@aquadino64 What's funny is that while PunkRockMBA likes to act morally superior and "progressive," his wife is a full on right wing Ron DeSantis apologist. I think its kinda weird to be bitching about black metal and other "problematic genres" while shilling for Ron Desantis with your wife, can't really claim any moral high ground on that front.
I've literally just started this video, and I have to say, my favorite thing about your videos is that I feel like I'm watching the POV of me asking one of my best friends about their personal feelings about our favorite niches of music.
My cut off is when everyone got a computer based studio and anyone was a half baked idea could record, and don t get me started on streaming... Music used to be a rare commodity you appreciated.
even when years ago i got super mad at elitist when they told me slipknot/megadeth are bad, i still found their music taste to be levels above the "opeth's production is what every band should strive towards" crowd. now i happen to agree with the "elitist" general position despite the hate i got (even though i came to the conclusion on a comepletely different moral framework and i think most gatekeepers have the worst reasons to gatekeep and are unironically stupid). im genuinely curious what communities you hang around in
This!! Someone in my local scene posted tons of statuses about me being an “elitist” because I wasn’t crazy about Ghost (she was a Ghost superfan). My think exact comment was “I don’t understand how this is considered metal” because she was playing their lighter stuff - later on someone played me their heavier stuff and I was like “oh ok”. Like no hate at all, just some mild confusion. But no gotta post 20 Facebook statuses about “why won’t elitists let us enjoy things” and “how dare elitists gatekeep”
I hate how people now overuse metal elitist, you'll get called an elitist it you say anything negative about modern metal even if it's completely subjective
Tbh, I've been listening to metal since 94, going to shows since 2001, play instruments and I *RARELY* come across "elitist" .... I've been to so many after parties, shows, hang outs, meet N greets, etc... it's like a unicorn.
I remember when Sleep Token put out their album, I was accused of being an elitist SO OFTEN for talking about how much I disliked the album, yet I listen to all forms of metal, and even consider many hard rock and avante garde fusion bands "metal" because to me, metal is just anything with a strong edge to it. Diablo swing orchestra? metal. Anareta? metal. stone sour? metal. Sawayama? some metal. but just because I thought sleep token was overrated, bloated, with poor composition, "ELITIST!!!"
I get called an "elitist" or "I don't like Metal durrr" because I don't like certain bands like Slipknot, Tool, Ghost or literally any mainstream band out there that gets too much press 24/7. The Metal community is full of condescending weirdos I swear.
There are 3 things that I don't like about metal: 1. "Next big thing...", "What will be the future of the genre?" 2. Don't seperating art from artist. 3. Expecting that extreme metal community will be open for everyone.
The hyper defensive anti-elitists are super annoying. I've seen so many interactions on metal subreddits that go exactly like this: Person 1: "What are some underrated extreme metal bands?" Person 2: "Ooh, definitely (insert popular band)!" Person 3: "Uh, that band is super well known. And they're not even extreme metal." Person 2: "Oh well sorrrrry I don't listen to avant garde blackened turbo crustdoom vegan melodic slamming nu jazzcore metal!" They just can't let go of that joke from like 8 years ago
Similar one - when someone will mention that a band isn't metal and people will get mad as fuck about it like it's some sort of slander on them. Saying a metalcore band is hardcore with some metal influence more than a metal band isn't a put down or an insult.
@@finestjellybeansrawlol9486I see that shit do common.E.g One person says that Slipknot aren't metal (witch is true) and then they get attacked by ten people calling them elitist gatekeepers who can't let people enjoy what they want.
@@finestjellybeansrawlol9486 right, that argument right there is what got me a long string of replies on a Loudwire video lmao. Aside from the metal news media being absolute garbage, their primary viewers and how they think is one of the other main reasons I just stopped giving those channels and types of people the slightest bit of attention.
@@DeathMetalJunkieI can understand saying that Slipknot are not a "metal band" (they do lots of genres), but how exactly is an album like All Hope Is Gone anything but alt-metal?... there is even a strong groove metal influence (and believe it or not death metal in many of the riffs) Not getting mad at you or anything because I don't think calling something "not metal" is even an insult... (many of my favorite albums aren't metal, they're some variety of hardcore or punk) How exactly do people rationalize not calling them metal? Do you just discard the alt-metal genre entirely?... if alt-metal isn't metal than what is it?... because "alternative" definitely isn't a real genre and it ain't no hardcore or alt rock
@@Sergio-nb4hj I can't really comment on alt-metal itself since I don't have really come in contact with it.I don't see Slipknot as metal,because of the lack of traditional metal riffs,too much influence from funk,hip-hop and alt rock, the metal sound being the least present one and no big subcultural link
I'm 53, and "metalheads" my age tend to be obnoxious overgrown teenagers. 😄 There's something about identifying as a "metalhead" and embracing the whole goofy shtick beyond a certain age that's really juvenile. Grown adults screaming "SSLLLAAAAYYYEEERRRR!!!!!" at the top of their lungs is fucking embarrassing and not something I want to be associated with. So I consider myself a music fan who happens to enjoy metal sometimes.
There is no such thing as a metal elitist. It’s completely made up by insecure people who care way to much about the opinions of others, and don’t stand up for themselves. They give these people the power.
So you don't think elitism as a concept exists? I do get your point about not worrying too much about other people's opinions (and agree with it)... But nonetheless, elitism has always been a thing in history, even outside of metal
Remember when thrash metal tried to incorporate elements of punk rock like inclusion, non-conformity and realism? Keyboard warriors will remain toxic until the very end of the internet.
One thing a lot of people miss about ticket prices is that a lot of it is not the bands fault. With -scalpers- "entertainment company" according to google, like ticketmaster buying up tickets entire venues or even artists, it is becoming more and more difficult for someone to do a large tour without working with said organizations. On the flip side I still think some artists could be better at going against these companies. If your so large you would have to go through ticketmaster, consider that you are very lucky, and going against these scalpers is good for artists and fans.
The one thing I hate about metal (music in general but mostly metal) is that some people can't fathom the fact you can separate art from the artist. People get upset if they find out when you listen to a problematic/sketchy artist and assume you agree or condone the artist's beliefs and/or actions
over the years ive become to realize the argument "separate art from the artist" is very divisive . to say that a person could is saying that no emotions effect your way of thinking and thats honestly impossible. yes there are bands that I like that are sketchy . I dont and shouldn't expect people to just get over it because the message doesnt offend me. nor is there anything wrong with being offended from ways of thinking . I view it that its up to the individuals and their views and experiences to make a decision if its worth it. I guess my only problem with the conversation is when people think they're morally superior over music taste but thats just my hot take.
I see this sentiment varies quite a bit in different musical circles. An obvious example where art is very fundamentally tied to the artist is Hip Hop. As at least from its roots it was expected that you only wrote your own rhymes and that you could back your claims up. Aka "be real". So in a genre like Prog rock, the music is still of course a reflection of the emotions of the mucisian, but its less so a direct reflection of them as a person. I generally do separate the art and artist in different genres, but how personal the music is to the artist is a factor for people. Which is why lot's of Hip Hop fans have a hard time separating Kanye from his music. But I suppose there is a group of people that can't do that in every community as there are still people calling you out for listening to Burzum, while the music of Burzum in no way reflects any ideas they might have a problem with. It's strange, though, as those same people will be Lovecraft fans and won't have a second thought about it. At the end of the day it's up to the individual to make their own choice. It only becomes a problem once a person deems their choice the only morally accepted one rather than their subjective feeling towards the subject.
One thing that pisses me off is that many people completely miss the mark when discussing separating art from artist because they want to think there is an objective "yes you can" or "no you can't" when it is entirely subjective. Whether or not one can separate art from artist is for each person to decide on their own based on their own comfort level, and no one should be shamed for deciding that they are or aren't comfortable with it.
bro that punkrockmba diss was BRUTAL. also every point you made was super solid. this is why you're one of the metal youtube GOATS brother. wont lie ive been called an elitist, i just hate trend hoppers and bands that seems corporate as fuck:/ idk maybe im a douche haha. never stop saying the truth man!
I’m the same way honestly I just think people that are new to metal should be shown more Elite bands let’s be honest the more you dig into Metal you find better shit….
One that kind of annoys me a bit are the metalheads (most often of the extreme metal persuasion) who seem to have a phobia of good production values. I’m talking almost anything that doesn’t sound 80’s or 90’s demo quality is pretty much accused of being “overproduced” or “sounding artificial”. The guitars and drums can bleed together as a fuzzy, indecipherable mess and the vocals a barely audible drone in the background and these people will claim “this is how Metal is supposed to sound, not like that overproduced crap where you can easily distinguish the instruments and the guitars actually sound rich and massive” or “sounding like it was recorded by amateurs in one of the band members’ basements is how you know it’s authentic”. Sorry but this whole idea that good production makes the music sound “less authentic” makes absolutely zero sense to me
There are far too many black metal elitists like this lol. I get that the original artists basically had that as their main gimmick, mostly because they were poor (Burzum, Mayhem, etc) however Gorgoroth's comeback album Quantos Possunt ad Satanitatem Trahunt is proof that you don't need dingy, lofi production to have a killer black metal album... or better yet Mgła's entire discography for that matter.
genuinely curious what album with good production sounds like it gets value from the production. i have not searched for any xd that why im asking. the reason being is that i find for example polyphia's sound to give them elevator music sensibility, make the music more accessible and worse in my eyes (for me nothing will be lost and a lot would be gained if it had more agressive sounding instruments). another similar example is opeth: if you enjoy at least popular demos and the extreme metal classics i dont see how the athmosphere opeth is trying to create is captivating. for me the emotions cannot get trough because i have experienced similar feeling by listening to something "raw and more extreme". i feel like i have to revert to the taste i had when i was younger to enjoy any of them. im really interested if you can recommend albums where the good production adds and does not take away
I’ll be honest, I do have that preference for raw stuff. I’m not really into Black Metal though, I’m more of a Death Metal demo guy. But for me it’s really just a preference. I listen to tons of traditional 80’s Metal too, and I wouldn’t exactly describe that stuff as super raw.
With metal news sites, the articles that make my eyes roll the most are the ones that put "reveals" in the title. Like I'm fully expecting an article to be titled "Lars Ulrich REVEALS what he thinks of Rob Halford's favorite breakfast cereal"
I avoid most metal conversations, because of how boring and repetitive they are. People never get enough of discussing "who should be in the Big 4 instead of Anthrax," oh, please stop. Or another example is all these Metallica vs. Megadeth debates. So, generally these conversations are what I dislike about metal.
In mainstream metal forum/groups for sure. Really tiresome moot ass conversations that don’t really matter speaking as someone who experienced the big 4 when it came to nyc in 2010.
Nearing 41 and I honestly can't believe the whole Mustaine/Metallica thing is something I still come across, never would have thought as a kid this is something I would still see people discussing, nearly 30 years later having had the same discussions.
Same way with these Masked/Costume bands, especially the "Slipknot vs Mushroomhead" debate & people are always infighting 24/7 nonstop & it's gotten to the point where it's a waste of time. You're not going to change people's minds, people are going to continue acting like idiots on the net, & it's just not even worth it.
Anti-elitsit is way more annoying. At least the elitist knows about music and has explored the genre appropriately, the anti-elitists are usually just moaning about things they know nothing about.
Facts, people just don't get what elitism is. There's two kinds, the dumbasses that think if its not metal it sucks (this is rare and as I said elsewhere, mostly a modern thing) or that if you enjoy say Deftones you must be a poser, and the latter which I identify as where I recognize that no, your tastes are not as informed as mine or Wyatts here, but it doesn't have to be personal I'm not a better person for it and you like what you like but you simply don't have enough of an education on this subject to inform yourself what is good and not good regarding metal.
"Female" word always had appealed to mainly young female metalheads because they wanna feel fit into this genre. Every girl will always have this phase. I admit i did have it but i grew out of it and realized how absurd is it. I understand young girls' insecurity with a lack of sense of belonging in the metal commmunity and longing for some sort of woman empowerment which is important to some degree but as soon as they get older, they mature up and no longer crave for gender-based inspirations. Of course, women can play metal but to push them to something that is beyond control, is kinda nonsensical. For example, kpop fandom is female-dominated. Just like that, metal community is male-dominanted. It's not even about "dominance." It's just natural that metal appeals to men more and kpop appeals to women more. In fact, you'll see more gender equality in metal community than kpop fandoms. I met more women-hating misogynistic fans in kpop fandoms than i did in metal community, which is ironic considering kpop appealing mostly women.
i really don't think there's anything inherent to metal that appeals more to men than women, at least going to smaller metal-adjacent (grindcore, gorenoise, etc) shows there's definitely a 50/50 split between men and women. i think it's just that metal was emphasized as a thing for men early on, similar to video games
@@22tfortnitevevoI think by "appeal" it's more the attitudes in the genres that led the genre to be dominated by men. I think the video games point would be the best analogy here
Shonalike made a very good video on why metal appeals more to men than to women, it's called "Gender, Power & Heavy Metal", albeit she doesn't have the deepest understanding of metal. But to put it in a nutshell, it's a combination of sociocultural factors and marketing. Metal was born in working class England and has been always held as a community for "outcasts" due to being part of alternative culture. Guess who are the outcasts that work physically demanding jobs? Exceptuating the 80's glam metal craze where everyone was involved (maybe nowadays too since the media is so infatuated in selling the image of metal as the cool obscure person that listens to nu metal and deathcore), and scenes like the Scandinavian where they are clearly not financially struggling despite not being rich, metal has been a culturally male-associated genre for the people underground. Compare that to Kpop, a surgically made genre controlled entirely by the industry, that sells cute sensible Asian boys that will satisfy all your needs.
Hot Take: Elitism is more useful than Anti-Elitism because at least elitism contributes to the development of music more and elitists tend to be more knowledgeable, confident in their opinions, and have more defined tastes that make music discussion and communities more interesting.
I agree I think we need them, sure they can be annoying at times like it’s alright to listen bangers like super hoes by funkdoobiest time and time again but like listening to bands like hatebreed and suicide silence does not mean we are metal head brothers. We listen to completely different sub genres and don’t have really much in common besides maybe your bands took influences from my genre
My issues with elitism and anti elitism is that both are issues that can be solved by not caring and listening to other people. It’s mostly something that happens online, and it’s the easiest thing to avoid. Plus if anyone is going to talk shit about you music taste to your face, you can just do the same thing back. It feels like someone tailgating a person driving in the fast lane, yeah it can be annoying that person is going slow, but just go around, you’re just causing the issues for yourself in the end.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. Whenever I talk shit about a friend's music taste, it's usually all in good fun. We always poke fun at each other and ourselves. A lot of these problems exist only on the internet.
The "sell out" thing is quite juvenile. I mean people for one second forget that we all got bills and they need to get paid. If the band can reasonably get more money without ripping off fans then why not? I'm pretty sure the labels aren't offering a 401K.
Not to mention it’s pretty presumptuous to automatically think “they just want more money” anytime a band chooses to go in a different direction. Is it really that hard to believe musicians enjoy more than one type of music and would like to explore other types of music that they like in their own sound just for the joy of it?
The concept behind "selling out" is real, albeit rare, but it's misapplied 90% of the time. Like you say, people conflate it with change or seizing the opportunity to make more money with music. Neither is a bad thing. What "selling out" really is, is when a band intentionally treats their music solely as a profit project and couldn't care less about artistic integrity. It happens but I think it's rare. And yes, Ghost is the perfect example, especially when you consider that Tobias always wanted the band to be an arena project. The new album is just straight radio rock garbage intentionally created to sell tickets to as many people as possible.
Aka 90s thrash bands. 90% sold out during the 90s to make their own black album or to become he next Pantera for that sweet money. That's why I started believing in gatekeeing and eitism
@@xNachtmahRx To be fair thrash is one of the genres that less allow for innovation without really diluting the essence of what it really is. You can only include a few foreign elements before it ends up sounding either like death metal or straight pantera-like stuff.
Biggest thing i hate about metal is that 90% of its fans will dismiss anything that doesnt sound like the only 3 bands they listen to. Very rarely will i personally find someone more artistically and openly minded.
The only thing I highly disagree is that we're the only ones using "non-metal". I've seen so many people, especially hip hop and electronic music fans refer to other music as "non-hip hop", "non-rap", "non-dupstep" or even "non-EDM". Although that's my personal experience on that regard.
It is so healing for me as a girl who’s into metal, to hear a guy talking about this „female“ thing. That word makes me feel like I‘m not seen for the person that I am but for my gender. It just pisses me of that I am scared to go to the shows of bands that I love because just the thought of being surrounded by mainly men gives me anxiety. (Sry if I said or spelled anything wrong. English is not my mother language)
I feel like metal fans can sometimes get hung up on what subgenre certain albums should be classified as instead of appreciating the music itself. A big example that comes to mind is Dissection. I totally understand the need for genre labels but when an album can be classified different ways it shouldn't really matter.
I experienced the Pantera part first hand. Some guy I used to be friends with was saying all this about how Phil Anselmo is just doing it for the money and it's a complete cash grab, and the best part is the guy doesn't even like Pantera he literally dislikes the band so it's just ironic to me that he would even think to care about such a silly thing.
I agree with what you saying overall. But also saying "I like one album more than the other" ain't elitism, it's just I like one album more than the other, that's how I see it at least
Technically I think it is It’s to a much smaller degree but simply holding something with higher value than another is saying the thing you prefer is elite to what it’s compared to .
I would assume Elitism is just an implication of having an extreme bias towards something, rather Than being partial to something over the other, like you guys are discussing.
@@simplebutnotsolongname6642 Elitism is putting something above else which could be anything. While my explanation is minuscule I still hold as such a form . Saying Album A is better than Album B still follows the definition of it . While what you’re saying is very true than the exact opposite of it (anti elitism) would mean there’s no bias in any sense , no one is holding stuff above one another.
Elitism is about putting yourself above others within the name of music. Opinion is about the music itself. You can be very picky in music and dont be an elitists if you really dont like the music. Having an opinion is not elitism. If we tune that idea to the max we would conclude that being an individuum with prefenreces itself is eltism.
Besides of the elitists and their direct counterparts, there are two more kind of people that come across annoying as hell. The first being the ones, who constantly keep calling the metal scene one huge family, where everyone's supportive of each bember of the community, and the other ones being the guys who can't shut up about how dangerous the 90s black metal scene was and that it should become as dangerous again. Like as if everyone back in the days was a proud extremist, ready to take down all those posers at every moment.
This! That is mostly the Thrash party Wackenmetal scene or whatever. Most metal heads do not give a fuck about each other, its not a brotherhood and that bullshit needs to die. Personally I can't stand at least half the people who listen to metal. They are either whiny hipsters or try hard elitists.
The weird and kinda pathetic thing I've observed in metal elitism is something I can only describe as silent gatekeeping. They have a discussion with someone in the wild about metal, and the other guy clearly has a much more broad take on what "real" metal is (basically is into metalcore or some hard rock bands or whatever). Instead of having a normal discussion like a well adjusted human being and trying to share their taste in music in response, they go online and bitch into an echo chamber about how anyone into that music is just a poser. It's just super petty. If you're complaining about "fake" metal being too popular compared to "real" metal, nothing's gonna change if you keep things this insular for no reason other than to be really pleased with yourselves for having better taste in music.
I'm a woman, but I enjoy learning about (and listening to) extreme metal and I've learned a lot about different genres and bands thanks to your content. You absolutely nailed it with your "female" rant. It's absolutely obnoxious and it always comes off as condescending and a bit degrading when metal fans use it to describe a woman, reminds me of the Ferengi from DS9.
I very much agree with what you said about the usage of the word "female" in the metal community. Though I'd say that I've also seen many people use it in a non-derogatory way (I hope that makes sense) like just simply asking people to recommend them female fronted crust bands like Sacrilege, Nausea, etc. which I think is completely okay imo but yeah I totally get what you mean.
I’m not elitist I’m just against people wearing band shirts when they aren’t fans of the band at all. I remember people were wearing Metallica and Slayer shirts when they weren’t fans for a while. It just seems a bit insulting imo
One that always got me was how metal fans threaten violence against those who don't like metal, the older I get the more I appreciate what Sam Bean of the berzerker/werewolves/the antichrist imperium etc said about the scene in either an interview or his zero tolerance column about liking the music but hating the scene because it's destructive I tend to agree with him.
I worked for a metal webzine & we just reviewed albums & shows. We didn't post any of that bullshit about drama/rumors in metal. We just kept it real. Sadly we put it to rest mid 2020. It was a blast!
Finally a metalhead that acknowledge the elitism in jazz. I have seen so many smooth brain metal dudes thinking jazz is this thing where you just play whatever and it's cool and is like this odd meter paradise and everything in metal or core that is a bit weird is jazzy... When in reality most jazz musicians and fans hate the forms of jazz that dare go that route. Fuck, just look up what jazz critics though of people like Anthony Braxton or Cecil Taylor...
@@Koraxus you mean the become the knight type guys? You know, they claim to be into prog but they are just dream theater fanboys. You never see those guys talking about Univers Zero, Magma, Ruins, Present, Henry Cow... Not even King Crimson or the more complex Zappa albums for that matter, or in a more prog metal sense: Voivod, Watchtower, Blotted Science, Cynic, Spiral Architect, Behold the arctopus... You know... They might just be POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSERS *screams in j dawg*
to make a not about the whole "non-metal" thing, alot of rap listeners do the same shit. i know from experience lol from like 2015-2019 i listened to almost exclusively rap and think that people would call me gay or whatever if i listened to rock or metal etc. Now im a metalcore fan (the gayest metal genre lmfao)
As some interesting trivia, in Visual Kei ( although that's more like a hybrid of Punk and Metal, and has its own...cultural weirdness ) often it's the guys that frequently dress up as women, often look convincingly female, and the women there dress up like men. I'm actually unsure how much is exactly 1 to 1 with Visual Kei and Metal. I guess sometimes it's compared to Glam Rock. Often even not quite metal, but even somewhere between Hard Rock and Metal. My particular favorite is Kamijo, but that's do to being a fan of Historical Fiction settings, like late 18th and 19th century Europe. But also I recently checked out Exist Trace. By yea the elitism I've heard about is a lot of my hesitation for even joining Mastodon ( no pun intended ) based metal instances. I'm technically a pianist. I have considered asking if pianists are welcome there. To offer a contrary position to softening up the sound. As a listener I feel like there's something to be said for starting softly, and then gradually making the music darker over time.
The problem in regards to this anti-elitism bandwagon is that the accusations are rarely in defence of someone being bullied, and is usually just an attempt to shame those with differing opinions into silence. Shouldn't they just be anti-bully instead? And do these anti-elitists not have criticisms of their own? Everyone has criticisms, it's just a matter of how much of an asshole you're willing to be to express it. Consider also that there are the bands, albums, performances where it's open season for all to criticize brutally without fear of being labelled anti-elitist. I've heard so-called anti-elitists rip on Lulu, St Anger, Nickelback, and that guy who did the unplugged Nirvana cover. There's no consistency, and people follow like sheep regarding what's acceptable to criticise. Be anti-bully, not anti-opinion. The distinction needs to be made.
I understand where you were coming from with some of your points, but I think most of them are all rather trivial arguments to make at the end of the day. People are gonna do what they’re gonna do, and I try not to get too hung up on it. And about that guy that complained about Pantera reforming… I know and watch the UA-camr who has Marvel comics in the background of his videos. He has something like “Meltdown” as his UA-cam handle… 👀
Yeah. A lot of the subcultural stuff I don't like and agree with you on is stuff that came from punk, probably originally into thrash. Another great video. And personally instead of a metal outlet, I use RateYourMusic. The fact that it is not purely metal oriented exclusive in any way seems to be a good thing.
I hear ya a vocalist is a vocalist, but situation I always have people that think all I listen to his death metal so when I break out some Karma Moffet, Wolf Eyes or Some HxC for example I always just let people know you don't need to be closed-minded musically listen to whatever you want. But sometimes I just use that term to let people know this is not a metal record so don't go into it expecting blast beats.
My favorite female fronted non-metal artist is Arch Enemy, at least it was the case before they sold out and got signed to Nuclear Blast. They were clearly heavier than likes of Bathory and LiTURDy.
It was so good to hear someone talk about the usage of the word “female” in the metal community. I’m so happy to be seen as just another metal fan trying to enjoy the music. Thank you for voicing your opinion on this- more people like you are needed in this world. P.S. Highly enjoyed this video. Great job.
I see your point about anti elitism and tbh all of us have some in us because obviously not everything we listen to is equally good. However, for metal elitists I immediately think of someone talking down to another person because they think just because the other person listens to uhh idk fucking cradle of filth or ghost or something and they think they have better taste or something when in reality it’s literally just music because listening to or not listening to a certain artist does not make your taste better than someone else’s. Also I usually find elitists harassing the other person more than anti elitists as someone who has been in black metal and death metal communities. Also I would like to point out that elitists (the obnoxious ones) are the ones who made the rules of metal archives and why certain bands aren’t able to get in. Rush apparently is metal enough but not SOAD? Anyway that’s my thoughts on that topic. Good video.
I will say it until I die you are full of shit if you don't realize how great those early Cradle albums are. Also, if your favorite bands are them and Ghost, you probably don't know shit about metal. If that upsets you that is a you problem, stop being boring and explore the wide world of music in general. If Gordom Ramsay says your tastes in cheeseburgers sucks when you only eat McDonalds and Wendy's, are you going to whine about that too? Tastes are not subjective, they are simply not refined and educated enough.
I have to admit I was a metal elitist at some point when I was a teenager but thankfully I grew up out of it and see how stupid I used to behave now I can enjoy any kind of music genre and also feeling free to do so, I dont know I had the idea that I was not metal enough if listened to any other kinds of music, but I guess thats the thing with metal you feel more comited to it
I do give a bit of leeway to teenagers personally. Back then I was edgy and filled with angst, and I thought I had something that made me different. So I was a big of an elitist. But I definitely calmed down over the years.
Listening to and enjoying different genres of music is like special thing in itself now...I know 'good" music is a subjective thing...and don't question about it... people don't have to listen to music to feel superior that they like better music than what others listen to... people should listen to music which they actually appreciate... people can sometimes listen to one genre their whole life or fuck it maybe 3 artists yearly...but when you are back home with a body full of exhaustion...or music is the only true friend of your life at a given moment then whatever the music is... Atleast for you it's best music 😅
I have a feeling I know which guy you're referring to regarding the Pantera thing 👀 I love both of your content but I kinda gotta agree more with you on this one
I hate the elitism/anti-elitism discourse too, but I lean more for the quality control from elitism. Older metalheads acting like fountains of wisdom is pretty awful though. I also hate the stereotypes people hold about metal fans. Not all metal fans have (or need to have) long hair or are scary, tough guys.
I can see your point about Females but I really do think it's just describing the project, and not demeaning women. Even in death metal vocals females tend to sound different than men, or if it's Gothic or Atmospheric/doom there might be a tendency to have soprano and or just female singing which sounds very different from male vocals. I haven't heard of any women complaining so I think you're overthinking this.
i'm 50/50 on the sell out one, for instance these new Sepultura rerecordings, they are pure cash grabs if you ask me, nothing to do with 'broadening the horizons'
The comment toward the end of the video made me think of the Chris Barnes drama from last year. He said he hates modern death metal and all these metal websites and youtubers act like he just killed someone. So what? He's one of the godfathers of death metal and is allowed to have whatever opinion he wants. (I'm not a big fan of CC and hate SFU btw)
First I just want to bring up the woman thing because YEEES. Like I get it's nice having the representation. I'm gay, and I like it when a band has a queer member because I feel a bit more represented... but can we talk about Ghaals vocals? Something other than his sexuality? Rob Halford and his contribution to the scene outside of him being gay and how he brought in leather from the gay community to metal? It's cool, but I also want to talk about the music. But if there's one thing to being up that I dislike, I'm actually tired of the generic metal logos where it's unreadable and just a bunch of lines. It was cool the first time I saw it. It felt raw. It really brought that bad ass edgy energy that metal can have. It was cool... but when everyone does it then it loses that edge. It's no longer bad ass. It's just the thing everyone does. And sometimes when I see a person with a shirt I might want to look the band up. But now I can't because while some are legible enough, some are completely illegible. So now their merchandise doesn't even tell me who they are. There are so many bands who took the general idea and tweaked it enough to feel fresh, but still a lot just look standard. I would love for more bands to move away from it.
I've noticed a LOT of hardcore/metalcore bands with women on vocals are putting "female fronted isn't a genre" or some variation in their social media bios because it's hit a point where the scene has stopped being openly shitty to women but people are still weird as fuck about them. I wouldn't be surprised if metal has a similar thing happen in time where bands with women in start openly pushing back on it.
I find anti-gatekeepers to be even more insufferable. I used to think both gatekeeping and the former were the same, but I’ve come to the conclusion that anti - gatekeeping is the biggest reason as to why I’ve began to have a somewhat strong disliking towards not only metal, but music, in general. I rather deal with elitists. At least they know what’s up and don’t cry and moan like pansies all the time. Sure, most are pansies, but the anti - gatekeeping is filled to the brim with them.
To go along with your point about metal elitist calling people posers, One of my groups on Facebook It is almost like a greeting to call each other opposer we have completely ruined the power of that word
Hey Wyatt. Just like you, the "Sell Out" argument pisses me off and I find it very irrelevant. As as an artist too, it is welcomed to have enough revenue to make quality art and you have to collect a good amount of money if you want to share with band X or band Y . Furthermore, if your favorite artist and/or band(s) earn(s) a good living with their art, I am so happy for the musicians in question. On the one hand, I find it Welcoming and Honoring to earn money with your art and not the opposite. On the other, most people (especially the young generations and the people who want things in a hurry) must realize we don't create artisticaly in order to become the next multi millionaire and what not. Especially when you are an extreme metal artist like me. No, we create first and foremost for the love of this subculture expression. Period. Love your videos Wyatt! Continue the great job man! Cheers from Paris, France!
I just hate the fact that whenever I see metal fans talking it's almost always either arguing about pointless stuff, or circlejerking anything that is "safe" or "accepted" in the community, and I don't know if those people even enjoy listening to the music at this point
@@Cameron-bz7ji Being theoretically able to be listened to by "everyone" doesn't make it for everyone. That's a 75 IQ statement. There are lots of people who are never gonna listen to metal, and never enjoy it in their lives. Also, certain segments of metal culture are deliberately exclusionary to prevent commercializing influences, it's quite literally not for "everyone".
Punkrockmba is my least favorite female fronted non-metal anti-elitist
PunkrockMBA is my least favourite groomer
Punk Rock MAP
@aquadino64 What's funny is that while PunkRockMBA likes to act morally superior and "progressive," his wife is a full on right wing Ron DeSantis apologist. I think its kinda weird to be bitching about black metal and other "problematic genres" while shilling for Ron Desantis with your wife, can't really claim any moral high ground on that front.
Heil Varg
@@ThatOneGuy7550cringe right wing and left wing
Babe wake up Wyatt uploaded
Wyatt’s a bro
Never gets old bro
Wyatt is the reason I get up from the bed
I've literally just started this video, and I have to say, my favorite thing about your videos is that I feel like I'm watching the POV of me asking one of my best friends about their personal feelings about our favorite niches of music.
You captured it perfectly.
My cut off is when everyone got a computer based studio and anyone was a half baked idea could record, and don t get me started on streaming... Music used to be a rare commodity you appreciated.
I find anti-elitism a lot more insufferable than elitism, just because, at least in the "communities" I frequent, it's a lot more prevalent.
I agree. I hate people who cry about "gatekeeping" in metal. If some douche calling you a "poser" offends you that much, you probably are one
even when years ago i got super mad at elitist when they told me slipknot/megadeth are bad, i still found their music taste to be levels above the "opeth's production is what every band should strive towards" crowd. now i happen to agree with the "elitist" general position despite the hate i got (even though i came to the conclusion on a comepletely different moral framework and i think most gatekeepers have the worst reasons to gatekeep and are unironically stupid). im genuinely curious what communities you hang around in
Agreed
100%.
This!! Someone in my local scene posted tons of statuses about me being an “elitist” because I wasn’t crazy about Ghost (she was a Ghost superfan).
My think exact comment was “I don’t understand how this is considered metal” because she was playing their lighter stuff - later on someone played me their heavier stuff and I was like “oh ok”. Like no hate at all, just some mild confusion.
But no gotta post 20 Facebook statuses about “why won’t elitists let us enjoy things” and “how dare elitists gatekeep”
I hate how people now overuse metal elitist, you'll get called an elitist it you say anything negative about modern metal even if it's completely subjective
Tbh, I've been listening to metal since 94, going to shows since 2001, play instruments and I *RARELY* come across "elitist" ....
I've been to so many after parties, shows, hang outs, meet N greets, etc... it's like a unicorn.
I remember when Sleep Token put out their album, I was accused of being an elitist SO OFTEN for talking about how much I disliked the album,
yet I listen to all forms of metal, and even consider many hard rock and avante garde fusion bands "metal" because to me, metal is just anything with a strong edge to it. Diablo swing orchestra? metal. Anareta? metal. stone sour? metal. Sawayama? some metal.
but just because I thought sleep token was overrated, bloated, with poor composition, "ELITIST!!!"
i take it as a compliment
I get called an "elitist" or "I don't like Metal durrr" because I don't like certain bands like Slipknot, Tool, Ghost or literally any mainstream band out there that gets too much press 24/7. The Metal community is full of condescending weirdos I swear.
This and the word “gatekeeper.”
There are 3 things that I don't like about metal:
1. "Next big thing...", "What will be the future of the genre?"
2. Don't seperating art from artist.
3. Expecting that extreme metal community will be open for everyone.
The hyper defensive anti-elitists are super annoying. I've seen so many interactions on metal subreddits that go exactly like this:
Person 1: "What are some underrated extreme metal bands?"
Person 2: "Ooh, definitely (insert popular band)!"
Person 3: "Uh, that band is super well known. And they're not even extreme metal."
Person 2: "Oh well sorrrrry I don't listen to avant garde blackened turbo crustdoom vegan melodic slamming nu jazzcore metal!"
They just can't let go of that joke from like 8 years ago
Similar one - when someone will mention that a band isn't metal and people will get mad as fuck about it like it's some sort of slander on them. Saying a metalcore band is hardcore with some metal influence more than a metal band isn't a put down or an insult.
@@finestjellybeansrawlol9486I see that shit do common.E.g One person says that Slipknot aren't metal (witch is true) and then they get attacked by ten people calling them elitist gatekeepers who can't let people enjoy what they want.
@@finestjellybeansrawlol9486 right, that argument right there is what got me a long string of replies on a Loudwire video lmao. Aside from the metal news media being absolute garbage, their primary viewers and how they think is one of the other main reasons I just stopped giving those channels and types of people the slightest bit of attention.
@@DeathMetalJunkieI can understand saying that Slipknot are not a "metal band" (they do lots of genres), but how exactly is an album like All Hope Is Gone anything but alt-metal?... there is even a strong groove metal influence (and believe it or not death metal in many of the riffs)
Not getting mad at you or anything because I don't think calling something "not metal" is even an insult... (many of my favorite albums aren't metal, they're some variety of hardcore or punk)
How exactly do people rationalize not calling them metal? Do you just discard the alt-metal genre entirely?... if alt-metal isn't metal than what is it?... because "alternative" definitely isn't a real genre and it ain't no hardcore or alt rock
@@Sergio-nb4hj I can't really comment on alt-metal itself since I don't have really come in contact with it.I don't see Slipknot as metal,because of the lack of traditional metal riffs,too much influence from funk,hip-hop and alt rock, the metal sound being the least present one and no big subcultural link
You have a nice male non-HipHop channel
That Aphex cover is warping my mind...
I'm 53, and "metalheads" my age tend to be obnoxious overgrown teenagers. 😄 There's something about identifying as a "metalhead" and embracing the whole goofy shtick beyond a certain age that's really juvenile. Grown adults screaming "SSLLLAAAAYYYEEERRRR!!!!!" at the top of their lungs is fucking embarrassing and not something I want to be associated with. So I consider myself a music fan who happens to enjoy metal sometimes.
There is no such thing as a metal elitist. It’s completely made up by insecure people who care way to much about the opinions of others, and don’t stand up for themselves. They give these people the power.
So you don't think elitism as a concept exists? I do get your point about not worrying too much about other people's opinions (and agree with it)... But nonetheless, elitism has always been a thing in history, even outside of metal
Remember when thrash metal tried to incorporate elements of punk rock like inclusion, non-conformity and realism? Keyboard warriors will remain toxic until the very end of the internet.
One thing a lot of people miss about ticket prices is that a lot of it is not the bands fault. With -scalpers- "entertainment company" according to google, like ticketmaster buying up tickets entire venues or even artists, it is becoming more and more difficult for someone to do a large tour without working with said organizations. On the flip side I still think some artists could be better at going against these companies. If your so large you would have to go through ticketmaster, consider that you are very lucky, and going against these scalpers is good for artists and fans.
The one thing I hate about metal (music in general but mostly metal) is that some people can't fathom the fact you can separate art from the artist. People get upset if they find out when you listen to a problematic/sketchy artist and assume you agree or condone the artist's beliefs and/or actions
Agree. Only, it is not even a music issue specifically, but rather relates to art making in general.
over the years ive become to realize the argument "separate art from the artist" is very divisive .
to say that a person could is saying that no emotions effect your way of thinking and thats honestly impossible.
yes there are bands that I like that are sketchy . I dont and shouldn't expect people to just get over it because the message doesnt offend me. nor is there anything wrong with being offended from ways of thinking . I view it that its up to the individuals and their views and experiences to make a decision if its worth it.
I guess my only problem with the conversation is when people think they're morally superior over music taste but thats just my hot take.
I see this sentiment varies quite a bit in different musical circles. An obvious example where art is very fundamentally tied to the artist is Hip Hop. As at least from its roots it was expected that you only wrote your own rhymes and that you could back your claims up. Aka "be real". So in a genre like Prog rock, the music is still of course a reflection of the emotions of the mucisian, but its less so a direct reflection of them as a person. I generally do separate the art and artist in different genres, but how personal the music is to the artist is a factor for people. Which is why lot's of Hip Hop fans have a hard time separating Kanye from his music. But I suppose there is a group of people that can't do that in every community as there are still people calling you out for listening to Burzum, while the music of Burzum in no way reflects any ideas they might have a problem with. It's strange, though, as those same people will be Lovecraft fans and won't have a second thought about it. At the end of the day it's up to the individual to make their own choice. It only becomes a problem once a person deems their choice the only morally accepted one rather than their subjective feeling towards the subject.
@@wyattxhim hard agree
One thing that pisses me off is that many people completely miss the mark when discussing separating art from artist because they want to think there is an objective "yes you can" or "no you can't" when it is entirely subjective. Whether or not one can separate art from artist is for each person to decide on their own based on their own comfort level, and no one should be shamed for deciding that they are or aren't comfortable with it.
bro that punkrockmba diss was BRUTAL. also every point you made was super solid. this is why you're one of the metal youtube GOATS brother. wont lie ive been called an elitist, i just hate trend hoppers and bands that seems corporate as fuck:/ idk maybe im a douche haha. never stop saying the truth man!
I’m the same way honestly I just think people that are new to metal should be shown more Elite bands let’s be honest the more you dig into Metal you find better shit….
I never really agreed with his viewpoints but after hearing how young his wife is that channel holds no interest for me
i started laughing so hard
Can u please explain I’ve been a casual viewer for a couple years and this is alarming
McKenty would never stoop to making a furry joke at Wyatt’s expense tho
The metal anti-elitists would freak the fuck out if they got to see the hip-hop and anime fanbases. 💀
One that kind of annoys me a bit are the metalheads (most often of the extreme metal persuasion) who seem to have a phobia of good production values. I’m talking almost anything that doesn’t sound 80’s or 90’s demo quality is pretty much accused of being “overproduced” or “sounding artificial”. The guitars and drums can bleed together as a fuzzy, indecipherable mess and the vocals a barely audible drone in the background and these people will claim “this is how Metal is supposed to sound, not like that overproduced crap where you can easily distinguish the instruments and the guitars actually sound rich and massive” or “sounding like it was recorded by amateurs in one of the band members’ basements is how you know it’s authentic”.
Sorry but this whole idea that good production makes the music sound “less authentic” makes absolutely zero sense to me
There are far too many black metal elitists like this lol. I get that the original artists basically had that as their main gimmick, mostly because they were poor (Burzum, Mayhem, etc) however Gorgoroth's comeback album Quantos Possunt ad Satanitatem Trahunt is proof that you don't need dingy, lofi production to have a killer black metal album... or better yet Mgła's entire discography for that matter.
@@BigChimpEnergySame for Mayhem’s recent album, Daemon. Honestly, just as good if not better than De mysteriis dom sathanas.
genuinely curious what album with good production sounds like it gets value from the production. i have not searched for any xd that why im asking. the reason being is that i find for example polyphia's sound to give them elevator music sensibility, make the music more accessible and worse in my eyes (for me nothing will be lost and a lot would be gained if it had more agressive sounding instruments). another similar example is opeth: if you enjoy at least popular demos and the extreme metal classics i dont see how the athmosphere opeth is trying to create is captivating. for me the emotions cannot get trough because i have experienced similar feeling by listening to something "raw and more extreme". i feel like i have to revert to the taste i had when i was younger to enjoy any of them. im really interested if you can recommend albums where the good production adds and does not take away
I’ll be honest, I do have that preference for raw stuff. I’m not really into Black Metal though, I’m more of a Death Metal demo guy. But for me it’s really just a preference. I listen to tons of traditional 80’s Metal too, and I wouldn’t exactly describe that stuff as super raw.
With metal news sites, the articles that make my eyes roll the most are the ones that put "reveals" in the title. Like I'm fully expecting an article to be titled "Lars Ulrich REVEALS what he thinks of Rob Halford's favorite breakfast cereal"
I avoid most metal conversations, because of how boring and repetitive they are. People never get enough of discussing "who should be in the Big 4 instead of Anthrax," oh, please stop. Or another example is all these Metallica vs. Megadeth debates. So, generally these conversations are what I dislike about metal.
In mainstream metal forum/groups for sure. Really tiresome moot ass conversations that don’t really matter speaking as someone who experienced the big 4 when it came to nyc in 2010.
Nearing 41 and I honestly can't believe the whole Mustaine/Metallica thing is something I still come across, never would have thought as a kid this is something I would still see people discussing, nearly 30 years later having had the same discussions.
Same way with these Masked/Costume bands, especially the "Slipknot vs Mushroomhead" debate & people are always infighting 24/7 nonstop & it's gotten to the point where it's a waste of time. You're not going to change people's minds, people are going to continue acting like idiots on the net, & it's just not even worth it.
Anti-elitsit is way more annoying. At least the elitist knows about music and has explored the genre appropriately, the anti-elitists are usually just moaning about things they know nothing about.
Facts, people just don't get what elitism is. There's two kinds, the dumbasses that think if its not metal it sucks (this is rare and as I said elsewhere, mostly a modern thing) or that if you enjoy say Deftones you must be a poser, and the latter which I identify as where I recognize that no, your tastes are not as informed as mine or Wyatts here, but it doesn't have to be personal I'm not a better person for it and you like what you like but you simply don't have enough of an education on this subject to inform yourself what is good and not good regarding metal.
True. I tend to dislike the anti - gatekeeper a lot more nowadays due to them being more prevalent. Most annoying.
I just enjoy what I like & ignore what other's think.
doing music for money isn't the problem. it's when the money becomes priority over the music where problems happen
I just gonna say this to most of the Metal News Outlets : I dont care what Corey Taylor thinks about anything, pls stop. Thank you.
Top 10 things I hate about Metal
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"Female" word always had appealed to mainly young female metalheads because they wanna feel fit into this genre. Every girl will always have this phase. I admit i did have it but i grew out of it and realized how absurd is it. I understand young girls' insecurity with a lack of sense of belonging in the metal commmunity and longing for some sort of woman empowerment which is important to some degree but as soon as they get older, they mature up and no longer crave for gender-based inspirations. Of course, women can play metal but to push them to something that is beyond control, is kinda nonsensical. For example, kpop fandom is female-dominated. Just like that, metal community is male-dominanted. It's not even about "dominance." It's just natural that metal appeals to men more and kpop appeals to women more. In fact, you'll see more gender equality in metal community than kpop fandoms. I met more women-hating misogynistic fans in kpop fandoms than i did in metal community, which is ironic
considering kpop appealing mostly women.
i really don't think there's anything inherent to metal that appeals more to men than women, at least going to smaller metal-adjacent (grindcore, gorenoise, etc) shows there's definitely a 50/50 split between men and women. i think it's just that metal was emphasized as a thing for men early on, similar to video games
@@22tfortnitevevoI think by "appeal" it's more the attitudes in the genres that led the genre to be dominated by men. I think the video games point would be the best analogy here
Shonalike made a very good video on why metal appeals more to men than to women, it's called "Gender, Power & Heavy Metal", albeit she doesn't have the deepest understanding of metal. But to put it in a nutshell, it's a combination of sociocultural factors and marketing. Metal was born in working class England and has been always held as a community for "outcasts" due to being part of alternative culture. Guess who are the outcasts that work physically demanding jobs? Exceptuating the 80's glam metal craze where everyone was involved (maybe nowadays too since the media is so infatuated in selling the image of metal as the cool obscure person that listens to nu metal and deathcore), and scenes like the Scandinavian where they are clearly not financially struggling despite not being rich, metal has been a culturally male-associated genre for the people underground. Compare that to Kpop, a surgically made genre controlled entirely by the industry, that sells cute sensible Asian boys that will satisfy all your needs.
Hot Take: Elitism is more useful than Anti-Elitism because at least elitism contributes to the development of music more and elitists tend to be more knowledgeable, confident in their opinions, and have more defined tastes that make music discussion and communities more interesting.
I agree I think we need them, sure they can be annoying at times like it’s alright to listen bangers like super hoes by funkdoobiest time and time again but like listening to bands like hatebreed and suicide silence does not mean we are metal head brothers. We listen to completely different sub genres and don’t have really much in common besides maybe your bands took influences from my genre
Metal is dead anyway so it doesn’t matter.
What about Metallica you know the band that still has like 13 million monthly Spotify listeners. Very under ground band that’s dead
@@nebelnebel28 bruh
@@nebelnebel28low tier bait
My issues with elitism and anti elitism is that both are issues that can be solved by not caring and listening to other people. It’s mostly something that happens online, and it’s the easiest thing to avoid. Plus if anyone is going to talk shit about you music taste to your face, you can just do the same thing back. It feels like someone tailgating a person driving in the fast lane, yeah it can be annoying that person is going slow, but just go around, you’re just causing the issues for yourself in the end.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. Whenever I talk shit about a friend's music taste, it's usually all in good fun. We always poke fun at each other and ourselves. A lot of these problems exist only on the internet.
The "sell out" thing is quite juvenile. I mean people for one second forget that we all got bills and they need to get paid. If the band can reasonably get more money without ripping off fans then why not? I'm pretty sure the labels aren't offering a 401K.
Not to mention it’s pretty presumptuous to automatically think “they just want more money” anytime a band chooses to go in a different direction. Is it really that hard to believe musicians enjoy more than one type of music and would like to explore other types of music that they like in their own sound just for the joy of it?
@@eslwgpg1226 truth
yeah, and artists across every genre “sellout” too. as listeners we may not love it every time, but yeah people need money.
The concept behind "selling out" is real, albeit rare, but it's misapplied 90% of the time. Like you say, people conflate it with change or seizing the opportunity to make more money with music. Neither is a bad thing. What "selling out" really is, is when a band intentionally treats their music solely as a profit project and couldn't care less about artistic integrity. It happens but I think it's rare. And yes, Ghost is the perfect example, especially when you consider that Tobias always wanted the band to be an arena project. The new album is just straight radio rock garbage intentionally created to sell tickets to as many people as possible.
Aka 90s thrash bands. 90% sold out during the 90s to make their own black album or to become he next Pantera for that sweet money. That's why I started believing in gatekeeing and eitism
@@xNachtmahRx To be fair thrash is one of the genres that less allow for innovation without really diluting the essence of what it really is.
You can only include a few foreign elements before it ends up sounding either like death metal or straight pantera-like stuff.
Biggest thing i hate about metal is that 90% of its fans will dismiss anything that doesnt sound like the only 3 bands they listen to. Very rarely will i personally find someone more artistically and openly minded.
The only thing I highly disagree is that we're the only ones using "non-metal". I've seen so many people, especially hip hop and electronic music fans refer to other music as "non-hip hop", "non-rap", "non-dupstep" or even "non-EDM". Although that's my personal experience on that regard.
Hello mr wyattxhim, when is the top 10 FEMALE nsbm iceberg video coming out? Thanks you so much for the content
One of the funniest quotes i ever heard was ,,elitism wouldnt bother you if you listened to good music"
It is so healing for me as a girl who’s into metal, to hear a guy talking about this „female“ thing. That word makes me feel like I‘m not seen for the person that I am but for my gender. It just pisses me of that I am scared to go to the shows of bands that I love because just the thought of being surrounded by mainly men gives me anxiety. (Sry if I said or spelled anything wrong. English is not my mother language)
Being anti-elitist is just being a humility elitist
That Finn Mckenty comment... OMF'G'.
I feel like metal fans can sometimes get hung up on what subgenre certain albums should be classified as instead of appreciating the music itself. A big example that comes to mind is Dissection. I totally understand the need for genre labels but when an album can be classified different ways it shouldn't really matter.
u are so well spoken. just found ur channel and i love listening to u speak
I experienced the Pantera part first hand. Some guy I used to be friends with was saying all this about how Phil Anselmo is just doing it for the money and it's a complete cash grab, and the best part is the guy doesn't even like Pantera he literally dislikes the band so it's just ironic to me that he would even think to care about such a silly thing.
I agree with what you saying overall. But also saying "I like one album more than the other" ain't elitism, it's just I like one album more than the other, that's how I see it at least
Technically I think it is
It’s to a much smaller degree but simply holding something with higher value than another is saying the thing you prefer is elite to what it’s compared to .
@@wyattxhim I guess so. I still don't see it as elitism really but I can see your point
I would assume Elitism is just an implication of having an extreme bias towards something, rather Than being partial to something over the other, like you guys are discussing.
@@simplebutnotsolongname6642 Elitism is putting something above else which could be anything.
While my explanation is minuscule I still hold as such a form . Saying Album A is better than Album B still follows the definition of it . While what you’re saying is very true than the exact opposite of it (anti elitism) would mean there’s no bias in any sense , no one is holding stuff above one another.
Elitism is about putting yourself above others within the name of music. Opinion is about the music itself.
You can be very picky in music and dont be an elitists if you really dont like the music.
Having an opinion is not elitism. If we tune that idea to the max we would conclude that being an individuum with prefenreces itself is eltism.
Besides of the elitists and their direct counterparts, there are two more kind of people that come across annoying as hell. The first being the ones, who constantly keep calling the metal scene one huge family, where everyone's supportive of each bember of the community, and the other ones being the guys who can't shut up about how dangerous the 90s black metal scene was and that it should become as dangerous again. Like as if everyone back in the days was a proud extremist, ready to take down all those posers at every moment.
The last dude I knew who was a “METAL FAMILY” guy harassed a bunch of women and is shunned from the local scene now 💀
This! That is mostly the Thrash party Wackenmetal scene or whatever. Most metal heads do not give a fuck about each other, its not a brotherhood and that bullshit needs to die. Personally I can't stand at least half the people who listen to metal. They are either whiny hipsters or try hard elitists.
The weird and kinda pathetic thing I've observed in metal elitism is something I can only describe as silent gatekeeping. They have a discussion with someone in the wild about metal, and the other guy clearly has a much more broad take on what "real" metal is (basically is into metalcore or some hard rock bands or whatever). Instead of having a normal discussion like a well adjusted human being and trying to share their taste in music in response, they go online and bitch into an echo chamber about how anyone into that music is just a poser.
It's just super petty. If you're complaining about "fake" metal being too popular compared to "real" metal, nothing's gonna change if you keep things this insular for no reason other than to be really pleased with yourselves for having better taste in music.
Mom can we have moist critkal
Mom: No we have moist critkal at home
Moist critkal at home
Even if that’s a jab I’ll take it with pride when being compared to him or Weindogoon
I'm a woman, but I enjoy learning about (and listening to) extreme metal and I've learned a lot about different genres and bands thanks to your content. You absolutely nailed it with your "female" rant. It's absolutely obnoxious and it always comes off as condescending and a bit degrading when metal fans use it to describe a woman, reminds me of the Ferengi from DS9.
He’s right, I do listen to a nu metal album every hour of every day 😵💫
Based
@@aggelosmanolis5689 ah, another person of culture I see 🫡😎👍
C'mon dude, if you can't crush posers, why live? 😢
you, my good man, have yourself a new subscriber. that bit about "female fronted" is 100% on point, along with everything else.
I love that you're very open minded about other genres and elso got me through many other Electronic generes
Hell will freeze over several times before Revenge softens up their sound
I very much agree with what you said about the usage of the word "female" in the metal community. Though I'd say that I've also seen many people use it in a non-derogatory way (I hope that makes sense) like just simply asking people to recommend them female fronted crust bands like Sacrilege, Nausea, etc. which I think is completely okay imo but yeah I totally get what you mean.
I’m not elitist I’m just against people wearing band shirts when they aren’t fans of the band at all. I remember people were wearing Metallica and Slayer shirts when they weren’t fans for a while. It just seems a bit insulting imo
One that always got me was how metal fans threaten violence against those who don't like metal, the older I get the more I appreciate what Sam Bean of the berzerker/werewolves/the antichrist imperium etc said about the scene in either an interview or his zero tolerance column about liking the music but hating the scene because it's destructive I tend to agree with him.
I worked for a metal webzine & we just reviewed albums & shows. We didn't post any of that bullshit about drama/rumors in metal. We just kept it real. Sadly we put it to rest mid 2020. It was a blast!
Finally a metalhead that acknowledge the elitism in jazz. I have seen so many smooth brain metal dudes thinking jazz is this thing where you just play whatever and it's cool and is like this odd meter paradise and everything in metal or core that is a bit weird is jazzy... When in reality most jazz musicians and fans hate the forms of jazz that dare go that route. Fuck, just look up what jazz critics though of people like Anthony Braxton or Cecil Taylor...
there is also plenty of "progressive" snobness though I'm not sure if I'd call that elitism
@@Koraxus you mean the become the knight type guys? You know, they claim to be into prog but they are just dream theater fanboys. You never see those guys talking about Univers Zero, Magma, Ruins, Present, Henry Cow... Not even King Crimson or the more complex Zappa albums for that matter, or in a more prog metal sense: Voivod, Watchtower, Blotted Science, Cynic, Spiral Architect, Behold the arctopus... You know... They might just be POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSERS *screams in j dawg*
to make a not about the whole "non-metal" thing, alot of rap listeners do the same shit. i know from experience lol from like 2015-2019 i listened to almost exclusively rap and think that people would call me gay or whatever if i listened to rock or metal etc. Now im a metalcore fan (the gayest metal genre lmfao)
As some interesting trivia, in Visual Kei ( although that's more like a hybrid of Punk and Metal, and has its own...cultural weirdness ) often it's the guys that frequently dress up as women, often look convincingly female, and the women there dress up like men.
I'm actually unsure how much is exactly 1 to 1 with Visual Kei and Metal. I guess sometimes it's compared to Glam Rock. Often even not quite metal, but even somewhere between Hard Rock and Metal. My particular favorite is Kamijo, but that's do to being a fan of Historical Fiction settings, like late 18th and 19th century Europe. But also I recently checked out Exist Trace.
By yea the elitism I've heard about is a lot of my hesitation for even joining Mastodon ( no pun intended ) based metal instances. I'm technically a pianist. I have considered asking if pianists are welcome there.
To offer a contrary position to softening up the sound. As a listener I feel like there's something to be said for starting softly, and then gradually making the music darker over time.
Nice ROTUGF shirt!
Edit: and Aphex Twin record.
The problem in regards to this anti-elitism bandwagon is that the accusations are rarely in defence of someone being bullied, and is usually just an attempt to shame those with differing opinions into silence. Shouldn't they just be anti-bully instead? And do these anti-elitists not have criticisms of their own? Everyone has criticisms, it's just a matter of how much of an asshole you're willing to be to express it.
Consider also that there are the bands, albums, performances where it's open season for all to criticize brutally without fear of being labelled anti-elitist. I've heard so-called anti-elitists rip on Lulu, St Anger, Nickelback, and that guy who did the unplugged Nirvana cover. There's no consistency, and people follow like sheep regarding what's acceptable to criticise.
Be anti-bully, not anti-opinion. The distinction needs to be made.
I love the ahpex twin album in da back
I understand where you were coming from with some of your points, but I think most of them are all rather trivial arguments to make at the end of the day. People are gonna do what they’re gonna do, and I try not to get too hung up on it.
And about that guy that complained about Pantera reforming… I know and watch the UA-camr who has Marvel comics in the background of his videos. He has something like “Meltdown” as his UA-cam handle… 👀
I vent to Pantera show in Budapest. It was so much fucking fun! I'm so glad that i had this chance
was that a hit at the metalmeltdown? XD
Dood, how did you get the new Aphex Twin already?! I know it's only out tomorrow, but still... NICE!
Yeah. A lot of the subcultural stuff I don't like and agree with you on is stuff that came from punk, probably originally into thrash. Another great video. And personally instead of a metal outlet, I use RateYourMusic. The fact that it is not purely metal oriented exclusive in any way seems to be a good thing.
That new aphex twin is an enjoyable one
I hear ya a vocalist is a vocalist, but situation I always have people that think all I listen to his death metal so when I break out some Karma Moffet, Wolf Eyes or Some HxC for example I always just let people know you don't need to be closed-minded musically listen to whatever you want. But sometimes I just use that term to let people know this is not a metal record so don't go into it expecting blast beats.
What's the album on the display?
The metal elitist and anti metal elitist is the best example in metal of the meme “their the same picture” from The Office.
Do a noise music iceberg
My favorite female fronted non-metal artist is Arch Enemy, at least it was the case before they sold out and got signed to Nuclear Blast. They were clearly heavier than likes of Bathory and LiTURDy.
So, you are then not a fan of Femalowar, right? X'D
Chevalier !! Awesome !! THX!!! Adding them to my Speed Metal playlist for the morning workout!!!
You remind me Tom Araya...
I like what you do
Greetings from Italy
I love these kind of videos
It was so good to hear someone talk about the usage of the word “female” in the metal community. I’m so happy to be seen as just another metal fan trying to enjoy the music. Thank you for voicing your opinion on this- more people like you are needed in this world.
P.S. Highly enjoyed this video. Great job.
I see your point about anti elitism and tbh all of us have some in us because obviously not everything we listen to is equally good. However, for metal elitists I immediately think of someone talking down to another person because they think just because the other person listens to uhh idk fucking cradle of filth or ghost or something and they think they have better taste or something when in reality it’s literally just music because listening to or not listening to a certain artist does not make your taste better than someone else’s. Also I usually find elitists harassing the other person more than anti elitists as someone who has been in black metal and death metal communities. Also I would like to point out that elitists (the obnoxious ones) are the ones who made the rules of metal archives and why certain bands aren’t able to get in. Rush apparently is metal enough but not SOAD? Anyway that’s my thoughts on that topic. Good video.
I will say it until I die you are full of shit if you don't realize how great those early Cradle albums are. Also, if your favorite bands are them and Ghost, you probably don't know shit about metal. If that upsets you that is a you problem, stop being boring and explore the wide world of music in general.
If Gordom Ramsay says your tastes in cheeseburgers sucks when you only eat McDonalds and Wendy's, are you going to whine about that too? Tastes are not subjective, they are simply not refined and educated enough.
I have to admit I was a metal elitist at some point when I was a teenager but thankfully I grew up out of it and see how stupid I used to behave now I can enjoy any kind of music genre and also feeling free to do so, I dont know I had the idea that I was not metal enough if listened to any other kinds of music, but I guess thats the thing with metal you feel more comited to it
I do give a bit of leeway to teenagers personally. Back then I was edgy and filled with angst, and I thought I had something that made me different. So I was a big of an elitist. But I definitely calmed down over the years.
" when I was a teenager but thankfully I grew up out of it "
and that's the problem.. too many do not grow out of it \m/
Listening to and enjoying different genres of music is like special thing in itself now...I know 'good" music is a subjective thing...and don't question about it... people don't have to listen to music to feel superior that they like better music than what others listen to... people should listen to music which they actually appreciate... people can sometimes listen to one genre their whole life or fuck it maybe 3 artists yearly...but when you are back home with a body full of exhaustion...or music is the only true friend of your life at a given moment then whatever the music is... Atleast for you it's best music 😅
I AM a metal elitist and enjoy music of all genres.
There was a time I didn't listen to anything that didn't include harsh vocals, cringe as hell.
I have a feeling I know which guy you're referring to regarding the Pantera thing 👀 I love both of your content but I kinda gotta agree more with you on this one
I hate the elitism/anti-elitism discourse too, but I lean more for the quality control from elitism. Older metalheads acting like fountains of wisdom is pretty awful though. I also hate the stereotypes people hold about metal fans. Not all metal fans have (or need to have) long hair or are scary, tough guys.
I have no problem with the visual of metalheads, it's flattering and fitting to the sound
I meant as a fan not a musician@@dougneon9550
Wyatt be spitting facts fr
Communities are always the worst thing about every subjects
Kinda tuned out when you started talking about non-metal. I'm back now though.
You destroyed punkrockmba now! :D
I can see your point about Females but I really do think it's just describing the project, and not demeaning women. Even in death metal vocals females tend to sound different than men, or if it's Gothic or Atmospheric/doom there might be a tendency to have soprano and or just female singing which sounds very different from male vocals. I haven't heard of any women complaining so I think you're overthinking this.
That Blackbox vinyl tho 😍
Metalstorm is my favorite metal site, great community there.
As a girl music fan, thank you
Now this is a UA-camr!!! 🤘
i'm 50/50 on the sell out one, for instance these new Sepultura rerecordings, they are pure cash grabs if you ask me, nothing to do with 'broadening the horizons'
The comment toward the end of the video made me think of the Chris Barnes drama from last year. He said he hates modern death metal and all these metal websites and youtubers act like he just killed someone. So what? He's one of the godfathers of death metal and is allowed to have whatever opinion he wants. (I'm not a big fan of CC and hate SFU btw)
First I just want to bring up the woman thing because YEEES. Like I get it's nice having the representation. I'm gay, and I like it when a band has a queer member because I feel a bit more represented... but can we talk about Ghaals vocals? Something other than his sexuality? Rob Halford and his contribution to the scene outside of him being gay and how he brought in leather from the gay community to metal? It's cool, but I also want to talk about the music.
But if there's one thing to being up that I dislike, I'm actually tired of the generic metal logos where it's unreadable and just a bunch of lines. It was cool the first time I saw it. It felt raw. It really brought that bad ass edgy energy that metal can have. It was cool... but when everyone does it then it loses that edge. It's no longer bad ass. It's just the thing everyone does. And sometimes when I see a person with a shirt I might want to look the band up. But now I can't because while some are legible enough, some are completely illegible. So now their merchandise doesn't even tell me who they are. There are so many bands who took the general idea and tweaked it enough to feel fresh, but still a lot just look standard. I would love for more bands to move away from it.
I've noticed a LOT of hardcore/metalcore bands with women on vocals are putting "female fronted isn't a genre" or some variation in their social media bios because it's hit a point where the scene has stopped being openly shitty to women but people are still weird as fuck about them. I wouldn't be surprised if metal has a similar thing happen in time where bands with women in start openly pushing back on it.
I find anti-gatekeepers to be even more insufferable. I used to think both gatekeeping and the former were the same, but I’ve come to the conclusion that anti - gatekeeping is the biggest reason as to why I’ve began to have a somewhat strong disliking towards not only metal, but music, in general. I rather deal with elitists. At least they know what’s up and don’t cry and moan like pansies all the time. Sure, most are pansies, but the anti - gatekeeping is filled to the brim with them.
To go along with your point about metal elitist calling people posers, One of my groups on Facebook It is almost like a greeting to call each other opposer we have completely ruined the power of that word
Hey man, how can I get some music to you? I'd love to share my work with you, I'd love to know your thoughts/feedback on it. I got *LOTS* of material.
Did you like the new Aphex Twin?
Hey Wyatt.
Just like you, the "Sell Out" argument pisses me off and I find it very irrelevant. As as an artist too, it is welcomed to have enough revenue to make quality art and you have to collect a good amount of money if you want to share with band X or band Y . Furthermore, if your favorite artist and/or band(s) earn(s) a good living with their art, I am so happy for the musicians in question. On the one hand, I find it Welcoming and Honoring to earn money with your art and not the opposite. On the other, most people (especially the young generations and the people who want things in a hurry) must realize we don't create artisticaly in order to become the next multi millionaire and what not. Especially when you are an extreme metal artist like me. No, we create first and foremost for the love of this subculture expression. Period.
Love your videos Wyatt! Continue the great job man! Cheers from Paris, France!
I just hate the fact that whenever I see metal fans talking it's almost always either arguing about pointless stuff, or circlejerking anything that is "safe" or "accepted" in the community, and I don't know if those people even enjoy listening to the music at this point
Combatwoundedveteran is such a good grindcore band
Is there a female fronted band like Bell Witch and are they called Bell Wizard?
THANK YOU SO MUCH for the "female" speech 🙏
What is the album on the shelf?
Aphex Twin_Black box life rcorder
Before metal all I listened to was Buddy Holly. Now I check out unknown metal bands from all corners of the world, all thanks to Radio Fenriz.
People who expect metal to be hippy dippy love everyone music
Metal is for everyone. Gamer dorks to Gym bro and everything in between listens to some form of it.
@@oopsydaizi3s824 not sure what your comment has to do with my initial comment but sure
@@akillen77read your comment it's sorta obvious
@@tanksists1971 neat NG Tankmen avatar (nostalgia)
@@Cameron-bz7ji Being theoretically able to be listened to by "everyone" doesn't make it for everyone. That's a 75 IQ statement. There are lots of people who are never gonna listen to metal, and never enjoy it in their lives. Also, certain segments of metal culture are deliberately exclusionary to prevent commercializing influences, it's quite literally not for "everyone".