Would You Take Clemens Out Of Game 6?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 6 кві 2024
- Most of us think about Bill Buckner's error when we think about game 6 of the 1986 World Series. But there was a lot more to it than just that. Would you have taken Roger Clemens out for a pinch hitter in the top of the 8th inning with a 3-2 lead?
Become a paid member for extra videos and other perks!
/ @baseballreplayjournal
I'll bring you a different game from one of my replays every single day here at the Baseball Replay Journal Game of the Day. Remember to subscribe so that you don't miss a single game!
Let's Replay videos differ from traditional Let's Play videos in that they focus on organized sports replays. Using games such as APBA, Strat-O-Matic, OOTP, Action PC Baseball, Replay, Diamond Mind Baseball, NPIII, and so on, we replayers play through old baseball seasons one game at a time, reliving the old storylines, learning about the old players, and engaging with counterfactual history in a very unique manner.
For more information about this project and about replays in general, please see my blog at baseballreplayjournal.substac...
I use on Endeavour OS with KDE Plasma. My specs:
AMD Ryzen 9 7950X3D (5.759 Ghz)
AMD ATI Raedon RX 7900XTX
96 GB RAM
RØDE Procaster Microphone with GoXLR Mini
Logitech C930e Webcam
I mix my audio in Audacity, render my video in Kdenlive, and create my own thumbnails with GIMP. Support free and open source software (FOSS)!
I use Arch, btw. - Спорт
If the blister was the actual problem I probably would have taken him out. But based on what I could see on the video, no one was examining Clemens' hand not even the team physician. This seems to suggest that the pitch count was the reason.
It wasn't just the blister. Clemens broke a fingernail in the 7th, too, and was bleeding from two fingers. The NBC footage only shows a few seconds of Clemens in the dugout. Whatever discussions were going on was between innings while we weer all watching a commercial break.
When someone mentions Game 6, I think of the 1975 World Series with the Boston Red Sox and the Cincinnati Reds.
Greenwell probably had a better chance of driving in that runner on 2nd than Clemens would have. If Greenwell had driven in that run this discussion is moot. 100% hindsight is always better than what really happened.
I was 25 at the time, and told my brother Stanley was going to throw a wild pitch when they brought him in. McNamara blew the game taking out Clemens imo. As far as pitch count goes I don't remember at that time (1986) was ever in the discussion as it would years later. Just a 62 year old man's memories.
He was on deck to hit he was the M.V.P and the Cy Young winner 🏆 only pitch that was bothering him was the slider the team doctor said Roger didn't wanna come out
As a Yankee fan, I saw Clemmens later in his career pitching for my team. I can tell you I watched basically every start. I'm sure there were some other elements at play, but that is still one of the most competitive athletes I've ever seen in my life. Comparing how he reacted to an umpire in the middle of a season in the heat of the moment versus not showing up his manager in the dugout is not a good comparison. He never showed up Joe Torre once. He was known as a great teammate (though hated by opposition) The chances of him wanting out of that game I put at slim to none. I remember Yankees had a pitcher nicknamed ‘el duquecito’, claiming he was a mini el duque. This was summer 2002 I believe, Clemens would have been 38/39. The kid says he has the flu and can’t pitch. Don’t know how sick he was, Clemens volunteered to pitch, 3 days rest, midsummer against a bad Detroit team, 38/49 years old, why? He said afterwards he wanted the kid to know it was a privelage to pitch for the Yankees. Clemens wasn’t great, I think gave up 4 in 5. Yankees of course scored 10 for him and he won. 0 chance he asked out
I would have left Roger Clemens in the game. It is the World Series, how many opportunities will a team have to win the World Series with their best pitcher on the mound? I have had Boston Red Sox fans tell me that Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS and the Grady Little leaving Pedro Martínez in the bottom of the eighth is what would have happened to Roger Clemens in 1986. But that is really not the same situation and I do not understand the Red Sox fans who, to this day, still believe that. Besides, if there was no Game 7, we would have never had the "Oil Can" Boyd situation...
Agree except what if he didn’t want to stay in?
In Strato, not a chance. But of course there are lots of real-life factors that we don't know about. Clemens had not been very strong in October on the whole, prior to this game, and may have worn down. His denial that he asked out of the game is no more credible than any other statement he's ever made. That said, in Strato I don't have to worry about blisters or guys asking out or any other weaknesses of the flesh. I tend to stick with my top guys so long as they're effective and within their fatigue range.
Also game 6 of the '75 Series
In general I’d leave in your best in these type of moments. Make teams beat your best. Sometimes it doesn’t go your way - ie 2015 World Series with Matt Harvey in game 1 loss. But I liked that call for the Mets at the time.
But in this situation I tend to believe Keith Hernandez and the manger over Clemens. Clemens has had a tendency to not be truthful. If my ace wanted out, you gotta pull him.
This is why no DH baseball is superior
Dan, Clemens was done... over 130 pitches... Runner on 2nd up by 1 need an insurance run... McNamara had to pinch hit for him...
How many games have minor injuries that reduce a player's quality?
I would've kept Clemens in there until he was ineffective. He has all winter to rest. I absolutely don't believe that Clemens said "I'm done" when he went to the dugout after the seventh. I think McNamara was simply lying about that. In fact, he himself said he thought the blister Clemens had was too bad for him to continue. It's clear to me that the decision was all on McNamara.
Also, I would've sent up Baylor instead of Greenwell as a pinch-hitter. I would've pulled Buckner and sent in Stapleton. Baylor pinch-hitting and Stapleton coming in for Buckner were moves that were made all season long. Why change it up now? It just seemed bizarre to me.
Granted that I'm older than you, but when Red Sox fans of my age or older think of "Game Six", there's only one game that comes to mind. And it sure ain't from 1986.
OK, as to the question: John McNamara mostly made the right decisions in that game. With regards to Roger Clemens and, yes, with regards to Bill Buckner.
You're playing a team that won 108 games (hmmm; best of the decade, just like the Cincinnati Reds in 1975), a team that Bill James said was the closest any team in baseball in 20 years had come to have had someone above league average at nearly every position. Let's give credit where credit is due: The Mets were easily the best team in baseball that year.
Clemens was not having anything close to dominating in the post-season as he was in the regular season. He was shellacked by the California Angels in game one of the ALCS and the Mets had knocked him out in the 5th in game two of the Series.
His curve wasn't as effective late in the season, so he was relying more and more on his fastball in this game. But in addition to the blister, which eliminated his slider, Clemens tore a fingernail in the 7th. He was bleeding from two fingers, not just one. He threw 17 pitches in the 7th. He admitted he told McNamara that his fingers stung.
"I told them I couldn't throw any sliders, but I could get them out with fastballs and forkballs," Clemens said.
Like the fastballs he gave up resulting in sharply hit back-to-back singles to on Wally Backman and Keith Hernandez in the 6th? After giving up 2 runs in the 5th? He was done.
Mike Greenwell wouldn't have been the first young player to have gotten a key hit had he drove home Dave Henderson in the top of the 8th to give Boston an insurance run. And if Dave Johnson pulled Roger McDowell at that point and brought in lefty Jesse Orosco, McNamara could have countered with Don Baylor. Orosco was not nearly as effective that year against righties and a 2-run blast by Baylor might have very well sealed the Series. And, with one out, if Baylor was walked intentionally the league batting champ, Wade Boggs, would have been coming up with runners at first and second. Boggs splits were just as good against LHP as against RHP. And if Boggs didn't get a hit but a walk instead (he had 105 that year), that would have loaded the bases and forced the infield to come in with Marty Barrett up next, a RHB who was about 50 points better against lefties. So, Johnson decided to take his chances with a tiring relief pitcher against a guy who had hit over .300 in limited play and who had a .920 OPS at AAA. (Greenwell would go on to hit .297 or better playing full-time for Boston the next five seasons.)
The only key decision, and I think this is bigger than the Clemens and Buckner decisions but never talked about, where I would have differed with McNamara is that I would have brought in veteran lefty Joe Sambito to start the 8th instead of Calvin Schiraldi. Pinch-hitter Lee Mazzilli was a better hitter from the left side throughout his career than the right and that was certainly true in 1986, hitting only .173. After the pitcher's spot was LHP Lenny Dykstra, who hit only .233 against lefties that year. Then after Lenny would be switch-hitter Wally Backman, who also struggled against lefties at .192. If any one them got on, another LHB, Keith Hernandez, was due up 4th in the inning.
I'd had seen a lot of Sambito in Los Angeles over the years when he was with the visiting Astros, both in person and on TV. And he was deadly against left-handed batters. I don't know why McNamara didn't bring him in to relieve Clemens, especially considering who the Mets had due up. Joe had only had one 6-out save in 1986, but that's OK. Just get out of the 8th with the lead intact and let veteran Bob Stanley come in fresh in the 9th with the bases empty to go after Keith Hernandez, Gary Carter and Darryl Strawberry to hopefully close out the Series. Instead, not only did the Mets tie it against Schiraldi, but Schiraldi was left in for the 9th and 10th! Then Stanley is brought in in a pressure cooker.
One last thing. About Buckner. There's no way I'd have taken Buckner out, either. Buckner was no Keith Hernandez on the field but certainly neither was Dave Stapleton. And you can review the box scores of all year long. When Buckner came out of games it was generally in blow-outs or for a pinch-runner. The Mets had a penchant from coming from behind and I would not have wanted a guy in the lineup the rest of the game, Stapleton, who literally didn't even hit his weight that year!
A minor point - I think Schiraldi stood out in McNamara's mind after the ALCS. He did blow the save in game 4 and gave up a run in game 3, but pitched well in games 5 and 7, and saved game 1 of the World Series. I think McNamara was likely thinking of the two inning save more than anything at that point.
I also should have noted that Schiraldi was not removed for a pinch hitter in the top of the 10th, which I think is crazy - but I worried that this video was long enough as it was. Schiraldi himself showed signs of being in trouble as soon as he came in, and almost lost the game in the bottom of the 9th.
The other thread I thought about touching on but didn't was Tom Seaver, who was left off the postseason roster. It would have made for a fantastic story if Seaver had come in to try to close out the World Series against the Mets. Seaver's SABR biography makes this point.
As good as the Mets were, they were somewhat disadvantaged in this game - chiefly by Davey Johnson's unusually aggressive managerial decisions. I still think it was crazy to take Santana out as early as the 5th. The decision with Orosco still puzzles me: Mookie wasn't hitting in the series (though he did come in handy in the 10th inning) and could have been lifted for Kevin Mitchell or Howard Johnson or Lee Mazzilli instead.
The nice thing about the "other" game 6 in 1975 is that it was relatively well managed. The more I look at this one, the more mistakes I see.
And, yeah, you're right about Buckner, who gets a lot of undeserved blame. I'm not sure I understand why McNamara was so dead set on sticking with Schiraldi in the 10th. In addition to pitching poorly, Schiraldi committed a fielding blunder (which was scored as only a fielder's choice) in the bottom of the 8th, which led directly to that run. The Mets bunted twice and got a sacrifice fly in that inning, which is like something out of 1908.
Sambito was poor against righties that year, and the Mets were stacked with righties by the end of the game. Then again, Stanley wasn't great against anybody. Tom Seaver, meanwhile, did quite well against righties in 1986. Go figure.
@@baseballreplayjournal If anything, McNamara had too much faith in Schiraldi.
Seaver had a knee injury, otherwise he would have been on the ALCS and World Series rosters. And wouldn't that have been something had Seaver been able to start instead of either Boyd or Nipper and been available for a few innings in relief in either game 6 or game 7?
As for Sambito, my point was that it was that the guys he would have faced in the 8th did not do well vs. lefties. Mazzilli, pinch-hitting for Orosco, was a switch-hitter, Dykstra was left-handed, Backman was a switch-hitter. If anyone got on, Keith Hernandez would have been up 4th in the inning. And if that happened, with Carter up next, Sambito would have been pulled.
But I would have trusted Stanley more to close it out in the 9th than Schiraldi. Yes, he threw that wild pitch in the 10th that allowed the tying run to score. But if Sambito was brought in and handled the 8th without the Mets tying it, Stanley would have started the 9th with the bases empty.
As for McNamara, I always thought he was underrated as a manager and got unfairly criticized over the Buckner error. He got the Oakland A's ready for greatness before Dick Williams took all the credit. He was stuck with a poor team in San Diego. The Reds surprised everyone, winning the division in 1979 and of course Cincinnati had the best record in baseball in 1981 but didn't qualify for the playoffs. And he took a Boston team that few people expected (and I am happy to say that I was one of those few) to win the division and then come within one pitch of winning the World Series.
Brilliant response... I totally agree with your analysis...
Id go by what i see and what the pitcher tells me
But Ill tell you this...there is NO way in hell Im putting Bob Stanley on the mound in any situation remotely approaching a critical time
I attended lots of Sox games with my Dad during that era. And watched lots more at home.
If you were at Fenway when they called Stanley in from the bullpen you'd hear boos that rivaled AROD's first Fenway at bat in a Yankees uniform
He sucked.
He's a loser.
And this, I thought, had been well established by October of 1986
Was he the reason they lost?
Maybe
It wasn't Buckner's fault...and Im not gonna go off on a tangent
"Sucked?" "Loser?" "Well established?"
Sorry, but I can't let that pass without a critique.
Were you there booing Stanley in 1978, too? You see if it weren't for Bob Stanley and his 15-2 record and 10 saves, Bucky Dent wouldn't have acquired a new middle name - because the Red Sox would have been done by mid-September without the Steamer. In May, with closer Bill Campebll on the shelf for nearly all of the month, the 23-year old Stanley won three games and saved another three. The Red Sox were 7-2 in games he appeared in and closed out the month with a growing three game lead over the Yankees.
After management foolishly got rid of veterans Luis Tiant and Bill Lee at season's end, manager Don Zimmer needed another starter the following season (after all, you couldn't expect Haywood Sullivan to go out an acquire anyone to help the team or for Jean Yawkey to open her purse and let Sullivan sign a free agent pitcher). Zim turned to Stanley, who made the AL All-Star team with 16 wins. Then it was mostly back to the bullpen in 1980.
Stanley kept the Sox in the race in 1982, finishing 7th in the Cy Young voting with 12 wins and 14 saves and a league-leading then-unkept stat of a 140 ERA+. Then another 55 saves over the next two years.
The year 1985 was probably the year that you and the other boo-birds began to sing at Fenway. Perhaps because there was nothing Stanley could do could help Boston be competitive that year. Stanley blew eight saves that year (the Red Sox still won 4 of those games). But four of those blown saves were at Fenway, including a August 9th loss to the Yankees. He was brought in with a 6-4 lead and the bases loaded with one out to face Rickey Henderson, Don Mattingly, Dave Winfield and Don Baylor. By the time the inning was over, New York lead 9-6. Bruce Hurst took the loss and the Red Sox were now 12 games behind Toronto. And yet, despite all the boos at Fenway that year, Stanley did have a 2.87 ERA (a 149 ERA+), finishing 41 games in relief and notched 10 saves.
And in 1986? The booing continued with an opening day loss to the World Champion Royals. That would be the first year Stanley had an ERA+ below 100 (at 96). But he finished 50 games in relief with 16 saves. Down the stretch-run from mid-August on, he closed out 16 games, allowing earned runs in only four of them. In the World Series, Stanley had a 3-inning save at Shea to help give the Red Sox a 2-0 lead in the series. The Red Sox lost games 3 and 4 at Fenway, but Stanley pitched 3 scoreless innings in those two games. Yes, he gave up the wild pitch in game 6 that allowed Kevin Mitchell to score and tie the game. But he didn't up three straight singles with two out that led to him coming in with runners on first and third. And there's been a lingering question about that wild pitch. It went off Gedman's glove, but was still ruled a wild pitch. Stanley threw a lot of sinkers, which is why I would have preferred that he had started an inning instead of coming in with runners on base.
Did Stanley have a poor 1987 season. Of course. He was 4-15, mostly back on the mound as a starter to replace Oil Can Boyd in the rotation.
Back in the bullpen in 1988, Steamer had another good season in helping the Red Sox narrowly win the AL East before succuming to the juiced Oakland A's in the ALCS.
With the incompent GM Haywood Sullivan and Don Zimmer making things even worse in the dugout, the Red Sox missed opportunities to be on top in the late '70s. And Sullivan's stupidity in dealing with the contracts of Carlton Fisk, Fred Lynn and Rick Burleson kept them out of the running until 1986.
But Stanley was not the fault of the Red Sox mismanagement. In fact, the team would have certainly been worse off without him.