If this Byte left you hungry for more, please, enjoy the entrée and feast yourself on this playlist of all my in-depth Pokemon reviews! ua-cam.com/play/PLz5XeL444xPATlw8IQd082Xy2ow7bzGiD.html Also check out blisy's video about building VGC teams: ua-cam.com/video/_p-PAnQ4lAc/v-deo.html
From an RPG standpoint, I love EVs: it's so cool that the stats of your pokemon reflect where they were trained. Unfortunately, making something difficult or tedious in an attempt to deter players is a recipe for disaster -- it ensures that the players who "want it the most" will ruin their experience of the game, and that those who play the game for enjoyment have no competitive footing to stand on. This was such a cool deep dive. Great video!
I have recently watched some reviews of board games that talk about the idea that "players will optimise the fun out of their experience", and I think that's such a great observation. It's a hard balance to get right, but while making something tedious might put MOST players off, it means the people who are actually most invested in your game end up having the least enjoyable experience
The real problem with EVs is that you have no control over where they get invested or even that it exists or where they are limited. Everytime this specific discussion is brought up, I tell people that GF has an easy way out by making EVs skill points that you can stockpile and use whenever you want and it would work in the same way that it always has (skill points used can't be taken out and invested somewhere else and you have a cap to how many you can get) or just fucking let the player invest their EVs on their Pokemon as they want so they can change it up to *experiment* with their Pokemon. This makes it accessible to everyone to have good Pokemon legally and also experiment with making their Pokemon offensive, defensive or give specific EVs in specific stats so they can pull interesting stuff in battle AND also gives that control entirely to the player. The problem is that Pokemon is way too comfortable with it's core gameplay which will probably never change that this will never happen unless Pokemon is owned by a different company or another company is let to experiment with a side or main game by TPC. But skill points has been a staple of RPGs and I'm ashamed Pokemon hasn't treated EVs like so a long time ago.
The interesting thing here is that EV in Gen 1 and 2 was somehow better (not necessarily for competitive). It's extremely simple. You beat monsters, you get Stat experience (it was already call EVs back then, but I feel stat experience represent what's going on pretty well) equal to their strength, with stronger monsters giving naturally more EV. It adds another level of balance, since stronger monsters obtained later will have naturally less EV than the one you've used the whole game. By traveling and fighting together, your Rattata could really become 100% and be stronger than your friend's Tauros they just caught. A great, if rudimentary, representation of the relationship you've built up together. Just stuffing your Pokemon with Rare Candies instead of training them the normal way was always going to grant you inferior Pokemon. Obviously it's very grindy, and don't offer as much variation as the current system (Every Pokemon was super bulky and fast while hitting like trucks), but for a single games, and for casual battles with friends, it was honestly brilliant.
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 Wasn't that like, the worst system? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's the classic "strong Pokemon get stronger and weak Pokemon don't matter", but I dunno how non-capped EVs is better than capped EVs. That's the system that made Snorlax unkillable.
Just gotta say, I think these shorter Tama Bytes videos have been a great idea. Not only is it great to see more regular uploads from you (seriously, I was NOT expecting to see a new video so soon after the Colosseum one), but I also think you're analytical style w/ regards to discussing the pokémon games is perfect for zeroing in on specific mechanics like this and not just entire games. Your videos always leave me with something new to think about when it comes to how I play pokémon.
As a competitive player, the idea of an official version of pokemon showdown with actual graphics and regular balance patches sounds like a dream come true and it could theoretically solve this problem entirely. I cannot even fathom a reason why they haven't done that yet, honestly.
I think that a modern day Pokémon Stadium game with stuff straight out of Battle Revolution and a ton of emphasis on competitive battles could make for an "official PKMN showdown". The Wii game had so many flags to check for Pokémon to be available in specific stadiums and modes. If they made a game like that, but with a hardcore clear focus on competitive battles, tons of rewards for those aiming high and constant updates? That would change how people play Pokémon.
Probably because it's not catering to a large enough audience to make sense allotting time and resources to. Showdown is a great enough alternative for those looking for competitive Pokemon and GF even acknowledges that project.
I think it comes down to monetization. Nintendo isn't going to offer a platform like that unless it'll pay off big time for them. Would you be willing to pay a small amount per battle or a monthly/annual subscription for access to Nintendo's version of that while Showdown still exists? Would enough competitive players be willing to do so that the money-hungry executives would be willing to greenlight the project?
I think you should do a video on contests and the frontier itself, and why it died out. Like gen 5 didn't have contests or a battle frontier, and now stuff is pushed to the side, if they have it at all.
Really glad you mentioned the Gen 1 balance. I find it incredibly impressive just how good a grasp the development team seemed to have on what was good in generation 1, the only real misjudgements they seemed to make on that front was overestimating the Fire type. It's not even just types, mechanics like the old crit boosted moves, wrap clones, and speed based crits were things they seemed to very seriously consider for balance - see pokemon like Persian, Dugtrio, Arbok, Sandslash, Kingler, Victreebel, Electrode, and more: many of them would go on to be very underwhelming or end up heavily relying on some other newly introduced element like a strong ability to be worth using, but they were all at least in the better half of the pack in generation 1. They're all notably awful in Gen 2, which has almost had me thinking about just how late into development all these iconic Gen 1 lost mechanics were removed. The optimization element is also one I think started a lot sooner than in Gen 3. Gen 2 competitive is pretty notorious for revolving around Snorlax; even when all legendaries are allowed it is still considered the best individual pokemon in the game. There are three things Snorlax loves more than anything; Curse, Rest + Sleep Talk, and Leftovers. Curse, Rest, and Sleep Talk are available via single use TMs, and Leftovers are an item you can only get from catching wild Snorlax, of which there is only one. These are things that every single player was expected to have *one* of. They all have very wide applicability, so you can use them in a wide variety of ways, but the intention was pretty clearly for players to only be equipped with a single one of each. To be fair, Generation 1 also had several powerful TMs you could only obtain one of, but there was a decent amount of overlap; you could get multiple similar moves in many cases (Thunder and Thunderbolt), or many pokemon could just naturally learn the moves via leveling up. Curse, Rest, and Sleep Talk did not fit this. Assuming you didn't trade for additional TMs, only a fairly small pool of Pokemon you could learn Rest, you could only get 1 other Pokemon with access to (non-Ghost) type Curse in Slowpoke, and no pokemon learn Sleep Talk without the TM. So when the optimized competitive form of Generation 2 came to consistently include games where many teams have multiple users of Curse, most teams have multiple users of Rest + Sleep Talk, and every single team gives every single pokemon a copy of Leftovers? That's when the gap between players with and without resources really started to become uncrossable. 6 copies of Leftovers, which are only available in Kanto, would've been a big time investment. (and none of this is touching on Hidden Power!) Which is funny considering Snorlax itself was almost certainly specifically designed to work against this! I highly doubt Snorlax being the best when combined with all three of these elements was an accident: it even comes prepacked with Rest to combo with Sleep Talk and Curse. But also, as a super slow opponent, Snorlax is a lot more vulnerable to getting worn down by critical hits or lucky flinches than most. In other words, it was a lot more vulnerable to all those luck based little kid strategies than something like, say, Mewtwo, which was more or less an unstoppable bulldozer once it got going unless you managed to paralyze, sleep, or freeze it.
If we talk about game mechanics I would like to hear your take on the gimmicks the most "recent" generations introduce, I'm talking about Megaevolution, Z-moves, Gigantamax, Terastallize; personally I always hated the fact that they introduce these mechanics just to abandon them entirely the next generation, and in my opinion the megaevolutions were incredibly good to further the evolution aspect of the games adding new designs to pokemon, but others like z-moves just do nothing for me.
While Mega evolution was a benefit to some like Sabeleye, Ampharos, Altaria, etc., others like Charizard and Mewtwo didn't need two megas. And Rayquaza didn't need it at all because Mega Rayquaza broke the gen 6 meta. It was so busted, Smogon had to make the Anything Goes tier. Power creep is definitely a bigger issue here and I don't think it will change anytime soon
I think the balance they have struck right now is actually pretty good. You don't get the fancy tools to make pokemon perfect until you beat the game. You've already formed the bonds with your pokemon because you had a grand adventure with them by that point. The tools to make them perfect just mean you can actually use the pokemon that got you to the end to battle online unlike before where you needed to invest or hack in all new pokemon to do it. At least in theory because in reality it seems there are 10-15 pokemon everyone uses
Exactly. The game/post-game divide is the key. It's a bit unfortunate that the team you used to beat the game won't likely be the ones you use in competitive because of unintentional EV-training, but with the amount of customization you have access to now, they could be.
One thing BDSP did really weird with since the Elite 4 and Cynthia have competitive leaning pokémon with nearly perfect IVs, Iron Fist Infernape, Minimize+Baton Pass Drifblim, and so on before the average player could even have access to making a team that strong more reliably.
@@rasmusn.e.m1064 Yeah the SwSh DLC really added so many things to make it easier. The lady that will completely wipe all EVs off a mon, bulk-buying nutrients to EV train for way cheaper than in the base game. I really hope stuff like that will be in SV as well
I've had that thought of "oh they really need to appeal to 2 completely different audiences" ever since checking out competitive Pokémon in Gen 6. I don't think I've ever finished that thought with a solution. But regardless, I'd not looked into the history of it, and what it means for each game and the franchise. So this was a good dive!
Love the video! I'd love a vid on scarcity in Pokemon, and its phasing out: from single use TMs to infinites, from 5-10 rare candies a game to EXP candy by the hundreds
The evolution of TMs is a fascinating topic on itself. The fact Water Gun was a TM says so much on how they were originally conceive and how they evolved.
I think just making easy customization of pokemon available in the post game is the ideal, casual players rarely do much with the game beyond that, and the players that do will probably have enough interest in the series to keep themselves motivated and learn about the competitive scene. At first I thought this video was going to be about movepools, abilities, BST (+distribution) and all those features that make certain pokemon outright useless competitively, which I think is a bit of a problem, certainly not because it's something to be expected as an RPG or any game with a big roster of playable characters, since it really isn't the standard, but because of the message the franchise keeps trying to convey,.
i think it'd also be interesting to hear you unpack some of the gimmicks from the last few generations--megas, z-moves, etc., especially since Game Freak seems to drop them like a hot potato one a generation-by-generation basis. In either case, excellent video as usual
I think this is why Pokemon Stadium type games still have a place in the franchise today. A game where you focus entirely on battling means you don't have to worry about encroaching on the single player RPG elements. If they do make a new Stadium game now though, I think it would have to come with an instant team-building mode like Showdown has in order for it to be worth playing at all in this day and age. There's still one big problem though, IVs and EVs still haven't ever been officially explained yet, have they? I don't have a Switch so I haven't played the most recent Pokemon games, but they still don't show the exact numbers behind IVs and EVs anywhere do they? Like I know you can check IVs, but they give Pokemon ratings like worst/bad/good/great/best for each IV rather than give you a number, right? They never say anywhere "IVs can range from 0 to 31" or "Your Caterpie has a speed IV of 14". Same with EVs, it shows you a progress bar that can give you a general idea of how far along you are for a stat but it doesn't give you the exact number, and it doesn't tell you that 252 specifically is the max. Even in Pokemon Go, they have a compromise where it is pretty easy to tell where exactly an IV is on the line between 0 and 15, but it still won't go as far as saving you the effort of eyeballing it by just telling you the number outright. I imagine this is an order to Niantic from higher-ups at The Pokemon Company. This is the last RPG wall they don't want to cross, not even for the hardcore competitive base. Acknowledging the existence of IVs and EVs is ok because they can explain them as "individual potential" and "training", but once you give hard numbers to them, it is an admission that Pokemon are computer programs, not creatures. Especially considering if someone asks "why 31 and 252 instead of some multiple of ten like you would expect?" the answer is "so it takes up less data on the cartridge". If they ever want to make a game with a proper team-builder, they would need to show the exact numbers and make them easily edit-able like they are on Showdown, but that's just farther than Game Freak is willing to go right now.
it actually did get explained by the Pokémon company for competitive Pokémon sword and shield games during Gen 8 VGC. Pokémon gen 8 now makes it easier to get the perfect Pokémon you want now with mints and bottle caps. Mints change natures and bottle caps max IVs and EVs values. now with some bp now all the Pokémon you get can now be competitive. gen 8 now has hidden ability capsules so now competitive Pokémon is better than ever.
I think I'm biased in saying this because a) like you, I'm a millenial woman who grew up alongside Pokemon and UA-cam, and b) I've been watching you since your rom hack days. But I hope my comment still counts: I think your Pokemon commentary is one of, if not the most interesting, compelling and comprehensive out there. I know your channel is about more than Pokemon, but again, I can't help but love your Pokemon content. Watching your videos makes me remember why I loved these games for so many years, which can be pretty difficult nowadays. Thank you as always Tama, all the best 💖
I can remember the fierce debates about hacked Pokemon because RNG was just too difficult to work out for '6iv or bust' mons. I kind of naively assumed RNG in Pokemon is like Golden Sun which is extremely rudimentary and means you can get super rare drops almost guaranteed. Great video as always. Seeing the unscripted adlib near the end was a nice touch :3
My biggest issue with balancing is still that the balancing between Pokémon species is still really bad, the classic example is the 2015 Worlds where virtually every top player used a minor variation on the exact same team (known as CHALK - Cresselia, Heatran, Amoongus, Landorus-T, Mega Kangaskan) - in a game with near infinite team makeups, having the majority of serious competitors have only a one Pokémon difference between them is a sign of severe balance issues. While that particular team has come and gone a few times depending on rules and such, it is common that competition focusses on a very small number of Pokémon. It's hard to come up with a definitive solution to this, but I think they could start by more carefully considering VGC rules and considering changes to the specific of what moves and abilities do between generations.
I remember back when I was a kid and the target demographic for Pokémon, there was a tournament at my local mall, Dadeland Mall in Miami, FL. I entered with my copy of blue and was pitted against an older kid. First thing that comes out of him is a Mew with a health bar so large that it stretched across the screen and wrapped into the following row of tiles on the screen. Me being the idiot kid that I was didn’t think to complain about it. No, I went ahead and tried to battle it out. Predictably, I lost. I didn’t really have fun and was, instead, left with a feeling of confusion and embarrassment. At least my mom bought me red version as a consolation price (my mom is great). I originally got blue version because everyone I knew had red but red is my favorite color. Anyway, that’s my anecdote on the early Pokémon competitive scene.
This is such a concise and easy to understand explanation of what happened when real world competitions merged with the series. I honestly wonder if the way to satisfy the different kinds of Pokémon fans would be to have several series run concurrently. Hopefully Legends Arceus is a sign that they’re considering dividing series between single player role playing and multiplayer competitive. PS I’ve followed you since Pokémon green and Lavender Town creepy pasta and for my money you’re still the Pokémon content creator GOAT. Keep up the great work!
It would be interesting to see them do more things like PLA where they just go focus on something different. Maybe like a dragon Quest joker professional compared to the regular version.
God, I love DQMJ so much. It's so freeing to be able to put effort into your monsters and even get your weaker, favorite ones up to snuff with items to combine them with stronger monsters. Synthesis in that game as a mechanic makes it so any monster can get as good as the late-game bullshit monsters that are hard to come by (even though in the end, those are used due to having way too much stockpiled traits that make them better than anything else).
In my experience EV/IV training made battling random people in the GBA/DS era more balanced. Most people who did implement EV/IV training adhered to the tier list or mons legal in the Battle Frontier, while those who didn’t generally had a team full of Ubers, making battles fairly interesting either way
From the sounds of things, it's a miracle we ever got games as enjoyable as Gen V (I liked B/W for what they were, but I know most people only enjoyed B2/W2). Yeah, I guess this video really puts it into perspective on why the games are the way they are today, and that is that they're more accessible. With this in mind, I wonder how they're gonna handle Gen V remakes? Or will they do something unexpected and make B3/W3? 🤔
A Tama Byte deep dive idea that I would like to see is one on what they were trying to do when introducing doubles battles. Like how and why it became the official format, how it changed (very different in gen 3), and maybe why triple battle didn’t stick.
Another video?! And it isn’t spaced out a year apart from the last one?! Yes!!! Keep them coming! I don’t even like Pokémon I just like watching your vids!
I think to go along with the end of the video, the bottle cap and mint systems actually do as best they can at keeping the every Pokémon is unique thing. Bottle caps and mints don’t actually change the pokemon’s fundamental attributes, they just give it the positive characteristics. It’s not a perfect solution but I think it’s a really clean way of doing it. Great video all around.
I love that this channel is going through a renaissance. The stuff you've made this year has been really interesting, and this video is no different. It's especially rewarding to watch for me having been subbed for roughly a decade and getting to see the content grow and improve.
turning stats into something that feels like characterization is incredibly challenging and a bevy of single player only rpgs have the problem of all the characters feeling the same and that's with 5-10 characters. the challenges of doing that with hundreds of characters who don't have spoken dialog to backup that characterization is beyond challenging.
Another great video. Your last long essay blew away all other colosseum videos but when it ended I was worried it would take forever for more content yet here you are with the best explanations on competitive pokemon I’ve ever seen. For personal enjoyment I prefer long videos but this is the perfect length for this topic because I have friends with shorter attention spans that can get through this whole thing and finally understand my point about competitive play. I love this format and I hope you keep it up. Your wisdom on pokemon is needed within the fan base.
I remember replaying pokemon emerald on a phone emulator a long time ago. I remember getting to the battle frontier and being like, well, time to cheat. Because the pokemon that the AI used actually had good ivs and evs, and i just remember wondering who in the world would breed legit pokemon in the conditions of the time. I guess dedicated japanese players?
Oh, this is really good look at a topic that I think doesn't get enough conversation around it. Pokemon really is a lot games packed into one, and as a person who enjoys both the RPG adventure and competitive sides immensely, I wouldn't want either side to be diminished. The Mints and Bottle Caps are actually one of my favorite things they've added in the series. From a mechanical perspective, not only do they make competitive play more approachable, but they also give you the opportunity to do something that was very rare in older games: using the Pokemon you played the story with successfully in high-level play! The Bottle Caps and Hyper Training, to me at least, carry this positive message that with perseverance and effort, you can overcome what you've been told your limits are and be anything you want
The way that there are "right" and "wrong" versions of each Pokemon has really started to bug me lately. It's such a feels-bad moment when you finally find a Pokemon you really want, only to realize that its nature is detrimental to what you want it to do. Do you keep searching for another one? Do you just use the one you got even though you know it could be better? I don't really bother with IVs and EVs during the storyline, but natures are what get to me because they're right there and visibly have an impact. Abilities too, for that matter. Does it have a good nature and bad ability? What then? I love the versatility of all this for post-game/multiplayer, raising the perfect Pokemon can be fun, but I feel like it's a case of too many variables for the standard story mode. Not that I play multiplayer anyway, like any competitive game it doesn't interest me that much. The Stadium style games were the perfect middle-ground for me, because they were focused on higher-difficulty battling but still seemed almost like puzzles that could be solved in a variety of ways. Sure, I could use only the strongest Pokemon in the game and plow through everything, or I could use whatever weird team I had built and have a bit more fun with the challenge that way.
I think that they never intended for EV/DV and IV to be discovered. It was just a mechanic to make pokemon unique and make sure pokemon of the same species can have different stats. They wanted to have people pick their pokemon based on what they liked, the stats that they could see, and the moves they could give them. Then looking into the code of games and the internet happened.
@@dimelo115 no not really only that the Japanese's players had 3 different competitive versions of the first Pokémon stadiums games for Pokémon red and green versions also blue version. yes Pokémon stadiums earlier Japanese's releases where a massive hit for Japanese's players they loved the competitive Pokémon scene. I mean the Japanese's guy's who made game freak were gamers them selves they even admitted it.
no not really only that the Japanese's players had 3 different competitive versions of the first Pokémon stadiums games for Pokémon red and green versions also blue version. yes Pokémon stadiums earlier Japanese's releases where a massive hit for Japanese's players they loved the competitive Pokémon scene. I mean the Japanese's guy's who made game freak were gamers them selves they even admitted it.
@@dimelo115 But the only way to really use them efficiently was to burrow in the inner workings of the game. And breeding has more uses than just getting better pokemon.
To me and all of my friends Pokemon died after Gen V's Black 2/White 2. It really says something about their business priority when I can have more fun with BATTLE FRONTIER than all of the games from Gen VI onwards combined. Removing Battle Frontier (or something equivalent) was the biggest mistake they could ever do and to this day I don't support Pokemon nor Nintendo with my money because of it and let's just say I know I'm far from being the only one here.
The sad part is, all items on Smash Bros is probably more balanced than LoL. Modern day LoL is so overloaded with damage because the devs repeated nerf all forms of durability including armor/mr/hp on items/from "runes" as well as shields, life steal and other heals and other forms of flat/percent reduction all while never touching the biggest source of damage in LoL. Champion base damages. Brand has always done 250ish base damage per ability at rank 5, but it hurts a lot less when you're rushing an athenes unholy grail in season 3, with 12+ MR on runes/masteries, and 216 scaling hp. Where as nowadays you take that big damage with your measly 8 MR from masteries on top of whatever BS keystone he decided to run, while you both rush an item like Liandries which adds no bulk. All that damage makes for an even more inbalanced game than Pokemon which is already very damage favored. Smash on the other hand, might be a little less balanced due to RNG but it's still equal opportunity, and some of the items actually help to lessen the gap between top tier picks and low tier picks.
I think focusing on doubles as the official competitive format was kind of a way to sooth this tension. They can focus on making doubles dynamic and strategic and singles gets to just be that chaotic coin flip stuff you were talking about. After all, Double Team isn't banned in VGC, and there's no sleep clause, but the format isn't plagued by that stuff bc a 2v2 inherently gives both players more agency to play around it etc. To make singles competitive, Smogon literally had to invent its own ruleset bc otherwise that format would just be casual cheese like you say - a game where the best player doesn't always win bc that high-variance play is rewarded more there. Not sure how this plays into the single-player experience, since that's also 90-99% single battles, but it's something else to think about...
Y'know an aspect about Pokémon discourse I hate is when people judge the games based on the competitive metas of each generation. Like, they'll say "I hate gen __ because this one pokemon was op and everyone used it" or whatever. You're no longer judging the games, you're judging competitions from outside the games. But then they'll say "but online battling is a feature in each game". It's still dumb to judge a game/whole generation on a feature, though. I don't hear anyone complaining about how the beauty contests ruined gen 4
As someone who got into competitive in Gen 5 I really felt this. I spent hours breeding Pokemon just for the right Nature and Ability and seeing what their characteristic was so they likely had at least 1 perfect IV. Once Gen 6 hit and both EV training and breeding for IVs got easier (Destiny now allowed Pokemon to pass down IVs) I spent a lot more time playing competitively. Of course even with this change I would have not spent as much time battling if it weren't for randomly getting a definitely hacked 6 IV Ditto to make breeding easier. Besides being an adult with responsibilities the main reason I stopped focusing on competitive was because my game got stolen late in Gen 6 so that killed my drive. I entered a few tournaments in Gens 7 and 8 and had fun since its only gotten easier to quickly build a team.
Yea, imagine make an extra effort to make actual money in a game, Crazy right?; let's tell sports and esports player to stop sweating too hard and go drugs instead XD. Nice vid btw.
But *clearly* nuzlockes/competitive/shiny hunting are the only ways to play the game if you’ve played a Pokémon game before and there are no other legitimate or intended playstyles.
The question is: have IVs ever actually made Pokémon feel like unique creatures? Has anyone noticed the stats changes in terms of how they look at the Pokémon? I’d argue, no, none of this. IVs are ultimately useless from both perspectives. To make individual mons feel more special and different from one another in general, they could just do visual variations (such as the size differences we finally got in Legends) or even behavioral changes based on natures when you use features like picnics where you actually get to see your Pokémon just existing. A Lazy nature would make your mon sleep a lot more, a Timid nature would make it stay farther away from other mons and even the trainer (maybe only until its friendship level got raised!). There’s a lot they could do. And for the luck and randomness factor in battles, they can leave it up to moves and abilities. EVs are much better because they’re more about training and using different builds rather than just being gimped from the beginning etc. I wouldn’t make it so their best use is always maxing out 2 stats and ignoring the others, but they’re currently innocuous enough already.
Visual differences should definitely be a thing, but gameplay ones need to be as well. However you are right that you can't actually feel the difference of IVs. I think they should just give pokemon a list of unique moves, like how egg moves are. Just make the conditions in which you obtain them different. There will still be the optimal meta movesets, but for in-game it would make the pokemon a little more unique.
I feel like they should return to the DV system somehow. Let me explain: Modern games are set up in a way that you'll receive something for all your efforts, you'll eventually find a shiny if you keep battling, look hard enough and you'll find competitive items scattered across the world without having to grind BP for them, battle enough trainers and you'll have money for stuff like Vitamins, grind enough raids for even better items which can be the Mints, Bottle Caps and Ability changing items, essentially the way for any regular Pokémon to become competively viable if you get attached to them. But the EV system still runs against that, you have to make lots of planning ahead for lots of battles and make hefty investments into Vitamins in order to minimize that grind, and get rare berries for corrections. I find the old system better because you could just grind, your stats are improved because you level up, but also because your DVs increase significantly, essentially any Pokémon can be the best version if itself even if the IVs still provided a little variance to that. I feel like Gen 3 should have introduced either Natures or the new EV system (with a way to reset a Pokémon btw), but both of them at once add a significant early grind that doesn't provide much benefit or room for error.
Personally, I really like that any pokemon as of SwSh can be made competitively viable. A lot of people get attached to specific pokemon (like their starter or a shiny) and getting to use that specific pokemon over one that naturally has a better nature/ability/I.Vs is one of the best things added to gen 8.
It's a hard truth about most JRPG (and WRPGs in a lot of instances, D&D 3.5e being a notable example) systems that fully optimizing one's play almost invariably makes the game worse. When we were kids and didn't take time to excessively grind, didn't spend hours and weeks finding item and team building synergies, and the games were still challenging to some degree, they were a lot more fun than now where we have 'perfect' information about every available build, and the meta for the game more or less eventually becomes completely solved. This is why Nuzlockes 'fix' so much about Pokemon. The strategic situation of the game becomes much more interesting when your optimization options are arbitrarily limited and you potentially have to make the best of a bad situation, rather than always having every tool at your disposal to fully utilize. Optimizing is meaningful when the game is still challenging enough to accommodate it. Which brings us to multiplayer, where in addition to EVs being bad JRPG design (grind = objectively more power rather than interesting, unique sidegrades) there are a myriad of crazy items (Leftovers comes to mind as a prime example) which are required knowledge to even have a chance at winning. So when you bring up RNG being more fun for inexperienced players because less experienced players can win through utilizing such tactics, I absolutely agree. I think in a way, this is better design because ultimately the use of tactics should prevail over choosing the correct build in any battle system. Sadly, I think outside of a few gimmicks, modern Pokemon multiplayer is mostly a deterministic system, prone to being 'solved' like most other games with RPG leveling mechanics, and will likely remain so. RPG mechanics are intrinsically meant to provide power differences by design through the use of statistical representations of strength, and Pokemon falls in line here with a myriad of other games where optimizing always means either picking the best numbers or stopping somebody else from picking the best numbers. Not that Pokemon isn't fun, of course. But the system has limitations bound to its engine that would need an extreme overhaul to balance thaf would leave most players frustrated, outraged, or most likely, quite bored.
I think they made a mistake with natures in gen 3. Pokemon had individuality with egg moves and dvs. Natures straight up made Pokemon worse as opposed to sub optimal if you get the wrong one and make the coin flip to get ivs even worse. In a playthrough of the game casually you WILL notice that your modest Machamp just frankly sucks.
The original Pokémon silver,Gold and crystal versions all just required you to fight wild Pokémon to max DV''s exp Gains it was very easy to max any Pokémon. while I was playing those old school versions trainer Pokémon do not give you DV exp Values only wild Pokémon do that was changed in Pokémon gen 3 though.
I believe there are simple solutions that coiuld have been implemented even in the older games, let's say like unlocking a dark flute that will make pokemon you hatch or encounter have perfect ivs. They could have dropped the IV mechanic completely while still keeping natures, obviously hidden power mechanics would have to get sacrifice or change altogether but the point is that there are options.
you do realize we have items now that basically do that now thanks Pokémon gen 8 sword and shield they are called mints for changing Natures and bottle caps for maxing IVs and EVs on a Pokémon no need to breed any more. Gen 8 also has Hidden ability capsules that make it so any Pokémon you catch no longer has to breed just use those items.
@@1BadAssArchAngelvs14 I already know all that (even though my last pokemon game was sun and moon) Her video was discussing making competitive pokemon in older gens not just new.
Nice lil vid. My fav thing is the stats judge in gen 3 being a jerk and only telling you one stat, and if you've got more than 1 as the same stat, doing a random one of the two.
There's even more bullshit than that. Sometimes you would specifically want bad IVs in certain stats, like Physical Attack and Speed, or even Defenses to maximize Counter and Mirror Coat. Since Hidden Power (arguably the worst move ever, as it only encouraged hacking) has been removed, they should just automatically set all IVs to 31 for multiplayer and the Battle Tower or whatever it's called now. If nobody has a material advantage, nobody can complain about hacking. There are still plenty of gimmicky ways to break the game, for which IVs and EVs don't even matter. One of my trolling teams back in X/Y had around 80% win-rate on Battle Spot, and it only required one turn of setup to put Sturdy onto Shedinja in Doubles, by using Klutz in a mostly unintended way. Sadly, the extreme power-creep in the later games seemed to specifically punish gimmicks and creative strategies in general.
Between the announcement of Legends:Arceus and the announcement of Scarlet/Violet, I expected TPC to have 2 parallel series of games: one that's open world and focused on the singleplayer, the other that gets more and more like Showdown with each new entry. Now that Scarlet/Violet are the direct successors to Sword/Shield, that theory's out the window.
I mean... there are some aspects they could work on for balance that wouldn't pull the game too far in any direction. Take the type chart for example. EVERY person playing benefits more from having the types be balanced, and the type chart has never been close. Every time they introduce a new type they create new problems as if they can't envision the consequences of adding something like steel with that many resistances. When they added fairy (which is a magical made up thing where you get some leeway in determining weaknesses unlike elements like fire and water) the last thing they needed was to make bug weaker offensively by adding another resistance. They also couldn't think maybe something like Ice could use even a single useful resistance? Poison was a great choice to make more useful offensively, but then you go and choose Steel as the other? You made the most useful defensive type better offensively? Why?! Making Steel type offensive moves more common is NOT good for Rock and Ice types. Did you even think this through?
It's a pretty easy fix. Do what any competent PvE RPG does with their PvP: Put players on an even playing field by allowing them to allot their pokemon stats as they see fit. Essencially making the PvP of the game Pokemon Showdown. All you need to use a pokemon is the pokemon itself. You go into the mode and are allowed to set IVs, EVs and moves for that mode only. Whenever you are in the PvE portion of the game your pokemon has their random IVs and whatever EVs you got on it as usual. So you still need to get at least 1 copy of the pokemon you want to use, but you don't have to waste hours of life for no reason.
Something kinda niche that has always interested me in Pokémon is the farming sim aspect, so-to-speak, with growing berries and cooking them into pokéblocks and whatnot; maybe a potential deep-dive idea? 🤷♀️
I have a couple ideas on how to make it even more unbalanced just to see what happens * Aegislash now has its stat reduction in Gen 8 undone * Both forms of Raichu gets 45 points added to its Defense * Alolan Raichu has Levitate as a hidden ability * Both Raichu forms can use the Light Ball * Azurmarill has a BST of 500 as 10 points have been added to its attack while 35 points get added to Defense and Special Defense and it still has Huge power * Truant lets Slaking use Snore and other sleep required moves along with healing 1/12th of its HP while loafing around * Gyarados either gets Dragon Ascent or is retyped to Water/Dark * Metagross gets Tough Claws as a hidden ability instead of Light Metal * Rough Skin is now available as a regular ability for Garchomp with Speed Boost becoming the new Hidden Ability * Gengar retains Levitate as a hidden ability while Gastly and Haunter get Cursed body as their hidden ability * Flygon gets Sand Stream as a hidden ability * Normalize now deactivate before a move is used on a Pokemon normally weak to it along with Ghost, Rock, and Steel type Pokemon * Hydreigon no longer has Levitate as its only Ability. Now there’s a chance of your Hydreigon getting Mega Launcher when you evolve your Zweilious * Slow Start reduces Attack and Speed by 10% * Regigigas now has 120 speed giving it a BST of 690 I want to spread chaos you see
Long comment alert!! You've inspired me to write it, however, so I'll blame you :P You reminded me of a quote: "Given the chance, players will optimise the fun out of a game." This quote feels right, but has an ambiguous relationship with Pokémon. Grinding days or weeks for a single "perfect" team member can be mind-numbing, more so when you multiply that time by six. Granted, because of how heavily dependent the process is on RNG, it could take you far less or far longer to finish. On the other hand, there's never really a moment where battling isn't fun in Pokémon (barring stall players). Every time I see someone like Wolfe or PokeAim battle online, they're having a great time and joking around, even when they're on the ropes. They laugh off dumb luck like freezes, crits, and misses, even though it costs them the game, and still put on a phenomenal show. Considering they're both top-level players in their own rights, knowing that they still enjoy this game even at high-tier play is fantastic! Too often, I'll see a game where the top players have optimised to an absurd degree, sometimes running into players with the exact gear they have and running the most boring meta strategies to edge out a win. Pokémon's RNG helps out immensely with its constant playability and hampers burnout _so_ much. Even if you make sure you're max HP/max SpDef Calm Heatran, a Specs Greninja Hydro Pump still has a _chance_ to 2HKO you from full. Magma Storm still has 75% accuracy, and Protect still has a chance to fail if you spam it for more chip damage. Even in the height of competitive play, you're at the mercy of damage rolls, paralysis or confusion chances, and basic accuracy checks. Compare that to, for instance, Smash Bros. Competitive matches are generally played on flat, stable arenas with little to no changes, items are turned off, and the players generally use their best characters or counter-pick. It's just the players duking it out, and top-level gameplay can be a genuine art-form. Alas, that's just not how Nintendo wants it to be. They want CHAOS, so they put in items. They want VARIETY, so they put in a huge roster of characters. They want EVERYONE to have fun, so they allow up to _eight_ players. Pokémon might well be better off the way the developers intended, but they accept that there _is_ a "right" way to compete, and they've made it easier than ever to do so with every generation. Meanwhile, Smash without RNG is reaching unfun levels, according to Nintendo, so they actively attempt to shut the scene down or ignore it as much as possible. TL;DR: For all the flak competitive Pokémon gets on the players' side, they DO get support on the developers' side. It's a game you _can't_ really optimise the fun out of, but you _can_ make the path to that fun tedious as can be. The same can't be said for a game you can optimise the fun out of, but you'll never really be on the developers' good side. Also, I'm noticing on rewatch (have the video on loop while I'm typing this), but the exposure on your camera is wonky! Your poor nose wants to go into the light, but keeps returning for visitation half the time, bahahaha! Other than that, the aesthetic is great
The reasoning behind making IVs, EVs, and natures affect stats and thereby make each Pokemon feel unique has always felt weird to me because as a kid, I wasn't catching multiple of a Pokemon and comparing their stats, and I also wasn't ever at the exact same level as any of my friends on the odd occasion that we were raising the same Pokemon for our in-game teams. NPCs just told me every Pokemon was unique, and I took it on faith. And anyway, my Pokemon WAS unique from my friends' even disregarding stats. I had invested 3 PP Ups into Magnitude on my Golem and while my friend's Golem had Earthquake. Mine held leftovers while my friend's held Quick Claw. It seems like the only time you'd ever see that two Pokemon are "just numbers" as a kid is if you battled your friend in a mode where you normalized levels and both checked the stats of a Pokemon you both had. Maybe I just didn't ever do casual battles as much as other people, but that seems like a niche scenario.
I really think they should just get rid of IV's. Natures and EV's are more than enough to create variety among Pokemon species and allow strategy and customization for competitive multiplayer. IV's on the other hand add nothing to the game, or add so little they aren't worth it. You almost always want your IV's to be fully maxed out (or minimizied in some edge cases). They don't add depth to the game, they just add a barrier to entry in the form of hours of grinding. If all Pokemon just had 31 across the board by default (in other words, if IV's just didn't exist) then any Pokemon could become competitively viable relatively quickly.
I'm all for the direction they've been heading with a standard story and casual mode - but with extensive post game min/maxing. It's a nice balance. I just wish they gave single-player some more competitive love. I want an absolutely brutal single player post-game with teams and AI designed by world champs. THAT'S what I yearn for. Give the antisocial people something to strive for too.
A solution to the problem.... it would not stop hacking but what if it was like fire emblem? Stats are increased by chance not guarantees. I.e 30% chance for a speed raise a level up. With different percentages in each stat depending on the pokemon. Then it's a matter of statistics and not effort. Perfect versions of pokemon are statistically impossible.
7:30 *Puts on glasses and nerdy accent* Hmm ackually in ruby and sapphire there is an NPC talking about how his hasty pokemon is faster and there is also the Effort Ribbon lady in Slateport that grants it once you max out your EV's. Loved this video.
This was a very insightful, interesting and low-key depressing video about the balance of Pokemon. Insightful in the description of all three areas pokemon cover (plus the unfortunate but very understandable fourth one). The fascinating comes from realize how people, both in good and bad ways finds ways to basically "perfect" something and that makes it more skill based, but also less "fun" (not entirely, but basically the entry fee get higher each day) kinda like smash bros when you think about it. And the depressing part (to me) comes mainly from the eternal argument between the triple tug o war you described xD All in all a great video, excited for more... A request I guess would be the gimmicks pokemon has used and maybe see how they fit the triple tug o war
Really interesting video and I’m love these mini videos and more in-depth reviews. I admit I never focus on IVs because even eight generations in I still don’t understand them. I think someone else already mentioned this, but I’d interested in a Tamabyte on features that don’t return from generation to generation or game to game. I think a lot of fans complain about that. I imagine the reason is, you need new features to sell a new game, but I wonder if there’s more to it. Things ranging from your Pokémon walking behind you to the dream world to contests or that dungeon exploring thing your Pokémon do in the box in Sun and Moon. Maybe some those are so different they might need more than one video. Also, not sure how to frame it, but something on spin-offs. GF couldn’t develop Coliseum as you said, but Pokémon was too big a franchise not to have more video games. What spin-offs do for the franchise, which are good, how they ‘adapt’ the material of the Pokémon world to their format (I imagine Mystery Dungeon does well cause it’s an RPG). Or how Pokémon Go exploded in popularity and what’s that effect on the franchise and main games now that it’s been a few years and Pokémon Go is rarer. But maybe that’s too far off from the main series games.
Forget multi-player, there are very few examples of single-player turn-based RPGs that are well-balanced experiences. So just the fact there's a lively multi-player community around one is kind of impressive. As more of the single-player sort of player, I appreciate the complex under-the-hood mechanics for likely what they were intended to be, mechanics to add uniqueness to our 'mons, but I can appreciate making them easier/practical for the people who are competitive. I just hope they never become "overly-exposed" like a lot of mechanics are in JRPGs anymore. Like where there's so many trackers and things in your face about it that you suddenly start caring about something you *actually* don't care about, but you just want the tracker to not be incomplete... Maybe this is a personal problem though. lol
Great video! I've never been interested in the competitive Pokemon scene, but I have browsed Smogen for ideas on which natures and move sets are suggested for some Pokemon. I play Pokemon for the single-player experience and to bond with my Pokemon teams. I may on rare occasions play with friends, and when I do, I would like my teams to be modestly optimized.
This might be rather small, but I would love to hear your thoughts on the experience point system has changed throughout the gens. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on how this little change has affected the way you play pokemon. I initially thought making it share exp for all pokemon was a bad idea, and even worse by making it permanent. But after playing Legends Arceus, it's interesting to see how streamlining this system can add or mix well with pokemon's new formula!
I mean...a showdown like editor with rental mons for official comp would be nice. Visible IVs and EVs like sun and moon too. Stick all the really OP things in the postgame.
i remember hatching eggs during gen 3 trying to get like 50 at a time and picking the best stat one and thinking to myself.... this really just isnt fun i remember finally learning about ivs/evs during like gen 5 and thinking to myself.... wow. this seems so time consuming to do all those steps. and really just isnt fun i also found it strange that the main competitive scene is doubles 4v4 when the game does like 80 percent singles 6v6 BUT HURRAY FOR CRACKING SHOULDERS!..... and snorlax
During Gen 6, I was trading away IV Eevees I didn't want, and one traded resulted in me getting a perfect IV shiny Dragonite named Beelzeus. Looking back I'm 100% sure it was hacked - why on Earth would anyone wonder trade that? But I was super excited because I could finally breed for Dragons with a suitable parent. Beelzeus ended up having 4 combat optimal daughters (none were male for some reason). The Salamences Alduin and Parthanaax, Garana the Garchomp, and Calmaryn the Dragonite. Garana and Calmaryn were traded over to Pokémon X so could playthrough with them. The Twin Salamences I kept to farm battle points. They were unstoppable 😇 until they encountered a Weavile.
Yo Tama, I just have to say that you were one of the OG Pokemon UA-camrs I started watching years ago. Even through all the years after I started watching you still don't miss. Keep up the good work!
I prefer natures that don’t buff and nerf stats. It makes the Pokémon stats fee more raw to me atleast. I like EVs but going for specific like SpD and SpA is harder early on in the game since there aren’t many Pokémon that give SpD/SpA EVs. Pokémon Showdown negates MAJORITY of the problem of raise competitive Pokémon in game but that’s because you can literally costumize the Pokémon stats moves and natures.
I really love these Tama bytes so far! You have a lot of passion for Pokémon which I totally feel but admittedly even though Pokémon is my favorite thing I'm honestly thinking about not picking gen 9, but we'll see soon enough. I would LOVE to hear you talk about Pokémon "Gimmicks". I tell people it pains me to say it, because I love it and desperately want it to to return, but Mega Evolution IS a gimmick. I find it amazing Mega Evolution was the only cross gen gimmick but we had that, z moves, dyna/gigantamax, and now terastallize. I think the history should be interesting enough, why was it introduced? Why take it away?
I think a conversation about IV’s and what they add would be good. I have thoughts about them, but I am also one person with no idea of the background mindset IV’s. So, I would be working off of a fairly ignorant stance based on my own limited experience.
Honestly, I think the problem with Pokemon multiplayer is just that... RPGs don't really lend themselves well to multiplayer. At least, not when they're as structured as Pokemon is. A big reason tabletop RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons work is because their rules are inherently loose or open to interpretation in some way, but RPG video games can't be made in that way, because... well, they're video games. They have a specific set of programmed rules and functions, and the only way something outside of those specifications can occur is through a glitch. In D&D, if you're fighting something like a giant, ancient dragon, chances are it's going to have a big statistical advantage over you, and to beat it, you'd probably have to do something the game's rules didn't explicitly plan for (Not cheating or breaking the rules, but doing something that wasn't specifically designed around). But in a video game RPG like Pokemon, there is no reliable way to work around that kind of disadvantage, since there isn't enough controllable variance to change the statistical outcome. You'd either have to rely on luck with the game's RNG, or simply get a bigger, stronger stick to hit with. There's too much structure to allow for you to fully outskill and/or outplay your opponent like you could in a game that has less structure, like League of Legends or Overwatch. Now, I could be COMPLETELY wrong about this, I'm not a game designer or a competitive video game player, I have zero qualifications. That's just what I think, and if you can prove me wrong, please do so, because I would love to learn something I didn't know!
A lot of people here are mentioning that competitive Pokémon is boring since only around 15 or so Pokémon get used mostly. That’s not really true, and perpetuating that sort of view doesn’t give an amazing look to competitive players. In singles, the major way of competitive play has always been separated into usage tiers specifically to allow for more Pokémon to be used. These tiers have anywhere from 20-40 Pokémon usually, sometimes even more. There’s always meta Pokémon who will get used more, but across *all* of competitive, there’s a lot of important Pokémon to keep in mind, definitely not 15 or so. And, even if Pokémon aren’t in a certain tier, Pokémon like Reuniclus or Rotom-Wash still can get high usage in tiers above where they are, so tiers in singles aren’t set and stone. I have less experience in VGC, but it does try to have variety with series’ which limits which Pokémon could be used. Obviously Pokémon like Landorus, Incineroar, and Kartana get used very often, but there’s still a bunch of interesting one-off choices that happen occasionally. VGC may honestly be less diverse than singles just because it’s essentially one big tier and Pokémon have such a drastic power difference from eachother when all of them are put together. It’s true that several Pokémon are very common in competitive Pokémon, and some Pokémon are so potent that not using them is considered having a bad team (mainly GSC OU’s Snorlax,) but overall, a large amount of Pokémon are important to competitive. That, plus different moves, items, abilities, items, EVs/IVs, and natures mean even one Pokémon can be drastically different depending on the team. Competitive encourages a lot more creativity than people gives it credit for
I love how you described Gen 1 mechanics and why it was that way. People nowadays see gen I *exclusively* from the "competitive" standpoint and are like "this is trash, it's so unbalanced!", b!tch, it wasn't supposed to be to start with.
Playing SwSh made the divide between the single-player and the competitive Pokémon experiences much more obvious. I started wondering if GameFreak could possibly bridge the gap between the two by using the single-player mode to teach players about the mechanics necessary for competitive battling. Otherwise, the team you beat the Champion with is woefully unprepared for online battles. SwSh makes it easier than ever to develop competitive teams, but most of that is largely unexplained, even in the post-game. There’s not a single NPC who tells you the caps for EVs-how would someone know that the cap is 252 in one stat to a total 510 across all stats if you don’t look up online guides? Maybe GF is depending on the community to do that for them, though.
They should remove IVs from the game. They're the hardest to perfect, and offer no drawbacks. Whereas nature and EVs are a system that support different builds, and there isn't a 100% perfect build. And much more manageable than IVs. (I do have nostalgia for building 5 max IV teams in gen 6, but that's in the past)
I love how much content you're posting lately. If it's easier to do these kinds of videos versus working on a single hour long video all year I suggest doing these. Hope you make a video on Legends Arceus!
If this Byte left you hungry for more, please, enjoy the entrée and feast yourself on this playlist of all my in-depth Pokemon reviews! ua-cam.com/play/PLz5XeL444xPATlw8IQd082Xy2ow7bzGiD.html
Also check out blisy's video about building VGC teams: ua-cam.com/video/_p-PAnQ4lAc/v-deo.html
i often find it difficult to find time for your longer videos, appreciate these shorter. but please no tiktok tier trash
I finally made a playlist
Love the old school computer intro.
From an RPG standpoint, I love EVs: it's so cool that the stats of your pokemon reflect where they were trained. Unfortunately, making something difficult or tedious in an attempt to deter players is a recipe for disaster -- it ensures that the players who "want it the most" will ruin their experience of the game, and that those who play the game for enjoyment have no competitive footing to stand on. This was such a cool deep dive. Great video!
Agreed. Its why I had more fun breeding for the egg moves. It was just a lot more enjoyable
I have recently watched some reviews of board games that talk about the idea that "players will optimise the fun out of their experience", and I think that's such a great observation. It's a hard balance to get right, but while making something tedious might put MOST players off, it means the people who are actually most invested in your game end up having the least enjoyable experience
The real problem with EVs is that you have no control over where they get invested or even that it exists or where they are limited.
Everytime this specific discussion is brought up, I tell people that GF has an easy way out by making EVs skill points that you can stockpile and use whenever you want and it would work in the same way that it always has (skill points used can't be taken out and invested somewhere else and you have a cap to how many you can get) or just fucking let the player invest their EVs on their Pokemon as they want so they can change it up to *experiment* with their Pokemon. This makes it accessible to everyone to have good Pokemon legally and also experiment with making their Pokemon offensive, defensive or give specific EVs in specific stats so they can pull interesting stuff in battle AND also gives that control entirely to the player.
The problem is that Pokemon is way too comfortable with it's core gameplay which will probably never change that this will never happen unless Pokemon is owned by a different company or another company is let to experiment with a side or main game by TPC. But skill points has been a staple of RPGs and I'm ashamed Pokemon hasn't treated EVs like so a long time ago.
The interesting thing here is that EV in Gen 1 and 2 was somehow better (not necessarily for competitive).
It's extremely simple. You beat monsters, you get Stat experience (it was already call EVs back then, but I feel stat experience represent what's going on pretty well) equal to their strength, with stronger monsters giving naturally more EV.
It adds another level of balance, since stronger monsters obtained later will have naturally less EV than the one you've used the whole game. By traveling and fighting together, your Rattata could really become 100% and be stronger than your friend's Tauros they just caught. A great, if rudimentary, representation of the relationship you've built up together.
Just stuffing your Pokemon with Rare Candies instead of training them the normal way was always going to grant you inferior Pokemon.
Obviously it's very grindy, and don't offer as much variation as the current system (Every Pokemon was super bulky and fast while hitting like trucks), but for a single games, and for casual battles with friends, it was honestly brilliant.
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 Wasn't that like, the worst system?
I mean, don't get me wrong, it's the classic "strong Pokemon get stronger and weak Pokemon don't matter", but I dunno how non-capped EVs is better than capped EVs.
That's the system that made Snorlax unkillable.
Just gotta say, I think these shorter Tama Bytes videos have been a great idea. Not only is it great to see more regular uploads from you (seriously, I was NOT expecting to see a new video so soon after the Colosseum one), but I also think you're analytical style w/ regards to discussing the pokémon games is perfect for zeroing in on specific mechanics like this and not just entire games. Your videos always leave me with something new to think about when it comes to how I play pokémon.
As a competitive player, the idea of an official version of pokemon showdown with actual graphics and regular balance patches sounds like a dream come true and it could theoretically solve this problem entirely. I cannot even fathom a reason why they haven't done that yet, honestly.
mm because they want to promote the main game? xd
I think that a modern day Pokémon Stadium game with stuff straight out of Battle Revolution and a ton of emphasis on competitive battles could make for an "official PKMN showdown". The Wii game had so many flags to check for Pokémon to be available in specific stadiums and modes. If they made a game like that, but with a hardcore clear focus on competitive battles, tons of rewards for those aiming high and constant updates?
That would change how people play Pokémon.
Because Game Freak also likely want the player to dedicate some time into creating a team. It keeps the player actually playing the game.
Probably because it's not catering to a large enough audience to make sense allotting time and resources to.
Showdown is a great enough alternative for those looking for competitive Pokemon and GF even acknowledges that project.
I think it comes down to monetization.
Nintendo isn't going to offer a platform like that unless it'll pay off big time for them.
Would you be willing to pay a small amount per battle or a monthly/annual subscription for access to Nintendo's version of that while Showdown still exists? Would enough competitive players be willing to do so that the money-hungry executives would be willing to greenlight the project?
Really enjoyed how much you've been uploading lately. Been a fan of yours for many many years, it's good to see you back at it more regularly
I would like to see movepools be discussed next. I love how they evolved
The part when we get to gen 4 will be interesting if you know what I mean
I think you should do a video on contests and the frontier itself, and why it died out. Like gen 5 didn't have contests or a battle frontier, and now stuff is pushed to the side, if they have it at all.
And I mean like including Amie, Refresh and all the "Side" stuff that isn't required to finish the game. It includes berry farming too!
I miss the contests.
Really glad you mentioned the Gen 1 balance. I find it incredibly impressive just how good a grasp the development team seemed to have on what was good in generation 1, the only real misjudgements they seemed to make on that front was overestimating the Fire type. It's not even just types, mechanics like the old crit boosted moves, wrap clones, and speed based crits were things they seemed to very seriously consider for balance - see pokemon like Persian, Dugtrio, Arbok, Sandslash, Kingler, Victreebel, Electrode, and more: many of them would go on to be very underwhelming or end up heavily relying on some other newly introduced element like a strong ability to be worth using, but they were all at least in the better half of the pack in generation 1. They're all notably awful in Gen 2, which has almost had me thinking about just how late into development all these iconic Gen 1 lost mechanics were removed.
The optimization element is also one I think started a lot sooner than in Gen 3. Gen 2 competitive is pretty notorious for revolving around Snorlax; even when all legendaries are allowed it is still considered the best individual pokemon in the game. There are three things Snorlax loves more than anything; Curse, Rest + Sleep Talk, and Leftovers. Curse, Rest, and Sleep Talk are available via single use TMs, and Leftovers are an item you can only get from catching wild Snorlax, of which there is only one. These are things that every single player was expected to have *one* of. They all have very wide applicability, so you can use them in a wide variety of ways, but the intention was pretty clearly for players to only be equipped with a single one of each.
To be fair, Generation 1 also had several powerful TMs you could only obtain one of, but there was a decent amount of overlap; you could get multiple similar moves in many cases (Thunder and Thunderbolt), or many pokemon could just naturally learn the moves via leveling up.
Curse, Rest, and Sleep Talk did not fit this. Assuming you didn't trade for additional TMs, only a fairly small pool of Pokemon you could learn Rest, you could only get 1 other Pokemon with access to (non-Ghost) type Curse in Slowpoke, and no pokemon learn Sleep Talk without the TM.
So when the optimized competitive form of Generation 2 came to consistently include games where many teams have multiple users of Curse, most teams have multiple users of Rest + Sleep Talk, and every single team gives every single pokemon a copy of Leftovers? That's when the gap between players with and without resources really started to become uncrossable. 6 copies of Leftovers, which are only available in Kanto, would've been a big time investment. (and none of this is touching on Hidden Power!)
Which is funny considering Snorlax itself was almost certainly specifically designed to work against this! I highly doubt Snorlax being the best when combined with all three of these elements was an accident: it even comes prepacked with Rest to combo with Sleep Talk and Curse. But also, as a super slow opponent, Snorlax is a lot more vulnerable to getting worn down by critical hits or lucky flinches than most. In other words, it was a lot more vulnerable to all those luck based little kid strategies than something like, say, Mewtwo, which was more or less an unstoppable bulldozer once it got going unless you managed to paralyze, sleep, or freeze it.
If we talk about game mechanics I would like to hear your take on the gimmicks the most "recent" generations introduce, I'm talking about Megaevolution, Z-moves, Gigantamax, Terastallize; personally I always hated the fact that they introduce these mechanics just to abandon them entirely the next generation, and in my opinion the megaevolutions were incredibly good to further the evolution aspect of the games adding new designs to pokemon, but others like z-moves just do nothing for me.
Mega evolution also gave new life to abandoned or underperforming Pokémon and made them OU or Uber tier. Once that gimmick was dropped, I was sad
While Mega evolution was a benefit to some like Sabeleye, Ampharos, Altaria, etc., others like Charizard and Mewtwo didn't need two megas. And Rayquaza didn't need it at all because Mega Rayquaza broke the gen 6 meta. It was so busted, Smogon had to make the Anything Goes tier. Power creep is definitely a bigger issue here and I don't think it will change anytime soon
I think the balance they have struck right now is actually pretty good. You don't get the fancy tools to make pokemon perfect until you beat the game. You've already formed the bonds with your pokemon because you had a grand adventure with them by that point. The tools to make them perfect just mean you can actually use the pokemon that got you to the end to battle online unlike before where you needed to invest or hack in all new pokemon to do it. At least in theory because in reality it seems there are 10-15 pokemon everyone uses
Exactly. The game/post-game divide is the key. It's a bit unfortunate that the team you used to beat the game won't likely be the ones you use in competitive because of unintentional EV-training, but with the amount of customization you have access to now, they could be.
If only Zacian and HA Inceniroar were balanced
It's lies it's predictable and lame
One thing BDSP did really weird with since the Elite 4 and Cynthia have competitive leaning pokémon with nearly perfect IVs, Iron Fist Infernape, Minimize+Baton Pass Drifblim, and so on before the average player could even have access to making a team that strong more reliably.
@@rasmusn.e.m1064 Yeah the SwSh DLC really added so many things to make it easier. The lady that will completely wipe all EVs off a mon, bulk-buying nutrients to EV train for way cheaper than in the base game. I really hope stuff like that will be in SV as well
I've had that thought of "oh they really need to appeal to 2 completely different audiences" ever since checking out competitive Pokémon in Gen 6. I don't think I've ever finished that thought with a solution. But regardless, I'd not looked into the history of it, and what it means for each game and the franchise. So this was a good dive!
Love the video!
I'd love a vid on scarcity in Pokemon, and its phasing out: from single use TMs to infinites, from 5-10 rare candies a game to EXP candy by the hundreds
The evolution of TMs is a fascinating topic on itself. The fact Water Gun was a TM says so much on how they were originally conceive and how they evolved.
I think just making easy customization of pokemon available in the post game is the ideal, casual players rarely do much with the game beyond that, and the players that do will probably have enough interest in the series to keep themselves motivated and learn about the competitive scene.
At first I thought this video was going to be about movepools, abilities, BST (+distribution) and all those features that make certain pokemon outright useless competitively, which I think is a bit of a problem, certainly not because it's something to be expected as an RPG or any game with a big roster of playable characters, since it really isn't the standard, but because of the message the franchise keeps trying to convey,.
i think it'd also be interesting to hear you unpack some of the gimmicks from the last few generations--megas, z-moves, etc., especially since Game Freak seems to drop them like a hot potato one a generation-by-generation basis. In either case, excellent video as usual
Idk why I just like hearing your opinion on the franchise it really does feel new. So many people kind of repeat the same stuff over and over.
I think this is why Pokemon Stadium type games still have a place in the franchise today. A game where you focus entirely on battling means you don't have to worry about encroaching on the single player RPG elements. If they do make a new Stadium game now though, I think it would have to come with an instant team-building mode like Showdown has in order for it to be worth playing at all in this day and age.
There's still one big problem though, IVs and EVs still haven't ever been officially explained yet, have they? I don't have a Switch so I haven't played the most recent Pokemon games, but they still don't show the exact numbers behind IVs and EVs anywhere do they? Like I know you can check IVs, but they give Pokemon ratings like worst/bad/good/great/best for each IV rather than give you a number, right? They never say anywhere "IVs can range from 0 to 31" or "Your Caterpie has a speed IV of 14". Same with EVs, it shows you a progress bar that can give you a general idea of how far along you are for a stat but it doesn't give you the exact number, and it doesn't tell you that 252 specifically is the max. Even in Pokemon Go, they have a compromise where it is pretty easy to tell where exactly an IV is on the line between 0 and 15, but it still won't go as far as saving you the effort of eyeballing it by just telling you the number outright. I imagine this is an order to Niantic from higher-ups at The Pokemon Company.
This is the last RPG wall they don't want to cross, not even for the hardcore competitive base. Acknowledging the existence of IVs and EVs is ok because they can explain them as "individual potential" and "training", but once you give hard numbers to them, it is an admission that Pokemon are computer programs, not creatures. Especially considering if someone asks "why 31 and 252 instead of some multiple of ten like you would expect?" the answer is "so it takes up less data on the cartridge".
If they ever want to make a game with a proper team-builder, they would need to show the exact numbers and make them easily edit-able like they are on Showdown, but that's just farther than Game Freak is willing to go right now.
it actually did get explained by the Pokémon company for competitive Pokémon sword and shield games during Gen 8 VGC. Pokémon gen 8 now makes it easier to get the perfect Pokémon you want now with mints and bottle caps. Mints change natures and bottle caps max IVs and EVs values. now with some bp now all the Pokémon you get can now be competitive. gen 8 now has hidden ability capsules so now competitive Pokémon is better than ever.
@@1BadAssArchAngelvs14 Like they explained it and actually used the numbers 31 and 252 specifically somewhere in-game in gen 8?
I think I'm biased in saying this because a) like you, I'm a millenial woman who grew up alongside Pokemon and UA-cam, and b) I've been watching you since your rom hack days. But I hope my comment still counts: I think your Pokemon commentary is one of, if not the most interesting, compelling and comprehensive out there. I know your channel is about more than Pokemon, but again, I can't help but love your Pokemon content. Watching your videos makes me remember why I loved these games for so many years, which can be pretty difficult nowadays. Thank you as always Tama, all the best 💖
I can remember the fierce debates about hacked Pokemon because RNG was just too difficult to work out for '6iv or bust' mons. I kind of naively assumed RNG in Pokemon is like Golden Sun which is extremely rudimentary and means you can get super rare drops almost guaranteed.
Great video as always. Seeing the unscripted adlib near the end was a nice touch :3
My biggest issue with balancing is still that the balancing between Pokémon species is still really bad, the classic example is the 2015 Worlds where virtually every top player used a minor variation on the exact same team (known as CHALK - Cresselia, Heatran, Amoongus, Landorus-T, Mega Kangaskan) - in a game with near infinite team makeups, having the majority of serious competitors have only a one Pokémon difference between them is a sign of severe balance issues. While that particular team has come and gone a few times depending on rules and such, it is common that competition focusses on a very small number of Pokémon. It's hard to come up with a definitive solution to this, but I think they could start by more carefully considering VGC rules and considering changes to the specific of what moves and abilities do between generations.
I remember back when I was a kid and the target demographic for Pokémon, there was a tournament at my local mall, Dadeland Mall in Miami, FL. I entered with my copy of blue and was pitted against an older kid. First thing that comes out of him is a Mew with a health bar so large that it stretched across the screen and wrapped into the following row of tiles on the screen. Me being the idiot kid that I was didn’t think to complain about it. No, I went ahead and tried to battle it out. Predictably, I lost. I didn’t really have fun and was, instead, left with a feeling of confusion and embarrassment. At least my mom bought me red version as a consolation price (my mom is great). I originally got blue version because everyone I knew had red but red is my favorite color. Anyway, that’s my anecdote on the early Pokémon competitive scene.
This is such a concise and easy to understand explanation of what happened when real world competitions merged with the series. I honestly wonder if the way to satisfy the different kinds of Pokémon fans would be to have several series run concurrently. Hopefully Legends Arceus is a sign that they’re considering dividing series between single player role playing and multiplayer competitive. PS I’ve followed you since Pokémon green and Lavender Town creepy pasta and for my money you’re still the Pokémon content creator GOAT. Keep up the great work!
It would be interesting to see them do more things like PLA where they just go focus on something different. Maybe like a dragon Quest joker professional compared to the regular version.
God, I love DQMJ so much. It's so freeing to be able to put effort into your monsters and even get your weaker, favorite ones up to snuff with items to combine them with stronger monsters.
Synthesis in that game as a mechanic makes it so any monster can get as good as the late-game bullshit monsters that are hard to come by (even though in the end, those are used due to having way too much stockpiled traits that make them better than anything else).
In my experience EV/IV training made battling random people in the GBA/DS era more balanced. Most people who did implement EV/IV training adhered to the tier list or mons legal in the Battle Frontier, while those who didn’t generally had a team full of Ubers, making battles fairly interesting either way
From the sounds of things, it's a miracle we ever got games as enjoyable as Gen V (I liked B/W for what they were, but I know most people only enjoyed B2/W2).
Yeah, I guess this video really puts it into perspective on why the games are the way they are today, and that is that they're more accessible. With this in mind, I wonder how they're gonna handle Gen V remakes? Or will they do something unexpected and make B3/W3? 🤔
Honestly, these videos have given me the brainworms to craft my own Pokemon-like, thinking a lot about these mechanics...
A Tama Byte deep dive idea that I would like to see is one on what they were trying to do when introducing doubles battles. Like how and why it became the official format, how it changed (very different in gen 3), and maybe why triple battle didn’t stick.
Another video?! And it isn’t spaced out a year apart from the last one?! Yes!!! Keep them coming! I don’t even like Pokémon I just like watching your vids!
Funny how she's a pokemon channel but u don't like pokemon
Tama Hero as always proving me that the devs put a whole more thought into gen I than we give credit for
Insightful!
I think to go along with the end of the video, the bottle cap and mint systems actually do as best they can at keeping the every Pokémon is unique thing.
Bottle caps and mints don’t actually change the pokemon’s fundamental attributes, they just give it the positive characteristics. It’s not a perfect solution but I think it’s a really clean way of doing it. Great video all around.
I love that this channel is going through a renaissance. The stuff you've made this year has been really interesting, and this video is no different. It's especially rewarding to watch for me having been subbed for roughly a decade and getting to see the content grow and improve.
Wow, so many uploads recently. It's a good time to be a Tama Hero fan! Great content btw!!
turning stats into something that feels like characterization is incredibly challenging and a bevy of single player only rpgs have the problem of all the characters feeling the same and that's with 5-10 characters. the challenges of doing that with hundreds of characters who don't have spoken dialog to backup that characterization is beyond challenging.
This was amazing!!! I think a cool video you could make is discussing Pokémon's route designs.
To summarize: her shoulder just cracked.
Another great video. Your last long essay blew away all other colosseum videos but when it ended I was worried it would take forever for more content yet here you are with the best explanations on competitive pokemon I’ve ever seen. For personal enjoyment I prefer long videos but this is the perfect length for this topic because I have friends with shorter attention spans that can get through this whole thing and finally understand my point about competitive play. I love this format and I hope you keep it up. Your wisdom on pokemon is needed within the fan base.
I remember replaying pokemon emerald on a phone emulator a long time ago. I remember getting to the battle frontier and being like, well, time to cheat. Because the pokemon that the AI used actually had good ivs and evs, and i just remember wondering who in the world would breed legit pokemon in the conditions of the time. I guess dedicated japanese players?
I did. They weren't perfect but good enough with the right strategy.
Oh, this is really good look at a topic that I think doesn't get enough conversation around it.
Pokemon really is a lot games packed into one, and as a person who enjoys both the RPG adventure and competitive sides immensely, I wouldn't want either side to be diminished.
The Mints and Bottle Caps are actually one of my favorite things they've added in the series. From a mechanical perspective, not only do they make competitive play more approachable, but they also give you the opportunity to do something that was very rare in older games: using the Pokemon you played the story with successfully in high-level play! The Bottle Caps and Hyper Training, to me at least, carry this positive message that with perseverance and effort, you can overcome what you've been told your limits are and be anything you want
The way that there are "right" and "wrong" versions of each Pokemon has really started to bug me lately. It's such a feels-bad moment when you finally find a Pokemon you really want, only to realize that its nature is detrimental to what you want it to do. Do you keep searching for another one? Do you just use the one you got even though you know it could be better? I don't really bother with IVs and EVs during the storyline, but natures are what get to me because they're right there and visibly have an impact. Abilities too, for that matter. Does it have a good nature and bad ability? What then? I love the versatility of all this for post-game/multiplayer, raising the perfect Pokemon can be fun, but I feel like it's a case of too many variables for the standard story mode.
Not that I play multiplayer anyway, like any competitive game it doesn't interest me that much. The Stadium style games were the perfect middle-ground for me, because they were focused on higher-difficulty battling but still seemed almost like puzzles that could be solved in a variety of ways. Sure, I could use only the strongest Pokemon in the game and plow through everything, or I could use whatever weird team I had built and have a bit more fun with the challenge that way.
I think that they never intended for EV/DV and IV to be discovered. It was just a mechanic to make pokemon unique and make sure pokemon of the same species can have different stats. They wanted to have people pick their pokemon based on what they liked, the stats that they could see, and the moves they could give them.
Then looking into the code of games and the internet happened.
Nahhh they had vitamins since gen one. They’re def there for a competitive side. Especially with breeding being introduced in gen 2.
@@dimelo115 no not really only that the Japanese's players had 3 different competitive versions of the first Pokémon stadiums games for Pokémon red and green versions also blue version. yes Pokémon stadiums earlier Japanese's releases where a massive hit for Japanese's players they loved the competitive Pokémon scene. I mean the Japanese's guy's who made game freak were gamers them selves they even admitted it.
no not really only that the Japanese's players had 3 different competitive versions of the first Pokémon stadiums games for Pokémon red and green versions also blue version. yes Pokémon stadiums earlier Japanese's releases where a massive hit for Japanese's players they loved the competitive Pokémon scene. I mean the Japanese's guy's who made game freak were gamers them selves they even admitted it.
@@dimelo115 But the only way to really use them efficiently was to burrow in the inner workings of the game. And breeding has more uses than just getting better pokemon.
To me and all of my friends Pokemon died after Gen V's Black 2/White 2. It really says something about their business priority when I can have more fun with BATTLE FRONTIER than all of the games from Gen VI onwards combined. Removing Battle Frontier (or something equivalent) was the biggest mistake they could ever do and to this day I don't support Pokemon nor Nintendo with my money because of it and let's just say I know I'm far from being the only one here.
This is a great video, and is legitimately the first time I've ever heard Tama cuss without a pokemon cry over it and it made me giggle a little 🤣
The sad part is, all items on Smash Bros is probably more balanced than LoL. Modern day LoL is so overloaded with damage because the devs repeated nerf all forms of durability including armor/mr/hp on items/from "runes" as well as shields, life steal and other heals and other forms of flat/percent reduction all while never touching the biggest source of damage in LoL. Champion base damages. Brand has always done 250ish base damage per ability at rank 5, but it hurts a lot less when you're rushing an athenes unholy grail in season 3, with 12+ MR on runes/masteries, and 216 scaling hp. Where as nowadays you take that big damage with your measly 8 MR from masteries on top of whatever BS keystone he decided to run, while you both rush an item like Liandries which adds no bulk.
All that damage makes for an even more inbalanced game than Pokemon which is already very damage favored. Smash on the other hand, might be a little less balanced due to RNG but it's still equal opportunity, and some of the items actually help to lessen the gap between top tier picks and low tier picks.
I think focusing on doubles as the official competitive format was kind of a way to sooth this tension. They can focus on making doubles dynamic and strategic and singles gets to just be that chaotic coin flip stuff you were talking about.
After all, Double Team isn't banned in VGC, and there's no sleep clause, but the format isn't plagued by that stuff bc a 2v2 inherently gives both players more agency to play around it etc.
To make singles competitive, Smogon literally had to invent its own ruleset bc otherwise that format would just be casual cheese like you say - a game where the best player doesn't always win bc that high-variance play is rewarded more there.
Not sure how this plays into the single-player experience, since that's also 90-99% single battles, but it's something else to think about...
Y'know an aspect about Pokémon discourse I hate is when people judge the games based on the competitive metas of each generation. Like, they'll say "I hate gen __ because this one pokemon was op and everyone used it" or whatever. You're no longer judging the games, you're judging competitions from outside the games. But then they'll say "but online battling is a feature in each game". It's still dumb to judge a game/whole generation on a feature, though. I don't hear anyone complaining about how the beauty contests ruined gen 4
As someone who got into competitive in Gen 5 I really felt this. I spent hours breeding Pokemon just for the right Nature and Ability and seeing what their characteristic was so they likely had at least 1 perfect IV. Once Gen 6 hit and both EV training and breeding for IVs got easier (Destiny now allowed Pokemon to pass down IVs) I spent a lot more time playing competitively. Of course even with this change I would have not spent as much time battling if it weren't for randomly getting a definitely hacked 6 IV Ditto to make breeding easier. Besides being an adult with responsibilities the main reason I stopped focusing on competitive was because my game got stolen late in Gen 6 so that killed my drive. I entered a few tournaments in Gens 7 and 8 and had fun since its only gotten easier to quickly build a team.
Yea, imagine make an extra effort to make actual money in a game, Crazy right?; let's tell sports and esports player to stop sweating too hard and go drugs instead XD. Nice vid btw.
But *clearly* nuzlockes/competitive/shiny hunting are the only ways to play the game if you’ve played a Pokémon game before and there are no other legitimate or intended playstyles.
The question is: have IVs ever actually made Pokémon feel like unique creatures? Has anyone noticed the stats changes in terms of how they look at the Pokémon? I’d argue, no, none of this. IVs are ultimately useless from both perspectives. To make individual mons feel more special and different from one another in general, they could just do visual variations (such as the size differences we finally got in Legends) or even behavioral changes based on natures when you use features like picnics where you actually get to see your Pokémon just existing. A Lazy nature would make your mon sleep a lot more, a Timid nature would make it stay farther away from other mons and even the trainer (maybe only until its friendship level got raised!). There’s a lot they could do.
And for the luck and randomness factor in battles, they can leave it up to moves and abilities.
EVs are much better because they’re more about training and using different builds rather than just being gimped from the beginning etc. I wouldn’t make it so their best use is always maxing out 2 stats and ignoring the others, but they’re currently innocuous enough already.
Visual differences should definitely be a thing, but gameplay ones need to be as well. However you are right that you can't actually feel the difference of IVs. I think they should just give pokemon a list of unique moves, like how egg moves are. Just make the conditions in which you obtain them different.
There will still be the optimal meta movesets, but for in-game it would make the pokemon a little more unique.
Different behaviour would cool if it wasn't because the games are so broken I would always assume is a glitch or just RNG.
I feel like they should return to the DV system somehow. Let me explain:
Modern games are set up in a way that you'll receive something for all your efforts, you'll eventually find a shiny if you keep battling, look hard enough and you'll find competitive items scattered across the world without having to grind BP for them, battle enough trainers and you'll have money for stuff like Vitamins, grind enough raids for even better items which can be the Mints, Bottle Caps and Ability changing items, essentially the way for any regular Pokémon to become competively viable if you get attached to them.
But the EV system still runs against that, you have to make lots of planning ahead for lots of battles and make hefty investments into Vitamins in order to minimize that grind, and get rare berries for corrections. I find the old system better because you could just grind, your stats are improved because you level up, but also because your DVs increase significantly, essentially any Pokémon can be the best version if itself even if the IVs still provided a little variance to that.
I feel like Gen 3 should have introduced either Natures or the new EV system (with a way to reset a Pokémon btw), but both of them at once add a significant early grind that doesn't provide much benefit or room for error.
“A right a wrong way for each Pokémon to be” eugenics but FOR KIDS 😂
Personally, I really like that any pokemon as of SwSh can be made competitively viable. A lot of people get attached to specific pokemon (like their starter or a shiny) and getting to use that specific pokemon over one that naturally has a better nature/ability/I.Vs is one of the best things added to gen 8.
the lighting on this vid feels so nostalgic. really working with my sa2 playthru rn
y'know what you could do a video on: The Gimmicks.
It's a hard truth about most JRPG (and WRPGs in a lot of instances, D&D 3.5e being a notable example) systems that fully optimizing one's play almost invariably makes the game worse. When we were kids and didn't take time to excessively grind, didn't spend hours and weeks finding item and team building synergies, and the games were still challenging to some degree, they were a lot more fun than now where we have 'perfect' information about every available build, and the meta for the game more or less eventually becomes completely solved.
This is why Nuzlockes 'fix' so much about Pokemon. The strategic situation of the game becomes much more interesting when your optimization options are arbitrarily limited and you potentially have to make the best of a bad situation, rather than always having every tool at your disposal to fully utilize. Optimizing is meaningful when the game is still challenging enough to accommodate it.
Which brings us to multiplayer, where in addition to EVs being bad JRPG design (grind = objectively more power rather than interesting, unique sidegrades) there are a myriad of crazy items (Leftovers comes to mind as a prime example) which are required knowledge to even have a chance at winning.
So when you bring up RNG being more fun for inexperienced players because less experienced players can win through utilizing such tactics, I absolutely agree. I think in a way, this is better design because ultimately the use of tactics should prevail over choosing the correct build in any battle system.
Sadly, I think outside of a few gimmicks, modern Pokemon multiplayer is mostly a deterministic system, prone to being 'solved' like most other games with RPG leveling mechanics, and will likely remain so. RPG mechanics are intrinsically meant to provide power differences by design through the use of statistical representations of strength, and Pokemon falls in line here with a myriad of other games where optimizing always means either picking the best numbers or stopping somebody else from picking the best numbers.
Not that Pokemon isn't fun, of course. But the system has limitations bound to its engine that would need an extreme overhaul to balance thaf would leave most players frustrated, outraged, or most likely, quite bored.
Tama bytes sounds like a breakfast cereal like dino bites 😝
I think they made a mistake with natures in gen 3. Pokemon had individuality with egg moves and dvs. Natures straight up made Pokemon worse as opposed to sub optimal if you get the wrong one and make the coin flip to get ivs even worse. In a playthrough of the game casually you WILL notice that your modest Machamp just frankly sucks.
The original Pokémon silver,Gold and crystal versions all just required you to fight wild Pokémon to max DV''s exp Gains it was very easy to max any Pokémon. while I was playing those old school versions trainer Pokémon do not give you DV exp Values only wild Pokémon do that was changed in Pokémon gen 3 though.
I believe there are simple solutions that coiuld have been implemented even in the older games, let's say like unlocking a dark flute that will make pokemon you hatch or encounter have perfect ivs. They could have dropped the IV mechanic completely while still keeping natures, obviously hidden power mechanics would have to get sacrifice or change altogether but the point is that there are options.
you do realize we have items now that basically do that now thanks Pokémon gen 8 sword and shield they are called mints for changing Natures and bottle caps for maxing IVs and EVs on a Pokémon no need to breed any more. Gen 8 also has Hidden ability capsules that make it so any Pokémon you catch no longer has to breed just use those items.
@@1BadAssArchAngelvs14 I already know all that (even though my last pokemon game was sun and moon) Her video was discussing making competitive pokemon in older gens not just new.
You’re gorgeous.
Nice lil vid. My fav thing is the stats judge in gen 3 being a jerk and only telling you one stat, and if you've got more than 1 as the same stat, doing a random one of the two.
IMO, getting rid of IVs altogether is long overdue.
I stopped being a Pokémon fan years ago but man, your videos are amazing. I love the topics you bring to the table.
There's even more bullshit than that. Sometimes you would specifically want bad IVs in certain stats, like Physical Attack and Speed, or even Defenses to maximize Counter and Mirror Coat.
Since Hidden Power (arguably the worst move ever, as it only encouraged hacking) has been removed, they should just automatically set all IVs to 31 for multiplayer and the Battle Tower or whatever it's called now. If nobody has a material advantage, nobody can complain about hacking.
There are still plenty of gimmicky ways to break the game, for which IVs and EVs don't even matter. One of my trolling teams back in X/Y had around 80% win-rate on Battle Spot, and it only required one turn of setup to put Sturdy onto Shedinja in Doubles, by using Klutz in a mostly unintended way. Sadly, the extreme power-creep in the later games seemed to specifically punish gimmicks and creative strategies in general.
Between the announcement of Legends:Arceus and the announcement of Scarlet/Violet, I expected TPC to have 2 parallel series of games: one that's open world and focused on the singleplayer, the other that gets more and more like Showdown with each new entry. Now that Scarlet/Violet are the direct successors to Sword/Shield, that theory's out the window.
I mean... there are some aspects they could work on for balance that wouldn't pull the game too far in any direction. Take the type chart for example. EVERY person playing benefits more from having the types be balanced, and the type chart has never been close. Every time they introduce a new type they create new problems as if they can't envision the consequences of adding something like steel with that many resistances.
When they added fairy (which is a magical made up thing where you get some leeway in determining weaknesses unlike elements like fire and water) the last thing they needed was to make bug weaker offensively by adding another resistance. They also couldn't think maybe something like Ice could use even a single useful resistance? Poison was a great choice to make more useful offensively, but then you go and choose Steel as the other? You made the most useful defensive type better offensively? Why?! Making Steel type offensive moves more common is NOT good for Rock and Ice types. Did you even think this through?
It's a pretty easy fix. Do what any competent PvE RPG does with their PvP: Put players on an even playing field by allowing them to allot their pokemon stats as they see fit. Essencially making the PvP of the game Pokemon Showdown. All you need to use a pokemon is the pokemon itself. You go into the mode and are allowed to set IVs, EVs and moves for that mode only. Whenever you are in the PvE portion of the game your pokemon has their random IVs and whatever EVs you got on it as usual.
So you still need to get at least 1 copy of the pokemon you want to use, but you don't have to waste hours of life for no reason.
Something kinda niche that has always interested me in Pokémon is the farming sim aspect, so-to-speak, with growing berries and cooking them into pokéblocks and whatnot; maybe a potential deep-dive idea? 🤷♀️
Great opinion piece! Been a fan for a long time, keep up the great work Tama :)
I have a couple ideas on how to make it even more unbalanced just to see what happens
* Aegislash now has its stat reduction in Gen 8 undone
* Both forms of Raichu gets 45 points added to its Defense
* Alolan Raichu has Levitate as a hidden ability
* Both Raichu forms can use the Light Ball
* Azurmarill has a BST of 500 as 10 points have been added to its attack while 35 points get added to Defense and Special Defense and it still has Huge power
* Truant lets Slaking use Snore and other sleep required moves along with healing 1/12th of its HP while loafing around
* Gyarados either gets Dragon Ascent or is retyped to Water/Dark
* Metagross gets Tough Claws as a hidden ability instead of Light Metal
* Rough Skin is now available as a regular ability for Garchomp with Speed Boost becoming the new Hidden Ability
* Gengar retains Levitate as a hidden ability while Gastly and Haunter get Cursed body as their hidden ability
* Flygon gets Sand Stream as a hidden ability
* Normalize now deactivate before a move is used on a Pokemon normally weak to it along with Ghost, Rock, and Steel type Pokemon
* Hydreigon no longer has Levitate as its only Ability. Now there’s a chance of your Hydreigon getting Mega Launcher when you evolve your Zweilious
* Slow Start reduces Attack and Speed by 10%
* Regigigas now has 120 speed giving it a BST of 690
I want to spread chaos you see
Long comment alert!! You've inspired me to write it, however, so I'll blame you :P
You reminded me of a quote: "Given the chance, players will optimise the fun out of a game." This quote feels right, but has an ambiguous relationship with Pokémon.
Grinding days or weeks for a single "perfect" team member can be mind-numbing, more so when you multiply that time by six. Granted, because of how heavily dependent the process is on RNG, it could take you far less or far longer to finish.
On the other hand, there's never really a moment where battling isn't fun in Pokémon (barring stall players). Every time I see someone like Wolfe or PokeAim battle online, they're having a great time and joking around, even when they're on the ropes. They laugh off dumb luck like freezes, crits, and misses, even though it costs them the game, and still put on a phenomenal show.
Considering they're both top-level players in their own rights, knowing that they still enjoy this game even at high-tier play is fantastic! Too often, I'll see a game where the top players have optimised to an absurd degree, sometimes running into players with the exact gear they have and running the most boring meta strategies to edge out a win.
Pokémon's RNG helps out immensely with its constant playability and hampers burnout _so_ much. Even if you make sure you're max HP/max SpDef Calm Heatran, a Specs Greninja Hydro Pump still has a _chance_ to 2HKO you from full. Magma Storm still has 75% accuracy, and Protect still has a chance to fail if you spam it for more chip damage. Even in the height of competitive play, you're at the mercy of damage rolls, paralysis or confusion chances, and basic accuracy checks.
Compare that to, for instance, Smash Bros. Competitive matches are generally played on flat, stable arenas with little to no changes, items are turned off, and the players generally use their best characters or counter-pick. It's just the players duking it out, and top-level gameplay can be a genuine art-form. Alas, that's just not how Nintendo wants it to be. They want CHAOS, so they put in items. They want VARIETY, so they put in a huge roster of characters. They want EVERYONE to have fun, so they allow up to _eight_ players.
Pokémon might well be better off the way the developers intended, but they accept that there _is_ a "right" way to compete, and they've made it easier than ever to do so with every generation. Meanwhile, Smash without RNG is reaching unfun levels, according to Nintendo, so they actively attempt to shut the scene down or ignore it as much as possible.
TL;DR: For all the flak competitive Pokémon gets on the players' side, they DO get support on the developers' side. It's a game you _can't_ really optimise the fun out of, but you _can_ make the path to that fun tedious as can be. The same can't be said for a game you can optimise the fun out of, but you'll never really be on the developers' good side.
Also, I'm noticing on rewatch (have the video on loop while I'm typing this), but the exposure on your camera is wonky! Your poor nose wants to go into the light, but keeps returning for visitation half the time, bahahaha! Other than that, the aesthetic is great
I am so happy you're uploading more again q_q
The reasoning behind making IVs, EVs, and natures affect stats and thereby make each Pokemon feel unique has always felt weird to me because as a kid, I wasn't catching multiple of a Pokemon and comparing their stats, and I also wasn't ever at the exact same level as any of my friends on the odd occasion that we were raising the same Pokemon for our in-game teams. NPCs just told me every Pokemon was unique, and I took it on faith. And anyway, my Pokemon WAS unique from my friends' even disregarding stats. I had invested 3 PP Ups into Magnitude on my Golem and while my friend's Golem had Earthquake. Mine held leftovers while my friend's held Quick Claw. It seems like the only time you'd ever see that two Pokemon are "just numbers" as a kid is if you battled your friend in a mode where you normalized levels and both checked the stats of a Pokemon you both had. Maybe I just didn't ever do casual battles as much as other people, but that seems like a niche scenario.
I really think they should just get rid of IV's. Natures and EV's are more than enough to create variety among Pokemon species and allow strategy and customization for competitive multiplayer.
IV's on the other hand add nothing to the game, or add so little they aren't worth it. You almost always want your IV's to be fully maxed out (or minimizied in some edge cases). They don't add depth to the game, they just add a barrier to entry in the form of hours of grinding. If all Pokemon just had 31 across the board by default (in other words, if IV's just didn't exist) then any Pokemon could become competitively viable relatively quickly.
I'm all for the direction they've been heading with a standard story and casual mode - but with extensive post game min/maxing. It's a nice balance.
I just wish they gave single-player some more competitive love. I want an absolutely brutal single player post-game with teams and AI designed by world champs. THAT'S what I yearn for.
Give the antisocial people something to strive for too.
"ohmyshoulderjustcracked" 😂
SORRY, CAN'T TALK
I'M BUSY BEING
POPULAR ON-LINE
Took almost the whole video to read POPULAR so screw that Drowzee.
A solution to the problem.... it would not stop hacking but what if it was like fire emblem? Stats are increased by chance not guarantees. I.e 30% chance for a speed raise a level up. With different percentages in each stat depending on the pokemon. Then it's a matter of statistics and not effort. Perfect versions of pokemon are statistically impossible.
7:30 *Puts on glasses and nerdy accent* Hmm ackually in ruby and sapphire there is an NPC talking about how his hasty pokemon is faster and there is also the Effort Ribbon lady in Slateport that grants it once you max out your EV's.
Loved this video.
Don't lie to me Tama Hero
Pokémon Multiplayer/Competitive is not unbalanced
ITS PREDICTABLE
This was a very insightful, interesting and low-key depressing video about the balance of Pokemon. Insightful in the description of all three areas pokemon cover (plus the unfortunate but very understandable fourth one). The fascinating comes from realize how people, both in good and bad ways finds ways to basically "perfect" something and that makes it more skill based, but also less "fun" (not entirely, but basically the entry fee get higher each day) kinda like smash bros when you think about it. And the depressing part (to me) comes mainly from the eternal argument between the triple tug o war you described xD
All in all a great video, excited for more... A request I guess would be the gimmicks pokemon has used and maybe see how they fit the triple tug o war
Really interesting video and I’m love these mini videos and more in-depth reviews. I admit I never focus on IVs because even eight generations in I still don’t understand them.
I think someone else already mentioned this, but I’d interested in a Tamabyte on features that don’t return from generation to generation or game to game. I think a lot of fans complain about that. I imagine the reason is, you need new features to sell a new game, but I wonder if there’s more to it. Things ranging from your Pokémon walking behind you to the dream world to contests or that dungeon exploring thing your Pokémon do in the box in Sun and Moon. Maybe some those are so different they might need more than one video.
Also, not sure how to frame it, but something on spin-offs. GF couldn’t develop Coliseum as you said, but Pokémon was too big a franchise not to have more video games. What spin-offs do for the franchise, which are good, how they ‘adapt’ the material of the Pokémon world to their format (I imagine Mystery Dungeon does well cause it’s an RPG). Or how Pokémon Go exploded in popularity and what’s that effect on the franchise and main games now that it’s been a few years and Pokémon Go is rarer. But maybe that’s too far off from the main series games.
Forget multi-player, there are very few examples of single-player turn-based RPGs that are well-balanced experiences. So just the fact there's a lively multi-player community around one is kind of impressive. As more of the single-player sort of player, I appreciate the complex under-the-hood mechanics for likely what they were intended to be, mechanics to add uniqueness to our 'mons, but I can appreciate making them easier/practical for the people who are competitive. I just hope they never become "overly-exposed" like a lot of mechanics are in JRPGs anymore. Like where there's so many trackers and things in your face about it that you suddenly start caring about something you *actually* don't care about, but you just want the tracker to not be incomplete... Maybe this is a personal problem though. lol
Great video! I've never been interested in the competitive Pokemon scene, but I have browsed Smogen for ideas on which natures and move sets are suggested for some Pokemon. I play Pokemon for the single-player experience and to bond with my Pokemon teams. I may on rare occasions play with friends, and when I do, I would like my teams to be modestly optimized.
Great breakdown
This might be rather small, but I would love to hear your thoughts on the experience point system has changed throughout the gens. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on how this little change has affected the way you play pokemon. I initially thought making it share exp for all pokemon was a bad idea, and even worse by making it permanent. But after playing Legends Arceus, it's interesting to see how streamlining this system can add or mix well with pokemon's new formula!
2 videos in a month? Are you okay? 🤭
Man, I've been here since the days of the Lavender Town Theory videos and I gotta say, there's been a massive bump in quality since then.
Omg so much content from you recently, LOVE IT!
I mean...a showdown like editor with rental mons for official comp would be nice.
Visible IVs and EVs like sun and moon too.
Stick all the really OP things in the postgame.
i remember hatching eggs during gen 3 trying to get like 50 at a time and picking the best stat one and thinking to myself.... this really just isnt fun
i remember finally learning about ivs/evs during like gen 5 and thinking to myself.... wow. this seems so time consuming to do all those steps. and really just isnt fun
i also found it strange that the main competitive scene is doubles 4v4 when the game does like 80 percent singles 6v6
BUT HURRAY FOR CRACKING SHOULDERS!..... and snorlax
During Gen 6, I was trading away IV Eevees I didn't want, and one traded resulted in me getting a perfect IV shiny Dragonite named Beelzeus. Looking back I'm 100% sure it was hacked - why on Earth would anyone wonder trade that? But I was super excited because I could finally breed for Dragons with a suitable parent. Beelzeus ended up having 4 combat optimal daughters (none were male for some reason). The Salamences Alduin and Parthanaax, Garana the Garchomp, and Calmaryn the Dragonite.
Garana and Calmaryn were traded over to Pokémon X so could playthrough with them. The Twin Salamences I kept to farm battle points. They were unstoppable 😇 until they encountered a Weavile.
Yo Tama, I just have to say that you were one of the OG Pokemon UA-camrs I started watching years ago. Even through all the years after I started watching you still don't miss. Keep up the good work!
I prefer natures that don’t buff and nerf stats. It makes the Pokémon stats fee more raw to me atleast. I like EVs but going for specific like SpD and SpA is harder early on in the game since there aren’t many Pokémon that give SpD/SpA EVs. Pokémon Showdown negates MAJORITY of the problem of raise competitive Pokémon in game but that’s because you can literally costumize the Pokémon stats moves and natures.
I really love these Tama bytes so far! You have a lot of passion for Pokémon which I totally feel but admittedly even though Pokémon is my favorite thing I'm honestly thinking about not picking gen 9, but we'll see soon enough.
I would LOVE to hear you talk about Pokémon "Gimmicks". I tell people it pains me to say it, because I love it and desperately want it to to return, but Mega Evolution IS a gimmick. I find it amazing Mega Evolution was the only cross gen gimmick but we had that, z moves, dyna/gigantamax, and now terastallize.
I think the history should be interesting enough, why was it introduced? Why take it away?
I think a conversation about IV’s and what they add would be good. I have thoughts about them, but I am also one person with no idea of the background mindset IV’s. So, I would be working off of a fairly ignorant stance based on my own limited experience.
Honestly, I think the problem with Pokemon multiplayer is just that... RPGs don't really lend themselves well to multiplayer. At least, not when they're as structured as Pokemon is. A big reason tabletop RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons work is because their rules are inherently loose or open to interpretation in some way, but RPG video games can't be made in that way, because... well, they're video games. They have a specific set of programmed rules and functions, and the only way something outside of those specifications can occur is through a glitch. In D&D, if you're fighting something like a giant, ancient dragon, chances are it's going to have a big statistical advantage over you, and to beat it, you'd probably have to do something the game's rules didn't explicitly plan for (Not cheating or breaking the rules, but doing something that wasn't specifically designed around). But in a video game RPG like Pokemon, there is no reliable way to work around that kind of disadvantage, since there isn't enough controllable variance to change the statistical outcome. You'd either have to rely on luck with the game's RNG, or simply get a bigger, stronger stick to hit with. There's too much structure to allow for you to fully outskill and/or outplay your opponent like you could in a game that has less structure, like League of Legends or Overwatch.
Now, I could be COMPLETELY wrong about this, I'm not a game designer or a competitive video game player, I have zero qualifications. That's just what I think, and if you can prove me wrong, please do so, because I would love to learn something I didn't know!
A lot of people here are mentioning that competitive Pokémon is boring since only around 15 or so Pokémon get used mostly. That’s not really true, and perpetuating that sort of view doesn’t give an amazing look to competitive players.
In singles, the major way of competitive play has always been separated into usage tiers specifically to allow for more Pokémon to be used. These tiers have anywhere from 20-40 Pokémon usually, sometimes even more. There’s always meta Pokémon who will get used more, but across *all* of competitive, there’s a lot of important Pokémon to keep in mind, definitely not 15 or so. And, even if Pokémon aren’t in a certain tier, Pokémon like Reuniclus or Rotom-Wash still can get high usage in tiers above where they are, so tiers in singles aren’t set and stone.
I have less experience in VGC, but it does try to have variety with series’ which limits which Pokémon could be used. Obviously Pokémon like Landorus, Incineroar, and Kartana get used very often, but there’s still a bunch of interesting one-off choices that happen occasionally. VGC may honestly be less diverse than singles just because it’s essentially one big tier and Pokémon have such a drastic power difference from eachother when all of them are put together.
It’s true that several Pokémon are very common in competitive Pokémon, and some Pokémon are so potent that not using them is considered having a bad team (mainly GSC OU’s Snorlax,) but overall, a large amount of Pokémon are important to competitive. That, plus different moves, items, abilities, items, EVs/IVs, and natures mean even one Pokémon can be drastically different depending on the team. Competitive encourages a lot more creativity than people gives it credit for
I love how you described Gen 1 mechanics and why it was that way. People nowadays see gen I *exclusively* from the "competitive" standpoint and are like "this is trash, it's so unbalanced!", b!tch, it wasn't supposed to be to start with.
Playing SwSh made the divide between the single-player and the competitive Pokémon experiences much more obvious. I started wondering if GameFreak could possibly bridge the gap between the two by using the single-player mode to teach players about the mechanics necessary for competitive battling. Otherwise, the team you beat the Champion with is woefully unprepared for online battles. SwSh makes it easier than ever to develop competitive teams, but most of that is largely unexplained, even in the post-game. There’s not a single NPC who tells you the caps for EVs-how would someone know that the cap is 252 in one stat to a total 510 across all stats if you don’t look up online guides? Maybe GF is depending on the community to do that for them, though.
They should remove IVs from the game. They're the hardest to perfect, and offer no drawbacks. Whereas nature and EVs are a system that support different builds, and there isn't a 100% perfect build. And much more manageable than IVs. (I do have nostalgia for building 5 max IV teams in gen 6, but that's in the past)
I love how much content you're posting lately. If it's easier to do these kinds of videos versus working on a single hour long video all year I suggest doing these. Hope you make a video on Legends Arceus!