I googled a question about the differences in chain mail and your video appeared at the top of the results so I clicked and watched, I was still expecting to have part of my question unanswered (as is often the case with many such UA-cam videos). However, you answered every question I had (and a lot more more plus!), and answered brilliantly at that. The images you inserted were just right, as they were clear, the right size, and a great choice of what to show and (which is just as important in an explanation video), what not to show. Oh and finally you did in in English which is not your first language (which certainly puts me (and most other Brits) to shame!!) It’s brilliant video, thank you for making it.
Thank you, William, for letting me know so enthusiasticly that this is relevant to you! I wasn't quite sure whether it's actually reaching people who have these unanswered questions. With your feedback you make me feel quite proud. :)
Love everything about this content. Entertaining and educational. Im doing all my homework before I start on my own suit, alot of incredible info from you.
Probably a stupid question, but how historically inaccurate would the use of solid rings be in combination with my riveted rings? It'd have to cut the time by a bit, but I wouldn't want to have it look odd from a historical perspective.
@@jeremycline1651 Not much at all. There were combinations of riveted and solid rings. Solid rings however can mean that they were made by punching, drifting or welding. In the end they look pretty much the same when they are properly sanded. I would make sure that the solid rings are not super wide like actual washers. And I'd try to make the inner diameters of both ring types match.
@@jeremycline1651 Do you want them butted or riveted..? Next thing is for what do want to use your Mailshirt at all..!? If you want fight in Full contact I would prefer always riveted ones.
I have been doing re-enactment for a long time and remember researching this years ago. My portrayal is a Norman Templar Knight Brother Circa 1190. My research was years ago so I cannot sight specific reference. I remember finding out that most maille was round ringed dome riveted. I remember reading that the flat ringed wedge riveted was more German and a bit later period. I also remember that due to this information I was going to buy new maille because mine was flat ringed wedge riveted. I would have to say that after using my armor over 20 years that modern flat ringed maille, at least mine, is thin and doesn’t hold up to combat well. I find my rings bend and distort easily and the rivets are prone to ripping through the ring. I would think that the round rings would be stronger. More beef to them. Also the domed rivets seem to not be so apts to pull through the ring. I saw a couple examples at a museum that was hosting the Tower of London collection and if I remember they were round ringed dome riveted. If anyone does have a source on this please post it? By the way I never did replace my maille. Still using the flat ring wedge riveted.
From what I found the wedge compared to the round rivet would create a flat side that is less likely to damage your outfit when on the bottom. Being flat means the rings also fit together easier and assemble easier. Id say its kind of the economic choice, its easier to hammer the whole thing flat than it is to just hammer the ends together and keep it round
I think I prefer flat rings. It's not because of any physical benefit, it just looks better. The inner diameter is smaller so like you said it looks fuller.
That apparently was how shirts of mail went together. The mail maker would knit up an inventory of rectangular mailpatches and expansion triangles ahead of time. When a shirt was ordered, these shapes would be zipped together as required to make the shirt, modular sleeve of mail, or other article.
What's an expansion triangle? It contains extra links woven in to widen things, by one link at a time. Where plain weave mail has four links linked into one, an expansion gets five in there. When the next link-row of plain weave mail gets to there, it just plainly weaves into the extra link and continues on -- just that row is now one link longer. Expansion triangles are edged in regular plain weave mail all around their peripherals, so they just zip right in to the rest of the mail. All the fancy stuff is hidden in its center. These extra triangles give necessary slack behind your shoulders, upon your shoulder blades. There's more. An expansion triangle becomes a contraction triangle if turned point down instead of point up. The upper back of your mailshirt will thus have extra width and slack in the upper body for free movement, and then uses a contraction triangle to taper towards your waist. Some closeness there helps your shirt not slide through your waist belt that helps distribute the shirt's appreciable weight. Weighs like a backpack, clings like a sweater.
I like it how you bring up good arguments to your statements and so add a lot of credibility and authority. Also excellent to say: "Honest answer: I don't know..." and then explain why. Makes you very trustworthy. And a lot of good information too!
Chainmail is a tricky thing in historcal context, because it is so easy for smiths to recycle or for a piece to pass from owner to owner for a 150 years or more, due to its flexibility and relative ease of repair.
Well kept mail has a shelf life of about six hundred years in the race between corrosion and cleaning. Pent-roof, shaped overlaps seem appreciably stronger. Half & half riveted links and punched out solid links is also very strong and speedier to assemble. Get steel spacer rings (lighter than the modern washer, but manufactured the same way. Order these in in ten-thousands. Expect to consume about 30,000 per hauberk or haburgeon. Also, get the solid spacer rings in thinner metal than the wire riveted links. Tumble these ri ngs in an aggressive medium to round off their corners so the whole fabric becomes smoother to the touch and does not wear on your gambeson.
I'm a big fan of how round rings look generally, but as a person who makes chainmail I must say riveted flat rings will always be more impressive. Incredibly envious of your skills. Making a ring for each subscriber is awesome! Here's hoping we make a hauberk
Here is a quick way to make flat rings quickly without having to hammer each one individually: Take a piece of 2-3 inch steel pipe and a piece of bar stock that fits almost perfectly inside with a flat bottom. Put your preferred wire type in the pipe in an even spread on your anvil, and slam or hammer down the bar stock on top of the rings to flatten a good bunch at a time.
Nice video, the location add a lot of character to the topic. It's always fun and useful and inspirational to watch your content. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Can you make videos about testing the maille? I'm very interesting to see what kind of medieval weapons points can penetrate without thrusting (just pushing.) maille + padding.
The flat rings are wider in the plane of the ring. That could make them more resistent to being bent open. In turn, they would be weaker against being bent out of plane, but that shouldn't matter, since the maille would just move with such a force.
So I'm making a riveted shirt and mine is mostly going to be a larp piece with occasional light sparing with metal weapons and I plan to use round rings in pinch points like in the armpits, around the collar, and trim. I know in that these locations have a lot of movement and sweat is going to collect there so I reason that the round rivets will provide not only a light mobility advantage but a maintenance advantage as those target areas will clean themselves more easily. Great video, I'm still making my shirt and it's helped me in my process.
Visually, I like the look of flat rings. A suit made up of flat rings looks less see through if that makes sense. However, I can't dismiss the practicality of round rings being essentially able to "self clean" themselves from rust because of their surface contact. If I were a warrior in the past with enough money to invest in a suit of mail, I would go with round rings, but me living in the 21st century and more interested in aesthetics I would go with flat rings. Love the video!
Mail link wire tended to wear into a roughly D shaped cross section, the flatter part being on the interior. This might take a long time. It is not always seen on all mail .
Hello from Spain. I just begun this week my first chain mail. I am doing 4-1 european pattern ,with rings. I like both, but the flat ones personally look more badass.
I dont know what you could lern something from me, but I actually lerned a lot from you, just finished my firs mail, a butted one and now I am experementing with making a rivited mail. I think I will make this partially flatened. Thank you
I believe that flat rings are better in a few ways. First for comfort in that they lay flatter against the protective top under them. Second I believe they would help more in spreading out the impact better so that it helps reduce damage to your body just from the blow of the arrow that doesn't penetrate. Third is two fold, in that the flat rings are harder to stretch open being stronger from the thickening of the metal from inside the ring to the outside of the ring and mishaping and the hole being smaller help protect a bit better from the thin daggers and foils. The hole being smaller give a better chance of blocking the blade and if it does go into the hole it will be harder to push through and into your body. But these strengths are a weakness against a heavier slashing weapon, since they could be slashed through easier due to the thinning of the ring from front to back. The best way of strengthening this type of armor would be to have more carbon in the steel and to make something akin to spring steel flat rings. That would be harder and more damage resistant, resistant to stretching too and still be workable in putting the rings together. Sorta like a key ring that can be spread open and then it snaps back together to install the pin. This is just my hypothesis on the pros of flat rings and a possible way to increase the strength and durability a bit against most weapons of the time that it was meant to protect you from in general. I have no hands on experience with armor at all, but I think I'm right about the flat ring pros. I would think the spring steel idea should work if the formula is found to make the spring steel the same consistantly, tempering the steel only after getting the ring to the final shape needed. But I understand it will then be a bit outside of the scope in keeping it historically accurate as possible. Great videos by the way. Subscribed. 😁👍
@Ironskin. What you said is right. But I saw in a Museum a very good example of one. The Rings where very thin at all, sure it losses a bit of the substance because of the age. When I remember me right it was build between 1200 and probably mid 1300th AD. I am bulding myself some of this piece of Art. If you wanna do some reenactment it is more important to look for the right stuff. I am talking about the Historical correct Rings and about the saftey reason if you want to fight in full contact. Some People,specially beginners think a butted one is safe enough..NO IT`S NOT SAFE. so please keep your customers informed about it. I will always ask my customers for what they want to use it or the Rings. Anyways I like your Videos and I hope your HOmepage is running good..! Take care and best regards from North Germany.
Good night !!! I'm from Brazil I believe that the flat ring is better when it comes to defense, as it covers the holes in the joints more, but it also makes the mesh a little less malleable, more rigid we can say. I'm doing my flat, because I'm using a spot welding machine instead of rivets, and the weld really behaves better than the rivets, here's the tip !!! hug, continue with your work I am your fan, thank you !!!!
Maybe I'm naive, but I haven't seen discussion about this online much, so thanks for bringing it up! Personally, I flatten the rings until I get what I think is a wide enough area in the over-lap to pierce my hole. The resulting flatness of the ring is basically the secondary consideration. One more thing to consider is whether you over-lap the rings before or after flattening. It's trickier to bend an over-lap into a flattened ring.
I adopted a two-stage flattening method with just a hammer on a hard steel plate. Don't back your links on concrete! It can't take it. 1. Flatten the link ends using optimally a 4 lb drilling hammer. These flattened ends -- not much flattening on the rest of the link -- allows these ends to stay overlapped in the third manufacturing step. 2. Overlap the link ends by rolling them strung upon a smaller diameter steel rod, and pressing down onto a hard surface, I press down with a length of stout plank as the pressing tool. I like to start with a 3/8" ID link, and squash it to 5/16" ID. This gives a 3/16" overlap of link ends. 3. Hammer final flatten these shrunk links. They're ready to get rivet holes drifted into them and need to be swaged into the pent roof cross section for tightest riveting - cross section about like .
Maille from flat rings is stiffer than from round rings. At the very least, getting in and out is harder for that reason. You might even have to increase the circumference in some places to make it more flexible again. That of course would mean more effort and more weight. Also, completely flat rings can have sharp edges and that will do something with the materials touching the maille. E.g. a coat of plates or brigandine, with their plates being inside and directly in contact with the maille, will constantly be scrubbed by the maille (especially with wedge rivets). I believe for that reason they had another layer of fabric between the maille and the coat of plates. In some epitaphs, you can see that covering the armpits, like a sleeveless shirt that is looking a bit from underneath the coat of plates.
I have used your calculator for finding some nice but affordable mail. It is convenient and easy to use. Also, your info about mail and your graphs (from some of your other videos) are informative and insightful. There are a lot of great content creators about medieval stuff and armor, but no one seem to break it down quite like you. I also found myself questioning the effectiveness of round vs flat rings and the use in a historical context and your explanation seems logical and sound. As for the preference I really like the look of flat rings riveted to solid flat rings with a dome rivet. Some questions though. - Would hammering the ring flat make them harder than the round ones? - As the flat rings have a hard edge make glancing blows "stick" to the impact location more often than round rings (Like the binding between two swords)? - If a combination of round and flat rings were used what could conceivably be the best placement for them?
Thank you for the awesome feedback, Martin! It's exiting to know that you appreciate all the details. About your questions: - Depending on the material hammering does make the material harder. That is if there is enough carbon in the iron. Yet I think it is not relevant. It's much more important how far the rivet connection stays intact. - I don't think it's a thing. Well you might observe that blades get more caught in modern flat rings than modern round rings. But that is only because the rivet heads are crazy big and for the round rings the rivet heads are in a less exposed position. Historic rivet heads are small and smoth - especially after usage. Blades edges tend to slide off both types of rings. And blade tips will stick in either way. - A combination of round and flat rings is only relevant if one sort of rings has a significantly stronger wire crossection. (Ok, if the flat rings are that flat that they are stiff, I would put them where I want mail to be stiff: for example at the collar.) But I think this differentiation between flat and round is only in our modern minds. We should rather think in cathegories of heavy rings and light rings.
@Ironskin Awesome answers! It makes sense that the hammering would not make the rings that much stronger given the amount of material and same wire cross-section, and that the rivet connection and shape around the rivet connection has more to say about its strength, as you show in the video. Maybe the difference is only in our modern minds. Does it take more effort to flatten a ring compared to just flattening the rivet section? If the effort is the same, and as you mentioned historical rings might not be that flat but more oval. Could it be a preference for the maker? Or did they come to the same conclusion that the round rings could fracture more easily where the flat meets the round part, than the flattened ring (as you show). I am only postulating and we might not know unless there is a source which states that flats are used for x and round for y. As every iteration of armor tries to eliminate some weakness in the design, mail should be no different.
Friend, I am writing to you from Brazil...and I have some questions...in those rings in this video: 1.- What is the final internal diameter of each ring???. 2.- What is the diameter or thickness of the wire used??. 3 - how to better preserve the chain mail?? how to avoid oxidation ...4.- Have you used any chemical protection to protect the chain mail??? Thank you
I think it would be fairly possible that flat rings where preferred when the maile shirt was secondary defence and the main was plate armour , the rings may were flat just to take less space . And maybe in early mediaeval era , were the maile shirt was pretty much stand alone armour , the rings would be round , so they could have more shock absorption.
There a few types mail made large flat mail, there a few islamic mail shirts with inscribed (stamped) rings. The other mail type of really flat mail is the baidana type of mail with it's large often sheet metal washer like rings.
Nice work man. Nice Video. And Nice location! If we assume that the rings were not tempered/quenched after, the flattened or semi-flattened would also have an advantage due to work-hardening, right? I wonder how appreciable it would be. I guess it would depend a lot on the carbon content of the rings too... Do you happen to know about that?
Your thoughs are absolutely correct. Perhaps it is the work-hardening that shows some effects. In the way I do it, I would anneal them again after flattening, so work-hardening get removed though. With these ranges of carbon contents I don't think there is much of a differenc in work-hardening. That means workhardeing takes place but I expect it's extend to be more or less the same.
Some tempering of the finished mail article got done for the last ten percent of performance, if the wire steel contained enough carbon. Also case hardening was sometimes done, again to the finished mail.
For LARP'ers or re-enactors, I'd go for flat rings. My hauberk is fairly large (because I'm fat) and made of mild steel 9mm ID flat rings. It's about 75cm long with elbow-length sleeves. The weight? A bit over 7kg. I've seen aluminum equivalents with round or just smaller diameter rings weigh 9-11kg. Also, I can put it on and take it off without any help. It may take a minute, but it's possible. Anyway, round rings with a smaller diameter will certainly hold up better in actual battle. So unless you're going to compete in one of those crazy medieval free-for-all slugfests, I'd say that flat rings of a larger diameter will be plenty good for most folks. You'll save money and you will save weight 🙂
I have a flat rings Haubergeon. Does it make sense to expand it to a longer hauberk with round rings? Even just butted? Would that look bad/be impractical or very ahistorical?
butted has never been used in history so you can forget that if you want something historical.I dont think it would be bad if it was riveted round rings, maybe you can mix them up?
Ad another ring! Round for me. I currently work on my first homemade maille, it's butted one, I know, ,,amateur " but I promised myself that when I'll finish it, I'll buy a riveted one. BTW I would like to see some tutorials on how to do coifs and and armpits, Ironskin way
Armpits: look up the 'ninety degree join,' as the mail rows approach each other perpendicular. A few inches of this kind of join in the armpit will do it.
Coifs start with an expanding circular metal beanie, then a more cylindrical shape down the sides of the head, and expands circularly again into the shoulder cowl. Out to just over the points of the shoulders.
Best of both worlds sounds logical too. I was just thinking could be dumb but maybe flat rings are easier for the maker. instead of hamering a specific spot they could just flatten the entire ring. they could use a medieval equivalent machine like a power forging hamer.
In fact many modern mail makers think that way and make flat rings. But really it's just a single blow with a rounded hammer for round rings. It's just as quick as flat rings for a trained person: 5 seconds maybe.
Les anneaux ont l'air ronds sur la cotte de mailles attachée au casque en forme de lunettes du 7e siècle dans la tombe à bateau de Valsgärde 8 ainsi que sur une des tombes de Vendel (Suède), les deux d'époque mérovingienne. Les anneaux plats sont peut-être venus plus tard?
Being thicker in radial direction (away from the center of the ring) I'd imagine flat rings are more resistant to being spread/tonr open. (what's the correct term here?)
I make half round half flat on each individual ring , in other words each ring is round on the lower part of the ring and flat on the upper part of the ring .
In my opinion, "better" has to be defined by the user and what type of attack they need to defend against. From the combatants' point of view, the maille that gets them home in one piece is the best maille. The maille that does not get them home was a poor choice for that particular battle. There will always be trade-offs, heavy maille may well be great for a very powerful person, while a lighter weight maille may be prefered by people who are not as powerful and rely on speed and dexterity to survive close combat. I prefer the look of semi-flattened (oval) small diameter rings; they allow me to create a weave with small openings in the mesh, when not overly flattened they maintain good strength, and the finished piece is not incredibly heavy.
I prefer flat rings because it looks better. But there is some other advantage. The fact that you're forging the rings flatter your compressing the molecules more that's making them more dense. Making it more dense is basically adding more strength to the metal with the same mass.
@@stefgrez so I guess that is a myth? I was told this by an armor-smith that I personally know, on the concept of "hammer hardening" or "Work Hardening" or "cold hardening" all the same thing were you're supposedly either compressing or I think stretching the steel or metal which makes it stronger or a bit more dense. This is why things that are forged are stronger than things that are stamped, for example. Or am I confusing it with something else?
@landsknecht8654 No you're friend is right work hardening is real. But the way it works is by changing the way the molecules in steel (iron, carbon) are structured in the metal, which results in harder forms. You can test this by bending a piece of wire up and down until it snaps. The wire is work hardened in the position of the bend, until it is go brittle and it snaps. Density = mass / volume. When you work the rings the volume of the shape doesn't shrink, it just deforms. Also after the rings have been flattened they are annealed (softened), because when you would punch a hole in them they would be too hard/brittle and break.
@@stefgrez Thanks for the refresh. Maybe I missed understand something. So I guess I had the idea right, but the whole process and how it works is kind of wrong???
@landsknecht8654 No problem! What I described falls under material science. If you want to understand the mechanism of hardening in metals I would suggest looking into: How strain works in metals Crystal structures of steel Work hardening/quenching/annealing. You don't need to get too deep into the math bcs it's cancerous af, just try to get a good general understanding. As for the debate of the rings. Imo unless they where treated after the rivet hole is punched, both flat and riveted rings have the same hardness after annealing (same crystalline structure). So any mechanical properties would be due to the geometry of their cross section.
Omg, you dont know anything about mechanics, are you? Round rings might be better against cuts (more crossection against it) flat rings are better against piercing, because the flat one have more crossection against it, not to mention the rivets. Thats why they used it.
I googled a question about the differences in chain mail and your video appeared at the top of the results so I clicked and watched, I was still expecting to have part of my question unanswered (as is often the case with many such UA-cam videos). However, you answered every question I had (and a lot more more plus!), and answered brilliantly at that. The images you inserted were just right, as they were clear, the right size, and a great choice of what to show and (which is just as important in an explanation video), what not to show.
Oh and finally you did in in English which is not your first language (which certainly puts me (and most other Brits) to shame!!)
It’s brilliant video, thank you for making it.
Thank you, William, for letting me know so enthusiasticly that this is relevant to you! I wasn't quite sure whether it's actually reaching people who have these unanswered questions. With your feedback you make me feel quite proud. :)
@@Ironskin No worries, and you absolutely should be proud of yourself!
Love everything about this content. Entertaining and educational. Im doing all my homework before I start on my own suit, alot of incredible info from you.
Thank you for your praise! Just start with a small patch of mail. Although videos like this can be inspirational, it's all about doing it.
Probably a stupid question, but how historically inaccurate would the use of solid rings be in combination with my riveted rings? It'd have to cut the time by a bit, but I wouldn't want to have it look odd from a historical perspective.
@@jeremycline1651 Not much at all. There were combinations of riveted and solid rings. Solid rings however can mean that they were made by punching, drifting or welding. In the end they look pretty much the same when they are properly sanded. I would make sure that the solid rings are not super wide like actual washers. And I'd try to make the inner diameters of both ring types match.
I from in Russia watching
@@jeremycline1651 Do you want them butted or riveted..? Next thing is for what do want to use your Mailshirt at all..!? If you want fight in Full contact I would prefer always riveted ones.
I have been doing re-enactment for a long time and remember researching this years ago. My portrayal is a Norman Templar Knight Brother Circa 1190. My research was years ago so I cannot sight specific reference. I remember finding out that most maille was round ringed dome riveted. I remember reading that the flat ringed wedge riveted was more German and a bit later period. I also remember that due to this information I was going to buy new maille because mine was flat ringed wedge riveted.
I would have to say that after using my armor over 20 years that modern flat ringed maille, at least mine, is thin and doesn’t hold up to combat well. I find my rings bend and distort easily and the rivets are prone to ripping through the ring. I would think that the round rings would be stronger. More beef to them. Also the domed rivets seem to not be so apts to pull through the ring. I saw a couple examples at a museum that was hosting the Tower of London collection and if I remember they were round ringed dome riveted.
If anyone does have a source on this please post it?
By the way I never did replace my maille. Still using the flat ring wedge riveted.
From what I found the wedge compared to the round rivet would create a flat side that is less likely to damage your outfit when on the bottom. Being flat means the rings also fit together easier and assemble easier.
Id say its kind of the economic choice, its easier to hammer the whole thing flat than it is to just hammer the ends together and keep it round
I think I prefer flat rings. It's not because of any physical benefit, it just looks better. The inner diameter is smaller so like you said it looks fuller.
Good video! I love the idea of the subsheet!
Yah I like that, I’m a ring 😃
That apparently was how shirts of mail went together. The mail maker would knit up an inventory of rectangular mailpatches and expansion triangles ahead of time. When a shirt was ordered, these shapes would be zipped together as required to make the shirt, modular sleeve of mail, or other article.
What's an expansion triangle? It contains extra links woven in to widen things, by one link at a time. Where plain weave mail has four links linked into one, an expansion gets five in there. When the next link-row of plain weave mail gets to there, it just plainly weaves into the extra link and continues on -- just that row is now one link longer.
Expansion triangles are edged in regular plain weave mail all around their peripherals, so they just zip right in to the rest of the mail. All the fancy stuff is hidden in its center.
These extra triangles give necessary slack behind your shoulders, upon your shoulder blades.
There's more. An expansion triangle becomes a contraction triangle if turned point down instead of point up. The upper back of your mailshirt will thus have extra width and slack in the upper body for free movement, and then uses a contraction triangle to taper towards your waist. Some closeness there helps your shirt not slide through your waist belt that helps distribute the shirt's appreciable weight. Weighs like a backpack, clings like a sweater.
I love how easy this is to follow! The vibes in these videos are so unique and special
I like it how you bring up good arguments to your statements and so add a lot of credibility and authority. Also excellent to say: "Honest answer: I don't know..." and then explain why. Makes you very trustworthy. And a lot of good information too!
Hey thank you for that well worded compliment! That is very encouraging! :)
Chainmail is a tricky thing in historcal context, because it is so easy for smiths to recycle or for a piece to pass from owner to owner for a 150 years or more, due to its flexibility and relative ease of repair.
Well kept mail has a shelf life of about six hundred years in the race between corrosion and cleaning.
Pent-roof, shaped overlaps seem appreciably stronger.
Half & half riveted links and punched out solid links is also very strong and speedier to assemble. Get steel spacer rings (lighter than the modern washer, but manufactured the same way. Order these in in ten-thousands. Expect to consume about 30,000 per hauberk or haburgeon. Also, get the solid spacer rings in thinner metal than the wire riveted links. Tumble these ri ngs in an aggressive medium to round off their corners so the whole fabric becomes smoother to the touch and does not wear on your gambeson.
I'm a big fan of how round rings look generally, but as a person who makes chainmail I must say riveted flat rings will always be more impressive. Incredibly envious of your skills.
Making a ring for each subscriber is awesome! Here's hoping we make a hauberk
Here is a quick way to make flat rings quickly without having to hammer each one individually: Take a piece of 2-3 inch steel pipe and a piece of bar stock that fits almost perfectly inside with a flat bottom. Put your preferred wire type in the pipe in an even spread on your anvil, and slam or hammer down the bar stock on top of the rings to flatten a good bunch at a time.
Thanks!
Nice video, the location add a lot of character to the topic. It's always fun and useful and inspirational to watch your content. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Can you make videos about testing the maille? I'm very interesting to see what kind of medieval weapons points can penetrate without thrusting (just pushing.) maille + padding.
That's a good idea! :) I'm especially curious how different ring dimensions affect the results.
The flat rings are wider in the plane of the ring. That could make them more resistent to being bent open.
In turn, they would be weaker against being bent out of plane, but that shouldn't matter, since the maille would just move with such a force.
I came here after watching a video about chain mail on the Modern History channel, and I'm glad your video satisfied my curiosity, thank you!
Good information in this video.
I love the idea of adding one ring per subscriber. That be fun to watch grow if you keep it up.
In 2023 he has over 19,000 subscribers... that's a lot of rings. 🙂
I just recently discovered this channel, and I absolutely love it. Very educational and entertaining, keep it up with this good content, bro! :'D
Thank you for the positive vibes! :) That keeps me motivated.
That's a nice analysis, great info man 👍
So I'm making a riveted shirt and mine is mostly going to be a larp piece with occasional light sparing with metal weapons and I plan to use round rings in pinch points like in the armpits, around the collar, and trim. I know in that these locations have a lot of movement and sweat is going to collect there so I reason that the round rivets will provide not only a light mobility advantage but a maintenance advantage as those target areas will clean themselves more easily. Great video, I'm still making my shirt and it's helped me in my process.
Great video! Really enjoyed it.
Visually, I like the look of flat rings. A suit made up of flat rings looks less see through if that makes sense.
However, I can't dismiss the practicality of round rings being essentially able to "self clean" themselves from rust because of their surface contact.
If I were a warrior in the past with enough money to invest in a suit of mail, I would go with round rings, but me living in the 21st century and more interested in aesthetics I would go with flat rings.
Love the video!
Mail link wire tended to wear into a roughly D shaped cross section, the flatter part being on the interior. This might take a long time. It is not always seen on all mail .
Hello from Spain. I just begun this week my first chain mail. I am doing 4-1 european pattern ,with rings. I like both, but the flat ones personally look more badass.
I dont know what you could lern something from me, but I actually lerned a lot from you, just finished my firs mail, a butted one and now I am experementing with making a rivited mail. I think I will make this partially flatened. Thank you
This is a good channel. Keep uploading bro
I believe that flat rings are better in a few ways. First for comfort in that they lay flatter against the protective top under them. Second I believe they would help more in spreading out the impact better so that it helps reduce damage to your body just from the blow of the arrow that doesn't penetrate. Third is two fold, in that the flat rings are harder to stretch open being stronger from the thickening of the metal from inside the ring to the outside of the ring and mishaping and the hole being smaller help protect a bit better from the thin daggers and foils. The hole being smaller give a better chance of blocking the blade and if it does go into the hole it will be harder to push through and into your body.
But these strengths are a weakness against a heavier slashing weapon, since they could be slashed through easier due to the thinning of the ring from front to back.
The best way of strengthening this type of armor would be to have more carbon in the steel and to make something akin to spring steel flat rings. That would be harder and more damage resistant, resistant to stretching too and still be workable in putting the rings together. Sorta like a key ring that can be spread open and then it snaps back together to install the pin.
This is just my hypothesis on the pros of flat rings and a possible way to increase the strength and durability a bit against most weapons of the time that it was meant to protect you from in general.
I have no hands on experience with armor at all, but I think I'm right about the flat ring pros.
I would think the spring steel idea should work if the formula is found to make the spring steel the same consistantly, tempering the steel only after getting the ring to the final shape needed. But I understand it will then be a bit outside of the scope in keeping it historically accurate as possible.
Great videos by the way. Subscribed. 😁👍
@Ironskin. What you said is right. But I saw in a Museum a very good example of one. The Rings where very thin at all, sure it losses a bit of the substance because of the age. When I remember me right it was build between 1200 and probably mid 1300th AD. I am bulding myself some of this piece of Art. If you wanna do some reenactment it is more important to look for the right stuff. I am talking about the Historical correct Rings and about the saftey reason if you want to fight in full contact. Some People,specially beginners think a butted one is safe enough..NO IT`S NOT SAFE. so please keep your customers informed about it. I will always ask my customers for what they want to use it or the Rings. Anyways I like your Videos and I hope your HOmepage is running good..! Take care and best regards from North Germany.
MUY BUENOS TUS VIDEOS, SALUDOS DESDE ARGENTINA..!!!!!
Good night !!!
I'm from Brazil
I believe that the flat ring is better when it comes to defense, as it covers the holes in the joints more, but it also makes the mesh a little less malleable, more rigid we can say.
I'm doing my flat, because I'm using a spot welding machine instead of rivets, and the weld really behaves better than the rivets, here's the tip !!!
hug, continue with your work I am your fan, thank you !!!!
Maybe I'm naive, but I haven't seen discussion about this online much, so thanks for bringing it up!
Personally, I flatten the rings until I get what I think is a wide enough area in the over-lap to pierce my hole. The resulting flatness of the ring is basically the secondary consideration.
One more thing to consider is whether you over-lap the rings before or after flattening. It's trickier to bend an over-lap into a flattened ring.
I see it like you. Some people raised the question, but not many thoughs have been shared about it.
I adopted a two-stage flattening method with just a hammer on a hard steel plate. Don't back your links on concrete! It can't take it.
1. Flatten the link ends using optimally a 4 lb drilling hammer. These flattened ends -- not much flattening on the rest of the link -- allows these ends to stay overlapped in the third manufacturing step.
2. Overlap the link ends by rolling them strung upon a smaller diameter steel rod, and pressing down onto a hard surface, I press down with a length of stout plank as the pressing tool. I like to start with a 3/8" ID link, and squash it to 5/16" ID. This gives a 3/16" overlap of link ends.
3. Hammer final flatten these shrunk links. They're ready to get rivet holes drifted into them and need to be swaged into the pent roof cross section for tightest riveting - cross section about like .
You are a legend man. Thank you ❣️
Maille from flat rings is stiffer than from round rings. At the very least, getting in and out is harder for that reason. You might even have to increase the circumference in some places to make it more flexible again. That of course would mean more effort and more weight. Also, completely flat rings can have sharp edges and that will do something with the materials touching the maille. E.g. a coat of plates or brigandine, with their plates being inside and directly in contact with the maille, will constantly be scrubbed by the maille (especially with wedge rivets). I believe for that reason they had another layer of fabric between the maille and the coat of plates. In some epitaphs, you can see that covering the armpits, like a sleeveless shirt that is looking a bit from underneath the coat of plates.
I have used your calculator for finding some nice but affordable mail. It is convenient and easy to use. Also, your info about mail and your graphs (from some of your other videos) are informative and insightful. There are a lot of great content creators about medieval stuff and armor, but no one seem to break it down quite like you. I also found myself questioning the effectiveness of round vs flat rings and the use in a historical context and your explanation seems logical and sound.
As for the preference I really like the look of flat rings riveted to solid flat rings with a dome rivet.
Some questions though.
- Would hammering the ring flat make them harder than the round ones?
- As the flat rings have a hard edge make glancing blows "stick" to the impact location more often than round rings (Like the binding between two swords)?
- If a combination of round and flat rings were used what could conceivably be the best placement for them?
Thank you for the awesome feedback, Martin! It's exiting to know that you appreciate all the details. About your questions:
- Depending on the material hammering does make the material harder. That is if there is enough carbon in the iron. Yet I think it is not relevant. It's much more important how far the rivet connection stays intact.
- I don't think it's a thing. Well you might observe that blades get more caught in modern flat rings than modern round rings. But that is only because the rivet heads are crazy big and for the round rings the rivet heads are in a less exposed position. Historic rivet heads are small and smoth - especially after usage. Blades edges tend to slide off both types of rings. And blade tips will stick in either way.
- A combination of round and flat rings is only relevant if one sort of rings has a significantly stronger wire crossection. (Ok, if the flat rings are that flat that they are stiff, I would put them where I want mail to be stiff: for example at the collar.) But I think this differentiation between flat and round is only in our modern minds. We should rather think in cathegories of heavy rings and light rings.
@Ironskin Awesome answers! It makes sense that the hammering would not make the rings that much stronger given the amount of material and same wire cross-section, and that the rivet connection and shape around the rivet connection has more to say about its strength, as you show in the video. Maybe the difference is only in our modern minds.
Does it take more effort to flatten a ring compared to just flattening the rivet section? If the effort is the same, and as you mentioned historical rings might not be that flat but more oval. Could it be a preference for the maker? Or did they come to the same conclusion that the round rings could fracture more easily where the flat meets the round part, than the flattened ring (as you show). I am only postulating and we might not know unless there is a source which states that flats are used for x and round for y. As every iteration of armor tries to eliminate some weakness in the design, mail should be no different.
Really informational thank you!
Friend, I am writing to you from Brazil...and I have some questions...in those rings in this video: 1.- What is the final internal diameter of each ring???. 2.- What is the diameter or thickness of the wire used??. 3 - how to better preserve the chain mail?? how to avoid oxidation ...4.- Have you used any chemical protection to protect the chain mail??? Thank you
I think it would be fairly possible that flat rings where preferred when the maile shirt was secondary defence and the main was plate armour , the rings may were flat just to take less space .
And maybe in early mediaeval era , were the maile shirt was pretty much stand alone armour , the rings would be round , so they could have more shock absorption.
Hello from Kentucky USA. I am struck by how similar looking your woods are to those here.
Wow that's surprising. That's southern Germany.
Great video. Thank you.
There a few types mail made large flat mail, there a few islamic mail shirts with inscribed (stamped) rings.
The other mail type of really flat mail is the baidana type of mail with it's large often sheet metal washer like rings.
But thinner than modern washers, or you couldn't bear its weight.
Nice work man. Nice Video. And Nice location!
If we assume that the rings were not tempered/quenched after, the flattened or semi-flattened would also have an advantage due to work-hardening, right? I wonder how appreciable it would be. I guess it would depend a lot on the carbon content of the rings too... Do you happen to know about that?
Your thoughs are absolutely correct. Perhaps it is the work-hardening that shows some effects. In the way I do it, I would anneal them again after flattening, so work-hardening get removed though. With these ranges of carbon contents I don't think there is much of a differenc in work-hardening. That means workhardeing takes place but I expect it's extend to be more or less the same.
@@Ironskin Well, if i think about it, there'd be no point in annealing after flattening if it didn't have an affect, right? :D
@@brudder382 I do that to make the work-hardened overlap area soft before I punch or drift the rivet hole. That lets my tools last longer.
Hardened rings might not be the best option. They may crack and fail, where an annealed ring would bend.
Some tempering of the finished mail article got done for the last ten percent of performance, if the wire steel contained enough carbon. Also case hardening was sometimes done, again to the finished mail.
For LARP'ers or re-enactors, I'd go for flat rings. My hauberk is fairly large (because I'm fat) and made of mild steel 9mm ID flat rings. It's about 75cm long with elbow-length sleeves. The weight? A bit over 7kg. I've seen aluminum equivalents with round or just smaller diameter rings weigh 9-11kg. Also, I can put it on and take it off without any help. It may take a minute, but it's possible. Anyway, round rings with a smaller diameter will certainly hold up better in actual battle. So unless you're going to compete in one of those crazy medieval free-for-all slugfests, I'd say that flat rings of a larger diameter will be plenty good for most folks. You'll save money and you will save weight 🙂
Aesthetically I prefer flat rings. But it's very subjective
I have a flat rings Haubergeon. Does it make sense to expand it to a longer hauberk with round rings? Even just butted? Would that look bad/be impractical or very ahistorical?
butted has never been used in history so you can forget that if you want something historical.I dont think it would be bad if it was riveted round rings, maybe you can mix them up?
Ad another ring!
Round for me. I currently work on my first homemade maille, it's butted one, I know, ,,amateur " but I promised myself that when I'll finish it, I'll buy a riveted one.
BTW I would like to see some tutorials on how to do coifs and and armpits, Ironskin way
Armpits: look up the 'ninety degree join,' as the mail rows approach each other perpendicular. A few inches of this kind of join in the armpit will do it.
Coifs start with an expanding circular metal beanie, then a more cylindrical shape down the sides of the head, and expands circularly again into the shoulder cowl. Out to just over the points of the shoulders.
a rectangular section with the same area of a round section has a greater Wx so it should be more difficult to open a flat ring.
Thanks for the video! I'm planning on making some chain mail myself and was wondering if the rings being round mattered or not.
Almost not. Mail links have very large tolerances. Except at the rivet joint, which must be tightly, neatly clinched.
Wasn't flat ring mail popular in Europe since the Crusades?
Best of both worlds sounds logical too. I was just thinking could be dumb but maybe flat rings are easier for the maker. instead of hamering a specific spot they could just flatten the entire ring. they could use a medieval
equivalent machine like a power forging hamer.
In fact many modern mail makers think that way and make flat rings. But really it's just a single blow with a rounded hammer for round rings. It's just as quick as flat rings for a trained person: 5 seconds maybe.
Historic 12th century top end Muslim chain mail was flat with Arabic text forged on every link using a coining die.
Nice video skin.
Hey iron skin what ring size an wire size should I go with for a higher weight but still good an flexible an durable
Les anneaux ont l'air ronds sur la cotte de mailles attachée au casque en forme de lunettes du 7e siècle dans la tombe à bateau de Valsgärde 8 ainsi que sur une des tombes de Vendel (Suède), les deux d'époque mérovingienne. Les anneaux plats sont peut-être venus plus tard?
Being thicker in radial direction (away from the center of the ring) I'd imagine flat rings are more resistant to being spread/tonr open. (what's the correct term here?)
Read an article about this. You are correct. The tensile strength of flat rings is actually higher.
God I wish I could buy a hauberk from WETA workshop, who did the chainmail in "Kingdom of Heaven" "Robin Hood" and "Lord of the Rings",
I make half round half flat on each individual ring , in other words each ring is round on the lower part of the ring and flat on the upper part of the ring .
Seems like also something that could just be the smith's preference
Where is audio? :/
Hullo Sir, you have a really interesting and useful website, please, do you ship to Italy?
Si, lo faccio certamente.
@@Ironskin do you speak Italian, too?
In my opinion, "better" has to be defined by the user and what type of attack they need to defend against.
From the combatants' point of view, the maille that gets them home in one piece is the best maille. The maille that does not get them home was a poor choice for that particular battle.
There will always be trade-offs, heavy maille may well be great for a very powerful person, while a lighter weight maille may be prefered by people who are not as powerful and rely on speed and dexterity to survive close combat.
I prefer the look of semi-flattened (oval) small diameter rings; they allow me to create a weave with small openings in the mesh, when not overly flattened they maintain good strength, and the finished piece is not incredibly heavy.
Good point that you are raising! In fact "better" is not that easy to define. I like your view on the topic.
Riveted chainmail are basically small unsharpened chakrams 😂
Final!!!
I from in Russia
And the correct answer is “yes”.
You have 1.49 thousand channel subscribers.
Then I better start growing the sheet bigger.
That in 8 or 9mm links is about one haburgeon .
Thst must be a pretty big sheet now
I prefer flat rings because it looks better. But there is some other advantage.
The fact that you're forging the rings flatter your compressing the molecules more that's making them more dense. Making it more dense is basically adding more strength to the metal with the same mass.
Density doesn't work like that. Metal is non-compressible
@@stefgrez so I guess that is a myth?
I was told this by an armor-smith that I personally know, on the concept of "hammer hardening" or "Work Hardening" or "cold hardening" all the same thing were you're supposedly either compressing or I think stretching the steel or metal which makes it stronger or a bit more dense. This is why things that are forged are stronger than things that are stamped, for example.
Or am I confusing it with something else?
@landsknecht8654 No you're friend is right work hardening is real. But the way it works is by changing the way the molecules in steel (iron, carbon) are structured in the metal, which results in harder forms.
You can test this by bending a piece of wire up and down until it snaps. The wire is work hardened in the position of the bend, until it is go brittle and it snaps.
Density = mass / volume. When you work the rings the volume of the shape doesn't shrink, it just deforms.
Also after the rings have been flattened they are annealed (softened), because when you would punch a hole in them they would be too hard/brittle and break.
@@stefgrez Thanks for the refresh. Maybe I missed understand something. So I guess I had the idea right, but the whole process and how it works is kind of wrong???
@landsknecht8654 No problem! What I described falls under material science. If you want to understand the mechanism of hardening in metals I would suggest looking into:
How strain works in metals
Crystal structures of steel
Work hardening/quenching/annealing.
You don't need to get too deep into the math bcs it's cancerous af, just try to get a good general understanding.
As for the debate of the rings. Imo unless they where treated after the rivet hole is punched, both flat and riveted rings have the same hardness after annealing (same crystalline structure). So any mechanical properties would be due to the geometry of their cross section.
How i do a round ring?
You make a ring from wire. Then you strike it with a hammer but you only hit the wire ends.
Make me a white paint color ring hehehe I'm subscriber 2650
:D
Qué pena no esté subtitulado
the only flat ring find i know of is the "Tofta coif", i can't think of any with round rings, so the overwhelming majority seem to be oval.
There is also the Coif from the Scottish National Museum in Edinburgh with flat rings and many more.
@@Ironskin ah! forgot about the scottish one!
To many variables to nail down,
I subbed, go add a ring pls. k thx!
Interesting vid with a few good points.
you got my sub, add a ring for me
Deutsche Beschreibung und dann auf Englisch erzählen sehr sinnig!
Omg, you dont know anything about mechanics, are you? Round rings might be better against cuts (more crossection against it) flat rings are better against piercing, because the flat one have more crossection against it, not to mention the rivets. Thats why they used it.