This is actually a solid answer from Piper, coming from an Arminian. I'm thrown off, very confused and troubled by some of these comments. It's as if many have assumed Christ came to make us psychopaths, completely disconnected from emotion. What a shame. To anyone who might be reading this, God doesn't hate your emotions; truly, he hates when you hide them from him. Irony of ironies that we'd be kept from this truth because of preference.
I don't get how we got here in a religion based on "a man of sorrows well aquainted with grief" and witnesses such as job, Jeremiah and David all of whom were super emotional.
Its modern christians problems :) well the christians of the past probably had other problems. As we see the pattern, is that complete resolution to a problem in this world is not possible before Christ comes...though it doesnt diminish the passion and action to do what God calls to, to live the truth. As long as sin exists, this would be the pattern...keeping us humble and in need of grace
I'm sorry, but John did not remotely address the modern Contemplative Prayer movement. My friend just started doing this and it is all about clearing your mind of all thoughts and reciting a mantra! This is Buddhist meditation and is in no way Christian. Using a phrase about Jesus does not turn an eastern religious practice into a Christian one. John, why do you leave the sheep in the dark?? A good shepherd who looks out for the flock would address contemplative prayer for what it really is. So many are falling into this dangerous movement and yet you are not stepping up as a leader to warn and protect the flock.
Good job John Piper. "Wait upon the Lord." "Be still and know that I am God." "Meditate by night, upon your bed, and tremble." "May the eyes of your heart be enlightened." "Pray without ceasing." "-That you would be able to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled to all the fullness of God." All of this is God himself describing Christian Contemplation. Meditation does NOT belong to Eastern mysticism, it belongs to God.
There is more one kind of "Meditation". As I said, John Piper conflates them and causes confusion. This misleads many into pursuing the wrong kind imagining they are getting closer to God.
I much rather pray the biblical way. Paul wrote "What is it then?, I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also" I Cor. 14:15.
Prayer is conversation...communing....comparative of a husband and wife or a father and a child spending time together only we should be far more desirous to hear than speak...after all, He is God and we are not...
We do not need to ''listen'' with our mind or whatever nonsense Piper speaks about. Read your Bible if you want to hear God. He is not a man that He should be called upon just like a man to speak to us and have a conversation with us. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is Almighty God, the Great I Am. He is holy and righteous and He has spoken to us through His Word.
So you do not believe God still SPEAKS to His children by His Holy Spirit? Second question, does this also mean God does not have personal and specific plans for each of us that scripture alone cannot reveal? If so how then is one 'called to' ministry as Paul stated; he was called by God to apostleship?
His Child Yes I do. He has spoken to me that way but not through contemplative prayer or Roman Catholic mysticism and the VERY few times he has spoken to me like this it has always lined up with scripture. Check out the video of him doing it at the passion conference! And yeah, of course He plans for us but God can indeed use scripture to speak to us, not that He has to because His will is going to be carried out and He doesn't need to "speak" for that to happen. His will is done regardless.
The spiritual exercises of Ignatius Loyola that include contemplative prayer are programs with occult methodologies and techniques that are being introduced and practiced in churches, seminaries and youth rallies around the world. These exercises are taken from the old Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions and are the antithesis of the meditation presented in God’s Word. Other examples of these practices are the Walk to Emmaus, Cursillo, Centering Prayer, Ignatian Awareness, Examen, chanting, biblical imagination, prayers of discernment, and the Jesus Prayer. Disguised Practice? Most evangelicals would immediately reject divination practices like the Ouija board, for example, and see it as a device for contacting evil spirit entities, which the Bible condemns and calls an abomination (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). But the Catholic Spiritual Exercises, such as contemplative prayer, appear to the uneducated in God’s Word less threatening as it is disguised under church related activities. The term “contemplative” means to think about something intently. So by the name, one would assume contemplative prayer to be earnest communication with God. However practitioners of these contemplative methods don’t do that. The goal of these practices is to get people beyond thinking and into the realm of “experiencing” God. A tutorial of this movement is The Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola which introduces occult visualization. Sadly, these visualized apparitions are demons that take actual forms and usher the practitioner into the world of the occult and away from God. Not Biblical Contemplative prayer is not Biblical prayer because mystical “spirituality” downplays the role of faith in the Scriptures. It exalts “transcendental” experiences that raises the person from the earthly experiences into a supposedly higher “spiritual” stand. It is based on “experiences” rather than Bible based doctrine. God has given His Word and His Holy Spirit to help His children know what is of Him and what is not. The scriptures clearly teach that we should “give attendance… to doctrine” (1 Timothy 4:13). Faith that is based on mysticism is subjective and does not rely upon the absolute truths of God. The Word of God has been given to us as a light the leads us to the path of righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Trusting in feelings and experiences is not Biblical, we must “walk by faith, not by sight” (2 Corinthians 5:7). And “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). We do not see any of the apostles, prophets or disciples ever using contemplative prayer to connect with God. On the contrary all sorcery and divination were fully condemned (1 Samuel 15:10) and for practicing these evils, the Jews were led into captivity and destroyed (2 Kings 17:17; Jeremiah 14:14; Malachi 3:5). And the apostle Paul lists sorcery as one of many sinful practices that rob people from having eternal life: “Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife . . . and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:19-21).
I'm a Protestant and have used the Jesus prayer much to my benefit. For anyone wondering, usually when in moments of high anxiety, depression, or distress I will repeat "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" either out loud or silently in my mind, however many times it takes. It has calmed and centered me several times.
You have no idea what contemplative prayer is or have it’s woven into one’s soul or how it brings one closer to Jesus. God is spirit and he wants YOU to pray inspirit and in truth… that my friend is contemplative prayer.
@@gregc7517 Contemplative prayer is not just “contemplating while you pray.” The Bible instructs us to pray with our minds (1 Corinthians 14:15), so, clearly, prayer does involve contemplation. However, praying with your mind is not what “contemplative prayer” has come to mean. Contemplative prayer has slowly increased in practice and popularity along with the rise of the emerging church movement-a movement which embraces many unscriptural ideas and practices. Contemplative prayer is one such practice. Contemplative prayer begins with “centering prayer,” a meditative practice where the practitioner focuses on a word and repeats that word over and over for the duration of the exercise. The purpose is to clear one’s mind of outside concerns so that God’s voice may be more easily heard. After the centering prayer, the practitioner is to sit still, listen for direct guidance from God, and feel His presence. Although this might sound like an innocent exercise, this type of prayer has no scriptural support whatsoever. In fact, it is just the opposite of how prayer is defined in the Bible. “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.” (Philippians 4:6). “In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete” (John 16:23-24). These verses and others clearly portray prayer as being comprehendible communication with God, not an esoteric, mystical meditation. Contemplative prayer, by design, focuses on having a mystical experience with God. Mysticism, however, is purely subjective, and does not rely upon truth or fact. Yet the Word of God has been given to us for the very purpose of basing our faith, and our lives, on Truth (2 Timothy 3:16-17). What we know about God is based on fact; trusting in experiential knowledge over the biblical record takes a person outside of the standard that is the Bible. Contemplative prayer is no different than the meditative exercises used in Eastern religions and New Age cults. Its most vocal supporters embrace an open spirituality among adherents from all religions, promoting the idea that salvation is gained by many paths, even though Christ Himself stated that salvation comes only through Him (John 14:6). Contemplative prayer, as practiced in the modern prayer movement, is in opposition to biblical Christianity and for that reason I believe it should definitely be avoided.
While I agree with everything he said I can’t like this video because he doesn’t get to the heart of what this question is getting at. I don’t think he knows what modern-day “contemplative” Prayer is which is much worse than just contemplating on God’s Word (which of course is good). But this is what Satan is busy doing hijacking the truth and using good sounding words to deceive the gullible into doing wickedness! If your prayer involves MINDLESSNESS, breathing techniques, repetitive patterns, or yoga poses, repent and quit doing it immediately.
reciting MANTRA is part of ancient Israelite/Hebrew practice ! mantra in its original meaning is sacred words that connect you with the Divine -- in the Israelite tradition that is the words of Torah, the Psalms, the utterances of the prophets of Israel. so when someone is reciting Psalm 23 in a heartfelt and focused way he is reciting mantra.
It is the Holy Spirit's job to enlighten the truth of the Bible, in Spirit & in truth, for He is God & we are not! The Holy Spirit also leads & guides us in prayer. So what do we want, God the Holy Spirit, who is the Helper, or some man-made method?? Though of course, it is always good to meditate & study God's word. The Holy Spirit always leads us to Jesus & Jesus Christ leads us to our Heavenly Father !!! Amen.
I find contemplative prayer as a tool. Also that I find outward prayer as useful and sometimes I am prompted by Holy Spirit to pray outward things while in contemplative prayer when the Spirit leads me to. Honestly, why is this so confusing. I’m not Catholic but am a born again believer in Jesus. I find contemplative prayer an excellent way to have communion with Holy Spirit.
Its because modern christians are born into a different culture that has primed a different set of state, mainly, left brain usage and misuse of rationality. The temptation, in this age, then is to excessively use "left brain" function only and neglect the abstract more unfamiliar part of the brain/body system. Sin exists in every era, it just adjusts accordingly, just like we have prodigal son and the older brother who are both just as lost...in every spectrum of life, sin would try to sneak in
It's time to take away our eyes from men and put it on God and keep it there!For in the last days many(even prominent men)shall fall away from faith and follow doctine of devils leading many astray.Breathren if it's not found in the bible let it not be found in you either,no matter who is telling you how wonderful it is.Jesus said my sheep knows my voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow!That stranger might even be a well known preacher.Always listen to the voice behind the voice!
Through the finished work of Jesus Christ that He accomplished in His death & resurrection on the Cross for us, we as Christians, have complete & utter access to the Father! Why do we need Roman Catholic or other religious, rote practises, to make us more "spiritual?" When Jesus cried out "It is finished." It is finished. Fully & completely accomplished !!! John 19 : 30 When He had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, He bowed His head and gave up His spirit. Hallelujah !!! Amen.
@@happynow2926 Paul was an apostle...you're NOT, bud! Your bell definitely has a crack in it. Holy men of God wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures CANNOT be amended just because you're feeling contemplative today
@@johndisalvo6283 Sorry that your faulty and stupid religion centered mindset got butthurt but St. Paul was not just an apostle, he was THE apostle who lost his head for all that he advocated.
@@johndisalvo6283 If you've ever bothered to read the Bible you may or may not be idolizing and kissing up to, you can definitely see St. Paul going up into the astral realm, seeing things with his "eyes of the heart", and practicing his mystical abilities thanks to the Holy Spirit moving in him, which may or may not have included contemplative prayer which, btw, IS a well kept catholic tradition.
What he is describing is not contemplative prayer ... The scripture BE STILL .. and KNOW THAT I AM GOD, is. Keeping our mouths running, speaking to God, is what we usually think of as prayer .. and yet we often don't intentionally come before the Lord in silence . inner and outer silence .. to just present ourselves as Living Sacrifices . to listen in silence to Him. The Protestant and Reformed teaching is utterly wrong in this regard .. and I personally believe that it is arrogant.
Please beware. Contemplative/Centered prayer is nothing more than Christianized paganism (as in yoga or T.M.) - but with a subtle twist. It seduces you into using Hindu styled mantras and breathing techniques with biblical words or phrases; then fools you into believing you are invoking the Spirit of Christ. Repetitious prayers (mantras) or breathing techniques are found nowhere in Scripture. Jesus said, “Use not vain repetition as the heathen do.” If the heathen do it - you can be sure Satan is behind it!
You are completely mistaken. Christians from a very early period used what is now known as the "Jesus Prayer", which involves the repetition of the Holy Name in order to focus all of ones attention on the loving presence of God in Jesus. How can there be something wrong in being aware of God in Christ in the present moment through the use of certain "mantras"?
Dear bayreuth79, Please read the following carefully... Catholic and modern New Age promoter Thomas Merton (deceased) stated, "There is no doubt that the primary influence or fuel for contemplative prayer came from “Fourth century hermits who abandoned the cities of the pagan world to live in solitude.” Having fled from secular society into the wildernesses of the near East, these hermits would later become known as the "Desert Fathers". Merton goes on to write, “What the fathers sought most of all was their own true-self in Christ … they sought a way to God that was uncharted and free chosen, not inherited from others who had mapped it out beforehand.” First question... Where in all the teachings of Jesus does He tell Christians to abandon the world, and live in solitude as Hermits? Jesus said, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15) "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations …" (Matt.28:19) "Ye shall be witnesses …unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8) The Desert Fathers were in error from the beginning. They disobeyed a direct command from the Lord Jesus Himself, so what do we expect would follow? Second question... "The WAY" to God was already "mapped out" by the Lord and His Apostles in the Holy Scriptures; so why did they need another "map?" Justin O’Brien seduces Christians with this... “Hesychasm, a spiritual tradition that dates back to the third century, uses the JESUS FORMULA as one of its forms of inner prayer. A Hesychast is someone who lets the memory of Jesus combine with their breathing. As the monk Nicephorus suggests, ‘Collect your mind, lead it into the path of the breath along which the air enters in, constrain it to enter the heart together with the inhaled air, and keep it there. Give it the following prayer: Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me. Let this be its constant occupation, never to be abandoned.'" He goes on to write… "For a Christian practicing Yoga, the above description is not merely similar to, but the same as japa yoga. The constant intonation of a sacred sound: mantram is commonly referred to as japa." There we have yet another example of vain repetition; but can we see these repetitious mantram prayers as God does: even apart from their satanic origin? An earthly father is delighted with his baby’s first spoken word: let’s say that word is “Dadda.” The baby says “Dadda, Dadda, Dadda,” and nothing could please the parent more. However, if at the age of sixteen, the boy or girl is still saying the same word, “Dadda” - over and over again; something is seriously wrong! What kind of conversation could God have with someone who is constantly chanting, “Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus” or, “Come Lord, come Lord, come Lord?” Once again, the key to this whole deception can be found in the phrase, “the JESUS FORMULA.” The contemplative/centered/repetitious prayer movement hinges on Eastern based formulas and techniques that are so completely contrary to sound doctrine, they can only result in shipwreck for anyone foolish enough to apply them. MERTON'S LEGACY... “During his last years, Merton became deeply interested in Asian religions, particularly Zen Buddhism, and in promoting East-West dialogue. After several meetings with Merton during his trip to the Far East in1968, the Dali Lama praised him for having a more profound understanding of Buddhism than any other Christian he had known. It was during a conference on ‘East-West monastic dialogue ’ (an ecumenical council of Catholics and Buddhist monks) that Merton died in Bangkok; the victim of accidental electrocution.” Since then, Thomas Merton’s Eastern mystical, and pagan influence has continued to grow steadily: currently it is found in Catholic, Protestant , and many so-called Evangelical churches as well. To my brothers or sisters in Christ whom I love dearly, and are reading this account, I say, “Beware: serpents still whisper to any and all who will listen.” MORTON KELSEY Episcopal priest and author of, “Other Side of Silence: The Guide to Christian Meditation.” His books are acclaimed by “Spiritual Directors” (whatever you do, stay away from those people); and include such erroneous insights as, “You can find most of the New Age practices in the depth of Christianity.” And, “I believe the Holy One lives in EVERY soul.” Could there be a better description of New Age panentheism , and its total disregard for Scriptural authority and truth? - "Many are called but few are chosen." (Matt.22:14) Only the FEW who receive The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by faith are called "the sons and daughters of God." (John1:12) God dwells only in the quickened spirits (not souls) of those who are truly born again. (See 1Cor.15:45, Rom. 8: 16, 1John 3:24, 4:13, 5:12) “Kelsey was greatly influenced by psychologist Carl Jung, often combining various religious practices with Jung’s teachings. In realizing the influence of Jung upon Kelsey, it is important to note that Jung believed he had a spirit guide named *PHILEMON. The influence of Jung upon Morton Kelsey is quite evident in the book Healing and Christianity, as he liberally and favorably appeals to Jung on multiple occasions.” (From Apprising Ministries' website.) *Spirit guides/evil spirits often use Biblical names to heighten the deception. Enough said! For much more information go to www.hurtsatan.com
What John Piper is describing here is great! The contemplative prayer you're referring to is also known as "lectio divina," which is huge on having God speak to you. Sadly DesiringGod.org teaches a form of lectio divina as okay, so it would appear as though Piper isn't being exactly honest in this video
Amen Ken, you hit the nail on the head (regardless of what the rest say). I would add that here Piper is being disingenuous - he says "Way yes to contemplative prayer as I've just defined it", but his definition is not what is meant by the words "contemplative prayer". Contemplative prayer has a specific meaning; when people use that term, they are referring to exactly what you just described, an Eastern/Hindu-based set of practices that are not Biblically supported; what Piper is describing is just prayer, which we should all do deeply and according to the guidelines of Scripture. He can't just redefine something and then say that according to that definition, it's a-ok. Words have meaning, and meaning matters. God bless you.
Ken, I agree it CAN be...that is why cults adopted the concept. Only they contemplate within themselves with themselves. Or from time to time, with demons. God has some very clear guidelines for meditation and prayer and contemplation...first one must be born again. Second one must recognize the carnal mind is enmity with God, meaning it cannot be trusted to grasp TRUTH. Third, that the Spirit was given to lead and guide us into all truth, to counsel and to instruct and to correct us... And last but NOT LEAST we re to try or test the spirits predominantly through scripture. God will never speak contradictory. He states clarly that some in the Roman Catholic adopted some bad theology....so he is pointing out that some teaching under this umbrella term is false, heresy and deceptive. But since we live in a world of information we need to not toss the term....but take the time when speaking to so many, to clarify it...that is IMHO what John Piper did here... Remember this is just a snip of an interview...
And that book is one of earliest that I read about Christian Meditation or Contemplative Prayer. The practice is far from new ... even going back to Jesus' own teachings when he was on earth.
Why then did Jesus warn about "Vain repetition like the heathen"? Which is exactly what "Contemplative prayer" is. Christian meditation is reading the scriptures and pondering on them, not saying mindless mantras.
What he reflects here makes me very much sense. its about a contemplative approach to the word of God and arriving at the sweet knowledge of God and thereby having a deeper communion with God. Those of you want to explore more, please read , "The Ladder of the Monk and 12 meditations by Guigo II, a 12th century monk. Thanks
The Psalms are best chanted, as is still done in synagogues and liturgical churches, it is there where they become the most profound and transformative.
The problem is not whether we sing, chant or say the Psalms, or any other scriptures. That is fine. The problem is in the hypnotic repetition of a word, short phrase or prayer in order to blank out conscious thought and perhaps enter an altered state of consciousness. "Contemplative prayer" in this sense is actually a kind of repackaged Transcendental Meditation and is anti-biblical, anti-Christian and spiritually very dangerous. As St Theresa found. It seems the poor woman's hours of meditation made her open to severe demonic attacks that she believed were from God.
@ascendingthehills Cynthia Bourgeault, and also the ecumenical Taize community, as well as many in the Eastern Orthodox churches. Contrary to Mr. Piper's put down of traditional Christianity, I don't believe you will find the depth your heart seeks in any sort of fundamentalistic/evangelical spirituality. I was there for over 50 years, and what I have found, especially in the Eastern church, since I left the fundamentalist world, is infinitely far beyond anything that I ever was taught.
Look at how Protestantism is riven with schisms - "You think you have the truth because you have the book" - this is what Jesus said to the pharisees, presumably shaking his head sadly . How we love to point out 'error' - even Paul said "we see through a glass darkly " There is a depressing self righteousness and mean spiritedness about the comments under this video which makes me want go in the opposite direction and I've been a Christian for more than 40 years. Does it not make you wonder that when Jesus pointed the way to God he didn't say ' look to the religious the leaders' he said look at the children..
Right or wrong, why are we still taking swipes at the Catholics. It's fine to have opinions or make observations, but there always seems to be an undertone of dislike whenever the reformed, reference Catholics and the ways they seek God. Does not promote unity in the body of Christ. Borders on hatred. God is love.
The right prayers will always receive answers.. So all this arguments isn't it. If you prayer and God answer you it mean u did something right. Theology isn't helping anyone. Just bringing division in a body Christ said should be one. Be united people of God
I want to also add that Mr. Piper, for all his religious posturing, knows nothing whatsoever about Contemplative prayer. He has somehow confused it with something that the Puritans and/or other groups that have no connection to the early church or the desert fathers/mothers ever taught, and which remain vital and alive even today in the Eastern Church. It would be better and less embarrassing for Mr. Piper if he discussed topics about which he might have some knowledge.
Daisy, You don't say if you are familiar with the practice of Comtemplative Prayer (I assume you are because of your statement), but it should be clear that Mr. Piper has no idea what he is talking about. Certainly his knowledge of Contemplative Prayer is utterly lacking. Sadly a hatred of Catholics and even Eastern Orthodox is not uncommon among many prostestants whose foundation is fear and reaction, rather than love and response.
I am assuming that Piper is referring to the Catholic monk, Thomas Merton, who tried to marry Zen Buddhist contemplation with monastic tradition of prayer, silence and solitude, when he disparages Catholicism's contemplation theology.
As Christians we must keep in mind Satan twists and distorts truth. It has been problematic in Christian teaching to default to the other end of the spectrum. Piper, IMHO tries to maintain the truth by not swinging like a pendulum to the other side... Example, even the term mysticism has been attached to some Christian teaching like the rainbow has been attached to the lesbian and gay movement. Do we toss the rainbow and allow them to pervert it's true message? Contemplation, communing in the spirit with God, revelation communications from God, these were first found in the Garden as Adam walked with and communed with God before the fall. Some find it difficult to grasp the restoration of that relationship was bought and paid for by Jesus. We must not toss the baby with the bath water by allowing false religions to redefine or steal terminology as if it's is theirs alone...we MUST make sure we teach it accurately. Then when young people Google Contemplation or Contemplative prayer rather than only finding heresy like this Catholic teaching they find it taught accurately.... "Contemplative prayer or centering prayer is the child of God silencing his own mind to listen for the voice of the Spirit of God within their born again spirit...and then testing what they 'hear' by scripture and their trusted leadership...to commune with SELF God was the originator of that relationship. We need to take it back...
Piper lead his congregation to use Lectio Divinia to pray. There was push back by the congregation. He apologized and removed this mystical stuff from his website. This is not of God...Piper knows it is not of God. This is why he apologized and removed it from the website. This is not the first wrong move and wont be the last for Piper. He is slipping downward toward False teachers....
"Contemplation is a gift from God and unconditional love is the full development of the grace of contemplation ... the biggest illusion that we can have about God is to have a small idea of God .... contemplation is the necessity to practice virtue ...... you have to have the conviction of being loved by God in order to keep the commandments, and that comes through contemplative prayer, in which faith in the mysteries begins to move into the experience of Christ's Love, in and beyond the mysteries. Many of us get stuck on the eternals of our religion, when in actual fact contemplative prayer would open us to the realization of who we really are ... trust in God begins to grow in the silence and solitude of regular periods of contemplative prayer ..... centering prayer is totally in the service of finding out who we are, who God is, and acting accordingly, not in our own strength, but in the power of the Holy Spirit." ..... (excerpt of 'Who is called a contemplative' by Thomas Keating, UA-cam)
You know this guy taught that being saved meant being saved from God by God for God. Really? Being saved from God? While this statement is consistent w his (man-made theology), it should immediately be seen as contrary to the revelation of who God is, as found in the Word of God. Read John's letters and you will be reminded of John's proclamation that God is Love. Yes, many will experience God's judgement for their sins, but to assert that salvation is being "saved from God", that is being saved from Unconditional Love Himself, is anti-Biblical, and quite frankly, nuts. Anything else spoken by this guy should be suspect. Further, any theological system in which it makes sense to assert we are being "saved from God" rather than being saved from our sins (together with the consequences of our sins) is not the true Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You say we are saved from the consequences of our sins. What is the consequences? Death! How? By the Holy judgment of a good and loving God. We are saved from God in the sense that we will not bear His wrath. Seek understanding.
@@briancassada3259 Agreed. The reason sin has any "power" to condemn us is because its abominably wicked before a God who is Holy and perfectly righteous in nature. We must be saved from God's very own justice against sin. Being saved "BY God, FROM God, FOR God" is a bold theological statement intended to make people consider the bigger picture, viewing salvation in light of God's complete sovereignty and Holiness. Ultimately it all comes down to the Lord.
Wow, it is sad when you stop to think that Piper doesn't seem to know that contemplative prayer is straight out of the new age mystical playbook, in which the proponent empties his mind, chants a mantra, and looks within himself to try and discover a higher plane of consciousness. Very sad, indeed.
The contemplatives prayer movement if you wanna call it that that’s become a , Kind of trendy prayer alternative Or prayer plus ! Is to be avoided like the plague we are not meant to naval gaze and Finder in a core this is nothing but mysticism is started by a guy called Thomas Merton who was a mystic monk enough said
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1Tim. 4:16. I believe that Piper forgot this... Please care all brothers, we are on last dangerous days. Back to the bible only (2 Tim. 3:1)
can't we stick dogmatically to the Bible and still be meditative and reflective and contemplative on christ and his word and all of his handiwork all around us ?and have moments of sound silence and stillness for deep fellowship with god and to enjoys his divine presence ? as long as we stay to the holy scriptures and the truth ?is this not what the scriptures teach ?2corinthians 3:18 and the psalmist says stand in awe and sin not !and commune with your own heart upon your bed and be still!and tons of other scriptures ! I am with you on not going into catholic methods and weird teachings on contemplation and stillness or new age garbage getting into the church ! and just because other religious people abuse or pervert these things don't mean that we can't walk in these truths of true contemplation and meditation and the conscious presence of god and stay glued to the sound doctrines of the Bible
Most of the 'women' preachers' are encouraging & supporting this it is NOT the Puritan Prayers spoken of as Piper is referring to here..Actually John Piper has changed his feelings toward this and took off his web site supporting it !!! Thank God
He's ticked at those who go to the catholic mystic tradition? Contemplative prayer is catholic and that's why they go there. Now, I have no idea why he side-stepped the question. CP is an emptying of the mind and repeating words or names. Strange man, Piper is.
This doesn't help people in the new age discern the difference between the Biblical definition of contemplation and the new age definition of contemplation and it doesn't help them understand the difference between Biblical prayer and meditation and eastern prayer and meditation. Please do some more research and dig deeper and give a more defined synopsis of the difference, because this video just sounds like your approving any prayer, contemplation and meditation as long as it's not the catholic form. Not really helpful for anyone needing to know more. The new age have all the same terms as Christians, but all different meanings.
It is possible to exalt the Bible without understanding it. But when I read it and understand that it is God's love letter to me, I worship God who wrote those words. And it is important that we understand that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Spanish is interesting as it says "En el principio era el Verbo, y el Verbo era con Dios, y el Verbo era Dios."
The Word is Jesus Christ the Son of God and part of the Trinity. The Bible is not a love letter to you. Jesus came to bring a sword and to separate truth from fiction. I think you are missing a lot of understand and discernment.
@ascendingthehills Look at the Conferences of John Cassian .. dealing with the teaching of the Desert Fathers and Mothers. That is Eastern Orthodoxy .. and long before the Catholic Church broke with Eastern Orthodoxy, contemplative prayer was being practiced by the Monks and Nuns. You may be interested in a book titled The Cloud of Unknowing .. but I would recommend the Conferences of John Cassian .. .you might like that.
Not a great answer...the type of prayer identied by Piper is not contemplative but devotional. I'm not criticizing the form of prayer he speaks of, just noting it doesn't answer the question. Also, contemplative prayer exists outside Catholicism (at least as defined by Protestants like Piper) as it's roots can be traced at least to Origen.
Contemplative prayer assumes that spiritual truth can be found within you intuitively. That is dangerous. The Spirit is not within you unless first it is put there by the Word which is outside you and doesn't exist because of you. Contemplative prayer seeks to undermine the Church and the Scriptures but uses both with in a word salad way they are used as supporting CP.
No, the truth is opposite. it is the thinking mind that is dangerous, because it is driven by the world (conditioned) it is exactly by becoming humble, accepting that one does not understand the glory of God, that God can enter in our heart. Becoming humble is what contemplative prayer is all about. If we practice religion with the thinking mind only we can make mistakes like IS did. When we know our heart that isn't possible
@@blackowl-jx2oq You’ve got the carriage before the horse. The thinking mind is the moving spirit. Humans are one thing, mind, body, and spirit. The problem with mysticism is that it truncates mind and creates a dualism between mind and body. That’s why mysticism opposes the atonement of Christ. It is the mind that has formed the world based on it’s recognition that there is an outward nature. Name one thing that has been made by humans that was not first in the mind. Granted it has created some very bad things. But I think the Industrial Revolution was a good thing. Don’t you?
@@almilligan7317 mind is not equal to thinking. Mind is first of all consciousness. Thinking consists of words which are abstract concepts. All our ideas are derived from our environment. Our culture. This is what makes us do good things and bad things, but we have no clarity on the nature of things and actions beyond cultural norms
Mysticism is about unification of our being, not division and it is the result of purification of sin. It is sin that breaks our being into conflicting parts
@@blackowl-jx2oq The mystics do not teach that Jesus’ Cross is the atoning work of from God, that you need the Cross for Union with God. Jesus is the Cosmic Christ not the Son of God who gives himself for the life of the world. Such theology is irrational to the mystics. In that regard they are like the Greeks in Paul’s rebuttal, the cross is foolishness to the Greeks and a Stumbling block to Jews.
There are at least two definitions of "Contemplation". It seems that John Piper is conflating Biblical contemplation - studying and actively pondering on the scriptures - with the unbiblical and occult version which involves blanking out one’s thoughts by a kind of self-hypnosis through endless repetition of a word or phrase. Jesus Himself warned against doing this “Vain repetition like the heathen.” Even if it’s in the form of a prayer or His name, it does not glorify God. Instead, it is a modernised version of the practices the Desert Fathers learned from non Christian mystics they met, such as Buddhist and Sufis. Spiritually it is the same as Transcendental Meditation and with similar dangers as it lays one open to demonic influence and even contacting another spirit masquerading as God, the Holy Spirit, an angel, “Jesus” etc. As it says in Deuteronomy 12: 29 The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by enquiring about their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.’ 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshipping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. God HATES it, so DON'T do it!!!
This was posted in 2010 so I pray that Piper has changed his heart toward the matter of contemplative prayer AKA...mysticism/paganism...He also endorsed Beth Moore around this time and appeared w/her at Passion conference recently...He says 'NOW' its alright for women to teach/preach but not hold office over Church...Paul says 'I forbid a woman......... even though I have grown in areas from Desiring God...I do see Piper allows his flesh into many decisions..If Beth Moore was an ugly lady OR if a man was condoning women preachers & teachers...Piper would have none of it!!! Guess we can learn something from Piper....>>>and that is , anyone no matter how solid or strong they appear can be tempted and turn from the 'old paths'..and that is a warning to us all..
without contemplative prayer Christianity doesn't exist and the church becomes shallow, empty, lifeless. The Lord can not be known through the thinking mind. And ofcourse women should preach, as they are most often wiser on the language of the heart than men. Jesus teaching is the teaching of the heart.
Why has the church suddenly started doing this? Isnt it natural for the born again believer filled with the Holy Spirit to open their bible and ask God to speak to them? This is a new age practice full of deception inviting familiar spirirs to enter them. The great falling away from biblical truth is happening.
Hi Daisy, So very pleased to know that you practice Contemplative Prayer,as I do. When you mention that you were taught by the Trappists, I wonder if your practice developed from the teaching of Thomas Keating? Centering Prayer was my first introduction to Contemplative Prayer, and it has become one of the most important parts of my day. I have experienced profound growth and healing as God has most wonderfully met me in the silence. Peace to you on your journey!!
Good job, LifterWill! Keep at it, and let no one get you down on the topic of contemplation and communion with God. As long as the intention is to love, glorify and enjoy God, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Doreen Virtue thinks contemplative prayer isn't a good idea. - hmm... one person is right - I know God says be still and know I am God so this is encouraging of scripture.
there is NO such thing as "mind emptying" meditation in eastern traditions. christians seriously misunderstand the eastern practice. what is being emphasized by eastern meditation is sharpening and purifying the human awareness/consciousness. awareness/consciousness is a faculty that is above the natural and fleshly mind, that when trained and purified properly will sensitize a person to the Divine Presence.
@ascendingthehills Unfortunately no. Its due to the way church history evolved. Its first known reference was in the 3rd century (St. Anthony) to 6th century. The Church split into Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox chuches in the 11th century. And the protestant church later split from Roman Catholic churches in the 16th century. I guess we protestants didn't import any of the contemplative traddition from the split. Try Jeanne Guyon also, she's well read by the Wesley & Watchman Nee
why does he have to say "bad roman catholic theology?" it was the RC Church that gave you the Bible as it is today - was that bad theology? The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ himself when he chose peter to be the Rock upon which he will build MY church. The Son of God founded the Church - not Luther or Calvin,or Knox, or Zwingli, or Joseph Smith, or Charles Russel or John Piper or the other 1000's of different self appointed popes!
God is God. I know Catholics Venerate the Virgin Mary, And the Saints. I have read 7 Storey Mountain, Dark Soul of the Night and not once did they mention Mary. So you take what you like and leave what you dont.
When he talks about the whole underlying bordering mysticism that comes to this, "Roman Catholic Historic Bad Theology" really isn't the enemy here, I understand where he is coming from though and I have my strong disagreements with that community. Universalism/Unitarianism/ New Age.
Erich. I do as well...but there are many today falling for it because it is a spiritual truth that has been twisted and it would be best if we take back the truth aspect of contemplative prayer..communing with the Spirit of God within the born again believer and help lead some who are truly desiring God away from the hereses. I decided several years ago to embrace the terminology of mysticism and contemplative prayer in order to present it accurately from scriptural bases...rather than defaulting to some's decision to avoid it thus not teaching it's precious truth at all... Meditate is in the scriptures many times and often comes from Hebrew words meaning imagine, think, contemplate, listen....ect. So if we reject it rather than highlight it's true meaning we are 'surrendering the rainbow'. By that I mean allowing sinners to hijack truth and redefine it...man, politicians do this all the time...they hijack words from their true origin and formulate them to some 'new interpretation'. Make sense? Christians would do well to get the internet covered in apologetics that speak to 'Contemplative Prayer' from the Biblical perspective...that speak to 'Meditation' from the Biblical perspective.. One of the best teachings I have heard on contemplative prayer was done by one of these heretics....and I thought, how powerful this would be for believers to grasp IF ONLY HE PRESENTED IT THROUGH THE TRUTH OF JESUS SHED BLOOD...instead he is leading them to secular humanism with a dash of universalism.... How sad.....
Brian .. it's Will from Facebook .. the XXG group. Mr. Piper is coming from a protestant viewpoint, not a classical Christian viewpoint or anything that the Church Fathers might ever have taught. I find it regrettable that the form of "Christianity" spoken of and embraced by so many westerners in the fundamentalist/evangelical church is so very different from what are beloved gifts from the early church; the desert fathers and mothers, and Christianity as it existed before the great schism.
As usual Piper doesn't even know what the term "contemplative prayer" even means. I wish he would stop trying to invent answers to these questions! He's making a fool of himself and making people thinking it's ok to do new age prayer!
As a (currently non-practicing) catholic, I find his comment about "bad catholic theology" to be thoughtless and unfortunate. I feel offended by it. Not that he really cares.
”Bad theology, namely, historic Roman Catholic theology.” What a sweeping claim to just throw out there with no support or argumentation! The close minded ideology of Piper’s solo scriptura is frustrating, especially when you see the effect he has in Protestantism. Just remember that at the end of the day, sola scriptura is an ideology to safeguard against heresy, not a biblical commandment. Piper and others act like it’s a biblical command, so extreme at times that it seems rather a safeguard for their ego than a principle which can keep us in communion with God and truth.
As for religion: James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
I used to respect John Piper as a true teacher of God's word but he has compromised. He doesn't take a firm stance against mysticism, he avoids really answering the question. John Piper also associates with false teachers. He doesn't expose those false teachers. I dont trust John Piper. He's gone the way of the world.
Can he, or anyone else, give examples of individuals who don't have backgrounds in roman catholicism who can give guidance and insight into the contemplative way? I find much inspiration from Thomas Merton, St. John of the Cross and others when I look for direction in meditation..they all have catholic backgrounds. I'm not Catholic though. I'd love to hear other suggestions and widen my circle of reading.
Catholic doctrines of purgatory, indulgence, papal infallibility, and Catholic tradition having the same authoritative weight as the Holy Bible... these are the errors, the bad theology Piper simply says people do not need to embrace to enjoy spiritual fellowship with Father and jesus in the Holy Ghost. I would add infant baptism to that list, something Pier as a reformed theologian may still share with Catholics. Face it, God knows more about Himself than we do and more than many want to know!
Piper quotes 2 Cor 4:4 and then associates it with contemplative prayer? Is he saying that unbelievers' spiritual eyes can be opened by practicing contemplative prayer? CP darkens the mind even further to the glory of Christ and his gospel. This man is deluded.
This is a fudge. What he really means only he knows, but it's totally confusing, misleading and biased to his preferred practices. He has misused Scripture, which is typically postmodern, to say something that in the future can be affirmed/qualified, refuted/denied, in which ever way is needed. He also advocates Lectio Divina (in association with Beth Moore). This is christian mysticism, New Age, etc creeping into the Church. We need to be more educated and discerning. Avoid it at all costs.
John 14:6 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him. So Brandon why is it that catholics have to go to a priest to forgive there? Jesus was the way, not through a earthly priest, not through praying to Mary or any saint. A Christian is one who believes that Jesus's death on the cross was all we need to believe in for our salvation. Works will not get us there like catholicism teaches. Jesus did show love, but he also pointed out to the Sadducees ans Pharacees how wrong they were.
@@1699stu contemplative prayer does NOT produce a pantheistic worldview in its practicioner. you throw all those terms around and you don't really know the meaning of those terms. I've watched Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington's teaching videos, both are pioneers of centering prayer contemplative movement - none of them teach pantheism. ALL their materials are taken from the teachings of the Desert Fathers, the Orthodox hermits and anchorites, and the lectures of John Cassian. none of them teach pantheism. you are really daydreaming my friend...
Piper feels some of the heat Rome's desire for an earthly Kingdom now with Rome as the capitol. Jerusalem in Israel will be that capitol soon and I wonder if Piper acknowledges that?
@@faithoverfear6263 that doesn’t contradict mysticism. Also, knowledge of God comes from the knowledge of Self, and vice versa, cf. Calvin. Both kinds of knowledge can be, and should be, grounded Scripture. These things don’t necessarily contradict.
@@hokalos I agree with your last sentence but that's not the definition of mysticism. Knowledge of self comes from Scripture. True knowledge about God and self comes from Scripture, not mysticism.
@@faithoverfear6263 mysticism means total surrender to the lord. It is 'mystic' because it is away from the world, speaks the language of the heart, not of the thinking mind, which is a copy of the world. The thinking mind is the gate to the world, the heart is the gate to heaven.
There was this thing called the reformation, you might have missed it. Seriously, many protestants actually find a lot of good in Aquinas, and of course in Augustine. But, yes, if the question is Catholic theology in general, we think much of it is really unbiblical.
Aquinas was one of the first to promote Christians' involvement with war/military service. In my book, that alone says much about how far off one can go from what Christ preaches with bad theology. yes. bad. theology.
This is one of my problems with Protestantism: it assumes that for 1500 years (more or less) the Holy Spirit had failed to guide the Church aright. No one believed "sola fide" or "sola scriptura" for all those centuries of Christendom- but all of a sudden Martin Luther and John Calvin alight on the truth? It was the Church that Canonized scripture- not scripture that canonized the church (so to speak). And no one in their right mind could describe Aquinas' theology as "bad". It is clearly a work of genius that takes as its axioms the revealed truths of faith
Contemplative prayer is the door by which Satan enters your heart and is eventually made lord of your life and this mystic-teaching false prophet is his messenger
This is actually a solid answer from Piper, coming from an Arminian. I'm thrown off, very confused and troubled by some of these comments. It's as if many have assumed Christ came to make us psychopaths, completely disconnected from emotion. What a shame. To anyone who might be reading this, God doesn't hate your emotions; truly, he hates when you hide them from him. Irony of ironies that we'd be kept from this truth because of preference.
I don't get how we got here in a religion based on "a man of sorrows well aquainted with grief" and witnesses such as job, Jeremiah and David all of whom were super emotional.
Its modern christians problems :) well the christians of the past probably had other problems. As we see the pattern, is that complete resolution to a problem in this world is not possible before Christ comes...though it doesnt diminish the passion and action to do what God calls to, to live the truth. As long as sin exists, this would be the pattern...keeping us humble and in need of grace
Fruit of the reformed movement
Sadly, you are mistaken. See my comment above.
He isn’t . He’s Presbyterian reformed - Calvinist
I'm sorry, but John did not remotely address the modern Contemplative Prayer movement. My friend just started doing this and it is all about clearing your mind of all thoughts and reciting a mantra! This is Buddhist meditation and is in no way Christian. Using a phrase about Jesus does not turn an eastern religious practice into a Christian one. John, why do you leave the sheep in the dark?? A good shepherd who looks out for the flock would address contemplative prayer for what it really is. So many are falling into this dangerous movement and yet you are not stepping up as a leader to warn and protect the flock.
It si NOT an eastern religious practice. Read the Bible.
Good job John Piper. "Wait upon the Lord." "Be still and know that I am God." "Meditate by night, upon your bed, and tremble." "May the eyes of your heart be enlightened." "Pray without ceasing." "-That you would be able to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled to all the fullness of God." All of this is God himself describing Christian Contemplation. Meditation does NOT belong to Eastern mysticism, it belongs to God.
Sorry, but you are confused.
Exactly
@@philjones7351 no he isn't
There is more one kind of "Meditation". As I said, John Piper conflates them and causes confusion. This misleads many into pursuing the wrong kind imagining they are getting closer to God.
lol some would say that Christianity came from an eastern mystic
I much rather pray the biblical way. Paul wrote "What is it then?, I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also" I Cor. 14:15.
Prayer is conversation...communing....comparative of a husband and wife or a father and a child spending time together only we should be far more desirous to hear than speak...after all, He is God and we are not...
We do not need to ''listen'' with our mind or whatever nonsense Piper speaks about. Read your Bible if you want to hear God. He is not a man that He should be called upon just like a man to speak to us and have a conversation with us. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is Almighty God, the Great I Am. He is holy and righteous and He has spoken to us through His Word.
So you do not believe God still SPEAKS to His children by His Holy Spirit?
Second question, does this also mean God does not have personal and specific plans for each of us that scripture alone cannot reveal? If so how then is one 'called to' ministry as Paul stated; he was called by God to apostleship?
Amen!
His Child Yes I do. He has spoken to me that way but not through contemplative prayer or Roman Catholic mysticism and the VERY few times he has spoken to me like this it has always lined up with scripture. Check out the video of him doing it at the passion conference! And yeah, of course He plans for us but God can indeed use scripture to speak to us, not that He has to because His will is going to be carried out and He doesn't need to "speak" for that to happen. His will is done regardless.
The spiritual exercises of Ignatius Loyola that include contemplative prayer are programs with occult methodologies and techniques that are being introduced and practiced in churches, seminaries and youth rallies around the world. These exercises are taken from the old Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions and are the antithesis of the meditation presented in God’s Word. Other examples of these practices are the Walk to Emmaus, Cursillo, Centering Prayer, Ignatian Awareness, Examen, chanting, biblical imagination, prayers of discernment, and the Jesus Prayer.
Disguised Practice?
Most evangelicals would immediately reject divination practices like the Ouija board, for example, and see it as a device for contacting evil spirit entities, which the Bible condemns and calls an abomination (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). But the Catholic Spiritual Exercises, such as contemplative prayer, appear to the uneducated in God’s Word less threatening as it is disguised under church related activities.
The term “contemplative” means to think about something intently. So by the name, one would assume contemplative prayer to be earnest communication with God. However practitioners of these contemplative methods don’t do that. The goal of these practices is to get people beyond thinking and into the realm of “experiencing” God. A tutorial of this movement is The Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola which introduces occult visualization. Sadly, these visualized apparitions are demons that take actual forms and usher the practitioner into the world of the occult and away from God.
Not Biblical
Contemplative prayer is not Biblical prayer because mystical “spirituality” downplays the role of faith in the Scriptures. It exalts “transcendental” experiences that raises the person from the earthly experiences into a supposedly higher “spiritual” stand. It is based on “experiences” rather than Bible based doctrine. God has given His Word and His Holy Spirit to help His children know what is of Him and what is not. The scriptures clearly teach that we should “give attendance… to doctrine” (1 Timothy 4:13).
Faith that is based on mysticism is subjective and does not rely upon the absolute truths of God. The Word of God has been given to us as a light the leads us to the path of righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Trusting in feelings and experiences is not Biblical, we must “walk by faith, not by sight” (2 Corinthians 5:7). And “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17).
We do not see any of the apostles, prophets or disciples ever using contemplative prayer to connect with God. On the contrary all sorcery and divination were fully condemned (1 Samuel 15:10) and for practicing these evils, the Jews were led into captivity and destroyed (2 Kings 17:17; Jeremiah 14:14; Malachi 3:5). And the apostle Paul lists sorcery as one of many sinful practices that rob people from having eternal life: “Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife . . . and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:19-21).
I personally disagree
I'm a Protestant and have used the Jesus prayer much to my benefit. For anyone wondering, usually when in moments of high anxiety, depression, or distress I will repeat "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" either out loud or silently in my mind, however many times it takes. It has calmed and centered me several times.
You have no idea what contemplative prayer is or have it’s woven into one’s soul or how it brings one closer to Jesus. God is spirit and he wants YOU to pray inspirit and in truth… that my friend is contemplative prayer.
@@gregc7517 Contemplative prayer is not just “contemplating while you pray.” The Bible instructs us to pray with our minds (1 Corinthians 14:15), so, clearly, prayer does involve contemplation. However, praying with your mind is not what “contemplative prayer” has come to mean. Contemplative prayer has slowly increased in practice and popularity along with the rise of the emerging church movement-a movement which embraces many unscriptural ideas and practices. Contemplative prayer is one such practice.
Contemplative prayer begins with “centering prayer,” a meditative practice where the practitioner focuses on a word and repeats that word over and over for the duration of the exercise. The purpose is to clear one’s mind of outside concerns so that God’s voice may be more easily heard. After the centering prayer, the practitioner is to sit still, listen for direct guidance from God, and feel His presence.
Although this might sound like an innocent exercise, this type of prayer has no scriptural support whatsoever. In fact, it is just the opposite of how prayer is defined in the Bible. “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.” (Philippians 4:6). “In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete” (John 16:23-24). These verses and others clearly portray prayer as being comprehendible communication with God, not an esoteric, mystical meditation.
Contemplative prayer, by design, focuses on having a mystical experience with God. Mysticism, however, is purely subjective, and does not rely upon truth or fact. Yet the Word of God has been given to us for the very purpose of basing our faith, and our lives, on Truth (2 Timothy 3:16-17). What we know about God is based on fact; trusting in experiential knowledge over the biblical record takes a person outside of the standard that is the Bible.
Contemplative prayer is no different than the meditative exercises used in Eastern religions and New Age cults. Its most vocal supporters embrace an open spirituality among adherents from all religions, promoting the idea that salvation is gained by many paths, even though Christ Himself stated that salvation comes only through Him (John 14:6). Contemplative prayer, as practiced in the modern prayer movement, is in opposition to biblical Christianity and for that reason I believe it should definitely be avoided.
While I agree with everything he said I can’t like this video because he doesn’t get to the heart of what this question is getting at. I don’t think he knows what modern-day “contemplative” Prayer is which is much worse than just contemplating on God’s Word (which of course is good). But this is what Satan is busy doing hijacking the truth and using good sounding words to deceive the gullible into doing wickedness! If your prayer involves MINDLESSNESS, breathing techniques, repetitive patterns, or yoga poses, repent and quit doing it immediately.
I think he knows. But coming out against it point blank would go against some of his (prominent and popular) peers. Maybe he doesn't want to do that.
reciting MANTRA is part of ancient Israelite/Hebrew practice ! mantra in its original meaning is sacred words that connect you with the Divine -- in the Israelite tradition that is the words of Torah, the Psalms, the utterances of the prophets of Israel. so when someone is reciting Psalm 23 in a heartfelt and focused way he is reciting mantra.
It is the Holy Spirit's job to enlighten the truth of the Bible, in Spirit & in truth, for He is God & we are not!
The Holy Spirit also leads & guides us in prayer.
So what do we want, God the Holy Spirit, who is the Helper, or some man-made method??
Though of course, it is always good to meditate & study God's word.
The Holy Spirit always leads us to Jesus & Jesus Christ leads us to our Heavenly Father !!! Amen.
Subtle deceptive satanic practice. The devil mascarads as an angel of light.
I find contemplative prayer as a tool. Also that I find outward prayer as useful and sometimes I am prompted by Holy Spirit to pray outward things while in contemplative prayer when the Spirit leads me to. Honestly, why is this so confusing. I’m not Catholic but am a born again believer in Jesus. I find contemplative prayer an excellent way to have communion with Holy Spirit.
Its because modern christians are born into a different culture that has primed a different set of state, mainly, left brain usage and misuse of rationality. The temptation, in this age, then is to excessively use "left brain" function only and neglect the abstract more unfamiliar part of the brain/body system. Sin exists in every era, it just adjusts accordingly, just like we have prodigal son and the older brother who are both just as lost...in every spectrum of life, sin would try to sneak in
It's time to take away our eyes from men and put it on God and keep it there!For in the last days many(even prominent men)shall fall away from faith and follow doctine of devils leading many astray.Breathren if it's not found in the bible let it not be found in you either,no matter who is telling you how wonderful it is.Jesus said my sheep knows my voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow!That stranger might even be a well known preacher.Always listen to the voice behind the voice!
FEAR is behind your words, not Love and Faith
Christian mysticism is exactly that: putting your eyes, mind and heart unto the Lord
So are you saying that simply resting in the presence of God is not in the Bible
Through the finished work of Jesus Christ that He accomplished in His death & resurrection on the Cross for us, we as Christians, have complete & utter access to the Father!
Why do we need Roman Catholic or other religious, rote practises, to make us more "spiritual?"
When Jesus cried out "It is finished."
It is finished. Fully & completely accomplished !!!
John 19 : 30
When He had received the drink,
Jesus said, "It is finished."
With that, He bowed His head
and gave up His spirit.
Hallelujah !!! Amen.
AMEN!!!
St John of the the Cross and St Teresa of Avila, great teachers of mystical treasures! You are right!
I need a verse or at least an example of someone praying like that in the Bible in the Spirit.
there is none!
@@johndisalvo6283 Ahem. St. Paul? Jesus transfiguring? Ringing a bell for ya, bud?
@@happynow2926 Paul was an apostle...you're NOT, bud! Your bell definitely has a crack in it. Holy men of God wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures CANNOT be amended just because you're feeling contemplative today
@@johndisalvo6283 Sorry that your faulty and stupid religion centered mindset got butthurt but St. Paul was not just an apostle, he was THE apostle who lost his head for all that he advocated.
@@johndisalvo6283 If you've ever bothered to read the Bible you may or may not be idolizing and kissing up to, you can definitely see St. Paul going up into the astral realm, seeing things with his "eyes of the heart", and practicing his mystical abilities thanks to the Holy Spirit moving in him, which may or may not have included contemplative prayer which, btw, IS a well kept catholic tradition.
What he is describing is not contemplative prayer ... The scripture BE STILL .. and KNOW THAT I AM GOD, is. Keeping our mouths running, speaking to God, is what we usually think of as prayer .. and yet we often don't intentionally come before the Lord in silence . inner and outer silence .. to just present ourselves as Living Sacrifices . to listen in silence to Him. The Protestant and Reformed teaching is utterly wrong in this regard .. and I personally believe that it is arrogant.
Please beware.
Contemplative/Centered prayer is nothing more than Christianized paganism (as in yoga or T.M.) - but with a subtle twist. It seduces you into using Hindu styled mantras and breathing techniques with biblical words or phrases; then fools you into believing you are invoking the Spirit of Christ.
Repetitious prayers (mantras) or breathing techniques are found nowhere in Scripture.
Jesus said, “Use not vain repetition as the heathen do.” If the heathen do it - you can be sure Satan is behind it!
You are completely mistaken. Christians from a very early period used what is now known as the "Jesus Prayer", which involves the repetition of the Holy Name in order to focus all of ones attention on the loving presence of God in Jesus. How can there be something wrong in being aware of God in Christ in the present moment through the use of certain "mantras"?
Dear bayreuth79,
Please read the following carefully...
Catholic and modern New Age promoter Thomas Merton (deceased) stated,
"There is no doubt that the primary influence or fuel for contemplative prayer came from “Fourth century hermits who abandoned the cities of the pagan world to live in solitude.”
Having fled from secular society into the wildernesses of the near East, these hermits would later become known as the "Desert Fathers".
Merton goes on to write, “What the fathers sought most of all was their own true-self in Christ … they sought a way to God that was uncharted and free chosen, not inherited from others who had mapped it out beforehand.”
First question...
Where in all the teachings of Jesus does He tell Christians to abandon the world, and live in solitude as Hermits?
Jesus said,
"Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations …" (Matt.28:19)
"Ye shall be witnesses …unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)
The Desert Fathers were in error from the beginning. They disobeyed a direct command from the Lord Jesus Himself, so what do we expect would follow?
Second question...
"The WAY" to God was already "mapped out" by the Lord and His Apostles in the Holy Scriptures; so why did they need another "map?"
Justin O’Brien seduces Christians with this...
“Hesychasm, a spiritual tradition that dates back to the third century, uses the JESUS FORMULA as one of its forms of inner prayer. A Hesychast is someone who lets the memory of Jesus combine with their breathing. As the monk Nicephorus suggests, ‘Collect your mind, lead it into the path of the breath along which the air enters in, constrain it to enter the heart together with the inhaled air, and keep it there. Give it the following prayer: Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me. Let this be its constant occupation, never to be abandoned.'"
He goes on to write…
"For a Christian practicing Yoga, the above description is not merely similar to, but the same as japa yoga. The constant intonation of a sacred sound: mantram is commonly referred to as japa."
There we have yet another example of vain repetition; but can we see these repetitious mantram prayers as God does: even apart from their satanic origin?
An earthly father is delighted with his baby’s first spoken word: let’s say that word is “Dadda.” The baby says “Dadda, Dadda, Dadda,” and nothing could please the parent more. However, if at the age of sixteen, the boy or girl is still saying the same word, “Dadda” - over and over again; something is seriously wrong!
What kind of conversation could God have with someone who is constantly chanting, “Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus” or, “Come Lord, come Lord, come Lord?”
Once again, the key to this whole deception can be found in the phrase, “the JESUS FORMULA.”
The contemplative/centered/repetitious prayer movement hinges on Eastern based formulas and techniques that are so completely contrary to sound doctrine, they can only result in shipwreck for anyone foolish enough to apply them.
MERTON'S LEGACY...
“During his last years, Merton became deeply interested in Asian religions, particularly Zen Buddhism, and in promoting East-West dialogue. After several meetings with Merton during his trip to the Far East in1968, the Dali Lama praised him for having a more profound understanding of Buddhism than any other Christian he had known. It was during a conference on ‘East-West monastic dialogue ’ (an ecumenical council of Catholics and Buddhist monks) that Merton died in Bangkok; the victim of accidental electrocution.” Since then, Thomas Merton’s Eastern mystical, and pagan influence has continued to grow steadily: currently it is found in Catholic, Protestant , and many so-called Evangelical churches as well.
To my brothers or sisters in Christ whom I love dearly, and are reading this account, I say, “Beware: serpents still whisper to any and all who will listen.”
MORTON KELSEY
Episcopal priest and author of, “Other Side of Silence: The Guide to Christian Meditation.” His books are acclaimed by “Spiritual Directors” (whatever you do, stay away from those people); and include such erroneous insights as,
“You can find most of the New Age practices in the depth of Christianity.”
And,
“I believe the Holy One lives in EVERY soul.”
Could there be a better description of New Age panentheism , and its total disregard for Scriptural authority and truth? -
"Many are called but few are chosen." (Matt.22:14)
Only the FEW who receive The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by faith are called "the sons and daughters of God." (John1:12)
God dwells only in the quickened spirits (not souls) of those who are truly born again. (See 1Cor.15:45, Rom. 8: 16, 1John 3:24, 4:13, 5:12)
“Kelsey was greatly influenced by psychologist Carl Jung, often combining various religious practices with Jung’s teachings. In realizing the influence of Jung upon Kelsey, it is important to note that Jung believed he had a spirit guide named *PHILEMON. The influence of Jung upon Morton Kelsey is quite evident in the book Healing and Christianity, as he liberally and favorably appeals to Jung on multiple occasions.” (From Apprising Ministries' website.)
*Spirit guides/evil spirits often use Biblical names to heighten the deception.
Enough said!
For much more information go to www.hurtsatan.com
What John Piper is describing here is great! The contemplative prayer you're referring to is also known as "lectio divina," which is huge on having God speak to you. Sadly DesiringGod.org teaches a form of lectio divina as okay, so it would appear as though Piper isn't being exactly honest in this video
Amen Ken, you hit the nail on the head (regardless of what the rest say). I would add that here Piper is being disingenuous - he says "Way yes to contemplative prayer as I've just defined it", but his definition is not what is meant by the words "contemplative prayer". Contemplative prayer has a specific meaning; when people use that term, they are referring to exactly what you just described, an Eastern/Hindu-based set of practices that are not Biblically supported; what Piper is describing is just prayer, which we should all do deeply and according to the guidelines of Scripture. He can't just redefine something and then say that according to that definition, it's a-ok. Words have meaning, and meaning matters. God bless you.
Ken, I agree it CAN be...that is why cults adopted the concept. Only they contemplate within themselves with themselves. Or from time to time, with demons.
God has some very clear guidelines for meditation and prayer and contemplation...first one must be born again. Second one must recognize the carnal mind is enmity with God, meaning it cannot be trusted to grasp TRUTH.
Third, that the Spirit was given to lead and guide us into all truth, to counsel and to instruct and to correct us...
And last but NOT LEAST we re to try or test the spirits predominantly through scripture. God will never speak contradictory.
He states clarly that some in the Roman Catholic adopted some bad theology....so he is pointing out that some teaching under this umbrella term is false, heresy and deceptive.
But since we live in a world of information we need to not toss the term....but take the time when speaking to so many, to clarify it...that is IMHO what John Piper did here...
Remember this is just a snip of an interview...
MASS CONFUSION.
Haha that's what happened when the priest forgot the words during the sacrament of communion
This feeds the confusion, brother Piper! Contemplative prayer as used today, with the New Age connotation, is NOT biblical.
That's why his answer is PRECISE. He talked of the puritan type off praying
Most reformers were former catholic priests-that’s where contemplative prayer came from.
And that book is one of earliest that I read about Christian Meditation or Contemplative Prayer. The practice is far from new ... even going back to Jesus' own teachings when he was on earth.
Why then did Jesus warn about "Vain repetition like the heathen"? Which is exactly what "Contemplative prayer" is. Christian meditation is reading the scriptures and pondering on them, not saying mindless mantras.
What he reflects here makes me very much sense. its about a contemplative approach to the word of God and arriving at the sweet knowledge of God and thereby having a deeper communion with God. Those of you want to explore more, please read , "The Ladder of the Monk and 12 meditations by Guigo II, a 12th century monk. Thanks
how did Jesus teach us to pray?
Not only in one way, however Contemplative or prayer in silence was certainly foremost in his teaching.
The Psalms are best chanted, as is still done in synagogues and liturgical churches, it is there where they become the most profound and transformative.
The problem is not whether we sing, chant or say the Psalms, or any other scriptures. That is fine. The problem is in the hypnotic repetition of a word, short phrase or prayer in order to blank out conscious thought and perhaps enter an altered state of consciousness. "Contemplative prayer" in this sense is actually a kind of repackaged Transcendental Meditation and is anti-biblical, anti-Christian and spiritually very dangerous. As St Theresa found. It seems the poor woman's hours of meditation made her open to severe demonic attacks that she believed were from God.
may we pray without ceasing Lord with the power of your spirit!
@ascendingthehills Cynthia Bourgeault, and also the ecumenical Taize community, as well as many in the Eastern Orthodox churches. Contrary to Mr. Piper's put down of traditional Christianity, I don't believe you will find the depth your heart seeks in any sort of fundamentalistic/evangelical spirituality. I was there for over 50 years, and what I have found, especially in the Eastern church, since I left the fundamentalist world, is infinitely far beyond anything that I ever was taught.
Look at how Protestantism is riven with schisms - "You think you have the truth because you have the book" - this is what Jesus said to the pharisees, presumably shaking his head sadly . How we love to point out 'error' - even Paul said "we see through a glass darkly " There is a depressing self righteousness and mean spiritedness about the comments under this video which makes me want go in the opposite direction and I've been a Christian for more than 40 years. Does it not make you wonder that when Jesus pointed the way to God he didn't say ' look to the religious the leaders' he said look at the children..
Right or wrong, why are we still taking swipes at the Catholics. It's fine to have opinions or make observations, but there always seems to be an undertone of dislike whenever the reformed, reference Catholics and the ways they seek God. Does not promote unity in the body of Christ. Borders on hatred. God is love.
The right prayers will always receive answers.. So all this arguments isn't it. If you prayer and God answer you it mean u did something right. Theology isn't helping anyone. Just bringing division in a body Christ said should be one. Be united people of God
... and love one another - this was His highest commandment!
I want to also add that Mr. Piper, for all his religious posturing, knows nothing whatsoever about Contemplative prayer. He has somehow confused it with something that the Puritans and/or other groups that have no connection to the early church or the desert fathers/mothers ever taught, and which remain vital and alive even today in the Eastern Church. It would be better and less embarrassing for Mr. Piper if he discussed topics about which he might have some knowledge.
Has John piper lost the plot or something????? He endorses contemplative prayer??? What is going on??????????
Daisy, You don't say if you are familiar with the practice of Comtemplative Prayer (I assume you are because of your statement), but it should be clear that Mr. Piper has no idea what he is talking about. Certainly his knowledge of Contemplative Prayer is utterly lacking. Sadly a hatred of Catholics and even Eastern Orthodox is not uncommon among many prostestants whose foundation is fear and reaction, rather than love and response.
I don't think he understands what the culture is doing with these "prayers".
Catholic Theology is not bad theology. It's just different. It comes from a different worldview with a different set of assumptions.
I am assuming that Piper is referring to the Catholic monk, Thomas Merton, who tried to marry Zen Buddhist contemplation with monastic tradition of prayer, silence and solitude, when he disparages Catholicism's contemplation theology.
He's actually referring to lectio divina commonly used in the Catholic Church. Sadly Piper leans close to this mysticism as well
As Christians we must keep in mind Satan twists and distorts truth. It has been problematic in Christian teaching to default to the other end of the spectrum. Piper, IMHO tries to maintain the truth by not swinging like a pendulum to the other side...
Example, even the term mysticism has been attached to some Christian teaching like the rainbow has been attached to the lesbian and gay movement. Do we toss the rainbow and allow them to pervert it's true message?
Contemplation, communing in the spirit with God, revelation communications from God, these were first found in the Garden as Adam walked with and communed with God before the fall.
Some find it difficult to grasp the restoration of that relationship was bought and paid for by Jesus. We must not toss the baby with the bath water by allowing false religions to redefine or steal terminology as if it's is theirs alone...we MUST make sure we teach it accurately.
Then when young people Google Contemplation or Contemplative prayer rather than only finding heresy like this Catholic teaching they find it taught accurately....
"Contemplative prayer or centering prayer is the child of God silencing his own mind to listen for the voice of the Spirit of God within their born again spirit...and then testing what they 'hear' by scripture and their trusted leadership...to commune with SELF
God was the originator of that relationship. We need to take it back...
Piper lead his congregation to use Lectio Divinia to pray. There was push back by the congregation. He apologized and removed this mystical stuff from his website. This is not of God...Piper knows it is not of God. This is why he apologized and removed it from the website. This is not the first wrong move and wont be the last for Piper. He is slipping downward toward False teachers....
@@pocahontasreese1423 it was the RELIGIOUS Jews that was uncomfortable and rejected the teaching and ministry of Christ.
"Contemplation is a gift from God and unconditional love is the full development of the grace of contemplation ... the biggest illusion that we can have about God is to have a small idea of God .... contemplation is the necessity to practice virtue ...... you have to have the conviction of being loved by God in order to keep the commandments, and that comes through contemplative prayer, in which faith in the mysteries begins to move into the experience of Christ's Love, in and beyond the mysteries. Many of us get stuck on the eternals of our religion, when in actual fact contemplative prayer would open us to the realization of who we really are ... trust in God begins to grow in the silence and solitude of regular periods of contemplative prayer ..... centering prayer is totally in the service of finding out who we are, who God is, and acting accordingly, not in our own strength, but in the power of the Holy Spirit." .....
(excerpt of 'Who is called a contemplative' by Thomas Keating, UA-cam)
You know this guy taught that being saved meant being saved from God by God for God. Really? Being saved from God? While this statement is consistent w his (man-made theology), it should immediately be seen as contrary to the revelation of who God is, as found in the Word of God. Read John's letters and you will be reminded of John's proclamation that God is Love. Yes, many will experience God's judgement for their sins, but to assert that salvation is being "saved from God", that is being saved from Unconditional Love Himself, is anti-Biblical, and quite frankly, nuts. Anything else spoken by this guy should be suspect. Further, any theological system in which it makes sense to assert we are being "saved from God" rather than being saved from our sins (together with the consequences of our sins) is not the true Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You say we are saved from the consequences of our sins. What is the consequences? Death! How? By the Holy judgment of a good and loving God. We are saved from God in the sense that we will not bear His wrath.
Seek understanding.
@@briancassada3259 Agreed. The reason sin has any "power" to condemn us is because its abominably wicked before a God who is Holy and perfectly righteous in nature. We must be saved from God's very own justice against sin. Being saved "BY God, FROM God, FOR God" is a bold theological statement intended to make people consider the bigger picture, viewing salvation in light of God's complete sovereignty and Holiness. Ultimately it all comes down to the Lord.
Wow, it is sad when you stop to think that Piper doesn't seem to know that contemplative prayer is straight out of the new age mystical playbook, in which the proponent empties his mind, chants a mantra, and looks within himself to try and discover a higher plane of consciousness. Very sad, indeed.
The contemplatives prayer movement if you wanna call it that that’s become a , Kind of trendy prayer alternative Or prayer plus ! Is to be avoided like the plague we are not meant to naval gaze and Finder in a core this is nothing but mysticism is started by a guy called Thomas Merton who was a mystic monk enough said
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1Tim. 4:16. I believe that Piper forgot this... Please care all brothers, we are on last dangerous days. Back to the bible only (2 Tim. 3:1)
"I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also" I Cor. 14:15.
can't we stick dogmatically to the Bible and still be meditative and reflective and contemplative on christ and his word and all of his handiwork all around us ?and have moments of sound silence and stillness for deep fellowship with god and to enjoys his divine presence ? as long as we stay to the holy scriptures and the truth ?is this not what the scriptures teach ?2corinthians 3:18 and the psalmist says stand in awe and sin not !and commune with your own heart upon your bed and be still!and tons of other scriptures ! I am with you on not going into catholic methods and weird teachings on contemplation and stillness or new age garbage getting into the church ! and just because other religious people abuse or pervert these things don't mean that we can't walk in these truths of true contemplation and meditation and the conscious presence of god and stay glued to the sound doctrines of the Bible
Most of the 'women' preachers' are encouraging & supporting this it is NOT the Puritan Prayers spoken of as Piper is referring to here..Actually John Piper has changed his feelings toward this and took off his web site supporting it !!! Thank God
He's ticked at those who go to the catholic mystic tradition? Contemplative prayer is catholic and that's why they go there. Now, I have no idea why he side-stepped the question. CP is an emptying of the mind and repeating words or names. Strange man, Piper is.
This doesn't help people in the new age discern the difference between the Biblical definition of contemplation and the new age definition of contemplation and it doesn't help them understand the difference between Biblical prayer and meditation and eastern prayer and meditation. Please do some more research and dig deeper and give a more defined synopsis of the difference, because this video just sounds like your approving any prayer, contemplation and meditation as long as it's not the catholic form. Not
really helpful for anyone needing to know more. The new age have all the same terms as Christians, but all different meanings.
It is possible to exalt the Bible without understanding it. But when I read it and understand that it is God's love letter to me, I worship God who wrote those words. And it is important that we understand that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Spanish is interesting as it says "En el principio era el Verbo, y el Verbo era con Dios, y el Verbo era Dios."
The Word is Jesus Christ the Son of God and part of the Trinity. The Bible is not a love letter to you. Jesus came to bring a sword and to separate truth from fiction. I think you are missing a lot of understand and discernment.
@ascendingthehills Look at the Conferences of John Cassian .. dealing with the teaching of the Desert Fathers and Mothers. That is Eastern Orthodoxy .. and long before the Catholic Church broke with Eastern Orthodoxy, contemplative prayer was being practiced by the Monks and Nuns. You may be interested in a book titled The Cloud of Unknowing .. but I would recommend the Conferences of John Cassian .. .you might like that.
Not a great answer...the type of prayer identied by Piper is not contemplative but devotional. I'm not criticizing the form of prayer he speaks of, just noting it doesn't answer the question. Also, contemplative prayer exists outside Catholicism (at least as defined by Protestants like Piper) as it's roots can be traced at least to Origen.
Contemplative prayer assumes that spiritual truth can be found within you intuitively. That is dangerous. The Spirit is not within you unless first it is put there by the Word which is outside you and doesn't exist because of you. Contemplative prayer seeks to undermine the Church and the Scriptures but uses both with in a word salad way they are used as supporting CP.
No, the truth is opposite. it is the thinking mind that is dangerous, because it is driven by the world (conditioned) it is exactly by becoming humble, accepting that one does not understand the glory of God, that God can enter in our heart. Becoming humble is what contemplative prayer is all about. If we practice religion with the thinking mind only we can make mistakes like IS did. When we know our heart that isn't possible
@@blackowl-jx2oq You’ve got the carriage before the horse. The thinking mind is the moving spirit. Humans are one thing, mind, body, and spirit. The problem with mysticism is that it truncates mind and creates a dualism between mind and body. That’s why mysticism opposes the atonement of Christ. It is the mind that has formed the world based on it’s recognition that there is an outward nature. Name one thing that has been made by humans that was not first in the mind. Granted it has created some very bad things. But I think the Industrial Revolution was a good thing. Don’t you?
@@almilligan7317 mind is not equal to thinking. Mind is first of all consciousness. Thinking consists of words which are abstract concepts. All our ideas are derived from our environment. Our culture. This is what makes us do good things and bad things, but we have no clarity on the nature of things and actions beyond cultural norms
Mysticism is about unification of our being, not division and it is the result of purification of sin. It is sin that breaks our being into conflicting parts
@@blackowl-jx2oq The mystics do not teach that Jesus’ Cross is the atoning work of from God, that you need the Cross for Union with God. Jesus is the Cosmic Christ not the Son of God who gives himself for the life of the world. Such theology is irrational to the mystics. In that regard they are like the Greeks in Paul’s rebuttal, the cross is foolishness to the Greeks and a Stumbling block to Jews.
There are at least two definitions of "Contemplation". It seems that John Piper is conflating Biblical contemplation - studying and actively pondering on the scriptures - with the unbiblical and occult version which involves blanking out one’s thoughts by a kind of self-hypnosis through endless repetition of a word or phrase. Jesus Himself warned against doing this “Vain repetition like the heathen.”
Even if it’s in the form of a prayer or His name, it does not glorify God. Instead, it is a modernised version of the practices the Desert Fathers learned from non Christian mystics they met, such as Buddhist and Sufis. Spiritually it is the same as Transcendental Meditation and with similar dangers as it lays one open to demonic influence and even contacting another spirit masquerading as God, the Holy Spirit, an angel, “Jesus” etc.
As it says in Deuteronomy 12:
29 The Lord your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by enquiring about their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.’ 31 You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshipping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates.
God HATES it, so DON'T do it!!!
This was posted in 2010 so I pray that Piper has changed his heart toward the matter of contemplative prayer AKA...mysticism/paganism...He also endorsed Beth Moore around this time and appeared w/her at Passion conference recently...He says 'NOW' its alright for women to teach/preach but not hold office over Church...Paul says 'I forbid a woman......... even though I have grown in areas from Desiring God...I do see Piper allows his flesh into many decisions..If Beth Moore was an ugly lady OR if a man was condoning women preachers & teachers...Piper would have none of it!!! Guess we can learn something from Piper....>>>and that is , anyone no matter how solid or strong they appear can be tempted and turn from the 'old paths'..and that is a warning to us all..
without contemplative prayer Christianity doesn't exist and the church becomes shallow, empty, lifeless. The Lord can not be known through the thinking mind. And ofcourse women should preach, as they are most often wiser on the language of the heart than men. Jesus teaching is the teaching of the heart.
Why has the church suddenly started doing this? Isnt it natural for the born again believer filled with the Holy Spirit to open their bible and ask God to speak to them? This is a new age practice full of deception inviting familiar spirirs to enter them. The great falling away from biblical truth is happening.
Hi Daisy, So very pleased to know that you practice Contemplative Prayer,as I do. When you mention that you were taught by the Trappists, I wonder if your practice developed from the teaching of Thomas Keating? Centering Prayer was my first introduction to Contemplative Prayer, and it has become one of the most important parts of my day. I have experienced profound growth and healing as God has most wonderfully met me in the silence. Peace to you on your journey!!
Good job, LifterWill! Keep at it, and let no one get you down on the topic of contemplation and communion with God. As long as the intention is to love, glorify and enjoy God, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Doreen Virtue thinks contemplative prayer isn't a good idea. - hmm... one person is right - I know God says be still and know I am God so this is encouraging of scripture.
there is NO such thing as "mind emptying" meditation in eastern traditions. christians seriously misunderstand the eastern practice. what is being emphasized by eastern meditation is sharpening and purifying the human awareness/consciousness. awareness/consciousness is a faculty that is above the natural and fleshly mind, that when trained and purified properly will sensitize a person to the Divine Presence.
@ascendingthehills Unfortunately no. Its due to the way church history evolved. Its first known reference was in the 3rd century (St. Anthony) to 6th century. The Church split into Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox chuches in the 11th century. And the protestant church later split from Roman Catholic churches in the 16th century. I guess we protestants didn't import any of the contemplative traddition from the split. Try Jeanne Guyon also, she's well read by the Wesley & Watchman Nee
Thank you soo much Pastor John
why does he have to say "bad roman catholic theology?" it was the RC Church that gave you the Bible as it is today - was that bad theology? The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ himself when he chose peter to be the Rock upon which he will build MY church. The Son of God founded the Church - not Luther or Calvin,or Knox, or Zwingli, or Joseph Smith, or Charles Russel or John Piper or the other 1000's of different self appointed popes!
God is God. I know Catholics Venerate the Virgin Mary, And the Saints. I have read 7 Storey Mountain, Dark Soul of the Night and not once did they mention Mary. So you take what you like and leave what you dont.
When he talks about the whole underlying bordering mysticism that comes to this, "Roman Catholic Historic Bad Theology" really isn't the enemy here, I understand where he is coming from though and I have my strong disagreements with that community. Universalism/Unitarianism/ New Age.
Erich. I do as well...but there are many today falling for it because it is a spiritual truth that has been twisted and it would be best if we take back the truth aspect of contemplative prayer..communing with the Spirit of God within the born again believer and help lead some who are truly desiring God away from the hereses.
I decided several years ago to embrace the terminology of mysticism and contemplative prayer in order to present it accurately from scriptural bases...rather than defaulting to some's decision to avoid it thus not teaching it's precious truth at all...
Meditate is in the scriptures many times and often comes from Hebrew words meaning imagine, think, contemplate, listen....ect. So if we reject it rather than highlight it's true meaning we are 'surrendering the rainbow'.
By that I mean allowing sinners to hijack truth and redefine it...man, politicians do this all the time...they hijack words from their true origin and formulate them to some 'new interpretation'.
Make sense?
Christians would do well to get the internet covered in apologetics that speak to 'Contemplative Prayer' from the Biblical perspective...that speak to 'Meditation' from the Biblical perspective..
One of the best teachings I have heard on contemplative prayer was done by one of these heretics....and I thought, how powerful this would be for believers to grasp IF ONLY HE PRESENTED IT THROUGH THE TRUTH OF JESUS SHED BLOOD...instead he is leading them to secular humanism with a dash of universalism....
How sad.....
Brian .. it's Will from Facebook .. the XXG group. Mr. Piper is coming from a protestant viewpoint, not a classical Christian viewpoint or anything that the Church Fathers might ever have taught. I find it regrettable that the form of "Christianity" spoken of and embraced by so many westerners in the fundamentalist/evangelical church is so very different from what are beloved gifts from the early church; the desert fathers and mothers, and Christianity as it existed before the great schism.
As usual Piper doesn't even know what the term "contemplative prayer" even means. I wish he would stop trying to invent answers to these questions! He's making a fool of himself and making people thinking it's ok to do new age prayer!
As a (currently non-practicing) catholic, I find his comment about "bad catholic theology" to be thoughtless and unfortunate. I feel offended by it. Not that he really cares.
”Bad theology, namely, historic Roman Catholic theology.” What a sweeping claim to just throw out there with no support or argumentation! The close minded ideology of Piper’s solo scriptura is frustrating, especially when you see the effect he has in Protestantism. Just remember that at the end of the day, sola scriptura is an ideology to safeguard against heresy, not a biblical commandment. Piper and others act like it’s a biblical command, so extreme at times that it seems rather a safeguard for their ego than a principle which can keep us in communion with God and truth.
Excellent said!
As for religion: James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Stop mentioning catholics your answers is 59pecent
I used to respect John Piper as a true teacher of God's word but he has compromised. He doesn't take a firm stance against mysticism, he avoids really answering the question. John Piper also associates with false teachers. He doesn't expose those false teachers. I dont trust John Piper. He's gone the way of the world.
excellent word, Mr. Piper.
Can he, or anyone else, give examples of individuals who don't have backgrounds in roman catholicism who can give guidance and insight into the contemplative way? I find much inspiration from Thomas Merton, St. John of the Cross and others when I look for direction in meditation..they all have catholic backgrounds. I'm not Catholic though. I'd love to hear other suggestions and widen my circle of reading.
If your still looking try A.W. Tozer he's writings are pure evangelical mysticism
Catholic doctrines of purgatory, indulgence, papal infallibility, and Catholic tradition having the same authoritative weight as the Holy Bible... these are the errors, the bad theology Piper simply says people do not need to embrace to enjoy spiritual fellowship with Father and jesus in the Holy Ghost. I would add infant baptism to that list, something Pier as a reformed theologian may still share with Catholics. Face it, God knows more about Himself than we do and more than many want to know!
Piper quotes 2 Cor 4:4 and then associates it with contemplative prayer? Is he saying that unbelievers' spiritual eyes can be opened by practicing contemplative prayer? CP darkens the mind even further to the glory of Christ and his gospel. This man is deluded.
@oswaldng2009 Awesome and true!! I am glad you posted this.
Best answear ever!
CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER = MYSTICISM
SOLI DEO GLORIA
This is a fudge. What he really means only he knows, but it's totally confusing, misleading and biased to his preferred practices. He has misused Scripture, which is typically postmodern, to say something that in the future can be affirmed/qualified, refuted/denied, in which ever way is needed. He also advocates Lectio Divina (in association with Beth Moore). This is christian mysticism, New Age, etc creeping into the Church. We need to be more educated and discerning. Avoid it at all costs.
John 14:6 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him. So Brandon why is it that catholics have to go to a priest to forgive there? Jesus was the way, not through a earthly priest, not through praying to Mary or any saint. A Christian is one who believes that Jesus's death on the cross was all we need to believe in for our salvation. Works will not get us there like catholicism teaches. Jesus did show love, but he also pointed out to the Sadducees ans Pharacees how wrong they were.
Eddy, I am curious to know why you condemn Mysticism? I'm not sure that you actually know what Mysticism is.
Con prayer is designed to change the way we see the world by training our minds to become pantheistic and to make spiritual things relative.
NONSENSE ! you don't know anything about contemplative prayer and its spiritual benefits
@@adisaargani836 yes I do Richard rohr says it best when he talks about the contemplative overcoming dualistic thinking.
@@1699stu contemplative prayer does NOT produce a pantheistic worldview in its practicioner. you throw all those terms around and you don't really know the meaning of those terms. I've watched Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington's teaching videos, both are pioneers of centering prayer contemplative movement - none of them teach pantheism. ALL their materials are taken from the teachings of the Desert Fathers, the Orthodox hermits and anchorites, and the lectures of John Cassian. none of them teach pantheism.
you are really daydreaming my friend...
@@adisaargani836 exactly this term desert fathers is actually the Gnostic's of Alexandria
@@1699stu stupid comment.
There must be a reason that you find his comment offensive considering that you aren't practicing.
Another Jesus, another gospel!!!! What does the Word of God tell us about that?
What nonsense is he talking about???
He got the last part right...Complication...
Piper feels some of the heat Rome's desire for an earthly Kingdom now with Rome as the capitol. Jerusalem in Israel will be that capitol soon and I wonder if Piper acknowledges that?
Thank you Sir.
@ascendingthehills Look at Dallas Willard's "Hearing God" for an evangelicals approach.
WE MUST ALL REALIZE THE KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS WITHIN
Yeah. I thought all Roman Catholic theology is bad.
What did he say?
Another gospel, flee from this esoteric new age garbage and read your Bible and FILL YOUR MIND with TRUTH!
Das good!!
SHIVA'S THIRD EYE REVEALS THE TRUTH
Piper could not avoid using the only accurate word: “mystical”.
Is there anything wrong with (Christian) mysticism?
@@hokalos Yes, truth comes from the word of God, not self (Read Jeremiah 17:9 and 2 Timothy 3:16).
@@faithoverfear6263 that doesn’t contradict mysticism. Also, knowledge of God comes from the knowledge of Self, and vice versa, cf. Calvin. Both kinds of knowledge can be, and should be, grounded Scripture.
These things don’t necessarily contradict.
@@hokalos I agree with your last sentence but that's not the definition of mysticism. Knowledge of self comes from Scripture. True knowledge about God and self comes from Scripture, not mysticism.
@@faithoverfear6263 mysticism means total surrender to the lord. It is 'mystic' because it is away from the world, speaks the language of the heart, not of the thinking mind, which is a copy of the world. The thinking mind is the gate to the world, the heart is the gate to heaven.
A rather sectarian view.
If you read and believed the Bible you would know!
John Piper thinks that Thomas Aquinas' theology is bad theology?
There was this thing called the reformation, you might have missed it. Seriously, many protestants actually find a lot of good in Aquinas, and of course in Augustine. But, yes, if the question is Catholic theology in general, we think much of it is really unbiblical.
Aquinas was one of the first to promote Christians' involvement with war/military service. In my book, that alone says much about how far off one can go from what Christ preaches with bad theology. yes. bad. theology.
This is one of my problems with Protestantism: it assumes that for 1500 years (more or less) the Holy Spirit had failed to guide the Church aright. No one believed "sola fide" or "sola scriptura" for all those centuries of Christendom- but all of a sudden Martin Luther and John Calvin alight on the truth? It was the Church that Canonized scripture- not scripture that canonized the church (so to speak). And no one in their right mind could describe Aquinas' theology as "bad". It is clearly a work of genius that takes as its axioms the revealed truths of faith
Well, it’s not true that “no one” believed the solas. I mean . . . the apostles believed it.
***** Lol, do people still attempt real dialogue through *youtube comments*?
Ewwww, just ewww! He's endorsing contemplative prayer.... EWWWW!
No, he is redefining it with scripture....so actually he is doing the opposite of what you perceived.
Did you even listen to him?
@@hischild8899well, so much for the words of Christ Jesus of Nazareth. 💔🌀
The inner eye 👁
He has lost his marbles.
Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ and his Apostle Peter, the Rock.
+Maria Madriquez The Orthodox Catholic Church was founded by Christ and His Apostles ;)
Ian Buckmaster they are both founded by Christ. Sadly they broke off.
Eh... the RCC may say that but not the Orthodox Church.
Ian Buckmaster it's history
I think that you have historic succession. I'll give you that. Not necessarily that you have valid succession.
Contemplative prayer is the door by which Satan enters your heart and is eventually made lord of your life and this mystic-teaching false prophet is his messenger
What evidence do you have to prove that contemplative prayer leads to demonism?