Great video and totally agree with your comments. We would happily pay a small fee each year to be able to wild camp on open access land. Just as you do to fish or use the waterways. This would enable and give people the confidence to get out there more and perhaps discourage the irresponsible people. Just a thought.
If anyone is interested in knowing more or in getting involved in changing things do look up the right to roam campaign. Great video and very sensible suggestions, we aren’t asking for much, just some common sense. The tide is turning.
Great video. In my experience on the Yorkshire moors and the Peak District in particular, if you are hiking following a recent shoot you will find hundreds of plastic cartridge cases littering the moor presenting a risk for wildlife and looking a right old mess. And they complain about us. Change is urgently needed.
Interesting video Andrew, and I find myself in full agreement with you. Just today I was out for a day walk in the Arnside & Silverdale AONB (I only live a mile outside it) the day was plagued by incessant shooting... pheasants I think...my route had to be changed numerous times. I wouldn't trust those hooray Henry's with a gun! Sadly here in the Lakes we are also plagued with "dirty campers" both tent and campervan, so it's going to be an uphill battle here I fear. Thanks again, cheers Alistair 👍
Thanks Alistair. I think it's time we maybe distinguished between dirty camping and wild camping. Those who choose the former are the same that litter our streets and flytip. They are not wild camping. I doubt their motives are to enjoy the solitude and peace in an area of beauty. I know the area you mentioned well as I have run the silverdale trail race and walked the Westmoreland way. It's a beautiful limestone area with lovely woodland.
@@huntonthetrails yep, I think it was Cameron McNeish who I first heard use "dirty campers". Let's hope things improve in the near future regarding more enlightened thoughts on wild camping.👍
The grouse shooting land really annoys me. They say that they are looking after and managing the land but they kill prey birds, drain bogland and don't give a hoot for any ecology that doesn't give the rich folk chance to shoot it!
Agreed. Not to mention the heather burning. Odd that we have so many cities with ULEZ ( quite rightly ) but landowners can burn huge amounts of heather and create masses of smoke.
In my experience in Yorkshire moors and the Peak District in particular, if you are hiking following a recent shoot you will find hundreds of plastic cartridge cases littering the moor presenting a risk for wildlife and looking a right old mess. And they complain about us!
I was woken up by a warden on a grouse moor in early July. I was polite, kept him talking (in the pouring rain) and he eventually said I had to leave first thing in the morning. I looked into it and the consensus of opinion was that they don't want you there because you see what they're doing on a night. The flooding of the Hebden Bridge valley wasn't helped by the fact that drains had been illegally installed on the moorland above them. If you do a bit of searching you'll find out about the efforts to fine the owners which suddenly stopped... Something odd had happened. I don't trust them at all.
Yes there are plenty of studies out there that highlight the damage to peat soil and the increased risk of flooding, particularly after a heather fire.
I regularly wild camp and trail run on the north York Moors and I have a different take on it. I camp where I please, but try to stay out the way of paths, tracks and gamekeepers. I find that the management of the land as a result of grouse shooting and sheep grazing makes access easier...the tracks and paths are in the most part maintained and bushwhacking across the moorland is easy due to the heather being managed. It still feels relatively wild despite the land management. I'm in my mid forties and the moors have always existed like this so I see no reason to change. The worst that can happen is being asked to move on, which isn't the end of world given all the other benefits of wild camping.
I have done some wild camps and running on the North Yorkshire Moors and I agree, the network of paths can be helpful. However, I was once out on Blisdale moor and was surprised to see a chap mowing the grass around the shooting butts while another was painting them. Very manicured and certainly not wild. I take your point, but wouldn't it be nice if you just didn't have to be worried about being asked to move on when camping ? Also 28% of the NYM national park is used for grouse shooting.
Many thanks for subscribing. The Right to Roam campaign is pushing for access rights to be in manifestos for the coming election. They have a petition to sign if you are interested. Hopefully there may be some changes but sad to say, I have just returned from the Skye Trail and saw many examples of people littering and not burying human waste. This doesn't help.
Interesting discussion as you say as long as people LNT and are responsible especially on long distance walks I cannot see there being an issue . I plan to walk the Anglesey coastal path next year and like you hope to mix it up with some campsites and wild camping but it will be dependent on how each day goes 👍
I hope you can. We have done a couple of coastal walks and managed to find wild camp spots, but you also realise there is a lot of private land on the coast.
@@huntonthetrails yep I've done a few reccy trips and too be honest found some great spots .... I'll play it by ear and pitch up late and leave early. Got to get in a few more shorter trips first to hone my gear list etc 👍
First a big thumbs up on your walking. The camping you are doing is real wild camping and is similar to what I do. You are camping because you have to on a long distance walk and you are seeking spots that are responsible. You were unlucky that night. I'm not going to engage in arguments about field sports etc, which some comments are, because I grew up in the country, fish and occassionally shoot and there has to be room for all. The young gamekeeper would be in a quandry as he said. If you hadn't moved quickly in the morning and his boss had seen he would be in trouble. The open gate could be where the shooting party park and the rolling topography on the edge of the wood in the photo looked like where they would stand. Back to the key issues. A lot of what is going on is not what we do, its not wild camping. Its people parking up, wandering out a bit and pitching and some are leaving a mess as well but essentially they do not need to camp. The opportunity is to clarify the laws to make it clear what true wild camping is and where it can occur and hiw to behave and this would help everyone on our small packed island. Keep loving what you do.
Thank you for such a considered and reasoned comment. I agree 100% about clarity around what is wild camping and not car camping. It's why I like the Scottish access code which says avoid camping on enclosed land. As for my encounter, I agree. The young man was very polite and I had no reason to be challenging in any way. There were pheasants in the area so I never thought he was fobbing me off. As you say there is compromise and space for us all to enjoy our wonderful countryside.
@@huntonthetrailsthat's okay, I could see you were being thoughtful about it all. I get frustrated with some people who claim to be wild campers and are really undermining hikers who need to camp. I could imagine the clauses of an access code that could be drawn up to clarify things so everyone knew where they stood, helping genuine wild campers and discouraging those that are undermining us.
Do agree, you took your chances and unfortunately got unlucky. I've been taking some chances too, too many. I learned about open access land now, thank you. I like Scotland for camping freedom. Great article especially resonates with a recent landowners Dartmoore issue...
Well reasoned discussion on this topic and agreed, the current situation is a bit wrong headed. It is awkward on walks like the Shropshire way where so much of the land is agricultural. Lot of land owned by a few rich people who garner massive amounts of tax payers money through way of subsidies.... 👍🏼
Totally agree with you, very well put The time is long over due when those that have a lot share simple things like nature and the outdoors with those that don't.
So two weeks ago I crossed the Scott s borderline. Had to ditch before the camp site. The pitch was two hours from the Scot line in Wooler moor. No new I was there I was way before the farm came to feed the sheep. He screaming up the fell side at me for flat grass ! So not leaving Scott’s again crossing the border
I'm hoping that soon we will have access rights in England and Wales like Scotland. I recently upset a farmer in Wales but was camping on open access land.
You've made some great points about land which is used for shooting but there's also land which is being used for illegal fox hunting... A landowner would be less tolerant to respectful wild campers if they were hosting illegal activities... The law won't change unfortunately...
I just think that if we get a change of government it might happen. The Dartmoor Access case has stirred a bit of a hornets nest and a lot of people are now asking why there are so many restrictions to wild areas.
@huntonthetrails I would read Countryside Alliances last article protecting hunts and opposing Labour councillors of wanting to ban all forms of hound activity... They will use more open access rights to gain the public vote when they are only concerned with filling their pockets from hunt money...I would also check out Shropshire Wildlife Monitors to see if you can recognise the location of your pitch...
Cheers Dave. I mean you have done the Cambrian way, could you imagine trying to do it without wild camping and how different an experience it would be ?
@@huntonthetrails well for me these trails are not possible without camping where you want to against the law or not it’s what it’s all about for me. A walkabout adventure.
Landowners can make a lot more money from using a small portion of land for clamping/camping. But there are irrational restrictions on allowing landowners to do that. Other than that buying land is the best way to make change.
On the Shropshire Way we stayed at a campsite on a farm. It was great, although when chatting to the farmer was clearly a lot of additional work. I think the notion of land ownership is an interesting one. Can someone really own, a mountain, lake or river ? Keep it exclusively for themselves because they 'own' it ?
I am not convinced about Labour bringing in right to roam in E&W. In Scotland they only dealt with Scottish landowners, now, they are going to have to contend with the biggest landowners in the U.K. Duchy of Lancaster, etc, etc. Look at what happened in Dartmoor when one wealthy landowner got his own way.
I am Scottish I live in East Lothian .. just back from Ben Nevis wild camp.. I totally agree what your saying pal .. my son lives in England and he always says why is this dad .. I would help if anything needs done .. best regards
Thanks for commenting. The Scottish access code seems to make perfect sense and I cannot see why it could not be implemented in England. Designating open access land was a start, but it needs to go further
@@huntonthetrails hey no worries at all.. yes I agree.. you see I got a lot of new camping stuff and phoned my best friend and drive up north to the trossachs and was told we could not camp in a certain area due to wild life echo systems etc.. and alot of people respect that.. the issue I found was certain areas they have totally made it practicaly impossible to park up anywhere .. but that’s mostly the west coast .. other parts of Scotland no problem.. the issue we deal with is extreme weather systems either massive wind with never ending rain in some months that or the snow or ice.. certain areas have been ruined due to certain low life’s leaving everything at there back sides prior to leaving.. there should be an app available for people in England to let people know not just for safety for your self but also to keep an eye on areas that get camped on to leave no mess etc.. I think it’s very possible for this to happen if enough people agree to it.. it’s very sad as there is some amazing gorgeous places in England and wales.. people need to stop ruining this for other people and the wild life .. either pictures taken before camp then when you leave and upload it to the (special) app for wild campers .. just an idea 💡
I camped at Loch Venacher when I did the Scottish National trail at a designated 'camping spot'. It cost about £4 through the National Park. I was very disappointed to see the amount of litter at this semi-managed site. In fairness to them there were signs with the Leave No Trace message but no litter bins. I think it is just for us all to put out the ethos of Leave No Trace and challenge people if they dont comply ( e.g. a guy who just dropped his banana skin on the floor by a summit cairn. I asked him to pick it up. He said it was biodegradable so it didnt matter. I said sure but it will take 12 months in which time everyone will have to look at it. He picked it up. )
Interesting video, it’s a real tricky one this, so many people gave wild camping ago after covid and a lot were unfortunately non ethical, the shooting moors are obviously owned as are the fields, I think in all honesty fields should only be used in emergency, which I think was the reason for your stay, even though the lad on the quad seemed genuine it’s a real shame he couldn’t show a bit more common sense, I also think if you are pitched up and it’s dark that they shouldn’t have the right to force you to move, they should have the right to tell you that you have to be away first thing, I am always on guard on shooting moors between august and this time as they really don’t want anyone there, I suppose if you look at it this way, you’ve only been asked to move once in a very long time, if it’s the same before you get moved on again then maybe it won’t be too bad, not sure they will change the law, when you think 60 years ago they didn’t even want us on the fells, glad people stood up for us then, hope it doesn’t spoil your camps going forward, all the best Tito the Troddler 👍
Thanks for your thoughts on this matter. I think we are very much in agreement. With rights come responsibility. I just would like to see access opened up more and for us to be free to camp knowing we are doing the right thing.
Wow, so the grouse moors get £84 million off our taxpayers in subsidise and on top of that probably various grants. Do agree a change of government is only way change could come. Again, great video. Still watch and re-watch your Scottish national trail and cape wrath series of videos,all great stuff.👍🏼
Unfortunately the few (increasing in numbers though) are wrecking this for the majority. Whilst the law allows the landowners the right to move you on, many will utilise it to protect themselves from them the bad eggs out there by enforcing a blanket 'no' to anyone they find. I dont wild camp but do a lot of walking around the uk and i am absolutely amazed by the amoubt of rubbish and waste that people leave. And im not just talking about some easy 3 miles route that anyone can handle, im talking long and challenging routes. Where people have to really make the effort to go to, but quite happily still leave a trail of their littler and waste on it. Its almost like theyre drawn to hiking by something other than the beauty of it.
I agree. All we can do is put out and reinforce the leave no trace message and challenge littering when we see it. Littering is a huge issue in this country. You only have to look by any roadside to see how disgusting it is.
Unfortunately, theirs are always going to be that ruin it for everyone else. i was up on kinder last Sunday on their was someone in a bright red tent in the middle of the day
You've made some great points and backed it up with some basic facts. You hit the nail on the head when you identified that shooting is for a very small minority. That small minority support the current UK Government and they would rather see less access to the countryside than the current status quo. We've only got to look at the threatened civil trespass legislation that could have been changed to criminal trespass or the battle that Dartmoor NPA had to undergo with a beligerent landowner who tried to refuse wild camping despite there being a bylaw in effect. We will need to have progressive government to see the changes that you, I and many others desire but I fear that the first 5 years will have more important issues to address IE fixing the country that the current government has broken.
Thanks for your comment. My hope is that the Dartmoor battle got the attention of enough politicians in the Labour party to press for a change. We can only hope. I found it shocking that 20% of all national park land in the UK is used for grouse shooting.
Like you, I always try to scout out decent places to stop. I have been spotted and spoken to by farmers and woodland owners, but never asked to move... yet. For every wild-camper who leaves a mess there are dozens who collect rubbish as they go.
I think that most farmers and landowners can see the difference between genuine wild campers and those who are not. I'd just like to see more clarity in the access laws and a proper definition of wild camping as in Scotland.
@@huntonthetrails I agree, but I'm happy with the way things are. My reason being that if every knacker thought it was their 'right' it would be abused. That's what happened in Loch Lomond. Scotland is plagued with arse-campers who want a 'freebie'. They are not hiking, shopping for bits and bobs, visiting historical sites and having a drink, meal and a bit crack in the local pubs. They are packing the cans, fetching their BBQ, making their fires, 'toileting' everywhere and leaving everything behind. Like you said "I think that most farmers and landowners can see the difference between genuine wild campers and those who are not". So, be careful what you wish for.
Thanks for commenting. I don't disagree with you. I have seen first hand many times the disrespectful behaviour of this minority. It needs calling out for what it is. It is not wild camping. I agree that most farmers do distinguish between those who are genuine wild campers and those who are not. However, you also have a minority who are very protective of their land and not welcoming, even when on rights of way. Perhaps if access rights are extended we need to distinguish between backpacking wild camping and car camping and just keep driving home the 'leave no trace message'. @@graceygrumble
@@huntonthetrails Perhaps my experience is seen through 'female-tinted' glasses. I hike, backpack, camp, canoe, wild-camp and am perceived as non-threatening. I once pitched up in a paddock (in the dark) and was 'caught'. I ended up getting a meal, a couple of beers and accommodation in 'the barn conversion' the luxury of which I could never afford. Sexism has its bonuses.
@@graceygrumble Sounds like you landed on your feet. Although in my early days, me and a pal were walking the Pennine Way and late in the day asked a farmer if we could camp in his field. He said it wasn't a problem and his wife brought us six eggs next morning for breakfast ! I think our experiences probably reflect that fact that the majority of farmers are nice friendly people who are happy to help with a small minority who aren't, in the same way the majority of wild campers are responsible and the odd few aren't.
Some sort of registration, like a fishing licence. You apply for a membership card, for a fee no doubt! The card will have your name, address and license number. If you get caught, you show the license and as long as no damage, everything is ok. If youre caught with no license, your gear gets confiscated, until you get licensed or pay back the confiscation fees.
I don't know why we sit by and allow others to tell us we can't have access to the countryside, as if its some complicated matter. Ofcourse we can! We're not the ones polluting rivers and land by the acre!!!
Not that I fell sorry for you as all land belongs to someone. I own some and fed up with picking up other peoples toilet doings, and use toilet paper, tampons, condoms and all the rest of the nice things of life. Plus looking at ground damage through fires and BBQ's with very often spent batteries left behind. Never patrolled it for years, but i do now and move on anyone that pitches. plus fixed notices at the regular spots.The many instead of the few you mention have sadly spoiled the welcome. Much the same at a good guess as Dartmoor or the fact you never really have been allowed to wide camp anywhere on owned land without permission or not following the strict by-laws, and for those that think it is their right, best think again.
Thank you for this. I don't think this sort of behaviour is in any way acceptable and I think you are quite right to move them on. It disgusts me that some people can go to areas and treat them with a complete lack of respect. We have some of that here where I live. Litter, fly tipping, unacceptable. However, I am asking for something different. Perhaps there needs to be a distinction between wild camping and car camping, they are different activities. Rolling up in your car and pitching by a roadside is not wild camping. Many like myself would never dream of being so disrespectful. Leave no trace is a key message. That is the heart of wild camping. I'm also suggesting, like in the Scottish access code, that camping is allowed on open access land, not enclosed land or near buildings. I'm sure a compromise could be reached.
As a responsible, leave no trace wild camper, I am entirely in sympathy with your views, Andrew and would like to be able to pitch without the nagging doubt whenever I hear a quad bike in the area that I could be moved on - and as an old bloke I'm normally pretty tired out after a day of walking and getting my tent set up. Sadly, however, we mustn't kid ourselves that it is just the 'car campers' that are a problem. Quite a few spots well away from roads are being trashed, too, especially around some of the tarns in the Lake District (probably similar in North Wales). I now avoid camping by tarns after my last experience at Grisedale Tarn where I seemed to be pitched amongst a sea of broken glass (beer bottles), tampons and toilet paper. I exaggerate perhaps, but only slightly. I also used to experience quite a bit of noise in some of these places from small groups of people who had carted tins of booze up the hill with them. A lot of UA-cam wild campers, who I know are in practice responsible, do make a point of showing themselves with booze in the tent. I wonder if this in any way leads to others less reaponsible thinking wild camping may be a fun way to have a 'good night out'??? I've not expressed that very well, but it's just a thought. When I can I now seek out spots well away from footpaths, tarns etc etc. But an interesting video. Thanks.
I've come across similar behaviour in bothies where some people view it as a chance for a booze up in free accommodation and treat the place with no respect, although this is a very small minority. Fortunately I have never met this while wild camping although i don't frequent popular camping spots in popular areas. I take your point of some youtube wild campers who take beer ( never me ) but they do seem to be responsible and always promote Leave No Trace. All I think we can do is to drive home this message all the time and challenge any poor behaviour if we see it, to support the landowners and the rest of us who respect the countryside.
It depends what you consider private. In Scotland so long as you follow the guidance this would not have been a problem. On reflection, in this case, I think asking us to move on was not unreasonable as potentially we were interfering with their work. Fair enough. But I think we need a long hard look at how our land is managed. At the moment huge amounts are used for the pleasure of a very small number of people. Is that fair ?
@@huntonthetrails It is entirely fair because the owner is using it the way he sees fit. If you want to have a say on how other people’s land is used, then that is unfair. I don’t get to have say on your property. You could buy your own land and invite wild campers to use it. Note that would be fair because you, the owner, are exercising your rights.
But should the 'owner' of a large area of open land in England have exclusive access to it ? I'm not talking about someone's back garden or property, I'm talking about large areas of wild land. I am not privileged enough to ever have enough money to buy these large estates which have in many cases been passed down through generations of a family. Landowners, so long as they act within the law, can do as they wish as far as I am concerned as in Scotland, but it surely it does not mean that others should not be able to enjoy these spaces.
I think we need to define what wild camping is. It's not rocking up in your car and pitching next to it. It's camping in remoter, quieter places reached on foot. Staying overnight, leaving next morning and leave no trace. I think so much of the litter and waste is not wild camping but car camping.
Well none. I think he would have been ok with it but he was very concerned if his gaffer found out. There was clearly a procedure for not tolerating camping anywhere on this estate.
I honestly don't know why you're making an issue out of it. By your own admission it's the first time you've been caught and moved on after hundreds of wild camps over nearly forty years. 🤷♂️
It's a good way of looking at it. However, it's more of a principle. I have only ever had one speeding ticket yet have probably driven above the speed limit many times. I know speeding is not right despite the fact I only got caught once and I try to make sure I don't speed. At the moment with wild camping I willingly know that I am not following the rules and I don't like it. I want to do the right thing. Not speeding makes sense, not wild camping doesn't as with the latter I don't think I am potentially hurting anyone.
@@huntonthetrails Buddy, I'm a wild camper too so agree with what you're saying. I just think only being moved on once in all that time makes it not that much of an issue for you or for that matter most if not all respectful, sensible wild campers who follow the wild camping codes for good conduct. Putting aside what you say about access rights, greedy landowners etc; which as I've said I agree with you on I think the issues with people getting caught and moved on are a little more simple. In my honest opinion a good majority of times folk are getting moved on is because wild camping has become fashionable amongst the TikTok generation who don't respect the countryside, landowners, farmers and the local communities as much and these in most cases are the people getting caught and told to leave. They park in front of farmers gates, leave litter, chop down live trees for fires and are not responsible with said fires. They bring their loud music, drink and become loud/rowdy and often if caught are abusive and aggressive. They camp on or beside footpaths, defecate in farm buildings, caves, on the path/ground instead of away from paths and water sources and don't bury it. These in the main are the people who are getting caught and turfed off the land and these are the people who are making landowners, farmers, locals etc; become ever more intolerant of wild campers... but these are also the people who will then cry victim when they do get chucked off the land. I've seen this myself and have also heard and read of many cases like this by other people. I also know some park rangers and farmers who've basically said the same when I've spoken to them about it so whilst I'm obviously all for better access rights for wild camping in England I'm also sympathetic to some of the frustrations of landowners, farmers etc;
We definitely have the same viewpoint. I too am very sympathetic to farmers and landowners who have to deal with dirty campers. The actions of these people are intolerable ( that is my polite way of putting it !) We have to try and educate these people into leave no trace and challenge poor behaviour when we encounter it. I think there needs to be a clear definition of what wild camping is, such as in the Scottish Access Code. These dirty campers could be moved on as they do not follow these guidelines and those of us who are responsible could wild camp knowing we are following the rules.
Yip where's that kinder scout spirit gone.England and Wales still suffering from land access suppression..next anniversary of kinder get a documentary on prime time tv with a few celebrates (mel Gibson brave heart😊) etc and see how relates to current land access issues
Oh I doubt it will too. However, when you look at larger organisations like Right to Roam they are putting more pressure on politically for greater access to open countryside. When you start to look at at actually who 'owns' the land in this country it opens your eyes.
It’s going to be very difficult for you guys to change the law there in England. Many lawmakers are the very types that enjoy Grousing. I’m tired of the argument that Grouse shooting supports the local economy, what, a few gamekeepers to poison the local birds of prey and move on wild campers? Don’t make me laugh. You need the same law as Scotland and the Scandinavian countries, Allemansratten they call it, the right for all men to roam. Nature belongs to all of us, not just toffs that like to blast semi tame birds out the skies.
I totally agree with you. I'm hoping some changes may be on the way. I've noticed that United utilities and Scottish Power have both now banned grouse shooting on their land. Small steps maybe. I personally wouldn't require grouse shooting banned although I don't get why anyone would want to do it. But regulation and access needs to change.
Great video and totally agree with your comments.
We would happily pay a small fee each year to be able to wild camp on open access land. Just as you do to fish or use the waterways. This would enable and give people the confidence to get out there more and perhaps discourage the irresponsible people. Just a thought.
I would too. Hopefully soon we will see some changes and at least be able to camp on open access land.
If anyone is interested in knowing more or in getting involved in changing things do look up the right to roam campaign. Great video and very sensible suggestions, we aren’t asking for much, just some common sense. The tide is turning.
Thanks. I will check it out. It is time for change.
Great video. In my experience on the Yorkshire moors and the Peak District in particular, if you are hiking following a recent shoot you will find hundreds of plastic cartridge cases littering the moor presenting a risk for wildlife and looking a right old mess. And they complain about us. Change is urgently needed.
That is true. The burning of heather is also an interesting one given the increased focus on clean air in our cities.
Interesting video Andrew, and I find myself in full agreement with you. Just today I was out for a day walk in the Arnside & Silverdale AONB (I only live a mile outside it) the day was plagued by incessant shooting... pheasants I think...my route had to be changed numerous times.
I wouldn't trust those hooray Henry's with a gun!
Sadly here in the Lakes we are also plagued with "dirty campers" both tent and campervan, so it's going to be an uphill battle here I fear.
Thanks again, cheers Alistair 👍
Thanks Alistair. I think it's time we maybe distinguished between dirty camping and wild camping. Those who choose the former are the same that litter our streets and flytip. They are not wild camping. I doubt their motives are to enjoy the solitude and peace in an area of beauty. I know the area you mentioned well as I have run the silverdale trail race and walked the Westmoreland way. It's a beautiful limestone area with lovely woodland.
@@huntonthetrails yep, I think it was Cameron McNeish who I first heard use "dirty campers". Let's hope things improve in the near future regarding more enlightened thoughts on wild camping.👍
Leave no trace message. I saw a sign with it on when I was walking in the Pentlands. Maybe we need some signs at hotspot places to remind people.
the problems are mainly caused by campervans in my area, not tent campers.
The grouse shooting land really annoys me. They say that they are looking after and managing the land but they kill prey birds, drain bogland and don't give a hoot for any ecology that doesn't give the rich folk chance to shoot it!
Agreed. Not to mention the heather burning. Odd that we have so many cities with ULEZ ( quite rightly ) but landowners can burn huge amounts of heather and create masses of smoke.
Absolutely 💯
In my experience in Yorkshire moors and the Peak District in particular, if you are hiking following a recent shoot you will find hundreds of plastic cartridge cases littering the moor presenting a risk for wildlife and looking a right old mess. And they complain about us!
I was woken up by a warden on a grouse moor in early July. I was polite, kept him talking (in the pouring rain) and he eventually said I had to leave first thing in the morning. I looked into it and the consensus of opinion was that they don't want you there because you see what they're doing on a night. The flooding of the Hebden Bridge valley wasn't helped by the fact that drains had been illegally installed on the moorland above them. If you do a bit of searching you'll find out about the efforts to fine the owners which suddenly stopped... Something odd had happened. I don't trust them at all.
Yes there are plenty of studies out there that highlight the damage to peat soil and the increased risk of flooding, particularly after a heather fire.
I regularly wild camp and trail run on the north York Moors and I have a different take on it. I camp where I please, but try to stay out the way of paths, tracks and gamekeepers. I find that the management of the land as a result of grouse shooting and sheep grazing makes access easier...the tracks and paths are in the most part maintained and bushwhacking across the moorland is easy due to the heather being managed. It still feels relatively wild despite the land management. I'm in my mid forties and the moors have always existed like this so I see no reason to change. The worst that can happen is being asked to move on, which isn't the end of world given all the other benefits of wild camping.
I have done some wild camps and running on the North Yorkshire Moors and I agree, the network of paths can be helpful. However, I was once out on Blisdale moor and was surprised to see a chap mowing the grass around the shooting butts while another was painting them. Very manicured and certainly not wild. I take your point, but wouldn't it be nice if you just didn't have to be worried about being asked to move on when camping ? Also 28% of the NYM national park is used for grouse shooting.
Right behind everything you've said. New subscriber here. The freedom of the hills, mountains and wild places is a right for all.
Many thanks for subscribing. The Right to Roam campaign is pushing for access rights to be in manifestos for the coming election. They have a petition to sign if you are interested. Hopefully there may be some changes but sad to say, I have just returned from the Skye Trail and saw many examples of people littering and not burying human waste. This doesn't help.
I’ll camp and hike wherever I like thanks.
Hopefully we will all have more rights to do that soon.
Interesting discussion as you say as long as people LNT and are responsible especially on long distance walks I cannot see there being an issue .
I plan to walk the Anglesey coastal path next year and like you hope to mix it up with some campsites and wild camping but it will be dependent on how each day goes 👍
I hope you can. We have done a couple of coastal walks and managed to find wild camp spots, but you also realise there is a lot of private land on the coast.
@@huntonthetrails yep I've done a few reccy trips and too be honest found some great spots .... I'll play it by ear and pitch up late and leave early.
Got to get in a few more shorter trips first to hone my gear list etc 👍
Sounds like you will be fine. Just a shame that you have the worry of whether you will be found or not.
First a big thumbs up on your walking. The camping you are doing is real wild camping and is similar to what I do. You are camping because you have to on a long distance walk and you are seeking spots that are responsible.
You were unlucky that night. I'm not going to engage in arguments about field sports etc, which some comments are, because I grew up in the country, fish and occassionally shoot and there has to be room for all. The young gamekeeper would be in a quandry as he said. If you hadn't moved quickly in the morning and his boss had seen he would be in trouble. The open gate could be where the shooting party park and the rolling topography on the edge of the wood in the photo looked like where they would stand.
Back to the key issues. A lot of what is going on is not what we do, its not wild camping. Its people parking up, wandering out a bit and pitching and some are leaving a mess as well but essentially they do not need to camp.
The opportunity is to clarify the laws to make it clear what true wild camping is and where it can occur and hiw to behave and this would help everyone on our small packed island.
Keep loving what you do.
Thank you for such a considered and reasoned comment. I agree 100% about clarity around what is wild camping and not car camping. It's why I like the Scottish access code which says avoid camping on enclosed land. As for my encounter, I agree. The young man was very polite and I had no reason to be challenging in any way. There were pheasants in the area so I never thought he was fobbing me off. As you say there is compromise and space for us all to enjoy our wonderful countryside.
@@huntonthetrailsthat's okay, I could see you were being thoughtful about it all. I get frustrated with some people who claim to be wild campers and are really undermining hikers who need to camp. I could imagine the clauses of an access code that could be drawn up to clarify things so everyone knew where they stood, helping genuine wild campers and discouraging those that are undermining us.
100% agree
👍 Interesting reflections on wild camping in England and Wales. It's time for change! 🏕
Thanks. Couldn't agree with you more. I'm currently reading up around the issue and intend to do a follow up video.
Do agree, you took your chances and unfortunately got unlucky. I've been taking some chances too, too many. I learned about open access land now, thank you. I like Scotland for camping freedom. Great article especially resonates with a recent landowners Dartmoore issue...
Thank you. Hopefully things will change with an access code and clear principles at its heart.
Well reasoned discussion on this topic and agreed, the current situation is a bit wrong headed. It is awkward on walks like the Shropshire way where so much of the land is agricultural. Lot of land owned by a few rich people who garner massive amounts of tax payers money through way of subsidies.... 👍🏼
True, I didn't mention the subsidies which was apparently £84 million for the grouse moors last year.
Totally agree with you, very well put The time is long over due when those that have a lot share simple things like nature and the outdoors with those that don't.
Thanks. It just seems to me that we can find a way to share it.
So two weeks ago I crossed the Scott s borderline. Had to ditch before the camp site. The pitch was two hours from the Scot line in Wooler moor. No new I was there I was way before the farm came to feed the sheep. He screaming up the fell side at me for flat grass ! So not leaving Scott’s again crossing the border
I'm hoping that soon we will have access rights in England and Wales like Scotland. I recently upset a farmer in Wales but was camping on open access land.
You've made some great points about land which is used for shooting but there's also land which is being used for illegal fox hunting... A landowner would be less tolerant to respectful wild campers if they were hosting illegal activities... The law won't change unfortunately...
I just think that if we get a change of government it might happen. The Dartmoor Access case has stirred a bit of a hornets nest and a lot of people are now asking why there are so many restrictions to wild areas.
@huntonthetrails I would read Countryside Alliances last article protecting hunts and opposing Labour councillors of wanting to ban all forms of hound activity... They will use more open access rights to gain the public vote when they are only concerned with filling their pockets from hunt money...I would also check out Shropshire Wildlife Monitors to see if you can recognise the location of your pitch...
Totally agree with all your very valid points, 🤞
Thank you.
Very interesting Andrew and I have a similar point of view to yourself. Very well expressed. Thanks
🏕️
Cheers Dave. I mean you have done the Cambrian way, could you imagine trying to do it without wild camping and how different an experience it would be ?
@@huntonthetrails well for me these trails are not possible without camping where you want to against the law or not it’s what it’s all about for me. A walkabout adventure.
And wild camping enhances the experience, gives an added dimension in experiencing the area you are in.
Very well said and articulate.
Thank you for commenting 👍
Landowners can make a lot more money from using a small portion of land for clamping/camping. But there are irrational restrictions on allowing landowners to do that. Other than that buying land is the best way to make change.
On the Shropshire Way we stayed at a campsite on a farm. It was great, although when chatting to the farmer was clearly a lot of additional work. I think the notion of land ownership is an interesting one. Can someone really own, a mountain, lake or river ? Keep it exclusively for themselves because they 'own' it ?
I am not convinced about Labour bringing in right to roam in E&W. In Scotland they only dealt with Scottish landowners, now, they are going to have to contend with the biggest landowners in the U.K. Duchy of Lancaster, etc, etc. Look at what happened in Dartmoor when one wealthy landowner got his own way.
I take your point, landowners do wield a lot of political power. Hopefully labour can build on the uprising of the Dartmoor case.
I am Scottish I live in East Lothian .. just back from Ben Nevis wild camp.. I totally agree what your saying pal .. my son lives in England and he always says why is this dad .. I would help if anything needs done .. best regards
Thanks for commenting. The Scottish access code seems to make perfect sense and I cannot see why it could not be implemented in England. Designating open access land was a start, but it needs to go further
@@huntonthetrails hey no worries at all.. yes I agree.. you see I got a lot of new camping stuff and phoned my best friend and drive up north to the trossachs and was told we could not camp in a certain area due to wild life echo systems etc.. and alot of people respect that.. the issue I found was certain areas they have totally made it practicaly impossible to park up anywhere .. but that’s mostly the west coast .. other parts of Scotland no problem.. the issue we deal with is extreme weather systems either massive wind with never ending rain in some months that or the snow or ice.. certain areas have been ruined due to certain low life’s leaving everything at there back sides prior to leaving.. there should be an app available for people in England to let people know not just for safety for your self but also to keep an eye on areas that get camped on to leave no mess etc.. I think it’s very possible for this to happen if enough people agree to it.. it’s very sad as there is some amazing gorgeous places in England and wales.. people need to stop ruining this for other people and the wild life .. either pictures taken before camp then when you leave and upload it to the (special) app for wild campers .. just an idea 💡
I camped at Loch Venacher when I did the Scottish National trail at a designated 'camping spot'. It cost about £4 through the National Park. I was very disappointed to see the amount of litter at this semi-managed site. In fairness to them there were signs with the Leave No Trace message but no litter bins. I think it is just for us all to put out the ethos of Leave No Trace and challenge people if they dont comply ( e.g. a guy who just dropped his banana skin on the floor by a summit cairn. I asked him to pick it up. He said it was biodegradable so it didnt matter. I said sure but it will take 12 months in which time everyone will have to look at it. He picked it up. )
Here's hoping! I will also check out 'The Right to Roam Campaign'🤔 and thanks for sharing....
Great, glad you found it useful 👍
Interesting video, it’s a real tricky one this, so many people gave wild camping ago after covid and a lot were unfortunately non ethical, the shooting moors are obviously owned as are the fields, I think in all honesty fields should only be used in emergency, which I think was the reason for your stay, even though the lad on the quad seemed genuine it’s a real shame he couldn’t show a bit more common sense, I also think if you are pitched up and it’s dark that they shouldn’t have the right to force you to move, they should have the right to tell you that you have to be away first thing, I am always on guard on shooting moors between august and this time as they really don’t want anyone there, I suppose if you look at it this way, you’ve only been asked to move once in a very long time, if it’s the same before you get moved on again then maybe it won’t be too bad, not sure they will change the law, when you think 60 years ago they didn’t even want us on the fells, glad people stood up for us then, hope it doesn’t spoil your camps going forward, all the best Tito the Troddler 👍
Thanks for your thoughts on this matter. I think we are very much in agreement. With rights come responsibility. I just would like to see access opened up more and for us to be free to camp knowing we are doing the right thing.
Is there anyway we can make steps to making wild camping legal? Petition etc?
Hi. I joined the right to roam campaign. They currently are running a petition ahead of the next election.
I could not agree with you more. Where I live all the west Yorkshire all Moors around me are used to shooting bird .
Yes, makes you wonder where all these shooters come from !
Wow, so the grouse moors get £84 million off our taxpayers in subsidise and on top of that probably various grants. Do agree a change of government is only way change could come. Again, great video. Still watch and re-watch your Scottish national trail and cape wrath series of videos,all great stuff.👍🏼
Thanks. It was a great trail. I'm not necessarily against the grants but do wish so much of the land was not accessible.
Unfortunately the few (increasing in numbers though) are wrecking this for the majority. Whilst the law allows the landowners the right to move you on, many will utilise it to protect themselves from them the bad eggs out there by enforcing a blanket 'no' to anyone they find. I dont wild camp but do a lot of walking around the uk and i am absolutely amazed by the amoubt of rubbish and waste that people leave. And im not just talking about some easy 3 miles route that anyone can handle, im talking long and challenging routes. Where people have to really make the effort to go to, but quite happily still leave a trail of their littler and waste on it. Its almost like theyre drawn to hiking by something other than the beauty of it.
I agree. All we can do is put out and reinforce the leave no trace message and challenge littering when we see it. Littering is a huge issue in this country. You only have to look by any roadside to see how disgusting it is.
Unfortunately, theirs are always going to be that ruin it for everyone else. i was up on kinder last Sunday on their was someone in a bright red tent in the middle of the day
Wild camping wherever possible should be discrete.Its about us all sharing best practice so that our impact is minimal
You've made some great points and backed it up with some basic facts. You hit the nail on the head when you identified that shooting is for a very small minority. That small minority support the current UK Government and they would rather see less access to the countryside than the current status quo. We've only got to look at the threatened civil trespass legislation that could have been changed to criminal trespass or the battle that Dartmoor NPA had to undergo with a beligerent landowner who tried to refuse wild camping despite there being a bylaw in effect. We will need to have progressive government to see the changes that you, I and many others desire but I fear that the first 5 years will have more important issues to address IE fixing the country that the current government has broken.
Thanks for your comment. My hope is that the Dartmoor battle got the attention of enough politicians in the Labour party to press for a change. We can only hope. I found it shocking that 20% of all national park land in the UK is used for grouse shooting.
Like you, I always try to scout out decent places to stop. I have been spotted and spoken to by farmers and woodland owners, but never asked to move... yet.
For every wild-camper who leaves a mess there are dozens who collect rubbish as they go.
I think that most farmers and landowners can see the difference between genuine wild campers and those who are not. I'd just like to see more clarity in the access laws and a proper definition of wild camping as in Scotland.
@@huntonthetrails I agree, but I'm happy with the way things are. My reason being that if every knacker thought it was their 'right' it would be abused. That's what happened in Loch Lomond.
Scotland is plagued with arse-campers who want a 'freebie'. They are not hiking, shopping for bits and bobs, visiting historical sites and having a drink, meal and a bit crack in the local pubs. They are packing the cans, fetching their BBQ, making their fires, 'toileting' everywhere and leaving everything behind.
Like you said "I think that most farmers and landowners can see the difference between genuine wild campers and those who are not". So, be careful what you wish for.
Thanks for commenting. I don't disagree with you. I have seen first hand many times the disrespectful behaviour of this minority. It needs calling out for what it is. It is not wild camping. I agree that most farmers do distinguish between those who are genuine wild campers and those who are not. However, you also have a minority who are very protective of their land and not welcoming, even when on rights of way. Perhaps if access rights are extended we need to distinguish between backpacking wild camping and car camping and just keep driving home the 'leave no trace message'. @@graceygrumble
@@huntonthetrails Perhaps my experience is seen through 'female-tinted' glasses.
I hike, backpack, camp, canoe, wild-camp and am perceived as non-threatening.
I once pitched up in a paddock (in the dark) and was 'caught'. I ended up getting a meal, a couple of beers and accommodation in 'the barn conversion' the luxury of which I could never afford.
Sexism has its bonuses.
@@graceygrumble Sounds like you landed on your feet. Although in my early days, me and a pal were walking the Pennine Way and late in the day asked a farmer if we could camp in his field. He said it wasn't a problem and his wife brought us six eggs next morning for breakfast ! I think our experiences probably reflect that fact that the majority of farmers are nice friendly people who are happy to help with a small minority who aren't, in the same way the majority of wild campers are responsible and the odd few aren't.
Some sort of registration, like a fishing licence. You apply for a membership card, for a fee no doubt! The card will have your name, address and license number. If you get caught, you show the license and as long as no damage, everything is ok. If youre caught with no license, your gear gets confiscated, until you get licensed or pay back the confiscation fees.
It's a nice idea but I suspect the administration of this would make it difficult. However I know in the US they have camping permits so......
Just more revenue for the rich and more controls on our freedoms
Well yes, you could look at it that way too.
I'm in total agreement.
Thank you. Let's hope change is coming.
I don't know why we sit by and allow others to tell us we can't have access to the countryside, as if its some complicated matter. Ofcourse we can! We're not the ones polluting rivers and land by the acre!!!
True, but we need a change of law to gain this access. I have had a look at the Right to Roam campaign which has some progressive ideas.
It the rich play ground and they don’t want or care for the poor people to walk over it or camp.
I'm sure there is an element of that.
Not that I fell sorry for you as all land belongs to someone. I own some and fed up with picking up other peoples toilet doings, and use toilet paper, tampons, condoms and all the rest of the nice things of life. Plus looking at ground damage through fires and BBQ's with very often spent batteries left behind. Never patrolled it for years, but i do now and move on anyone that pitches. plus fixed notices at the regular spots.The many instead of the few you mention have sadly spoiled the welcome. Much the same at a good guess as Dartmoor or the fact you never really have been allowed to wide camp anywhere on owned land without permission or not following the strict by-laws, and for those that think it is their right, best think again.
Thank you for this. I don't think this sort of behaviour is in any way acceptable and I think you are quite right to move them on. It disgusts me that some people can go to areas and treat them with a complete lack of respect. We have some of that here where I live. Litter, fly tipping, unacceptable. However, I am asking for something different. Perhaps there needs to be a distinction between wild camping and car camping, they are different activities. Rolling up in your car and pitching by a roadside is not wild camping. Many like myself would never dream of being so disrespectful. Leave no trace is a key message. That is the heart of wild camping. I'm also suggesting, like in the Scottish access code, that camping is allowed on open access land, not enclosed land or near buildings. I'm sure a compromise could be reached.
As a responsible, leave no trace wild camper, I am entirely in sympathy with your views, Andrew and would like to be able to pitch without the nagging doubt whenever I hear a quad bike in the area that I could be moved on - and as an old bloke I'm normally pretty tired out after a day of walking and getting my tent set up. Sadly, however, we mustn't kid ourselves that it is just the 'car campers' that are a problem. Quite a few spots well away from roads are being trashed, too, especially around some of the tarns in the Lake District (probably similar in North Wales). I now avoid camping by tarns after my last experience at Grisedale Tarn where I seemed to be pitched amongst a sea of broken glass (beer bottles), tampons and toilet paper. I exaggerate perhaps, but only slightly. I also used to experience quite a bit of noise in some of these places from small groups of people who had carted tins of booze up the hill with them. A lot of UA-cam wild campers, who I know are in practice responsible, do make a point of showing themselves with booze in the tent. I wonder if this in any way leads to others less reaponsible thinking wild camping may be a fun way to have a 'good night out'??? I've not expressed that very well, but it's just a thought. When I can I now seek out spots well away from footpaths, tarns etc etc. But an interesting video. Thanks.
I've come across similar behaviour in bothies where some people view it as a chance for a booze up in free accommodation and treat the place with no respect, although this is a very small minority. Fortunately I have never met this while wild camping although i don't frequent popular camping spots in popular areas. I take your point of some youtube wild campers who take beer ( never me ) but they do seem to be responsible and always promote Leave No Trace. All I think we can do is to drive home this message all the time and challenge any poor behaviour if we see it, to support the landowners and the rest of us who respect the countryside.
If it is private land used for shooting, then it is not your business, is it?
It depends what you consider private. In Scotland so long as you follow the guidance this would not have been a problem. On reflection, in this case, I think asking us to move on was not unreasonable as potentially we were interfering with their work. Fair enough. But I think we need a long hard look at how our land is managed. At the moment huge amounts are used for the pleasure of a very small number of people. Is that fair ?
@@huntonthetrails It is entirely fair because the owner is using it the way he sees fit. If you want to have a say on how other people’s land is used, then that is unfair. I don’t get to have say on your property. You could buy your own land and invite wild campers to use it. Note that would be fair because you, the owner, are exercising your rights.
But should the 'owner' of a large area of open land in England have exclusive access to it ? I'm not talking about someone's back garden or property, I'm talking about large areas of wild land. I am not privileged enough to ever have enough money to buy these large estates which have in many cases been passed down through generations of a family. Landowners, so long as they act within the law, can do as they wish as far as I am concerned as in Scotland, but it surely it does not mean that others should not be able to enjoy these spaces.
Totally agree mate. As you stated, the main view of many that don’t do wildcamping is that folks always leave mess.
I think we need to define what wild camping is. It's not rocking up in your car and pitching next to it. It's camping in remoter, quieter places reached on foot. Staying overnight, leaving next morning and leave no trace. I think so much of the litter and waste is not wild camping but car camping.
100% agree. I don't recognise what I do in the same bracket as dirty car campers.
Carnt believe he moved you both on …. What harm were you doing 😢
Well none. I think he would have been ok with it but he was very concerned if his gaffer found out. There was clearly a procedure for not tolerating camping anywhere on this estate.
I honestly don't know why you're making an issue out of it. By your own admission it's the first time you've been caught and moved on after hundreds of wild camps over nearly forty years. 🤷♂️
It's a good way of looking at it. However, it's more of a principle. I have only ever had one speeding ticket yet have probably driven above the speed limit many times. I know speeding is not right despite the fact I only got caught once and I try to make sure I don't speed. At the moment with wild camping I willingly know that I am not following the rules and I don't like it. I want to do the right thing. Not speeding makes sense, not wild camping doesn't as with the latter I don't think I am potentially hurting anyone.
@@huntonthetrails
Buddy, I'm a wild camper too so agree with what you're saying. I just think only being moved on once in all that time makes it not that much of an issue for you or for that matter most if not all respectful, sensible wild campers who follow the wild camping codes for good conduct. Putting aside what you say about access rights, greedy landowners etc; which as I've said I agree with you on I think the issues with people getting caught and moved on are a little more simple. In my honest opinion a good majority of times folk are getting moved on is because wild camping has become fashionable amongst the TikTok generation who don't respect the countryside, landowners, farmers and the local communities as much and these in most cases are the people getting caught and told to leave. They park in front of farmers gates, leave litter, chop down live trees for fires and are not responsible with said fires. They bring their loud music, drink and become loud/rowdy and often if caught are abusive and aggressive. They camp on or beside footpaths, defecate in farm buildings, caves, on the path/ground instead of away from paths and water sources and don't bury it. These in the main are the people who are getting caught and turfed off the land and these are the people who are making landowners, farmers, locals etc; become ever more intolerant of wild campers... but these are also the people who will then cry victim when they do get chucked off the land. I've seen this myself and have also heard and read of many cases like this by other people. I also know some park rangers and farmers who've basically said the same when I've spoken to them about it so whilst I'm obviously all for better access rights for wild camping in England I'm also sympathetic to some of the frustrations of landowners, farmers etc;
We definitely have the same viewpoint. I too am very sympathetic to farmers and landowners who have to deal with dirty campers. The actions of these people are intolerable ( that is my polite way of putting it !) We have to try and educate these people into leave no trace and challenge poor behaviour when we encounter it. I think there needs to be a clear definition of what wild camping is, such as in the Scottish Access Code. These dirty campers could be moved on as they do not follow these guidelines and those of us who are responsible could wild camp knowing we are following the rules.
The actions of a few
The same sort of people who litter and flytip. Leave no trace education is needed
Yip where's that kinder scout spirit gone.England and Wales still suffering from land access suppression..next anniversary of kinder get a documentary on prime time tv with a few celebrates (mel Gibson brave heart😊) etc and see how relates to current land access issues
There was certainly an outcry in Dartmoor with the court case there. Hopefully right to roam is gaining momentum.
Surely it’s up to the landowner. I doubt your 10 minute video will make any difference.
Oh I doubt it will too. However, when you look at larger organisations like Right to Roam they are putting more pressure on politically for greater access to open countryside. When you start to look at at actually who 'owns' the land in this country it opens your eyes.
aybe with a new gvernment we could get change? I cannot see anything happening under the Tories, we will send John Prescott in again to sort them out
Well at least someone like him who will not take no for an answer 😀
It’s going to be very difficult for you guys to change the law there in England. Many lawmakers are the very types that enjoy Grousing.
I’m tired of the argument that Grouse shooting supports the local economy, what, a few gamekeepers to poison the local birds of prey and move on wild campers? Don’t make me laugh.
You need the same law as Scotland and the Scandinavian countries, Allemansratten they call it, the right for all men to roam. Nature belongs to all of us, not just toffs that like to blast semi tame birds out the skies.
I totally agree with you. I'm hoping some changes may be on the way. I've noticed that United utilities and Scottish Power have both now banned grouse shooting on their land. Small steps maybe. I personally wouldn't require grouse shooting banned although I don't get why anyone would want to do it. But regulation and access needs to change.
@@huntonthetrails You’re so right. It is a good move from UU and Scottish Power, hopefully this is just the start.
Small steps.