The greatest songwriting theft of all time

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  • Опубліковано 21 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 3,1 тис.

  • @RayHeffernan
    @RayHeffernan 2 місяці тому +7487

    Hiya David! Thanks so much for taking the time to put this together. For the record, I've never once claimed that Robbie stole anything. I've only ever asked for my creative input to be properly recognised - as was agreed - and to find a mutually beneficial resolution to this dissonance.
    Anyway, thanks again for telling the tale, I hope this gets to the desk of Maestro Williams and that he - like me - is eager to iron out this kink in the tapestry. In Peace. Ray.

    • @radidov5333
      @radidov5333 2 місяці тому +40

      what would you recommend to amateurs songwriters nowadays, how to proceed on songs?.. recording the full of them before showing to someone is kinda challenging, specially when you only got a really good bit ?

    • @wowthisiscrazyshit
      @wowthisiscrazyshit 2 місяці тому

      He stole it, bro. Fuck him for hot making it right.

    • @KathyD-24601
      @KathyD-24601 2 місяці тому +113

      Your ‘creative input’ was recognised with an acknowledgement and a payment of £7500. As you well know, given that it was agreed in writing by your lawyer.

    • @thesunreport
      @thesunreport 2 місяці тому +61

      His crew did the same to me.
      EDIT BY REQUEST -
      So I used to make music for fun, but I knew a couple of people who had some low-level music managment experience (including 'boy bands') and I went and played them a couple of tunes.
      One of the tunes was 'Psycho Circus', which I wrote around 1992 I think.
      I didn't sign with them but continued to write as a hobby, late going to college for music, and then broadcasting.
      I think it was around 1999 that I saw that the rock band KISS had reformed with full-makeup with a new album called 'Psycho Circus'.
      Later I would find out that a guy from Robbie's band was a member of the only officially sanctioned KISS tribute band, so there was a direct connection there.
      Robbie then went on of course to do his 'Let me entertain you' video in similar make-up to KISS with his tiger pants on.
      I felt this referenced another of my songs 'Ride that Tiger', which was a stand-in lyric for the actual song 'Get You Higher', a demo of which is on my channel.
      It might not seem like a big deal to some people, but it felt pretty obviously to be a 'power-play/p**s-take' type of situation.
      Fopr example if I released my Psycho Circus song now, then I would be accused of copying KISS, when it was actually the other way around.
      This is part of the problem with the music industry I think. Once a record company invests a lot of money, then they need a return, and it doesn't really matter if they lift someone else's creativity to make themselves look better or more creative because all they are interested in is money.
      So yeah while I'm guesing Robbie was 'just following orders', his crew were nicking other people's work and passing it off as their own, or passing it to their mates, as they did with Ray.

    • @EmyrDerfel
      @EmyrDerfel 2 місяці тому +289

      @@KathyD-24601 that was on the understanding that there had been radical changes. Without such changes, Ray's version is a much larger contribution to the final released version. The contract signed paid Ray for a small contribution, not a large one.

  • @samuelodell1791
    @samuelodell1791 2 місяці тому +895

    After the verse, I suggested going to the chorus. Genius. Just. Just brilliant

    • @MsDormy
      @MsDormy Місяць тому +35

      😂

    • @wolfsisterhowls
      @wolfsisterhowls Місяць тому +66

      I think the unspoken bit here is that Robbie didn't think to go to the chorus himself. A frequent theme in Chambers interviews is how little Robbie knew about songwriting for the first few years of their collaborations and how once he had some knowledge later they had a power struggle for creative control. This snippet seems to suggest Robbie was so green and incompetent that he couldn't even come to the obvious next step, not that Guy was such a genius in suggesting the obvious next step.

    • @DOGOID
      @DOGOID Місяць тому +19

      The point is that there was no chorus at all, just the first verse, the chorus of Angels was entirely created by Chambers.

    • @Sthuont
      @Sthuont Місяць тому +5

      Honestly though... verse to chorus songs are meh. Verse to bridge/prechorus, now that is something. The more complexity and components within a song, the better it usually is. Mies van der Rohe was wrong; more is more!

    • @colerintoul4110
      @colerintoul4110 Місяць тому +2

      hahaha- how did he know to do this??????? insane talent!

  • @spookym123
    @spookym123 Місяць тому +680

    Hearing directly from Robbie the way he treated Ray when he showed up at his door said a lot about Robbie. What a crushing experience for Raymond.

    • @NikkiNastee
      @NikkiNastee Місяць тому

      I love Robbie as an artist but he's a sh!tty human. Even though he sobered up he could still compensate Ray for the song a more appropriate sum but he chooses not to which means he's STILL sh!te.

    • @Alex-kh8np
      @Alex-kh8np Місяць тому +43

      If you have to to go look for someone and knock on their door, you probably are not invited though...
      Sounds like a guy who was clearly down and out, who had a chance meeting that he wanted to turn into success and Robbie was not on the same page.
      He could have called the police, but he effectively refunded him and told him firmly, you cant do this mate...

    • @JosephNewton-ne1iy
      @JosephNewton-ne1iy Місяць тому +58

      @@Alex-kh8np No i agree with other Guy, even though you are technically right he didn't come off as a very compassionate person more like selfish big shot who was scared this peasant showed up at his manner and didn't have any time for him.
      Bear in mind when the shoe was on the other foot and it was him in Ireland down an out this fella took him into his home and i am sure boosted his ego back up again.
      All that comes across is Robbie did some soul searching and found a man with the makings of a song which he desperately needed and he takes that and runs back home and fucks the other bloke out of the equation.
      You can say all's fair in love and war but bulk of Robbie's career has been based off of people feeling sorry for him

    • @sharpvidtube
      @sharpvidtube Місяць тому +7

      @@JosephNewton-ne1iy Or Robbie went from being an alcoholic, to sober? That changes things. I don't think he treated Ray badly when he turned up at his door, but if he took his piece of a song, he should let him have his full share of the royalties.

    • @afrosymphony8207
      @afrosymphony8207 Місяць тому

      @@JosephNewton-ne1iy dude there's nothing like technically right here, dont fuckn show up and peoples home unannounced its as simple as that. Anyone can find some bullshit excuse to denegrate the character of some they dont like, even if rovvie was a nazi and this was his old town caholic priest childhood buddy who saved him from drowning, you can highlight why nazis are evil all you want the fact still remains the same, if you show up unannounced be ready you're not entitled to be treated like a king.

  • @jamesandrew1750
    @jamesandrew1750 2 місяці тому +1372

    'you'll love an Angel instead' is exactly what I'd expect an Irish Catholic Mother to say to her son and the lyrics fit with a heartbroken songwriters work

    • @franzherflek4116
      @franzherflek4116 2 місяці тому +8

      So true

    • @KeironP1
      @KeironP1 2 місяці тому +7

      Love that.

    • @Doc-149
      @Doc-149 2 місяці тому +120

      Makes more sense than Williams literally throwing it together in a back garden in 60 minutes - yet never able to write anything else in the same vein or anywhere near it either before, nor since. In fact, he’s a walking testament to his own inability regards songwriting, he’s never hidden the fact he can’t write a song to save breath let alone an epic ballad such as that. It’s embarrassing hearing him claim otherwise. Actually it’s shameful.

    • @antiv
      @antiv 2 місяці тому +2

      Who tf gives a f? Ffs

    • @MrSmith_
      @MrSmith_ 2 місяці тому +61

      ​@@antivPeople with a moral backbone.

  • @steveakka
    @steveakka 2 місяці тому +368

    Come on Mr.Williams pay the man what he deserves and also give him the credit and respect he deserves...

    • @Chaapaw
      @Chaapaw Місяць тому +3

      He was paid

    • @erinkinsella91
      @erinkinsella91 Місяць тому +17

      ​@@Chaapawa pathetic £7,500

    • @musicbro8225
      @musicbro8225 29 днів тому +2

      @@Chaapaw What he deserves?

    • @SagalDuran
      @SagalDuran 22 дні тому +10

      Ray should get royalties for life

  • @seerpou
    @seerpou Місяць тому +553

    robbie's story of coming up with that line randomly in his sister's garden is something david brent would say

    • @Etcher
      @Etcher Місяць тому +6

      haha 100%

    • @Jamesaw85
      @Jamesaw85 Місяць тому +11

      Well what do you expect from someone who's "basically a chilled out entertainer".

    • @missknowsitall8705
      @missknowsitall8705 Місяць тому +1

      Robbie was a bore to watch

    • @scottsound4711
      @scottsound4711 Місяць тому

      Classic..

    • @animelytical8354
      @animelytical8354 Місяць тому

      I thought that and I hardly saw the show

  • @auto-systematic
    @auto-systematic 2 місяці тому +2164

    Sounds like he heard the song and said "I think I'll take that".

  • @andreidinu7316
    @andreidinu7316 2 місяці тому +2031

    Let me get this straight: Robbie, who hasn't written a thing in his life, gets "inspired" sitting in the garden, to write just one verse, then for months can't write a second verse, or any other song until he meets the second song writer who finishes the song, and we're supposed to believe that?

    • @NmpK24
      @NmpK24 2 місяці тому +57

      His story might be questionable but just because someone 'never wrote anything in their life' doesn't mean they cannot contribute to a songwriting partnership. Lyrics can be written by anyone.

    • @maxmeier532
      @maxmeier532 2 місяці тому +44

      You forgot that Williams was doing blow and had a fart caught that really made his belly hurt- so he wished for an angel to complate saving him.

    • @andreidinu7316
      @andreidinu7316 2 місяці тому +65

      @@NmpK24 you're proving my point. If it's a partnership, then put it on the record, no one says you didn't contribute, but why say you did it by yourself?

    • @imonlydancingsal1509
      @imonlydancingsal1509 2 місяці тому +12

      Robbie had good lyrics, melody ideas and concepts for songs. He is a writer, and evidently an inspired magpie also.

    • @Kussinz-b6r
      @Kussinz-b6r 2 місяці тому +5

      That’s how I write sometimes. It’s plausible but I can’t really tell if he’s stolen it or not

  • @jonathanjones2270
    @jonathanjones2270 Місяць тому +303

    Stole a song by a father mourning his dead child. Classy.

    • @ayo0o0o0o0
      @ayo0o0o0o0 17 днів тому +3

      He'll pay for that after this short life ends

    • @jordanbrook9368
      @jordanbrook9368 12 днів тому

      its bull

    • @rael1999
      @rael1999 3 дні тому +1

      @@jordanbrook9368 ....It's a hell of a lot more convincing than Robbie's embarrassing explanation of how he wrote the song.

    • @jordanbrook9368
      @jordanbrook9368 3 дні тому

      @rael1999 its literally in a documentary of tbem coming up with the sony and lyrics

    • @rael1999
      @rael1999 3 дні тому

      Lol...I saw what he said when he was asked on the spot. I literally laughed out loud it was that embarrassing.

  • @mrsyorkshire3216
    @mrsyorkshire3216 2 місяці тому +147

    This explains a lot. I've always found it astonishing that Robbie Williams wrote a song like this. Now, it appears, he didn't after all. Poor Ray. He was taken advantage of at a low point in his life having lost his baby.

    • @darrenporter1850
      @darrenporter1850 Місяць тому +13

      Robbie was basically a face for a band, there's no way he can suddenly write this one song. It's like taking a random person and asking them to paint a classic

    • @tru2harris998
      @tru2harris998 Місяць тому

      RAY PLEASE SUE ROBBIE...HE EXTORTED YOU.

  • @douglassmithe9799
    @douglassmithe9799 2 місяці тому +237

    I like Robbie's music, but he's always struck me as slimy guy you wouldn't wanna be associated with. I believe Ray's version of events.

    • @a.c.4732
      @a.c.4732 2 місяці тому +8

      "used car dealer" made good - he still wears the sheepskin coat ffs

    • @undercoveragent9889
      @undercoveragent9889 2 місяці тому +3

      Ironical, the music you like is not Robbie's.

    • @fritzblob
      @fritzblob Місяць тому +1

      I agree with everything you said apart from liking Robbie’s music 😂

    • @baghiballsakh82
      @baghiballsakh82 Місяць тому +2

      You're associated with him if you like his music. You're connected. Fundamentals.
      I couldn't listen to any artist I feel so strongly against.

    • @Rainyday23-l7p
      @Rainyday23-l7p Місяць тому

      He’s an Israel loving Zionist, what do you expect. Slimy is his middle name

  • @lefreakful
    @lefreakful Місяць тому +26

    This makes so much sense now... My heart is broken for Ray ❤

  • @gurpaful
    @gurpaful 2 місяці тому +1481

    Robbie's story of the song randomly coming to him while sitting in his sister's garden is such an obvious phoned in lie when you compare it to the genuine backstory. It's like he didn't even bother to try to convince anyone

    • @KathyD-24601
      @KathyD-24601 2 місяці тому +18

      Not at all. Most songs happen like that - most songwriters will tell you that. In fact Ray’s story is far more unusual.

    • @gurpaful
      @gurpaful 2 місяці тому +165

      @@KathyD-24601 Guy never wrote a song in his life, then suddenly writes a hit song as his first effort, after a drunken encounter with an actual songwriter? Sounds legit

    • @barryledgister4496
      @barryledgister4496 2 місяці тому +20

      The start is great, and I think it`s Ray`s...`I sit and wait/ does an angel contemplate my fate?`...the rest of the song is pretty cliched...Robbie and Guy Chambers. Robbie should`ve asked Ray to write more songs with him...doh...Robbie`s career soon tanked once Chambers was gone anyway...draw your own conclusion.

    • @777jimothy
      @777jimothy 2 місяці тому +13

      I've heard him tell a different story how it came about, so he's definitely lying

    • @pitchforkcustom
      @pitchforkcustom 2 місяці тому

      yep

  • @cbonk2
    @cbonk2 Місяць тому +388

    “I’m loving angels instead” tells me that Ray 100% wrote the song given his story.

    • @BeeSugar1
      @BeeSugar1 Місяць тому +8

      My sentiments exactly!

  • @music.sphere
    @music.sphere Місяць тому +12

    I'm glad that you made a video about this! It has hit 1M views now and I really hope Ray gets total justice.

  • @thecookreporting
    @thecookreporting 2 місяці тому +1865

    So Robbie stole a song meant for a dead child

    • @nickandrews2255
      @nickandrews2255 2 місяці тому +212

      It pisses me off. The way Robbie describes creating the song compared to how ray does it’s completely different. Of course it was rays song. Look at the story so much more detail plus meaning

    • @manulito2
      @manulito2 2 місяці тому +42

      @@nickandrews2255 Very much agreed. As soon as Robbie said that the verses came together in "a couple of hours", I started being suspicious. That's not the way creativity and writing music works. You just don't slap something together in a few hours, if you want something of quality, which "Angels" actually is

    • @Baron_Greenback
      @Baron_Greenback 2 місяці тому

      @@manulito2I wrote ‘There Should Be More Bananas For Sale On EBay’ in around fifteen minutes so to be fair - it can be done!

    • @Baron_Greenback
      @Baron_Greenback 2 місяці тому

      I don’t know how
      Or why
      It makes me sad, when I think about it
      It may seem inconsequential
      To you
      But to me
      It makes me feel like God doesn’t exist
      Only Morph
      And his odd friend Chas
      Why aren’t there more bananas for sale on EBay
      Why don’t more people have them for sale
      It makes me wonder
      And the thought
      Makes me sad
      I thought there would be more bananas
      Than they had
      Morph lives in a wooden box
      Chas got paid more royalties
      For his work
      Now Morph is depressed
      And Chas is out driving a Porsche
      It’s so sad I know
      But it’s true
      Plus there’s not enough bananas on eBay for sale
      Poor Morph
      And his wooden box
      The hinges are rusty and now it won’t properly shut
      Chas knows
      The way it goes
      Even with his Porsche depreciation
      He’s in a much better situation
      In the rain
      I ask again
      Why aren’t there more bananas for sale on eBay
      Why oh why
      I mean
      For crying out loud
      Poor Morph and his rusty hinges
      Chas being flash
      Cos he got all of the cash
      We need more bananas for sale
      On eBay
      [see it can be done!]

    • @daviebananas1735
      @daviebananas1735 2 місяці тому +98

      @@manulito2 I’m not in any way on Robbie’s side, but it’s absurd to say that the verse of a song can’t be written in a few hours. It can be written in 15 minutes, if not less. Not always, but it’s been done many times.

  • @matiia
    @matiia 2 місяці тому +113

    I’m not a songwriter, but when my wife died, I picked up her guitar, taught myself to play, and lyrics of love and grief poured out of me. There’s no way Robbie writes these lines with the only motivation being ‘waiting for my sister in the house’. A song written about a miscarriage and heartache is so much more likely.

    • @hghyfyfiugou4448
      @hghyfyfiugou4448 28 днів тому +5

      100%. I know a woman who had 2 miscarriages and has two baby angels as a tattoo. It makes absolute perfect sense.

    • @warrenbarry9280
      @warrenbarry9280 9 днів тому +2

      Nah, it's clearly a song about some bloke waiting for his sister to get back from the shops! The line about being 'being grey and old' refers to his sister taking a bit longer than usual. '...She offers me protection'...that's just about his sister buying him some rubber jonnies because he was too embarrassed to get them himself. Case closed.

  • @kurtsmith2547
    @kurtsmith2547 Місяць тому +9

    Great video, short and to the point with no annoying intros! Also no adverts for once. Subscribed

  • @JoeyXSmith
    @JoeyXSmith 2 місяці тому +2374

    I believe Ray.

    • @KINGMONKEY1989
      @KINGMONKEY1989 2 місяці тому +129

      That's how the industry works mate. The little guy always gets shat on and scammed out of there own music.

    • @MegaVypyr
      @MegaVypyr 2 місяці тому +13

      💯

    • @supertouring22
      @supertouring22 2 місяці тому +7

      I bet ray feels a lot happier that you do 😂

    • @alanlouth8501
      @alanlouth8501 2 місяці тому +5

      Me too

    • @nickandrews2255
      @nickandrews2255 2 місяці тому +40

      Absolutely . If he made it up why did he pay him to settle it?

  • @martynfreeman9638
    @martynfreeman9638 2 місяці тому +1030

    Funny how Robbie gets the opening verse popping into his head (the bit he recorded with Ray) and then is unable to take the song any further until Guy Chambers does the job for him. Also, Ray is actually a musician and songwriter, unlike Robbie.

    • @psychonaut689
      @psychonaut689 2 місяці тому +22

      Yes especially as he said he wrote two verses in the back garden.

    • @Kussinz-b6r
      @Kussinz-b6r 2 місяці тому +8

      Well that is how songwriting can work sometimes. You start writing something and then are unsure of where to take it. That’s how I write sometimes and plenty of other musicians and songwriters do. That’s not uncommon

    • @SlickArmor
      @SlickArmor 2 місяці тому +21

      ​@@Kussinz-b6r yes it can and does but not this time. Pay Ray.

    • @yota8325
      @yota8325 2 місяці тому +4

      ​@SlickArmor ray signed a contract he isn't getting any money. Best thing he could dream of is being credited as a contributer of writing the song. But that's up to Rob and his lawyers. I would assume robs lawyers would advise against putting rays name on there tho

    • @citizen1163
      @citizen1163 2 місяці тому +5

      @@yota8325 As Ray was only 23yo at the time he accepted the pittance, I’d hope there might be a case that he didn’t know what he was signing, but good lawyers cost.

  • @markwale4087
    @markwale4087 7 днів тому +4

    Thanks for amplifying this story. I just want to say Ray is not an amateur Irish musician - he is a professional musician and a very good singer-songwriter who happens not to be a celebrity. There are many more real musicians who never aspire to, let alone achieve, celebrity. Celebrity brings power, power facilitates abuse, and this story is an egregious example of it. And as you can tell from his contribution here, he Ray is a level-headed, deeply sound and hugely talented man. Robbie Williams I do not know at all.

  • @Optics2024
    @Optics2024 2 місяці тому +589

    Yeah I believe Ray over Robbie, who has always struck me as a bit of a snake

    • @devidwobinson8747
      @devidwobinson8747 2 місяці тому +5

      Apparently he has a big snake

    • @timcoakley5498
      @timcoakley5498 2 місяці тому

      Robbie Williams once said that he has the biggest cock in the music industry, what I think he meant to say was that he is the biggest cock in the music industry/

    • @TheTruthisLord
      @TheTruthisLord 2 місяці тому

      😂😂😂😂😂😂​@@devidwobinson8747

    • @jshaw4757
      @jshaw4757 2 місяці тому +14

      ​@@Insearchofpeace-iv2lmApparently he's sad lonely n empty

    • @jshaw4757
      @jshaw4757 2 місяці тому

      ​@@Insearchofpeace-iv2lmGood luck too him still part my childhood n such good tunes just industry is dog shite n that's the tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip...tip..tip..tip...off the tip..tip off the iceberg...cheers

  • @bletheringfool
    @bletheringfool 2 місяці тому +528

    An example of why verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they're not written on

    • @fastbowler
      @fastbowler 2 місяці тому +12

      It's literally a legal, non-verbal agreement to settle for £7500. Ray is appealing on Robbie's good will (a verbal request!) to reconsider the previous settlement.

    • @bletheringfool
      @bletheringfool 2 місяці тому +1

      @@fastbowler I meant when they were in the pub

    • @fastbowler
      @fastbowler 2 місяці тому +11

      @@bletheringfool It's a cautionary tale: Robbie was eager to move on and buy Ray out. Maybe Ray should've waived the £7500 for a songwriting credit. It's not like Robbie hasn't had co-songwriters for his other songs.

    • @bletheringfool
      @bletheringfool 2 місяці тому +1

      @@fastbowler yes indeed.

    • @mipmipmipmipmip-v5x
      @mipmipmipmipmip-v5x 2 місяці тому +5

      Maybe the road towards acts of good will does not involve having videos appear where the other is accused of theft. I can imagine the personal story behind it, but maybe Ray should have gotten this off of his chest by putting emphasis on the cautionary tale to others.

  • @sanali565
    @sanali565 24 дні тому +5

    Rays explanation to his creation of the song makes so much sense !

  • @angkeats7111
    @angkeats7111 2 місяці тому +185

    Ray is clearly telling the truth. The song had a meaning to him.

  • @madMARTYNmarsh1981
    @madMARTYNmarsh1981 2 місяці тому +343

    I don't know who's telling the truth here, but Ray's story makes a lot more sense given the context of the words of the song. Robbies make no sense; he wrote a song about angels, and the start of it is him sitting in his sisters garden?
    I always thought the song words sound like someone who is mourning a loss, not someone sitting in their sisters' garden.

    • @Gogs126
      @Gogs126 2 місяці тому +43

      I am Irish and can tell you that the story was going around musical circles in Dublin since the late 90s that Robbie Williams had been partying in Dublin and an Irish guy had played him this song of his at a session and that he had stolen it. That's years before the internet was commonly used, a decade before social media even started and there was no reason whatsoever to say it if it wasn't true

    • @TwoLeftSh0es
      @TwoLeftSh0es 2 місяці тому +33

      When he didn't know what to do at the end of the verse he should have gone back to sit in his sister's garden again.

    • @ShreddinThrash
      @ShreddinThrash 2 місяці тому +9

      This is proof that he stole it.

    • @mattiemclean9882
      @mattiemclean9882 2 місяці тому +3

      @@ShreddinThrash no it isn't. The only people who know the truth is Robbie and the other fella. Stop speculating about things you don't know

    • @jerryrikki9466
      @jerryrikki9466 2 місяці тому +2

      So you do know, you just dont trust yourself to know

  • @_creighton
    @_creighton Місяць тому +7

    My experience of the music industry constantly reminds me of Hunter S Thompson's summation of it in this quote...
    “The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.”
    ― Hunter S. Thompson

  • @aartjetwinkel
    @aartjetwinkel 2 місяці тому +491

    Even if Ray only wrote one chord or one word he should be credited. There are people getting songwriting credits for far less input.

    • @mitchellandrews1015
      @mitchellandrews1015 2 місяці тому +6

      @aartfaarrtjetwinkel. Are there? Who? Do you work in the business ?

    • @chateautemp
      @chateautemp 2 місяці тому +23

      @@mitchellandrews1015 yes, in corporate songwriting circles even being in the same room and not writing a single lyric or melody line gives that person a songwriter credit.

    • @twkotb
      @twkotb 2 місяці тому +19

      “Write a word, get a third” is a saying in Nashville. It’s a matter of convention though. If you’re a nobody, you can get shafted.

    • @stephenbrown5045
      @stephenbrown5045 2 місяці тому +12

      ​@@mitchellandrews1015Simon Cowell is well known for it, you don't need to work in the industry to know that

    • @joeshmoe7967
      @joeshmoe7967 2 місяці тому +1

      @@chateautemp I was just about to write that. I was going to say Nashville, but corporate absolutely works. The joke is, the janitor opens the door to grab the trash....damn, our cut just got smaller....

  • @BuDDa100
    @BuDDa100 2 місяці тому +586

    Whatever happened here, Robby could have easily help out the guy after he got millions, instead he chose to be a dick.

    • @colinlatham7905
      @colinlatham7905 2 місяці тому +51

      No choice, was just being himself

    • @paulgreen758
      @paulgreen758 2 місяці тому +23

      its what he is like, its all about Robbie

    • @ohdearism
      @ohdearism 2 місяці тому

      Robbie always was and possibly still is, a dick.

    • @yota8325
      @yota8325 2 місяці тому +5

      Not really if he already paid ray £7500. In the 90s that was a good chunk of change for helping right a verse for a song that might not even be a hit. Ray could have asked for a percentage instead of the upfront payment. But he would have known that was a risk he wasn't willing to take

    • @opinion3742
      @opinion3742 2 місяці тому +6

      @@yota8325 It was a sum of money settled out of court. Is that how the songwriting business works?

  • @SonicWizards
    @SonicWizards 19 днів тому +10

    2:55 Ray’s version is MUCH more plausible/credible

    • @Texturas75
      @Texturas75 12 днів тому

      Oh yes! Robbie's version just sounds like bragging.

  • @bunkerinfluence
    @bunkerinfluence 2 місяці тому +134

    A travesty, listen to any of rays songs and you will have your answer of who wrote it. Fantastic songwriter

  • @KevMcKean
    @KevMcKean 2 місяці тому +154

    This is 100% true. I'm from Dublin, and even though I was only 10 at the time, I always remember hearing that Robbie had taken Rays song. I always say an Irishman wrote Angels whenever it plays.

    • @garyduddell3224
      @garyduddell3224 2 місяці тому +1

      "It's 100% true because I heard rumours". Sound reliable. I heard this week you owe me £10k so please pay up......

    • @Jos-z5v
      @Jos-z5v Місяць тому

      Why are Irish people so obsessed with needing to remind people they are responsible for something? Is it because you’re not known for much? So the country needs to take credit for something as little as a song.

    • @a03bf1e0
      @a03bf1e0 25 днів тому

      I remember a girl when I was in 1st year saying she was Ray's niece when this song came out.

  • @patrickambrose5372
    @patrickambrose5372 Місяць тому +32

    The fact that Robbie hunted him away from his door was what got me! Very hurtful thing to do to anyone.

    • @branbroken
      @branbroken Місяць тому +1

      You have someone you met in a pub a while ago suddenly turn up at your front door unannounced, what did you expect to happen for robbie to say come on in have the guest room. Ateast he was given some money to go stay in a b&b, ive known people that would turn away family that arrived unannounced and leave them on the doorstep with nothing but the door slamming in their face.

    • @jeniestra.
      @jeniestra. Місяць тому +6

      ​@@branbrokenIf you pay attention to the story, they created a bond and you can see a picture of Robbie in Ray's house. It wasn't only a meeting at a pub.

    • @Vespa123
      @Vespa123 Місяць тому

      @@branbroken you know some scummy people

  • @jelkel25
    @jelkel25 2 місяці тому +94

    This is a good lesson for any creatives out there, more established artists may steal your ideas even if you just do whatever for yourself with no thought of a payday. It feels good and validating to get a bit of attention from a more established artist but just beware. Watch what you share online and especially in person. I was lucky and only had a few paragraphs stolen from a topic I don't actually write about which was enough for me to learn the lesson. Play your cards close to your chest until you have done what you are going to do with the idea. It's not your job to get others through dry patches unless they are paying and acknowledging.

  • @Katiekin2333
    @Katiekin2333 2 місяці тому +107

    I believe him. Robbie didn’t want to share a songwriting credit because he knew he would have to pay him a fortune.

    • @AmranSidek
      @AmranSidek Місяць тому

      well if can write angel..why dont he work with him for future project? its more an ego thing after having declared the writer for the song..and dont want anyone else to get the credit for it...shitty

  • @chrisliddiard725
    @chrisliddiard725 15 днів тому +4

    @4:28 You missed one other possibility. 'Angel' is a common enough theme for both to have had that idea before meeting and bringing their ideas on that theme together. Each might have left thinking the other had appropriated their idea. With each saying they already had the idea maybe the truth lies somewhere in between.

  • @DNSL_
    @DNSL_ 2 місяці тому +364

    let's see, who am I going to trust, someone who had a miscarriage and basically writes a song about that, or robbie williams who "sat somewhere in a garden and just got the idea"
    man this is a hard choice.

    • @Dave1507
      @Dave1507 2 місяці тому +5

      how do you put a miscarriage and a creative inspiration together? one of those two is not required to write a song...

    • @MegaCityPatrol
      @MegaCityPatrol 2 місяці тому +25

      @@Dave1507A gut wrenching emotional occurrence that a creative person needs to express through their art … or a drunk sitting in his sisters garden suddenly having melody and lyrics pop into head that even a pro songwriter like guy Gardner recognises as having hit potential 🤔 I know which one my moneys on

    • @Dave1507
      @Dave1507 2 місяці тому +4

      @@MegaCityPatrol Stranger things have happened. Btw most of the artists that we consider great these days were at one or more stages in their lives drunks or addicted to other drugs. I'm not saying Williams is one of those great artists, not by a long shot, but artistic expression and drugs have a well documented history. Also you make it sound like it's either or. That no pop singer can have great ideas just because he's also an alcoholic. And that's, to put it in simple terms, utter bullshit.

    • @opinion3742
      @opinion3742 2 місяці тому +10

      I hope you don't have to do jury service.

    • @MegaCityPatrol
      @MegaCityPatrol 2 місяці тому

      @@Dave1507 TLDR; whatever you win this internet argument, well done.👍

  • @SoSo-li6dn
    @SoSo-li6dn 2 місяці тому +401

    What a beautiful note from his mother. You wont have a baby to love, - but "You have an angel instead".

    • @jovanreid6782
      @jovanreid6782 2 місяці тому +15

      I beg to differ. It's no different from when people say things like "they're in a better place now" or "they're with God now". Like, I've never understood why this is supposed to be some form of consolation, when most people would rather have their loved ones still here.

    • @revelation3679
      @revelation3679 2 місяці тому

      @@jovanreid6782 perhaps you need to dig in a bit to learn what consolation means and, thereafter, why your response is retarded

    • @Unpopularity
      @Unpopularity 2 місяці тому +5

      @@jovanreid6782 the poetry has its value, as you can see with the turnout of the song. Sometimes poetic lines are offered for what little consolation they can provide, along with an artistic release esp. if her song is a songwriter.

    • @opinion3742
      @opinion3742 2 місяці тому

      @@jovanreid6782 I hope you never get to be a Bereavement Councilor.

    • @ruzziasht349
      @ruzziasht349 2 місяці тому +13

      @@jovanreid6782 depends how dead and black your heart is I guess. Not unusual for various people with disorders to have no empathy.

  • @typingstuff
    @typingstuff Місяць тому +1

    Very interesting and yes, I think the way he explained the place of inspiration, it sounds to me it was Ray's initial lyrics and tune Robbie took and further developed. I think this is a very interesting story and it gives more exposure to the background and what happened. Thank you for sharing and creating.

  • @BuckRolly1
    @BuckRolly1 2 місяці тому +333

    I remember reading Gary Barlow saying he never knew Robbie Williams to have written anything ever which is why he was so shocked by Robbie's subsequent 'songwriting' success

    • @I_Don_t_want_a_handle
      @I_Don_t_want_a_handle 2 місяці тому +43

      Barlow actually has some talent. Not my cup of tea but he was obviously the best of a sad set.

    • @fastbowler
      @fastbowler 2 місяці тому +15

      Working on the Take That comeback album, Gary had fully acknowledged what a fantastic songwriter Robbie has become, and regretted having repressed Robbie's development because Gary thought he (Gary) was on his way to a mega solo career, which did not happen. He had to regroup Take That to get his music career going again.

    • @slartibartfast7921
      @slartibartfast7921 2 місяці тому +3

      @@I_Don_t_want_a_handle agreed.

    • @slartibartfast7921
      @slartibartfast7921 2 місяці тому

      @@fastbowler This is the second stan comment from you. Robbie? Is that you? Talentless hack much?

    • @NmpK24
      @NmpK24 2 місяці тому +6

      RW co wrote his songs with other people like Chambers. And lyrics and melody are a big percentage of song's publishing. You don't have to be an experienced musician to do this either.

  • @DutchJoan
    @DutchJoan 2 місяці тому +24

    It's lovely to hear the true meaning behind the song, even though it is such a sad one. It is also sad that some artists feel the need or the liberty to steal other people's work.

  • @davecollins1403
    @davecollins1403 Місяць тому +1

    Thanks for putting this vid together , hope it goes viral . It’s well known in Ireland the concept for the song was Rays . Robbie then shafted him . The problem is Robbie has being telling porkies for so long , he can’t bring himself to admit that the song came from Ray . Hope Ray gets his just reward

  • @fozzledoff1
    @fozzledoff1 2 місяці тому +170

    Professional song writer: "He finished the verse and didnt know where to go from there, so I said 'what about going to the chorus'"
    WOW! what a bloody genius!!!

    • @nectarinedreams7208
      @nectarinedreams7208 Місяць тому +14

      That speaks more to Robbie's talent or lack thereof than it does Chambers'. I don't know why everyone is saying this. Are you all idiots?

    • @jas_bataille
      @jas_bataille Місяць тому +5

      Imagine having to TELL someone that. Hello????!

    • @alistairdimmick2886
      @alistairdimmick2886 Місяць тому

      No its prechorus, cut to a guitar solo break, verse 2, prechorus, THEN chorus. Then guitar solo.

    • @owencampbell8799
      @owencampbell8799 Місяць тому

      That’s a good line so I’ll take it to the bridge

  • @betrion7
    @betrion7 2 місяці тому +191

    Welp; I guess he did... "take that" 🙈

  • @jase8943
    @jase8943 Місяць тому +3

    “Is he a good song writer?”
    Robbie: “yeah hes good….he wrote Angels” 😂

  • @brucejr.5833
    @brucejr.5833 2 місяці тому +703

    Robbie knows he owns a piece of that song and deserves more than seven Grand.
    What a snake.

    • @fastbowler
      @fastbowler 2 місяці тому +15

      It was a gamble. Robbie's solo career wasn't flying high back then, and prior to release, that debut album could've gone nowhere. At least Robbie's legal team covered the bases before the album was pressed/CD was manufactured, and settled with Ray. Should Ray have asked for more? Should Ray have refused the £7500 for a songwriting credit? Robbie shares songwriting credits all the time. On this specific matter, the snake level is not very apparent

    • @Elfrida-ls2mo
      @Elfrida-ls2mo 2 місяці тому +6

      Can't Stand RW and don't like his Music or the song Angeles However if RW nicked someone's Song why did the Man not sue Years ago

    • @fastbowler
      @fastbowler 2 місяці тому +1

      @@Elfrida-ls2mo yep, he should’ve sued years ago, but an agreement is an agreement, in this case. (Also, “Angels” os the least of Robbie’s [co-written] songs, though I do enjoy his other work)

    • @slartibartfast7921
      @slartibartfast7921 2 місяці тому +3

      @@fastbowler Tbh, any form of defense of Williams is a self own. It’s not apparent to you… guess why.

    • @slartibartfast7921
      @slartibartfast7921 2 місяці тому +3

      @Charles-Grady exactly, dude is acting like he has an argument

  • @JuvPrimervago
    @JuvPrimervago 2 місяці тому +31

    As a singer songwriter myself, who loves that song and am a huge fan of Robbie actually, I believe the other guy more since that is usually how songs are actually written.

  • @brianholmes1471
    @brianholmes1471 Місяць тому

    This was really interesting and brilliantly put together. Very Articulate and interesting. Thanks

  • @mistertamura6190
    @mistertamura6190 2 місяці тому +48

    I’d love to see a series focusing on musicians who got robbed of a great song. Sure, in many cases it’s likely difficult to prove, but it would be interesting to hear the stories nonetheless.

    • @ct5625
      @ct5625 2 місяці тому +2

      Oh man, I would love to see someone do a full documentary on the Kurt Cobain/Courtney Love/Billy Corgan song theft legend.

  • @SlickArmor
    @SlickArmor 2 місяці тому +32

    I believe Ray. Not only does he have a believable story behind it but he has the first line or two they recorded that first night. And everyone admits the very beginning sets that stage and is the most important nugget. Pay Ray

    • @paulrichards6894
      @paulrichards6894 Місяць тому +2

      its theft simple as

    • @branbroken
      @branbroken Місяць тому +1

      First line or two recorded of robbie singing, it proves nothing of who wrote it, only that the two had discussed it and recorded some test material.

  • @104ist
    @104ist Місяць тому +3

    he did the same thing with She’s the One, still doesn’t give proper credit, in fact before watching the video I assumed it would be about that song!
    RiP to Karl Wallinger who wrote She’s the One. I saw him live once and he said the difference between him and Robbie… “I wrote the song - I know who *she* is”.

  • @lennertcoorevits958
    @lennertcoorevits958 2 місяці тому +82

    So sad. Williams has a hard time acknowledging that he just can’t write songs.
    In his documentary on Netflix, the way he ends up treating Guy Chambers, just because he wants the public to believe “hey i can do this shit too!” , was pretty heartwrenching.

    • @SpringNotes
      @SpringNotes 2 місяці тому +13

      Robbie sounds very insecure, even tho he shouldn't be. It also takes talent to be a good singer and a performer.
      That was good enough for Elvis.

    • @MINOUTFTABOU
      @MINOUTFTABOU 2 місяці тому +3

      @@SpringNotes
      This guy couldn't write songs either and even tried to rip off Dolly Parton. Dolly Parton was tough as nails and said ‘NO’
      ‘This little song is not just a little song, it's special and I wrote it for my beloved husband!’

    • @captainhurricane5705
      @captainhurricane5705 Місяць тому +3

      He can't sing either.

    • @jeniestra.
      @jeniestra. Місяць тому +3

      ​@@MINOUTFTABOUto be fair Elvis Presley's manager was the one who wanted to scam Dolly Parton.

    • @GosiaP2019
      @GosiaP2019 Місяць тому

      He is the author of the lyrics of almost all of his songs and also creates the melodic lines.I don't know of any hits by Chambers that weren't co-written with Robbie.

  • @Iron-Bridge
    @Iron-Bridge 2 місяці тому +83

    It's simple. Ray's the actual songwriting talent. Robbie is a performer not a musician.

    • @monkeybutt713
      @monkeybutt713 Місяць тому

      and Robbie's a dick you forgot that part.

    • @beimircc6434
      @beimircc6434 Місяць тому

      Is it really that simple..?

    • @do_happywork
      @do_happywork Місяць тому +2

      @@beimircc6434 What if it was?

    • @snaphaan5049
      @snaphaan5049 Місяць тому

      @@beimircc6434 Yup. 90% of the industry works like that

  • @bustamoveorelse
    @bustamoveorelse Місяць тому +2

    Great commentary "He stole his song but on the bright side. The guy who stole his song and left him with nothing while making millions, gave him a compliment". Feels good

  • @keyboarddeserter
    @keyboarddeserter 2 місяці тому +246

    Lesson learned, dont share your best non copyrighted material with a signed professional.

    • @jacksonwinter5110
      @jacksonwinter5110 2 місяці тому +14

      That's not how copyright works. There's not some registry where you submit your work to have it certified as copyrighted. You just need to be able to prove in court that you had the earlier work, and that any derivative work is sufficiently inherited from your original.

    • @coldacre
      @coldacre 2 місяці тому +14

      @@jacksonwinter5110well technically that IS how it works: you have to own a physical copy of something that can be dated to prove in a court of law, ownership. back in the 90’s artists would make a copy of a demo; mail it to themselves and store…. with the envelope having a postal stamp & date on it. boom: the song is copyrighted

    • @Monkycrasure-gk4fz
      @Monkycrasure-gk4fz 2 місяці тому

      @@coldacre that is literally what @jacksonwinter5110 just said. He said, you have to prove you had it first. Then you come in here, well akshully you have to prove you had it first. The date on the envelope would be used for what? Proof maybe? There still isn't a copyright registry though is there?

    • @cathalfaughnanmusic
      @cathalfaughnanmusic 2 місяці тому +5

      False. The mail thing has never stood up in court.
      Robbie stole the song. Plain and simple

    • @joy1ess
      @joy1ess 2 місяці тому +1

      as long as you have a tangible product of your work, that work is automatically copyrighted. just make sure it’s dated

  • @kevinwhelan9607
    @kevinwhelan9607 2 місяці тому +14

    A fascinating account - I had no idea. Thanks for posting and keep up the good work 🎉

  • @fraserwebster8761
    @fraserwebster8761 17 днів тому +4

    A song meant to mark the passing of a child. Not entirely sure how Robbie sleeps at night. Probably still hoping Liam Gallagher will call him his mate one day.

  • @jonplukehughes2807
    @jonplukehughes2807 2 місяці тому +104

    Robbie’s story of sitting in the garden and it just comes to him is highly suspect on its own

    • @carolinebcollier
      @carolinebcollier 2 місяці тому +9

      What’s more is that it’s ultimately not nearly as interesting as the truth. The very relatable, true origin could have helped make it an even bigger hit. Robbie Williams sounds like a terrible person.

    • @jonplukehughes2807
      @jonplukehughes2807 2 місяці тому +5

      @@carolinebcollier I couldn't agree more, unfortunately it seems like the writer will never get what he deserves

    • @Heresy1987
      @Heresy1987 Місяць тому +1

      Dont forget though, Williams was probably sat in that garden.....talking about himself.

    • @contentedtiger_
      @contentedtiger_ Місяць тому +1

      Yeah, "like, does an angel contemplate my fate?" 🫣 you can actually tell the difference between how they each connect with the words of the song.

  • @MrJayehawk
    @MrJayehawk 2 місяці тому +247

    So, Robbie's claim is that he's not much of a songwriter...but also managed to write the song voted the best British single of the past 25 years.
    That checks out.

    • @Alex-ey9jl
      @Alex-ey9jl 2 місяці тому +5

      I wouldnt say this is fair because you can be a non-songwriter and still produce hits... And as stated alot of it was down to guy chambers arrangement and the instrumentation who is a professional songwriter anyway.... All robbie did is write some of the words

    • @Blinki18284
      @Blinki18284 2 місяці тому +2

      @@Alex-ey9jl Robbie Williams and Guy Chambers had a great chemistry and came up with some great songs themselves. I wouldn't say, Robbie is a songwriter himself but with the right partner, he is/was very creative.

    • @infinite8382
      @infinite8382 2 місяці тому +11

      @@Alex-ey9jl "you can be a non-songwriter and still produce hits" the same way you can fly a plane and not be a pilot. LMAO :P

    • @KingBuster90
      @KingBuster90 2 місяці тому +2

      @@infinite8382 actually most of the time the plane flies its self & there has been times non pilots have flown a plane successfully
      & by that I mean with no training & you need a pilot's licence to be considered a pilot I think & you need to be able to fly a plane to get one

    • @tillitsdone
      @tillitsdone 2 місяці тому +3

      @@KingBuster90 No that's not true, no non-pilot has ever landed a plane successfully, except in dumb movies

  • @snoookie456
    @snoookie456 15 днів тому +1

    This finally makes sense because I never ever ever liked Robbie Williams, but I've learned Angels when I studied piano and guitar on both instruments. And I always thought this song is just too beautiful to be written by this boy band drop-out.

  • @hughtube5154
    @hughtube5154 2 місяці тому +76

    Omfg. "Once he (Robbie Williams) got to the end of the verse he didn't really know whee to go from there. I suggested going to the chorus." Y'know. Like in 99.9% of all pop music. You'd think songwriter extraordinaire RW would know the structure of an effing pop single.

    • @msbecks7004
      @msbecks7004 2 місяці тому +1

      That’s exactly what I thought 😂

    • @undercoveragent9889
      @undercoveragent9889 2 місяці тому

      Yes, it appears as if they got their story straight, doesn't it?
      Famous dude mugs troubled Irishman. Chambers gives a fake alibi for the night of the mugging. Horrible people. I am so glad I never bought into the 'pop thing' at all. A next of vipers preying on the vulnerable.

    • @will-sully
      @will-sully Місяць тому +3

      I took that to mean they didn't have a chorus at this point and that Guy subsequently wrote it

    • @redwoodtrees7068
      @redwoodtrees7068 Місяць тому

      @@msbecks7004 he looks nice, that's why he's there.

  • @mike_laughfeed
    @mike_laughfeed 2 місяці тому +55

    "Rob" from "Take That"

  • @Itsbenjames
    @Itsbenjames Місяць тому

    You look like someone tried to draw James Blunt, I mean this in the kindest nicest way, I love James Blunt and you're both beautiful humans!
    Also this is a great mini doc, I love Robbie and learnt a lot from this I didn't know so thank you for making great art!

    • @TaraTara-ld2xb
      @TaraTara-ld2xb 27 днів тому

      I think he looks more like Rick Astley.

  • @HonestWatchReviewsHWR
    @HonestWatchReviewsHWR 2 місяці тому +72

    This has always been one of the main reasons I've never liked him.

    • @mrrootytooty5797
      @mrrootytooty5797 2 місяці тому

      He gives off massive creeper scumbag douche vibes, i find him inusfferable even for only seconds at a time.

    • @MINOUTFTABOU
      @MINOUTFTABOU 2 місяці тому +1

      Unfortunately, many were blinded. For about 10 years now, the songs have been getting worse and worse and I can't listen to them any more.
      No development, just singing any song: ‘The stupid fans are buying it!’
      The Bake, bake cake song annoys me the most.

    • @MINOUTFTABOU
      @MINOUTFTABOU 2 місяці тому +3

      ROB wanted to have an influence in the fashion world and launched his own jeans brand on the market. After six months, the company was closed.
      Did he also want to steal from the young designers? This did not work and the work was stopped.

  • @jayhpaq
    @jayhpaq 2 місяці тому +22

    It wouldn’t have hurt to have given Ray a cowriting credit along with Guy and Robbie. Unfortunately when it comes to money, selfishness and greed win out more often than not.

  • @AB-mt9nf
    @AB-mt9nf Місяць тому +8

    2:25 no the Who had nothing to do with the song

    • @onesong2001
      @onesong2001 13 днів тому

      You're wrong. It was written at the World Health Organisation HQ.

  • @Peter-sk5vg
    @Peter-sk5vg 2 місяці тому +76

    He could have given him a point!! That's the friends you find in music. The fact that he paid him at all tells you that there is a kernel of truth to this.

    • @nickandrews2255
      @nickandrews2255 2 місяці тому +4

      Absolutely to then after say he made it up is a huge red flag sad to see this people with lots of money always do this it sucks to screw over your fellow man for cash

    • @james1658
      @james1658 2 місяці тому +9

      The reason he was paid off, is because if it went to court, it could go either way, as no way to prove either of them wrote it. Judge would likely order that 'Ray', would get x% of royalties for the song. However, I will add, back in 95 I new Robbie was a talentless piece of ..... Until watching this video, did I understand how talentless he was.

    • @MINOUTFTABOU
      @MINOUTFTABOU 2 місяці тому

      @@james1658
      As one of the Gallagher brothers once said: ‘He (RW) will always be the fat one from TT!’
      Back then, RW really wanted to be part of the band Oasis. RW himself admitted this in an interview.
      Noel was ‘not amused’ because he was the songwriter. Two . . . NO three top dogs are too many and Noel clearly showed his position.

    • @paulrichards6894
      @paulrichards6894 Місяць тому

      if he had written it in the garden he would have given him nothing

    • @nickandrews2255
      @nickandrews2255 Місяць тому

      @@paulrichards6894 exactly

  • @paulaitix77
    @paulaitix77 2 місяці тому +141

    Guy Chambers stated Williams would always try to change his lyrics solely to receive writing credits

    • @myBquest
      @myBquest 2 місяці тому +25

      So, like Beyoncé? 😂

    • @opinion3742
      @opinion3742 2 місяці тому +2

      Where did you hear this?

    • @HarryWolf
      @HarryWolf 2 місяці тому +23

      Change a word, earn a third.

    • @GaryCareyMusic
      @GaryCareyMusic 2 місяці тому +8

      Guy Chambers is primarily the music person. This is how he described working with Robbie Williams in a GQ interview: "I would just sit with him, with a guitar or piano, and he would sing melodies at me. He would come up with lyrics almost instantaneously. When I met him he had a lot of ideas floating around, a lot of poems and lyrics. He’s a very natural songwriter - I would just try to keep up". There was a three part BBC series 'Secrets of the pop song' showing Chambers writing with Rufus Wainwright and other artists. He re-iterated there that he came up with musical ideas and not lyrics.

    • @TheDefJamm
      @TheDefJamm Місяць тому +2

      But that's not song writing. The lyrics are just part of it. It's also the story in the song, the melody, and the chord sequence.

  • @latheofheaven1017
    @latheofheaven1017 Місяць тому +1

    Ray's explanation of how the lyric hook came about sounds so much more truthful than Robbie's "It came to me in my sister's back garden." story.

    • @irishguy200007
      @irishguy200007 Місяць тому

      He banged together a couple of verses in the Garden??
      Chambers said he had the bones off the first verse but nothing else??

  • @101RadioheadCovers
    @101RadioheadCovers 2 місяці тому +233

    "How I wrote Angels, I was sitting in my sister's back garden so I was like: Ok, I sit and wait, does an angel contemplate my fate?"
    😂
    Robbie clearly has no connection to the song and has no idea how to write one.

    • @seaninness334
      @seaninness334 2 місяці тому +20

      I felt this, too. I have no idea who Robbie is until seeing this video, but THAT is a horseshit story. Robbie ripped off the song. He's also a crap liar.

    • @thecornedbeefcouncil9792
      @thecornedbeefcouncil9792 2 місяці тому +21

      Robbie needed Guy Chambers to tell him after the first verse you should go to the chorus.
      My gut feeling is that Ray is telling the truth….

    • @shanefitzgerald2614
      @shanefitzgerald2614 2 місяці тому +5

      Absolutely ridiculous, like something David Brent would say

    • @dondamon4669
      @dondamon4669 Місяць тому

      I don't believe he wrote it as it's Robbie Williams but that's not a reason to think it! Songs come from anywhere at anytime,have you heard Lennon and McCartney talk about songwriting? You can write a song hungover watching TV thinking about nothing! You don't have to be going through an emotional thing to feel ffs

    • @JoaquinStick
      @JoaquinStick Місяць тому +3

      @@dondamon4669 Well yeah, that's Lennon and McCartney. This is Robbie Williams we're talking about. Very suspect that a song like 'Angel' would just "come to him" out of nothing.

  • @enkinoize
    @enkinoize 2 місяці тому +31

    It's so sad that this happens....

  • @Toni-j7i9r
    @Toni-j7i9r Місяць тому

    I learned so much from this video! ty 🙏

  • @MrMisanthrope84
    @MrMisanthrope84 2 місяці тому +102

    The original of this song is heartbreaking. That poor guy writes a song about a harrowing chapter in his life then has it stolen. What the hell.

  • @davidloveday8473
    @davidloveday8473 2 місяці тому +241

    Which is more likely on the face of it:
    (a) extremely famous and apparently fame-hungry celebrity who has left/been thrown out of an extremely famous boyband, who has apparently never previously written a song, and who is desperately looking for a first song as a solo artist in order to remain relevant and earn money again, just happens to write one of the greatest pop classics of all time... and then instead of going straight to a major record company with it, decides instead to share his ticket to success as a solo artist with some unknown singer songwriter after randomly meeting him in a Dublin pub one night
    (b) unknown singer songwriter, inspired by a devastating personal loss, writes one of the greatest pop classics of all time, but being completely unknown has no way of doing anything with it... until he randomly meets extremely famous ex boy band member in a Dublin pub, boyband member explains after a few pints that he's desperate for success as a solo artist but that he can't write songs, and unknown singer songwriter suggests he might just already have written something the ex boyband member could record, solving both of their dilemmas...

    • @biancabeavis7198
      @biancabeavis7198 2 місяці тому +22

      This should be pinned as the top comment.

    • @illy1581
      @illy1581 2 місяці тому +8

      exactly

    • @Jennifer-77
      @Jennifer-77 Місяць тому +6

      B, the answer is definitely b!!!

    • @toadds
      @toadds Місяць тому +6

      Brilliantly summed up. I'll go with Option B.

    • @45anon45
      @45anon45 Місяць тому +1

      Tldr

  • @SharonRowlands-o9v
    @SharonRowlands-o9v Місяць тому

    Come on Robbie, was so proud of you as a stoke ,don't make us look shabbier than we already have to contend with!

  • @TheMinimalistPortfolio
    @TheMinimalistPortfolio 2 місяці тому +34

    "I'll love an Angel instead" will never sound the same again. Truly heartbreaking...

  • @sirlordcomic
    @sirlordcomic 2 місяці тому +84

    Karl Wallinger wrote She's the One. Nothing to do with Williams. When introducing the song in live performances, Williams often claims that it is one of the best songs he's ever written, despite not actually having written the song.

    • @matthewcoombs3282
      @matthewcoombs3282 2 місяці тому +15

      When clicking on the video, I thought it was about that song. Didn't realise he did it about "Angels" as well. Karl was pissed off about it then became OK after a few years when he realised the royalties paid his kid's school fees😂

    • @jackjude
      @jackjude 2 місяці тому +8

      RIP Karl. Loved his stuff as 'World Party'

    • @smellyhhh
      @smellyhhh 2 місяці тому +5

      Wtf? Wallinger is credited on the Album. How can he even claim this. 😂

    • @sirlordcomic
      @sirlordcomic 2 місяці тому +8

      @@smellyhhhI know. Shows his character. The hard part of a song to come up with is the creative part the initial idea. It seems the young Irish writer did that for Angels. It’s not hard then for other semi talented producer/songwriter to build that into a song. Famously in the Stones Keith was the ideas man and Mick worked them into songs. The ideas what separates the great from the good.

    • @zandykarasulas
      @zandykarasulas 2 місяці тому +3

      Interesting. I saw an interview from the time it was released when he literally said the opposite - that he didn't like it and didn't write it. If you could link a video that would be awesome!

  • @AlexMc9395
    @AlexMc9395 25 днів тому +1

    Williams isn't credited as a sole writer on anything that I can remember. If it wasn't for Guy Chambers I doubt if he'd have a career at all. In fact (from my standpoint) his career tanked as soon as Guy Chambers left. He was left running on the fumes.

  • @natashamonks8476
    @natashamonks8476 2 місяці тому +14

    I believe Ray's story. It just makes more sense. Robbie should be ashamed of himself!

  • @paulat2515
    @paulat2515 2 місяці тому +24

    So Robbie stays at his place takes photos with Rays family and soon as Ray turns up at Robbie’s he’s like oh no u can’t stay here and basically tells him to do one and go back to Ireland, that speaks volumes, I believe Ray

    • @thomasr53
      @thomasr53 Місяць тому +8

      Well said, I was about to put something up around this, until I saw your comments, why has no one else mentioned this (maybe they have) it's so important that Ray and his family treated Robbie so well but when the shoe is on the other foot, he didn't want to know the guy, where I come from, if you look after me, I look after you, Robbie you have lost me and I was a fan, I also believe Ray

    • @nanoboi101
      @nanoboi101 Місяць тому

      ​@@thomasr53Sickening behaviour

  • @stevenjackson6360
    @stevenjackson6360 Місяць тому +1

    Robbie Williams is a great performer but would never have had such a good career without guy chambers.
    Chambers is imo the best British songwriter of the 90s - 00s

  • @PASHKULI
    @PASHKULI 2 місяці тому +31

    Roy deserves royalties, maybe 10% which would be a fair deal fer him!

    • @cuckootown9478
      @cuckootown9478 2 місяці тому +1

      To be fair he should get 100%

    • @GaryCareyMusic
      @GaryCareyMusic 2 місяці тому +2

      The standard 'Nashville' approach is equal splits. So 33.33% Particularly if his personal experience was the origin of the song.

    • @Yimello
      @Yimello Місяць тому

      @@cuckootown9478 Wouldn't really be fair on Guy Chambers who wrote the majority of it and produced it.

  • @danielhughes441
    @danielhughes441 2 місяці тому +49

    This happens every day. It’s awful. Billy Ray Cyrus did the same thing with “Achy Breaky Heart.” He was in a band, and a band mate wrote it. Then he left the band, and recorded it and claimed it as his own. I have never had any respect for him since.

    • @roostfezza7563
      @roostfezza7563 2 місяці тому +3

      Are you sure? Id heard another band had recorded it earlier, but cyrus did another version that was a hit. The songwriter was credited.

    • @findinggspots6441
      @findinggspots6441 Місяць тому

      Don Von Tress gets royalties for it though, that's the difference

    • @TheDefJamm
      @TheDefJamm Місяць тому

      Nah. Sorry. Don Von Tress has sole credit for writing that.

    • @TheDefJamm
      @TheDefJamm Місяць тому

      @@findinggspots6441 Don Von Tress is actually credited as the ONLY songwriter.

  • @RudyAdrian
    @RudyAdrian Місяць тому

    Great story, though most of us have already heard it. It'd be great if Robbie actually recording another of Ray's great songs and included it on one of his million-selling albums :)

  • @a.c.4732
    @a.c.4732 2 місяці тому +11

    Personally , I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of Robbie Williams mouth .
    All ego & self promotion . The original mould for the Narcissistic Personality

    • @GuerrierJulius
      @GuerrierJulius Місяць тому

      That's what front men are made of tbh

  • @ChrisMustard
    @ChrisMustard 2 місяці тому +33

    I'm into trigonometry, I'm loving angles instead.

    • @a.c.4732
      @a.c.4732 2 місяці тому +2

      I'm into healthy eating , I'm loving apples instead ...
      Hey , there's a song there , but don't tell RW 😲

    • @ChrisMustard
      @ChrisMustard 2 місяці тому

      @@a.c.4732 what sort of melon is unable to live abroad?
      A can't elope.

    • @Sthuont
      @Sthuont Місяць тому +1

      Trigonometry or Germanic tribes? 🧐

    • @ChrisMustard
      @ChrisMustard Місяць тому +1

      @@Sthuont are you trying to trigger me? Haha

    • @Sthuont
      @Sthuont Місяць тому

      @@ChrisMustard Never! Just saying though Jutes>Angles

  • @JamesBrewerDJ
    @JamesBrewerDJ Місяць тому +5

    No offense to Robbie....but who is more likely to have written this? A coked up, pissed up, ex-boy band member who was known for not playing an instrument or providing any creative input, or someone who "IS" a song writer, had been through hell and was in the exact head space to write this....I wouldn't put my money on Nobbie!

  • @aidanoc19
    @aidanoc19 2 місяці тому +8

    I heard something very similar to this story from my brother about 20 years ago, my brother's a professional session musician in Ireland. Somehow the story had become Guy and Robbie drowned their sorrows in Dublin together, Guy a song writer without a singer, Robbie a singer without songs 😂. In that version Robbie didn't write it either, so I'm inclined to believe Ray!

  • @starlightsign8666
    @starlightsign8666 2 місяці тому +67

    had he even been granted a single point on the single, his first royalty cheque would have been £40,000...first of many!

    • @aartjetwinkel
      @aartjetwinkel 2 місяці тому +12

      Yeah he should've been granted points, even if he'd only written one chord or word or just helped Robbie write this. Give credit where credit is due.

    • @tonycowin
      @tonycowin 2 місяці тому +8

      He is credited but sold his rights for the seven grand so doesn't get any points. Robbie's publisher screwed him over though the lad's lawyer did an awful job. They should have demanded to hear the recored version before handing over any claim for cash.

    • @OnafetsEnovap
      @OnafetsEnovap Місяць тому +1

      @@tonycowin I like to consider this a cautionary tale - when you create something, anything, you own the rights to it legally - those rights are more precious and important than all the money in the world.

    • @tonycowin
      @tonycowin Місяць тому +1

      @@OnafetsEnovap Yep it's a great cautionary tale. As you say under our law copyright is automatically gained at the moment of creation. It's having the evidence and good advisors if those rights are ever breached or manipulated by another party as in this case.

  • @eeledahc
    @eeledahc 18 днів тому

    Hank Williams took my grandpas song, years later after WIlliams had passed his wife found something from my grandpa, I don't know if it was a lyric sheet or one of those local carved albums that he had but she sent a letter along with it. He knew that he wouldn't make it but was glad that his song, even though reworded made it across the nation and is still known today.

  • @thepochade5992
    @thepochade5992 2 місяці тому +13

    This happened to my late husband with the song Iris released by the Goo Goo Dolls. Every time we hear it, we can hear his guitar.

    • @zimpon
      @zimpon Місяць тому +1

      What ???

    • @colinfarley7982
      @colinfarley7982 Місяць тому

      So if I say Bddddd you know what im saying?

  • @nicostadi
    @nicostadi 2 місяці тому +8

    In Nashville there's a saying: "A third for a word" or "Change a Word, Get a Third". And in LA, my personal and a common general philosophy is to give "even splits" (I’m a writer/producer). Now there can be differences of course when the song leaves the room and other people get added later, which is common. But even if you are JUST IN THE ROOM and you contribute NOTHING, you're gonna get a credit. My theory on this is that if during the session you figure out that a person isn't very good, or isn't contributing much if anything, then the most likely scenario is that I just won't work with them again, unless I know their history of being a good writer and they just seem to have a bad day etc etc. It’s very very rare that someone contributes nothing btw… personally speaking.
    Ray has his version on his UA-cam that you can listen to and what’s interesting is not even the similarities all over, but the fact that it’s clearly still it’s own song and different from the final “Angels”. It doesn’t go to the massive chorus and all that. It feels too authentic. If he was faking it, he could have forced it way closer.
    I think Occam’s Razor says that the most likely scenario is that Robbie (as a non-writer) stumbled on a great start to a song, recognized it’s potential, took it to a professional, had it finished, lied about it not having similarities worthy of credit, paid off the guy because he needed money, took advantage of the situation, and went off his marry way.
    Robbies story more or less:
    As a non-writer (it sounds like), he wrote this beautiful start to a song and just left it sitting around as-is… (ok possible). Then he goes to a pub, meets a random songwriter and decided to get smashed with him and in the morning wants to for some reason record the idea with him (ok strange, but possible)? But this other guy actually doesn’t do anything during said recording even though he’s a songwriter?? Or I guess he did (he had to), but it wasn’t worthy of giving credit?! So his claim is: literally not even a smidge of an idea from that recording was left on the final master. Nothing.
    Why would Robbie want to record it then and there? Why with the other guys singing on it too? Why is it presumably now a full song and not just a verse?? My bet is that BECAUSE he didn’t write it, he wanted a record of it for later so he could memorize it and claim it as his own start. I bet he felt guilty of going in with some big producer/writer like Guy Chambers having no good ideas of his own.
    Point being… EVEN IF… after the pub, in the wee hours of the morning, when they smashed a few more beers and talked about life, death and angels… Ray ONLY contributed one word, one line, or just the fleeting idea of waterfalls… and that ended up in the song, he deserves co-writing credit.

  • @mr.c.2167
    @mr.c.2167 Місяць тому +2

    That s a perfect story for a movie.

    • @irishguy200007
      @irishguy200007 Місяць тому

      I remember watching the movie Grand Theft Parsons about the stealing of Ghram Parsons body from the airport and now am wondering what a suitable name for stealing a song would be.

  • @johnboyle1513
    @johnboyle1513 2 місяці тому +16

    Robbie and Guy have pretty much admitted all this.The best song never written by them-Williams owes this guy his career

    • @TheDefJamm
      @TheDefJamm Місяць тому

      Just give the guy a few million £. Nothing to Williams but life changing for Ray.

  • @Cloudbusting31
    @Cloudbusting31 2 місяці тому +68

    Williams and Chambers had a falling out some years ago over Chambers wanting to renegotiate his cut of the songwriting credits. It was well known that Chambers was the one responsible for all those hits.

    • @domm.427
      @domm.427 2 місяці тому +23

      I was so confused about why Robbie had suddenly stopped putting out great music in the mid-00’s, until I realised what you’ve pointed out. He’s a performer, not an artist.

    • @brianbell3836
      @brianbell3836 2 місяці тому

      @@domm.427 He's a prick, not a human being.

    • @michaelmulhall5007
      @michaelmulhall5007 2 місяці тому +8

      All you have to do is listen to rudebox when chambers left

    • @MINOUTFTABOU
      @MINOUTFTABOU 2 місяці тому +1

      @@michaelmulhall5007
      I only heard the song ‘Rudebox’ once and not for a minute and I knew: ‘I don't like this song!’ There really is a difference between after and before Chambers.
      One song was really bad after the Chambers era. We mocked ‘Bake, bake cake song’

    • @ar5624
      @ar5624 2 місяці тому +3

      Absolutely, Robbie can barely even sing let alone write a decent song

  • @nicejob1589
    @nicejob1589 Місяць тому +4

    So basically the best british song of the past 25 years is Irish.

  • @petergibson7287
    @petergibson7287 2 місяці тому +13

    Ray definitely deserves a credit and royalties and backdated royalties.
    It's rather bizarre that Ribbies stiffed him; lots of songs give credits to several songwriters.

    • @SpringNotes
      @SpringNotes 2 місяці тому

      It makes sense, if you understand that person's insecure ego.

  • @antoninuspius5264
    @antoninuspius5264 2 місяці тому +267

    For many years, Williams has claimed that "She's the one" was "the best song I ever wrote" although the original by World Party was released before his version. Williams is a showman, not a songwriter.

    • @toon87mill
      @toon87mill 2 місяці тому +16

      He never claimed he wrote She's The One.

    • @fastbowler
      @fastbowler 2 місяці тому +8

      When did Robbie claim this? In the liner notes of the album, Karl is listed as songwriter.

    • @toon87mill
      @toon87mill 2 місяці тому +9

      @@fastbowler Robbie even said in the documentary 'Nobody Someday' he didn't like performing that one cause it's not his song

    • @thebouncinghearts
      @thebouncinghearts 2 місяці тому +18

      @@toon87mill He often introduced it live as "The best song I ever wrote" this of course could be taken as ironic humour, but it is none the less misleading...and it would have been nice if he had given Karl Wallinger proper credit.

    • @slartibartfast7921
      @slartibartfast7921 2 місяці тому +2

      And he’s barely the former.

  • @晶子与謝野
    @晶子与謝野 Місяць тому +2

    Ray's story about how he wrote Angels Instead is actually more connecting than Robbie the thief's story.

  • @lozD83
    @lozD83 2 місяці тому +16

    "He got the the end of the verse and didn't know where to go. I suggested going to the chorus". This guy is a genius!!

    • @Winter-CIG
      @Winter-CIG Місяць тому +1

      😂

    • @ThePaulOLoughlin
      @ThePaulOLoughlin Місяць тому +2

      Wait, write that down, delete the video, we've stumbled upon the holy grail!!

    • @ryanrusso2954
      @ryanrusso2954 Місяць тому

      Proves he wrote the song.