I love playing Fallout in Gurps 3rd Edition. Same campaign off and on for over 10 years now. Gurps is a fantastic system and the creators off fallout used it to play Fallout as a table top game before there was a single line of code
I've been running a Fallout-style game in 4th ed for a year now and, yeah, I can see why the game devs of that era were crazy about the game. GURPS can be as granular and crunchy as you need it to be, and there are so many cool functions of the game that would be a lot easier to simulate through programming than at the table. Basically saying that I can see why Bethesda thought to go back to the system to prototype their game.
That’s honestly fascinating. I’m only 22 but I recently starting playing and researching older RPGs. It’s very interesting how much tabletop games influenced early video game RPGs in the west. I first noticed when I watched someone play daggerfall and saw “spell save failed” pop up in the corner. I instantly recognized that as tabletop lingo.
It also influenced JRPGs...it's just that they already had a different understanding of TTRPGs that mirrors in the "otherness" of JRPGs compared to early western RPGs, great stuff
I can see why Bethesda might have considered replacing the system. Has anybody ever tried using the Fallout system for tabletop play? It’s an unwieldly nightmare. Between the SPECIAL, Skills, and the diceroll, a ton of math goes into every move to the point that it’s overwhelming. I can totally see Bethesda, while trying to revive the series, getting spooked by that and considering an alternative, at least behind the scenes. GURPS seems like the obvious next choice, but I still have a hard time seeing them throw out SPECIAL entirely. Maybe they would’ve had the system play as GURPS, but everything displayed to the player could’ve stayed in SPECIAL.
I've tried easily 20+ times to turn Fallout into a table top RPG. I've managed to easily convert SPECIAL once. ONCE. And I had to butcher it to hell and back and completely change how it functions. I'll get there eventually.
Funny thing is that Fallout's basis _WAS_ in GURPS. Specifically, GURPS 2e. From my understanding, 2e GURPS was pretty bad but was revamped in 3e (to give you an idea, we're currently at GURPS 4e). Also note that the GURPS system is literally a 'plug and play' system which is essentially 'take what you need, discard the rest'. The reason that Fallout didn't become part of GURPS was because of the black humor _and_ the introductory cutscene for a start, so the creator of GURPS outright VETOED the process.
@@sporeham1674 BRP-based is definitely the way to go. Already got 100 point skills based on attributes right off the bat. I've ran Fallout in Mythras before (BRP based, has great firearms rules in a suppliment and good hit location stuff) but if you want to get down to brass tacks like actually using SPECIAL, look into the book BRP Gold. Basically a d100 rpg-building handbook.
Reading the background information for the GURPS conversion script reminds me of a long thread JE Sawyer had on his Twitter about how much the d20 dice-rolling system honestly kind of sucks for skill checks in RPGs, since the flat distribution of results (at least in the D&D system) makes the dice roll itself matter far more than the skills and abilities of the character you've built and played as. For once in my life, I have to give Bethesda credit for at least considering a change to the Fallout formula that may have actually improved the roleplay functions of the game. Of course, given that they didn't ultimately go with it and made a bunch of decisions (particularly regarding speech checks) that ended up being far more RNG-based than RPG-based, I won't give them that much credit.
@@White_Tiger93 Good point. It's really disappointing to see the countless opportunities Bethesda had where they could have made genuinely innovative decisions that would revolutionize the very nature of RPGs for years to come. And yet instead they've chosen the depressingly cynical route of destroying what few RPG elements they had.
For the speech check thing, they didn't have anything else to reference in Fallout 3, and as they wanted to be accurate to the previous games, they made it percentile based.
Ah GURPS you complicated bastard, if the author didn't pulled out after watching the intro movie maybe this system would have had gained more followers today.
I'm actually about to get a bunch of Gurps 4e off of Bundle of Holding. But I think there's not a lot of GMs willing to pretty much build their own game, which is what GURPS really wants out of you, and I'm worried that there's so many games now, almost anything you want it for might be better served by another more specific game. Even a more specific toolkit system... like Mythras, which I really love.
I'm not sure how much is publicly know, but Bethesda was going to make a Post Apocalypse RPG with or without the Fallout License. Think it was called Apocalypse Road for a working title. I'm fairly sure at the beginning of development, before they had the Fallout license, they weren't using SPECIAL. Maybe they were thinking about licensing GURPS as an option as well. Just speculation for my part.
I haven't stopped making long videos, but I did make long videos for about 3 years straight and it's creatively refreshing to create in a different way and talk about different subjects.
While it's not confirmed or anything, I guarentee you the TTRPG campaign that built The Elder Scrolls was a RuneQuest campaign. Not only is there tons of overlap between the systems, TES's setting is somewhat inspired by Glorantha with all it's "walk in the footsteps of God to become God" stuff and the focus on fantasy anthropology. ...Actually one of the Oblivion leads called Glorantha "the standard everyone strives towards" or something along those lines.
It's easy to see how Fallout 3 is a love letter to the original Fallout series but this just takes the cake, I'm almost worried to see how that system would have worked considering speech has always either been broken or worthless in the Fallout series.
@@demonspawn5164 speech worked but it was useless. 4 tried to fix the absolute broken speech of NV where a courier with 1 charisma could talk down a legate but even then it still wasn’t that great.
@@demonspawn5164 depends first aid is a very useful skill as it directly affects how much health stimpacks give doctor on the other hand is a worthless skill
@@diffsnicker6570 Compared to speech, it isn't game changing. Besides, stimpacks are abundant and you could just rest/sleep instead of using stimpacks. But still useful if you like it. I think the other guy just hates speech skill entirely, which is optional and does work for most part. The only exception is charisma made into a dumb stat, but still speech worked the way it should.
It's very unlikely Bethesda would've used GURPs in Fallout 3 given that Steve Jackson wanted creative control over Fallout 1. Which is why they had a falling out and ditched his system for SPECIAL. There's also a rumor that Steve Jackson was against the amount of violence in the game which Fallout 3 didn't skimp out on.
They're different and the better system is subjective. The GURPS system that would've been used in the original game was a very rules lite version of it, since it's a very complex Tabletop RPG from my understanding of it.
@@TriangleCity Its only complex in the sense that you can do anything with it, which can get a bit out of hand. If you need a magic system, it has a supplement for that. If you need psionics, it has that too. If you need high technology, also that. The core system is reasonably simple, its when you layer on new systems it can get unwieldly, especially since they all have to be able to interact with each other.
@@kushanblackrazor6614 But they are also designed to seamlessly integrate with each other. Any game can get overwhelming when you start adding supplements. GURPS supplements add content but rarely do they add rules conventions. That's all covered in the base book.
GURPS sounds like something I’d have to explain to my wife after an awkward doctors appointment.
It's easy.
Gurps is the sound your wife makes in my backseat while you're at that doctors appointment ;)
@Guantanamo Clay Pass it around, Anthony R has GURPS and never got his tip wet
You're thinking about GRIDS
@@Rhapbus1 lmaooooo😂
I love playing Fallout in Gurps 3rd Edition. Same campaign off and on for over 10 years now. Gurps is a fantastic system and the creators off fallout used it to play Fallout as a table top game before there was a single line of code
... but given the, well, _contraversial_ content in Fallout itself, the deal to make Fallout a GURPS setting fell through. Horribly.
@@TheTrueAdept wasn't that times when tabletop rpg's/PC games were literal satan for old peoples?
I've been running a Fallout-style game in 4th ed for a year now and, yeah, I can see why the game devs of that era were crazy about the game. GURPS can be as granular and crunchy as you need it to be, and there are so many cool functions of the game that would be a lot easier to simulate through programming than at the table. Basically saying that I can see why Bethesda thought to go back to the system to prototype their game.
Great video! I had no idea Bethesda even thought about GURPS. It's interesting to think about modern Fallout with different skill checks.
Since special is based off GURPS…
It's interesting to think about Fallout 4 having skill checks in the first place, rather then the dumbed down dialogue we got
@@BrandonDoran00 lol yeah
That’s honestly fascinating. I’m only 22 but I recently starting playing and researching older RPGs. It’s very interesting how much tabletop games influenced early video game RPGs in the west. I first noticed when I watched someone play daggerfall and saw “spell save failed” pop up in the corner. I instantly recognized that as tabletop lingo.
It also influenced JRPGs...it's just that they already had a different understanding of TTRPGs that mirrors in the "otherness" of JRPGs compared to early western RPGs, great stuff
Hearing GURPS referred to like some kind of ancient relic just aged me 20 years
@@jts.97 lmao don’t worry, GURPS still has a pretty dedicated fan base. It’s still a fairly popular system.
I can see why Bethesda might have considered replacing the system. Has anybody ever tried using the Fallout system for tabletop play? It’s an unwieldly nightmare. Between the SPECIAL, Skills, and the diceroll, a ton of math goes into every move to the point that it’s overwhelming.
I can totally see Bethesda, while trying to revive the series, getting spooked by that and considering an alternative, at least behind the scenes. GURPS seems like the obvious next choice, but I still have a hard time seeing them throw out SPECIAL entirely. Maybe they would’ve had the system play as GURPS, but everything displayed to the player could’ve stayed in SPECIAL.
I've tried easily 20+ times to turn Fallout into a table top RPG. I've managed to easily convert SPECIAL once. ONCE. And I had to butcher it to hell and back and completely change how it functions. I'll get there eventually.
@@sporeham1674 Have you tried converting the Cyberpunk tabletop system?
Funny thing is that Fallout's basis _WAS_ in GURPS. Specifically, GURPS 2e. From my understanding, 2e GURPS was pretty bad but was revamped in 3e (to give you an idea, we're currently at GURPS 4e).
Also note that the GURPS system is literally a 'plug and play' system which is essentially 'take what you need, discard the rest'. The reason that Fallout didn't become part of GURPS was because of the black humor _and_ the introductory cutscene for a start, so the creator of GURPS outright VETOED the process.
@@sporeham1674 BRP-based is definitely the way to go. Already got 100 point skills based on attributes right off the bat. I've ran Fallout in Mythras before (BRP based, has great firearms rules in a suppliment and good hit location stuff) but if you want to get down to brass tacks like actually using SPECIAL, look into the book BRP Gold. Basically a d100 rpg-building handbook.
Reading the background information for the GURPS conversion script reminds me of a long thread JE Sawyer had on his Twitter about how much the d20 dice-rolling system honestly kind of sucks for skill checks in RPGs, since the flat distribution of results (at least in the D&D system) makes the dice roll itself matter far more than the skills and abilities of the character you've built and played as.
For once in my life, I have to give Bethesda credit for at least considering a change to the Fallout formula that may have actually improved the roleplay functions of the game. Of course, given that they didn't ultimately go with it and made a bunch of decisions (particularly regarding speech checks) that ended up being far more RNG-based than RPG-based, I won't give them that much credit.
@@White_Tiger93 Good point. It's really disappointing to see the countless opportunities Bethesda had where they could have made genuinely innovative decisions that would revolutionize the very nature of RPGs for years to come. And yet instead they've chosen the depressingly cynical route of destroying what few RPG elements they had.
For the speech check thing, they didn't have anything else to reference in Fallout 3, and as they wanted to be accurate to the previous games, they made it percentile based.
Ah GURPS you complicated bastard, if the author didn't pulled out after watching the intro movie maybe this system would have had gained more followers today.
That and if they didn't make Munchkins. Munchkins sold so well Steve Jackson Games basically abandoned GURPS.
Why? Did it scare them somehow?
He thought it was too violent
I'm actually about to get a bunch of Gurps 4e off of Bundle of Holding.
But I think there's not a lot of GMs willing to pretty much build their own game, which is what GURPS really wants out of you, and I'm worried that there's so many games now, almost anything you want it for might be better served by another more specific game. Even a more specific toolkit system... like Mythras, which I really love.
I'm not sure how much is publicly know, but Bethesda was going to make a Post Apocalypse RPG with or without the Fallout License. Think it was called Apocalypse Road for a working title. I'm fairly sure at the beginning of development, before they had the Fallout license, they weren't using SPECIAL. Maybe they were thinking about licensing GURPS as an option as well. Just speculation for my part.
As much as I love Fallout 3, I can totally see how at some point it *became* a Fallout reskin of something else. It'd explain a lot, actually.
Glad to see you're putting out more videos! I do really enjoy the longer videos but I know they're more work.
I haven't stopped making long videos, but I did make long videos for about 3 years straight and it's creatively refreshing to create in a different way and talk about different subjects.
@@TriangleCity oh dude I totally get it. I'm here for it either way. Make what you want to make and I'll watch it
Reminds me of the fact that Dark Age of Camelot was originally going to use the Rolemaster fantasy roleplaying system :-D
I remember Gurps, and how it made the earlier games the way they where
I love the longer format videos, but these shorties are really great too!
Great work!!
While it's not confirmed or anything, I guarentee you the TTRPG campaign that built The Elder Scrolls was a RuneQuest campaign.
Not only is there tons of overlap between the systems, TES's setting is somewhat inspired by Glorantha with all it's "walk in the footsteps of God to become God" stuff and the focus on fantasy anthropology.
...Actually one of the Oblivion leads called Glorantha "the standard everyone strives towards" or something along those lines.
Just watched a TKs video that shouted you out. Glad I found your channel and excited to start binging
It's easy to see how Fallout 3 is a love letter to the original Fallout series but this just takes the cake, I'm almost worried to see how that system would have worked considering speech has always either been broken or worthless in the Fallout series.
Speech did work in first 2 games. Medicine is a far more useless perk/skill even in fallout 4,1,2. Somewhat useful in fallout NV though.
@@demonspawn5164 speech worked but it was useless. 4 tried to fix the absolute broken speech of NV where a courier with 1 charisma could talk down a legate but even then it still wasn’t that great.
@@demonspawn5164 depends first aid is a very useful skill as it directly affects how much health stimpacks give doctor on the other hand is a worthless skill
@@diffsnicker6570 Compared to speech, it isn't game changing. Besides, stimpacks are abundant and you could just rest/sleep instead of using stimpacks. But still useful if you like it. I think the other guy just hates speech skill entirely, which is optional and does work for most part. The only exception is charisma made into a dumb stat, but still speech worked the way it should.
@@demonspawn5164 yeah the only fallout game where charisma actually matters is 2 and even then you could get away with only 2 or 3 points in it
What is it that you used to change the HUD for Fallout 1? I love the kick\punch action button!
I think most of them are pre-release screenshots and videos when they still considered using GURPS
One of the few Bethesda's based moments
Triangle what’s the song in your intro?
You just can't leave well enough alone can you imagine
It's very unlikely Bethesda would've used GURPs in Fallout 3 given that Steve Jackson wanted creative control over Fallout 1. Which is why they had a falling out and ditched his system for SPECIAL. There's also a rumor that Steve Jackson was against the amount of violence in the game which Fallout 3 didn't skimp out on.
Sort of ironic considering how grusome GURPS combat can get.
Loving these shorter videos dude
Hey triangle city if u see this just know u got me worried but I hope ur living the life
Man gurps is a fun word to say
I love all these uploads
In could be for Vats give more of a table top expernce.
Yo TringleCity, do you have any shampoo recommendations?
Uh yeah I guess I do 😂 I like to use Castile soap like Dr. Bronners
@UCVBu50wXFw0fE1G9ZVJbCLQ You're an idiot aren't you?
Fire video as always👍
I mean dudes made Morrowind after all XD
My favorite system.
Hey Triangle City did you know that their is a FNV update, I got it on my Xbox one have any idea what’s it for?
I typically just play the PC version so I hadn't heard about that actually!
Could be for 4k for the series s and x I remember seeing something about it on some gears of war 3 update notes
1:12
Where the fuck is this from??? cursed friendly morpheus?
Interplay released a press pack back in Fallout's early development and all of the images in it are from when Fallout still used GURPS.
Well… Yeah.
Sorry to ask TriangleCity, but you pretend to make a video on the Fallout PNP D20?
I might actually! I love TTRPGs
@@TriangleCity Cool! I also really like them.
@@TriangleCity A video discussing TTRPG's that could represent Fallout would actually be interesting. A lot of candidates there.
what is better gurps or special?
They're different and the better system is subjective. The GURPS system that would've been used in the original game was a very rules lite version of it, since it's a very complex Tabletop RPG from my understanding of it.
It is not. 4 stats, three dice, all simple addition and subtraction. Its an easy system to run and play.
Oh interesting. I haven't played it personally and I've heard that from other people, tho that might just be a common misconception about it.
@@TriangleCity Its only complex in the sense that you can do anything with it, which can get a bit out of hand. If you need a magic system, it has a supplement for that. If you need psionics, it has that too. If you need high technology, also that. The core system is reasonably simple, its when you layer on new systems it can get unwieldly, especially since they all have to be able to interact with each other.
@@kushanblackrazor6614 But they are also designed to seamlessly integrate with each other. Any game can get overwhelming when you start adding supplements. GURPS supplements add content but rarely do they add rules conventions. That's all covered in the base book.
CC frfr
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