The £200 Vintage Synth Challenge!
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- I've been getting the same challenge put to me frequently; can you show us what you could do with some cheap vintage gear.
I've been on the lookout for suitable contenders and I snagged a Korg SuperDrums (DDM-110) a while back and a Korg DW-6000 recently.
I set the max budget for this to £200 and these pair cost a total of £190, so I thought that matched the criteria in a world where vintage synths can cost thousands or tens of thousands!
0:00 Intro Jam & Setup
1:22 Processing the Super Drums
5:07 Working with the DW-6000
8:31 End result / Mini Song
9:56 Summary of thoughts
More details for the nerds:
The Super Drums were designed to be as affordable as possible at a time when programmable, digital drum machines were still very expensive. In 1983 the LinnDrum was listed as £2,650 here: www.muzines.co.uk/articles/lin...
That's £9,500 in today's money, and so the £229 (£780 today) DDM-110 was obviously going to have to be heavily compromised.
With 9 uneditable samples (8 bit / 15.625kHz*) and with only din sync and no mixer or individual outs, this unit is a challenge to say the least.
*The specs are taken from Paul Bundock's "Bit-depth and Sample Rate 1984-style" assessment of the schematics from this 2001 article: www.soundonsound.com/reviews/...
The Korg DW-6000 is a hybrid, six-voice polysynth from 1985. The oscillators are digital samples of additive waves that emulated the spectra of various acoustic instruments. With two oscillators and 8 waves there are 44 unique combinations (if my maths is correct) and so that's surprisingly flexible. There's also a noise generator to boot.
Each voice then runs through an analogue voltage controlled low-pass resonant filter and an analogue voltage controlled amplifier. The VCF and VCA are a combined proprietary chip Korg made called the NJM2069.
There are two ADBSSR envelopes, (VCF / VCA), which are like an ADSR with an additional level and decay in the middle (break point / slope). The filter EG polarity can also be reversed.
There's a basic LFO ("modulation generator") with delay that can modulate the oscillators and filters, but that only has one fixed waveform (presumably sine or triangle).
There's a stereo chorus at the end of the chain to widen the sound considerably.
There's also portamento, a performance joystick and poly 1, poly 2 and unison modes, 64 memory slots, midi and some footswitch inputs.
The DW-6000 was £1,099 in 1985, about £3,500 now, so it was relatively affordable for the time, but not a toy.
BUT YOU USED OTHER GEAR!!!!!
With the benefit of hindsight I should have elaborated exactly what I meant. The gear did indeed cost less than £200 and so it was a "£200 vintage synth challenge".
Unfortunately, snappy video titles are a necessity for UA-cam and whilst that title wasn't untrue, I appreciate it could be misunderstood without further elaboration.
So...
1) I didn't mean (or say) that I wouldn't use the rest of my studio.
2) I use the same gear to process synths worth ten or twenty times what these cost, so it's a level playing field.
3) The sounds all still came exclusively from these two instruments.
4) Everything I did could be done in the DAW with free plugins, but that makes for a boring video with a mouse wiggling around.
5) The only member of ZZ Top without a huge beard is the drummer - Frank Beard.
6) I think Norwich might escape relegation this year. They seem to be turning it around.
Anyone could make their crappy gear sound great by just "adding a great musician". Won't be able to get that for 200 quid 🙄😉
@@thaJeztah What if I have 210 quid?
At the first glance it's ticking none of the boxes. But you wanna know what happens when you add some little mixer and ms 20 to it and explore some further sound experiences.
Always wondered if Frank was his real name.
The irony of Frank Beard... He's probably choking as we speak and he's thinking 'Someone is mentioning my damned name again and saying I'm the only member without a beard.. SHUT UP!'
The real difference in your material isn’t so much the equipment, it’s your raw talent. It’s your songs and arrangements.
Yes, this is usually true. Dammit.
Effects
The front panel on that Korg always reminds me of a stitch pattern guide on a sewing machine
It's not what you have, it's what you do with it.
Good music is good music, irrespective of how it's made.
I had a dw6000 back in the 90s. I was severely envious of my buddy who had the dw8000 that had an arpeggiator. He also had the superdrums, wasn't envious of that.
Haha, yeah. The Super Drums was pretty heavily compromised in order to be affordable.
DW-8000 - I have that lined up for the future. Look forward to trying it.
Its irritating that the ex8000 doesnt have it either
@@AlexBallMusic I had to pause the video to try that program up trick on my DW8000. Ran a LFO from the modular in an it worked like a charm.
Often the big difference between the cheap and expensive ones is the cheaper ones need more FX, layering and EQ. Sometimes there are engine differences that one will do than another won't (oscillator sync, ring mod, PWM and so on). But you can make a turd of a synth sound reasonable if you're prepared to put the effort in.
Yep, the DW is a bit lumpy prior to compression and EQ. Needs FX too!
Cheap/limited synths with decent FX are wildly underrated. My SH-1000 is pretty lame on it's own but run it through some pedals and it's a magical synth.
@@rietheguyschannel The sawtooth on the SH-1000 is proper good though. So throaty. But the higher waves...yeah, quite cheesy. :)
@@AlexBallMusic oh it can makes some great sounds, just not very many.
@@AlexBallMusic The Poly800 doesn't, and it's an even smaller engine and even cheaper synth. I used to have one, and remember programming the intro sound sequence for 'Heartbeat City' by The Cars, and it sounding plenty better than whatever Greg Hawkes had used, particularly live (!). It actually sounded better than, cause the internal Poly800 chorus / delay (sort of like the fx featured on NI's Prophet 5 plugin) was just phenomenal - a gimmick, but phenomenally lush sounding.
I had the Poly800 with black keys too, cause it was goth times innit.
Must say I used to have a Juno 60 for years -exchanged my DX7iis for a Juno 60, Moog Prodigy and the Poly 800 back when-, and yes, the Juno chorus is awesome, but to be perfect it should have had that cheap Poly800 delay fitted in there. And MIDI. And a cigarette holder.
That's a **fantastic song** by the way, My Own Reflection.
I want that bassline lol.
I noticed quite quickly that micro managing songs together in Ableton never gave any results and I wasn't having fun. As soon as I pick simpler things or limit myself into a more confined workflow, things get fun and I get nice surprises. This usually involves hardware for me. These limitations are fun and very rewarding, instead of being stuck in mouse-driven DAW projects.
I love the phasing introduced by the EQ on the Snare. So dreamy. And I love the sequencer trigger idea, supercool.
Cheers. That drum machine is quite the challenge!
Trigger - I've since discovered that the bank hold button limits the programme up changes to one bank. As a bank holds eight patches and there are eight waves available I can setup a little wavetable if I plan it out. Will have to try it out...and then run it through an obscure soviet wire recorder. ;)
@@AlexBallMusic Lol at the wire recorder.
Alex: "Let's make a little mini-song"
Proceeds to play the dopest banger of 2022.
Thank you :)
I agree. That's an awesome track. The harmonies remind me of the kind of stuff Bibio does. Amazing.
@@SockSockson Well now I have to look in to this Bibio person. :)
Yeah I enjoyed that track!
Concuring hands down ...
I started out in the 80s with just a Pro-One, a DR 110, a mono cassette radio and the living room hi-fi that had L-R inputs to the tape deck. Bouncing down and adding a layer each time quickly teaches you how to plan ahead and avoid mistakes.
These will probably be all valued twice as much now thanks to Alex’s sick jam!
Value has shot up at least 67p already! Might hit £5 by the weekend.
@@AlexBallMusic Damn! If this were the stock market, you'd make Warren Buffet look like a lame noobie ;)
Super drums giving me strong sonic the hedgehog vibes.
Haha! Yes!
There’s probably some ointment for that.
Haha that’s exactly it
Your take on melody is so unique. Seriously. It's kind of aggravating, simply because the majority of it is stuff I wouldn't have ever thought of. (Of course, I'm also just flatly terrible at lyrics)
Well done, sneaking in that old, lesser-known Beatles song "Back in the A.D.B.S.S.R" into your video!!
Using the sequencer to rapidly switch patches in-time is next-level. Brilliant!
Damn...I know the DW-6000 waveforms are built into the microkorg, but the DW's filter sounds SO much more juicy 😳
And different output stage and analog chorus so it will sound much different.
So I kinda love the DW-6000 now. I want to try picking one of those up.
Alex, you capture the feeling of the 80s so well, not only with the music composition but including some old VHS footage to go along. I was transported immediately to my middle school days, and brought up a long buried nostalgia from my childhood days. Thank you.
It's always nice to see a DW-6000 getting work.
Played on friends DW-6000. It actually does sound pretty awesome, chorus circuit uses same components as Roland stuff from that era (Juno's / JX's) and linked with ctrl controller you then have very decent allround polysynth good for all various kinds of music (especially synthwave, chill, various lo-fi retro or soundtracks). Awesome demonstration.
Yep, thought it would be awful and whilst it can be a bit anemic when you're starting the patch, by the end it can be suprisingly rich and wide. Nice filters and crunchy but complex waveforms I guess.
Very good! Brings back happy memories of me and my Atari 1040ST running Cubase (black and white on a small screen) Taking a MIDI part, copying, transforming notes into programme changes (predelaying track a few ticks), then dividing or multiplying programme changes by different numerical values thereby generating all kinds of "wavetable" sounds from the original synth part. Happy days 😊
Love it. Great work. The DW8K has been a mainstay for me for decades. Not the most flexible, but it does sound awfully nice. Really nice filters.
Miss my old DW-6000 watching this Alex. ;-) Great demo!
Better to have loved and lost...
Woaw ! I waiting for that for years ! Thank you so much ! Of course, a great vidéo
Love the low budget innovations.
I can spend hours playing with the Casio Sk-1
Not so low these days.
@@johnrobinson5672 Too right. Ridiculous.
Quite happy with that video. I often limit myself to one synth or use entirely only samples from different sources to sound design drums, melodic parts, FX - all FX plugins allowed by no synths. And you did something similar here, i liked the end result a lot.
Going with limitation to find an excuss for sound design is just so highly inspiring.
Always a lovely time when we get a new Alex video! Cheers fella
Awwww - the smiles of Matthew Broderick, Molly Ringwald and Elisabeth Shue flashed before my closed eyes, and it was a pink bright summer for a moment.
I love sequencing program changes. The MS2000 can get a similar effect, and it gives me maximum Max Tundra vibes I think
Ms2000 is a beast.
(Yes, I know the whole people calling synths “beasts” thing and I think it’s
hilarious)
My first synth was a poly-800 . I know , it's not the "best" synth in the world ...
But it's still in my heart and , 30 years later ... i still have it .
me too.
The Poly 800 is a lovely synthesizer.
Same here
I always find it funny what our ears like compared to others...
A few friends had purchased Poly 800s/ Polly 800 MkIIs - and I didn't like the sound.... Wasn't a Korg fan... until the DW-8000, and I had to have one myself. Nice to hear its little baby brother sounding pretty darn good when used in the hands of a skilled artist. Nice!
Super vid as ever. But man sequencing the program change is class! Amazing it reconfigured the voice quickly enough to make the sound work! Excellent 👍
I was expecting the lag in program changes to be too great given it was 1985, but it totally worked!
@@AlexBallMusic I think there's some sort of "bloat effect" with modern gear, which makes it take longer even though it's way faster. I often say to people that Windows 98 had software that was often more responsive than what we use now, and it's true. The machines were slower back then, but they had WAY less to do, and when they weren't crashing and bluescreening all over the place they were quite nippy.
@@macronencer Absolutely! I remember a programmer telling me how crazy efficient they had to be when the resources were so limited and how everyone got lazy when the specs improved because you could get away with it.
@@AlexBallMusic Spot on! I'm a software developer and I started my career in 1988 so I've seen it all happen :) Every byte counted in those days...
@@AlexBallMusic A lot of old polysynths can do program change sequences very musically. I've tried it on the JX-3P, Juno-106 and Poly-800. I've only ever done it using MIDI though.
always love watching you do your thing.
Starting out with limited gear back in the 80s, I became adept at "thinking about every single part... and eking the most out of it" - a useful experience for when I got better gear.
Fantastic all around. You could totally take that short song and work it into a full single; easily. Love it.
That´s gold - and the "mini" song is just beautiful!
Totally agree with your workflow statement. My first synth was a 6000 and it gave me a great head start on learning synth programming. Plus, I came up with some pretty killer sounds back in the day, if I do say so myself. In college, in 198-something, we used a Tascam 1/2 eight track, so we learned pretty fast what was important to the song and what could be tossed out. Yes, I feel that some of that old hardware actually improved my writing and arranging skills. However, OUR drum machine at the college was a DMX. Lots of fun! I’ve still got my 6000 AND I just bought another one about a year ago (the original one needs some work). Anyway, thanks for the trip down memory lane!
Love the track you put together.
I would love to see more of these, limitations really bring out great creativity
That sequencer idea was next level
Especially loved the 80's video and computer insert video, very much gave it the feel of the era.
👏
This is delightful!!
Great demo as always, Alex! Amazing how you jazzed up some otherwise 'ordinary' sounds with a few time-based effects. It all sounded nice and full in the mix.
that DW6000 seems like an incredibly vaporwave synth ngl, particularly the chimey sound you used here
6000 is great
Here's the sound of two hundred pounds of vintage synths routed through ten thousand pounds worth of other equipment. Not picking on you as I know that's basically the only way you can get a usable result. I once played around with an old Casio toy using a full studio of effects and synths worth nearly $500k with the help of two sound engineer friends. Nothing of the original sound source was basically left, but that $20 toy sure sounded great. Love your videos, please keep up the good work as I'm living in the Dictatorship of Australia were most of us are still locked up and going stir crazy without the great entertainment you provide.😎
Brilliant end result! Big fan of the program up connected to a sequencer. Thats just really brilliant!
Thanks!
Fantastic as always: Wonderful short song, insightful commentary, and some vintage gear to look at!
But I think you missed a zero in the video's title?
Quick googling and sloppy conversion from € to £:
Korg DW6000 + Korg Superdrums: £190
Ibanez RM80: £125 if you're lucky
Korg MS-20: £1000 if you're _really_ lucky
Boss BF-2: £95
Dr. Scientist Bitquest: £200
Strymon BigSky: £350
+ unnamed sequencer for the program changes of the synth: £40 (just because it totals up nicely)
Total: £2000
I'm pleased to say that I was _"really_ lucky" and then more than that because this stuff used to be a lot cheaper than it is now and some of it was given to me, but point taken.
I could have just used freeware plug-in FX in my DAW as the same techniques are all available in the box, but it isn't as interesting for a video.
Also, a point I'm kicking myself for not explicitly making in the video - I use the same stuff with very expensive synths, so it's a level playing field.
Very instructive, Mr. Ball, very instructive! (And a nice song too)
Thank you!
The cool thing about the DW-6000 is that all the waves are just stored on an EPROM, I've modified mine such that it has several sets of waves you can switch between :)
Put up a vid with some patches you created with the new waves.
Could you link to some instructions on how to do that? I’ve been wanting to do it on mine but can’t find any information on it.
Nicely done. I bought the Korg SuperDrums when they were new. Can't tell you how valuable they were initially for helping me learn bass (learning to sync tightly and groove as a full rhythm section) and then later making my own music with a Tascam cassette 4-track recorder. All those limitations, as you said, forced me to become a better writer, producer, and arranger. And the results speak for themselves. I led several bands in the 80s called Dudes Incognito, Red Gemini, and Fallout. Under my leadership, Fallout enjoyed uninterrupted anonymity, sharing stages in Tempe, Arizona with fellow obscurities Not On My Watch, To Each His Bone, and my personal favorite 80s band name: Gorby's Red Splotch. Ah, simpler times. Cheers.
Please tell me those band names are for real!?
@@johnrobinson5672 All real, for better or worse. Also all completely unfindable on the internet. That's how popular we were.
Best comment I've read in awhile. Cheers.
Great video, wonderful song
Great work Alex👏🔥🙌
The DW6000 sounds surprisingly like a Poly61 at times
I used to own a Korg DW 6000. I loved it, but always lusted after its bigger brother the DW 8000.
mate....that mini song track is gorgeous, great vid! : )
Thanks!
The program sequence via foot switch is a brilliant idea! Very interesting and creative.
Thank you! I saw that short trigger symbol and recognised it from hooking up sequencers and so....boom! It worked.
Sequencing programs is a fantastic idea! Great video with a takeaway: It's not about the gear or the price of it! :)
I've always thought you and Pat Sharp had something in common. And there he is!!
My first band used the DW &DD1 plus a Korg Sqd sequencer as basically the rhythm section. I played a 106 and CZ1000.
I love your Videos, because you make music with the gear. And so again, very cool song!
I had a DW6000 for about 2 days about 2 years back. Didn't even have the chance to play it as it showed up completely destroyed in shipping.. I was so sad as it was my first truly 80's synth. Glad to hear one in action though on this channel! Great job as usual!
really enjoyed that Alex - thanks!
Thanks!
For cheapness I use a free keyboard/synth which is the PSS680. Yes it’s a home keyboard I hear you say but with midi and an actual synth in it I love it. The drum pads along the front are not bad either plus when ran through some pedals it sounds massive.
The PSS-XXX actually have a lot of synthesis power and potential hidden beneath their "home keyboard" exterior. The PSS-480 is a full-on FM synth workstation. It's just very small.
The Pss480/580/680/780 keyboards are probably the cheapest true synth to buy and they are easier to program than a DX7 😉
@@clauscombat418 Indeed! The PSR-36 is another hidden treasure.
I had a PSR-27 that I did a video with on my channel very early on. I'd had it since I was a kid, but I've since given it away. There were some half decent sounds hidden in it, but it was generally awful. Had those drum pads too!
@@AlexBallMusic Lol...I think that was the video that led me to your channel in the first place.
I`m very suprised 6000 has such a cool lead sounds.
Lovely as always!
Cheers!
Very impressed by your song there, good work.
The intro jam sounds like the one you made with the Jupiter-8! :D Awesome, as always!
So much work into your videos 😲👍
Hey Alex - Good stuff! Very impressive. The DW-6000 has already gone up in price. Some sold at £290 but most seem to be over £400. That's the power of UA-cam 😁
I remember waaaay back in about 1987 when I got a Casio CZ-101 and that was about it. I borrowed a 4-track and had a couple of guitar fx pedals and, happy days, I HAD to be creative. Shame the 101 caught fire…
Ahh Mate, gotta love that vocal synth melodies, chopping it up for 80,s real, gorg.......
Completely agree with what Alex said about making the most out of what you have!!
Limitations are only limiting if you let them be!!
Fantastic video as always Alex 👏 👌
Thank you!
Love the song. Great video.
Oh Gawd, the DW8000 was my first synth. I loved it and I miss it! Thanks for this vid!
But he’s not talking about that model only the 6000
This is great!...I used to own a DW800 and a Korg Percussion...and also used the sync to sequence the 8 programs within the bank. The good thing was that when changing the program the envelopes were not re-triggered...so it was more like a wave sequencing...before the Wavestation
Fantastic Vid, I loved the way you used a sequencer to cycle through the presets to make modulation and movement - pure genius! I recently downloaded a free version of the Kawai K1 VST and started to write a song with just that one synth having inspired by watching a couple of excellent UA-cam vids (Espen Kraft and also Bad Gear) about the K1 last year. Blending the sounds together and adding effects, you can get some pretty useable synthwave sounds. You have now inspired me to go back to this song and finish it (out of the many many unfinished projects I have 'ongoing' !!! 🙂). As always thanks for the vid!
Very informative!
yeaaah
ADBSSR !!
I love those, especially when you got several of them :D
Very cool video Alex thanks !
Fantastic, as always!! I was very surprised when I finally got a DW8000 last year how good those things sound! Love seeing you work with pedestrian gear. 👍
I also love the sound of my 6000 once you know how to program it you can get some great sounds especially with some EQ , COMP & Effects.
nice and elegant, as usual. you are my comfort digital musical and educational realm. thanks from rome
Thanks from England!
@@AlexBallMusic ❤️
Well done!
As we see there are NO excuses for lacking creativity! Nicely done video and a good gear choice as well, cheers.
Thanks Jemand, much appreciated.
8:32 The song we didn't know we needed right now :-) Thanks for this Alex!
As a long time DW8000 owner (and general Korg fan) loved this video so much!!! I spend a lot of time demoing the DW6000 and ended up grabbing the DW8000 to get the aftertouch and digital delay. Great sounding synths and there's a nice emulation now the Full Bucket FB-7999. Great observation about how working within imitations can stimulate creativity.
Hi Shawn. Yes, quite interesting synths. I'm hoping to try the 8000 at some point.
Respect, Alex. You're a great musician. Limits are fuel for creativity, a fundamental lesson never repeated too much often. And the sounds are perfect for the song! :D
Cheers Paolo!
Sounds great 😊👍
Loved the tune you wrote at the mate!
Thanks!
love the bit quest with my synths.
Good as always
Cheers!
Hi Alex, that's a lot of Korg Gear. The 1980's have a lot to answer for. Lots of work on this one as usual and entertaining. I love the Program Change Hack. Espen Kraft would be proud of you.
Sounds great - but as you’ve noted you probably could have done this with a VL Tone with that vast studio support behind this. Maybe your effects should have been included in the budget and only a straight recorder used as the only additional gear. I did a BBC4 documentary soundtrack just with a Korg Electribe 2 that cost me £120. Wasn’t amazing but the client loved it and it did sound great in the mix. So your point stands - it’s down to what you do with what you have. Congrats on a great channel.
Great chord changes and a fun exercise! This is what synth kids in the 80s were working with. Sometimes my guitar playing friend would bring his ART FX box over and we would non-lin it into submission.
If I could rate this video with my face, it would be a big smile from ear to ear. Something special about good songs made on crappy gear, bravo! Excellent job.
😃
An excellent reminder that we all CAN use the gear we have regardless of budget..!
Great job on this Mr B, and congrats on not frisbee-ing the super drums after the first 15 mins!!
Haha, the frisbee temptation was strong. Hardest part of the video.
@Alex Ball oh I was super impressed! 10/10 for patience Bally 🤣
@@krsTBedfordStudios Haha - tested to the extreme.
Brilliant bit re: short triggers to simulate wave sequencing. Back in the 80's I used to use the same concept using a TR-606 with a Pro-1, Poly-61 and JX-3P sync and advance the in built-in sequencers and arpeggiators. It's this kind of discovery that is less likely to occur when you have millions of options at your fingertips.
6:13 I love this sound.
Back in my secondary school days, the music department had a Yamaha V50 workstation synth. 8 trk sequencer plus separate rhythm track FM 4 op tone generation. It's what got me into making my own music, and certainly didn't seem limited at the time (89-93). I bought one again a couple of years ago, and whilst I still remembered how to use it all this time later, just wasn't the same magic that came from it. I sold it again (the sequencer memory wasn't working anyway, the whole point of getting it was to sequence). However, what I will say is, I nearly always start a Logic project with 8 midi tracks not including drum tracks. Not saying I limit myself to 8 all the time, but just a habit. I'm never parting with my Roland D-50 though and an MC300 I need to get retrofitted with USB storage device
The DW-6000 was my first synth, purchased in high school with lawn mowing money. In the 1990s sold it and bought a used DW-8000 which I still have-brilliant synth.
Love how your little program change trick turned the DW-8000 into a wavetable synth.
After finishing the video I discovered you can use "bank hold" to limit the progression to one bank of eight patches. I could have then saved eight patches using each of the eight waveforms in chronological order and got a neat looping wavetable! I'll have to try it as it would have been even better.
@@AlexBallMusic Wow that's a great idea. That would make it even more musically usable. Would love to hear a track using that technique.
Got a Juno Stage for €250 the other day. What a synth highly recommended!