My 2021 Model 3 with 600 km claimed range had about 250 km range this Christmas. (When starting with 90% and arriving with 15% as a safety buffer). I like the car, but potential buyers in cold climates should know how bad it gets.
That's pretty good actually, if you go on the motorway and drive at 120kph in the winter with the heating on, from 90% to 15% you're looking at more like 150km, less for a 3+ year old model with some battery degradation from normal use.
I do wish those charts went to cold temperatures (rather than just not warm). Minus 14F (instead of -14C) would be useful for example. BTW, Engineering explained is Jason.
The energy used for cabin heat is not the only cause of range loss. Just turn off the heat and your range does not return. A rarely mentioned cause is the increased air density at lower temperatures. Any pilot will tell you about the big change in takeoff performance with temperature changes. The higher air density of cool air improves lift and engine power. Denser air effects the car with increased drag. Snow or rain covered roads take their toll too.
He totally addressed this. He said the majority of the range loss is colder batteries and denser air. Maybe also snow. Keep in mind he said gas cars get 15% worse mileage in the winter, too, and they don't generate heat for the cabin separately, they just use waste heat from the engine. Especially with a newer EV with a heat pump, you're not going to help yourself out much by turning the heat off. May as well be comfy, warm, and content in the knowledge that the vast majority of your drives won't remotely drain the battery anyway, so who cares about few lost miles?
So thank you for posting this video, as you explained the subject matter well giving great examples of how to understand range loss. The other thing that causes increase loss of range during cold weather is cars are dirty and usually covered with ice and snow, and so it's important to keep your car as clean as possible, and also to make sure that your tires are properly inflated too. The other thing is don't drive like a moron, use moderation during you're drive, and you can save yourself a lot of range that way too. So about your doors and doorhandles freezing, one way to guard against that and the same for your windshield wipers, and your charge port is to use a windshield antifreeze, and spray these areas the night before the big freeze, particularly if you're vehicle sits outside and you should also do that to the mirrors, as well. One of things I did was I went into the quick control settings and defeated the automatic folding feature of the outside mirrors that will ensure that the motor that power this operation isn’t put under undo stress during cold weather and freezing weather conditions.. So the other thing I will mention here is you can wrap your windshield wipers in a plastic umbrella covers that you can find at most stores or just use a plastic bag you get from your local supermarkets to cover the outside mirrors and the windshield wiper blades, and you can tape over your charging port, or use the windshield antifreeze to spray down these areas and that will help keep them free from freezing as well. So cheers, have a safe journey and enjoy your Tesla Christmas box while charging at a Tesla supercharger.
4:20 It's amazing how sensitive battery efficiency (I assume it's mainly battery round-trip charge efficiency being measured) is to temperature. Tesla's NCA batteries like the same temperature range as we humans.
Interesting, thanks for this video, and that chart was exactly what I was curious about. I incorrectly thought that the range / efficiency really only started going down at freezing temp, but now I see that it really starts to be affected at anything under about 70 degrees F.
My model YLR door handles froze about three times yesterday. I don’t think preheating the cabin helped at all. Doing the “hammer fist” thing did break the ice. Driving the Y with snow tires is incredible. Almost like there is no snow. Actions that would make other cars spin out just result in a small amount of slip as the car just takes off or turns. I can literally floor it at a stop sign and be completely in control w high acceleration on a solid snow floor.
Preconditioning before a trip (plugged into wall + defrost / conditioning cycle (3 bacons on the application near battery) will vastly improve this loss. Regularly drive into into the Columbia River George when in winter temperature and wind varies but between 20-40 degrees, and 15-50mph wind. Without preconditioning I always end up with 30+ % loss in range. When preconditioned I lost maybe 15-20% range, its a huge difference. Without wind I can average 300-330wh/m in ~30F weather and with 10-15mph + same conditions I average 350-400 wh/mi. My poor Mid-Range goes top 130-140 miles in the winter conditions given, but in summer I hit 185-200 miles.
Im in the cold climate and I’ve noticed it’s taking 20 percent battery for about 40 miles, granted I keep the heat at 73 and heated seats on. While I dislike the range loss, I absolutely love everything else about the model y. And I feel very safe driving in the snow.
Model S heats super fast and great defrosters. Summer tires are a bit slippery in the ice/snow so here in the hills of MA I use winter snow tires on separate wheels.
To drive home my tesla m3 is regularily climbing a 5km high an 5km long mountain slope. Compared to my old 4wd it's really smooth, especially going down. You are almost unable to slip because there are no too sharp breaks. It's gold.
In Norway, despite the range drops of their extreme cold climates, it is interesting that it has not stopped them. I believe the reason for this is how expensive gasoline prices got during the pandemic, which are known to be twice as expensive as the US gas prices. To top if it, electricity prices are only a fraction of what it is in the US... So even at a 50% reduction of range, it is still more cost effective compared to ICE vehicles. Maybe new technology will arrive later to help solve some of these issues to require less energy to warm up the vehicles...
To be fair ICE vehicles lose significant range in colder weather also. Every time the refineries switch to "Winter Blend" my fuel consumption increases significantly. Overall my Focus ST goes from about 30mpg in the summer to 24mpg in colder weather or a 25% drop with Mid-Grade Gas.
Interesting, I never experienced this with a diesel car, I hover around 700 miles year round, it only drops if I'm in start/stop traffic with the aircon on 😂- looking at range tests, the Model 3 drops down to something like 120 miles at motorway speeds (70mph) in winter. Once you add a buffer of 20 miles and some battery degradation, that's more like 80 miles of comfortable range before you start looking for a supercharger, or about 11% of the range of an equivalently sized Diesel. I think we are still a way off from these being a mass adoption product.
The Model Y (LR or P) handles great on slushy/snowy/icy roads. The fat tires get traction on the sketchiest surfaces, so you can drive up on the packed snow on the right side to give super-considerate clearance to oncoming traffic. Even black ice is no problem if it covers only half of the lane, thanks to Tesla's traction control.
Something my 2022 model Y does that bothers me is when I let go of the throttle on snow covered roads... the tires lock up and unlock as the traction control kicks in and the car gets a little squirly... not too bad in a straight line but if you are heading into or are in mid corner and that happens the front end will slide out. First time this happened to me I was close to heading into the ditch.
It would seem the best option for colder climates would be an insulated battery that is able to be prewarmed, while plugged in. Perhaps Tesla will add a winter package?
I do doordash as my full-time job and I do notice a slight difference in range even here in Southern California but it's mostly because I'm running the heater because I want to be comfortable. I was running at 4 miles per kilowatt hour and now I'm running at about 3.7 miles per kilowatt hour
7:12 There are a number of possible explanations for the poorer temperature performance of Models S&X vs Models 3&Y, one being that the heat pump system, sharing a common pump among all 4 models, is less capable relative to the larger size of the S&X battery and other components.
Model 3 without heatpump: Real world I still reach the charger I do for my regular longer trips (friends/relatives). Since my SOC will be lower my initial charge rate will be higher...so the actual time loss isn't as linear as one would expect. Driving during snowy/icy/foggy conditions means that I drive slower and therfore wind resistance drops - which incrases range again. Range loss is real, but the impact on trips isn't as severe as one might think.
Graph starts at -12c, That is not low enough for us Canadians., -12 is an average winters day, the data needs to run all the way down to -30. I see some information from local folks with Long Range Y doing highway drives at -30 and the range is around 200km.... that's probably getting down to 40%. What would be really useful would be numbers broken down by all the different battery chemistries. I'm looking for the ability to go 160km, park it with no plug in then drive home at -20c, Doing this twice a week all winter long. If it comes up short, then data on charging performance in these situations.
There's another comment here someone losing 35% battery from around 45 miles (72km). That puts the range at 100 miles (160km) - just! - but if after 3 years of ownership, the battery degradation is 12% that's down to 90 miles (144km). If you want to leave an extra 20 miles to avoid range anxiety, that's a winter range of around 70 miles (112km) before you're looking for a charger. Seems pretty shocking considering Teslas have the best range, how bad is it in a non Tesla EV??
I like to know two ranges, one of range when start driving with car outside in cold so cold battery and another when do same but warm battery first like (like when select track that warms battery ready to accelerate hard)
Good analysis. But I see one big potential issue with this. The average, I assume, is based on a lot of daily commutes. During a road trip quite a bit of energy may be lost just after the start of the trip but probably not so much to maintain the temperature of the Battery and the cabin. So I suspect the range loss may be better than this during road trips, where range really matters.
I have extensive (40years) experience driving on snow-packed and icy roads. I drive on Mt. Hood 2-3 days/wk. in winter in my 2021 LR AWD model Y after years of doing the same in my Subaru Outback. The Subaru is better. The traction control in the Y seems to fail for 3-4 seconds if I quickly back off the accelerator. This causes the car to fishtail a bit on a slippery road and it is very unnerving. The traction control regains control after this brief period, but someone could easily overcorrect and lose control of the car. I feel this is a major design flaw and Tesla needs to address it.
I agree 100%! The tail slides too easily with very little power engaged (especially in narrow roundabouts). There should be one "normal" and one "winter" control of traction; the latter with more effect from the front motor. 🎅
@@99BSH Try putting it in neutral and using the friction brakes when slowing on a slippery road. My M3 has a low regen setting that also helps, but I think they got rid of it.
5:00 I wonder if the differences between temperature performance of the Model 3 and S are mostly reflective of the difference between 2170 and 1865 formats, or it's more about chemistry.
Something my 2022 model Y does that bothers me is when I let go of the throttle on snow covered roads... the tires lock up and unlock as the traction control kicks in and the car gets a little squirly... not too bad in a straight line but if you are heading into or are in mid corner and that happens the front end will slide out. First time this happened to me I was close to heading into the ditch.
About heat pump it works with current batteries well but there is more octavalve when you drive a longer trip then battery heats up and needs no heating and even you can get that heat and heat inside of the car so no heat lost. When talking 4680 then it is a bit different those batteries don't heat up as much since they have smaller internal resistance and heatpump becomes as only source of heating leading to smaller benefit in colder climate. But 4680 will probably have more charge when left cold place.
We have two, a 2018 model X and a 2019 model 3. Range is less in both, if you use the heater without preheating so we tend to warm the cabin up while plugged in and then use the heat minimally once under way. this significantly improves the range as it takes a significant amount of power to get the cabin warm than it does to keep it warm. Seat warmers also help out. We live in a area where temperatures are near freezing for 2 to 3 months of the year. Both cars are garage kept. Winter cost as compared to ICE is still significantly less.
What about if you need to park outside? - What kind of range do you comfortably get without pre-heating before range anxiety kicks in and you need to look for a charger?
On December 2nd, I used a rented 2021 standard range Model Y to go from Vancouver BC to Kelowna. Once away from Vancouver the temperatures ranged from -5C to -15C. From the superchargers from Hope to Merritt and from Merritt to Kelowna, it was downright stressful watching the battery charge drop. Especially going up the mountain passes. And then it was quite a relief going down the passes with the charge staying even or even increasing a few percent. But I was pretty shocked that range was reduced by the cold by about 40%. We weren't really sure if we'd make it. Our actual numbers were coming up so much worse than what was predicted when I planned the route using A Better Route Planner, which supposedly accounts for winter conditions. We also planned ahead bundling up / and had blankets so that we didn't have to run the heaters as much. The return trip home was much less stressful since we knew what to expect. But both ways were also a lot slower than expected. Not just because we had to stop at multiple super chargers when in the summer it would be one stop, but because the charging speed in the cold was really slow. The car itself was awesome. It handled the snowy Coquihalla highway totally rock solid, despite just having M+S tires (the bare minimum legal winter tires on that highway). And the cost of supercharging through the trip was just around 1/3 to 1/2 what we would have spent on gas had we taken our Mazda3 (who's tires were too bald for the trip), which helped to make the Turo rental more affordable.
Thanks for your comment, Ken. Always looking for Canadian winter real-world experience! Our winters are much different than the ‘winter’ range loss on a lot of videos from the states. Wondering what loss would be in like in Manitoba winters where -25C and below temps are common. I have a 100 km round trip commute on highway.
So what kind of range were you comfortably getting before range anxiety would kick in and you'd start looking for a charger? - That sounds quite stressful!
@rgaufman ya for that trip we really should have rented a long range Y. Then there wouldn't have been any concern even with the 40% drop in range. I don't recall the distances now, but ultimately Tesla had placed their super chargers close enough but we had to be very careful, not too heavy on the accelerator, charging up to 95% and running it down to 10 or 15% ... with permission from the Turo owner. That low range standard Y was only sold briefly, then they decided its range was too low and stopped selling them.
My experience with ICE cars is they don’t start when very cold. Also batteries go dead. Mercedes Benz normally probably is good. Ours is a lemon. We had Toyota before. It was eaten by rust when we were living in Chicago. My point is there no perfect car. Just the science of temperature is that at extreme cold or hot temperature performance of any machines will be degraded. You will be happy in life by accepting limitations of things around you.jb
It depends on the specific battery type; but all you have to do is view the current videos from Chicago and Edmonton Canada and they say thier Teslas which typically get 240 miles are getting 140 miles in freezing weather and charging is taking up for 4 times longer if they can even get into their car; as a totally dead Tesla has no mechanical key and all locks are electrically actuated; so the only way to open a Tesla onces the battery is completely dead is to drill a hole in it to get access to the latch cable.
My M3LR averages 258wh/mi from April-November and 268wh/mi from December-March. 20k miles driven so far. We also own a Subaru Forester but consider the Tesla far superior for cold or icy weather. Traction is incredible
Appreciate your analysis regarding range and temperatures. However, I live in an area (Alberta) where temperatures often dip to minus 30 and colder -45 this past week.We are an oil and gas province (the Texas of Canada). I’m having a really hard time seeing current batteries standing up to our environment. I operated, diesel electric and appreciate its advantages. Edmonton to Alaska proven test run in -30 to -40 could convince me.
If you're using between 10% and 90%, that puts your range at 100 miles. If after 3 years of ownership, your battery degradation is 12% that's down to 90 miles. If you want to leave an extra 20 miles to avoid range anxiety, that's a winter range of around 70 miles before you're looking for a charger. Is that not difficult to live with?
@@DigiDriftZone IF you're coming from a hybrid car or something like a toyota, honda, or hyundai that's pretty trash. People are used to 550+miles in winter. I may not have to stop for a week and a half in one of those but a tesla is daily stops. I sold mine after 1 chicago winter. It's a great car for southerners, but awful if you have to drive daily in winters.
Interesting analysis, matches my experience quite well in most areas. Two little comments though: 1) On the door handles: In the Model S the "trick" does unfortunately not work, and I repeatedly had to use small screwdrivers to break ice loose that formed on the top of the handle, keeping it from sliding out. Pre heating the cabin doesn't change that either, as this part is not heated. And 2) Regarding the heat pump: If Bjorn is correct with his measurements that would mean a 1,5 kWh loss in 3 hours. With a best case scenario of 150 Wh/km (sorry, I am European...) that would translate to a loss of 10 km of range in 3 hours. With the winter average of 200 Wh/km that I actually get in my Model S it translates to just 7 km of actual range loss. If that is all the difference the heat pump makes, then I don't have a major issue not having one...
Good point. Although, I know the car uses a lot of energy heating the battery if your destination is a Supercharger. Maybe, the heat pump does better with that?
@@willaerley7140 Good point too. Although I do not really care about battery drain due to PreHeating, at that point I am about to charge anyway. (And as far as I remember, when the range is critical, the car will not preheat the battery to ensure you will reach the supercharger.)
My experience with the 3 is the opposite of everything you said. 2020 m3 lr is supposed to go 322 miles. Not once has it gone past 276 miles, and I do not drive fast. In winter or cold days, the range is low 200 miles. Garbage if you ask me. Paid a lot and only hot promises, not results. My car lives plugged in and let me tell you range anxiety is not only real but my way of life since the purchase of this car.
I'm sorry to hear that, that is my worry about these too, I think I will hold off for now. Is there no way for you to get rid of it? Also, without pre-conditioning, at 70mph (120kph) that range actually drops down to around 100 miles. Once you own it for a few years, you also get battery degradation, so you're down to maybe 90 miles or less, then if you want to leave 20 extra miles to avoid range anxiety, that's a practical range of 70-ish miles in winter between 10-90% charge, not great :( - and Teslas have just about the best range of any EV, so how bad is it in say an Audi EV?
Have you heard anything about the man who was driving in the snow and when he lifted his foot off of the accelerator, his Tesla went out of control and he ended up with the front of the car in the snow embankment. It looks like the sudden change of speed from regenerative breaking caused him to slide into 180. I don't live in the snow and wondered if it is something I should be concerned during a trip. The clip I saw was on UA-cam.
I own a model 3 performance and yes, lifting your foot off the accellerator suddenly will put you in a slide on slippery icy roads but this is no different than in a gas car with the engine braking the car when suddenly lifting off the gas. Point is one needs to be careful when snowy or icy out perhaps to the point of just staying at home if it isn't safe to drive.
@@mytoolworld I have to disagree. I drive both a model Y and a Subaru Outback. There is loss of traction in the Y for 3-4 seconds when I lift my foot off the accelerator that is very dangerous. In my Subaru I purposely downshift and release the accelerator to decelerate without loss of traction. This is the correct strategy to slow down on slippery roads rather than using the brakes. Regenerative breaking in a Tesla is definitely NOT the same thing as downshifting in an ICE vehicle.
@@robertgalasso2137 Actually, shifting into neutral and using the brakes is the best method for EVs and ICE on a slippery road. Try it. Let’s say your going down a steep slippery slope. Downshifting your Outback into first will load up engine power into the drivetrain (even with your foot off the gas) which is fighting against your ABS. Tesla regen is much more powerful and it overwhelms the stability control.
@@willaerley7140 I can assure you that using brakes going downhill on a slippery road in any vehicle is not a great option. Downshifting into the appropriate gear in an ICE vehicle, depending on one's speed (not necessarily 1st gear) without using any brakes unless absolutely necessary is the safest and best option. Neutral and brakes - friend, you are going to kill yourself. The Tesla problem is the lack of traction control for a few seconds after regenerative braking begins. If the traction control would kick in immediately when regen braking starts, then this would be the effective equivalent of downshifting in an ICE vehicle. This is what Tesla needs to fix.
I bought a RHD UK Tesla Model Y this year which arrived in March. I don't use the car much as we have another vehicle for everyday shopping runs. As the temperature is dropping below freezing should I have any settings set to keep the battery warm during very cold spells? Or will the battery be OK during cold spells if the car is not used much?
I have a 2022 model S long range set to charge nightly to 90%. It’s really cold here. Last night it charged to 334 miles even though 90% should be 360+ miles. It has been doing this for some time. Is this normal in cold weather?
That number is a bit meaningless as you'll only get around 130 miles or so at highway speeds in winter from 90%, less if you have multiple stops outdoors.
Have a 2023 Model Y LR. Our plan was to use only our ICE vehicles during really cold weather when we decided to order it. Finding we use the car more than the other vehicles for shorter trips because it is just such a nice vehicle to drive. Still will keep it in the garage when it is really cold like right now (lows -38 C). Good to hear the heat pump is so much more efficient! It does get quite noisy when working hard, anyone else notice this?
I have a love and hate relationship with tesla, i was a fanboy of tesla until I sat in one of my friends model 3 during last year winter. That's when I told myself, until they fix this thing to better than ICE car level. I won't consider buying one. I always look for a car that I can take anywhere I go. Best thing about ICE cars is gas stations are everywhere, electric chargers are not so make it better that way i am not wasting half an hour charging my car. Maybe in 4-5 years, I will consider tesla again but until then just keeping an eye on progress.
I drive approx. 4000 miles per month During winter months and notice my ICE vehicle mileage is significantly lowered by the extended warming up needed .
What I can't find is a Tesla range loss by weight. I'm taking my new model Y on a trip with some distance between fast chargers. What to expect is a mystery other than it will have a range decrease.
His graphs don't go anywhere near low enough. +7F is 27 degrees F warmer than normal MN low temperatures, and they sometimes stay below zero for over a week.
I have a Nema 6-20 outlet (250V / 20 Amp) and that is not enough power to precondition and warm the cabin without loosing 2-4% of range in the process. That is my biggest gripe thus far. I would lose 8-10% of range. On the standard 110V plug. Not cool. Lots of energy loss just to precondition.
As far as I have been able to determine no cell damage due to cold. There is loss of range but the coldest we have driven is -30. Don’t travel with it when it is colder.
Me watching this video for no reason after already owning a Model Y through the winter: 👀🤔 Put it this way, during the warmer months, I averaged about 200 - 220 kWh/mile. During the winter, that rises to about 280 kWh/mile. It’s a loss in range, but not enough for me to notice.
Not every electric cars care about the battery temperature in its packs. My Hyundai Ioniq 5 had battery packs between -17C and -19C and didn’t do anything do get the temp to a more "optimal" range.
The point most people don’t consider is: why does an ICE vehicle not lose much range in the winter? It’s constantly producing excess heat, therefore you’re wasting energy and money all summer long. At least the energy used to heat the cab in an electric car has a purpose.
I've always thought that a Tesla should have an insulated panel that you slide in put under the battery pack during winter to lower the heat loss from the bottom of the pack. Some will say it might get too hot but you could always remove the insulated panel. Any thoughts?
The thing is, when you’re going to a Supercharger, the car heats the battery to a very high temperature or else it will not charge quickly. Trapping that heat for long periods will hurt battery life.
I did ask a couple from Norway we met randomly on a boat in Corfu and they have EVs and love them, I don't understand how/why... can someone explain? - if you need to park outdoors, your range is around 70miles (110km), how can that be practical to live with?
@@airdaff4973 I was in an Uber (EV) earlier and the topic of road damage came up, he made some good points that his EV is indeed 2.2 tons (Kia) but vans, trucks, busses, etc are all many times heavier, so how could it be the EVs doing the damage? -- genuinely curious.
well, the problem with EV is FIRST having a reputable charging network. there were reports of some that failed to charge in below zero weather while the tesla chargers worked fine. this basic reliability really is a dealbreaker. secondly, the loss of mileage is a huge problem. losing a third of your miles that you are paying for is really REALLY bad. people work hard for their money. charging is NOT FREE. this is not efficient and a HUGE deal breaker. right now, i think hybrids and plug in hybrids are the best option. two motors, one fails in the weather, you still have the other.
If your battery goes dead in a Tesla and your stranded in cold weather you are screwed brother at least in a gasoline vehicle you can idle it for hours and days with heat I don't really recommend having a Tesla in cold climates due to range loss
@@CL-gq3no At these temperatures the heat pump may actually be worse than resistive heaters. Heat pump efficiency, no matter how good, scales with outdoor temperature.
There are a lot of myths out there on this and you haven’t really cleared them up. Heating the cabin has little impact on range. Many EVs show you what difference the heating makes and it is very little. Slightly more than cooling in summer, but not much. Also battery heaters don’t come on easily. They come on when it is extremely cold and driving and they come on when fast charging. If you charge at home and temperatures are around freezing or even a bit lower, the battery heater never comes on, and therefore also doesn’t waste any power. When you fast charge, however, the heater comes on AND the battery itself heats up by nature of the charging against high resistance, thus wasting more power. People don’t seem to understand how inefficient fast charging is in winter. Lastly the biggest effect the cold has is simple a reduction in pure capacity of the battery. It cannot take in the same amount of energy as when it is warmer. And this difference can be quite big, but it also depends on the health of the battery.
I was in an Uber the other day and he had an EV, that's actually one of the first things he said, look at the range, he then turned on the heating and the range dropped around 30%. So not sure what you mean there.
@@DigiDriftZone Once you have your own EV you will understand. The shown range is just a guestimate based on past consumption and assumed conditions. When you switch on the heater, the EV assumes it will be cold and that you may end up losing a lot of range because of many factors. It is a crude and conservative predictor but not the truth of what will actually happen.
I purchased my model 3 in June of 2018 and at that time AWD was not available. Even with snow tires my rear wheel drive model 3 does not perform as well as a front wheel or AWD vehicle. With regard to loss of battery life in the winter, when I first got my model 3, I would always charge my car at a supercharger with an eye on the amount of charge I would have when I arrived at a destination. After almost getting caught with 0% charge once in the winter, I would make sure that I usually would have 15-20% charge on my battery when I reached my destination. When I arrived at my destination, the battery would be around 5-10% charge. Since then, they have greatly improved the algorithm such that when I charge my battery now and it says I will have a certain percentage charge at my destination it is usually within 1-2 %. Antoher example of the many improvements in my model 3 in the last 4 years!
They do if you have added heating. You could have a heat emitter to help it out when it is too cold for the heat pump alone and not use it the rest of the time.
Own a Tesla M3 SR. Yes, winter range is reduced, but I never have to scrape the windshield because of the remote defrost. Always jump into a nice warm vehicle for my morning drive to work. Tesla 1, ICE 0.
How much range does a 40 year old Mercedes 300TD turbodiesel loose at -10F at 900K miles?? None! Its hot water heater has its own electric water pump for fast starts...
They're cheap, that's why. I'd do it too if I didn't know about EV range loss. That said, I read that heat pumps take longer to condition the cabin as well as the battery, compared to resistive heating. So when people talk about efficiency....what do they mean?
You forgot to mention that EV's do not charge as fast in the winter. Also, that the heat pump does not work very well in really cold temperatures. The range test for gas models was flawed. You DO NOT lose that kind of MPG due to cold temps unless you drive short ranges and do not get the engine up to proper temperature.
ust 7 days ago, I received my Model Y LR, but I'm disappointed with its performance in cold weather. I park my car outside, and this morning the temperature was a frigid -12 C. To prepare for my scheduled departure at 8:00, I plugged in the car at 7:30. The app showed that all energy from the wall socket (230V, 13A) was used to warm up the battery and cabin, but this was still not enough. When the preheating was complete, 3% of the battery had drained. I then drove to a nearby supermarket and back (a total distance of less than 10km). However, when I returned, the battery had drained a further 7%. This means that I had used approximately 10% of the battery for a trip of only 10km this morning! In comparison, I still own a Hyundai Kona Electric 64kWh, which has a much more accurate range estimate than the Tesla. In the winter, the Kona's preheating doesn't drain the main battery, and driving around in the winter doesn't consume nearly as much battery as the Tesla. At this point, I am considering returning the Model Y and keeping the Kona. :(
What did you end up doing? - but the range sounds about right, in winter, without pre-conditioning Teslas get around 100 miles-ish when new (a bit more if driving slow, a bit less if driving on the motorway) - after a few years with battery degradation, it drops to around 90-ish between 10 and 90%, but of course if you want to leave 20 or so miles for range anxiety, that's a practical winter range of about 70-ish after a few years of ownership.
good job falling for the FUD, and locking in your losses. the company's fundamentals are awesome. You sold during a buying opportunity. Assuming you aren't just a troll.
@@rogerstarkey5390 This is not financial advice but read up about what is happening with Elon and Tesla, about the valuation, about the legal problems - I personally sold all my stock too.
That kind of range loss in the winter feels like much more than a 'small compromise.'
When the chart stops at -14C, and it's currently -28C outside .... doesn't give me comfort.
My 2021 Model 3 with 600 km claimed range had about 250 km range this Christmas. (When starting with 90% and arriving with 15% as a safety buffer).
I like the car, but potential buyers in cold climates should know how bad it gets.
long range?
That's pretty good actually, if you go on the motorway and drive at 120kph in the winter with the heating on, from 90% to 15% you're looking at more like 150km, less for a 3+ year old model with some battery degradation from normal use.
I do wish those charts went to cold temperatures (rather than just not warm). Minus 14F (instead of -14C) would be useful for example. BTW, Engineering explained is Jason.
Excellent job John!
Thanks Jon. Brilliant as always
The energy used for cabin heat is not the only cause of range loss. Just turn off the heat and your range does not return. A rarely mentioned cause is the increased air density at lower temperatures. Any pilot will tell you about the big change in takeoff performance with temperature changes. The higher air density of cool air improves lift and engine power. Denser air effects the car with increased drag. Snow or rain covered roads take their toll too.
For me turning off the heat makes a huge difference. I agree that I don’t get it all back but a I do get significantly more range with heat off.
Good info. Thanks
He totally addressed this. He said the majority of the range loss is colder batteries and denser air. Maybe also snow. Keep in mind he said gas cars get 15% worse mileage in the winter, too, and they don't generate heat for the cabin separately, they just use waste heat from the engine. Especially with a newer EV with a heat pump, you're not going to help yourself out much by turning the heat off. May as well be comfy, warm, and content in the knowledge that the vast majority of your drives won't remotely drain the battery anyway, so who cares about few lost miles?
So thank you for posting this video, as you explained the subject matter well giving great examples of how to understand range loss.
The other thing that causes increase loss of range during cold weather is cars are dirty and usually covered with ice and snow, and so it's important to keep your car as clean as possible, and also to make sure that your tires are properly inflated too.
The other thing is don't drive like a moron, use moderation during you're drive, and you can save yourself a lot of range that way too.
So about your doors and doorhandles freezing, one way to guard against that and the same for your windshield wipers, and your charge port is to use a windshield antifreeze, and spray these areas the night before the big freeze, particularly if you're vehicle sits outside and you should also do that to the mirrors, as well.
One of things I did was I went into the quick control settings and defeated the automatic folding feature of the outside mirrors that will ensure that the motor that power this operation isn’t put under undo stress during cold weather and freezing weather conditions..
So the other thing I will mention here is you can wrap your windshield wipers in a plastic umbrella covers that you can find at most stores or just use a plastic bag you get from your local supermarkets to cover the outside mirrors and the windshield wiper blades, and you can tape over your charging port, or use the windshield antifreeze to spray down these areas and that will help keep them free from freezing as well.
So cheers, have a safe journey and enjoy your Tesla Christmas box while charging at a Tesla supercharger.
Since it applies to all cars, why should it matter. Arguably teslas are more aerodynamic than most ice counterparts
4:20 It's amazing how sensitive battery efficiency (I assume it's mainly battery round-trip charge efficiency being measured) is to temperature. Tesla's NCA batteries like the same temperature range as we humans.
Very informative video John...Like the new backdrop too!
Thank you!
Awesome video!!
Merry Christmas!
Interesting, thanks for this video, and that chart was exactly what I was curious about. I incorrectly thought that the range / efficiency really only started going down at freezing temp, but now I see that it really starts to be affected at anything under about 70 degrees F.
My model YLR door handles froze about three times yesterday. I don’t think preheating the cabin helped at all. Doing the “hammer fist” thing did break the ice.
Driving the Y with snow tires is incredible. Almost like there is no snow. Actions that would make other cars spin out just result in a small amount of slip as the car just takes off or turns. I can literally floor it at a stop sign and be completely in control w high acceleration on a solid snow floor.
Preconditioning before a trip (plugged into wall + defrost / conditioning cycle (3 bacons on the application near battery) will vastly improve this loss. Regularly drive into into the Columbia River George when in winter temperature and wind varies but between 20-40 degrees, and 15-50mph wind. Without preconditioning I always end up with 30+ % loss in range. When preconditioned I lost maybe 15-20% range, its a huge difference. Without wind I can average 300-330wh/m in ~30F weather and with 10-15mph + same conditions I average 350-400 wh/mi. My poor Mid-Range goes top 130-140 miles in the winter conditions given, but in summer I hit 185-200 miles.
Im in the cold climate and I’ve noticed it’s taking 20 percent battery for about 40 miles, granted I keep the heat at 73 and heated seats on. While I dislike the range loss, I absolutely love everything else about the model y. And I feel very safe driving in the snow.
Model S heats super fast and great defrosters. Summer tires are a bit slippery in the ice/snow so here in the hills of MA I use winter snow tires on separate wheels.
To drive home my tesla m3 is regularily climbing a 5km high an 5km long mountain slope. Compared to my old 4wd it's really smooth, especially going down. You are almost unable to slip because there are no too sharp breaks. It's gold.
Ask South Korea.....they found range in cold weather plummets by 50%
In Norway, despite the range drops of their extreme cold climates, it is interesting that it has not stopped them.
I believe the reason for this is how expensive gasoline prices got during the pandemic, which are known to be twice as expensive as the US gas prices.
To top if it, electricity prices are only a fraction of what it is in the US... So even at a 50% reduction of range, it is still more cost effective compared to ICE vehicles.
Maybe new technology will arrive later to help solve some of these issues to require less energy to warm up the vehicles...
I like that I can stay comfortably warm in my Tesla while my wife is in a store shopping. Don't have to worry about noise or fumes from an ICE engine.
This is a huge bonus! And watch netflix!
I had an ice engine once. It melted.
Bot
Yep. Bot. Modern ICE cars are incredibly quiet and you feel zero shake while parked. And no fumes are smelled at all.
If you can smell fumes from the engine, you should probably to see how rich it's running lol
To be fair ICE vehicles lose significant range in colder weather also. Every time the refineries switch to "Winter Blend" my fuel consumption increases significantly. Overall my Focus ST goes from about 30mpg in the summer to 24mpg in colder weather or a 25% drop with Mid-Grade Gas.
Interesting, I never experienced this with a diesel car, I hover around 700 miles year round, it only drops if I'm in start/stop traffic with the aircon on 😂- looking at range tests, the Model 3 drops down to something like 120 miles at motorway speeds (70mph) in winter. Once you add a buffer of 20 miles and some battery degradation, that's more like 80 miles of comfortable range before you start looking for a supercharger, or about 11% of the range of an equivalently sized Diesel. I think we are still a way off from these being a mass adoption product.
The Model Y (LR or P) handles great on slushy/snowy/icy roads. The fat tires get traction on the sketchiest surfaces, so you can drive up on the packed snow on the right side to give super-considerate clearance to oncoming traffic. Even black ice is no problem if it covers only half of the lane, thanks to Tesla's traction control.
Something my 2022 model Y does that bothers me is when I let go of the throttle on snow covered roads... the tires lock up and unlock as the traction control kicks in and the car gets a little squirly... not too bad in a straight line but if you are heading into or are in mid corner and that happens the front end will slide out. First time this happened to me I was close to heading into the ditch.
2023 tesla M3 RWD with the LFP battery and heat pump. I noticed I lose anywhere from 20-30% + my snow tires - Montreal Canada
Love my m3 lr in the snow
What kind of range are you getting?
Good analysis. I wonder if the MS-LR numbers are skewed lower as there are fewer MS with heat-pumps (post 2021 date).
It would seem the best option for colder climates would be an insulated battery that is able to be prewarmed, while plugged in. Perhaps Tesla will add a winter package?
I do doordash as my full-time job and I do notice a slight difference in range even here in Southern California but it's mostly because I'm running the heater because I want to be comfortable. I was running at 4 miles per kilowatt hour and now I'm running at about 3.7 miles per kilowatt hour
7:12 There are a number of possible explanations for the poorer temperature performance of Models S&X vs Models 3&Y, one being that the heat pump system, sharing a common pump among all 4 models, is less capable relative to the larger size of the S&X battery and other components.
Model 3 without heatpump: Real world I still reach the charger I do for my regular longer trips (friends/relatives). Since my SOC will be lower my initial charge rate will be higher...so the actual time loss isn't as linear as one would expect.
Driving during snowy/icy/foggy conditions means that I drive slower and therfore wind resistance drops - which incrases range again.
Range loss is real, but the impact on trips isn't as severe as one might think.
Preheating car packed with snow makes ice pile near wiper motors that is very hard to remove.
-34°C is relatively warm, -50°C bites and glass roofs get very cold and cracked when you meet big rigs.
Graph starts at -12c, That is not low enough for us Canadians., -12 is an average winters day, the data needs to run all the way down to -30. I see some information from local folks with Long Range Y doing highway drives at -30 and the range is around 200km.... that's probably getting down to 40%. What would be really useful would be numbers broken down by all the different battery chemistries. I'm looking for the ability to go 160km, park it with no plug in then drive home at -20c, Doing this twice a week all winter long. If it comes up short, then data on charging performance in these situations.
There's another comment here someone losing 35% battery from around 45 miles (72km). That puts the range at 100 miles (160km) - just! - but if after 3 years of ownership, the battery degradation is 12% that's down to 90 miles (144km). If you want to leave an extra 20 miles to avoid range anxiety, that's a winter range of around 70 miles (112km) before you're looking for a charger. Seems pretty shocking considering Teslas have the best range, how bad is it in a non Tesla EV??
I like to know two ranges, one of range when start driving with car outside in cold so cold battery and another when do same but warm battery first like (like when select track that warms battery ready to accelerate hard)
Good analysis. But I see one big potential issue with this. The average, I assume, is based on a lot of daily commutes. During a road trip quite a bit of energy may be lost just after the start of the trip but probably not so much to maintain the temperature of the Battery and the cabin. So I suspect the range loss may be better than this during road trips, where range really matters.
I have extensive (40years) experience driving on snow-packed and icy roads. I drive on Mt. Hood 2-3 days/wk. in winter in my 2021 LR AWD model Y after years of doing the same in my Subaru Outback. The Subaru is better. The traction control in the Y seems to fail for 3-4 seconds if I quickly back off the accelerator. This causes the car to fishtail a bit on a slippery road and it is very unnerving. The traction control regains control after this brief period, but someone could easily overcorrect and lose control of the car. I feel this is a major design flaw and Tesla needs to address it.
I agree 100%! The tail slides too easily with very little power engaged (especially in narrow roundabouts). There should be one "normal" and one "winter" control of traction; the latter with more effect from the front motor. 🎅
@@99BSH Try putting it in neutral and using the friction brakes when slowing on a slippery road. My M3 has a low regen setting that also helps, but I think they got rid of it.
@@willaerley7140 or just junk the thing and buy a real vehicle
@@airdaff4973 The Model 3 is a great car. It has flaws like every car, though.
LETS GET IT. CLEANERWATT
5:00 I wonder if the differences between temperature performance of the Model 3 and S are mostly reflective of the difference between 2170 and 1865 formats, or it's more about chemistry.
Something my 2022 model Y does that bothers me is when I let go of the throttle on snow covered roads... the tires lock up and unlock as the traction control kicks in and the car gets a little squirly... not too bad in a straight line but if you are heading into or are in mid corner and that happens the front end will slide out. First time this happened to me I was close to heading into the ditch.
About heat pump it works with current batteries well but there is more octavalve when you drive a longer trip then battery heats up and needs no heating and even you can get that heat and heat inside of the car so no heat lost. When talking 4680 then it is a bit different those batteries don't heat up as much since they have smaller internal resistance and heatpump becomes as only source of heating leading to smaller benefit in colder climate. But 4680 will probably have more charge when left cold place.
Tesla is the number one towed vehicle in the Lake Tahoe area during winter.
In general, heat pumps lose their efficiency advantage below 35F. At a lower temperature, resistance heating kicks in.
In the past, that was true. Nowadays, even down to single digits, they’re useful. Depends on design, of course.
9:25 "This data includes models with and without the heat-pump" -- That's a big variable -- now I'm reluctant to draw any conclusions.
True.
We have two, a 2018 model X and a 2019 model 3. Range is less in both, if you use the heater without preheating so we tend to warm the cabin up while plugged in and then use the heat minimally once under way. this significantly improves the range as it takes a significant amount of power to get the cabin warm than it does to keep it warm. Seat warmers also help out. We live in a area where temperatures are near freezing for 2 to 3 months of the year. Both cars are garage kept. Winter cost as compared to ICE is still significantly less.
What about if you need to park outside? - What kind of range do you comfortably get without pre-heating before range anxiety kicks in and you need to look for a charger?
On December 2nd, I used a rented 2021 standard range Model Y to go from Vancouver BC to Kelowna. Once away from Vancouver the temperatures ranged from -5C to -15C. From the superchargers from Hope to Merritt and from Merritt to Kelowna, it was downright stressful watching the battery charge drop. Especially going up the mountain passes. And then it was quite a relief going down the passes with the charge staying even or even increasing a few percent. But I was pretty shocked that range was reduced by the cold by about 40%. We weren't really sure if we'd make it. Our actual numbers were coming up so much worse than what was predicted when I planned the route using A Better Route Planner, which supposedly accounts for winter conditions. We also planned ahead bundling up / and had blankets so that we didn't have to run the heaters as much.
The return trip home was much less stressful since we knew what to expect. But both ways were also a lot slower than expected. Not just because we had to stop at multiple super chargers when in the summer it would be one stop, but because the charging speed in the cold was really slow.
The car itself was awesome. It handled the snowy Coquihalla highway totally rock solid, despite just having M+S tires (the bare minimum legal winter tires on that highway). And the cost of supercharging through the trip was just around 1/3 to 1/2 what we would have spent on gas had we taken our Mazda3 (who's tires were too bald for the trip), which helped to make the Turo rental more affordable.
Thanks for your comment, Ken. Always looking for Canadian winter real-world experience! Our winters are much different than the ‘winter’ range loss on a lot of videos from the states. Wondering what loss would be in like in Manitoba winters where -25C and below temps are common. I have a 100 km round trip commute on highway.
Driving in snow takes a *lot* more energy. If you were doing that, that would account for the extra range drop (affects gas cars the same way).
So what kind of range were you comfortably getting before range anxiety would kick in and you'd start looking for a charger? - That sounds quite stressful!
@rgaufman ya for that trip we really should have rented a long range Y. Then there wouldn't have been any concern even with the 40% drop in range. I don't recall the distances now, but ultimately Tesla had placed their super chargers close enough but we had to be very careful, not too heavy on the accelerator, charging up to 95% and running it down to 10 or 15% ... with permission from the Turo owner.
That low range standard Y was only sold briefly, then they decided its range was too low and stopped selling them.
My experience with ICE cars is they don’t start when very cold. Also batteries go dead. Mercedes Benz normally probably is good. Ours is a lemon. We had Toyota before. It was eaten by rust when we were living in Chicago. My point is there no perfect car. Just the science of temperature is that at extreme cold or hot temperature performance of any machines will be degraded. You will be happy in life by accepting limitations of things around you.jb
It depends on the specific battery type; but all you have to do is view the current videos from Chicago and Edmonton Canada and they say thier Teslas which typically get 240 miles are getting 140 miles in freezing weather and charging is taking up for 4 times longer if they can even get into their car; as a totally dead Tesla has no mechanical key and all locks are electrically actuated; so the only way to open a Tesla onces the battery is completely dead is to drill a hole in it to get access to the latch cable.
My M3LR averages 258wh/mi from April-November and 268wh/mi from December-March. 20k miles driven so far.
We also own a Subaru Forester but consider the Tesla far superior for cold or icy weather. Traction is incredible
Appreciate your analysis regarding range and temperatures. However, I live in an area (Alberta) where temperatures often dip to minus 30 and colder -45 this past week.We are an oil and gas province (the Texas of Canada). I’m having a really hard time seeing current batteries standing up to our environment. I operated, diesel electric and appreciate its advantages. Edmonton to Alaska proven test run in -30 to -40 could convince me.
I drove 45 mi. and used 35 % of batt. 15 to 20degrees 292 w/mi., M3SR . I usually use 210 w/ mi
If you're using between 10% and 90%, that puts your range at 100 miles. If after 3 years of ownership, your battery degradation is 12% that's down to 90 miles. If you want to leave an extra 20 miles to avoid range anxiety, that's a winter range of around 70 miles before you're looking for a charger. Is that not difficult to live with?
@@DigiDriftZone IF you're coming from a hybrid car or something like a toyota, honda, or hyundai that's pretty trash. People are used to 550+miles in winter. I may not have to stop for a week and a half in one of those but a tesla is daily stops. I sold mine after 1 chicago winter. It's a great car for southerners, but awful if you have to drive daily in winters.
Interesting analysis, matches my experience quite well in most areas. Two little comments though: 1) On the door handles: In the Model S the "trick" does unfortunately not work, and I repeatedly had to use small screwdrivers to break ice loose that formed on the top of the handle, keeping it from sliding out. Pre heating the cabin doesn't change that either, as this part is not heated. And 2) Regarding the heat pump: If Bjorn is correct with his measurements that would mean a 1,5 kWh loss in 3 hours. With a best case scenario of 150 Wh/km (sorry, I am European...) that would translate to a loss of 10 km of range in 3 hours. With the winter average of 200 Wh/km that I actually get in my Model S it translates to just 7 km of actual range loss. If that is all the difference the heat pump makes, then I don't have a major issue not having one...
Good point. Although, I know the car uses a lot of energy heating the battery if your destination is a Supercharger. Maybe, the heat pump does better with that?
@@willaerley7140 Good point too. Although I do not really care about battery drain due to PreHeating, at that point I am about to charge anyway. (And as far as I remember, when the range is critical, the car will not preheat the battery to ensure you will reach the supercharger.)
My experience with the 3 is the opposite of everything you said. 2020 m3 lr is supposed to go 322 miles. Not once has it gone past 276 miles, and I do not drive fast. In winter or cold days, the range is low 200 miles. Garbage if you ask me. Paid a lot and only hot promises, not results. My car lives plugged in and let me tell you range anxiety is not only real but my way of life since the purchase of this car.
I'm sorry to hear that, that is my worry about these too, I think I will hold off for now. Is there no way for you to get rid of it?
Also, without pre-conditioning, at 70mph (120kph) that range actually drops down to around 100 miles. Once you own it for a few years, you also get battery degradation, so you're down to maybe 90 miles or less, then if you want to leave 20 extra miles to avoid range anxiety, that's a practical range of 70-ish miles in winter between 10-90% charge, not great :( - and Teslas have just about the best range of any EV, so how bad is it in say an Audi EV?
I like how that chart goes to minus 14 Celsius welcome to Canada kids
Have you heard anything about the man who was driving in the snow and when he lifted his foot off of the accelerator, his Tesla went out of control and he ended up with the front of the car in the snow embankment. It looks like the sudden change of speed from regenerative breaking caused him to slide into 180. I don't live in the snow and wondered if it is something I should be concerned during a trip. The clip I saw was on UA-cam.
I own a model 3 performance and yes, lifting your foot off the accellerator suddenly will put you in a slide on slippery icy roads but this is no different than in a gas car with the engine braking the car when suddenly lifting off the gas. Point is one needs to be careful when snowy or icy out perhaps to the point of just staying at home if it isn't safe to drive.
@@mytoolworld thank you .
@@mytoolworld I have to disagree. I drive both a model Y and a Subaru Outback. There is loss of traction in the Y for 3-4 seconds when I lift my foot off the accelerator that is very dangerous. In my Subaru I purposely downshift and release the accelerator to decelerate without loss of traction. This is the correct strategy to slow down on slippery roads rather than using the brakes. Regenerative breaking in a Tesla is definitely NOT the same thing as downshifting in an ICE vehicle.
@@robertgalasso2137 Actually, shifting into neutral and using the brakes is the best method for EVs and ICE on a slippery road. Try it. Let’s say your going down a steep slippery slope. Downshifting your Outback into first will load up engine power into the drivetrain (even with your foot off the gas) which is fighting against your ABS. Tesla regen is much more powerful and it overwhelms the stability control.
@@willaerley7140 I can assure you that using brakes going downhill on a slippery road in any vehicle is not a great option. Downshifting into the appropriate gear in an ICE vehicle, depending on one's speed (not necessarily 1st gear) without using any brakes unless absolutely necessary is the safest and best option. Neutral and brakes - friend, you are going to kill yourself. The Tesla problem is the lack of traction control for a few seconds after regenerative braking begins. If the traction control would kick in immediately when regen braking starts, then this would be the effective equivalent of downshifting in an ICE vehicle. This is what Tesla needs to fix.
Funny that the shape of the range curve is also the same shape as the model 3
I bought a RHD UK Tesla Model Y this year which arrived in March. I don't use the car much as we have another vehicle for everyday shopping runs. As the temperature is dropping below freezing should I have any settings set to keep the battery warm during very cold spells? Or will the battery be OK during cold spells if the car is not used much?
Martin Woods: keep it plugged in so it can maintain battery temps.
I have a 2022 model S long range set to charge nightly to 90%. It’s really cold here. Last night it charged to 334 miles even though 90% should be 360+ miles. It has been doing this for some time. Is this normal in cold weather?
That number is a bit meaningless as you'll only get around 130 miles or so at highway speeds in winter from 90%, less if you have multiple stops outdoors.
Have a 2023 Model Y LR. Our plan was to use only our ICE vehicles during really cold weather when we decided to order it. Finding we use the car more than the other vehicles for shorter trips because it is just such a nice vehicle to drive. Still will keep it in the garage when it is really cold like right now (lows -38 C). Good to hear the heat pump is so much more efficient! It does get quite noisy when working hard, anyone else notice this?
Es norml
I wouldn’t sleep with an EV in an attached garage. 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
@@barackblows1942 A lot more garage fires from gas powered vehicles than EV's.
@@smackfpv You can smell leaking gas but you can’t smell spontaneous combustion of Li-ion batteries. 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🖕🇨🇳
@@smackfpv that's because evs haven't been around as long as gas powered cars you dope. Lol. People are so dumb. Proves my theory on tesla lovers.
Melting ice on doors: hair dryer not a heat gun.
I have a love and hate relationship with tesla, i was a fanboy of tesla until I sat in one of my friends model 3 during last year winter. That's when I told myself, until they fix this thing to better than ICE car level. I won't consider buying one. I always look for a car that I can take anywhere I go. Best thing about ICE cars is gas stations are everywhere, electric chargers are not so make it better that way i am not wasting half an hour charging my car. Maybe in 4-5 years, I will consider tesla again but until then just keeping an eye on progress.
I drive approx. 4000 miles per month During winter months and notice my ICE vehicle mileage is significantly lowered by the extended warming up needed .
Is that a petrol or a diesel? - I don't notice any impact on range in my diesel, I get around 700 miles year round.
What I can't find is a Tesla range loss by weight. I'm taking my new model Y on a trip with some distance between fast chargers. What to expect is a mystery other than it will have a range decrease.
But you have to add decrease of range that comes from cold and form battery life... So range is even lower.
His graphs don't go anywhere near low enough. +7F is 27 degrees F warmer than normal MN low temperatures, and they sometimes stay below zero for over a week.
10:47 I think his name is Jason.. 🤔
You are right.... oops. I had his name written down as Jason, and for some reason I said Jordan instead.
@Cleanerwatt it happens. I was confused there for a second. Lol. Keep up the awesome work.
I have a Nema 6-20 outlet (250V / 20 Amp) and that is not enough power to precondition and warm the cabin without loosing 2-4% of range in the process. That is my biggest gripe thus far. I would lose 8-10% of range. On the standard 110V plug. Not cool. Lots of energy loss just to precondition.
In Canada temperatures of -20°C to -40°C. Loss of range? Will those temperatures damage the cells? If so they are useless in Canada.
As far as I have been able to determine no cell damage due to cold. There is loss of range but the coldest we have driven is -30. Don’t travel with it when it is colder.
10% to 15%
If only there were a fuel source that had 50 TIMES the energy per lb of lithium ion cells... ohh wait
🤣
Me watching this video for no reason after already owning a Model Y through the winter: 👀🤔
Put it this way, during the warmer months, I averaged about 200 - 220 kWh/mile. During the winter, that rises to about 280 kWh/mile. It’s a loss in range, but not enough for me to notice.
Obviously you are worried about those hunks of junk
@@airdaff4973 Nope. UA-cam recommends videos, and I watch them on my spare time. Nothing more, nothing less.
Your tinfoil hat is a little crooked.
Glad you included the ICE data. This occurred to me as the weather went below zero here, and I have a Tesla Y this winter. Yay!
Not every electric cars care about the battery temperature in its packs. My Hyundai Ioniq 5 had battery packs between -17C and -19C and didn’t do anything do get the temp to a more "optimal" range.
Maybe it should. You have no regen at those temperatures and therefore less efficiency.
@@willaerley7140 I know. I was horrified when I realized.
@@willaerley7140 i do still have regen though. Let’s not talk about efficiency 😩
The point most people don’t consider is: why does an ICE vehicle not lose much range in the winter? It’s constantly producing excess heat, therefore you’re wasting energy and money all summer long.
At least the energy used to heat the cab in an electric car has a purpose.
Graph basics: LABEL YOUR AXES (graph should be able to stand alone)
Good tip. Thanks
I've always thought that a Tesla should have an insulated panel that you slide in put under the battery pack during winter to lower the heat loss from the bottom of the pack. Some will say it might get too hot but you could always remove the insulated panel. Any thoughts?
Makes sense. One downside is that it would cost ground clearance.
The thing is, when you’re going to a Supercharger, the car heats the battery to a very high temperature or else it will not charge quickly. Trapping that heat for long periods will hurt battery life.
Comments are more informative than a video
Ill still drive MY23 but teslaor Evs suck big time in colder weather
test at 70 deg F ???
EV's do not suck in the vinter!
Ask any EV-owner in NORWAY!!! 🇧🇻
Yeah they are easy to find spun out on the sides of the roads here in Norway. Easy to pull over and ask them.
I did ask a couple from Norway we met randomly on a boat in Corfu and they have EVs and love them, I don't understand how/why... can someone explain? - if you need to park outdoors, your range is around 70miles (110km), how can that be practical to live with?
EVs are a lot heavier than Gas vehicles because of the batteries. Hence more traction. The downside ? You need to change the tires more often.
Not to mention the severe road damage they will cause. If you thought road construction was bad before evs just wait
@@airdaff4973 I was in an Uber (EV) earlier and the topic of road damage came up, he made some good points that his EV is indeed 2.2 tons (Kia) but vans, trucks, busses, etc are all many times heavier, so how could it be the EVs doing the damage? -- genuinely curious.
well, the problem with EV is FIRST having a reputable charging network. there were reports of some that failed to charge in below zero weather while the tesla chargers worked fine. this basic reliability really is a dealbreaker. secondly, the loss of mileage is a huge problem. losing a third of your miles that you are paying for is really REALLY bad. people work hard for their money. charging is NOT FREE. this is not efficient and a HUGE deal breaker. right now, i think hybrids and plug in hybrids are the best option. two motors, one fails in the weather, you still have the other.
Gas is super cheap in winter thus my gas engine is cheap to run to keep me warm.
Tesla is much better in winter than most other evs, many evs don't come with heat pumps, all Tesla do.
Check out the ColdEnvy UA-cam channel for more information about using a Tesla in very cold temperatures.
-20°f .. will hit hurt degradation over time
If your battery goes dead in a Tesla and your stranded in cold weather you are screwed brother at least in a gasoline vehicle you can idle it for hours and days with heat I don't really recommend having a Tesla in cold climates due to range loss
You can't idle a gasoline car if it goes dead. What do you even mean?
im in saskatchewan on my 2nd tesla yes they suck in winter
wonder how much the range decreases
Heat pump model or no?
@@CL-gq3no At these temperatures the heat pump may actually be worse than resistive heaters. Heat pump efficiency, no matter how good, scales with outdoor temperature.
No
There are a lot of myths out there on this and you haven’t really cleared them up. Heating the cabin has little impact on range. Many EVs show you what difference the heating makes and it is very little. Slightly more than cooling in summer, but not much. Also battery heaters don’t come on easily. They come on when it is extremely cold and driving and they come on when fast charging. If you charge at home and temperatures are around freezing or even a bit lower, the battery heater never comes on, and therefore also doesn’t waste any power. When you fast charge, however, the heater comes on AND the battery itself heats up by nature of the charging against high resistance, thus wasting more power. People don’t seem to understand how inefficient fast charging is in winter. Lastly the biggest effect the cold has is simple a reduction in pure capacity of the battery. It cannot take in the same amount of energy as when it is warmer. And this difference can be quite big, but it also depends on the health of the battery.
I was in an Uber the other day and he had an EV, that's actually one of the first things he said, look at the range, he then turned on the heating and the range dropped around 30%. So not sure what you mean there.
@@DigiDriftZone Once you have your own EV you will understand. The shown range is just a guestimate based on past consumption and assumed conditions. When you switch on the heater, the EV assumes it will be cold and that you may end up losing a lot of range because of many factors. It is a crude and conservative predictor but not the truth of what will actually happen.
I tell you what suck...FSD...😆
I purchased my model 3 in June of 2018 and at that time AWD was not available. Even with snow tires my rear wheel drive model 3 does not perform as well as a front wheel or AWD vehicle. With regard to loss of battery life in the winter, when I first got my model 3, I would always charge my car at a supercharger with an eye on the amount of charge I would have when I arrived at a destination. After almost getting caught with 0% charge once in the winter, I would make sure that I usually would have 15-20% charge on my battery when I reached my destination. When I arrived at my destination, the battery would be around 5-10% charge. Since then, they have greatly improved the algorithm such that when I charge my battery now and it says I will have a certain percentage charge at my destination it is usually within 1-2 %. Antoher example of the many improvements in my model 3 in the last 4 years!
heat pump does not work well in real cold
They do if you have added heating. You could have a heat emitter to help it out when it is too cold for the heat pump alone and not use it the rest of the time.
What Tesla model do you own?
My heat pump works plenty well in the cold
Own a Tesla M3 SR.
Yes, winter range is reduced, but I never have to scrape the windshield because of the remote defrost.
Always jump into a nice warm vehicle for my morning drive to work.
Tesla 1, ICE 0.
You can get remote start for any car you dope.
Non EVs had cabin preheat options for decades :)
Door handles: silicone lubricant. Example: Jigaloo. Door seals.
How much range does a 40 year old Mercedes 300TD turbodiesel loose at -10F at 900K miles??
None!
Its hot water heater has its own electric water pump for fast starts...
You lose range due to more air resistance, and you lose range while pre-heating the car.
Wow, so with an old tesla in the cold you could lose almost 60% of your range? Why are people buying these again?
They're cheap, that's why. I'd do it too if I didn't know about EV range loss. That said, I read that heat pumps take longer to condition the cabin as well as the battery, compared to resistive heating. So when people talk about efficiency....what do they mean?
You forgot to mention that EV's do not charge as fast in the winter. Also, that the heat pump does not work very well in really cold temperatures. The range test for gas models was flawed. You DO NOT lose that kind of MPG due to cold temps unless you drive short ranges and do not get the engine up to proper temperature.
The issues of driving ICE in ice are Much worse! It has been below -30C here in Calgary Canada for a week and my Mazda 5 isn't doing well!
ust 7 days ago, I received my Model Y LR, but I'm disappointed with its performance in cold weather.
I park my car outside, and this morning the temperature was a frigid -12 C. To prepare for my scheduled departure at 8:00, I plugged in the car at 7:30. The app showed that all energy from the wall socket (230V, 13A) was used to warm up the battery and cabin, but this was still not enough. When the preheating was complete, 3% of the battery had drained. I then drove to a nearby supermarket and back (a total distance of less than 10km). However, when I returned, the battery had drained a further 7%. This means that I had used approximately 10% of the battery for a trip of only 10km this morning!
In comparison, I still own a Hyundai Kona Electric 64kWh, which has a much more accurate range estimate than the Tesla. In the winter, the Kona's preheating doesn't drain the main battery, and driving around in the winter doesn't consume nearly as much battery as the Tesla. At this point, I am considering returning the Model Y and keeping the Kona. :(
Why didn't you keep it plugged in overnight?
What did you end up doing? - but the range sounds about right, in winter, without pre-conditioning Teslas get around 100 miles-ish when new (a bit more if driving slow, a bit less if driving on the motorway) - after a few years with battery degradation, it drops to around 90-ish between 10 and 90%, but of course if you want to leave 20 or so miles for range anxiety, that's a practical winter range of about 70-ish after a few years of ownership.
Cold weather wouldn't be a problem since I would be too embarrassed to drive a tesla these days. Sold my stock; done with the musk crazy.
good job falling for the FUD, and locking in your losses. the company's fundamentals are awesome. You sold during a buying opportunity. Assuming you aren't just a troll.
I hope you lost money
Good thing. Get out before this company is bankrupt. I hear lots of people are "pulling the plug" on tesla
@@rogerstarkey5390 This is not financial advice but read up about what is happening with Elon and Tesla, about the valuation, about the legal problems - I personally sold all my stock too.
Sell it. And stocks will crash. They only work down south. Cabs fill up with dust on gravel roads