Gen 8: Wish Blissey is an amazing support Pokemon that was only available in a single event in Gen 3, not to mention the Knock Off and Toxic spam that isn't available on most mons in Gen 8. Gen 1: What? You telling me that you have to bring a mon to a Johto and then back?? TF is a Johto?
I think of all the things that encompass the ginormous bubble that is "Competitive Pokémon", this is probably the most _thing_ that never ever crossed my mind. Tradeback Moves are clearly a _thing_ and they always have been (in RBY), so I don't know why I never stopped to think "oh, this _thing_ sure would knock the socks off the Gen 1 metagame". Interisting. Goes to show how deep the roots of the _status quo_ of RBY go in my mind, damn.
Tradebacks ban is such a weird one considering that Pokémon Yellow changed movesets and added TM moves. It seems a very bizzare choice made by a small group of people that stucked due to inertia. I remember reading all about Tradebacks back in the day and how cool it was to use those new moves when I played Stadium 1 and seeing those red fonts.
@@tomaszubiri4588 It's mostly a few additions to level up sets to make Pokemon more reasonable without TMs and placing moves at more reasonable levels. Things like Mankey and Scyther getting actual same-type moves on the list (low kick and wing attack respectively) and the Nidos getting Double Kick at 12 instead of 43. Probably the most notable is Pickachu gets Thunderbolt via level up.
@@tomaszubiri4588 pikachu learns thunderbolt at level 26 in yellow In red/blue the only offencive electric move it learns (other than thundershock) is thunder at level 43.
Yeah, I have no idea why tradebacks would be banned, that's crazy-- *Snorlax gets a sleeping move* .... ....crazy that people think tradebacks should be legal, that's messed up
The easy answer to this is just ban event move tradebacks. That way nobody else gets Lovely Kiss, but breeding moves are still okay. Nobody can get those moves anymore without cheats, so it shouldn't matter.
Okay so I just looked back and saw how many of these important moves do some from these events. Like Hypno doesn't get Amnesia naturally to my great surprise. So maybe just ban tradeback Lovely Kiss specifically. Or even just Snorlax Lovely Kiss.
I consider the tradebacks of gen 2 to be gen 1's "expansion pack" of sorts similar to for example how there are new move tutors in emerald, platinum, hgss, bw2, oras and usum,. The issue is that unlike all those other updates it was done sort of post generation since they reworked alot for gen 2 despite it also functioning like a phuesdo second set of games to gen 1 similar to how gens 3 and four have two starting games, a premium game and then another set of games. What is of note is that there are plenty of gens with changes this big introduced in later games in the gen but we dont have formats for their legacy versions. And no I am not saying make gen 1 ou become transfers to be clear but to consider the idea of mid generation formats as a whole
It's interesting how tradebacks are allowed in terms of DVs, but not moves. Due to the way gen 1 RNG works, certain combinations of DVs are impossible. Most notably, 15/15/15/15 is unobtainable legitimately in RBY. However, you can get them in GSC and trade it back. It makes sense since having 1 less of a DV is less impactful than moves, even though on a fundamental level they're the same. Plus, early simulators may not have known about the impossible combinations, or decided that it wasn't worth the effort to code in a check.
I assume this is because moves are transparent and DVs are opaque, so you would have no way of knowing whether the DVs are from a tradeback or not. Enforceability is a huge factor in rule making, pokemon being no exeception.
So Gen 1 tradebacks is a relatively niche metagame that's primary feature and draw is a strong bulky psychic type that gets great coverage and uses Amnesia to boost up and sweep? Ubers lite, then. Sounds awesome.
@@gamingwhilebroken2355 some notable ones are counter, headbutt, light screen (but not reflect) , and that's pretty much it for "useful" , wing attack (already there) only gets to 52 base power after STAB. Scyther and all bug pokemon basically had nothing in gen 1 and 2 due to them purposely designed as early-game help. Even Venomoth out-performs Scyther in both gens...Pinsir has better type coverage with Submission and in tradebacks can learn rock THROW. Rage could be useful to some due to it raising attack in gen 1
Ended up watching the whole RBY Bytes playlist after this one. The entertaining visuals go so well with the insightful commentary. Great stuff all around.
It's a litle disappointing to me that old traditions that people just simply didn't bother to move on from that made Tradebacks not allowed in Gen 1 OU, but at least it has its own meta. I'd love to learn more about that meta. Interesting analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
It's sad, but makes sense...there were so few resources for Tradebacks back then, it was sort of considered to be "black magic". Without any resource to use for validation etc I can see why it was put down.
@@PlaguevonKarma If the only concern was validation, seems hypocritical; I'd say that DVs & stuff like Event Pokemon moves are more or less the same difficulty to verify, simulator or not. "Yeah, I totally got 1 of these Pokemon Center Pokemon! ....What, you traded your Hypno to Gen 1 from Gen 2? Stop lying." Thanks for the answer nonetheless.
@@sagacious03 Pretty sure the validation issue is people not knowing what moves are legal, not that they think you obtained the pokemon "legitimately." People may not have known that/how Snorlax learns sweet kiss. If someone brings an explosion Tauros your first assumption is that they're cheating, not that there's a niche mechanic you didn't know about.
I always thought of trade back moves as giving the Pokémon a more updated moveset. Even in Just RBY yellow version added more possible TM moves to some Pokémon. If the game lets you do it it should be legal.
I love the idea of trade backs in newer gens. I like having my brave curse Scizor as well as my tangrowth with curse for fun niche sets. I also like having a Tyranitaur with dynamic punch for lols. Do you think there is any potential trade back stuff in newer gens that could be changing for a mon’s moveset? For example a mega lopunny with tripple axel, or venasaur with weatherball.
If you could get a Gen 7 Cloyster to Gen 1 you could have Twineedle funnily enough. Which in theory could have happened if Gen 1 VC was allowed to trade with Gen 7 :P
This has actually come up for me recently, since me and my friends have been playing little tournaments together with our own rules - the important one here is it uses pokemon and movesets up to gen 8, but also allows megas. Our next tourney is in doubles, and I wanted to use Mega Kangaskhan and - oh. *Oh*, it learns rock slide in SwSh. Flinch chance, attacks both opponents, applied twice... imagine this in gen 6, when Mega Kanga was at its peak. As said, I'm not a doubles expert, but I don't think this would have gone unnoticed if it were a possibility haha. I also haven't been able to test it yet so it's just a theoretical thing. Still, this idea has been clawing around my head like a tiny creature and I'm very interested to see if it works
Very random fun fact. Wheezing(via Tradebacks), is the ONLY Pokemon in Gen 1 who can learn Psywave, but NOT Psychic. Meaning(combined with his extremely shallow movepool in Gen 1) he might be the ONLY case, ever, where Psywave is even worth considering adding to the moveset. And even then, I'm not certain, as he does get Psybeam(which while not definitely better than Psywave, it is more consistent at the cost of lower max power and using his worse special) and you also have Fire Blast as a potential 4th move. But the fact it's even a 'maybe' option is funny to me, because there is no other meta anywhere where Psywave is an option that makes sense.
I always thought it was incredibly ridiculous that showdown sets gen 1 at max stats but doesn't allow trade back moves. It's like gen 1's true metagame is being memoryholed.
Thanks for adding captions. I remember being thrilled I could use Amnesia pokemon in Pokemon Stadium, but I mainly remember trying it in Little Cup with Tangela and Nidoran-M hehe.
The sheer fact that THIS is banned, while stuff like Wish Blissey wasn’t, shows it was a dumb idea made without hindsight in 2001 that really should have been course corrected ages ago.
For once I actually kinda side with the grassroots side of things. (Going to use JP release dates for explanations.) Taking Generation 3 as an example you essentially have 5 patches. 3.0 Ruby & Sapphire, released 21/11/2002 3.1 Ruby, Sapphire and Colosseum, released 21/11/2003 3.2 R, S, Colo and FR, LG, released 29/01/2004 3.3 R, S, Colo, FR, LG and Emerald, released 16/07/2004 3.4 R, S, Colo, FR, LG, E and XD, released 04/08/2005 For Generation 1 however you essentially have 4 patches. 1.0 Red & Green, released 27/02/1996 1.1 Red, Green and Blue, released 15/10/1996 1.2 R, G, B and Yellow, released 12/09/1998 1.3 R, G, B, Y and Stadium, released 30/04/1999 For Generation 2 you get just 2 patches. 2.0 Gold & Silver, released 21/11/1999 2.1 G, S and Crystal & Stadium 2, both released 14/12/2000 The tradeback moves are gen 2 moves in gen 1. It's the only gen you can get moves "from the future", for example you can not get Gen 5 moves into a Gen 4 game, even if the move was something like Ice Beam. Also considering just how different many of the moves function between 1 and 2, when Hypno was given Amnesia in Gen 2, it was given a move that is +2 SpD, not +2 SpD AND +2 SpA. Aerodactyl is an unfortunate loser here. In theory, these days you could have previous gens battle and trade with current gens. Especially on the Switch, for a Gen 8 vs Gen 9 battle, you would set it up so that the Gen 8 game can temporarily download the extra Pokémon data from Gen 9 and dump it when finished. Kinda would be unfair on the Gen 8 player though.
Downloading data and then dumping it with every trade would be horribly inefficient. However, the newer games have so much memory that adding new pokemon to it would be very easy. There aren't really any major software or hardware limitations
@@gabrielfonseca1642 Given that modern games all seem to use the same set of animations anyway (come on, game freak), it would be relatively easy to just port the new mons and add the data in an update to allow you to battle with future titles. They probably wouldn't bother, though, since they want people to buy the new games.
@@ENCHANTMEN_ That's what I was getting at. Gen 8 games could have the same features as gen 9, no need to download the data every time when you can just patch the game once
You're not counting events in any of that, though. Several events add moves to Pokemon and several of those moves completely changed how Pokemon were played.
The thing is, no one in the community sees a need for new life being breathed into the game. It has constantly changed with big discoveries for decades.
Yep! But it's not as good as you'd expect! Alakazam has issues fitting two punches, as Psychic, Thunder Wave, and Recover are so important. If you drop Seismic Toss, it ends up having to pick between losing to Starmie, Slowbro, and Vaporeon, or losing to Exeggutor, etc. It becomes much better in some matchups, but very easily walled in others.
@@PlaguevonKarma I really want people to have a better view on the Hypno line. Maybe if we do, Gamefreak will FINALLY give it an evolution in newer gens!
Ohhh, if you're on about the hate it got outside of Tradebacks, that's another story. I think Hypno largely deserves the controversy it's received. Its appearance in FRLG was kind of disgusting, to be honest, it's just an elaborate paedophile "joke". It's very hard for Hypno to escape those connotations, no matter how the Berry Forest event and/or FireRed Pokedex entry are interpreted. It wasn't controversial prior to FRLG in the west because they didn't decide to make it what it is now. What makes it worse is the FireRed entry was reused in Pokemon X.
thing i never understand is how event moves can be put onto the virtual console versions of the games. I don't touch showdown, or any of the online simulators, except for the trading card game, but sometimes i just want someone to fight, to see if my team is up to scratch, and i take every advantage i can get. with 2 3ds consoles i can trade between a gen 1 and gen 2 game to give pokemon like alakazam much needed coverage in elemental punch moves, and having gengar with ice punch is a god send.
I don't play pokemon anymore but I do enjoy hearing about these topics in competitive scenes, thoroughly enjoyed this video and also very based design.
From my very limited reading on the subject matter, gen2 does not appear to fix the cap of DVs. I remember there being a thread on this but, like, are you implying that RBY OU has an actual cap on DVs?
It's...sort of a cap, but not quite. The RNG is broken because it bases its DVs on encounter density among other things. So it's not a hardcoded cap, but in practice that's what happens. You cannot get all-15s with Pokemon encountered randomly.
@@PlaguevonKarma Cherry is asking what I was about to clarify to you. The main way this meta is played, via Pokemon Showdown, does not have the limit the game does. Every single Pokemon can run any DVS in gen 1 despite what is legally possible without tradebacks. In fact, this RNG problem effects gens 3 and 4 for non bred Pokemon, but showdown also does not implement those restrictions. For the record, I think this is bad and should be fixed. The sim has been straying ever further away from what the actual game does and is.
looking at the tradeback clause at 2:27, it only specifies that tradeback moves are banned, not the tradebacked pokemon by themselves. So, semantics loophole is in play there
Came here from Big Yellow and I've been wanting a video on this subject for a long time. Here's my issue with the whole subject: I'm fine with RBY OU banning tradebacks... but just make Tradebacks its own metagame. Like, just... make it its own thing. Why just kill off an interesting and unique metagame? So sad.
Oh sorry, I really should have watched the whole video before commenting lol. I'm glad it's finding its resurgence! I'd be very interested in watching a tournament featuring it!
July 10th, be there! www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rby-grand-slam-i-introduction.3703071/ The RBY Discord in the description also has a channel for tradebacks! Always love seeing people who want to develop it.
Given I was introduced to this channel by Big Yellow, I can't help but draw a connection between Tradebacks and a topic he brought up, Glitchmons and Hybrid Glitchmons. Thus, I'd be kind of interested, despite not being active in Gen 1's meta whatsoever, to potentially see the introduction of perhaps a subcategory of Tradeback Mons (which I have to assume would shake up the Meta enough to warrant its own category), a sort of balanced Anything Goes tier, which would introduce both Tradebacks and Hybrid Glitchmon movesets, and a true anything goes with just about anything Gen 1 can have. Sorry if I'm sounding ignorant here.
Tradebacks OU is its own tier, which I went over near the end of the video! It's a very interesting metagame which has seen exploration by people like myself. You can find more information on it here; www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rby-tradebacks-ou-exploration-discussion-thread.3683269/ There is also a tournament coming up next month, if you're interested in playing it for yourself; www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rby-grand-slam-i-introduction.3703071/post-9240258 A glitchmons tier has been theorised many times, but difficulties in simulation as a result of the sheer scope has made it difficult to play.
Honestly the tradebacks meta does not look as fun to me, maybe I'm biased since I really like RBY but part of why I like RBY is its limited. You can afford to make more mistakes and take risks to play mental games more than later gens. Having to guess which Pokemon is their sleeper out of a much wider pool and having to deal with several Amnesia mons that arent Slowbro would kind of ruin that.
a really good and informative video! might i just say though that the sound effects you use are a bit high in volume compared to the volume of your voice and the bgm
I think maybe bringing them to Stadium would be a neat idea. Right now there's like no reason to play stadium over console gen 1. Also I kinda want to see how broken Alakazam would be.
There are plenty of reasons to play Stadium over regular RBY! The mechanical changes make for a very different tier, one that's more familiar to newer gen players for sure. Exeggutor alone runs a completely different set because of how Rest's buffs and Sleep Powder's massive nerfs.
@@PlaguevonKarma I said it because of feeling too similar to gen 2 in a lot of ways despite the mechanical differences. Team preview is definitely neat but it isn't a deal breaker.
One question I've never found the answer to is, are Pokemon in GSC OU allowed to use moves they can only receive by way of being traded to/from RBY (most likely way being TMs, since those completely changed between gens)?
Yes, GSC can use "tradeforwards". It's crucial for the metagame; for example, Snorlax actively uses Double-Edge to give it its formidable offence. Without "tradeforwards", GSC is frankly almost unplayable. Smogon essentially locks generations after the next release arrives.
In light of the works being made by a user named Goppier, have you ever looked into the effects his best known work involving a link device would have on a subsequent kind of GSC tradeback & in turn the effects on RBY tradeback (as well as another kind of it to come out for Gen 8 from Gen 9)?
I have to agree with keeping Tradebacks and non-Tradebacks in entirely separate pens. Tradeback just allows certain tools to spread far beyond what they should.
3 ous? Well there are actually 4 ous! Regular ou, tradebacks, stadium and the one you forgot Japanese ou! Seriously how many ous can 1 gen have? Next thing you know they'll find out submission is actually 100 bp and 100% acc in the Brazilian version or something and they'll make another version of ou because of that huge change
Also fun Gen 1 tradebacks, no NYPC GEN 1 Tradebacks Stadium Stadium 2 battle from rby carts. Basically gen 1 pokemon with gen 2 rules. All of these were somewhat popular prior to 2003...
Also fun, but less justifiable Gen 3 tradebacks: All moves a pokemon learns in gen 3 are also legal. This could be expanded to any gen, but I've never seen anyone actually play this since gen 3 was current.
Rhydon when facing a weakned tauros in tradebacks: muhahahah you cannot ohko me with bllizard tauros! Unless you crit which sucks don't do that. Tauros: who said I had billzard? Rhydon: nani? Gets deleted out of existence by surf.
I have to say, I definitely agree with banning tradebacks in RBY OU. It just doesn't really feel like the intended way of playing gen 1. You mentioned how common trade forwards are in future gens, but I don't really think that any other gens have anything that can really be considered equivalent to tradebacks in RBY, something introduced in a future gen that affected the meta of the previous one.
It does shake up a lot of things though . I honestly love how Alakazam can now check Slowbro or Exeggutor with Ice Punch and Thunderpunch respectively and how Hypno just becomes bonkers with Amensia
Idea: Super Tradebacks You can only use Pokemon that have been traded all the way from the latest possible generation back to gen 1. No moves can be changed along the way, except the obvious purging of glitch moves
I would love to see RBY tradebacks as its own category to play. I don't see why not, it opens up a new realm of possibilities for a lot of Pokemon to shine. Why not shake up a meta that hasn't really changed too much over the last 20 years? Or just create an entirely different meta?
as we see it, previous gen moves are allowed (except gen 9 since gamefreak fucked that over for no reason) then tradeback moves are fair game too edit: Also perfect 15 DVs arent possible without gen 2 so if you can use their DV spreads you can use their moves
I recommend redoing audio takes where you feel the clarity of your words is weaker. It makes the video just nicer to listen to alongside the good quality content in the video. Nonetheless, have my sub good sir xD
Watching this video, I’m not even sure the PCNY Gift eggs should be allowed. We understand almost nothing about their generation method / possible legality in so far as DVs go. They’re generated by the distribution hardware, not the gameboy. Idk.
This debate has been had by many people in the past. RBY follows GSC's legality for them. How it works is this: They're allowed, with any possible DVs. You're right in that we don't know their DV distribution, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be disallowed. From a utilitarian perspective, it means they should be allowed as-is, pending the correct DVs being found as time goes on. People rarely contest that there shouldn't be the correct DVs, we just don't know what they are, so we allow any as would be normal for other Pokemon. This allows for the metagame to develop with the moves existing in general, which is healthier long-term than banning for sovereignty reasons. DVs don't affect *much* overall. It's notable that it's been over 20 years since these events and we still don't have a sample of the hardware, and chances are, it's probably lost to time. Ergo, banning them now would probably ban them forever. When it comes to Japanese metagames, you're also correct, and there are Japan-only events that are also experiencing the "vice versa" matter. Dragon Rage Magikarp for RBY and Absorb Phanpy for GSC, for example. These exist in their Japanese formats without PCNY and so on. Pokemon legality is complicated, but in general, Gens 1-2 allow as much as possible within what is reasonable.
@@PlaguevonKarma Totally valid and I appreciate the in-depth answer. It's just something I end up thinking about a lot since that's sorta my whole deal. I don't play a ton of gen 1 so it's not like my opinion is super well informed.
I don’t believe tadebacks are banned just because of a legacy decision. It’s not strictly a gen 1 format once you involve the 2nd generation to get specific moves.
Me, confused, having seen "tradebacks OU" on the meta list for like, at least a couple years now: 👁👄👁 Could be misremembering but I swear I've seen tradebacks being it's own meta for a WHILE? Or maybe it was just in development for a long time?
I didn't mean it in respect to them being completely irrelevant, just less impactful in terms of the overall history of the franchise, at least from the information I know with other users who spent time on there.
Good content but having the footage shrunk in the corner to make room for the avatar seems a bit counterproductive at least for a mobile viewer. Sort of reminds me of those channels that upload copyrighted tv shows and movies but restrict them to the corner of the video to dodge automatic content ID lol
It's hardly the corner...I've been keeping it about half and half. I have been working on increasing size overall in later videos, specifically the ones that are coming out soon.
Opposing Psychic-types and, to an extent, Chansey. Without Seismic Toss it's a lot more vulnerable than it looks. It also has to drop Thunder Wave, so Tauros can afford to trade a hit with it.
It's mainly about forcing it to Rest, if it's running it. Sometimes it doesn't, wherein it's usually about outliving it. Chansey and Alakazam are my go-tos, as they don't have any relevant weaknesses and can usually recover off the damage. In this case, both should have Seismic Toss. Once it's forced to Rest, bring in Snorlax and it's usually forced out, as a paraslam once it wakes up is curtains.
I'm shocked how many people say things like "it would completely change this tier that's been the same for decades!" Like it's a bad thing. I'm not interested in playing a meta game that never changes and it constantly the same
I mean, that's your right. The thing is, it's got a massive amount of history and *does* change. But this is not the right way to change it: this change isn't organic, it's forced for the sake of "correctness" rather than "rightness".
@@PlaguevonKarma The thing that bothers me most is that what they decide to keep or don't keep from what's actually on the cartridge is arbitrary. The 1/256 miss chance on 100% accurate moves is known to be a glitch and unintended, but it's kept on Showdown "because it's in the real games" meanwhile trade backs aren't in standard play despite being on the real games "because we don't want them" Where's the line? What's different aside from personal preference?
It's not just "because we don't want them," this is a terrible strawman. Did you even watch the video? It's because the game evolved that way, and the community and history that formed around it means that allowing Tradebacks to come to the forefront is actually a bit complicated. Why throw away over 20 years of famous battles that players use to build experience for the sake of what's "correct"? This isn't a black-and-white thing. It's upheaving a metagame that is still developing to this very day, a metagame that many people come and enjoy, for the sake of cynicism. The playerbase has been polled on this numerous times over the years and there has been consistently less interest in Tradebacks compared to other tiering decisions, such as addressing desyncs or how Sleep/Freeze Clause are handled than this, and even then, support is very low. Why? Because people like things how they are. What do you actually achieve by making a change nobody wants? All you do is divide a community that is - as I said in my video - very, very fragile. The line has been very clear for many years. Simulate Gen 1, and if it causes a desync, force a 1/256 miss. It is very simple and very straightforward. The 1/256 accuracy bit being a glitch isn't actually as clear-cut as you think, mind you! Check Stadium - it didn't fix the glitch, it instead made it double roll. That's a whole other video I want to make, though. It's kind of funny that you harp on about what's "intended" when Tradebacks themselves have less evidence for being "intended" than this.
Naturally, yes, but there are mods and stuff that can allow miracles like ADV -> GSC. These are generally not supported due to not being intended or official, though.
This feels like a 'wink wink nudge nudge' effort to encourage a pro-tradeback revolution and throw off the old guard. Of course, you DEFINITELY don't intend that. Definitely not. Yeah the community can be really stuck in it's ways. Through Gen 4-6 there was an extremely negative attitude to VGC because Smogon got in the door first and people were used to singles, you got tossed under the bus for preferring it even though it was official. That's very gradually softened, but it's a good example.
(This is ignoring the fact there was a proto-VGC format active in late Gen 3 and early Gen 4 for a couple of tournaments that had most of the same rules and was also doubles. Gamefreak has seemingly considered Double Battles the 'professional' format since they were introduced in Gen 3 despite what the fandom thinks.)
Tradebacks requires you to have a theoretical RBY and GSC cartridges, as opposed to just theoretical RBY cartridges. Thats why it should be its own meta.
@@PlaguevonKarma I'll probably have to watch the video again cause you just hit me with a pile of bricks of information, maybe I'll sub if I understand the video. Though if I don't, then no hard feelings, right milady?
@@PlaguevonKarma So, I looked over things and now I understand everything. Relatively, there's still a bit of me not understanding the culture of competitive Pokemon, because if you were to take a look at my channel and it's playlists and subscriptions you will certainly see kind of one of the biggest personal cultural bubble. Of course, if you can explain to me why a Gentleman's Rule is backwards and just show me much more of a more "well-defined image" of just how "grassroots" the kind of people that ran these types of things are like, then maybe I can actually start piecing together each part of this video and probably create a historical image of what happened here, because what it sounds like is "some kids from way back when discovered this Tradeback device, used it, discovered incredible Pokemon like Aerodactyle and Snorlax as well as terrible Pokemon like Hypno, decided to ban it, argued with each other to set up a Gentleman's Rule, and the Gentleman's Rule isolated this mechanic off to it's own little 'OP' meta". Does this sound accurate? OH wait, I forgot about that ending part with it being relatively OK and not breaking everything because the players say they are fine! Oooooohhhh, well can I have a link to a battle showing Tradeback at it's most broken and at it's most balanced? Or should I just like, look it up myself? Yeah I'll just look it up, brb.
Well yes, the original rule was short-sighted and generally terrible. Everyone in the RBY Community knows that. But you can't just destroy a metagame that is quite literally as old as Pokemon itself. But the metagameS it created allowed for two developed formats to exist, which is a beautiful thing.
Huh? I mean, if you had both games, you had the mons. If you're on about the events, nobody talked about that in any thread that led to the ban - the thread that fired it off was Confuse Ray Starmie of all things...
The modern Smogon meta should legalize trade backs. RBY is just far too centralized and uninteresting as a result of it being really 3 spots for free. It’s a throw and far less consistent not to have Chansey, Taurus and Snorlax on your team. This is the best way to make it less centralized.
A centralized meta game is not necessarily bad. What we should want from a meta game is interesting gameplay. Centralization can lead to uninteresting gameplay, but just because centralization exists in a meta game doesn't mean it should automatically be eliminated, nor is it knowable if centralization can be eliminated. Attempts to fix a centralized meta game can just as easily cause new centralization. What if a metagame had 18 viable pokemon, but due to their roles formed only 3 viable teams? The mons might not be centralized but the teams are. OU is still having big changes. Victreebell rose to OU, and Chansey is no longer considered a mandatory pick (although it is still definitively the 3rd best Mon in the tier). Plus there are other RBY metagames that are still being explored. In my opinion, tracebacks should be its own meta. Why? Because it is a cross-generation mechanic. The point of these metas is to be a simulacrum of Link battles. With enough time and RBY cartridges you could assemble any team you want, but no amount of RBY cartridges will give you Amnesia Hypno. You need GSC. So I think there should be a space for people who want to play "pure" RBY, and not be absorbed by the people who want to play an RBY/GSC hybrid meta
Hypno transcending into OU be like
"my final message
tentacruel special drop
goodbye"
Gen 8: Wish Blissey is an amazing support Pokemon that was only available in a single event in Gen 3, not to mention the Knock Off and Toxic spam that isn't available on most mons in Gen 8.
Gen 1: What? You telling me that you have to bring a mon to a Johto and then back?? TF is a Johto?
DBZA Vegeta: "The f--k's a Johto?"
DBZA Gero: "Seriously, what the hell is Johto?!"
Tbf, every generation doesn't know about the future generations.
I think of all the things that encompass the ginormous bubble that is "Competitive Pokémon", this is probably the most _thing_ that never ever crossed my mind. Tradeback Moves are clearly a _thing_ and they always have been (in RBY), so I don't know why I never stopped to think "oh, this _thing_ sure would knock the socks off the Gen 1 metagame". Interisting. Goes to show how deep the roots of the _status quo_ of RBY go in my mind, damn.
Yeah, this community is very, very grassroots, and it shows. It's by far the most interesting part, in my opinion.
I might be tripping but i thought ginormous was spelled way differently bruh i need to get off the weed 😭
@gamer mario To be fair, ginormous isn't even an actual word, so you can spell it however you'd like.
Tradebacks ban is such a weird one considering that Pokémon Yellow changed movesets and added TM moves. It seems a very bizzare choice made by a small group of people that stucked due to inertia. I remember reading all about Tradebacks back in the day and how cool it was to use those new moves when I played Stadium 1 and seeing those red fonts.
Interesting, what moves/pokemon did yellow introduce?
@@tomaszubiri4588Charizard learns Fly. Nidoran learns Double Kick. There’s a few others.
@@tomaszubiri4588 It's mostly a few additions to level up sets to make Pokemon more reasonable without TMs and placing moves at more reasonable levels. Things like Mankey and Scyther getting actual same-type moves on the list (low kick and wing attack respectively) and the Nidos getting Double Kick at 12 instead of 43. Probably the most notable is Pickachu gets Thunderbolt via level up.
@@tomaszubiri4588 pikachu learns thunderbolt at level 26 in yellow
In red/blue the only offencive electric move it learns (other than thundershock) is thunder at level 43.
@@EpslionBear raichu didnt get tbolt either? Might be impactful, but then again, pre stadium raichu didnt get surf either
Came here from big yellow 🎉
Same that's crazy
@@BigYellowSilly wow, you too? This Big Yellow guy seems to be sending a lot of people here.
I also that thing you said!
Big yellow cretin here 💛
@@BigYellowSilly me too!
Big Yellow sent me here! This channel is underrated and I'm glad you got the boost!
Thank you so much!!
RBY Persian with Hypnosis and Amnesia sounds pretty F'd up and evil.
It is!
Amensia isn’t that good of a move on Persian but Hypnosis ….Jesus Christ !!! You better paralyzed that cat real quick
Yeah, I have no idea why tradebacks would be banned, that's crazy--
*Snorlax gets a sleeping move*
....
....crazy that people think tradebacks should be legal, that's messed up
The easy answer to this is just ban event move tradebacks. That way nobody else gets Lovely Kiss, but breeding moves are still okay. Nobody can get those moves anymore without cheats, so it shouldn't matter.
Okay so I just looked back and saw how many of these important moves do some from these events. Like Hypno doesn't get Amnesia naturally to my great surprise. So maybe just ban tradeback Lovely Kiss specifically. Or even just Snorlax Lovely Kiss.
@@maninthetrenchcoat5603 You also wouldn't get to dunk on Slowbro with the majesty that is Petal Dance Jynx...
I consider the tradebacks of gen 2 to be gen 1's "expansion pack" of sorts similar to for example how there are new move tutors in emerald, platinum, hgss, bw2, oras and usum,. The issue is that unlike all those other updates it was done sort of post generation since they reworked alot for gen 2 despite it also functioning like a phuesdo second set of games to gen 1 similar to how gens 3 and four have two starting games, a premium game and then another set of games.
What is of note is that there are plenty of gens with changes this big introduced in later games in the gen but we dont have formats for their legacy versions.
And no I am not saying make gen 1 ou become transfers to be clear but to consider the idea of mid generation formats as a whole
Under that perspective, I wonder if one day tradebacks might become the "standard" format, and pure Gen 1 the "side" format.
It's interesting how tradebacks are allowed in terms of DVs, but not moves.
Due to the way gen 1 RNG works, certain combinations of DVs are impossible. Most notably, 15/15/15/15 is unobtainable legitimately in RBY. However, you can get them in GSC and trade it back.
It makes sense since having 1 less of a DV is less impactful than moves, even though on a fundamental level they're the same. Plus, early simulators may not have known about the impossible combinations, or decided that it wasn't worth the effort to code in a check.
I assume this is because moves are transparent and DVs are opaque, so you would have no way of knowing whether the DVs are from a tradeback or not. Enforceability is a huge factor in rule making, pokemon being no exeception.
So Gen 1 tradebacks is a relatively niche metagame that's primary feature and draw is a strong bulky psychic type that gets great coverage and uses Amnesia to boost up and sweep?
Ubers lite, then. Sounds awesome.
0.2 seconds after i found out scyther can finally other moves outside of normal moves and the pathetic wing attack: scyther in gen 1 ou here i come!
Does scythed get anything better from gen ii tradebacks? Scyther was bad in gen ii too
@@gamingwhilebroken2355 some notable ones are counter, headbutt, light screen (but not reflect) , and that's pretty much it for "useful" , wing attack (already there) only gets to 52 base power after STAB. Scyther and all bug pokemon basically had nothing in gen 1 and 2 due to them purposely designed as early-game help. Even Venomoth out-performs Scyther in both gens...Pinsir has better type coverage with Submission and in tradebacks can learn rock THROW. Rage could be useful to some due to it raising attack in gen 1
Ended up watching the whole RBY Bytes playlist after this one. The entertaining visuals go so well with the insightful commentary. Great stuff all around.
Thank you, thank you!
It's a litle disappointing to me that old traditions that people just simply didn't bother to move on from that made Tradebacks not allowed in Gen 1 OU, but at least it has its own meta. I'd love to learn more about that meta.
Interesting analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
It's sad, but makes sense...there were so few resources for Tradebacks back then, it was sort of considered to be "black magic". Without any resource to use for validation etc I can see why it was put down.
@@PlaguevonKarma If the only concern was validation, seems hypocritical; I'd say that DVs & stuff like Event Pokemon moves are more or less the same difficulty to verify, simulator or not. "Yeah, I totally got 1 of these Pokemon Center Pokemon! ....What, you traded your Hypno to Gen 1 from Gen 2? Stop lying."
Thanks for the answer nonetheless.
@@sagacious03 Pretty sure the validation issue is people not knowing what moves are legal, not that they think you obtained the pokemon "legitimately." People may not have known that/how Snorlax learns sweet kiss. If someone brings an explosion Tauros your first assumption is that they're cheating, not that there's a niche mechanic you didn't know about.
I always thought of trade back moves as giving the Pokémon a more updated moveset. Even in Just RBY yellow version added more possible TM moves to some Pokémon. If the game lets you do it it should be legal.
congratulations you just got the Big Yellow Bump
I remember trading back my Pidgey to see if it could use tackle.
Falling deeper into the RBY rabbit hole lets gooo
I love the idea of trade backs in newer gens. I like having my brave curse Scizor as well as my tangrowth with curse for fun niche sets. I also like having a Tyranitaur with dynamic punch for lols.
Do you think there is any potential trade back stuff in newer gens that could be changing for a mon’s moveset? For example a mega lopunny with tripple axel, or venasaur with weatherball.
It would cause a lot of broken stuff to appear for sure! Swords Dance Dodrio coming down even to GSC would be huge!
Triple Axel only exists in Gen 8, so Mega Lopunny can’t ever use the move in an actual game
@@zememerr2329 I mean to save it for potential future games
If you could get a Gen 7 Cloyster to Gen 1 you could have Twineedle funnily enough. Which in theory could have happened if Gen 1 VC was allowed to trade with Gen 7 :P
This has actually come up for me recently, since me and my friends have been playing little tournaments together with our own rules - the important one here is it uses pokemon and movesets up to gen 8, but also allows megas. Our next tourney is in doubles, and I wanted to use Mega Kangaskhan and - oh. *Oh*, it learns rock slide in SwSh. Flinch chance, attacks both opponents, applied twice... imagine this in gen 6, when Mega Kanga was at its peak.
As said, I'm not a doubles expert, but I don't think this would have gone unnoticed if it were a possibility haha. I also haven't been able to test it yet so it's just a theoretical thing. Still, this idea has been clawing around my head like a tiny creature and I'm very interested to see if it works
Very random fun fact.
Wheezing(via Tradebacks), is the ONLY Pokemon in Gen 1 who can learn Psywave, but NOT Psychic. Meaning(combined with his extremely shallow movepool in Gen 1) he might be the ONLY case, ever, where Psywave is even worth considering adding to the moveset. And even then, I'm not certain, as he does get Psybeam(which while not definitely better than Psywave, it is more consistent at the cost of lower max power and using his worse special) and you also have Fire Blast as a potential 4th move. But the fact it's even a 'maybe' option is funny to me, because there is no other meta anywhere where Psywave is an option that makes sense.
I always thought it was incredibly ridiculous that showdown sets gen 1 at max stats but doesn't allow trade back moves.
It's like gen 1's true metagame is being memoryholed.
What? Gen 1 had max stats, that's how Stat Exp worked prior to the introduction of EVs. Like, stats worked completely differently.
@@PlaguevonKarma Iv's included.
In gen one they were called DV's
Thanks for adding captions. I remember being thrilled I could use Amnesia pokemon in Pokemon Stadium, but I mainly remember trying it in Little Cup with Tangela and Nidoran-M hehe.
tradeback ice punch electabuzz and Tpunch magmar are fun to use in pokemon rby even in a solo playthrough
gengar seems quite good in tradebacks ou with boltbeam coverage
The sheer fact that THIS is banned, while stuff like Wish Blissey wasn’t, shows it was a dumb idea made without hindsight in 2001 that really should have been course corrected ages ago.
Yo, cool video about a subject I didn’t know I’d find interesting, I’ll definitely be sticking around to see more.
Thank you! Drop by my Discord server for updates n stuff!
These videos are super well made!
Came here from Big Yellow, love this Pokémon scene, subscribed
I LEGIT thought that the dude screaming "No no no no" was Patrick, I never knew it was from something else
The biggest thing I've learned making this video is I live in a generation that's forgot Filthy Frank...
@@PlaguevonKarma LOL 😭
For once I actually kinda side with the grassroots side of things. (Going to use JP release dates for explanations.)
Taking Generation 3 as an example you essentially have 5 patches.
3.0 Ruby & Sapphire, released 21/11/2002
3.1 Ruby, Sapphire and Colosseum, released 21/11/2003
3.2 R, S, Colo and FR, LG, released 29/01/2004
3.3 R, S, Colo, FR, LG and Emerald, released 16/07/2004
3.4 R, S, Colo, FR, LG, E and XD, released 04/08/2005
For Generation 1 however you essentially have 4 patches.
1.0 Red & Green, released 27/02/1996
1.1 Red, Green and Blue, released 15/10/1996
1.2 R, G, B and Yellow, released 12/09/1998
1.3 R, G, B, Y and Stadium, released 30/04/1999
For Generation 2 you get just 2 patches.
2.0 Gold & Silver, released 21/11/1999
2.1 G, S and Crystal & Stadium 2, both released 14/12/2000
The tradeback moves are gen 2 moves in gen 1. It's the only gen you can get moves "from the future", for example you can not get Gen 5 moves into a Gen 4 game, even if the move was something like Ice Beam. Also considering just how different many of the moves function between 1 and 2, when Hypno was given Amnesia in Gen 2, it was given a move that is +2 SpD, not +2 SpD AND +2 SpA. Aerodactyl is an unfortunate loser here.
In theory, these days you could have previous gens battle and trade with current gens. Especially on the Switch, for a Gen 8 vs Gen 9 battle, you would set it up so that the Gen 8 game can temporarily download the extra Pokémon data from Gen 9 and dump it when finished. Kinda would be unfair on the Gen 8 player though.
Downloading data and then dumping it with every trade would be horribly inefficient. However, the newer games have so much memory that adding new pokemon to it would be very easy. There aren't really any major software or hardware limitations
@@gabrielfonseca1642 Given that modern games all seem to use the same set of animations anyway (come on, game freak), it would be relatively easy to just port the new mons and add the data in an update to allow you to battle with future titles.
They probably wouldn't bother, though, since they want people to buy the new games.
@@ENCHANTMEN_ That's what I was getting at. Gen 8 games could have the same features as gen 9, no need to download the data every time when you can just patch the game once
You're not counting events in any of that, though. Several events add moves to Pokemon and several of those moves completely changed how Pokemon were played.
I love RBY, sometimes I feel like tradebacks might breathe some new life into the game.. idk regardless your content is great!
The thing is, no one in the community sees a need for new life being breathed into the game. It has constantly changed with big discoveries for decades.
I love this kinda of niche pokemon history!
Ngl it would be fun to see a trade backs development with it being on PS for a bit, for something like a OM of the month
It has happened before!
You know who else gets the elemental punches? Alakazam
Yep! But it's not as good as you'd expect! Alakazam has issues fitting two punches, as Psychic, Thunder Wave, and Recover are so important. If you drop Seismic Toss, it ends up having to pick between losing to Starmie, Slowbro, and Vaporeon, or losing to Exeggutor, etc. It becomes much better in some matchups, but very easily walled in others.
This is by far the most positive video about Hypno. I just hate how just hate it received.
I've considered making a dedicated video about how it really isn't what it's cracked up to be. It has trouble competing with Slowbro these days!
@@PlaguevonKarma I really want people to have a better view on the Hypno line.
Maybe if we do, Gamefreak will FINALLY give it an evolution in newer gens!
Ohhh, if you're on about the hate it got outside of Tradebacks, that's another story.
I think Hypno largely deserves the controversy it's received. Its appearance in FRLG was kind of disgusting, to be honest, it's just an elaborate paedophile "joke". It's very hard for Hypno to escape those connotations, no matter how the Berry Forest event and/or FireRed Pokedex entry are interpreted. It wasn't controversial prior to FRLG in the west because they didn't decide to make it what it is now. What makes it worse is the FireRed entry was reused in Pokemon X.
thing i never understand is how event moves can be put onto the virtual console versions of the games.
I don't touch showdown, or any of the online simulators, except for the trading card game, but sometimes i just want someone to fight, to see if my team is up to scratch, and i take every advantage i can get.
with 2 3ds consoles i can trade between a gen 1 and gen 2 game to give pokemon like alakazam much needed coverage in elemental punch moves, and having gengar with ice punch is a god send.
I don't play pokemon anymore but I do enjoy hearing about these topics in competitive scenes, thoroughly enjoyed this video and also very based design.
These are very good points, but also I feel like tradebacks for the other tiers would be super fun
From my very limited reading on the subject matter, gen2 does not appear to fix the cap of DVs. I remember there being a thread on this but, like, are you implying that RBY OU has an actual cap on DVs?
It's...sort of a cap, but not quite. The RNG is broken because it bases its DVs on encounter density among other things. So it's not a hardcoded cap, but in practice that's what happens. You cannot get all-15s with Pokemon encountered randomly.
@@PlaguevonKarma Cherry is asking what I was about to clarify to you. The main way this meta is played, via Pokemon Showdown, does not have the limit the game does. Every single Pokemon can run any DVS in gen 1 despite what is legally possible without tradebacks. In fact, this RNG problem effects gens 3 and 4 for non bred Pokemon, but showdown also does not implement those restrictions.
For the record, I think this is bad and should be fixed. The sim has been straying ever further away from what the actual game does and is.
looking at the tradeback clause at 2:27, it only specifies that tradeback moves are banned, not the tradebacked pokemon by themselves. So, semantics loophole is in play there
Big yellow sent me
Came here from Big Yellow and I've been wanting a video on this subject for a long time. Here's my issue with the whole subject: I'm fine with RBY OU banning tradebacks... but just make Tradebacks its own metagame. Like, just... make it its own thing. Why just kill off an interesting and unique metagame? So sad.
Oh sorry, I really should have watched the whole video before commenting lol. I'm glad it's finding its resurgence! I'd be very interested in watching a tournament featuring it!
July 10th, be there!
www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rby-grand-slam-i-introduction.3703071/
The RBY Discord in the description also has a channel for tradebacks! Always love seeing people who want to develop it.
I did wonder about those tradebacks earlier today.
I am satisfied with this answer.
I just hit me that RBY stands for Red, Blue, and Yellow xD
Given I was introduced to this channel by Big Yellow, I can't help but draw a connection between Tradebacks and a topic he brought up, Glitchmons and Hybrid Glitchmons.
Thus, I'd be kind of interested, despite not being active in Gen 1's meta whatsoever, to potentially see the introduction of perhaps a subcategory of Tradeback Mons (which I have to assume would shake up the Meta enough to warrant its own category), a sort of balanced Anything Goes tier, which would introduce both Tradebacks and Hybrid Glitchmon movesets, and a true anything goes with just about anything Gen 1 can have.
Sorry if I'm sounding ignorant here.
Tradebacks OU is its own tier, which I went over near the end of the video! It's a very interesting metagame which has seen exploration by people like myself.
You can find more information on it here;
www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rby-tradebacks-ou-exploration-discussion-thread.3683269/
There is also a tournament coming up next month, if you're interested in playing it for yourself;
www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rby-grand-slam-i-introduction.3703071/post-9240258
A glitchmons tier has been theorised many times, but difficulties in simulation as a result of the sheer scope has made it difficult to play.
Honestly the tradebacks meta does not look as fun to me, maybe I'm biased since I really like RBY but part of why I like RBY is its limited. You can afford to make more mistakes and take risks to play mental games more than later gens. Having to guess which Pokemon is their sleeper out of a much wider pool and having to deal with several Amnesia mons that arent Slowbro would kind of ruin that.
a really good and informative video! might i just say though that the sound effects you use are a bit high in volume compared to the volume of your voice and the bgm
I think maybe bringing them to Stadium would be a neat idea. Right now there's like no reason to play stadium over console gen 1. Also I kinda want to see how broken Alakazam would be.
There are plenty of reasons to play Stadium over regular RBY! The mechanical changes make for a very different tier, one that's more familiar to newer gen players for sure. Exeggutor alone runs a completely different set because of how Rest's buffs and Sleep Powder's massive nerfs.
@@PlaguevonKarma I said it because of feeling too similar to gen 2 in a lot of ways despite the mechanical differences. Team preview is definitely neat but it isn't a deal breaker.
I DIDN'T come here through Big Yellow, been here for a while.
Mhm! Your content is interesting too! Love amiibos.
One question I've never found the answer to is, are Pokemon in GSC OU allowed to use moves they can only receive by way of being traded to/from RBY (most likely way being TMs, since those completely changed between gens)?
Yes, GSC can use "tradeforwards". It's crucial for the metagame; for example, Snorlax actively uses Double-Edge to give it its formidable offence. Without "tradeforwards", GSC is frankly almost unplayable. Smogon essentially locks generations after the next release arrives.
@@PlaguevonKarma wow, that was fast. Thank you so much!
1:30 there's a black box around the electricity gif
Regardless, Gud video
Oh yeah, I only got good at greenscreening recently! Hate looking back on some of this LOL
In light of the works being made by a user named Goppier, have you ever looked into the effects his best known work involving a link device would have on a subsequent kind of GSC tradeback & in turn the effects on RBY tradeback (as well as another kind of it to come out for Gen 8 from Gen 9)?
It doesn't interest me much personally, but one notable thing I can think of is Rock Slide Aerodactyl.
Welp, one guess who sent me here. This is really cool! Had no idea this was even a thing really.
I have to agree with keeping Tradebacks and non-Tradebacks in entirely separate pens. Tradeback just allows certain tools to spread far beyond what they should.
Flareon always sucked when its siblings were OU for a long time like vaporeon lol
3 ous? Well there are actually 4 ous! Regular ou, tradebacks, stadium and the one you forgot Japanese ou! Seriously how many ous can 1 gen have? Next thing you know they'll find out submission is actually 100 bp and 100% acc in the Brazilian version or something and they'll make another version of ou because of that huge change
In the meme, Punisher legit sounds like Patrick Star.
Miss your videos, PVK.
Also fun
Gen 1 tradebacks, no NYPC
GEN 1 Tradebacks Stadium
Stadium 2 battle from rby carts. Basically gen 1 pokemon with gen 2 rules.
All of these were somewhat popular prior to 2003...
Not as fun: pure RB . None of the move updates from Yellow or later allowed.
Also fun, but less justifiable
Gen 3 tradebacks:
All moves a pokemon learns in gen 3 are also legal.
This could be expanded to any gen, but I've never seen anyone actually play this since gen 3 was current.
Rhydon when facing a weakned tauros in tradebacks: muhahahah you cannot ohko me with bllizard tauros! Unless you crit which sucks don't do that. Tauros: who said I had billzard? Rhydon: nani? Gets deleted out of existence by surf.
exeggutor: Hi
I have to say, I definitely agree with banning tradebacks in RBY OU. It just doesn't really feel like the intended way of playing gen 1. You mentioned how common trade forwards are in future gens, but I don't really think that any other gens have anything that can really be considered equivalent to tradebacks in RBY, something introduced in a future gen that affected the meta of the previous one.
It does shake up a lot of things though . I honestly love how Alakazam can now check Slowbro or Exeggutor with Ice Punch and Thunderpunch respectively and how Hypno just becomes bonkers with Amensia
I don't think there was an "intended" way of playing the PVP metagame back in 1996.
Idea: Super Tradebacks
You can only use Pokemon that have been traded all the way from the latest possible generation back to gen 1. No moves can be changed along the way, except the obvious purging of glitch moves
A Dodrio wrote this comment.
My dudes, if Tradebacks was the standard for Gen 1, Snorlax would be equally dominant in both of the old generations.
I would love to see RBY tradebacks as its own category to play. I don't see why not, it opens up a new realm of possibilities for a lot of Pokemon to shine. Why not shake up a meta that hasn't really changed too much over the last 20 years? Or just create an entirely different meta?
There is one! In fact, there's a tournament going on on Smogon right now!
I love playing Stadium with tradebacks with friends.
as we see it, previous gen moves are allowed (except gen 9 since gamefreak fucked that over for no reason) then tradeback moves are fair game too
edit: Also perfect 15 DVs arent possible without gen 2 so if you can use their DV spreads you can use their moves
So tradebacks are illegal in gen 1 for much the same reason as Snorlax is legal in gen 2 OU?
Yes
"Hypno is very important in RBY UU" oh no no no no no
You forgot to mention that Exeggutor gets Razor leaf in tradebacks
pokemondb.net/pokedex/exeggutor/moves/2
It doesn't
Honestly I love the idea
I recommend redoing audio takes where you feel the clarity of your words is weaker. It makes the video just nicer to listen to alongside the good quality content in the video.
Nonetheless, have my sub good sir xD
I do rerecord them, is the thing. My accent gets very thick at times...
45 years? I knew time files but not this fast
Watching this video, I’m not even sure the PCNY Gift eggs should be allowed. We understand almost nothing about their generation method / possible legality in so far as DVs go.
They’re generated by the distribution hardware, not the gameboy. Idk.
Also you can’t use those moves on Japanese metas right? And Japanese metas would have other moves that’re illegal for English users?
This debate has been had by many people in the past. RBY follows GSC's legality for them.
How it works is this: They're allowed, with any possible DVs.
You're right in that we don't know their DV distribution, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be disallowed. From a utilitarian perspective, it means they should be allowed as-is, pending the correct DVs being found as time goes on. People rarely contest that there shouldn't be the correct DVs, we just don't know what they are, so we allow any as would be normal for other Pokemon. This allows for the metagame to develop with the moves existing in general, which is healthier long-term than banning for sovereignty reasons. DVs don't affect *much* overall. It's notable that it's been over 20 years since these events and we still don't have a sample of the hardware, and chances are, it's probably lost to time. Ergo, banning them now would probably ban them forever.
When it comes to Japanese metagames, you're also correct, and there are Japan-only events that are also experiencing the "vice versa" matter. Dragon Rage Magikarp for RBY and Absorb Phanpy for GSC, for example. These exist in their Japanese formats without PCNY and so on.
Pokemon legality is complicated, but in general, Gens 1-2 allow as much as possible within what is reasonable.
@@PlaguevonKarma Totally valid and I appreciate the in-depth answer. It's just something I end up thinking about a lot since that's sorta my whole deal.
I don't play a ton of gen 1 so it's not like my opinion is super well informed.
At least Aerodactly sould be allowed whit Tradebacks.
I don’t believe tadebacks are banned just because of a legacy decision. It’s not strictly a gen 1 format once you involve the 2nd generation to get specific moves.
Me, confused, having seen "tradebacks OU" on the meta list for like, at least a couple years now: 👁👄👁
Could be misremembering but I swear I've seen tradebacks being it's own meta for a WHILE? Or maybe it was just in development for a long time?
It's been its own meta forever, it's just rarely played due to a lack of significant difference to the main meta, and little tournament support
Love this. I WAN AG TIER IN GEN 1
Join the RBY Discord! There's been speculation on it before!
discord.gg/XrXakc9MXA
Nice video
2:47 no they weren't. I spent my whole childhood in RSBot and GSBot T_T
I didn't mean it in respect to them being completely irrelevant, just less impactful in terms of the overall history of the franchise, at least from the information I know with other users who spent time on there.
Good content but having the footage shrunk in the corner to make room for the avatar seems a bit counterproductive at least for a mobile viewer.
Sort of reminds me of those channels that upload copyrighted tv shows and movies but restrict them to the corner of the video to dodge automatic content ID lol
It's hardly the corner...I've been keeping it about half and half.
I have been working on increasing size overall in later videos, specifically the ones that are coming out soon.
What counters Psychic/Ice Punch / Thunder Punch Alakazam
Opposing Psychic-types and, to an extent, Chansey. Without Seismic Toss it's a lot more vulnerable than it looks. It also has to drop Thunder Wave, so Tauros can afford to trade a hit with it.
Also, hypno could set up in its face
What are checks and counters to Amensia Hypno?
It's mainly about forcing it to Rest, if it's running it. Sometimes it doesn't, wherein it's usually about outliving it. Chansey and Alakazam are my go-tos, as they don't have any relevant weaknesses and can usually recover off the damage. In this case, both should have Seismic Toss. Once it's forced to Rest, bring in Snorlax and it's usually forced out, as a paraslam once it wakes up is curtains.
An okay. I though either Slowbro, Exeggutor, and opposing Hypno would have worked as well
Tauros in gen 1 tradebacks: I used to rule the world
Oh nah he absolutely still does
@@PlaguevonKarma yeah that bull will never be bad in any rby format
WELSH PERSON!!!!!! FINALLY
Diolch!
I'm shocked how many people say things like "it would completely change this tier that's been the same for decades!" Like it's a bad thing. I'm not interested in playing a meta game that never changes and it constantly the same
I mean, that's your right. The thing is, it's got a massive amount of history and *does* change. But this is not the right way to change it: this change isn't organic, it's forced for the sake of "correctness" rather than "rightness".
@@PlaguevonKarma The thing that bothers me most is that what they decide to keep or don't keep from what's actually on the cartridge is arbitrary. The 1/256 miss chance on 100% accurate moves is known to be a glitch and unintended, but it's kept on Showdown "because it's in the real games" meanwhile trade backs aren't in standard play despite being on the real games "because we don't want them"
Where's the line? What's different aside from personal preference?
It's not just "because we don't want them," this is a terrible strawman. Did you even watch the video? It's because the game evolved that way, and the community and history that formed around it means that allowing Tradebacks to come to the forefront is actually a bit complicated. Why throw away over 20 years of famous battles that players use to build experience for the sake of what's "correct"? This isn't a black-and-white thing. It's upheaving a metagame that is still developing to this very day, a metagame that many people come and enjoy, for the sake of cynicism. The playerbase has been polled on this numerous times over the years and there has been consistently less interest in Tradebacks compared to other tiering decisions, such as addressing desyncs or how Sleep/Freeze Clause are handled than this, and even then, support is very low. Why? Because people like things how they are. What do you actually achieve by making a change nobody wants? All you do is divide a community that is - as I said in my video - very, very fragile.
The line has been very clear for many years. Simulate Gen 1, and if it causes a desync, force a 1/256 miss. It is very simple and very straightforward.
The 1/256 accuracy bit being a glitch isn't actually as clear-cut as you think, mind you! Check Stadium - it didn't fix the glitch, it instead made it double roll. That's a whole other video I want to make, though. It's kind of funny that you harp on about what's "intended" when Tradebacks themselves have less evidence for being "intended" than this.
Is gen 2 to gen 1 the only tradeback that can happen in pokemon?
Naturally, yes, but there are mods and stuff that can allow miracles like ADV -> GSC. These are generally not supported due to not being intended or official, though.
not anymore, SV -> SS/BDSP is now possible though it barely effects anything
Tradeback rby should be a gen2 option
This feels like a 'wink wink nudge nudge' effort to encourage a pro-tradeback revolution and throw off the old guard. Of course, you DEFINITELY don't intend that. Definitely not.
Yeah the community can be really stuck in it's ways. Through Gen 4-6 there was an extremely negative attitude to VGC because Smogon got in the door first and people were used to singles, you got tossed under the bus for preferring it even though it was official. That's very gradually softened, but it's a good example.
(This is ignoring the fact there was a proto-VGC format active in late Gen 3 and early Gen 4 for a couple of tournaments that had most of the same rules and was also doubles. Gamefreak has seemingly considered Double Battles the 'professional' format since they were introduced in Gen 3 despite what the fandom thinks.)
Here from Big Yellow
Nice oc
She is a menace to society
@@PlaguevonKarma again, nice hahahah
RBY retcon tier
Tradebacks requires you to have a theoretical RBY and GSC cartridges, as opposed to just theoretical RBY cartridges. Thats why it should be its own meta.
no fun allowed by people who don't like change
Lol what
Huh, hello there.
hi
@@PlaguevonKarma I'll probably have to watch the video again cause you just hit me with a pile of bricks of information, maybe I'll sub if I understand the video. Though if I don't, then no hard feelings, right milady?
@@PlaguevonKarma So, I looked over things and now I understand everything. Relatively, there's still a bit of me not understanding the culture of competitive Pokemon, because if you were to take a look at my channel and it's playlists and subscriptions you will certainly see kind of one of the biggest personal cultural bubble. Of course, if you can explain to me why a Gentleman's Rule is backwards and just show me much more of a more "well-defined image" of just how "grassroots" the kind of people that ran these types of things are like, then maybe I can actually start piecing together each part of this video and probably create a historical image of what happened here, because what it sounds like is "some kids from way back when discovered this Tradeback device, used it, discovered incredible Pokemon like Aerodactyle and Snorlax as well as terrible Pokemon like Hypno, decided to ban it, argued with each other to set up a Gentleman's Rule, and the Gentleman's Rule isolated this mechanic off to it's own little 'OP' meta". Does this sound accurate? OH wait, I forgot about that ending part with it being relatively OK and not breaking everything because the players say they are fine! Oooooohhhh, well can I have a link to a battle showing Tradeback at it's most broken and at it's most balanced? Or should I just like, look it up myself? Yeah I'll just look it up, brb.
Well yes, the original rule was short-sighted and generally terrible. Everyone in the RBY Community knows that. But you can't just destroy a metagame that is quite literally as old as Pokemon itself.
But the metagameS it created allowed for two developed formats to exist, which is a beautiful thing.
its wild that tradebacks are banned mostly because of mons that the average player will never have gotten legitimately.
Huh? I mean, if you had both games, you had the mons. If you're on about the events, nobody talked about that in any thread that led to the ban - the thread that fired it off was Confuse Ray Starmie of all things...
@@PlaguevonKarma oh I see, I thought tradebacks were banned mostly because of Amnesia Hypno and Lovely Kiss Snorlax, both mons being events
The modern Smogon meta should legalize trade backs. RBY is just far too centralized and uninteresting as a result of it being really 3 spots for free.
It’s a throw and far less consistent not to have Chansey, Taurus and Snorlax on your team.
This is the best way to make it less centralized.
A centralized meta game is not necessarily bad. What we should want from a meta game is interesting gameplay. Centralization can lead to uninteresting gameplay, but just because centralization exists in a meta game doesn't mean it should automatically be eliminated, nor is it knowable if centralization can be eliminated. Attempts to fix a centralized meta game can just as easily cause new centralization. What if a metagame had 18 viable pokemon, but due to their roles formed only 3 viable teams? The mons might not be centralized but the teams are.
OU is still having big changes. Victreebell rose to OU, and Chansey is no longer considered a mandatory pick (although it is still definitively the 3rd best Mon in the tier). Plus there are other RBY metagames that are still being explored.
In my opinion, tracebacks should be its own meta. Why? Because it is a cross-generation mechanic. The point of these metas is to be a simulacrum of Link battles. With enough time and RBY cartridges you could assemble any team you want, but no amount of RBY cartridges will give you Amnesia Hypno. You need GSC. So I think there should be a space for people who want to play "pure" RBY, and not be absorbed by the people who want to play an RBY/GSC hybrid meta
What have I just watched...?
I miss some proper explanation between topics...