock asks "Have we grown so old that we have outlived our usefulness?" Meaning sure we can change but maybe it is up to the next generation to see that change works and Kirk realises that he would just be getting in the way.
Again, I agree with pretty much everything here. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Roddenberry had an unrealistic ideal about humanity. To have no flaws is to have nothing to compare attributes to. Very much like the great line from ST5 about needing pain, we also need our flaws.
You don't achieve a higher consciousness by waving a magic wand and making everything negative disappear. You do it by acknowledging your flaws and rising above them.
Also, this crew had been in a war and long cold war with the Klingons, which would breed resentment and hatred. I was in Yugoslavia in its final years, and I can admit that it took many more years, to drop the hatred I developed for some people. It's natural. It's HUMAN
DISCOVERY AND PICARD ARE NOT CANON
Interesting video. My question/hypothesis is: Wasn't it Roddenberry who didn't want characters to have conflict, humanity had moved past that? Then, wasn't allowing the characters to have personal flaws that created conflict more likely the savior of Star Trek. Conflict, in ST6's case, was represented with an allegory for racism and the cold war.
I'm not a star trek fan. Don't know how I got here. But this does remind me of an episode I saw as a kid where Spock and Kirk go to Earth for some reason and an Earthling sees Spock and is suspicious. Kirk says something like, "forgive my friend, he's obviously Chinese".
I laughed for weeks at that scene
... I.. don't remember that at all. Now I want to go and find that clip..
This video seems to confuse speciesism for racism. In Start Trek 6 racism is a foreign concept to humanity. Speciesism isn't eradicated because these prejudices are driven mainly by conflict - threat response and fear. And the various species fight each other, or cooperate, etc. It may serve as an allegory to racism on Earth today but you have to evaluate it as what it is intended to be within the show. Racism is gone because there are no longer national states or tribal affiliations connected to heritage fighting each other.
The episode of TNG where O'Brien hates all Cardassians because of his experience in the war came out nearly a year prior and dealt with racism for several Starfleet officers too. But in this case even when O’Brien does the right thing he still isn’t sure that he was right in doing what he had to.
31 days of heavy alcohol use cured my Section 31 brainwashing !! now I stay sloshed & play Star Trek Online ! thanks Lore !
If there's to be a brave New world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.... I've always loved Undiscovered country because it touches on the fears and frailties on both sides of the intergalactic spectrum. It's easier to hate an enemy than it is to try to understand, but not all are like that. Deep Space Nine really explored that with the Bajorian and Cardassians. It's one of the reasons why I enjoy Star Trek so much. Despite conflict and indifference, there's always room for improvement and understanding.
My cousin toys with racist undertones while he played his character in STO. His character is a species wrapped in war. They've a supremacy instilled within them the Altarian Dominion, which preceded the Altarian Triumvirate (Fed) and Altarian Empire (Klingon Empire). A veteran of the later Klingon TOS wars, Tzenketh, Cardassian, Dominion war and the games own conflicts. These conflicts reminded his character of what she use to be. A warrior.
His character is racist against Borg and it extends to Automata. She holds hatred to Changings and their Jem'Hadar. Romulans. Even looking at most Alpha and Beta Quadrant species as weak and even lacking in understanding true war until forced into it.
Love STO.
Kirk has his reasons to dislike the Klingons and your analasys of the film is good. Yet - his statement "let them die!" is something many Klingons would agree with under the circumstances.
I think that's a truth that's been lost. That civility between enemies. They want the other entirely destroyed, but treasure their foe otherwise like Richard and Saladin. That's been entirely lost to the almost childish understanding of our era.
It's like when Quark explained to Odo that thousands of years of evolution have taught creatures to be leery of things that are different from them. Prejudices will outlive humanity because they're baked in to our DNA but they can be ignored.
Well I wouldn't call it racism.
Racism is based on the hatred of a race because of either colour or traditions or place of birth.
Kirk's hatred is not based on any of those it was based on The Hatred of them taking his son.
It's like me hating some one Murdering my Sister if he was black would I be racist if a lot of them did and that made me hate them all, because of that would I be racist no I would be in hatred of their actions not their race.
So if someone blames an entire race based on the actions of a few that's not racism. So if a person of color were to hit your son - you blaming all persons of color and saying 'let them die' isn't racist? Just to confirm..
No it’s clearly racist. Kirks’ stance is obviously xenophobic which in this context is just racism put into a bigger box.
(Btw, I'm not mad or starting a fight or anything, just giving a counter - I know you're good people Rodan so I'm not trying to be spicy here ;) )
@@LoreReloaded I would say it's out of Anger not racism once it subsides I would blame the one responsible not all.
I myself have done such a thing out of anger i caught myself calmed down and redirected to the ONE responsible I never kept the thought it's all their fault racism is keeping it look at Nazies they never think differently they just hate Jews & blacks because they think their better its disgusting really.
@@danielramirez1529 I would say it's out of anger for his sons death and not letting go of it he was not this way before that but after he is so to me it sounds more like grief and anger not racism.
I never thought of this movie to be this impactful until now. Rather profound on your part.
5:12 I mean, absentee parent. He only found out he had a kid and then shortly afterwards lost him.
And there’s probably more too, Kirk was putting his seed in any receptacle he could.
That hardly nullifies Kirk's pain. He was already hurt that Carol had kept Marcus from him, to have any potential connection ripped away so soon...
That movie has a stunning plot:
Enemies colaborate, in order to be able to be on war with each other.
Kirk had reasons to hate the Klingons. They killed his son after all and tried to kill him specifically several times. If you were a soldier good at what you do and the enemy keeps trying to kill YOU specifically, you of all the soldiers in your army, wouldn't you start to mistrust them as a whole?
DISCOVERY AND PICARD ARE NOT CANON
I love how you look at the world. Never lose that.
Great wrtting and complexity in the characters not just shades of grey but real darkness and real light that pushes back and wins.
For me the humans are perfect in the future is one of my biggest problems with Gene Roddenberry I can get behind the notion that things have gotten better in the future but you say that humans have magically become completely perfect I find utterly ridiculous and stupid which is why I like this movie it makes complete sense that many Starfleet officers would haveDeveloped prejudices against the Klingons who are enemies for so long not that it was right or that they should have. I have to agree with you lore on your point about how when are heroes realize they have prejudices they immediately work to get rid of such views which if anything that shows a more enlightened people shall we say who are able to realize that they have such feelings and then immediately work to correct it as opposed to believing that they are in capable oh such feelings and therefore wouldn’t have any which I think would be a recipe for disaster.
And honestly, that was never the vision of the original series. Sure, humans in the future had grown beyond the mistakes and delusions of the 20th century, but they were still had obvious flaws. They let themselves get goaded into brawls over insults to their ship, they got into military confrontations that would have led to an unnecessary and incredibly destructive war, they let themselves get led around by their gonads by any pretty girl, the list grows on. They had learned not to make the exact same mistakes of the 20th century, but they were still humans, still had character flaws, and still made the mistakes based on those character flaws.
The assertion that humanity had become morally perfect in the 80 years between TOS and TNG was utterly asinine. It's a clear example of why a creator who has made one amazing thing should not be allowed free reign to do whatever he feels like in his future creative endeavors. Everybody needs an editor. George Lucas proved this with the Star Wars prequel series just as Gene Roddenberry proved it in early STTNG.
DISCOVERY AND PICARD ARE NOT CANON
@@richardkenan2891 From what I understand of TOS, the examples you provide from it were not the original vision. Roddenberry's vision back then was exactly the boring utopia noted. The elements that you make note of originate from the Studio's input.
I, for one, am very glad they made Roddenberry include most if those elements. It's actually why the first two seasons of Star Trek TNG are so bad. Because, like George Lucas with Star Wars,¹ Roddenberry was eventually given full credit for *everything* _STAR TREK._ Even though it was because he had to collaborate with others and compromise that _STAR TREK_ TOS was what it was. Not despite it.
Once Roddenberry was given full credit, he didn't have to deal with as much pushback when it came time to make TNG. And he could make the show he always wanted. And he did.² And it was terrible.
··•✺•··
¹ ─ Paralleling Roddenberry, George Lucas was given full credit for all of the things that made Star Wars what it was. So when it came time to do the prequels, it was _all Lucas,_ and very little (if any) input/pushback from others. And as with Roddenberry, it shows. 🤦🏼♂️
² ─ *Encounter at Farpoint* being the prime example of how bad a _Roddenberry story without collaboration and compromise_ can be.
I love ST 6. Best Trek presentation IMo, period. I love how the heroes were shown to be flawed humans rather than immutable paragon's of pure virtue. Characters like that are not interesting or relatable. Just ask Rey Skywalker..
ST 6 had the best balance of Gene's vision and a relatable set of characters to a 20th century audience.
I don't think it was racism specifically, but that humans were allow to be imperfect. Racism is just easier to write a story about because of how it can resonate with everyone in the real world, and the timing was right with the social issues of the day. Any other time period and racism can still be used, but also economic inequality, gender inequality, etc., can be used to resonate with people depending on the prevailing social issues in society at the time.
7:53 shots fired at "Firefly".
This was a great video lore. I loved the undiscovered country.
A most enlightened exposition about that inner Trek that we always must be in constant voyage of in order to quantum leap ourselves beyond our petty human vices .
One thing that people tend to forget about Starfleet; they're MILITARY, or, at least have a military aspect to their 'mission', hence the command structure based on naval traditions. Part of that 'tale as old as time' is a sort of objectifying of the enemy, even if they're simply an enemy of peace, as the Klingons were often portrayed as a 'race of warriors'.
THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY RACISM.
It's actually understandable that Kirk had a hatred of Klingons, partially because one killed his son. Also, partially because of spending a good deal of his life in the service of Starfleet, who had a doctrine of knowing who would be a threat to the security of the Federation (some training doesn't just go away).
Once again, THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY RACISM.
Awesome content!!
How much experience does one need before one's views cease to be prejudice?
The Klingons had shown Kirk who they were. He was just believing them.
Racism excises, to deny it does and deny its use in shows as a conflict point is stupid.
If you ever watched the series and took the time, the hatred was based on real-world experiences on Kirk's personal level. Section 31 took advantage of that to make sure the peace treaty would fail because they didn't want it.
That.. in no way.. counters my video ...
And anyone who tries to Accuse Shatner of racism for the purpose of cancelling him, let me point you to that one picture of kirk kissing uhura.
Who has said he is racist?
@@LoreReloaded it was in the context of the Klingons having a darker than average skin tone compared to Humans, plus Kirk being white and all, I just didn't want anyone connecting the wrong dots and thinking Kirk and therefore Shatner was being racist towards the black community. Afterall this video was on a very touchy topic.
You confuse shatner with Kirk. Kirk is a racist, him kissing a black woman (Kirk only did it cause he was under the power of an alien by the by) doesn’t change that
@@LoreReloaded it was not me who will necessarily confuse the two. I often find people will do that, and with how aggressive PC culture has been getting lately, I just didn't want anyone thinking that he was, that's all.
You state at the beginning that the ratings were an issue during season 2 and 3 going down, Neilsen states ratings continued to rise season over season. I'm confused here.
Fall 1987 - Spring 1988: 8.55 Million TNG S1
Fall 1988 - Spring 1989: 9.14 Million TNG S2
Fall 1989 - Spring 1990: 9.77 Million TNG S3
Fall 1990 - Spring 1991: 10.58 Million TNG S4
Fall 1991 - Spring 1992: 11.50 Million TNG S5
Cerberus: "HUMANITY FIRST"
Undiscovered Country came out when I was 9 years old...and it remains my favorite of the original series movies. I've seen it more than I've seen WoK.
I'll just mention, I always watch ST6 on sad days. It's one of Trek's better moments and a good movie overall. Still, it's the last time we see the gang all together. When the movie came out, we had no idea this would be the last hurrah. We assumed there would be a 7 then an 8 and a 9 and so on. But this would be it, the last picture show. We would get to see all the characters, except Uhura, a few more times, but never as a group.
One of your bests video.